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Yochanan
17-03-2011, 02:10
Anyone know if a Keeper of Secrets with Soul Hunger (re-roll to wound), and probably re-roll to hit (ASF, I10) can put out more wounds than a Bloodthirster with firestorm blade, armor of khorne and immortal fury?

I'm not too sure. This makes it difficult for me to decide which to run.

Also, if the kipper can deal more wounds, and it has the versatility of Siren Song, magic and Torment Blade, is its only weakness its survivability? what about if it has Daemonic Robes?

Is its lack of flying a big issue too?

Cheers!

Malorian
17-03-2011, 02:52
If you want survivability then take the keeper with the 100 point upgrade to heal itself each time it does a wound.

If you don't kill it before combat that thing just doesn't die.

RMacDeezy
17-03-2011, 03:30
keeper can be tricked out with some great combos as you said and is definitely the more versatile of the two. that said, a thirster will probably rack up a couple more kills in a game. i wouldn't consider survivability a weakness of the keeper with WS9, T6 and 5W. mine has yet to die, even against cannons as she can run up and siren song some longbeards into combat on the first turn. spirit swallower is a great gift, it feels like cheating. my keeper ate a chaos lord right off the back of his dragon in one round and then b***h slapped the beast the round after and walked away with full wounds due to spirit swallower. thirsters are nasty as well though, there really isn't much aside personal taste that separate the two. imo, all the greater daemons are awesome and can be outfitted competitively.

Yochanan
17-03-2011, 06:33
Yeah spirit swallower is definately nasty. I'm more inclined to bring something versatile than have that much survivabilty.

I'll just have to test them out. I've been playing with the Bloodthirster and enjoying it. The wings have definately been nice.

ftayl5
17-03-2011, 07:20
How about both :)?
But seriously, Keeper can pretty much fly anyway, just can't hop over units. And can't be grounded by certain spells and stuff.
Both are amazing in combat, and the Keeper can get a series of gifts that mean he can't even get attacked back, or he can get Spirit Swallower - gifts that improve his usefulness and/or survivability. This, and that he can be a wizard, mean he can be useful in many situations, and not just relying on combat to make back his points - as a Bloodthirster will be.

Hashulaman
17-03-2011, 09:45
Problem is you can't get much magic out of it if you take Spirit Swallower. At 2500 your Keeper can be at best a level 2 if you give Spirit swallower.

Wade Wilson
17-03-2011, 12:06
Therein lies the rub. A keeper of secrets is one of the best Level 4 wizards in the game, lore of slaanesh has some battle winning spells...but its a helluva point sink. A keeper of secrets with spirit swallower on the other hand will likely only be a level 1 or 2 (i do this sometimes and make him/her a level 2)but rarely die in c/c. Infact, once in close combat the damn thing has to be killed in 1 turn or will leikly make its wounds back thanks to its thunderstomp. A level 2 is nothing to be scoffed at either. However you are till talking about close to 600 points. Even a fully kitted out hirster is never more than 550.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
17-03-2011, 12:10
You do know that the Keeper of Secrets is Slaanesh and not Tzeentch?

sssk
17-03-2011, 13:10
I always thought the keeper was just a much better choice. the bloodthirster kills stuff in combat with varying levels of aptitude... how exciting. The keeper can take interesting gifts etc as well as spells, the ASF and I10 makes it obscene in combat too, so why bother with a bloodthirster when the keeper can be nearly as good, with other benefits?

To be honest though, when I did use a greater deamon, I only ever used a great unclean one (and that was only because I had the model and thought I'd better use it every once in a while). I found that greater deamons can be as good as you like, but they still just ponce around with a 5+ ward and expect not to die. going with a load of heralds always seemed a lot more efficient to me.

I did have a lord of change, but I won't mention it... because it sucks

RMacDeezy
17-03-2011, 13:30
Problem is you can't get much magic out of it if you take Spirit Swallower. At 2500 your Keeper can be at best a level 2 if you give Spirit swallower.
at this point, you're definitely better off with the ubiquitous MoS HoT, the workhorse of the daemonic magic phase.


Therein lies the rub. A keeper of secrets is one of the best Level 4 wizards in the game, lore of slaanesh has some battle winning spells...but its a helluva point sink. A keeper of secrets with spirit swallower on the other hand will likely only be a level 1 or 2 (i do this sometimes and make him/her a level 2)but rarely die in c/c. Infact, once in close combat the damn thing has to be killed in 1 turn or will leikly make its wounds back thanks to its thunderstomp. A level 2 is nothing to be scoffed at either. However you are till talking about close to 600 points. Even a fully kitted out hirster is never more than 550.
i don't know about the best, the daemon lore of slaanesh is extremely situational. the only spell in the 'game-winning' category is phantasmagoria. succour of chaos is excellent as well (as long as you're not running mono-slaanesh), the rest of the lore is mediocre at best. also note, daemonic gifts are considered to be 'special rules' and according to the FAQ, thunderstomps do not benefit from the model's special rules, so no gaining wounds from thunderstomp and spirit swallower.

in my experience, the best setups for the keeper are:
the cheap one- siren song, torment blade- for 2k games
the intermediate- siren song, soul hunger, torment blade, maybe enrapturing gaze- 2.5k
the monster- spirit swallower and magic levels to taste. no magic levels leaves you with a purely CC monster that can squish anything (yes, mine has killed a bloodthirster on 2 occasions). 4 magic levels gives you +4 to dispel, a good chance at getting the good spells from the daemon lore of slaanesh and a virtually unkillable level 4 wizard. sure, she clocks in at 670 pts but if she makes it into combat, she'll be unstoppable, plus the 120 pts for 4 magic levels is cheaper (and arguably better protected) than a block of horrors (the only way to get +4 to dispel without a GD).

the thirster is more straightforward and durable due to his armor and can pick his combats a little better because he can fly. what it really comes down to is what else is in your army? if you have a big unit of crushers, take the keeper for her extra magic and trickery, if you have seekers with siren song and a horror block+herald, take the thirster for his killyness. or choose by model. i hate the greater daemon models but i have a forgeworld keeper so its a no-brainer for me ;)

Wade Wilson
17-03-2011, 13:46
also note, daemonic gifts are considered to be 'special rules' and according to the FAQ, thunderstomps do not benefit from the model's special rules, so no gaining wounds from thunderstomp and spirit swallower.

i hate the greater daemon models but i have a forgeworld keeper so its a no-brainer for me ;)


damnation you are quite right.*prints new faqs*

I have to admit i like the Citadel Keeper of Secrets...but the Forge World one kicks ass. Not fond of the bloodthirster model but hey.

RMacDeezy
17-03-2011, 14:35
damnation you are quite right.*prints new faqs*

:) a necessary evil my friend, otherwise we'd have balesword GUOs doing D6 wounds per hit per stomp. actually had a guy try that when 8th first came out, pretty sure he gets his own circle of hell for that lol.

Lex
17-03-2011, 15:43
Meh, Kipper and Thirster are scrubs! ;)

w3rm
18-03-2011, 22:04
Keeper is better IMO but I am not a huge fan of GD in general. A Herald can do the same work for less(albiet you need more of them)

Ghazbad_Facestompa
19-03-2011, 01:36
Do not run a kipper! If you take the Fried Egg upgrade (which is brokenly cheap), they can tear through almost anything!

RMacDeezy
19-03-2011, 04:25
i don't think you can really call anything that runs upward 600 pts "brokenly cheap." lol

shortlegs
19-03-2011, 15:27
also note, daemonic gifts are considered to be 'special rules' and according to the FAQ, thunderstomps do not benefit from the model's special rules, so no gaining wounds from thunderstomp

I keep hearing people say this, but am i the only one who thinks otherwise? I always read it as a case of a special rule benefitting from Thunderstomp, not the other way round. The kipper's thunderstomp attacks remain the same, it is just that with the spirit swallower, the kipper benefits from the wounds caused by thunderstomps.

Did the daemon FAQ specifically say otherwise?

RMacDeezy
19-03-2011, 18:18
Did the daemon FAQ specifically say otherwise?

no, the BRB FAQ says otherwise

Bloodedsoul
19-03-2011, 20:10
Edit: just searched FAQ, I was wrong

Ghazbad_Facestompa
21-03-2011, 00:08
i don't think you can really call anything that runs upward 600 pts "brokenly cheap." lol(I was going of the misspelling of "Keeper" as "Kipper". Y'know, the food?)

RMacDeezy
21-03-2011, 01:49
(I was going of the misspelling of "Keeper" as "Kipper". Y'know, the food?)

wrong side of the pond i guess

Ghazbad_Facestompa
21-03-2011, 04:52
wrong side of the pond i guessI'm American too. I just know stuff like this.

SlaaneshSlave
21-03-2011, 05:33
My Keeper has taken down Thirsters & GUO's. Also, has won me games with Phantasmagoria.

I only take it now when I want to loose friends.

Really. I took it with just the min 1 lvl of magic for a while & was still over powering.

Is kinda funny. With Spirit Swallower a Keeper is the ultimate tar pit. But how is a 600 point tar pit overpowered (or even good)? Answer: psychological warfare. Opponent focussed too much on the Big Girl allowing me to get the job done.

BlackVomit
21-03-2011, 06:55
So what would be an ideal gift setup for both, since Spirit Swallower & Thunderstomp don't work together?

Wade Wilson
21-03-2011, 11:36
Edit: just searched FAQ, I was wrong

I did the same thing bud. i had the daemon faq and foolishly hadnt thought to check the main faw for updates.

Spirit Swallower is still amazing though. Kip has what, 6 attacks and ASF on I10? Chances are you are going to cause at least 4-5 wounds to a unit before thunderstomps so that recovers any wounds taken in the previous rounds.

That said, siren song is an evil evil evil gift too, ither for heralds or the keepers...

I dont know about idea setups, but i tend to give my thirster either obsidian armour (virtualy no characters are gona hurt it in c/c now barr rune weapon dwarves and other daemons...)or armour of khorne if i am on a budget. Immortal fury is a must have for a bloodthirster i would wager. If you run a mono khorne list then giving him a spell breaker is a pretty good idea too.

BlackVomit
21-03-2011, 17:12
Re Obsidian Armour & Runic Weapons, I am under the impression that Dwarf Runic Weapons still count as magical weapons and are thus negated.

Wade Wilson
21-03-2011, 17:13
Re Obsidian Armour & Runic Weapons, I am under the impression that Dwarf Runic Weapons still count as magical weapons and are thus negated.

Honestly im not sure dude. I will defer to one who has more knowledge of dwarf weapons then me.

BlackVomit
21-03-2011, 17:54
Dwarf Rulebook pg 43: "It is important to remember that a runic item is no different in principle to any other magic item....All the rules that apply to the possession and use of magic items also apply to runic magic items"

Also, double checked the Obsidian Armour text to be sure:" ... In addition, magic weapons carried by enemy models lose all their magical abilities whilst the bearer remains in contact with the Daemon."

Wade Wilson
22-03-2011, 12:16
Win for the stupidly cheap obsidian armour then!

Urgat
22-03-2011, 13:28
So what would be an ideal gift setup for both, since Spirit Swallower & Thunderstomp don't work together?

It doesn't really matter if they dont. It just goes from ridiculously amazing to stupidely good.

Bloodfever
22-03-2011, 15:36
My best friend runs DOC and the greater daemons are all amazing, just don't use them against Empire. Not just for the canons but if your opponent just plays a arch lector on war altar, with the enchanted item that changes stats sword of fate and shield that takes 1 attack from a model in contact, he will crush any greater daemon (or any other lord in any army for that matter) in 1 to 2 turns. Not to mention hes only like 300 points.

fubukii
22-03-2011, 18:33
My best friend runs DOC and the greater daemons are all amazing, just don't use them against Empire. Not just for the canons but if your opponent just plays a arch lector on war altar, with the enchanted item that changes stats sword of fate and shield that takes 1 attack from a model in contact, he will crush any greater daemon (or any other lord in any army for that matter) in 1 to 2 turns. Not to mention hes only like 300 points.

that has always been a problem for daemons in many editions the key is to ensure you dont engage him with your characters, and just kill him with blood letters with killing blow :P if he doesnt have the good armor (1+ thing) you can also just shoot him off his lovely chariot. Greater daemons are very effective vs any army just has to be used differently vs different armies to gain thier max potential

Bloodfever
22-03-2011, 21:20
Agreed, best way to kill him is with the blood letters. He will only have 4+ ward vs their killing blow and it will not give him a chance to heal. The problem with the magic is that, correct me if i am wrong, but i believe he has a 2+ ward against it.

fubukii
22-03-2011, 22:43
can always use hexes or augments :)


if he didnt have the 1+ armor id just blast him with flamers.