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DaemonReign
18-03-2011, 03:11
Over the last few months I have worked together with interested parties on another internet community trying to come to terms with what we "daemon players" would like to see in a New DoC book for 8th Ed.

We are no where near a complete revision of the current book, but we have gotten quite far with narrowing down alot of details and general aspects/changes.

We have tried to be balanced. Tried to resist the "they're Daemons!" mentality. Still, this has so far been conducted exclusively by "Daemon-players" and thus - if you feel that you have the time and interest - I post the current status of our compiled findings here on Warseer so that all you "Daemon-haters" will have a chance at a say as well. ;)

Any constructive input is much appreciated. When I first joined here on Warseer I immidiately started a Thread on this very same subject, but that was brainstorming from scratch whereas what you see *below* is the result of many months of discussion/argument between dozens of unrelated players.

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CORE:
Bloodletters 13pts without killing blow
Suggested Options:
Hellblades +1pts/per model: Killing blow
Aura of Khorne +2pts/per model: heavy armor and MR2
Armour of Khorne +6pts/model: 3+ AS
Fury of Khorne +2pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule

Daemonettes 10 pts/model (11 pts/model?)
Soporific Musk +1pts/ per model: same effect as with fiends
Aura of Slaanesh +2pts/ per model: Opponent gets -1 to Ld when in base contact with daemonettes
Furious +1pts/ per model: Fight in extra ranks
Other Alternatives:
- Remove Armour Piercing, add S4.

Plaguebearers 12pts
Cloud of flies +2pts per model: Opponent gets -1 to hit in melee.
Blessing of Plaguefather +2pts per model: Immune to killing blow (not heroic killing blow) and get ward saves against instant killing stat tests.
Stream of corruption +2pts per model: Instead of normal attacks each Plaguebearer could make one automatic S3 hit on opponents.

Horrors 8 pts/model
Alternative: re-write to accomodate 8th Ed Magic Phase.
- Cast "AutoSpells" like shooting (4 Levels for Size as usual)?
- Generate Power Dice?
- Add Augments to units within 6"?
- Reintroduce Blue and Pink Horrors?
Blue Horror 6 pts/model
Could Channel once for each Level of Size, make Channeling easier, or have a constant bonus to the Power Pool instead of Spells from the Tzeentch Lore - etcetera.?

Furies
- Leadership increased to 5.

SPECIAL:

Flesh hounds
Fury of Khorne +3pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule
Striders +2pts/per model: Strider rule
Hunters +4pts/per model: Rerolls to hit and wound against one enemy unit chosen in the beginning of the battle.

Screamers
T4 (or +1 Wound!) or point-drop by 10 points.
Furious Charge
Protection of Tzeentch 3pts per model: MR2
Eaters of magic 5pts per model: Every wizard within 6" of the screamers needs 1 more to cast spells.

Nurglings *no changes*

Seekers 20pts
24pts with 3 attacks.
Soporific Musk +2pts/ per model: same effect as with fiends
Aura of Slaanesh +3pts/ per model: Opponent gets -1 to Ld when in base contact with daemonettes
Furious +2pts/ per model: Furious charge special rule.

RARE

Fiends
Scorpion Tail: 5 points/model = +1 S3 Poison Attack
or
Full-o'Acid: 10 points/model (Single Use: Each Fiend has One S7 Armour Peircing Autowounding Attack, D3 wounds).

BloodCrushers
Armor of Khorne +10pts/per model: 2+ armor and MR2 (5 pts/model?)
Fury of Khorne +5pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule
Bloodcrazy +5pts/per model: Frenzy special rule

Flamers
- No Changes /or Range 12" for Shooting with Quick To Fire Rule?

Beasts of nurgle
Add Cloud of Flies: gives opponent a -1 to hit penalty.
Playful +20 per model: Unit gains Stupid and stubborn special rules
Rotten to the core +10pts per model: Unit gains +3 regeneration
Trained monster +10 per model: You can reroll your random attacks for each model.

HEROES

HoK - no change
- Add Scythes to Bloodchariot
HoT - no change
- Burning Chariot: 4+ ward? Flaming Attacks? "Featherweight Craft" Special Rule = FlyMove 20" (still 10 for Charge!).
HoS - +1 Attack/T or S - depending on how Daemonettes are fixed.(?)
HoN - no change

LORDS

Daemon Prince
- Make into "super-herald" ('Exalted Daemon') at ~225 points base-cost? Essentially a Lord-choice bridging the gap between Heralds and Lords, able to join units and have mounts etcetera (Monstous Infantry Type?)
and/or
- Modify Current DP;
- Additional Wound? Free Selection of "Lord Gifts"? Increase Gift Allowance? Statchanges or Special Rules from Marks (Locus?)? Wider range of magic Level? Re-write statline?
*Anything goes about the DP, lots of creativity needed here.
Bloodthirster
- 6 wounds.
- Increase Gift Allowance (150-200)?
- Locus of Khorne
Lord of Change
- 6 wounds.
- Decrease cost by 25/50
- Increase Gift Allowance?
- Locus of Tzeentch.
GreatUncleanOne
- Decrease Cost by 25/50 points.
- Increase Gift allowance?
- Locus of Nurgle
- Movement 4 (but increase Fighting-Stats).
Keeper of Secrets
- 6 wounds.
- Increase Gift allowance?

THE MAGIC PHASE:
Horrors requires revision or drastic(boring) pointdrop.
- Could; Generate Own Power Dice, Channel general Dice much easier, auto-cast spells with Power Level-To-Dispel (abuse-warning!), augment nearby Troops/Friendly Wizards?
*The 3 Lores of Daemonic Magic will certainly be adjusted to 8th Ed with a new DoC-book, thus it is superfluous for us to put effort into this can of worms.
- Herald of Slaanesh/Nurgle allowed to purchase LvL 2. Herald of Tzeentch allowed LvL 3. Daemon Prince allowed LvL 3.

DAEMONIC GIFTS:
- Increase number of Gifts.
- ~20 Gifts (10 to 100 points cost) unlocked by each respective Mark.
- ~30 Gifts in the Unmarked Section.
* Heralds/Lords may choose freely in the Unmarked Section, and in the section unlocked by their Mark. Heralds still only get 50 pts/Gifts,
Further Amendments/Suggestions:
- Master of Sorcery 50 points?
- Siren Song - 35 points? (25 for a mono-slaanesh list?)
- Dark Insanity 50 points?
- AwesomeStrength - Point-reduction or "work with Monster Stomp"-rule.
- Spirit Swallower - "Work with Monster Stomp"-rule?
- Additions
(Unmarked) Chaos Disruption 50 points = -1 to shoot at daemon. Warmachines may-not-fire on 4+.
(Unmarked) Radiance of Dark Glory 20points = Daemon and unit he is with lose 1 less wound to instability.
(Slaanesh) Luring Fumes 25 Enemy models in contact halve their WS and I.
PLAGUESWORD (Nurgle only) - 50pts
Roll a D6 for any model wounded by this weapon after all saves have been taken. On a 4+ it loses all remaining wounds.
MAGIC-HATER (Khorne only) - 20pts
Any spells (friend or foe) cast by wizards within 6" of this model or targeted at units within 6" of this model will suffer a miscast on any casting roll that includes a double 1.

DAEMONIC ICONS:
* The idea is to go from 2 to 4 Icons per Mark, in the section beneath there are sometimes more than 4 alternatives for the sake of evaluation.

Khorne:
1). May always march - 15pts
2). Extra D6" to first charge - 25pts
3). Add D3 Dispel Dice to Enemy Magic Phase. - 25 points.
3). Magic Resistance 3 - 25pts?
4). +1 WS - 35pts
5). Unit is Immune to All Magic - 50 pts.?
6). "Unit Locus gives PermaHatred" - 75 points


Slaanesh:
1). Stubborn for first break test - 25pts
2). Only hold as reaction - 25pts
3). The unit gains the benefits of the Soporific Musk gift - 25pts
4). The unit gains the Swiftstride rule - 35pts
5). Enemy in B2B roll 3d6 for Fear-check discarding lowest (cumulative with Phantasmagoria). - 35 pts

Nurgle:
1). Poisoned wounds count double resolution - 25pts
2). Re-roll failed to wounds - 25pts
3). Shooting gets -1 to hit - 35pts
4). All enemy units in contact with the unit gain ASL - 50pts
5). Unit regains one Wound for Every 3 PoisonWounds caused - 35 points.

Tzeentch:
1). +1 ToCast, 15 points.
2). Once per Friendly magic phase, 2d6 S3 Flaming Hits in CC.
3). "Vortex Standard" - 50 points, 1 Extra Power/Dispel Dice.
4). "Unit Channels on 4+" - 35 points.
5). "Unit Ignores Miscasts" - 15 points.

BSB Icons:
1). Great Standard of Sundering - 50pts
2). Great Icon of Despair - 75pts
3). Standard of Chaos Glory - 100pts
4). Banner of Hellfire ~100pts: original Bound Spell function obsolete.
Suggestions:
- +2d6 To Combat Resolution 100pts (Overpowered?)
- 2D6 S6 Flaming CC-hits Every Friendly Magic Phase? (Overpowered?)

* Core Choices Icon-allowance 50 points. Special/Rare on 75? Troops have access to 'BSB-Icons' if they are within their price-range.

ADDITIONAL UNITS:
- Changebringers? (Flamers on Discs doesn't seem to add much though..)
- PleasureSeekers? (Danger of just duplicating Fiends.. Would be an interesting Mount-option for HoS and "Exalted Daemon of Slaanesh" though!)
- Plagueriders? - PlagueToads + Riders have been released from FW, it seems only natural to include them to the Nurgle Chapter in a new DoC Book.*
FW Experimental Rules on Plaguetoads; Suggestions are Locus of Nurgle and inceased cost by 10 points.?

*Optimally, each of the Four Marks should get at least 1 or 2 more "complimentary" units, while "duplication" issues might occur on a mark-to-mark basis, this would increase the value of the Mono-God playing style.

Brainstorming on New Units:
"Juggernauts of Khorne" ('Heavier alternative to FleshHounds')
"Eye Of Tzeentch" ('Dungeons&Dragons-inspired Beholder magic-hub type Rare/Special Choice Monster?)
- Core-troop variants? Either 'instead' of suggested upgrades or in addition to these. (i.e. "ascendants" of Bloodletters (T4, AoK - 24 Points/model), Daemonettes (T4, S5 20 points/model), Plaguebearers (+1 S & T 16 points/model), Horrors (Pink and Blue Horrors?)
- Chariots as Rare or Special Choice in Addition to Hero-Mounts?

theunwantedbeing
18-03-2011, 03:23
Should be in rules development really.

My sugguestions....
Horrors, can save a spell dice if they have a musician
More stuff that creates nurglings
Flamers, multiple shots special rule, more movement, less range

For months of work, that's little to no end result really.
Too many cooks spoil the broth it seems.
'Scuse the negativity, I'll post more positively later on in the week.

Might give you an entire list of "changes" as well.

DaemonReign
18-03-2011, 04:19
Should be in rules development really.

My sugguestions....
Horrors, can save a spell dice if they have a musician
More stuff that creates nurglings
Flamers, multiple shots special rule, more movement, less range

For months of work, that's little to no end result really.
Too many cooks spoil the broth it seems.
'Scuse the negativity, I'll post more positively later on in the week.

Might give you an entire list of "changes" as well.

Horrors saving Dice with Musician - Great idea! I don't think that *alone* would make them worth anywhere near 12 points (again) though. But none the less good input!

Stuff that Creates Nurglings - I had an idea for a Nurgle icon that Creates Nurglings for every 3 PoisonWound the unit causes. For now, "regaining a wound" for every 3 caused poison wounds are in the list. Still, fun that you would mention this because it's exacly what I thought.

Flamers - There's a divide amongst the people I've been discussing with. One side (myself included) think Flamers are pretty much fine as they are. The other side propagates the sort of changes you mention. I don't think decreasing their range AND making them hit less is called for, though. Not unless you actually want to make them cheaper.

"Too many cooks" - I beg to differ. The above list I've posted here is exactly where we should be after the initial wild brainstorming that we've been doing. This is already the most comprehensive and well-put revision I've seen so far in any community.. Because let's face it: One guy sitting down and just writing whatever comes along usually doesn't turn out very well.

Also, sorry for not posting this in the Rules Development section.. I simply forgot there was such a section! I am sure a Mod will be about shortly to correct my mistake.

Looking forward to whatever other input you have:

Some issues are of key-interest of course: Like the Daemon Prince and the idea of creating an "Exalted Daemon" choice somewhere between Prince and Herald. Also the costing and constitution of Greater Daemons have been hotly debated and what's posted above is an attempt at compromising between all differing views (few things stirr so many different opinions as Greater Daemons it seems.. some think they flat out suck, some think they flat out rule.. it's difficult.. but clearly they come at a premium and the question I guess is whether or not they "should" be too expensive or not given synergies with the rest of the Book).

Another thing about the "many cooks": We've tried to be realistic. That's why there's not 20 new units and a bunch of other things that GW are just not gonna do. Just look at the new Orc book.. There simply isn't supposed to be any great revelations here, just tweaks and fixes for 8th Edition together with mostly fluff-based additions as well as balance issues.