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Yochanan
15-03-2011, 06:09
Here's my first draft for my list for a league I'll be playing over the summer (list can't change for duration).

I've only played a couple games @2000 points, so I'm pretty new to this. I'm not playing with any Nurgle. The list has 179 points left.

Bloodthirster (Firestorm Blade, Armor of Khorne, Immortal Fury) =515
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne) =115
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne) =115
Herald of Tzeentch (Master of Sorc, Disc or Wings? [not sure], Lore of Life) =160

29 Bloodletters (FC) =378
29 Bloodletters (FC) =378

6 Bloodcrushers (Muso, Standard Bearer) =450
3 Flamers =105
3 Flamers =105
-----
2321 (179 points remaining)

Not sure if this is legal. Is the maximum for rares at 2500 points 625? if so, I'm over and need to change something.

Additional models I have access to:
Keeper of secrets
Skulltaker on Juggernaut
29 daemonettes +herald
29 pink horrors +herald
6 fiends
5 seekers
10 flesh hounds
4 more flamers
*I would be willing to purchase more models if it suits my list.

With the points remaining I was thinking of either
upping one or both bloodletters to 40 (120 points each)
adding a unit of flesh hounds
if the cap is not 625, adding a couple fiends

fubukii
15-03-2011, 06:56
you need to include a bsb man, they make daemons sooooo much more reliable.

you are way over on rare allowance ( its 25% of total points of the game you are playing), drop some crushers ( maybe drop 2 ) add more blood letters id like to see both units around 39 if possible but hey nothing is perfect.

Would also be nice to see furies nurglings or fiends in here for war machine hunting.

Yochanan
15-03-2011, 07:52
Thanks for the response fubukii.

I'll probably bump the Bloodletters up to 39 + the herald. Can the unit of 30 become a horde? or does it need to be 40?

What would you suggest I make a bsb? if I have a bloodletter unit of 39+h and 29+h, then the larger one?

I figured as much for the rares. Just thought I better ask. How are hounds at warmachine hunting? fiends are good, for sure. I would need to drop even more from my rares though.

I don't have the other two unfortunately (nurglings and or furies). I could convert some furies pretty easily though :D

Cheers

dragonet111
15-03-2011, 08:17
To be a horde you need a front rank of 10 models. Horde is a formation not a number. You can have a horde a 20 Swordmasters if you want, as long as they have a front rank of 10 minis.

The thing is under 30 models the horde formation is wasted because you can't benefit from the horde rule.

Yochanan
15-03-2011, 08:34
Ah k. Thanks for clearing that up!

dragonet111
15-03-2011, 12:03
I play a horde of 40 horrors with a BSB. It's not as nasty as Bloodletters but the unit is quite impressive, I made a mistake building it, I forgot to plan a reform, if I want to change my horde of 4 ranks of 10 into a unit of 8 ranks of 5 minis it's a living nightmare so I never do that. A horde of Daemon is a HUGE unit 25cm wide and sometime it's not easy to move around with such a big unit.

If you are going horde try to plan reform as well.

I will give your Herald of Tzeentch a small unit of Horrors, it gives you another sorcerer and protect your herald.

RMacDeezy
15-03-2011, 15:30
one thing you could do is drop a crusher and throw one of your HoK's on a juggy with them. you'll still get your big unit of crushers and the flamer support. as for the HoT, if you give him a disc, he'll become cavalry (and thus get no LO,S in your army). in light of that, i'd give him wings and keep him close to your bloodletters. as for a bsb, you have several options in this army. you can put it on a HoK to ensure its always in the action. you can put it on the flying HoT (90% of the time, this is what i do). this allows you to a) keep it safe and b) put it where you need those re-rolls quickly. icon of despair works well on both of these options, though standard of sundering may be good for the additional magic protection and if you face alot of high elves, lizards, other daemons or vampires (master of the black arts), as light magic can be pretty popular with those armies. you could also toss your bsb on the HoK on the jugger for the 1+ save. this option is the best protected and i might even consider the +D3 CR banner if you go this route. hounds are a great support unit. they hit hard so can fill duel roles like WM duty/chasing skinks/fast cav hunting and hit hard enough to be committed to flank charges to get some kills and stack up CR. i'd use a unit of 5-8 for that. if you're not opposed to breaking your tzeentch/khorne theme, the daemonettes/HoS banner of ecstatsy+siren song combo can really open up some great opportunities for you. one time i used it to open a 40 strong grave guard horde to a flank charge from my bloodcrushers who destroyed the entire unit (with attendant vampire) in ONE ROUND OF COMBAT. just some food for thought...

Wade Wilson
15-03-2011, 16:17
A herald of khorne with armour or khorne and the BSB is fairly reliable thanks to its 3+5++ sv (and nasty combat abilitites). I would use him in the larger block myself. As much as i love a +1 Strenght flaming attacks weapon remember that your oppoent can get easy access to a character with a 2++ ward saves against flaming attacks. Nothing worse than your 500+ point model getting stuck in combat with a hero on a pegasus for 3 turns...i learned that the hard way i did....

Yochanan
15-03-2011, 21:17
dragonet111,

For the reason of the sheer size of the unit I would probably only want to run one at 40 and one at 30. I can't see how you could have two hordes moving around, although a lot of people sure like to run two. I'll have to think about the BSB in the bigger unit. I'm not a huge fan of horrors, I see their potential but not just not my sort of thing, a bunker for my herald may be okay though.


RMacDeezy, thanks for your comment. You have really given me a lot of great options to think about. Regarding dropping a crusher for an HoK Juggernaut..this sounds really great - especially since I can keep the flamers and bloodcrushers under 625. I wish I could fit another herald in here without dropping one from my Bloodletters though :(. I can't imagine running bloodletters without one, which would mean dropping the Bloodthirster or Tzeentch herald to meet the 4 character limit :( I'll take your advice and give the Tz herald wings and keep him close to bloodletters. His main purpose is really just to toughen them up.
It seems like a lot of you support the use of a bsb. So it's either the herald on juggernaut, bigger khorne unit or tzeentch herald. I'm not too sure about the Tzeentch herald idea so it will likely be one of the HoK's. I really like the sound of the versatility of the hounds. They would be a good option if I'm sticking with the flamers and juggernauts to max out my rare choices (no fiends). Hahaha, that's brutal what you did to the grave guard. Another problem with putting in Daemonettes means dropping another unit. Probably bloodletters which is not the easiest decision for me.

Wade Wilson,
Thanks for your comment. Yeah he would probably go in the larger unit for sure, or the bloodcrushers. Yeah, I've been worried about that. Are high elves the only army that has access to such a character? would you suggest the axe over the sword?

Cheers and thanks everyone. I'll reformulate the list soon.

dragonet111
15-03-2011, 21:27
dragonet111,
For the reason of the sheer size of the unit I would probably only want to run one at 40 and one at 30. I can't see how you could have two hordes moving around, although a lot of people sure like to run two. I'll have to think about the BSB in the bigger unit. I'm not a huge fan of horrors, I see their potential but not just not my sort of thing, a bunker for my herald may be okay though.


I understand, I'm a Tzeentch player and I probably try to corrupt you and make you change your army, you know we Tzeentch players we love change :)

RMacDeezy
15-03-2011, 21:45
RMacDeezy, thanks for your comment. You have really given me a lot of great options to think about. Regarding dropping a crusher for an HoK Juggernaut..this sounds really great - especially since I can keep the flamers and bloodcrushers under 625. I wish I could fit another herald in here without dropping one from my Bloodletters though :(. I can't imagine running bloodletters without one, which would mean dropping the Bloodthirster or Tzeentch herald to meet the 4 character limit :(
is this limit on characters a rule of the league you'll be playing in? if so, you could run the main unit of 40 with the herald and knock the smaller unit down to 25 or so for general support. i do love a herald with the crushers, but from a competitive standpoint, they're better in a horde for obvious reasons. crushers do just fine without a herald, letters need one to take down the more elite enemies in the game. i think either choice is good though.



I'll take your advice and give the Tz herald wings and keep him close to bloodletters. His main purpose is really just to toughen them up.
indeed, he'll have a 4+ LO,S and a 4+ ward, he'll be plenty safe. also, consider lore of light on him as well, it is AMAZING with bloodletters and the lower casting values make it very level 2 friendly.



It seems like a lot of you support the use of a bsb. So it's either the herald on juggernaut, bigger khorne unit or tzeentch herald. I'm not too sure about the Tzeentch herald idea so it will likely be one of the HoK's.
like i said, i go for the flying BSB herald but really any of the options you have will be good.



I really like the sound of the versatility of the hounds. They would be a good option if I'm sticking with the flamers and juggernauts to max out my rare choices (no fiends). Hahaha, that's brutal what you did to the grave guard.
yes, they would fill a niche in your list that nothing else really does. and yeah, the vampire made way but fluffed his attacks and my crushers did 22 wounds or so. needless to say, i won combat by ALOT and the unit crumbled.



Another problem with putting in Daemonettes means dropping another unit. Probably bloodletters which is not the easiest decision for me. agreed, it is definitely more difficult to use, but i never leave home without my girls.

last bit though, any reason you decided not to include the +D6" charge icon?

Yochanan
16-03-2011, 01:58
is this limit on characters a rule of the league you'll be playing in?

At 2500 aren't you only allowed to use 4 characters (lords/heroes)?


indeed, he'll have a 4+ LO,S and a 4+ ward, he'll be plenty safe. also, consider lore of light on him as well, it is AMAZING with bloodletters and the lower casting values make it very level 2 friendly.

I'll have to look at lore of light. I've actually never used it.


yes, they would fill a niche in your list that nothing else really does. and yeah, the vampire made way but fluffed his attacks and my crushers did 22 wounds or so. needless to say, i won combat by ALOT and the unit crumbled.

Haha, damn. That's brutal!


last bit though, any reason you decided not to include the +D6" charge icon?

On the Bloodcrushers? sweet ignorance I suppose. I wasn't sure if it was worth using.

Yochanan
16-03-2011, 02:19
I understand, I'm a Tzeentch player and I probably try to corrupt you and make you change your army, you know we Tzeentch players we love change :)

Haha, touche. I have 40 horrors, 2 heralds, a disc and 10 flamers, but I only like to use them as filler between masses of red!

RMacDeezy
16-03-2011, 03:18
actually, the percentage allowance is the only restriction to characters, they did away with the slots. and as far as the lore of light, just take a gander at it, it is widely regarded as one of the most competitive lores for daemons (and rightly so). life is good but i think you really need a lord of change (and his magic levels and powerful daemonic gifts) to take advantage of it. and yes the grave guard massacre was brutal ;) i'd try to squeeze the +D6" charge icon onto the big letter horde. the crushers don't really need it with swiftstride and all, but it can really make a difference on the letters and get them into that first critical combat quickly

Yochanan
16-03-2011, 03:33
"actually, the percentage allowance is the only restriction to characters, they did away with the slots." oh really?? what's the allowance? if I can add a Bloodthirster and 4 heralds I would be beyond stoked.

The icon on the bloodletters sounds like a good plan. My first few games at 2000 points I had several failed charges. Every turn they are out of combat seems like such a shame.

dragonet111
16-03-2011, 08:48
% for warhammer work that way.

25% max Lords
25% max Heroes
25% minimum Core units
50% max Special
25% max Rare

Under 3000points (3000points armies are called grand armies) you are limited to 3 identical Special and 2 identical Rare (so no 3 units of Flamers, ....).

Wade Wilson
16-03-2011, 11:15
Wade Wilson,
Thanks for your comment. Yeah he would probably go in the larger unit for sure, or the bloodcrushers. Yeah, I've been worried about that. Are high elves the only army that has access to such a character? would you suggest the axe over the sword?

Cheers and thanks everyone. I'll reformulate the list soon.

Alas in the main rulebook there are at least 2 items that i can see that provide a 2++ ward save against flaming attacks. One is a helmet, the other a charm. Both are really cheap and most armies can access them.Its not the end of the world though and a bloodthirster with +1 S is very very nasty. just somthing to be aware of. Alot of people are taking the axe of khorne because killing blow is fantastic. To be honest id go for a spell breaker if you can fit it in so that you have some extra magic defense against a 'super' spell that your level 2 might struggle to dispell.

Yochanan
17-03-2011, 06:40
Thanks dragonet111. That's what I figured, I just wasn't sure. This means I can do what I want to with the list :D

In my first few games I had spell breaker. I could try to fit it in to the updated list. I'll see what I think of the axe, I have to admit I like the +1 S ;)

Yochanan
17-03-2011, 06:52
Updated list..hopefully an improvement.

Changes:

-1 Bloodcrusher
+ 1 HOK (AOK, Juggernaut)
+7 Bloodletters

Decided on wings over Disc on Herald of Tzeentch

Bloodthirster (Firestorm Blade, Armor of Khorne, Immortal Fury) =515
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne) =115
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne) =115
Herald of Khrone (Armor of Khorne, Juggernaut) =165
Herald of Tzeentch (Master of Sorc, Wings) =160 (lore of life)

36 Bloodletters (FC) =462
29 Bloodletters (FC) =378

5 Bloodcrushers (Muso, Standard Bearer) =380
3 Flamers =105
3 Flamers =105
-----
2500

Concerns:
- am I lacking warmachine hunting?
- Should I take the bloodletters back down to 29 and fit in a bsb, D6 charge icon etc?

dragonet111
17-03-2011, 09:27
If you really are concern about warmachines you can get rid of them with the Bloodthirsters it's a bit overkill but it's a flying monster of death fast enough to hunt down cannons. Flamers are good for that.

or

you can go full Khorne and replace Flamers with Flesh Hounds.

Do you know if your league will be very competitive??

Phytrion
17-03-2011, 14:46
I've found that blocks of 30 letters (29 + herald) are just fine, especially with the lore of life to buff them up. I run a VERY similar list, the only substantive difference is I only run 3 crushers, and have 2 fiends in replacement - and I run a daemonette block for siren song instead of a second 'letter unit.

The +d6 charge is amazing. I've gotten off game winning charges with that thing.

One item that I swear by, that you may not be able to squeeze into this list, is the -2 leadership banner on the bsb (the name is escaping me). Bloodthirster charges in, does 9 wounds, but the unit is steadfast? That's okay, your leadership 8 is down to 6, and you just failed. Have to take a panic check because I just wiped out a unit? -2 leadership penalty. Against armies like O&G, I zoom up and bash the general quickly to take out his leadership bubble, and then go to town.

dragonet111
17-03-2011, 15:16
One item that I swear by, that you may not be able to squeeze into this list, is the -2 leadership banner on the bsb (the name is escaping me).

The Great Icon of Despair, just for the Badass name that banner needs to be taken :)

thesheriff
17-03-2011, 21:06
Updated list..hopefully an improvement.

Changes:

-1 Bloodcrusher
+ 1 HOK (AOK, Juggernaut)
+7 Bloodletters

Decided on wings over Disc on Herald of Tzeentch

Bloodthirster (Firestorm Blade, Armor of Khorne, Immortal Fury) =515
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne) =115
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne) =115
Herald of Khrone (Armor of Khorne, Juggernaut) =165
Herald of Tzeentch (Master of Sorc, Wings) =160 (lore of life)

36 Bloodletters (FC) =462
29 Bloodletters (FC) =378

5 Bloodcrushers (Muso, Standard Bearer) =380
3 Flamers =105
3 Flamers =105
-----
2500

Concerns:
- am I lacking warmachine hunting?
- Should I take the bloodletters back down to 29 and fit in a bsb, D6 charge icon etc?

Looks really good. I run the dual bloodletter hordes in 2k, and it never dissapoints.

Get a bsb (at the expense of two bloodletters) and get the icon on the bigger bloodletter unit.

thesheriff

Yochanan
18-03-2011, 03:09
dragonet111,

Thanks again for more feedback. Yeah, I've been thinking about dropping the 6 flamers for 4 Fiends (2 units of 2) actually (10 points difference). 6 flamers =an average of 18 S4 attacks. 4 Fiends = 16 S4 rending attacks and stomp attacks. They can also flank charge things easily and tie them up for a couple rounds. I did this with 3 ranks of bloodlettes the other day in a mirror match (twas fun!)
I'm not completely sold on this though, just brainstorming. Regading the competitiveness. I'm not too sure. From what I've heard they don't want anything super nasty. But it depends on the player. There's some nasty skaven players that will probably bring everything they can fit into 2500 :(. Where do you feel the list sits right now?

Phytrion.

That's actually quite funny. My original list was pretty much exactly what you run. I use to have 29 Daemonettes + Herald with siren song. But decided to beef up the Crushers and add more flamers (which may turn into fiends). Between the d6 charge icon, bsb and the -2 leadership banner..i think these are all doable except I would need to take the larger bloodletters unit down to 29 + herald again. What do you all think?

Thesheriff,

Sounds like you've sort of answered my question ;). by the time I get the bsbs, icon and banner I will have equal bloodletter units. Should the bsb, icon and -2ld banner all go in a bloodletter squad or any of it on the bloodcrushers?

Cheers

Yochanan
18-03-2011, 06:28
Bloodthirster (Firestorm Blade, Armor of Khorne, Immortal Fury) =515
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne, bsb, icon of endless war) =165
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne, icon of endless war) =140
Herald of Khrone (Armor of Khorne, Juggernaut) =165
Herald of Tzeentch (Master of Sorc, Wings) =160 (lore of life)

29 Bloodletters (FC) =378
29 Bloodletters (FC) =378

5 Bloodcrushers (Muso, Standard Bearer) =380
2 Fiends =110
2 Fiends =110
-----
2501

-3 Flamers
-3 Flamers
-7 Bloodletters (24)
+BSB, Icon of Endless War
+Icon of Endless War
+2 Fiends
+2 Fiends

Improvement or no? put an icon on each bloodletter unit. The -2ld banner is great, but 75 points is hard to invest in when my model count is already pretty low.

thesheriff
18-03-2011, 08:35
Where have the flamers gone?

Icon of endless war on the unit.

I actually find banner of unholy victory is good on bloodletters. By my horde is usually bigger, removing the risk of steadfast. Dunno...

Thesheriff

Yochanan
18-03-2011, 18:28
Where have the flamers gone?

Icon of endless war on the unit.

I actually find banner of unholy victory is good on bloodletters. By my horde is usually bigger, removing the risk of steadfast. Dunno...

Thesheriff

Haha, is this a hint to keep the flamers and not replace them with fiends?

RMacDeezy
18-03-2011, 19:01
both are awesome but if you have to choose one above the other, choose the flamers.

dragonet111
19-03-2011, 09:32
both are awesome but if you have to choose one above the other, choose the flamers.

I agree, flamers are betters (and look better IMO)



Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne, bsb, icon of endless war =165
Herald of Khorne (Armor of Khorne, icon of endless war) =140


You can't give this to a Herald. this is an option for the standard bearer of a Bloodletters unit.
If I were you I would give one to the Bloodcrushers.
I like to give Obsidian Armour to a Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut, it makes an almost perfect character killer (you play a Bloodthirster so it's probably not needed)

Edit : don't post point costs it's against the forum's rules :)

RMacDeezy
19-03-2011, 13:10
notice also that daemonic icons were FAQ'ed to be magic standards in all respects and thus are now "unique" like all magic items, meaning limited to one each.


I agree, flamers are betters (and look better IMO)

i know, fiend models are hideous

thesheriff
19-03-2011, 21:16
You can points cost. Just not individually.

Make sure the icon goes on the bigger bloodletter unit.

w3rm
20-03-2011, 18:34
To be a horde you need a front rank of 10 models. Horde is a formation not a number. You can have a horde a 20 Swordmasters if you want, as long as they have a front rank of 10 minis.

The thing is under 30 models the horde formation is wasted because you can't benefit from the horde rule.

Errrm not entirely true. I run a unit of 25 tombgaurd in horde. you need all the attacks you can get with these guys.

dragonet111
20-03-2011, 21:35
Errrm not entirely true. I run a unit of 25 tombgaurd in horde. you need all the attacks you can get with these guys.

yes I was a bit fast in my explanation. I wanted to say that you need at least a third rank in a 10 model wide unit to benefit from the horde rule.

BlackVomit
21-03-2011, 07:08
What about magic defense? No spell breakers? or am I missing something?

RMacDeezy
21-03-2011, 23:13
with bloodletters' magic resistance and their stat lines, they're pretty resistant to damage spells. better to use those points for wings to keep the caster out of harms way imo.