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Lord Balian
16-03-2011, 21:27
So I'm starting a HE army here, with 2 starter box set to begin with. After going through the army book a bit I saw the rule that the seagaurd have about always fighting with an extra rank. I'm new to 8th Ed rules, only playing one game so far, so let me see if I understand this correctly.

HE spearmen will get to fight in 3 ranks on the charge, rather then just 2.
HE spearmen will fight in 2 ranks normally, rather then just 1.

HE spearmen will get to fight in 3 ranks normally, if they go 10 wide, because of the Horde rule? Would that work in that manner? If they go 10 wide, is it still only 3 ranks on the charge?

Also, is it worth it, to have a large enough unit of seaguard to go 10 wide, with 4 to 5 ranks deep? Or is that just too expensive for on unit?

Thanks

drear
16-03-2011, 21:34
high elves have the rule that they always fight in an extra rank, so you get 3 ranks basic from this rule spears or not.

front rank, supporting attacks , fight in an extra rank.
when you add spears you get a 4th rank of attacks if charged. and from then on in combat.

going into a horde allowed a 3rd rank of attacks, so you get 3 ranks, fight in an extra rank, + spears for 5 ranks of attacks.


hordes of seaguard are amazing, atleast imo. 5 ranks of fighting + 30 plus volley fire from shooting and 20 stand and shoot reaction shots? woop

Matt.Wood88
16-03-2011, 21:36
Well, because of the new step up rule in 8th ed everyone fights in 2 ranks, and those with spears fight in an extra rank and then also high elves with spears fight in an extra rank. Although you can never use the extra rank with spears if you charge, so high elves with spears who dont horde up fight in 4 ranks when not charging, and with horde they fight in 5 ranks again when not charging.
Hope this helps :)
Cheers
Matt

Zywus
16-03-2011, 21:42
High Elves with Spears:

Non Horde Charging - 3 Ranks
Non Horde Standing still- 4 Ranks

Horde Charging - 4 Ranks
Horde Standing still- 5 Ranks

The large seaguard unit may indeed be worth the point but is probably best not fielded in smaller games.

ewar
16-03-2011, 22:10
high elves have the rule that they always fight in an extra rank,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not all high elves who get this - just their spearmen.

Other than that, everyone else has pointed out how many ranks they fight in.

FestHest
16-03-2011, 22:22
Its the special ability:"Martial Prowess"
And yes, only the Spearmen and Lothern Sea Guard have this.

Lord Balian
16-03-2011, 23:24
Wow amazing, that is very cool to find out how that works. Thanks for clearing up exactly how the game rule is too, because I wasn't 100% on that either. So that helps me out.

So let me get this right. A unit of 50 seagaurd, 10 wide and 5 deep, gets to fight in all 5 ranks, 4 on the charge. This would indeed be a huge unit, but I could see it being viable in a 2000+ game.

Now what's this about volley fire? The one game I played was vs OnG and the guy said his goblin archers had a rule called volley fire, so we looked it up and saw what it did. So do the seaguard have that rule, or is it just something any unit of archers can opt to do?

ewar
16-03-2011, 23:27
All bowfire can use the volley fire rule (means ranks after the first 2 can shoot, but only half the models).

Chris_
17-03-2011, 00:13
All bowfire can use the volley fire rule (means ranks after the first 2 can shoot, but only half the models).And only if you didn't move.

Lordy
17-03-2011, 00:21
hordes of seaguard are amazing, atleast imo. 5 ranks of fighting + 30 plus volley fire from shooting and 20 stand and shoot reaction shots? woop

Sea Guard hordes are anything but amazing, I even took a horrible block of Sea Idiots to a recent tournament just to fill core, they were shocking, 400+ points of S3 is just terrible.

13pts a pop is too much, they should be 11 and archers around 9

Stick with the Spearmen, although almost as poor, they are at least cheaper.

ScytheSwathe
17-03-2011, 00:37
Stick with the Spearmen, although almost as poor, they are at least cheaper.
Which helps how if youre going to use them to fill up core?
You went to a competition without working your core into the main game plan?
You were relying on them to kill stuff at S3?
You werent relying on them to provide ranks and flank opportunities?
You didnt think of Mind Razor?

etc

Lordy
17-03-2011, 01:11
Of course, I took the Lore of Shadow, but they just get run over, T3 5+ armour save for 13pts becomes a liability.

I'd take nice blocks of Spearmen and archers next time, Sea Idiots wont be used again ever! Well ok they will but not in tournaments :D

In their defence they only went due to lack of painted models, and they did manage to kill a treekin unit by having a musician and then run them down, Hoorah!

theunwantedbeing
17-03-2011, 01:24
If you buy 50 of them, it's 650pts.
For that you can get 50 spearmen and 18 archers.

Given in a hoarde you'll be getting 20 shots anyway, it's not really all that bad a deal.
Less bodies of course, but your shooty unit needs a lot more kills to cut its effectiveness, and as a volley fire its much better.

They're not amazing but if you want just 1 unit to fill the core requirements, your better off with seaguard because they are pricer :)

Anyway, screw competitiveness.
You take what looks cool, not what has the most cost effective rules.

ScytheSwathe
17-03-2011, 18:51
Honestly, spearmen are the crux of my high elf army, and i find it quite successful. I treat sea guard as my reserves, able to do soemthing while they wait for the right moment, they also bunker my archmage, as they wont be on the front line anyway. By the time i charge them in, its generally safe to let my archmage wander off by himself, or its too late to matter if he bites it. They also constitute the only true shooting in my army, where they can take out fast cav without soaking up too many points. All so more spearmen can be added in!

drear
17-03-2011, 19:20
i never see a issue with seaguard, yes you can have two seperate units , spearmen and archers. but its giving your opponent 1 unit easily broken and destroyed ( archers) and a unit that can do 1 role well ..stick in combat.

with seaguard you have 1 unit, so your guarding points. that can move about the feild and hold back, shooting for a turn or two, and then receive a charge and act as spearmen. if your taking the right magic those spearmen should be able to hold against charges and get the benefit of a stand and shoot.

Blademeister
18-03-2011, 20:00
Lothern Sea Guard fight in 4 ranks when charged (5 if it's a horde). They also can stand and shoot due to them having bows in their wargear. Lothern sea Guard are great for guarding flanks etc.

Gamu
18-03-2011, 20:24
You forget something about lsg.

They can be really usefull with the flamming banner, or a character with the amulet of light. The range means you can hit where it's most needed, and the spears mean they cannot be easily tarpited/overruned with weak but fast units.

I'm planning to run 2 units of 20 LSG tomorrow, in a tournament, one with flamming arrows/spears, and another with the amulet of light. I'll tell you if they work.

King_Pash
19-03-2011, 00:41
Just wanted to point out a slight rules misinterpretation that someone might have reading your posts;

While Spears do not let you fight in an extra rank when charging, they do give this bonus in subsequent rounds of combat ie. If my unit of Spearmen charge (4 ranks deep) they will get to fight with 3 full ranks in the first round and with 4 ranks in second and subsequent rounds of combat.

Just thought I might clear that up if there are any new players reading this.

King_Pash
19-03-2011, 00:42
You forget something about lsg.

They can be really usefull with the flamming banner, or a character with the amulet of light. The range means you can hit where it's most needed, and the spears mean they cannot be easily tarpited/overruned with weak but fast units.

I'm planning to run 2 units of 20 LSG tomorrow, in a tournament, one with flamming arrows/spears, and another with the amulet of light. I'll tell you if they work.

Will you be running a Hero in the second LSG unit? It's just that's about the only way I can think of giving them access to the Amulet.

wilsongrahams
19-03-2011, 22:08
The trick to sea guard is to use them as archers with spears rather than spearmen with bows. I often used to use a small spearmen unit on one flank to prevent flank charges on my main battle line. They did not tend to charge forwards like my other combat units. Sea guard can fulfil this role better as they can spend their idle turns shooting. Those extra points would only have been spent on archers anyway, so it is no big deal. They are only an extra 2 points more than archers for armour, shield, spear and martial prowess. That's more than worth it in most battles, but you have to use them right.

A small unit of them used tactically with other spearmen in the army is better than putting a lot of points into a few small or one large unit of sea guard. The cheapness of spearmen gives you the numbers, and the flexibility of sea guard gives you a perfect flank protection that is mobile enough to turn and face enemy units that try to outflank.

Lord Balian
20-03-2011, 15:52
Lots of great info today guys, thanks for all the great clarifications. I can see using the seaguard as archers with spears. I imagined putting a mage in them, and holding them back to shoot and cast. If there is opportunity or need, then charge them.

Gamu
21-03-2011, 07:26
Will you be running a Hero in the second LSG unit? It's just that's about the only way I can think of giving them access to the Amulet.

A hero, or a mage. A mage with the seerstaff of saphery still has enough magic items points left to buy the amulet of light.

One unit of 20 LSG with flamming arrows and spears, and another unit of 20 lsg with magic arrows and spears are a good thing to have in your army.

As some people pointed out, you need some archers in your army, and LSG are just 2 points more than a regular archer.

Chiungalla
21-03-2011, 08:32
i never see a issue with seaguard, yes you can have two seperate units , spearmen and archers. but its giving your opponent 1 unit easily broken and destroyed ( archers) and a unit that can do 1 role well ..stick in combat.

Two separate units are way better.
You can move the spear elves without reducing your shooting effectiveness.
You can even march your spear elves without loosing your shoots.
You can still shoot while the spear elves are in close combat.
Your opponent has two targets to worry about.
The archers have a greater shooting range.

And if your opponent "easily breaks and destroys" a unit of high elf archers sitting in the back of your army, you will have other things to worry about. The usual barrage of archer-hunters will not kill high elf archers, and if anything else gets behind your lines, you will most likely loose anyway.

The main problems:
- You pay the bows for more models then you use them with
- You want to move the sea guard, and from time to time you will even want to march them, which greatly reduces the effectiveness of shooting

wilsongrahams
21-03-2011, 09:57
I still think you are thinking of using sea guard or the other options. I advocate using spearmen and sea guard - just keep the spearmen doin the spearmen job, and use the sea guard instead of archers. The extra cost is a survivability factor and a reserve unit which is a small cost to pay (40pts) to have a useful unit that can abandon it's role and take up another.

Also, they should begin the game in archer formation (10x2 in 20 strong) and use the musician to change formation before anything gets too close that combat is inevitable next turn. The lack of 6" range is not that important in most games and the 3" loss on half range is the keenest loss but still it's only 3" - you can walk forwards that far turn one.

As to moving them etc, that is no different to moving archers, yet I believe you have it in your mind to use them as spearmen still as a main part of the battleline, and that's not where they are at their most effective.

I've tried using 3 blocks of 20 as my main battleline and I failed miserably. I got a few shots off and then didn't have the numbers for combat due to the extra points they cost, but when using one sea guard unit of 20 supporting two 32 strong spearmen units (the same cost) I found that I had a very strong line up, and I didn't have to worry about them falling to small units of skirmishing scouts either as archers are wont to do with no armour (And giving them armour makes them only 1pt cheaper than sea guard so why bother).

In a large battle I'd use spearmen, archers and sea guard, but with different roles for each, and it it what you want the unit to do that defines whether sea guard are worth taking in your force.
The worse reason is because they are expensive and you can fill up your core easily and with one choice. The best, is to have a tactically flexible archer unit to the flank of your main army.

Chiungalla
21-03-2011, 10:03
The lack of 6" range is not that important in most games

Going first and have to move to even get into range, matters at least in half the games.

wilsongrahams
21-03-2011, 10:17
I see what you mean but my own personal belief is that it is of less importance than you say. A unit of archers from any army will struggle to do more than a handful of kills in a turn at long range, and many first turns are spent reacting to your opponents deployment. Being one of the smaller armies means high elves opponent's get to carry on placing units after you've finished deploying in most battles, meaning that you may need to react to a huge force on a flank you believed would be undefended during your own deployment.

Getting those first shots in is very useful in some situations, but I don't think it is as important as the benefits you would gain by being able to reform and perform as spearmen in combat.