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View Full Version : Skavenslaves vs. template/blast weapons



Balerion
12-03-2011, 17:30
I'm just wondering what happens when a Skaven player aims a blast/template weapon at an enemy unit that is engaged with a unit of Skavenslaves, and then endures an unlucky scatter/distance result on the shot and ends up contacting the Skavenslave unit itself, but no enemies.

Diagram attached below.

So what happens after a result like that? Do the Skavenslaves bear the full brunt of the shot alone, or are the hits randomized between the slaves and their engaged foe?

Agoz
12-03-2011, 19:17
If you check the skaven faq, you'll notice that it says to delete the last two sentences in the expendable paragraph, which means the amended paragraph now reads:
"... Skaven can voluntarily target ranged attacks at enemy units engaged in close combat with Skavenslaves(but no other freindly troops)."

It no longer says anything about randomizing hits between the enemy and the slaves, so if a hit hits the enemy thats all it hits, and visa-versa. So, if the template hits only skavenslaves, the hits are not randomized, it hits only skavenslaves.

Balerion
12-03-2011, 19:40
I had heard something along those lines, but it sounded too brutal to be true. Not having to randomize the hits seems unfair to the non-Skaven player.

theunwantedbeing
12-03-2011, 19:54
I had heard something along those lines, but it sounded too brutal to be true. Not having to randomize the hits seems unfair to the non-Skaven player.

How is it brutal?
Slaves cost almost nothing.
Skaven ranged weaponry is hugely powerful.

Balerion
12-03-2011, 21:42
How is it brutal?
Slaves cost almost nothing.
Skaven ranged weaponry is hugely powerful.
You completely misread my post. Take another look.

"unfair to the non-Skaven player"

It's unfair that shooting, especially non-template shooting, doesn't get randomized between the Slaves and their enemies anymore.

Kevlar
12-03-2011, 22:07
You completely misread my post. Take another look.

"unfair to the non-Skaven player"

It's unfair that shooting, especially non-template shooting, doesn't get randomized between the Slaves and their enemies anymore.

I agree and I am a skaven player. That FAQ entry makes no sense to me. I guess its a good thing skaven have very little ballistic skill shooting, and what they do have is expensive.

sknich
12-03-2011, 22:09
That was FAQ'd because skaven players would sit a warpfire thrower behind a huge block of slaves in combat, and just drop the template on the slaves. It would still randomize between the slaves and enemy, but it kept the warpfire thrower out of harms way. The FAQ took away an even more brutal usage of the rule.

Kevlar
12-03-2011, 22:17
That was FAQ'd because skaven players would sit a warpfire thrower behind a huge block of slaves in combat, and just drop the template on the slaves. It would still randomize between the slaves and enemy, but it kept the warpfire thrower out of harms way. The FAQ took away an even more brutal usage of the rule.

The template rule shouldn't have anything to do with the ballistic skill rule.

Yes, a template should hit what it hits, but ballistic skill weapons should still be randomized. It would be tough to abuse randomized shots with a ratling gun or jezzails.

theunwantedbeing
12-03-2011, 22:20
You completely misread my post. Take another look.

"unfair to the non-Skaven player"

It's unfair that shooting, especially non-template shooting, doesn't get randomized between the Slaves and their enemies anymore.

Ah.
See, normally all people did was drop the template in the slave unit and then randomise the hits between the slaves and the unit fighting the slaves.
Usually they'de get 20-30 hits on the slaves, and this became 10-15 hits on the enemy, way more than they'de normally manage.

They lose 20-30pts of slaves, the enemy loses 50-300pts.
Hence why it doesn't seem unfair in the least to me.

Strange how they've altered it so that non-template weapons don't randomise anymore. That said, you will usually suffer at least a -2 penalty to hit due to the cover the slaves grant. So I can see why it was removed at least.

sknich
12-03-2011, 22:52
The template rule shouldn't have anything to do with the ballistic skill rule.

Yes, a template should hit what it hits, but ballistic skill weapons should still be randomized. It would be tough to abuse randomized shots with a ratling gun or jezzails.

Yes but now in the BRB that is covered because whoever is in combat with the slaves get hard cover due to the slaves being in the way

FestHest
12-03-2011, 23:18
What I would like is that GW would seperate ranged 'template' weapons from ranged 'arrows/bullets'.
I think it would sort out a lot of misunderstandings and wierd rules.
Just take a look at the thread(s) about cannons and the furnace/bell. The rule can be read as the cannon ball could potentially hit the same model twice.
And Im sure theres a lot other wierd (special)rules that would benefit from seperating template weapons from other ranged firing.

JonnyTHM
13-03-2011, 00:49
Yes but now in the BRB that is covered because whoever is in combat with the slaves get hard cover due to the slaves being in the way

To be fair (as a skaven player) I don't tend to suffer any hard cover penalties: my jezzails don't tend to shoot at slave combats, and my globadiers or slave slingers keep up and shoot from the flanks.

All that being said, I think that it's a major streamlining improvement, and probably worth doing for that alone.

Balerion
13-03-2011, 07:36
Ah.
See, normally all people did was drop the template in the slave unit and then randomise the hits between the slaves and the unit fighting the slaves.
Usually they'de get 20-30 hits on the slaves, and this became 10-15 hits on the enemy, way more than they'de normally manage.

They lose 20-30pts of slaves, the enemy loses 50-300pts.
Hence why it doesn't seem unfair in the least to me.
Man, that's pretty bad. I had not surmised that that would be possible without the FAQ change.

I guess it makes sense, then, but it still seems odd that they didn't except BS-based weapons.

jaxom
14-03-2011, 18:21
Keep in mind that all fluff and sense aside, the rules don't allow a Skaven player to actually target a template in such a way that it will hit his Slaves either. If the template "accidently" hits the slaves you're ok, but there's nothing in the Expendable rule that changes your targetting rules.

Unlike the Cannon rules, the Skaven don't have anything that says "no chance of hitting" so we've played it generally to be "as long as there is a result (other than a misfire) which results in placing the template so that it does not hit slaves". But neither Expendable nor Life Is Cheap (the Globardier version) allow you to intentionally target your own units.

Now, I know that is totally unfluffy since Skaven really kinda hose down Slaves at will but fluff ain't rules.

Spinocus
15-03-2011, 20:19
Yes but now in the BRB that is covered because whoever is in combat with the slaves get hard cover due to the slaves being in the way

True... but that only covers certain situations. If the target unit has quite a few ranks then a straight, clean shot into the flanks or shots taken from a reasonably high hill should not incur the -2 penalty.

theunwantedbeing
15-03-2011, 20:25
It stops the despicable practice that I pointed out earlier, its a good change for that reason.

Plus you can often screen your stuff in such a way that the skaven player is usually going to be at -2 to hit anything fighting slaves.
Also it means certain war machines that misfire, can be placed over the slaves with no risk to your own stuff :)

Lord Solar Plexus
16-03-2011, 10:22
They lose 20-30pts of slaves, the enemy loses 50-300pts.


And now only the enemy loses those 50-300 points. I fail to see how that is less brutal. :confused:

theunwantedbeing
16-03-2011, 10:31
That would be because you haven't read all the replies in this thread.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-03-2011, 10:57
No, I don't think that is it. Try again.

ariochhelldrake
16-03-2011, 11:03
Yeah he means previously you whacked the slave unit where you could hit say 50 models (just a token number) with a template which were then randomised onto the potentially much smaller enemy unit so say 25 hits on a enemy unit of lot less then 25 models, or 25 hits on that super tough character/monster etc etc. Plus hitting a big block of slaves lowers the chance of a bad scatter

Lord Solar Plexus
16-03-2011, 12:41
Perhaps I'm just too tired to make sense of this but it seems to me that hitting my 50 Halberdiers and causing 50 hits is more brutal than hitting your 50 Slaves and causing only 25 hits.

I admit that in some cases it could be beneficial to shoot the Slaves and randomize but theunwantedbeing said that 10-15 hits was "usually way more" than a direct hit would manage. Now of course there are some units way smaller than 10 models, be they support units or already whittled down but it doesn't strike me as the norm.

Never mind, this isn't a rules question anyways.

antihelten
17-03-2011, 06:54
That was FAQ'd because skaven players would sit a warpfire thrower behind a huge block of slaves in combat, and just drop the template on the slaves. It would still randomize between the slaves and enemy, but it kept the warpfire thrower out of harms way. The FAQ took away an even more brutal usage of the rule.

I'm a bit confused about this, since as I read it aiming a template at your slaves isn't allowed to begin with even with the expendable rule.

The BRB lists 2 restrictions in this regard.

a. "models are not permitted to shoot at enemies that are engaged in close combat" (BRB p. 39)

b "you cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit" (BRB p. 39)

and as far as I can tell the expendable rule only allows you to ignore a, or am I completely wrong here?

Masque
17-03-2011, 10:22
The problem is that you are not prevented from firing warpfire throwers into the slaves if you fire it in such a way that it could possibly not hit them as the rule only prevent firing where your models "...will be hit" rather than "...could be hit". Otherwise if you enforce this rule too strongly you won't be allowed to fire stonethrowers within 10" of a combat or your own units.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-03-2011, 11:40
Isn't there an explicit exception for stonethrowers deviating onto anything?

jaxom
17-03-2011, 17:51
The explicit exception is contained in the word "intentionally". You cannot intentionally target your own models. For templates that scatter, that is generally accepted as "don't place it where it hits your own models if you are actually on target". For things which travel in a line it is fuzzier but not worded the same way a cannon is (could not possibly hit).

Regarding how many hits you get when you randomize, you're just not thinking like a Skaven.

My slaves charge your monster. I shoot your monster with a template I get *one* hit. I shoot my slaves I get 15. Against a ranked opponent who is also on 20s this is a wash but in other cases not so much.

Dorack
17-03-2011, 19:25
My slaves charge your monster. I shoot your monster with a template I get *one* hit. I shoot my slaves I get 15.

Donīt you think that using slave models as hit multipliers is a bit strange, to put it tactfully?

FestHest
18-03-2011, 07:24
And using them as 'speedbumps' is less tactful?

jaxom
18-03-2011, 20:37
Donīt you think that using slave models as hit multipliers is a bit strange, to put it tactfully?

Not only is it strange, it is illegal under 8th edition. As the rules were originally written in 7th it's exactly how they were used, however.

As for what I consider strange, fluffy, in-character or fun, none of that has anything to do with the rules as they are written. The first time I saw those rules I laughed out loud at the thought of 20 flaming Skavenslaves running up and jumping into the mouth of a Dragon to give him indigestion.

Regardless of how you manage to avoid the situation I described, I think forcing Skaven to not intentionally shoot at Slaves misses something about what a Skavenslave is and how they're treated in every bit of fluff that ever comes up.