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Vedar
09-03-2011, 17:53
I'm trying to think where they will end up on the power meter.

I'll go over the Three armies I play.

Daemons-Scared like little girls. Daemons are already one of the least played 40K armies and in my opinion are overcosted, to random and suffer from a good unit/bad unit codex. While it is possible to do well with them if your big units come on turn 5 you are out of luck. Grey Knights get extra special Daemon stomping power and unlike the last codex are not even nice enough to give Daemons a little boost. I'm not raising the white flag yet, but I'm making sure I have enough flag poles and sheets.

Chaos Space Marines. Are were ready for this one again?.... Is the CSM Daemon prince a daemon? With STR10 daemon instakill weapons in play a dreadknight can drop a Daemon prince with one punch. GW would be smart to FAQ this quick because right now you can't prove this either way and don't try to use logic in this game, it just makes you look silly. The Chaos Space Marine codex is starting to show it age. Back in 2007 the CSM codex was de-fanged with all backlash over the 3.5 codex. Everything was toned down, everything special was removed, you just got a single stat bump or USR. Against Grey Knights full of special everything CSM are in for an uphill battle. Right now it seems advantage GK.

Eldar-Probably the best out of my three armies to face GK. Volume firepower Eldar can do. With GK being an expensive point army to field, blade storming and scatter lasers should take there toll. Fire Dragons handle heavy armor. A Fire Prism can keep the terminator on their toes. The main problem will be the 2-3 Dreadknights. A 2+/4++ MC with a bunch of shooting will be hard to take down. The Avatar is treated as a Daemon so that is bad news for him. EML don't do much for 2+ armor and BL and PL are expensive and hard to come by. Your best bet looks to be ignore the DK if no Firedragon unit is avaiable to toast him and stay meched. Eldrad or farseer with runes of warding are a must. Jetbike Counsil might be an option for taking down a DK as wounding on a 2+ is fun. Eldar stand a good chance against the GK.

Feel free to post how the armies you play stack up.

Bunnahabhain
09-03-2011, 18:00
Guard love facing expensive marines. They die just like cheap ones, but there are fewer of them. Some of the odd builds might be a different issue though, we'll see.
---------------------
They pay to be very good in CC- Guard doesn't really care about the difference between good and very good here.

They pay for their anti psyker stuff- good thing our psykers aren't important

They pay to deal with ++ saves. ++ saves? The only ones Guard care about getting are cover saves.
-----------------------
Therefore, I'd say probably not as high as Guard.;)

Mannimarco
09-03-2011, 18:03
Mono Nurgle Daemons (with addded FW): yeah Im not keen on the ideo of GKs, SW with that power already hurt my army a great deal. Still not going to shelf the army though, I will continue to play them win or lose.

Mono Death Guard (with even more FW!): Yes a daemon prince is a daemon, always has been always will be. Ive already come to terms with most of todays books being "kinnda like CSM +1" so Im not phased by the GKs here, it will be an uphill battle but isnt it always when you play against any newer marine dex with the CSM one?

Servants of Decay (FW vraksian list from SoV3): Not phased in the slightest, my army is already incredibly anti MEQ and should require only minimum tweaking to keep up with the newest marine dex.

tuebor
09-03-2011, 18:04
The only thing that really scares my Guard is the Vindicare having an actually reasonable chance of sniping my Commissars just before my power weapon blobs get assaulted. Apart from that there's not much there that really concerns me.

Leogun_91
09-03-2011, 18:04
Daemons- I will not play Grey Knights and any intrest in ever going to a 40k tournament again has been troughly trashed by the fact that they can wizard away all my special rules (chaos gifts only so I get to keep a few special rules but the few he can't remove are hardly worth mentioning). Even before the new codex I didn't wish to play daemonhunters, now I will refuse to waste a few hours on giving my painted and loved models a painful death (of varying speed depending on the cruelty and luck of my opponent).

Monodominant
09-03-2011, 18:19
Really? You refused to play vs the old codex DH in tournament setting? Why? Because they were too easy for you?

You were annoyed that you would drop 3 flamers of Tzeentch on your first turn and wipe out a unit worth 250 points?

dingareth
09-03-2011, 18:19
Wow, really? Yeah, they've got a bunch of special rules, but if there's one army that Demons excel against it's low model count MEQ armies... Exactly what Grey Knights will be. Give it a go against them at least.

Bunnahabhain
09-03-2011, 18:24
The only thing that really scares my Guard is the Vindicare having an actually reasonable chance of sniping my Commissars just before my power weapon blobs get assaulted. Apart from that there's not much there that really concerns me.

There are a few useful tactics for dealing with snipers, drawn from real life armies not noted for their subtlety.

1) Identify the terrain feature they are in. Shell it, repeat unit no sniper or terrain feature remains.

2) Send a company to take the terrain feature they are in. Ignore a few casulties on the way over. Mob sniper to death at close range

Excessus
09-03-2011, 18:26
What counts as a daemon for the GKs? Does Daemon Princes count even though the only thing that makes them daemons are their names?

Alaitoc
09-03-2011, 18:30
Daemons- I will not play Grey Knights and any intrest in ever going to a 40k tournament again has been troughly trashed by the fact that they can wizard away all my special rules (chaos gifts only so I get to keep a few special rules but the few he can't remove are hardly worth mentioning). Even before the new codex I didn't wish to play daemonhunters, now I will refuse to waste a few hours on giving my painted and loved models a painful death (of varying speed depending on the cruelty and luck of my opponent).

I agree, what GW has made is just to force almost every daemon-player to stop playing against grey knights - if there's no boost for the daemons that is...

I don't think I'll play against them with my upcoming daemon- army, not without giving something back special rules wise... Like: "The grey knights only go after really powerful daemonic invasions, to represent this, all the daemonplayers units gain "(Insert whatever rule here)". The "normal" daemonic invasions in the Imperium is normally handled by the imperial guard or the space marines - often aided by an inquisitor."

Couldn't Mat Ward make something interesting out of the GK/Daemons rivalry instead of an InstaWin- button? We don't know for sure untill we try though - so we'll see how it ends...

Sarevok
09-03-2011, 18:31
What counts as a daemon for the GKs? Does Daemon Princes count even though the only thing that makes them daemons are their names?

It will probably be adressed in the codex.
The last Daemonhunter codex was very specific about what counted as a daemon.

tuebor
09-03-2011, 18:31
There are a few useful tactics for dealing with snipers, drawn from real life armies not noted for their subtlety.

1) Identify the terrain feature they are in. Shell it, repeat unit no sniper or terrain feature remains.

2) Send a company to take the terrain feature they are in. Ignore a few casulties on the way over. Mob sniper to death at close range

I'm not saying it's an insurmountable issue, I deal with Telion quite often, I'm just saying that it'll probably be the thing that concerns me most.

DuskRaider
09-03-2011, 18:33
I don't think my Daemons will be seeing the table against them. My Death Guard are unphased. 4+ squads of Plague Marines, 2 squads of deep striking Terminators, and Vindicators and / or Predator Annihilators will not flinch at Ward's newest word puking.

My Orks are quite excited, actually.

Korraz
09-03-2011, 18:35
It's sad that one of the most iconic matchups got killed.

As for me...
Blood Angels - I'll do what I always do. Drown everything in a torrent of attacks, slice and dice armor with power weapons and squish the hard stuff with Dreadnoughts.
Necrons - Well, I'm going to...who the **** am I kidding, I'll run away like a little bitch and hope for the turn clock to spare me a total massacre.

TheLaughingGod
09-03-2011, 18:50
Daemons are scared of them. Definitely.

DeeKay
09-03-2011, 19:00
As far as insightful fluff is concerned, any hope I had died when I learned Matt "7th Ed Daemons" Ward wrote the book.

As far as rules go, I'm sure that one or more of my CSM armies will give them a sound thrashing. 2++ saves? Who cares? Shoot them with anything with more than one shot. Weight of fire can (and most often will) bring down heavy targets. You really like fighting Daemons? Great, there are none in my lists because mine are poo against everybody!

I can almost understand why people will get bummed out by getting it handed to them by the new kids, but at the end of the day, it's just a game and in my eyes, they're just fresh meat!

With regards,
Dan.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-03-2011, 19:10
The last Daemonhunter codex was very specific about what counted as a daemon.That was kind of a disaster, actually. IIRC they missed something obvious, and additionally it very quickly went out of date.

ColShaw
09-03-2011, 19:34
I'm not afraid. For one thing, my anger and hate are always stronger than my fear. For another, if the GKs bring the Dreadknights and tooled-up Terminators, I'll outnumber them 7 or 8 to 1. If they bring hordes of henchmen instead, I'll STILL outnumber them.

The thought of Vindicares sniping out my Commissars does make me a little twitchy, but I'll learn to do useful things like deploying the blobs with Commies out of line of fire.

Bring on the silver pretty-boys. The Imperial Guard are ready to show them how the REAL defenders of the Imperium do things.

Captain Semper
09-03-2011, 19:41
I'm not afraid. For one thing, my anger and hate are always stronger than my fear

Welcome to the Dark side of the Force :evilgrin:

insectum7
09-03-2011, 19:56
Most of them are still just 3+ saves, and likely few in number. 2+ saves? Even fewer.

Nezalhualixtlan
09-03-2011, 20:17
I can't believe some of you would just flat out refuse to play them with Daemons, what are you afraid of that you might lose or lose bad? Every game, including your losses is an opportunity to learn, and even a Leafblower list could be handled.

Daemons can be challenging to play already but I suspect all that will be required when going up against GK will be a change in tactics or list, and that you'll still be able to create an all-comers list which fares fine against them.

Grimtuff
09-03-2011, 20:22
I can't believe some of you would just flat out refuse to play them with Daemons, what are you afraid of that you might lose or lose bad? Every game, including your losses is an opportunity to learn, and even a Leafblower list could be handled.

Daemons can be challenging to play already but I suspect all that will be required when going up against GK will be a change in tactics or list, and that you'll still be able to create an all-comers list which fares fine against them.

Because it will simply be an exercise in removing models, and thus no joy for the Daemon player?[/Devil's advocate]

I'll play GK with my Daemons as they are Skarbrand based so that neuters the GK's Preffered Enemy as every effectively gets this against me anyway. But I do have a sneaking suspiscion that playing GK with Daemons will simply be an exercise in futility and an utterly unenjoyable game.

The Laughing God
09-03-2011, 20:27
I think Daemon vs Grey Knight games just got a lot more fun. I can't wait to play against them.

bocaj
09-03-2011, 20:27
I'm a demon player hence I wont play them it would be just a waist of time due to not getting to use virtual any of the things which make my army fun, such as a bloodletter shrugging off a s8 hit in open ground and becoming worthy of Khorne.

Nezalhualixtlan
09-03-2011, 20:28
Because it will simply be an exercise in removing models, and thus no joy for the Daemon player?[/Devil's advocate]

I'll play GK with my Daemons as they are Skarbrand based so that neuters the GK's Preffered Enemy as every effectively gets this against me anyway. But I do have a sneaking suspiscion that playing GK with Daemons will simply be an exercise in futility and an utterly unenjoyable game.


I suspect it'll be challenging, but that cagey tacticians will still beat them more often than not, and on a fair match-up skill wise, it'll be a close game.

Grimtuff
09-03-2011, 20:35
I suspect it'll be challenging, but that cagey tacticians will still beat them more often than not, and on a fair match-up skill wise, it'll be a close game.

It will, close games are better anyway (not least because I managed a draw against IG today despite only having 1 Chosen left on the field :D) plus Gk's are still SM's and you only need about 2 or 3 Bloodletters to destroy a SM squad.

IAMNOTHERE
09-03-2011, 20:45
Well only one codex is actually built to destroy another codex. The clue's in the name and that's why many daemon players won't have much fun.

Personally I want to see how they play but feel I'll struggle to find an opponent.

loveless
09-03-2011, 20:53
The clue's in the name and that's why many daemon players won't have much fun.

It's not Daemonhunters anymore :p They're just more effective at that job >_>

I dunno, I'm moderately concerned about the GK - this is the first time I'm noticing potential power creep, and I'm usually very lenient about that stuff.

I need to go over the Codex before I make a judgment, but some of the stats mentioned are just nasty if they're not incredibly expensive.

Souleater
09-03-2011, 20:54
Dark Eldar: not too bothered.
Necron: oh dear.
Nids: may require some lateral thinking.

ColShaw
09-03-2011, 20:55
Welcome to the Dark side of the Force :evilgrin:

I actually have a Darth Vader conversion for my IG. And some white-armored Stormtroopers and AT-AT walkers. I've embraced the Dark Side. :evilgrin:

Minsc
09-03-2011, 21:20
Lets see;

My CSM are slightly afraid, but then, they're slightly afraid of all new codexes...so much for fearless. :rolleyes:
Icon System already sucked, and with Vindicares there won't be a point in taking anything with Icons in that matchup.
My psychic powers get even more shafted than they already are (I rarely use Lash), and I won't mention Daemon Princes or Greater/Lesser Daemons.
And as a CSM player myself, if anyone tries to argue that the 'Daemon Prince' isn't a Daemon, I'll give you an internet-punch in the face.

My Eldar are slightly annoyed at the Aegis affecting Doom, but that's pretty much it. Banshee's will still kill Grey Knights in close combat, and they die just as easy to shooting as regular marines.
My Autarch stares at the ruled for the Grand Master with great envy, and can't wait too shoot him in the face with his Fusion Gun.
All in all, I can only see my Eldar having problems vs Dreadkight spam.

My Chaos Daemons...well, I never actually continued to add anything to my Daemons except for a Lord of Change, a Daemon Prince (both used with my CSM) and some Horrors, Letters and Bearers...and I'm very happy I spent the money on adding to my CSM/Eldar armies instead.

New GK seems to be very good, but only time will tell if they will kick BA out of the Top3.

Edit: And to all the "complainers about DoC players complaining" - have you read the rules for Warpquake?
Do you realize that this essentially means that Daemons will play with a half army against an army, dedicated to killing them.

kaimarion
09-03-2011, 21:20
I haven't used my Daemons in a while but I'll probably whip them out so I can get a game against the new GK(no tailoring), it will probably(maybe not) be a one-sided battle but switching armies at the end of the game counters this problem.

Switching armies is really one of the easiest ways of balancing a match, that way if you or your opponents list is overpowered it makes things fair as you both get to use the OP army. This only works if you have enough time so is not possible for everyone but I highly recommend you try it as it is refreshing to try out new armies that you are unfamiliar with or haven't tried before.

Freman Bloodglaive
09-03-2011, 21:30
I play Space Wolves.

Finally, a challenge.

ihavetoomuchminis
09-03-2011, 21:43
Daemons were a poor played army, and now GK are there, it's gonna get worse. Good move GW....good move. Marketing FTW.

Sarevok
09-03-2011, 21:51
Who knows, Daemons may be able to beat GK, we'll need to see the final codex.

But I can say with certainty, win or lose, its certainly not fun when half the stuff that makes your army unique gets nerfed.

Daemon Gifts? lol Dreadknight
Eternal Warrior? lol Nemesis weapons
Deep Strike? lol Warp Quake

In additon to all the weapons specifically designed to kill you.

I guess some players may like the challenge, the heroic Daemonic underdogs vs the all-powerful all-conquering Grey Knights.

Schmapdi
09-03-2011, 21:56
To busy giggling at the silly-looking Dreadknight to be afraid.

totgeboren
09-03-2011, 21:57
I hope they make Codex: Space Marine Hunters, where every model has got a plasma gun, hit-and-run, if you break against them, you always count as having an enemy within 6" (no atsknf or combat tactics), deep strikers always count as going off-board. All suitably costed for playing against Guards, Tau or Orks.

A challenge is always fun, right? ;)

Well, my Traitor Guards are not really worried at all. My Orks will probably eat them alive. My Word Bearers, hmmm... My Lesser Daemons went from bad to worse, and my Greater Daemon tends to stay at home anyway. Possessed suck, so, well, nothing good got worse at least. They could probably give them a run for their money at least.

ihavetoomuchminis
09-03-2011, 21:59
The problem is not win or lose. As you said, the problem is in not having fun. If all the things that make your army unique get nerfed, or ignored....well...where's the fun? If, as other poster has said, a game vs. GK is an exercise of removing models, where's the fun? If the majority of the tricks you can do, wich you have paid for, are useless....where's the fun? It seems that daemons would be relegated at friendly games vs. non GK players. That doesn't kill the fun in collecting a daemon army, but it certainly is decreased.

Mozzamanx
09-03-2011, 21:59
My poor Daemons are quaking in their case, which is a shame because I love them for the hobby. As revenge, my Tau are putting on their justice-hats and flying out in a glorious burst of Plasma and Railguns.

I admit the Dreadknights give me the shakes, but thats more because it disrupts target-priority rather than an actual threat.

Venkh
09-03-2011, 22:20
I hope they make Codex: Space Marine Hunters,

They did!

The 3rd ed eldar and craftworld Eldar codex

Starcannon on every model
Wiping out whole squads in assault with your banshees/seer council
Ranger disruption table

Was there ever been an army more suited to wiping the floor with MEQ's?

We are now in the age of the Imperuim. It took them 5 editions but theyve finally managed to make the imperium as dominant on the table as they are in the fluff.

TheLaughingGod
09-03-2011, 22:22
I play Space Wolves.

Finally, a challenge.

I take it Dark Eldar haven't got to your local gaming store yet. Dark Eldar kind of mop the floor with Space Wolves.

ihavetoomuchminis
09-03-2011, 22:29
They did!

The 3rd ed eldar and craftworld Eldar codex

Starcannon on every model
Wiping out whole squads in assault with your banshees/seer council
Ranger disruption table

Was there ever been an army more suited to wiping the floor with MEQ's?

We are now in the age of the Imperuim. It took them 5 editions but theyve finally managed to make the imperium as dominant on the table as they are in the fluff.

yes, penalizing some players (who at the same time are costumers, and spend the same money as the other costumers) for not choosing the proper army is the way to go.:rolleyes:

Nurgling Chieftain
09-03-2011, 22:29
...mop the floor with Space Wolves.The shaggy, braided hair and beards are remarkably good for mopping. :D

Grimtuff
09-03-2011, 22:35
Daemon Gifts? lol Dreadknight


Dreadknight, say hello to Blessing of the Blood God*. "Jog on Dreadknight!" Says Skulltaker as he kills it in 1 hit.



*This of course depends entirely on how Dark Excommunication works. ;)

thanoson
09-03-2011, 22:43
As a daemon player I'm excited. I want to see how dangerous they can be. Had to promote a daemonette once to a herald because she killed 2 GK termies in hth in the same turn. In a 1 on 2 fight.

My bugs are also looking forward to the fight. I want to see what 20 toxin hormagants can do to the pretty Dreadknight.

Obrimos
09-03-2011, 22:53
I personally don't see a problem for demons if the battles will stay below 2000 pts. GK have lots of opportunities for anti-demon synergies within their army, so if they stay close together to profit from this synergy, just stay away, fan out and play objectives. If they decide to spread out, hit them with the appropriate units. That means Greater demons vs. anti-horde units, demonic cavalry against their shooty units and binding their dreadknights with expendable units.
You will, however, have to have a very well mixed army. One dimensional lists representing only one or two deities won't do I guess. You will need the best of everything to stand against the paladins.

The only thing I am afraid of at the moment are Stormravens and the guys that can teleport into CC. Those will be nasty. As I play Eldar, I react allergic to everything that outmanouvers and outguns me. Very unnerving.

Sam skywalker
09-03-2011, 22:54
I dont think there will be much of a problem with Daemons... They GKs will be a small army, Daemons will out number drastically. And soul grinders are rather shooty. Flamers and big squads of fiends would be effective. Will just have to change lists a little bit. I will face them with my daemons no problem. I have longer charge ranges, better movement, more units, can bog down expensive units with cheap, ineffective speed bumps. Easy peasy...

Necrons I do see having a problem. Tau too... Not sure about CSM. Will have to play that when the book is released to see how mine fair. My Vanilla marine list would prob lose but its rather fluffy and not designed for hardcore gaming. And I think BT and DA will have a hard time too...

Space wolves and Blood Angels I think are not going to have a problem, guard will blow the snot out of em, as will Eldar and Dark Eldar...

Grimtuff
09-03-2011, 22:56
Space wolves and Blood Angels I think are not going to have a problem, guard will blow the snot out of em, as will Eldar and Dark Eldar...

My SW's certainly won't. A few well placed Runic Staffs should shut down their tricksy magicks! :D

Sekhmet
09-03-2011, 23:12
As a daemon player I'm excited. I want to see how dangerous they can be. Had to promote a daemonette once to a herald because she killed 2 GK termies in hth in the same turn. In a 1 on 2 fight.

My bugs are also looking forward to the fight. I want to see what 20 toxin hormagants can do to the pretty Dreadknight.

Assuming all 20 survive the gauntlet of s5 stormbolters... About 3 wounds. 60 attacks, 35 hit rerolling 1s, round up to 36 for ease of math. 18 wound because poison. 3 failed armor saves at 2+.

But with psycannons and s5 stormbolters with upgrade, lightly armored infantry won't have a good time. A strike squad with upgrades will have 8 s7 and 16 s5 shots. That's about 13 dead gaunts in one round at 24".




So besides that psybolts make stormbolters s5, BoLS says that it makes autocannons S8.
Rifleman dreads with 4 TL S8 shots anyone? Although a single psycannon is a good contender with a rifleman it seems...

Freman Bloodglaive
09-03-2011, 23:23
I take it Dark Eldar haven't got to your local gaming store yet. Dark Eldar kind of mop the floor with Space Wolves.

Really? I hadn't noticed.

Yes, so far not a lot of Dark Eldar. It takes a while to build an army. So far mine has taken almost 15 years.

Ryan814
10-03-2011, 00:15
With my new Dark Eldar I'm not overly scared, I suppose all it really comes down to is how many points one of these marines are. If were looking at standard marine prices on the termies and PAGK then yeah, I'm worried on how I will deal with that. I read in the new article on the GW website that they also have some item to make them I6 which scares the crap outta my Incubi, especially with all those force weapon attacks headed at my leader.

I do think that when the codex comes out we will find more than a few glaring holes in them. Likely it will be low numbers dying to massed fire, I also can't wait til I see a craftworld Eldar player throw some fire dragons at those multi wound termies hopefully i can get a video of the Grey Knight players face when his uber expensive terminators get melta'd to death, or lascannoned to death, or darklanced to death, or rail gunned to death...... I think you can see where this is going.

Stealin' Genes
10-03-2011, 01:08
Not scared. Most of their psi powers put them in Shadow range, and fully kitted out squads of those guys are gonna be expensive, I reckon.

From what I've seen, they look fun to fight.

Death Company
10-03-2011, 02:03
"And They Shall Know No Fear" ;)

I'm not too worried about Grey Knights. It's just another power-armor army to fight against. I am a bit bothered by their psychic defenses, considering I always field a Librarian as my HQ, though. I'm just going to have to see how it all plays out.

Sekhmet
10-03-2011, 02:12
With my new Dark Eldar I'm not overly scared, I suppose all it really comes down to is how many points one of these marines are. If were looking at standard marine prices on the termies and PAGK then yeah, I'm worried on how I will deal with that. I read in the new article on the GW website that they also have some item to make them I6 which scares the crap outta my Incubi, especially with all those force weapon attacks headed at my leader.

I do think that when the codex comes out we will find more than a few glaring holes in them. Likely it will be low numbers dying to massed fire, I also can't wait til I see a craftworld Eldar player throw some fire dragons at those multi wound termies hopefully i can get a video of the Grey Knight players face when his uber expensive terminators get melta'd to death, or lascannoned to death, or darklanced to death, or rail gunned to death...... I think you can see where this is going.
I mean they do all have 4+ inv saves... and 2+ regular saves with FNP and enough cheap/free options to play wound allocation games.

At least they're not T5 like thunderwolves.

Infidel
10-03-2011, 02:34
Dear gentlemen

As a long term daemon player who had done reasonably well against all flavours of top-tier lists (IG Mech, Mechdar, Mech BA, Longfang + TWC, Genestealer Reserve...) I must say GK brings a challenge that might prove to be a little over the top.

If certain things in the leaked codex is not changed, even the best units in our codex under the most optimum of situations, won't even be able to scratch a GK Purifier squad. The old sight of a Crusher or a few Letter ploughing through a MEQ squad? Try again when they can kill half of my Slaanesh models before they get to swing or butcher my Khorne with they're all I6.

Oh, Greater Daemon you say? Try hammerhand + auto-confirming force weapon AND I6. That's one really really dead Bloodthirster.

That's not mentioning the DK and Warp Quake.

Will I fight them? Sure, bring it on.
Will I have fun? Probably not.
Can I do well? Now that's a rhetorical question.

acme2468
10-03-2011, 02:56
My Orks hope the Shiny Beakies prove capable of putting up a good scrap, The Black, Grey, Red and Blue ones Crumple too easily :skull:

tezdal
10-03-2011, 03:00
Fear? Khorne cares not from whom the blood flows, my World Eaters will drown them(and themselves) in a bloody red tide, KILL!MAIM!BURN!

Axeman1n
10-03-2011, 03:33
Why do GW have to nerf plasmas over meltas again? At least against normal terminators, plasmas were superior, but now against Paladins, meltas will reign supreme.
IG will do well.
Eldar will adapt.
Necrons will die as usual.
Deathwing will die as usual, unless I convert to TH/SS.
Vanilla Marines will do okay.
Orks will fair nicely, as long as they don't snipe all my Nobs to death.

DuskRaider
10-03-2011, 04:08
Deathwing and Black Templar, with their new rules, should fair well.

I'd just like to thank Matt Ward for invalidating my Daemon army. If I ever get the chance to meet him, I'll be sure to jam my FW Bloodthirster up his **** and ask for my money back.

AlmightyNocturnus
10-03-2011, 04:43
At first, I was thinking about my Daemon army and how they would react. Then, as the rumors got worse and worse (and were confirmed), I started thinking about Codex: Daemons in general. It wasn`t a big seller to begin with and much of the model range is still metal only. It wasn`t an easy army to learn 40K with or an easy army to play. (I just noticed I switched to "was" - past tense - in all of my sentences...I guess I`m shelving them). Now, GW has released an army just for the expressed purpose of curb-stomping daemons. Why?

And that`s what I kept thinking about: why? And, why would anyone ever buy a daemon model (from now on) or start a daemon army? That`s when it hit me: GW will do away with all-daemon armies. It has already been decided; tis is the direction GW wants to go. This is the fate of daemon armies. Whenever the next CSM codex comes out, it will have Bloodletters and Flamers in it. Daemons will again be relegated to supporting CSM.

You heard it here first.

Almighty Nocturnus

tezdal
10-03-2011, 04:44
At first, I was thinking about my Daemon army and how they would react. Then, as the rumors got worse and worse (and were confirmed), I started thinking about Codex: Daemons in general. It wasn`t a big seller to begin with and much of the model range is still metal only. It wasn`t an easy army to learn 40K with or an easy army to play. (I just noticed I switched to "was" - past tense - in all of my sentences...I guess I`m shelving them). Now, GW has released an army just for the expressed purpose of curb-stomping daemons. Why?

And that`s what I kept thinking about: why? And, why would anyone ever buy a daemon model (from now on) or start a daemon army? That`s when it hit me: GW will do away with all-daemon armies. It has already been decided; tis is the direction GW wants to go. This is the fate of daemon armies. Whenever the next CSM codex comes out, it will have Bloodletters and Flamers in it. Daemons will again be relegated to supporting CSM.

You heard it here first.

Almighty Nocturnus

Finally, back home where they belong!

Squallish
10-03-2011, 05:11
As an Eldar and future Dark Eldar player, I'm not liking the rumours about 20+ Psycannons at 1500 pts. S7 spam is bad enough to face with our skimmers, let alone Rending ones that can also move and shoot to deny us movement lanes. I really can't think of anything beyond pure Horde Orks, Guard and Nids that shouldn't be scared of 80+ S7 Rending shots... heck even they're going to wipe a horde unit per turn.

Dark Eldar were given FNP too! ... But then they decided to add an army that spams S7, so you never actually get to use it. Mech DE is dead if Psy-spam becomes standard. WWP Beastmaster lists may be able to handle them, but probably not well.

Azzy
10-03-2011, 05:14
What, me worry? I play Orks.

R1nkr4t86
10-03-2011, 05:46
I play daemons and I have no fear of the grey knights, they can have fun learning how easy failing 3+ and 2+ saves is when they're overwhelmed by horrors' warpfire, works every time on my friends blood angels and they have fnp spam to boot

Endobai
10-03-2011, 06:02
I can live with them.

Banshee still kill them. Dragons still toast them. Farseers suffer from -1Ld, but Runes of Warding suddenly become deadly.
Would be fun if Fortitude power on vehicles - say Storm Raven going flat-out - instead of ignoring shaken and stunned suddenly destroyed them. ;)

Of course some things are damn scary and my fluffy army lists still suffer, but we will see how it goes.


On the orther hand my (starting force) of DE is pretty worried already, but should be able to adapt.

Captain Semper
10-03-2011, 06:10
At first, I was thinking about my Daemon army and how they would react. Then, as the rumors got worse and worse (and were confirmed), I started thinking about Codex: Daemons in general. It wasn`t a big seller to begin with and much of the model range is still metal only. It wasn`t an easy army to learn 40K with or an easy army to play. (I just noticed I switched to "was" - past tense - in all of my sentences...I guess I`m shelving them). Now, GW has released an army just for the expressed purpose of curb-stomping daemons. Why?

And that`s what I kept thinking about: why? And, why would anyone ever buy a daemon model (from now on) or start a daemon army? That`s when it hit me: GW will do away with all-daemon armies. It has already been decided; tis is the direction GW wants to go. This is the fate of daemon armies. Whenever the next CSM codex comes out, it will have Bloodletters and Flamers in it. Daemons will again be relegated to supporting CSM.

You heard it here first.

Almighty Nocturnus

I only hope it's true... If GW plays it smart it'll be possible (i the player wishes) to still build an all Deamon army. But I hope the next Chaos Codex will have Chaos Marines, Deamons of all sorts and Chaos aligned forces (cultists or whatever...) :cool:

Axeman1n
10-03-2011, 06:40
I think that the over powered Daemons in WFB caused way too many people to try and play both with one army. This way, GW forces you to buy a 40k army and a WFB army if you want to play both.

Overlord Krycis
10-03-2011, 07:02
Bad Moons Orks: at 1500pts I have over 150 models...not really that concerned with the Grey Knights tbh..Ignore my x++ saves? What ++ saves?

Iyanden Eldar: Hmm...a little more concerned as it's not the most competitive army out there...having said that, my Farseer/Eldrad will be having fun.

Heralds of Asgard (my renegade SW chapter): So...your whole army are psykers...and you kind of need those powers...and don't like lots of ranged firepower...
Mwahahahahahahahaha!!!! I think my marines are going to have a field day. XD

Leogun_91
10-03-2011, 07:35
I can't believe some of you would just flat out refuse to play them with Daemons, what are you afraid of that you might lose or lose bad? Every game, including your losses is an opportunity to learn, and even a Leafblower list could be handled.It's not a fear of losing, I lose 80% of my 40k games anyways, it's the fact that I'm not very likely to enjoy the game at all and then there are better things to do with my time, I could for example paint some models or play another, more fun, game.

It will, close games are better anyway (not least because I managed a draw against IG today despite only having 1 Chosen left on the field :D) plus Gk's are still SM's and you only need about 2 or 3 Bloodletters to destroy a SM squad.Until they use a psychic power to remove our powerweapons that is, then they aren't much use.

At first, I was thinking about my Daemon army and how they would react. Then, as the rumors got worse and worse (and were confirmed), I started thinking about Codex: Daemons in general. It wasn`t a big seller to begin with and much of the model range is still metal only. It wasn`t an easy army to learn 40K with or an easy army to play. (I just noticed I switched to "was" - past tense - in all of my sentences...I guess I`m shelving them). Now, GW has released an army just for the expressed purpose of curb-stomping daemons. Why?

And that`s what I kept thinking about: why? And, why would anyone ever buy a daemon model (from now on) or start a daemon army? That`s when it hit me: GW will do away with all-daemon armies. It has already been decided; tis is the direction GW wants to go. This is the fate of daemon armies. Whenever the next CSM codex comes out, it will have Bloodletters and Flamers in it. Daemons will again be relegated to supporting CSM.

You heard it here first.

Almighty NocturnusI hope not, then I would be very likely to quit 40k and just play fantasy, I chose daemons for my 40k army because I love the feel of daemons in 40k, I love the fear brought by a single gellar field malfunction, the terror of a daemonic infestation out of nowhere, without that I see no point in it.

I play daemons and I have no fear of the grey knights, they can have fun learning how easy failing 3+ and 2+ saves is when they're overwhelmed by horrors' warpfire, works every time on my friends blood angels and they have fnp spam to bootWhen they one at a time drop out through the warpquake he can just shut down their daemonic gifts, warpfire is a daemonic gift, no warpfire for you, also note that they can shut down chaos icons.

Blink
10-03-2011, 07:39
Not scared at ALL... Tyranid and Necron.

I can pour enough Devourer shots into them to make them feel REALLY bad about each crazy expensive model lost.

With Necron, it's going to be hilariously fun using War Scythes and everything to ignore those nasty 2+ invuln saves.

Fun stuff.

I actually WANT to fight Grey Knights as Daemons. It will be much more gratifying to beat them with an army like that.

urien
10-03-2011, 08:07
i shall not know no fear !! - basicly because i just started putting together black templars and they aint resembling any kind of force whatsoever right now :P


Like: "The grey knights only go after really powerful daemonic invasions, to represent this, all the daemonplayers units gain "(Insert whatever rule here)". The "normal" daemonic invasions in the Imperium is normally handled by the imperial guard or the space marines - often aided by an inquisitor."

ohh boy i just want to be in fluff year 2k and earlier...

normal regiments of guard are killed by I just the second after battling "normal" chaos space marines and you want them to be dealing regularly against demons?

the very same goes for space marines- although its a waste of resources so theyre doing them memory erasing things instead of killig them off..

Mirbeau
10-03-2011, 09:06
My blood angels and dark eldar will literally have them for breakfast. Can't wait. Looking foward to having go with friend's guard and daemons too.

Dvora
10-03-2011, 10:23
Well, since the Dread knight is pretty much a kill bot, I"ll just send wave after wave of my Imperial Guardsmen at it until it reaches it's kill limit ( About turn 5) and shuts down.

Max_Killfactor
10-03-2011, 12:10
My Dark Eldar have never struggled with meq, and I don't think they're going to start now.

Cheeslord
10-03-2011, 12:57
I play daemons and I have no fear of the grey knights, they can have fun learning how easy failing 3+ and 2+ saves is when they're overwhelmed by horrors' warpfire, works every time on my friends blood angels and they have fnp spam to boot

From what I have heard, they can force you to deepstrike over 12" away with one psychic power (meaning theres a good chance you will end up >18" away and unable to shoot them), and on subsequent turns they can take away your Warpfire with another psychic power. of course this depends on how cheaply they can field the psykers that do this compared to the cost of the Daemons, but it seems like large numbers of psykers are another feature of the GK army.
Mark.

Bonzai
10-03-2011, 14:55
As a Necron player, want to know what really scares me? Warp Rift. An insta death template that requires an initative test. Oh right, the bulk of my army is initiative 2. No WBB, just roll a 1 or 2 or pick it up. I guess a 1 in 3 shot of living isn't too bad. I just wish they learned their lesson with JotWW. Then they have 2 other powers that do the same thing to a lesser extent. Otherwise they are mostly like fighting any other terminator heavy army. Low numbers that can be whittled down with volume of fire.

As a Tyranid player, Warp Rift is less of an issue (except for fexes and tervigons), but still an issue. I play a shooty nid list, so volume of fire is key for me as well. Shadows of the Warp may actually prove to be an asset... if you can just persuade them to get out of their transports. The I7 insta-death assassin is a pain if he reaches your MC's, but he is a unit of one and should be able to be picked off.

As a Chaos Space Marine player.... My Prince is a bit nervous, but otherwise it's business as usual.

Salamanders? Nothing really to hose me.

Kiras of the flame
10-03-2011, 15:11
Let's see...

from what I can understand it's still the same army that you can fit 2k points into a shoebox...

and while I know that they have the best troops in the game...

oh zog it...
WAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!

also when it comes out all of them are gonna want to use their new boy-toys...so it should be a snap just running over them....

though I might collect some just for the sake that they're a small, Elite army... that I can fit in my shoebox...

RobPro
10-03-2011, 22:59
As a Necron player, want to know what really scares me? Warp Rift. An insta death template that requires an initative test. Oh right, the bulk of my army is initiative 2. No WBB, just roll a 1 or 2 or pick it up.


ID doesn't stop WBB, only S = 2xT. So weapons that only cause ID but don't have a strength value and don't ignore armor saves in CC do not stop WBB. Another example of this is Strength D shooting in Apoc.

Enjoy. :)

Also, it seems fluff-wise that the Necrons and the Grey Knights have some similar goals. I could totally see a Necron Lord making out with some GK GrandMasters in their fluff.

Asher
10-03-2011, 23:01
The leaked codex made me a bit nervous but since the dreadknight and psycannons were toned down, I'm fine as an IG player.

Firmlog
11-03-2011, 08:28
I didn't see a real need to fear for demons. Demons/chaos loose demonic gifts in cc as I recall. Drago may have some special anti-demon moves, but if a demon prince doesn't have the demon rule trait I'm sure he's unaffected. Guard should be afraid, Dark Eldar and Eldar, Orks maybe space wolves or regular marines. Mostly specialist armies with lower model counts, vehicle armies if the GK brings dreadknights, Multi-wound hq's and units that are usually immune to instant death like ogryns/ork nobs. They seem really good at taking down deathstar units and powerful heroes.

Eldar farseers are -1 ld, but they will still get three dice pick the lowest to pass. Only librarians still have psychic hoods. Armor save armies will be weak agaisnt them, but mostly if GK can tool to a specific army they will be disgusting, but on the same level a tooled DE player could wreck them with disintigrators.

Overlord Krycis
11-03-2011, 09:11
...Guard should be afraid, Dark Eldar and Eldar, Orks maybe space wolves or regular marines...

Um...maybe I missed something...but why should Orks or Space Wolves (or marine in general for that matter) fear the GKs?

Orks will outnumber them by stupid amounts (my 1500pts list has over 150 models) and while they can't hit the broadside of a thunderhawk, enough shots will cause quite a bit of damage (all of my boyz have shootas...mostly for the comedic expression on my opponent's face when I fire then charge :) )

As for SW...the rune priests will cause problems for all those GK powers...and GK armies will most likely be small if they go for all the funky stuff...so my marine horde will out number by silly amounts too.
Even if they didn't, I have yet to see something (draigo+crazy sized Paladin unit withstanding) in the GK dex that I can't deal with.

But, playing against them will be the real test I suppose...hears hoping for lots of GK players in my area, lots of experience of playing them will decide it for me.

Dvora
11-03-2011, 09:21
I think it's kinda interesting nobody is mentioning how Tyranids will fair against this. I'm thinking poorly myself.

Blink
11-03-2011, 09:36
Most tyranid lists will be just fine. Tyranid players are jealous of the dreadknight doubtlessly, knowing that they could have had something like that if the Tyranid were handled by another codex writer... but that says nothing for how they will match up.

Tyranid have plenty of tools to use against them, namely boneswords and devourers (or other weight of fire options). It will be a fun match, but I personally can't wait to demoralize every Grey Knight player by whittling their small numbers down under the weight of Devourer fire.

Azzy
11-03-2011, 11:09
Um...maybe I missed something...but why should Orks [...stuff...] fear the GKs?

Agreed. Bring your uber units, GK, I've got dakka and choppas in spades. :evilgrin:

IAMNOTHERE
11-03-2011, 11:18
No probs greenies, I've played small armies for years and never worried about horde.

I worry about having an army left after turn 5 because every casualty hurts me bad :(

NerZuhl
11-03-2011, 11:27
Sigh, what the majority of the people panicking are failing to realize is that the Uber units are not the strength of the codex.

6x 5 man PAGK in Rhinos with a Psycannon is under 1000pts. They will be outnumbered, but not nearly as badly as people think. In 1500 points fielding 40-50 PAGK with wargear, HQ, and some assassins is quite easy.

Even a standard 10 man PAGK unit is only slightly more expensive than a 30 boy mob. Add in the PK nob and that gives enough points for some special gear for the squad. That 10 squad is easily a match for the 30 boys you bring.

Is the dex broken, no. Is it gonna be as good as IG and SW, yep.

igwarlord
11-03-2011, 11:44
Well lemme look
My IG will smash the GK
my BA will cut them to ribbons
my WH will probably be challenged maybe But i will defenitly blow off my penitent and send them at a DreadKnight real quick

BrotherCaptainS
11-03-2011, 11:54
I was curb stomping deamons before this new codex came out. I will continue to do so afterwards. I can't believe all the end of the world talk flying around. We finally get an update and its just not fair... huh..... funny. we still don't reliably kill armor or the like.

Oh well prepare to get curb stomped some more.. ahahahahaha

Firmlog
11-03-2011, 12:04
Actually GK do kill armor pretty reliably, whether troop armor with power weapons or vehicles with Dreadknights (and other stuff) I'm not listing all the option, but they aren't the "we can't kill tanks army" they used to be. That's not bad, they aren't the old GK, which I think a lot of people are worried about. Like DE which become the old DE but better, many people they are the old GK but better. Are they better, probably definitely, but they ain't the same (at least some of it... lol).

gonzosbignose
11-03-2011, 12:23
The clue's in the name and that's why many daemon players won't have much fun.

I personally can't wait until Mat Wards next codex...

GREY KNIGHT HUNTERS...

:)

Regards

My name is Daniel and I am a wargamer

Leogun_91
11-03-2011, 12:45
Actually GK do kill armor pretty reliably, whether troop armor with power weapons or vehicles with Dreadknights (and other stuff) I'm not listing all the option, but they aren't the "we can't kill tanks army" they used to be. That's not bad, they aren't the old GK, which I think a lot of people are worried about. Like DE which become the old DE but better, many people they are the old GK but better. Are they better, probably definitely, but they ain't the same (at least some of it... lol).Probably definitely?!
Seriously?

sasheep
11-03-2011, 13:18
My DE will be fine, my wyches will outnumber them, my incubi will relish a challenge and Lelith will jump out my webway portal to deal with anything silly enough to get in her way.
As for my BA, Astorath and his death company will just slice and dice them.
My SM will probs find it hard but thats mainly cause its fluffy and i rely heavly on my librarians
I can see my new WH having a bit of a problem but thats cause i have only just started them ;) But im sure numbers will help me out.

Bonzai
11-03-2011, 13:38
ID doesn't stop WBB, only S = 2xT. So weapons that only cause ID but don't have a strength value and don't ignore armor saves in CC do not stop WBB. Another example of this is Strength D shooting in Apoc.

Enjoy. :)

Also, it seems fluff-wise that the Necrons and the Grey Knights have some similar goals. I could totally see a Necron Lord making out with some GK GrandMasters in their fluff.

From what I saw, it says models are "removed". I would say that would mean off the table, and uneligible for WBB.

And Dude... don't joke! Dante and the Silent Kings torrid love affair is bad enough.

NerZuhl
11-03-2011, 13:49
Necrons fail against assault units.

GK are great in assault.

if GK assault Necrons, GK win. Your Lord with scyth won't survive or do enough damage to matter.

Honestly, I think necrons are almost as bad off as daemons vs GK lol

Firmlog
11-03-2011, 13:55
Probably definitely worse... lol again. (sorry had too)

IAMNOTHERE
11-03-2011, 13:58
JotWW allows a WBB iirc,

SquigBoy Extraordinaire
11-03-2011, 14:14
Couldn't Mat Ward make something interesting out of the GK/Daemons rivalry instead of an InstaWin- button? We don't know for sure untill we try though - so we'll see how it ends...

I have looked at the miniatures and i am unimpressed; I have looked at the prices and I am abashed :eek:; I have looked at the rules and called out Codex: Necrons. It bored me to death playing with Necrons because of how easy it was to win with them, it practically removed the tactical finesse out of playing them because the rules let you get away with snipping at tanks with regular RapFire weapons, and taking out monstruous creatures without breaking a sweat. :angel: Wheather it was a strong oponent or a weaker one, the selections were pretty much the same.
Grey Knights suffer from the same flaw, IMO, but with a bit more variety, but some of this variety will be useless safe for the "Fluffy" player. :cheese:

just my two cents

SquigBoy Extraordinaire
11-03-2011, 14:18
Agreed. Bring your uber units, GK, I've got dakka and choppas in spades. :evilgrin:

Ditto! Orks will just outnumber them and eventually overclass them :p
let there be 2 mobs of 30 boyz with a Nob power claw in their midst and they can sit through a beating and come out smilling on the other end! :cool:

Bonzai
11-03-2011, 14:57
JotWW allows a WBB iirc,

I did not know that. Cool. They are worded nearly identical, so if JotWW allows it, then warp rift should too. Cool beans.

Other than that, and things like it, I wasn't too worried about grey knights. I have to deal with terminator armies every now and again (logan wing, death wing, Salamanders). It's about the same as fighting blood angels. Small, elite, and nasty, but I out number them and can bring some decent weight of fire.

My Wraiths do ok against most terminators, but then again if they are initiative 6, that could be an issue.

Cheeslord
11-03-2011, 15:04
JOTWW allows a massive rules argument over wether you get WBB, with victory going to the loudest shouter, so expect the new super-insta-death to do the same.

NerZhul: the difference betweeen necrons and Daemons is that necrons are used to getting owned by anything (except possibly the Tau) in close combat, so necron strategy has evolved around this. Necron players will always seek to keep away from the GK.

Daemons are used to being able to beat just about everyone in close combat so their strategies are almost always about closing as fast as possible and engaging the enemy hand to hand. Now here come the gray knights who are designed to beat them, making 3/4 of the Daemon army redundant, so the daemons lose a lot more than the Necrons.

Well, thats if the GK turn out to be as bad as suggested here. I'll wait and see just how hard it is to get all the Daemon-autokill powers off on all daemon units every turn.

Mark.

NerZuhl
11-03-2011, 15:15
WBB causes arguments period, always has, always will.

I don't understand why people think mobs of 30 boyz are gonna work. Do they work currently? Cause for the most part they haven't scared any player I know since 4th edition. Doubt GK will fear them either.

It all boils down to this. 5th edition is the edition of the Imperial. Xenos are the "challenging" armies.

What makes me fundamentally sad with the GK release is that it means one of the crappier authors is taking up the Necron codex. Which means we will have another balanced (Dark Eldar) or sub par codex for Xenos (Orks and Nids). From what I understand it is Cruddance (sp?) who is writing it, and he is awful at internal balance for codexes (IG and Nids being prime examples)

Sami
11-03-2011, 16:38
Assault-based DE will be massacred by GK.
Ranged-based DE lists will make them cry.

Zinch
11-03-2011, 16:43
It all boils down to this. 5th edition is the edition of the Imperial. Xenos are the "sparring" armies.



I'm sorry, I couldn't resist... :p

Stealin' Genes
11-03-2011, 16:49
Devourergaunts. All the time. Forever. Bonus points for killing these ohsomighty heroes of humanity, the greatest warriors in the galaxy, the guys Marneus Calgar wishes he could be, by ignonimously gunning them down with gaunts.

"You're super awesome at CC? Your fluff says you falcon punched three avatars and then farted a seer council to death? Is that so? Here's a load of pointy caterpillars."

Also sword/whip warriors ought to ruin a lot of GK units' days pretty harshly. Plus it'll be fun to say "no, this time it's my turn to have wargear that completely screws you.

Between this book and DE I'm glad I didn't go crazy buying tons of MCs, though.

I suspect that MC-heavy nid lists are going to have real problems against GK, but hey, if it means fewer people look at me funny when I deploy my horde of bugs, I'm happy.

RobPro
11-03-2011, 16:51
4 squads of 30 boys scare me... I don't have enough bullets to kill them all with my Necrons. :(

I believe JotWW does not allow WBB ("removed from the table" is not the same as "removed as a casualty"), but the other poster said it was just an Initiative test and then the model suffered ID. If that is the case, WBB will still work because you're just removed it as a casualty. If the model is "removed from the table," then ID is irrelevant and WBB won't work.

Leogun_91
11-03-2011, 16:54
I suspect that MC-heavy nid lists are going to have real problems against GK, but hey, if it means fewer people look at me funny when I deploy my horde of bugs, I'm happy.Compared to MC heavy daemons the nids have nothing to complain about.

Scammel
11-03-2011, 17:39
Yes, I'm very afraid, positively passing water. Not because they're particularly powerful, but because every unit has so many special rules - I think there's going to be plentiful incidents of misinterpretation, abuse or plain forgetfulness.

Skyros
11-03-2011, 17:57
I'm not terribly worried. I think my stock SoB list would utterly annihilate most of the lists I've seen being bandied about as 'brokenly powerful', for example.

Skyros
11-03-2011, 17:58
What makes me fundamentally sad with the GK release is that it means one of the crappier authors is taking up the Necron codex. Which means we will have another balanced (Dark Eldar) or sub par codex for Xenos (Orks and Nids). From what I understand it is Cruddance (sp?) who is writing it, and he is awful at internal balance for codexes (IG and Nids being prime examples)

But the IG codex is, IMO, the single strongest codex in the game.

It's frustrating and irritating when a codex has poor internal balance, but it doesn't stop you from making good competitive lists.

I'd rather have poor internal balance than poor external balance. It's not like there's only one viable guard list, either.

Thud
11-03-2011, 22:26
I'm looking forward to the Grey Knights. :)

Things usually work out allright. Even if half of the interwebs are convinced the sky is falling.

NerZuhl
12-03-2011, 01:22
But the IG codex is, IMO, the single strongest codex in the game.

It's frustrating and irritating when a codex has poor internal balance, but it doesn't stop you from making good competitive lists.

I'd rather have poor internal balance than poor external balance. It's not like there's only one viable guard list, either.

IG is a strong codex because the author liked IG. And it isn't the strongest in the game, in the top but not the best.

He authored Nids as well, same horrid internal balance, and not nearly as viable.

Tzeentch Lover
12-03-2011, 02:36
Tyranids: Not really so scared. Annoyed that everything has a freaking force weapon, but I guess that balances out the fewer number of S8+ AP3- weapons.

Tzeentch Daemons: Game over pretty much. I can see Tzeentch Daemons having more chance than the others, but there is no way Daemons as a whole stand a ghost of a chance. Not between Psyk-out grenades and Warp Quake(not paying much attention to the other anti-deamon stuff) they don't.

Blink
12-03-2011, 03:03
Having had a good look at it today... I'm actually completely changing my stance.

A Dreadknight can handle just about everything my 'Ard Boyz Tyranid list can throw at it, and then some... and they can have 3 of them for relatively cheap.

I'm glad they aren't T7 anymore, but even 20 Devourer gaunts pouring their 60 shots into it will average less than 1 wound per round. Poisoned Power Weapons or the Swarmlord are the only things in the Tyranid Codex that can reasonably take it down... And no one really takes Tyranid Warriors in competitive settings...

I wasn't worried with Necron until I realized just how hardy AND mobile all their units are.

They seem like a ridiculously fun army to play... but it's disheartening to know their best choices are as ridiculous as they are.

Skyros
12-03-2011, 03:42
Are there any codexes that don't have bad internal balance?

Recent books have things you'd never ever take given the alternatives (pyrovores, blood claws)

The old WH and DH codexes have some of the worst units imaginable. Maybe it's just the way it goes?

Blink
12-03-2011, 03:47
That wasn't the point I was getting at Skyros. And besides, from what I've seen of the Grey Knights codex, you can take any of several different types of lists because you have options in every slot that can handle the bases, meaning you likely can use almost all the options.

LonelyPath
12-03-2011, 03:53
I don't understand why people think mobs of 30 boyz are gonna work. Do they work currently? Cause for the most part they haven't scared any player I know since 4th edition. Doubt GK will fear them either.


That made me lol, I've yet to see anyone face a good Ork player that hasn't learned to fear such mobs.

Nurgling Chieftain
12-03-2011, 04:02
On internal balance, I'd much rather have a codex with some under-powered units than a codex with some over-powered units.

Dribble Joy
12-03-2011, 05:22
The codex, from what I've seen, isn't as bad as people make out. GKs have needed a boost since they first came out.

Paladins may be horrible, but they will be probably hitting 60+ points each and die just as easily to power klaws as normal termis. FnP? Do they really need it, especially when it's such an expensive upgrade and you loose a nemesis weapon?

Draigo didn't need to be quite as dirty, at least his S/T values.

Like most codexes I'm sure it won't be so bad a few months after release.

As an ork player I know just how fragile a 30 strong mob is. A bitt of gunning and a solid charge plus No Retreat! = dead unit in one turn.

Which is why I take meganobs, Gazzy, wagons and lotz of gunz. Oh and a Lifta-droppa.

Aluinn
12-03-2011, 07:50
I'm not too concerned about it, for my armies.

-Eldar benefit quite a lot from GK no longer getting a ton of weapons which ignore invulnerable saves, and runes of warding are going to be absolutely brutal against them.

-Dark Eldar aren't especially boned by anything that the GK got except the Dread with dual autocannons and psybolt ammo, which admittedly is pretty bad for them. Still, I don't think facing GK will be terribly different from facing Space Wolves with DE, most of the time. Not the best matchup, but I'll feel like I have a fair chance.

-Orks will probably struggle the must, because GK will be extremely hard to beat in close combat. Still, the power weapons are at least fairly wasted against Orks. What concerns me are the GK abilities which lower enemy Toughness, as that's pretty much what Orks have going for them in combat aside from numbers (and hidden klaws, I suppose). I would cite their anti-horde psychic powers here, too, but I honestly think that they needed those to be able to stand up to horde armies.

samiens
12-03-2011, 09:31
In all seriousness, their numbers will be similar to a Chaos Space Marine army (analogous points costs across the board) and in many cases will be less survivable. Really not too concerned- especially as most of their force multipliers rely on a psychic test (and psychioc defence is in reasonable supply)

Sami
12-03-2011, 10:22
Are there any codexes that don't have bad internal balance?

Recent books have things you'd never ever take given the alternatives (pyrovores, blood claws)

The old WH and DH codexes have some of the worst units imaginable. Maybe it's just the way it goes?

DE book has fantastic internal balanace. Sadly, that goes completely out of the window when you expect to face mech lists.

comradeda
13-03-2011, 23:05
when you expect to face mech lists.

When isn't that?

ihavetoomuchminis
13-03-2011, 23:39
DE book has fantastic internal balanace. Sadly, that goes completely out of the window when you expect to face mech lists.

unfortunately, good internal balance too usually means "weak army", or in another words, poor external balance.

SamaNagol
14-03-2011, 05:55
10 man PAGK squads in Rhinos with 2 Psycannon firing out the top. Get out vs Hordes and fire your 16 S5 StormBolter shots as well. Happy days. Incinerators arent even necessary when you have so many S5 AP5 shots.

Ork Nobz with claws go down one a turn to Vindicare Assassins.

Happy times.

Thats without even taking Purifiers with Cleansing Flame...

the_picto
14-03-2011, 10:51
10 man PAGK squads in Rhinos with 2 Psycannon firing out the top. Get out vs Hordes and fire your 16 S5 StormBolter shots as well. Happy days. Incinerators arent even necessary when you have so many S5 AP5 shots.

Ork Nobz with claws go down one a turn to Vindicare Assassins.

Happy times.

Thats without even taking Purifiers with Cleansing Flame...

Since when are storm bolters S5? Also, ork nobs are 2 wound models.

Lord Damocles
14-03-2011, 11:00
My Guard have nothing to give about slightly differently coloured Marines.

You want to put down a 300pt squad? Great. My Executioners will remove it as easily as a 170pt squad.

You got into combat? All those assault upgrades are giving you such a huge boost against my fodder. Oh noes!




Since when are storm bolters S5? Also, ork nobs are 2 wound models.
Psy Bolts. Turbopenetrator Rounds.

Zinch
14-03-2011, 11:41
Yes, but Turbopenetrator Rounds only wound on a 4+, so is a Nob killed every 2 turns.
Also, it comes from a 140+ points body that dies just like 2 marines with stealth in cover... even easier as it is not EW...

Cheeslord
14-03-2011, 11:52
What makes me fundamentally sad with the GK release is that it means one of the crappier authors is taking up the Necron codex. Which means we will have another balanced (Dark Eldar) or sub par codex for Xenos (Orks and Nids). From what I understand it is Cruddance (sp?) who is writing it, and he is awful at internal balance for codexes (IG and Nids being prime examples)

Don't forget that means there will be a 6 month wait after the codex is released for the FAQ that explains how the powers worked in his head, rather than what he wrote down in the rules.

Mark.

BlackYujiro
14-03-2011, 12:11
Well, my mostly Elites daemon army is boned. And since I don't like the idea of playing a horde daemon army(which MAY be able to hold it's own), I guess I'll be starting anew.

Sons of Malice using Codex:GK, here I come.(If ya can't beat em, join em....I guess)

Hypaspist
14-03-2011, 12:22
I'm not overly concerned by the Codex. Yes it looks good, and a few things in there look to be a little bit rude, but I'm sure it will all boil down to the opponents you face as much as anything.

The same thing will happen as happens with every release.

1) Rumours of codex leaked (happened)
2) Rage abounds at Rumours of codex (happened)
3) Several Rude builds are possible, but overall, not entirely broken (Seems to have happened).
4) Codex is released and people begin to play the Codex.
5) army appears to be more difficult to play than point>click>win
6) People play against, and beat GK, and realise the sky is not falling.

Besides it will be nice to actually *see* some Grey Knight opponents across the board. I know several of my regular opponents are excited. And I cant wait to get stuck into them with my Orks/Nids/Dark Eldar/Dark Angels.

:D

Skyros
14-03-2011, 14:51
Ork Nobz with claws go down one a turn to Vindicare Assassins.


No matter what round you use, it will statistically take two rounds to down an Ork Nob, if he has no cover save.

Four if he has a cover save.

Vindicare should be shooting at other things, honestly.

DaSpaceAsians
11-04-2011, 02:08
Good thing I can grind them down with good old guardsmen and overwhelming firepower,
Seriously, there's nothing that can't be solved by throwing more men and shells at it :D