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View Full Version : This is probably news to none of you, but I just noticed something about AoBR...



HRM
19-03-2011, 01:58
... There's over 100 points worth more of Marines than Orks. :wtf:

If you're trying to market this as A STARTER SET, wouldn't it make sense to have equal-pointed forces in said starter set? I mean the Marines are gonna sell anyway; if you're going to lop-side the forces at least make the Orks look good by buffing THEM instead.

Is there some obvious reason for this that I'm missing?

Gatsby
19-03-2011, 02:06
Because they're marines, and GW has a fetish for marines, specifically those of the smurf variety.

chamelion 6
19-03-2011, 02:08
I suspect because taking 100pts of miniatures from the Marines would make the force to small and adding 100pts to the orks would add too much to the cost of the set.

ehlijen
19-03-2011, 02:09
The starter set is more concerned with having units to show off all game mechanics with than with creating equal forces.

Heavy and superheavy infantry, light infantry, multiwound models + ID, characters and the two most basic weapons for them (power swords + fists), vehicles, walkers...

Ideally there should have been a truck in there too to show off transports, but I guess that much plastic was just a bit too much for the space left.

You can make equal forces out of them for teachinc scenearios, but they quite openly tell you that you need more models and the codex. It's not like they're even legal armies (only one troops choice each).

HRM
19-03-2011, 02:21
The starter set is more concerned with having units to show off all game mechanics with than with creating equal forces.

Heavy and superheavy infantry, light infantry, multiwound models + ID, characters and the two most basic weapons for them (power swords + fists), vehicles, walkers...

Ideally there should have been a truck in there too to show off transports, but I guess that much plastic was just a bit too much for the space left.

You can make equal forces out of them for teachinc scenearios, but they quite openly tell you that you need more models and the codex. It's not like they're even legal armies (only one troops choice each).

Not only that, the Marine Captain has the wrong points - 100 points gets you a pistol/chainsword, not a power sword.

Hmmm, all good points, though. You guys have certainly been doing this longer than I have!

Strikerkc
19-03-2011, 02:24
the starter armies are almost always off balance. The 3rd eddition one gave the marines a heavy weapon and a land speeder for crying out loud. biggest things the dark eldar in that box had was a splinter cannon.

Mini77
19-03-2011, 02:56
AoBR predates the current Space Marine codex (albeit only briefly). In the last codex 5-man Tactical Squads with heavy/special weapons were legal choices and Space Marine Captains were 60 points plus upgrades.

Skyros
19-03-2011, 03:27
It's hard to balance small elite armies with horde armies in a starter set. Either one guy winds up with a points advantage or the other guy winds up getting more $$ in troops by an enormous margin.

DeviantApostle
19-03-2011, 03:44
It's ok, the Marines don't form a legal army anyway thanks to FoC.:shifty:

Torpedo Vegas
19-03-2011, 03:49
GW Starter sets are designed to show off the game and its rules, not provide a balanced "game in a box".

Bestaltan
19-03-2011, 04:40
Gotta handicap the awesomeness of the Orks somehow......

I mean come on.....We got plastic deffkoptas!!! I'd give the Space Marines an extra 500 for that!!

Hellebore
19-03-2011, 04:48
GW Starter sets are designed to show off the game and its rules, not provide a balanced "game in a box".

:confused:

The game and rules are at their core supposed to produce a balanced bgame. Thus making a starter set for people to START with using said rules SHOULD provide a balanced experience. Because no game you play unless specifically organised before hand will be handicapped to one side. A starter set should be teaching the player how the game is played and the game is not played unevenly.

This is the first time I've heard someone try to argue that a starter set for someone new to a game shouldn't be balanced. Are the kids playing it going to get pissed that they can't win with orks and just get space marines instead? It certainly works for the GW stores where they give the kids the marines and play as the orks and lose so the kids think how awesome marines are. But that's a horrible business model. Imagine if a starter set of Magic the gathering gave one force half Land cards just so they could 'understand the rules'.


Hellebore

Torpedo Vegas
19-03-2011, 05:07
This is the first time I've heard someone try to argue that a starter set for someone new to a game shouldn't be balanced.
Hellebore

I didn't argue for it,don't put words in my mouth. I just said thats the way it is. Have you seen IoB? The starter sets, for good or ill, try to show off the different troop types, characters, vehicles, etc, over starting with a balanced set of miniatures. Battle for Maccrage and Battle for Skull Pass where the same way.

I have noticed that if you double up on a starter set and drop a few things it does allow you to make a balanced game, though I am not sure if they where made with that in mind.

Axeman1n
19-03-2011, 06:01
If you give everyone heavy armor, the Orks are 575.
If you take the Marines with no upgrades, they are 575 too.

chromedog
19-03-2011, 06:06
None of the last three starters have had equal points.
2nd ed box (SM+orks)
3rd ed (SM+DE)
5th ed (SM+orks again).

Nothing new there.

Balance? What is this balance thing you speak of? GW know nought of balance (unless it means having a chip on both shoulders).

Hellebore
19-03-2011, 06:38
GW Starter sets are designed to show off the game and its rules, not provide a balanced "game in a box".


I didn't argue for it,don't put words in my mouth. I just said thats the way it is. Have you seen IoB? The starter sets, for good or ill, try to show off the different troop types, characters, vehicles, etc, over starting with a balanced set of miniatures. Battle for Maccrage and Battle for Skull Pass where the same way.

I have noticed that if you double up on a starter set and drop a few things it does allow you to make a balanced game, though I am not sure if they where made with that in mind.

My apologies I misread what you'd typed. Indeed it seems to be the way GW has done it, which IMO has been one of the driving forces behind the popularity of space marines. It would be interesting to see a starter box unbalanced in favour of the marines' enemy and see if suddenly Orks became really popular...

Hellebore

The Marshel
19-03-2011, 08:25
despite the points difference i believe its easier to win with orks then it is with the marines from AOBR.

obviously, if two new players are going at it then it wont really matter. but the 3 deff copters make reasonably easy work of the dread and then can pick off the tactical squad whil they are at it. the boyz and nobs simply have to mob the termis to win. Not saying its horribly unbalanced and that marines cant win, but if the ork player knows what he is doing its much harder for the marines, then a new ork player vs a new marine player

ModelCalamity
19-03-2011, 09:51
As above, more importantly most people would not plate marines with their host of special rules as they are only found in the codex.

In my experience as intro gamer for GW in my old days the win ratio was roughly equal.

HRM
19-03-2011, 12:24
OK, so I'm an idiot, haha. All good points. It DOES sorta make more sense now!

Sekhmet
19-03-2011, 17:32
None of the last three starters have had equal points.
2nd ed box (SM+orks)
3rd ed (SM+DE)
5th ed (SM+orks again).

Nothing new there.

Balance? What is this balance thing you speak of? GW know nought of balance (unless it means having a chip on both shoulders).

But the 2nd ed box gave orks a dreadnought!!!!!

Mini77
19-03-2011, 18:50
But the 2nd ed box gave orks a dreadnought!!!!!

But it was super-susceptible to flamer damage. ;)

Sekhmet
19-03-2011, 18:52
But it was super-susceptible to flamer damage. ;)

But in 5th, if you turned it sideways, you could probably get a cover save from a grot (50% coverage, 2-dimensional surface ftw).

Mini77
19-03-2011, 18:54
But in 5th, if you turned it sideways, you could probably get a cover save from a grot (50% coverage, 2-dimensional surface ftw).

That Dread was awesome.....

Sekhmet
19-03-2011, 18:55
That Dread was awesome.....
I think it's still a legal "model." :shifty:

http://www.bigshoota.com/images/battle_gallery/2004-4-april/rhino_vs_dread.jpg

Mini77
19-03-2011, 18:57
I think it's still a legal model. :shifty:

http://www.bigshoota.com/images/battle_gallery/2004-4-april/rhino_vs_dread.jpg

Yeah. Well, technically, it is a Citadel product so...

Sekhmet
19-03-2011, 19:06
If anyone reads this and has a few extra cardboard dreads, I'll buy them off of you.

If I accumulate enough, I'd start an Ork deffdread army. 2 big meks, 5 dreadnoughts, $50 max. Ahahahaha.

And it's GW tourney legal.

Blademeister
19-03-2011, 23:15
It's balanced gameplay wise. Noobs don't ussually know how to deal with swarm armies, so even though the points are off, the Orks greatly outnumber the marines and can easily win through massed swarm.

Eldartank
21-03-2011, 00:53
Those cardboard Ork Dreads are actually tournament legal? It sure would be fun to annoy some tournament organizer by having a couple of those cardboard Dreads in your Ork army.... ;)

P.S. There was actually a starter box set before Assault on Black Reach and after the 3rd Edition Box Set. It was Battle for Macragge, and it had some Tyranid Genestealers and Gaunts, an Imperial Pilot of some kind with a wrecked Lightning Fighter, and some very poorly done Space Space Marines.

In my opinion, Assault On Black Reach is the best starter box set GW has ever realeased so far - both in quality and in price.

Sgt John Keel
21-03-2011, 01:19
Those cardboard Ork Dreads are actually tournament legal? It sure would be fun to annoy some tournament organizer by having a couple of those cardboard Dreads in your Ork army.... ;

Surely the tournament organiser is free to ban whichever "models" he wants.

As for the starter set, just another reason to have Marines vs. Marines, no?

homunkulus
21-03-2011, 04:50
Coming from someone who learned to play 40k in 3rd ed with marines on marines, I can't say it's a particularly good way to teach the rules. It over simplifies everything to the point where we all assumed that 4+ was just what you needed to do a wound, we didn't really understand toughness, ATSKNF broke our understanding of Morale. The list goes on, but having armies that were nearly identical and couldn't be broken in combat like most units can be really makes learning to play with them a whole lot less useful.

This said, if they did go the Chaos route for the 6th ed box and had plague bearers, plague marines and maybe a sorcerer in the box, you'd introduce feel no pain, retain the varied toughnesses and get some psychic powers in there to boot. Having a librarian instead of a captain could make it a more interesting battle, it may get too complex for some though. Would be nice to have a few more game elements employed in the starter box though, perhaps they could have an escalated game where you gradually add more units in to make it more complex?

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-03-2011, 13:59
perhaps they could have an escalated game where you gradually add more units in to make it more complex?

Have that ever worked for any game? I remember when we started playing Warhammer (and 40k) the rulebook had a section with the core rules and then a section with advanced rules so you could read the core rules, play some games and then come back and learn the rest of it. I don't think we played a single game with just the core rules, despite us being a group of 12 year olds playing a game in a foreign language.
Same with Blood Bowl or pretty much any other game I've ever played. I don't know anyone who haven't just started playing. If there then is things we don't like how work we will take them out retrospectively, but not from the start.

Achaylus72
21-03-2011, 14:12
I spoke to a GW rep in my area and i asked about the Dreadnought and asked about it playrole in the starter set. I was reliably informed it is not intended to be played in the Starter Set, it is more or less a trinket, so if you take out the Dready you have more balanced starter set game.

jt.glass
21-03-2011, 14:57
Is there some obvious reason for this that I'm missing?Yes. If you play with just what is in the box, the marines will be playing with ATSKNF and Combat Tactics, so they are obviously worth fewer points than if they did have those things.




In my opinion, Assault On Black Reach is the best starter box set GW has ever realeased so far - both in quality and in price.Seriously? The orks aren't too bad, but the ****** monopose marines in AoBR are basically useless unless you want to do a parade ground vignette.

Whereas the 3e box had propper marine sprues, although they were paired with pre-update DEldar. Seem like you only get good value for one side or the other!

jt.

Eldartank
21-03-2011, 20:13
Yes. If you play with just what is in the box, the marines will be playing with ATSKNF and Combat Tactics, so they are obviously worth fewer points than if they did have those things.



Seriously? The orks aren't too bad, but the ****** monopose marines in AoBR are basically useless unless you want to do a parade ground vignette.

Whereas the 3e box had propper marine sprues, although they were paired with pre-update DEldar. Seem like you only get good value for one side or the other!

jt.

I suppose they could have put normal Space Marine sprues in the AoBR box set. But those mono-pose ones are far better than the ones in the "Battle of Macragge" box set. And if you mix those mono-pose marines in with your normal multi-pose ones when you paint up your squads, there probably won't be much of a noticeable difference.