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PoorFlory
12-03-2011, 21:17
Thinking about building a Savage Orc / Forrest Goblin list for tournaments.

Competitive enough? I know it's a vague question, but wondering if it's even an option.

Thanks.

stainawarjar
12-03-2011, 21:20
I am considering the same army, but I do not think there really is a way to make them super-competitive.

snottlebocket
12-03-2011, 21:25
Doesn't hurt that you're basing the army on one of the best infantry units in the list. Savage orcs are perfect for this edition.

ftayl5
12-03-2011, 22:03
Savage Orc / Forrest Goblin

Green = Good
Red= Bad

Regular spiders really aren't great, compared to Wolf Riders, they suck and the Arachnarok is scary, but so big it can get shot down very quickly.
Savage Orcs are great though, and such an army would be competitive, if not optimal.

Storak
12-03-2011, 22:35
Doesn't hurt that you're basing the army on one of the best infantry units in the list. Savage orcs are perfect for this edition.

i do not get, what is so great about savage orcs. nobody was using them. now the second choppa got 1 point less expensive, and people claim they are fantastic. Big Uns got a little cheaper as well, another 2 points.

but in general, when i place around 30 savage orcs, my WoC opponent will put around 20 chaos warriors on the other side.

i simply fail to see, how that is a good thing.

snottlebocket
12-03-2011, 22:52
i do not get, what is so great about savage orcs. nobody was using them. now the second choppa got 1 point less expensive, and people claim they are fantastic. Big Uns got a little cheaper as well, another 2 points.

but in general, when i place around 30 savage orcs, my WoC opponent will put around 20 chaos warriors on the other side.

i simply fail to see, how that is a good thing.

They're relatively cheap but they output an amazing amount of attacks with respectable strength thanks to the choppa rule.

They were pretty amazing in the 7th edition as well but very few people were willing to buy large amounts of the metal models. One of my regular opponents ran a unit of savage orc big'uns with a savage hero in the 7th edition, with spears I think. Those things chainsawed straight through elite dwarf blocks.

A savage orc big'un with an extra handweapon costs 11 points in the 8th edition. That get's you infantry with ws4, str4 (5 on a charge), 3 attacks each and a 5+ ward if you take a shaman with the shrunken head. That's downright amazing, that's some of the hardest hitting infantry in the game. Cheap enough to form a large unit and a 5+ ward is excellent protection while they run into combat.

Regular savage orcs are fantastic. Savage big'uns are downright monstrous. More so when you take into account how well you can support them with other units and magic.

Ghremdal
12-03-2011, 23:36
but in general, when i place around 30 savage orcs, my WoC opponent will put around 20 chaos warriors on the other side.



Thing is, Savage Orc Big Un's are almost as good (0.27 vs 0.29 wounds per attack, using halberd Khorne warriors) as Chaos Warriors, but since they are 2/3 the points of a warrior you can get more models in base to base contact, and thus win the combat. Even if they don't break, they just lost their frenzy. Which means the SOBU will easily win the following even on a model to model basis.

And if you can get armor piercing on your Savages, they even win first round on a model to model basis.

Kalandros
13-03-2011, 01:57
Synergy of the new spells (Lil Waaagh's Armor Piercing and possible reroll hit/wound, Lil waaagh's -D6 Initiative, Big waaagh's reroll to hit, etc) with Savages makes them beastly.

And you can upgrade them to 5+ ward save too.
Just sucks they cannot ever get a magic banner (for the foot sluggers).

ftayl5
13-03-2011, 05:49
On the other hand, Savage Orc Character are pretty... bad? Less than average at least. The upgrade is way too many points for a 6+ and Frenzy.

Savage Boars are pretty amazing too and cheap enough to take a large-ish amount of them. Flank charge with them then cast the signature little waagh spell. Kiss the enemy unit goodbye. (depending on what that unit is of course)

Turtleking
13-03-2011, 05:52
The savage orc craze will die down soon. Until then, best thing since sliced bread!

Kiras of the flame
13-03-2011, 07:21
It's a bit funny when someone's jaw drops after their heavy block of infantry got ripped to shreads by orcs who's idea of protection is a Loincloth and some half-crazed loon who waves a stick around and slaps blue paint all over their faces... probably the same individual who's jumping up and down your corpse right now...

Orc Shaman's are good... and add a good ol lucky Shrunken 'ead and we're talking about some 'ard boyz.... you could have a savage orc big boss as the standard bearer... though such things are reckless... fun as hell... but reckless...

Storak
13-03-2011, 07:43
Thing is, Savage Orc Big Un's are almost as good (0.27 vs 0.29 wounds per attack, using halberd Khorne warriors) as Chaos Warriors, but since they are 2/3 the points of a warrior you can get more models in base to base contact, and thus win the combat. Even if they don't break, they just lost their frenzy. Which means the SOBU will easily win the following even on a model to model basis.

my calculation gives a different result for the warriors (which hit on 3+).
the warriors will kill 0.37 orcs per attack.

(you included the 5+ save via the shaman in your calculation. you cannot do this, while still claiming that the savage orcs are cheaper than the warriors. against warriors, the shaman will be dead when his fellows start making ward saves..)

on the next combat phase, even if the orcs won the first one, they go down to 0.21 kills per attack. this is a drop by about 22% while the chaos warriors (if still 2 ranks deep) would lose 25% of attacks by losing frenzy.

you also di not factor in, that the warriors will strike first, so all calculations your outnumbering calculations have to be done AFTER one round of suffering casualties.



And if you can get armor piercing on your Savages, they even win first round on a model to model basis.

and if the warriors get a spell of? and if animosity forces you into a bad charge?

Djekar
13-03-2011, 09:41
I'd say savages are a competitive options. As pointed out, the Big 'Uns are some of our most efficient infantry in an edition that thrives on infantry.

As far as forest goblins, I'm afraid that spider riders are pants (most things that I want fast cav to do, I would rather do with naked wolf riders), and the Arachnarok is iffy too. If you felt like converting common goblins on a theme (adding warpaint and feathers and what-have-you) they could be alright. The skulkers and 1/2 point upgrades help to shore up the massive difference between them and Night Goblins from the 7th ed. book.

Basically using savages as your hitters and [forest] goblins for ranks/steadfast and you're not doing too much worse than a standard O&G list. Plus, hey - theme. It's a theme a lot of people are going to be doing with the advent of plastic savages and the BASOD (Big Ass Spider Of Doom) but it still should work pretty well.

Ghremdal
13-03-2011, 13:24
my calculation gives a different result for the warriors (which hit on 3+).
the warriors will kill 0.37 orcs per attack.

(you included the 5+ save via the shaman in your calculation. you cannot do this, while still claiming that the savage orcs are cheaper than the warriors. against warriors, the shaman will be dead when his fellows start making ward saves..)

on the next combat phase, even if the orcs won the first one, they go down to 0.21 kills per attack. this is a drop by about 22% while the chaos warriors (if still 2 ranks deep) would lose 25% of attacks by losing frenzy.

you also di not factor in, that the warriors will strike first, so all calculations your outnumbering calculations have to be done AFTER one round of suffering casualties.



I factored in the Warriors hitting on a 3+, and yes with a 5++ ward save they deal 0.296 wounds per attack. The reason I included the shrunken head into consideration is that I think it will be a very popular upgrade.

The shaman will most likely live through the first turn of combat (since warriors will need a minimum of 13.5 attacks to kill him), and the most attacks they can get off vs him is 12. That is if you place him poorly. A well placed Shaman will get targeted by 4 attacks per round of combat, ensuring that he is alive for a long time.

Including the Shrunken Head is almost like including a mark; the cost per model is even about the same.

Attacking first is not really a issue when you are looking at units of 30 SOBU's vs a unit of 20 Warriors. In the first round neither the warriors, nor the Savage Orcs will take down enough models for either unit to lose attacks, if they are up to 7 wide (8 for the Orcs).

Chiungalla
13-03-2011, 13:50
The shaman will most likely live through the first turn of combat (since warriors will need a minimum of 13.5 attacks to kill him)

I was under the impression that a minimum of 2 or 3 attacks is needed to kill any shaman, depending if it is a lord-level or a hero-level shaman.

Storak
13-03-2011, 13:51
I factored in the Warriors hitting on a 3+, and yes with a 5++ ward save they deal 0.296 wounds per attack. The reason I included the shrunken head into consideration is that I think it will be a very popular upgrade.

The shaman will most likely live through the first turn of combat (since warriors will need a minimum of 13.5 attacks to kill him), and the most attacks they can get off vs him is 12. That is if you place him poorly. A well placed Shaman will get targeted by 4 attacks per round of combat, ensuring that he is alive for a long time.

Including the Shrunken Head is almost like including a mark; the cost per model is even about the same.

Attacking first is not really a issue when you are looking at units of 30 SOBU's vs a unit of 20 Warriors. In the first round neither the warriors, nor the Savage Orcs will take down enough models for either unit to lose attacks, if they are up to 7 wide (8 for the Orcs).

now you factored in a savage orc great shaman! nobody with a working brain would place him into such a dangerous position.

you are constantly giving massive bonuses to the savage orcs!

the shrunken heads cost alone cost quite a few points more than either mark of Tzeentch or Khorne. it is a serious disadvantage of the item, that it must be carried by a vulnerable wizard char in to the front line of combat.

Ghremdal
13-03-2011, 14:16
With the last armybook, I was placing my greatshaman (with warpaint) in a unit of Black Orcs. Of all the time I fielded him like that (20+ games) the only time I lost him was to miscasts.

A T5 5++ ward save 3 wound character placed in a corner of a unit is as safe as can be. I also tend to give him fencers blades to up the amount of stuff he kills, and it protects him more. As I said, with correct placement within the unit and thinking a bit ahead you can place him so he is in base contact with only one enemy model.

The shrunken head costs more then any mark, but since generally you have more models in your unit (20 vs 30 in your example) the cost per model remains nearly the same.

Morkash
13-03-2011, 17:05
The good thing about the Shrunken Head is the fix cost it has (dunno if that is the right expression...I mean the cost stays the same) like the Marks of Chaos. It is roughly worth 15 points for the shaman himself (6++ --> 5++), so in a unit of, say, 39 Big 'unz, the Shrunken Head improves the wardsave for just under 1 point per model. The same reason why the Mark of Khorne gets better the more GW Marauders you take, you pay the same price, no matter if you mark 10 models or 50.

As Ghremdal said, with good positioning (corner of the unit is good most times) and WS 10/T5/5+ ward, a Great Shaman comes in for under 300 points while being
1.) good in the Magic Phase
2.) quite resilient
3.) ok in meele. He can add a few attacks to the SO horde...3 S4/5 attacks with WS 10 are ok, 6 S7/8 with Fists of Gork are crazy (even if a one trick pony ;))

Kevlar
13-03-2011, 18:25
How long would it take those savage orcs to get through 150 skaven slaves though? Long enough for the cannons and warp fire throwers to roast them!

Kalandros
13-03-2011, 18:26
150 slaves in one unit? Please do bring it on. Easily flanked, easily disrupted, easily explodin' all over the place.

Morkash
13-03-2011, 18:27
You people start to annoy me.
The book may not be perfect, but we have to make the best of it, no?
Germany also had the best tanks in WW2 and still got crushed. Superiority is no winning guarantee.
I'd like to see 150 slaves. Even with deviation, lobbas and Foot of Gork should hit it. And the Savages will kill enough of them to drown them in their own inability, even more so with 'Ere we go.

Kevlar
13-03-2011, 21:10
150 slaves in one unit? Please do bring it on. Easily flanked, easily disrupted, easily explodin' all over the place.

Nope. three units, staggered one after another!

Getting to the flanks will be tough, thats what the Rat Ogres and Stormvermin are guarding.

Storak
13-03-2011, 23:46
I factored in the Warriors hitting on a 3+, and yes with a 5++ ward save they deal 0.296 wounds per attack. The reason I included the shrunken head into consideration is that I think it will be a very popular upgrade.

The shaman will most likely live through the first turn of combat (since warriors will need a minimum of 13.5 attacks to kill him), and the most attacks they can get off vs him is 12. That is if you place him poorly. A well placed Shaman will get targeted by 4 attacks per round of combat, ensuring that he is alive for a long time.

Including the Shrunken Head is almost like including a mark; the cost per model is even about the same.

Attacking first is not really a issue when you are looking at units of 30 SOBU's vs a unit of 20 Warriors. In the first round neither the warriors, nor the Savage Orcs will take down enough models for either unit to lose attacks, if they are up to 7 wide (8 for the Orcs).

you are using extremely optimistic assumptions to give (barely) a win to the orcs. (the orcs do 7.3 kills, the warriors 7.1)
on this tiny difference you risk the live of a 200 point great shaman!

in a more realistic situation (both 10 wide, to give the savage horde), the warriors striking first would make a serious difference and they would win the combat.

just to get things straight: 30 savage orc BigUns are 10 points more expensive than 20 halberd armed warriors. and to make matters worse, toe orcs also pay more for the shrunken head ward save improvement, than the warriors pay for the frenzy banner. and of course, command is also more expensive for the orcs.

so calculations should give the warriors 2 additional fighters or the mark of tzeentch. ouch.

the savage orcs are not good. the SO BigUns are a little bit better, but still not good. i doubt that people will field them in a couple of months.

Turtleking
14-03-2011, 03:53
I've already given up on Sorcs, just not as good as the hype wheel I guess....

Now Squig herds, that's a different story!

russellmoo
14-03-2011, 04:46
My guess is he meant 3 units of 50- but in spirit-

Round 1 17 die, lose 1 or 2
For at least the next 10 rounds (assuming a horde of 40 savorc bigunz)
13 rats die, lose 1 or 2 orcs

Question answered- 50 slaves pop at the end of round 2, not what you want from slaves, generally you want them to stick for 3 rounds of combat-

Wait- 150 slaves might be in horde formation-

Round 1 (brace yourself) 27 rats die, 1 and 2/3 orcs die
For the next 8 rounds
22 rats die, lose 1 and 2/3 orcs

Five rounds to pop them- but remember that even with shooting them down their out put doesn't diminish that much
with 2 ranks- they will still kill 18 rats, and 13 with just a complete front rank- they will continue to win combat until reduced to 4 models- i.e. you will have to wipe out the entire unit one way or the other-

PoorFlory
16-03-2011, 15:23
Well, I've decided to go ahead and start building atleast the Savage Orc part of the list, so I have a few questions.

1. Savage Orc Boar Boyz, spears and shields or add. hand weapons?

2. Are Stabbas worth it in S. Orc boy units?

and 3. Wurrzag worth the points in a 2250 list, or just build a shaman?

Thanks.

Gilbert Gosseyn III
17-03-2011, 01:18
Green = Good
Red= Bad

Regular spiders really aren't great, compared to Wolf Riders, they suck and the Arachnarok is scary, but so big it can get shot down very quickly.
Savage Orcs are great though, and such an army would be competitive, if not optimal.

I don't agree. Orcish warfare rule #47 says:

"Ya don't bring spidey gobbos into battle for da gobbos, ya bring'em for da spideys!"

A spider is I 4 and has poisoned attacks. Non that bad. And they're great against Dwarves.


i do not get, what is so great about savage orcs. nobody was using them. now the second choppa got 1 point less expensive, and people claim they are fantastic. Big Uns got a little cheaper as well, another 2 points.

but in general, when i place around 30 savage orcs, my WoC opponent will put around 20 chaos warriors on the other side.

i simply fail to see, how that is a good thing.

The fact is, now you have Shrunken Head. And now Big 'Uns only cost 2 points more, not 4.


On the other hand, Savage Orc Character are pretty... bad? Less than average at least. The upgrade is way too many points for a 6+ and Frenzy.

Savage Boars are pretty amazing too and cheap enough to take a large-ish amount of them. Flank charge with them then cast the signature little waagh spell. Kiss the enemy unit goodbye. (depending on what that unit is of course)

A 6+ upgradable to 5+, so not bad after all.

You need 2 ranks in order to negate rank bonus to the enemy and, as I explained in another post, orcish cavalries are better in a single rank.


How long would it take those savage orcs to get through 150 skaven slaves though? Long enough for the cannons and warp fire throwers to roast them!

Well, you're definitely right. At least partially. I'm doing my maths on this subject and I'm trying to compare different hordes one against another, so while I could agree 100 Night Goblin with spear can beat the c**p out of 40 Savages (they can even without Warp cannons) I'm not totally sure about slaves.

Gilbert Gosseyn III
17-03-2011, 01:31
Well, I've decided to go ahead and start building atleast the Savage Orc part of the list, so I have a few questions.

1. Savage Orc Boar Boyz, spears and shields or add. hand weapons?

2. Are Stabbas worth it in S. Orc boy units?

and 3. Wurrzag worth the points in a 2250 list, or just build a shaman?

Thanks.

1. I'd go with spears on normal SOBB leaving the Big un's option to infantry. This way you're getting 2 St 5 attacks in charge (+1 for spear, +1 for Choppa rule)

2. Yes and not. They do 1d3 impact hits on the first round of combat, but for the same price you can have another 2 models which will deal their damage even after the first round. I'd personally go without Stabbas.

3. I'd better build a Lv. 4 Great Shaman. Ok, Wurrzag is nice but its benefits are not too valuable compared to the fact you can put a Great Shaman with Lucky Shrunken Head in your SO Big 'uns horde. A Great Shaman has T 5 so it is hard to take down and, even if you lose an attack from the first rank you still have a reasonable St 4 character with Choppa and 2 attacks. Plus you can put your savage BSB in the same unit giving him a 5+ save and a good banner like, let's say, Banner of Discipline (so you're not forced to take a Warboss for the leadership) or even Mork's Banner (one of the strongest magic items in the game since it shuts down enemy's magic items but not yours).

russellmoo
17-03-2011, 04:13
Just a thought here, but what if you were to build a character boat, based around savage orc's- take regular savage orcs + level 1 shaman with shrunken head, now field 5 savage orc big bosses- you have 9 point infantry- low enough that you can field a unit of 50+, you will have 20 attacks at str 5, and 5 str 4's, any attacks back have to wound against T5, and against a 5++ ward-

Good idea or too many points?

Chiungalla
17-03-2011, 08:10
Just a thought here, but what if you were to build a character boat, based around savage orc's- take regular savage orcs + level 1 shaman with shrunken head, now field 5 savage orc big bosses- you have 9 point infantry- low enough that you can field a unit of 50+, you will have 20 attacks at str 5, and 5 str 4's, any attacks back have to wound against T5, and against a 5++ ward-

Good idea or too many points?

This way you will not have a musician for quick reforms, what actually can really hurt.
You will have no standard or champion either... and if your opponent kills one of your savage heroes he can strike at the unit again.

And after all it's a frenzied point sink. With 50 savages that are 1.000 points. And without the musician for a quick reform, you are really screwed if your opponent has got any decent units for redirection.

Kalandros
17-03-2011, 10:26
you can have a musician and standard bearer.
They go in the front.

Once in combat, characters use "Make Way" to get to front rank to replace Mus & Banner, at the end of combat, they switch back to their position, mus & banner back in front.