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madival
20-03-2011, 09:30
I want to start a foot tau army and I was wondering how to run my tau warriors squads. So which is better and why, Massive fire warriors or devil fish fire warriors. I have played necrons/orks for a while, but nothing with a transport worth more then 40 points.
Ultimately it comes down to this: how should I run my fire warriors

Ivellis
20-03-2011, 09:40
Well, in your post you said you wanted a foot Tau army, so doesn't that say no transports?

My personal fire warrior squads on foot are like so:
12 Fire Warriors, Shas'ui with Bonding Knife and Markerlight

Sometimes a target lock as well.

In transport it seems people like to run a minimum squad for objective camping, personally I take the above squad, remove the ML and stick them in a devilfish with decoy launchers.

nightgant98c
20-03-2011, 13:12
I always take the target lock, as long as points allow. The real challenge is deciding on rifles vs. carbines. I usually run all rifles, for the range, and rapid fire. But if you want to move more, then carbines are a nice option. And I have been known to take an ethereal, just to get the honor guard, because bs4 fire warriors are very nice.

Cain1001
20-03-2011, 13:21
On foot = x12 w/ Leader + Bonding Knife and most often Rifles (stay in cover and hold ground etc)

Transport = x6 in Devilfish with D-Pods - zip around 12" a turn or keep in reserve and bring on board late game to take or contest objectives etc. (I have kept two in reserve and leave 1 objective open on far side and if my opponent diverts assets to it I tank shock late in game with one or both)

Worsle
20-03-2011, 13:30
In as small a number and in as few squads as possible. Firewarriors are not good, you take a single squad of 6 because you have too and that is it. Best to stick them in the pathfinders transport as you have to take one for them and it saves you spending to many points on your firewarriors.

VonManstein
20-03-2011, 13:38
In as small a number and in as few squads as possible. Firewarriors are not good, you take a single squad of 6 because you have too and that is it. Best to stick them in the pathfinders transport as you have to take one for them and it saves you spending to many points on your firewarriors.
This.

Anything else and you are automaticly accepting that you're busy building a not-so good list. Well 1x12 or 2x6 won't utterly cripple your list of course, but taking more than that really wil...

They simply aren't that good and investing points into more Suits and/or Piranhas is better.

ehlijen
20-03-2011, 13:47
Firewarriors are not bad. They are more reliant on specialist support than other armies' troops choices, but they are not bad.

scar face
20-03-2011, 14:05
What do you take instead of fire warriros?

scar

Worsle
20-03-2011, 14:17
You take kroot what else cold you take? Though unlike firewarriors kroot are an invaluable choice. Should never leave home without them.

scar face
20-03-2011, 14:22
I don't play tau myself, but kroot seem pretty weak,. Why are they good?

scar

Ville
20-03-2011, 14:37
I don't play tau myself, but kroot seem pretty weak,. Why are they good?

scar

In my games against Tau, infiltrating and outflanking Kroot units have been a pain in the neck. Sure, they die easily if your can catch them outside cover, but otherwise they are cheap annoying troops with surprisingly good close combat and ranged ability.

Charistoph
20-03-2011, 15:15
I always take the target lock, as long as points allow. The real challenge is deciding on rifles vs. carbines. I usually run all rifles, for the range, and rapid fire. But if you want to move more, then carbines are a nice option. And I have been known to take an ethereal, just to get the honor guard, because bs4 fire warriors are very nice.

I'd have to disagree here. Carbines are currently useless when compared to the Rifle. The only reason to be fielding them in your army at all is because you have Pathfinders and Gun Drones, and that's only because they can't take Pulse Rifles.

Fire Warriors are only useless in close combat, when able to shoot, they are actually pretty good. Carnivore Squads are superior to Fire Warriors in Assault offensively, but not as much defensively. Since this game revolves a lot around the Assault phase, Fire Warriors are generally considered weak. Though, I can tell you that a lot of Marines would like to trade their Bolters for Pulse Rifles, if they weren't in danger of going on trial for heresy for suggesting it.

Zweischneid
20-03-2011, 15:22
I'd have to disagree here. Carbines are currently useless when compared to the Rifle. The only reason to be fielding them in your army at all is because you have Pathfinders and Gun Drones, and that's only because they can't take Pulse Rifles.

Fire Warriors are only useless in close combat, when able to shoot, they are actually pretty good. Carnivore Squads are superior to Fire Warriors in Assault offensively, but not as much defensively. Since this game revolves a lot around the Assault phase, Fire Warriors are generally considered weak. Though, I can tell you that a lot of Marines would like to trade their Bolters for Pulse Rifles, if they weren't in danger of going on trial for heresy for suggesting it.

If you disembark with Rifles, you need to be within 12". If you disembark with Carbines, you can likely stay out of next-turn counter-assault range of non-fleet, non-jump infantry units you shoot at.

And I think most Firewarriors would happily trade away both Pulse Rifles and/or Carbines against Bolters, or even Lasguns, as long as they get to put in a Special Weapon or two in each unit.

keroro623
21-03-2011, 17:10
Ah, this is one thing I've always found interesting about tau. despite the typical idea our fluff recommends a more standardized army, the players have more varied opinions on how to take units than most marine list :D
I usually field 2 fire warrior squads between 8-12(depending on the points) with a third of them taking carbines. I don't buy devilfish for them and instead have them take the pathfinder's fish. In 1500+ games I usually field a kroot squad.

Okuto
21-03-2011, 18:25
honestly I'd tell you to save your money and get kroot instead, though do take the min 6 man firewarrior squad. Then pray your kroot take the charges bound to come to you.

Though if you must use a unmounted fire warrior squad take 12 with bonding knife. If I take foot squads(this is usually only for COD) then I take carbines as they can be mobile.

We aren't guardsmen, we gotta move around.

madival
21-03-2011, 21:40
arent firewarriors bad enough that the rest of the army is better at everything pretty much?

Charistoph
21-03-2011, 23:47
arent firewarriors bad enough that the rest of the army is better at everything pretty much?

Not quite, but close. Their armor is the best you can get outside a battlesuit in the Tau armory. That means they can survive more non-power and standard small arms hits than Kroot. But they really need it in close combat as they are easily hit, and usually hit first.

As for Carbines, take Drones, at least when you get assaulted, they have a chance at hitting first, even if they do it poorly. The 6" deficit of the Rifle is more than made up by the volume of fire they present.

But if they are just a Scoring upgrade for a Devilfish for you, it really doesn't matter what they're carrying until they lose the Fish.

TheLaughingGod
22-03-2011, 00:21
As an Eldar player, I have no concerns about Kroot. My Scorpions always manage to catch them and chew up HUGE units of them with minor casualties. Even against Marines kroot fold quickly. I don't recommend relying on them having no armor save in this metagame of anti-cover makes them really, really weak. Fire Warriors are fantastic. I recommend squads of 8-10. You don't need a team leader really or any additional wargear unless you have some kind of plan.

Load them up in a devilfish and send them out to do some damage.

Alternately, two large units behind a small wall or hedge or in a crater/ruins can lay down the hurt so long as you have a bonding knife and some crisis support. (Maybe use them to shield broadsides)

Literally, to your subject line away as fast as possible

Nurgling Chieftain
22-03-2011, 00:40
d6" away from the closest enemy. :D

Charistoph
22-03-2011, 02:09
Of course, it's easy to have enough units of nasty models running around that your opponent will generally be looking to take them down first instead of concentrating effort on Fire Warriors that they "can roll up any time".

All part of Kau'yon... Or is it Mont'ka...?

ehlijen
22-03-2011, 02:57
Firewarriors with carbines are good if you want a cheap objective unit as they can move and shoot better than rilfe warriors, who are limited to 'all in' rapid fire attacks on the move.

Firewarriors are just as good at taking charges as Kroot against most things thanks to their armour save. Only against I3 and power weapon spam are the Kroot better. The Kroot win with their options though. Being able to tailor for roles (CC hounds or shooty oxen) really helps in an army where organic specialist weapons are hard to get.

Retribution
22-03-2011, 03:26
Besides a point adjustment, how would you guys fix Firewarriors for a new codex?

dingareth
22-03-2011, 03:56
Special weapon Drones would be a good start.

Xabraxis
22-03-2011, 04:25
Kroot are one of the better units in the book, but only if you take max size and kroothounds. Feel free to include a Krootox if you do not plan on outflanking them.

Carbines have their uses, despite their lack of range. Pinning mostly. What I want to try is have a few advance minimal squads of carbiners, paint their targets with markerlights and make that pinning check hella hard to pass.

That, or use Drones instead. With one you get a somewhat faster unit, with the other you get something that can hold an objective.

I guess the real issue is, what do you plan to do for anti-tank?

megatrons2nd
22-03-2011, 05:45
Besides a point adjustment, how would you guys fix Firewarriors for a new codex?

Allow the Tau to use a stand and shoot reaction if it did not fire in it's last shooting phase, and it passes a Leadership test.

Charistoph
22-03-2011, 06:15
Besides a point adjustment, how would you guys fix Firewarriors for a new codex?

Without starting the HUGE discussion from the Tau Wishlist, Fire Warriors are actually fine for the most part, it's their weapons that need to be upgraded along with new drone options that need to be explored. Carbines can be upgraded to Assault 2 without much argument and not overpowering them, even with Pinning! Adding Sniper Drones and Heavy Weapon Drones as options is also a good direction to look. Another possibility would be adding in the SDT's Drone Controller into the team along with the Drone options I mentioned earlier. The main discussions were where to take the Rifle (keep as is, or make Heavy 2), keep Pinning on Assault 2 Carbines, what all options to have for the Drones and how to implement them into the squads.

But carapace armor is good, defensive grenades are useful in a few situations, and EMP grenades have been known to cause issues to enemy vehicles. Anything else should be 'ui wargear, Drones, or provided by someone else.

ehlijen
22-03-2011, 07:22
They could do with 3 weapon options, Rapid fire rilfes, A2 carbines (probably just leave the pinning out as no one but other Tau really care anyway) or a H2 cannon.

Possibly a combat tactic-esque rule that allows them to break from combat (with photons giving an initiative bonus when doing that?).

But they should remain uniformly armed and relying on suit mounted special weapons to help. It's the one big thing that makes the actually perform differently than Imperial armies.

Charistoph
22-03-2011, 07:52
I would accept Drone-mounted Special weapons, but not for themselves. Nor should they have to be uniformly armed, but still have the capacity.

If the H2 weapon were to be made, what would it be called? A Pulse SAW?

ehlijen
22-03-2011, 14:03
I didn't mean uniformly as in all the same choice of the available ones, but rather all just some variant of a basic pulse standard weapon with no special/heavies.

Specialist teams that are taken seperately but as part of the same FO chart could work (sort of a mini platoon), whether those be drones, trained firewarriors of some new kind of light suit.

I was going for pulse cannon for the heavy one. Or possible pulse blaster? SAW is a bit too contemporary and the acronym only works in english. For all we know it'd abbreviate to PQ'T in Tau...

Charistoph
22-03-2011, 22:41
I have seen sugggestions of pulling SDTs from Heavy Support and putting them in Fire Warrior teams, but to purchase them with the team, but have them still operate seperately, ala IG Heavy Weapon squads, could work. Pathfinders, too.

Carlosophy
22-03-2011, 23:47
Besides a point adjustment, how would you guys fix Firewarriors for a new codex?

This is really all they need, although I suspect the Pulse Rifle will become Assault 1/Heavy 2 as well so they can be effective at extreme range. It doesn't make sense they are strongest close up, yet have a disdain for assault. Tau are supposed to handle at arms length.

ehlijen
23-03-2011, 07:13
Why doesn't it make sense that a race of people who aren't any better at shooting than humans are able to shoot more accurately at closer ranges, just like humans do? The closer something is, the bigger it is subjectively and the easier it is to hit. Hence why rapid fire weapons are better close in. It's not that the gun shoots twice as many bullets half as far, but rather that the shooter gets better odds at hitting with a significant number of shots.

The Tau understand the benefit of point blank range firing as well as anyone, or they wouldn't use things like flamers and fusion blasters.

Carlosophy
23-03-2011, 08:47
Why doesn't it make sense that a race of people who aren't any better at shooting than humans are able to shoot more accurately at closer ranges, just like humans do? The closer something is, the bigger it is subjectively and the easier it is to hit. Hence why rapid fire weapons are better close in. It's not that the gun shoots twice as many bullets half as far, but rather that the shooter gets better odds at hitting with a significant number of shots.

The Tau understand the benefit of point blank range firing as well as anyone, or they wouldn't use things like flamers and fusion blasters.

For Tau a Fusion Blaster is more of an infiltration/flanking weapon based on battlesuits being dropped from the air or behind enemy lines. The Tau codex, Imperial armour and pretty much every other sourcebook on them states they prefer and do fight at extreme ranges, and then withdraw to a safer place once the enemy closes. 'If the enemy can come close enough to negate your striking power all stratagem is lost, and when all stratagem is lost, the battle is lost' remember?

Assault 1 Rifles and Assault 2 Carbines would be fine.

ehlijen
23-03-2011, 10:37
Tau are more than just snipers. They fully understand that closing aggressively has its advantages in fire accuracy and damage output for any unit. The Mont'ka is all about finding a weak spot and then hitting it as hard and fast as one can; if you have to get close to do that, then that is what you must do.
Sniping and withdrawing is what the Tau do when seeting up a Kau'yon ambush or waiting for a Mon'tka opening. But hey fully understand that doing that as a primary battle doctrine will lead to a battle of attrition, which they are not equipped to win. To actually beat the enemy, you have to devestate him. For that, more often than not, you have to get close enough to finish him.

The difference is that the Tau don't get quite as close as other races. They stop at rapid fire range, where others would charge on, but they still need to close to maximise their firepower, just like everyone else.

keroro623
23-03-2011, 18:13
I would like to remind you all who are commenting on tau tactics and how tau should fire/react to remember that their are two main schools of war for tau commanders and how they react to the whole advancing enemy is based on their philosophy. I prefer Mont'ka :evilgrin:
and back on topic I fell this should also regulate the way you use and field fire warriors. so I ask the OP do you prefer static or mobile armies? is the rest of your army designed for elite killing or infantry killing? do you prefer a more passive/defensive style or do you like to be the attacker?

Draigo
23-03-2011, 18:35
The best way to run firewarriors is not at all, but the codex has them as 1+, so you gotta take a unit of 6.
Stick it in a pathfinder devilfish, and never dismount.

Bloody Nunchucks
23-03-2011, 21:04
the guy who started this post said he wanted a entirely foot slogging fire warrior force.
of course, i recommend not doing this and just taking 6 and putting them in a devilfish.
if you are set on a foot army i would use squads of 6, so that when assault time comes(and it will) you can sacrifice a squad and move away with the rest of them and then shoot the s**t out of assault unit.

as for making FW's better, making the rifle assault 2 would be all id ask for. although a 8 point cost would be cool. as well as being able to buy drones that can have plasma or missiles or so on. although this might change how the army is played (no crisis cuits) so idk.

riotknight
23-03-2011, 21:38
I run 2x 12 with a Leader and bonded, mostly for FLuff Reasons, 1 has a Warfish, the other parks on an objective or takes the Pathfinders fish.

I think an easy fix rather than give the unit a special weapon via drone, allow a small unit of special weapon drones to be taken for each FW unit consisting of 8+ fire Warriors (to prevent spamming). These would be outside the FOC, and be unable to contest objectives or hold objectives, and the unit would be of 2 Weapon drones (armed with Burst Cannons standard) and a Stealth Drone.


Just an idea I had, i know it's a bit OT.

Edit: Maybe also include it must be deployed within 6" of its parent unit?

Zothos
23-03-2011, 22:05
I run a minimum of 2 squads of 10.

Usually in Devilfish. Key is to unload them at the right time at the right targets. They rarely fail me.

Draigo
23-03-2011, 22:21
Yes, killing an average of 2 marines, and being in range so they can charge you, is a very good investment of 100+the devilfish's points cost.

Zothos
23-03-2011, 22:32
As i said. Unload them at the right time. Why would i drop them in front of a unit of marines if i thought i was going to be charged? Are you neglecting the shooting from the devilfish or pair of devilfish?

If you send in ANY unit unsupported, it will die. Fire Warriors are not the end all be all of units. I am merely saying i have found many uses for them beyond putting them in assault range of anything....

Draigo
23-03-2011, 23:09
If 20 shots from your warriors drop 2 marines, the 2-4 shots from the fish isn't gonna do a whole lot more.

Rather than mass 200+ point units of bad firewarriors in fish, take more crisis suits and kroot.
Crisis kills people, without needing to commit themselves, and kroot die so the crisis and the rest of your army can live.

Advising people to get firewarriors is mean.

Grand Inquisitor General
23-03-2011, 23:41
Fire warriors are fine the way are, devilfish need to have fire points and be 10 points cheaper.
Kroot? Giving Tau cannibal warriors is like having a Eldar tank with treads. They dont fit.

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 00:51
Why are you dropping the firewarriors from the devilfish in charge range of a full marine unit without adequate support from the rest of the army?

The whole point of the devilfish is that you don't have to commit the firewarriors at all until the situation is favourable.

The_Comussar
24-03-2011, 00:58
Been playing Tau since they came out. Firewarrior are place holders troops units. They're pretty much only in the codex solely to be an equivalent of everyone elses troop, thats why you have the defensive qualities of Eldar with the ranged-offensive capabilites of Marines.
Take as few as you can and fill everything else with Kroot. Devilfish are too expensive to be wasted on trying to make Firewarriors good.

TheMav80
24-03-2011, 00:58
The point of the Devilfish is that it keeps your Objective holding Firewarriors away from everything until the last turn of the game when they move in to hold the objective.

The_Comussar
24-03-2011, 01:04
In that case they should just dragoon a pathfinder team's fish. That's what I do.

Wolf Lord Balrog
24-03-2011, 01:46
I think what the OP meant was 'How would you change Fire Warriors to make them useful for something other than sitting in their transport the whole game.' From a design perspective, there are only three things you can do to make a unit better:

1> Make them harder to kill: Seems hard to either justify or execute for Fire Warriors. Perhaps you could make Photon Grenades into something more than defensive grenades.

2> Make them more lethal: This seems much easier. Add special weapon drones, give the FWs BS4, and give them some kind of option to make their basic gun useful for something other than anti-infantry.

3> Give them special rules: Again, hard to justify for a basic Troops selection. Though I did come up with one for my fandex: Fire Warriors don't count disembarking from a transport as movement with regard to what weapons they can fire.

riotknight
24-03-2011, 01:57
I'm a fan of drone units taken per fw unit, but if you have to make them harder, a real simple way is to give them an option for Camo Cloaks, or a medic-drone for FNP!

Seriously though, Camo cloaks seems like a viable option, and I wouldn't be surprised if it became an option to some of the tau infantry in the future (Suits already have this in the way of Stealth fields)

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 02:41
Balrog, I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP meant. He specifically asked for help in firewarrior tactics as they are.

Wolf Lord Balrog
24-03-2011, 03:46
Balrog, I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP meant. He specifically asked for help in firewarrior tactics as they are.

Oops, for some reason I thought Retribution was the OP. Still, his question was more interesting, since Fire Warriors as they are are useless. :D

Retribution
24-03-2011, 03:56
Sorry about the mix-up, haha; i figured this would be a good thread to ask such a question in, considering the context. But yes, as balrog explained, i'd like to see them as more than "just" objective holders with a transport

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 04:43
If you don't want to see the uses of fire warriors, sure, they'll always be useless to you.

They make decent firebases with rifles or good harrassing units on the move with carbines. They can even hurt quite a lot light vehicles.

Charistoph
24-03-2011, 04:56
Whenever someone calculates the advantages of Fire Warriors, they always neglect the Pulse Weapons and concentrate solely on the WS, S, and I, which don't even scare a Grot (a rare even playing field for them there). The Fire Warrior is designed completely around the Pulse Rifle (I know the Carbines have their uses, but they are a secondary option for them), which is an impressive weapon that no other standard Troop weapon completely compares evenly to. Because they are designed around that weapon, they are set up to provide effective fire support. It's not their fault that 40K is an Assault-centric game (but it IS the designer's).

Xabraxis
24-03-2011, 05:30
Interesting note: Sternguard all come with a 30 inch range ammo round with ap 4.

Also: Pulse Grenades that work as both defencive grenades and Hit and Run? (Although with init 2 you might have to cruddace it to give it to them on a 4+)

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 06:14
And sternguard are neither troops nor nearly as cheap as firewarriors.

Wolf Lord Balrog
24-03-2011, 06:20
If you don't want to see the uses of fire warriors, sure, they'll always be useless to you.

They make decent firebases with rifles or good harrassing units on the move with carbines. They can even hurt quite a lot light vehicles.


Whenever someone calculates the advantages of Fire Warriors, they always neglect the Pulse Weapons

The Pulse weapons are indeed nice basic infantry weapons. The problem is that they are carried by BS3 T3 Sv4+ guys that cost 10 points each. To be worth 10 points they need BS4 at a bare minimum, and preferably something to make them more durable too.

As they stand, getting them out of their transport is just asking for them to die quickly.

Xabraxis
24-03-2011, 06:23
And sternguard are neither troops nor nearly as cheap as firewarriors.

The point is that their advantage is slowly becoming less of an advantage and becoming more common place and counter-able. deepstriking units, heavy flamers, fast attack choices, teleporting dreadknights, and everyones shooty units being shootier.

Firewarriors need something to give them that Firewarrior Pzaz.

CushionRide
24-03-2011, 06:28
i used to run my firewarriors as a gunline blocking my opponent from my broadsides. it was very harsh, then the flanks i covered with cheap kroot.

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 06:37
4+ save is a good save. I don't think they're many things in the game that sport a 4+ save and cost much less than firewarriors.
I think carapace warrior acolytes with bolters are 10? They trade a bit of firepower for minor combat stat increase. Or get them for slightly less with lasguns only.
IG vets with carapce are pretty much 10 a piece. Better BS but only lasguns base to use it on.

4+ save and a pulse gun requires a certain minimum cost for fire warriors. They already min maxed the stats so they wouldn't have to pay for useless combat stats.

What kills them when they get out your transports? Even in the open, it takes dedicated heavy fire to reliably hurt them (few basic weapons are AP4- after all).


edit: expensive elites are meant to be able to counter certain basic troops. Range 30" isn't a 'thing'. Plenty of weapons have that and more. Range 30 basic troops weapons is a 'thing' because no one else can match that (rangers come close but can't make up the volume).

Nurgling Chieftain
24-03-2011, 07:16
And sternguard are neither troops nor...While that's strictly speaking correct, I've yet to see a Sternguard on the table that wasn't a scoring unit. :p Apparently only Crimson Fists make special ammo...

owen matthew
24-03-2011, 08:28
Been playing Tau since they came out. Firewarrior are place holders troops units. They're pretty much only in the codex solely to be an equivalent of everyone elses troop, thats why you have the defensive qualities of Eldar with the ranged-offensive capabilites of Marines.
Take as few as you can and fill everything else with Kroot. Devilfish are too expensive to be wasted on trying to make Firewarriors good.

I've been playing since they came out, and I love the humble fire warriors. I don't put them in Devilfish, but I also never found much good in tau-internet fads either. I have no problem winning with them as well. All infantry, all the time for me.

I am no big fan of Kroot either. Sure they are great for feeding to the enemy, but FW do that just as well, and their gun is more versatile in the early turns.

That being said, I would LOVE a shiny new codex-creep book to keep me on top of the power curve for a good long while. I am tired of playing catch up with my favorite army.

IMHO, not to you Comussar necessarily, but firewarriors work fine if you know how to use them, or take the time to force yourself to learn how. F math-hammer, from time to time, and also try some new tactics...

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 08:38
While that's strictly speaking correct, I've yet to see a Sternguard on the table that wasn't a scoring unit. :p Apparently only Crimson Fists make special ammo...

Being scoring is not the same as being troops. It neither allows the unit to be taken in lieu of tacticals or scouts to fulfill the FO chart requirements, nor does it stop them from competing against the other elites choices for the 3 slots you're allowed.

Draigo
24-03-2011, 11:08
3 firewarriors is 5 points more than one sternguard, and based purely on statistics, he'll plink them off one by one, while they need a small miracle to shoot him down.

Firewarriors are overpriced, inflexible, and a static shooting element in an army that relies on movement to stay alive - let alone win.
To make them even worse, if you add a transport, the unit is likely to double in cost, but now can't use its rifles.

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 12:40
Say what? One sternguard against 3 firewarriors on a sniping duel?

Sure if there's no cover the SG kills 4/9 FWs per turn why they only kill 3/9 per turn. So the odds are slightly in his favour. Add cover and they go the other way. There's no miracles involved.

Yes, Firewarriors can pull static firebase duty. But they can also do mobile firepower (carbines) or assaults (fish + rapid fire). They're not overpriced, a 4+ save is expensive as is a S5 gun. If they are to be cheaper, one of them has to go. Yes, they are somewhat inflexible, that's the point. This isn't just another imperial army where you take a squad, add some special weapons and then ignore the basic guys. They are better equipped on average but have no specialsits. The suits are meant to provide that while the firewarriors provdide what the suits can't: a solid anchor to the line or a decent amount of boots on the ground on the offensive.

Draigo
24-03-2011, 12:58
Why are you taking range 18 guns on very fragile, expensive, bad units you need to score your homebase?

No, firewarriors don't provide 'boots.' They stand and die, and suck away points you could use for more things that kill the enemy.
'A solid anchor?' T3, 4+ save, leadership version bad, 10 points per dude, and BS3? No, thank you.

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 13:04
18" guns can move, shoot and still be out of charge range. Rifles can't. The rifles are for securing your base, carbines are for firing on the move towards theirs.

1 4+ save wound per 10 points is about as solid as the Tau list gets. And BS3 is pretty par for the course. The well trained guardsmen are only BS3 as well.

If BS3 and 4+ saves aren'g good enough, enjoy your variety of marines :) But don't complain if GW stops making anything else at all...

Draigo
24-03-2011, 13:11
When was the last time you saw dedicated combat units that only had an effective threat range of 12 inches?

Why are you moving towards the enemy's knives in the first place?

ehlijen
24-03-2011, 13:33
Last game and because the missions often require it.

Charistoph
24-03-2011, 15:33
When was the last time you saw dedicated combat units that only had an effective threat range of 12 inches?

Hmm, you mean like Berzerkers and Assault Terminators? Yes, there are others, but these are the most common ones.

Worsle
24-03-2011, 17:43
Whenever someone calculates the advantages of Fire Warriors, they always neglect the Pulse Weapons

On no they are not neglected it is just even when you take them into account they are not any good. As the tau's fluff rather foolishly deprives them of special weapons and their transports are not any better all you have with them is just an infantry killer. Problem is they are not even that good an infantry killer, for a start the 4+ cover save of the 5th kills most of the point to AP4. Though what is worse if you run the numbers kroot point for point will kill more marines when shooting than fire warriors will (as horrible a form of analysis as this is, it illustrates my point). So not only do kroot have additional advantages in their rules they are better at shooting than firewarriors are too.

Wolf Lord Balrog
24-03-2011, 18:26
So not only do kroot have additional advantages in their rules they are better at shooting than firewarriors are too.

This is a very important point. While true that it is a crude form of analysis, it is also the only easy way to quantify the difference in firepower. Mathhammer:

FWs 1 shot * BS3 * S5vT4 * Sv3+ / 10pts per model = .0111 MeQ kills per point
Kroot 1 shot * BS3 * S4vT4 * Sv3+ / 7pts per model = .0119 MEQ kills per point

So the Kroot are 7% better per point at shooting, immeasurably better at Assault, can Infiltrate, and they make use of cover better than Fire Warriors.

Xabraxis
24-03-2011, 18:55
Hmm, you mean like Berzerkers and Assault Terminators? Yes, there are others, but these are the most common ones.

That is a matter of location.

Here its certainly deepstriking units or Jump infantry.

Charistoph
24-03-2011, 19:12
That is a matter of location.

Here its certainly deepstriking units or Jump infantry.

Yes Jump Infantry tends to be dedicated Assault Troops, but not all dedicated Assault Troops are Jump Infantry. And that was my point.

riotknight
24-03-2011, 19:22
Yes Jump Infantry tends to be dedicated Assault Troops, but not all dedicated Assault Troops are Jump Infantry. And that was my point.

Or Land Raider loaded Termies (or storm raven in some cases), or Rhino Bezerkers, fleeting Harlequins/Wyches/Incubi/etc....

Xabraxis
24-03-2011, 20:02
Or Land Raider loaded Termies (or storm raven in some cases), or Rhino Bezerkers, fleeting Harlequins/Wyches/Incubi/etc....

Or coming in drop-pods and getting off some of their expert shooting for a round before assaulting your less expert shooters.

CushionRide
27-03-2011, 17:37
i just playtested that sternguard vs 3 firewarriors, even with him armed with plasma gun, sternguard lost. :P it purely came down to range, i started them at 31 inches apart, most of the time my first turn went to the sternguard, move run. no shoot, FW turn, 3 shots, 2 wounds, 2 armor saves, SG fires 1 shot, 1 wound. fw turn, 2 hits one wound, sm failed its save.

thats pretty much the same result i get each time :P yeay range