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Triceron
21-03-2011, 08:04
So it's been quite a few years since we've seen any real new armies that aren't offshoots from core armies. The number of current races are pretty high as it is, but it feels like there's still so much potential left untapped, especially since the realm of science fiction has evolved over the past 10 years.

Do you think it's about time for some new armies?

shadowhawk2008
21-03-2011, 08:27
Question is do you want a new army just so you can have another completely different army to play or do you want a new army so you can complicate the balancing of the game that much more?

DeviantApostle
21-03-2011, 08:28
Not yet. Not quite yet.

There's a few more codecies in dire need of attention. Once Necrons, Tau, Chaos and Sisters get updated, then I think they could start thinking about new armies. Craftworld Eldar and Orks need some tweaks but their model lines are solid with only a few needed additions to the Ork range. That to me would seem to be the prime time for developing something new, particularly if they develop 6th edition with the current competitive codecies in mind.

Of course this is GW... anything's possible, no matter how crazy it might seem.

Hendarion
21-03-2011, 08:53
I actually doubt we will see any new army in any foreseeable future time-frame.
GW right now is not even able to handle and update the Codices they currently run and have a lot of work to do by updating the still missing Sisters of Battle and Necrons by fluff and especially by the model-range.

Apart of that, I'd prefer keeping the status quo over adding yet another "imperial" army (and that is most likely I guess) or at least humanoid aliens. The galaxy is too big for both of these to be released imo.

dragonet111
21-03-2011, 08:58
I know there is plenty of races in the galaxy but I don't want a new army. probably better to take care of the armies already in the game.

Triceron
21-03-2011, 09:03
Question is do you want a new army just so you can have another completely different army to play or do you want a new army so you can complicate the balancing of the game that much more?

The last two unique armies (IMO) were the Tau and Necrons, which were released around the early 2000's. Since then, we've gotten Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters and Daemons of Chaos, three armies that are essentially offshoots of Space Marines and Chaos. I personally think these additions 'complicate the balance of the game' more than a unique alien (or scifi influenced) army would have.

While the fight between Humanity and Chaos is ever-present in the 40k universe, I think it's time to explore the possibilities of new Xenos before we get another Human/Demon-centric faction.

Hendarion
21-03-2011, 09:05
Still he is right. Every additional Codex will expand the imbalance even further. You can't withdraw the Codices you mentioned any more anyway.

AlexHolker
21-03-2011, 09:46
The last two unique armies (IMO) were the Tau and Necrons, which were released around the early 2000's. Since then, we've gotten Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters and Daemons of Chaos, three armies that are essentially offshoots of Space Marines and Chaos.
The Witch Hunters codex is the successor to the Sisters of Battle codex of 2nd edition, it is not a new faction.

marv335
21-03-2011, 09:54
The only "new" army I can see turning up is Adeptus Mechanicus
Even then, that's a remake of an army from the "black codex" from the 2nd ed box.

leonmallett
21-03-2011, 09:59
My understanding from some correspondance with Jervis Johnson a few years ago was that GW aim to maintain a certain number of army lines within each game, so slotting in a new one has to be balanced against support for existing lines/armies.

At that time he did not envisage any new armies being added, and my question was framed in reference to the human and marine-centric line-up. I may have asked the question shortly before or after the Daemons release.

Rick Blaine
21-03-2011, 10:04
A new army is also a big financial risk for GW, I don't think they're in a position to take a chance.

Unless it's just another Smurf chapter, of course.

eldargal
21-03-2011, 10:14
The onl way I could see it happening without it negatively impacting the release schedules is if they roll the remaining modern codex-less SM (BT & DA) into the next C:SM. Then you would have room in the release schedule for a new race. I don't for a moment think this will happen.

I wouldn't say GW isn't in a position to do it financially, they have plenty of cash, no debt and healthy profits.

Wade Wilson
21-03-2011, 12:23
A new Necron codex may very well feel like a 'new' army its been so long since they have had anything. as for Tau, isnt there a runour that Squats might be included in their codex with an option for a Squat HQ choice too? Makes sense that Tau use any and all races under their influence i guess?

Korraz
21-03-2011, 12:41
Hopefully never. There are way too many books in the cicle as is. Once all Marine books got combined into "Vanilla" and "Non Codex", we can start thinking about Mechanicus and Traitor Legions. And since this is never going to happen...

theJ
21-03-2011, 13:08
Depends on your definition of "new".

If you mean "new" as in "completely new" (I.E. what the Tau were back in the day) then no, I can't see it happening. It's just too damn risky.

If you mean "new" as in "army that is already present in the background but ain't got a codex at the moment", then yes, I can see it happening. There's nothing stopping a Mechanicus, Exodite, LatD or Demiurg codex from being released. In fact, I think a lot of people would be delighted!

Personally, I think the Dark Eldar revision can kinda be considered a "new" army... and I love it ^^

Achaylus72
21-03-2011, 13:51
The main problem for GW is that in reality the Space Marines and offshoots are taking the bulk of the revenue.

In my personal opinion is that they (GW) should have fixed up Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters Codexes and combined them forming one very tight Army and one nice Codex.

As far as Necrons are concerned it has been 9 years since the the first edition came out and virtually no new Necrons are coming out to require a new Codex in the next few years. (if anyone has information on this please let me know).

As for a new army, i don't think so, but if one does it is more likely another Space Marines chapter.

shadowhawk2008
21-03-2011, 13:51
A new Necron codex may very well feel like a 'new' army its been so long since they have had anything. as for Tau, isnt there a runour that Squats might be included in their codex with an option for a Squat HQ choice too? Makes sense that Tau use any and all races under their influence i guess?

Aren't the Squat homeworlds supposed to have been much nearer to the galactic center than the Eastern Fringe where the Tau are hiding? And if that is the case, then it would be a major goof to allow Tau access to Squat units.

eldargal
21-03-2011, 13:55
I don't mean to be rude, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but that is a terrible idea. SoB were treated poorly enough being lumped in with a like-minded Inquisition faction without being stuffed in a book with a radically different Inquisition faction with a radically different way of war. You might as well stick Orks and Eldar in the same book.



The main problem for GW is that in reality the Space Marines and offshoots are taking the bulk of the revenue.

In my personal opinion is that they (GW) should have fixed up Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters Codexes and combined them forming one very tight Army and one nice Codex.

As far as Necrons are concerned it has been 9 years since the the first edition came out and virtually no new Necrons are coming out to require a new Codex in the next few years. (if anyone has information on this please let me know).

As for a new army, i don't think so, but if one does it is more likely another Space Marines chapter.

Hendarion
21-03-2011, 13:55
no new Necrons are coming out to require a new Codex in the next few years. (if anyone has information on this please let me know).Check the rumour section, you must have missed that they *will* pretty soon be updated.


Aren't the Squat homeworlds supposed to have been much nearer to the galactic center than the Eastern Fringe where the Tau are hiding? And if that is the case, then it would be a major goof to allow Tau access to Squat units.Not really. The Squat-homeworlds have been devoured by the Tyranids, so the Squats are vanished anyway. However, the Tau ever since had Demiurg-support and this is probably what they will receive in the update too. Not Squads, but their successors (in terms of race-design, not in terms of genealogy).

nedius
21-03-2011, 13:58
I think that this is where FW could come into it's own.

They already have some unique armies - chaos cults, Death Corps etc.

If they tied a new race in with a BL library book, it could do well.

Imagine if Black Library and Forgeworld had collaborated over Horus Rising, and released a MKIII power armour set AND a megarachnid set with downloadable rules. I bet there would have been a lot of sales.

homunkulus
21-03-2011, 15:10
I've been entertaining the idea while I read this thread and even stripping away the support and balance issues that would arise I'm still running into the brick wall of what. At this point I wish to point out that this is just a sharing of ideas, I feel the inclusion of extra races into existing armies can be fun, as much as I'm sure many people feel it runs against many aspects of the fluff. However I do feel that on a completely conceptual basis it'd be very hard to add an extra army that felt unique, could be fleshed out and anyone would want to play/collect.

Beyond this they also need to be somewhat justifiable. Motive and plausibility are important for an army even if they aren't the first things you think of. Of the non-human armies (and I'm lumping chaos in with those) You've got an ancient culture and the previous dominant culture still kicking around (being 'Crons and Eldar), you've got a new expansionist empire starting to make themselves felt (Tau) and two sources of largely mindless destruction on an incomprehensible scale (Nids and Orks).

Without reusing someone else's back story, you're looking at some pretty hardcore retcons to get them into the fluff. You could argue they could reuse the strategy they took with the Tau, but even then there is the massive asterisk hanging over there heads noting that without bigger threats they'd be blue ick stuck to the walls of their homes by now. The only real option is an outside force, something from beyond the known galaxy. We've got the Tyranids doing this, so the concept of a greater universe has already been established. Being then implicitly Xenos you would have to design them to be sufficiently different from the other armies that are currently available. While there may be a myriad of ways to do this, the rules of the game don't leave you with many options. Apart from an all MC army, I cant think of anything that isn't already being done by someone else. We've got elite shooting, we've got horde shooting, we've got elite CC, horde CC, mechanised infantry, mechanised gun lines, armies that are all mounted on bikes or all fly on their own, within the confines of the rules, I just can't see there being room for much more without stepping on someone's toes.

TLDR:
Where would they fit in AND make sense? I'd love to see it, but don't think it's particularly necessary.

Achaylus72
21-03-2011, 17:50
I don't mean to be rude, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but that is a terrible idea. SoB were treated poorly enough being lumped in with a like-minded Inquisition faction without being stuffed in a book with a radically different Inquisition faction with a radically different way of war. You might as well stick Orks and Eldar in the same book.

No offense taken.

I have both Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters Codexes and they share many aspects.

I just feel they could come out with an all inclusive Codex combining the best of both, but that is my personal opinion, but by no means it is the correct one.

Just look at both as they share Inquisition HQ's, they also share Inquisitorial Henchmen, Armourys are simmilar, they share the Assassins, Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and the Orbital Strikes.

I think they should have just combined the both and called it Inquisitors.

nightgant98c
21-03-2011, 17:52
I wouldn't mind more armies. That said, GW can't keep up with what they already have. I'd rather see the armies we have get the attention they deserve, rather than being neglected for years. We're in 5th edition, with 6th not too far away, and there are still armies using 3rd edition books. If they ever get to a point at which every army has a current codex, then a new army might be ok. Otherwose, it's just resources being taken from armies that need them.

Achaylus72
21-03-2011, 18:19
I wouldn't mind more armies. That said, GW can't keep up with what they already have. I'd rather see the armies we have get the attention they deserve, rather than being neglected for years. We're in 5th edition, with 6th not too far away, and there are still armies using 3rd edition books. If they ever get to a point at which every army has a current codex, then a new army might be ok. Otherwose, it's just resources being taken from armies that need them.

Well my so called current Necrons Codex came out in 2002.

FlashGordon
21-03-2011, 18:23
Codex: Custodes By Matt Ward.

Triceron
21-03-2011, 20:57
However I do feel that on a completely conceptual basis it'd be very hard to add an extra army that felt unique, could be fleshed out and anyone would want to play/collect.

Without reusing someone else's back story, you're looking at some pretty hardcore retcons to get them into the fluff...


The Warhammer universe isn't so fully realized that there is no room for 'new' xenos armies that aren't simply rebrandings of Rogue Trader. There's still a lot of possibility considering you're dealing with things like time and space travel, different dimensions and worlds that have yet to be fully explored. There isn't any limit whether a being even has to be corporeal considering we have psykers so prevalent in the universe.

I do understand that a majority of players of the tabletop game are Space Marine players. I can't say exactly if this is the reason why the universe is so slow to expand and adapt, considering many other armies are less popular by default, but I feel like there's so much untapped potential left and none of it can be explored without some kind of series reboot to get every army back on equal footing (at the very least, to spread popularity between lesser-played armies.)

Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part, as I'm tired of seeing Space Marines vs Chaos in every medium.

Dvora
21-03-2011, 21:37
Instead of a new alien race/army, I'd like to see perhaps different factions of said army. Imperial guard regiment specific codex, Craft world/Crone world specific codex and others. However, as of now the game is too bloated with armies that need to be updated, that this might not be a good idea. Until then, stick with forge-world and..hope you get to use them :)

AlexHolker
22-03-2011, 01:23
I have both Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters Codexes and they share many aspects.

I just feel they could come out with an all inclusive Codex combining the best of both, but that is my personal opinion, but by no means it is the correct one.
But the things they share are the things that Sisters players didn't ask for. What the Sisters actually need is for their background to be expanded beyond an overview of the Age of Apostasy. Shoving them in with the Grey Knights and possibly Deathwatch just ensures they'll be treated as second-class citizens even in their own book.

lordofevil
22-03-2011, 02:46
I would like to see GW put everything into better production to fix everything first. Fix the codecies that haven't been updated in a decade or so then we'll talk. I know that DE and SW both got their fixes, but I would like to see everything getting adjusted in a timely manner before we start introducing more work for them. It's not that I wouldn't like something like space slaan, just I would love to see everything they have alredy working smoothly first.

Israfael
22-03-2011, 02:54
The games current "support" isn't of the quality that it could handle a new race, in my opinion. At least, not any time in the foreseeable future.

Then you have additional problems, like where have they been hiding this entire time? Why are they now only being encountered?

Do you launch a campaign of game-wide shoehorning? Or do you have them show up as an underdog type, similar to the Tau, and then wrap them in plot armor to protect them from the true "empires"?

It's a lot of work, for possibly little return.

Jack of Blades
22-03-2011, 03:35
Then you have additional problems, like where have they been hiding this entire time? Why are they now only being encountered?

Do you launch a campaign of game-wide shoehorning? Or do you have them show up as an underdog type, similar to the Tau, and then wrap them in plot armor to protect them from the true "empires"?

It's a lot of work, for possibly little return.

I think that as a playerbase we just have to be understanding of stuff like this. They can't retcon books that are already printed to include the new race, you'll just have to assume that they were there all along. Then they will make support books and include plenty of dealing-with-the-universe fluff in the new race's background to set the stage properly.

I imagine another army of grunts. Since humanity is already pretty damn dark in 40k it's hard to take the concept further, but I still envision a darker side of humanity much like Skaven in Fantasy. They should be grimdark taken to its extreme but in the ''subtle'' sense - ie. more like several dystopias rolled into one (which need to be worse than the Imperium), such as 1984, rather than brute ''FEEL MY GRIMDARK TO THE FACE!''.

And they should not be immune to this grimdark. They are anything but fearless, unconscious or anything. They're just horribly tortured by the grimdark. They need not be a massive empire, but their numbers should be beyond counting yet horribly ineffective where an individual is hardly an acknowledged concept except for the upper levels of society. They should be a twisted version of humanity that strives not for hope-justifies-the-means like the Imperium, but simply ever deeper into its own recess. They should by ugliness personified. They should not be one with this ugliness as if they were Nurgle followers. No, they are simply caught up in it and again horribly tortured by it.

They should be the ugly, the tortured, the squalid, the despicable rolled into one. No real malice, no fearlessness or other loss of consciousness that prevents them from experiencing the magnitude of the galaxy's horrors, no ace-cards like the Eldar webway, nothing. Just grimdark ugliness. All right, that's the concepts repeated enough ;)

Triceron
22-03-2011, 21:29
'Shoehorning' a new race is never really a big issue when you have fluff like Orks being spawned from Spores and Demons summoned out of the warp/thin air all in the same universe. I don't think that would be the greatest of our worries.

I've always been hoping for a classic Invaders from Outer Space, War of the Worlds type alien race for WH40k. Something retro like classic 40's-50's sci fi movies, but with a modern twist. They'd pilot giant tripod walkers and look like sorta squid-like. The 40k tie in? Revamp them as the new Enslavers, the psychic inter-dimensional alien race that plagued a large part of humanity's history. We don't really know what they look like, or what technology they use. Maybe the Enslavers dominated a lesser race and are using them as mortal shells, literally using the bodies to become corporeal. This new army could be a good contrast to the WW2-styled Imperial Guard, reliving classic 40's Scifi in a 40k twist.

Doppleskanger
22-03-2011, 23:45
Inspiration certainly isn't a problem when you can draw on the entire Sci Fi genre. What's more an issue I think is that we have codex's that do cover lot's of different aspects that you can do with humanoid creatures. And the missing minor factions can easily be done with count as, they're more about a lack of models not rules. If they are going to do another one I would like something that either messes with scale (tiny, large or both!) or with the rules of movement and combat to reflect an alien approach, such as dimension jumping or time travel. Codex Demons is an interesting beginning to this...

Cheeslord
23-03-2011, 00:09
I fear the Permanently Half-Broken (PHB) game model prevents the support of much in the way of new armies , as it pushes the ratio of of obsolete codices from previous core rules editions to current codices even higher (unless you want new core rules editions to come out less frequently.

Creativity wise I agree with the OP there is massive scope for new races/armies. Plenty of references in the original Rogue Trader to things that just aren't payed any more.