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ORKY ARD BOYZ
21-03-2011, 08:37
I just noticed something.

Very few people complain about the quality of writing in Imperial Armour and I've actually never heard anyone complain about the background written in the works produced by Fantasy Flight Games (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader).

I mean, there was a thread in 40K background describing the events in IA 3 as unrealistic, but noone complained about the quality of detail in the actual writing.

As there seems to be a general consensus that the other companies licensed to produce Warhammer related material do it better than the parent company, why not siphon a few guys over for background writing for codices?

Lord-Caerolion
21-03-2011, 08:43
Yes, there was a thread complaining that IA3 was unrealistic, and his arguments got shot down. Really, I have to agree with you though, GW's book would be a lot better if they had some of the IA/FFG people helping out.

Hendarion
21-03-2011, 08:46
I think you're making a small mistake. The Forgeworld and DarkHeresy/RogueTrader fluff is just not as much spread and known as the the Black Library and GW-Codex-stuff is.
If all of them would be equally known, I guess you'd find the same amount of complain about them.
Actually you don't need to write bad fluff to find someone moaning about it, but you only need an audit of enough size and there *will* be people moaning.

Well... or you let "Mad Weird" or "C(razy).S(tuff).Goto" write the fluff, then you don't need a big audit.

Sev38
21-03-2011, 09:01
I just noticed something.

Very few people complain about the quality of writing in Imperial Armour and I've actually never heard anyone complain about the background written in the works produced by Fantasy Flight Games (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader).

I mean, there was a thread in 40K background describing the events in IA 3 as unrealistic, but noone complained about the quality of detail in the actual writing.

As there seems to be a general consensus that the other companies licensed to produce Warhammer related material do it better than the parent company, why not siphon a few guys over for background writing for codices?

I totally agree that this would be a good idea. I've read most of the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader background and some of the Death Watch stuff and I would say it is all better than what I've read and heard about in the newer codexes (mostly the marine ones). At least with them I haven't encountered any "wtf, thats so stupid" moments like I have with some of the codex background. Seriously a Grey knight with a daemon weapon! :eyebrows: Why couldn't they lock it in a warded cell with Gellar fields and force fields on titan? Wouldn't have to worry about it corrupting anyone then.

Can't comment on IA as I haven't read any of the background in those.

Jack of Blades
21-03-2011, 09:24
Seriously a Grey knight with a daemon weapon! :eyebrows: Why couldn't they lock it in a warded cell with Gellar fields and force fields on titan? Wouldn't have to worry about it corrupting anyone then.

To be fair a Grey Knight should be expected to withstand the corruption, that's why they can use one. As another person said, ''the most righteous have the most skeletons in the darkest closets, welcome to 40k!''

AndrewGPaul
21-03-2011, 09:54
Seriously a Grey knight with a daemon weapon!

There's a long tradition of members of the Ordo Malleus using captured daemon weapons against the Great Enemy. Generally, yes, they're forbidden. As with most things though, some more radical Inquisitors (and Grey Knights) think they're poweful enough that the prohibitions need no apply to them. After all, they's the most powerful psykers in the Imperium, are the not? They've fought against the forces of Chaos for decades without becoming corrupted. This is just another temptation to be defeated, and then the power of the weapon can be turned against its creators. Nothing can be truly forbidden in the war for Humanity's moral survival ... or is that just what the daemon whispers in the wielder's ear? The road to damnation is paved with good intentions, after all - just ask Horus.

Haravikk
21-03-2011, 10:43
It's just like Microsoft employees using iPods ;)

Fluff-wise it's just cool as well, I don't see why it's a big deal, the same objections could be levelled at demonhosts, and IMO they are more deserving as they're actual demons rather than just a creepy sword that absolutely isn't telling you to kill everyone around you...

Zweischneid
21-03-2011, 10:56
Seriously a Grey knight with a daemon weapon! :eyebrows: Why couldn't they lock it in a warded cell with Gellar fields and force fields on titan? Wouldn't have to worry about it corrupting anyone then.


Wouldn't make for a good story now would it? Why did Tolkien have a Hobbit carry around a cursed, corrupting ring of power instead of having some mighty hero drop it into a deep ocean or bury it under protective wards and spells? Welcome to fantasy-fiction.

Ivellis
21-03-2011, 11:38
Back to the original post; I honestly think if the fluff was written by FFG it would be much, MUCH better for it. I hope if GW ever crashes FFG will be the one to buy the IP.

eyescrossed
21-03-2011, 12:05
Me too. FFG are, quite frankly, amazing.

N0-1_H3r3
21-03-2011, 12:36
Me too. FFG are, quite frankly, amazing.
:D

Speaking as one of FFG's freelancers, it's really really nice to get this sort of appreciation. Dangerous to the ego, perhaps, but nice nonetheless.

Chaos and Evil
21-03-2011, 12:41
Reload this Page Why don't they hire the FFG and Forgeworld guys to write the background?
Because the core background is exactly as they want it to be: Super-hyped up and written for children.

FW & FFG treat the background in a bit more adult a manner.

eyescrossed
21-03-2011, 13:23
:D

Speaking as one of FFG's freelancers, it's really really nice to get this sort of appreciation. Dangerous to the ego, perhaps, but nice nonetheless.

I've seen you on the forums! :D (I go by the username of SubtleCadaver on there)

No but truly, the RPGs and fluff are wonderful and I actually spent about $350 purely on 40k RPG books for my birthday. My only complaint would be that all the books don't get released quick enough, although the time put into designing them is well worth the wait.

(PS: I'd give my pinky fingers to have Black Crusade right now :shifty:)

nedius
21-03-2011, 13:47
Because the core background is exactly as they want it to be: Super-hyped up and written for children.

FW & FFG treat the background in a bit more adult a manner.

I think this is something that we must all (even if begrudgingly) remember.

GW is marketed at impressionable youths to want the latest "BY THIS 2 WINZ!!!!!!!!!!" release, over hyped fluff and all.

GW have allowed their IP to be approached in a more adult manner by FFG and FW. For that we should be thankful! There was no need for them to do so. So, however much we may be dismayed at the main body of fluff, there's a silver lining, should your pocket be able to stretch to FW prices, or the entirely different style of games from FFG.

shadowhawk2008
21-03-2011, 13:48
It's just like Microsoft employees using iPods ;)

Fluff-wise it's just cool as well, I don't see why it's a big deal, the same objections could be levelled at demonhosts, and IMO they are more deserving as they're actual demons rather than just a creepy sword that absolutely isn't telling you to kill everyone around you...

That's what you would think the sword is telling you when in fact it would be trying to manipulate you into committing mass murders on a scale that Freddy and Jason would puke at.

Sai-Lauren
21-03-2011, 13:54
Not read any FFG stuff, but Forge World could do a better job of proof-reading their books for typos. ;)

eyescrossed
21-03-2011, 13:58
Dude, you need to get some of the 40k RPG books. After reading Codices... Well, it's like eating a home-cooked meal after years of microwave dinners.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-03-2011, 14:02
What, you mean books written to provide detail background information for a roleplaying game is more detailed than a book written to give you wargaming rules and provide a brief overview and introduction to a given army?

Easy E
21-03-2011, 14:03
Don't forget the Black Library, you know actual writers of stories that could... I don;t know... write the fluff stories? I think the simple answer is that they are all seperate companies now, where back int eh day they were all pretty much in the same office in Nottingham.

On a side note: I find it interesting the number of former codex writers who have gone on to write actual novels, for the GW Universe or otherwise.

eyescrossed
21-03-2011, 15:30
What, you mean books written to provide detail background information for a roleplaying game is more detailed than a book written to give you wargaming rules and provide a brief overview and introduction to a given army?
It's not the detail; it's the quality of the writing. There aren't any facepalm moments in FFG fluff, it draws you in and fits the 40k vibe better than "ZOMG CALGAR" or Dante's affair with the Necron Lord.

AlphariusOmegon20
21-03-2011, 16:24
I just noticed something.

Very few people complain about the quality of writing in Imperial Armour and I've actually never heard anyone complain about the background written in the works produced by Fantasy Flight Games (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader).

I mean, there was a thread in 40K background describing the events in IA 3 as unrealistic, but noone complained about the quality of detail in the actual writing.

As there seems to be a general consensus that the other companies licensed to produce Warhammer related material do it better than the parent company, why not siphon a few guys over for background writing for codices?

Because that would be logical and GW doesn't do anything logical....

eyescrossed
21-03-2011, 16:37
Because that would be logical and GW doesn't do anything logical....

Yeah! You think Chaos is made up? Haha! You're a deluded fool if you think that. Games Workshop is Chaos! :shifty:

Pacific
21-03-2011, 17:17
Dude, you need to get some of the 40k RPG books. After reading Codices... Well, it's like eating a home-cooked meal after years of microwave dinners.

Indeed, that's very well put!

Reading the IA books it makes the hobby seem far more 'adult' than anything in a Codex. The IA: 3 book in particular stands out as a favorite; the description of the Raptor Chapter marines air-dropping in to take out an AA installation if just so damned evocative, and I think that style of writing does more to turn me on to marines than a hundred examples of Avatars being chinned by UM commanders or any number of commanders coming back from warp space after carving a name on Mortarion's heart.

With the IA books even though you know you're dealing with a fantasy setting, it feels to me like the writers have read the 'World at War' omnibus and have carried that knowledge of military matters across into 40k, with a great deal of thought into why things work they way they do.

In many ways I think they are GW's best kept secret, both in terms of background and even rules, and it's a little bit of a shame that they are so expensive as I think even a lot of the younger plays would find their approach a lot more attractive than the writing style of the codecies.

Lexington
21-03-2011, 17:18
I think this is really the result of the company's origins, and the more organic development process that it grew from. Warhammer and 40K were crafted by a creative studio that wrote rules, sculpted miniatures and carved out two enduring settings that form the basis of the company's IP today. This set-up is clearly starting to irk consumers, though, especially given the exploding disdain for Ward's inept wordslaw, so I wonder if it's got much of a future.

Sai-Lauren
21-03-2011, 18:30
Lexington has a good point - most of the FW guys seem to be long term employees (Tony Cottrell had a build your own BaneBlade article way back in WD139 or thereabouts), wheras pretty much everyone in the the design studio since Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe first joined have mostly come in because they played WFB or 40k, and have been effectively promoted from fanboy to god of the universe.

I mean, who's still involved from the WFB 3/RT era? Aly Morrison, the Perry twins, Jes Goodwin, John Blanche and Jervis Johnson are the only names that spring to mind, and only one of those is a games designer.

FlashGordon
21-03-2011, 18:36
Fast answer to Original question: Because the codex backrounds are written by fanbois and ffg/fw are written by FANS.

Damien 1427
21-03-2011, 18:42
Not read any FFG stuff, but Forge World could do a better job of proof-reading their books for typos. ;)

They do have proofreaders. I'd assume they're rushed for time. Or just not paid terribly well. Still, speaking as a proofreader, it's a gig I wouldn't mind having.

I'd say FlashGordon hit the bloodnail on the psyhead, though.

Sev38
21-03-2011, 20:40
There's a long tradition of members of the Ordo Malleus using captured daemon weapons against the Great Enemy. Generally, yes, they're forbidden. As with most things though, some more radical Inquisitors (and Grey Knights) think they're poweful enough that the prohibitions need no apply to them. After all, they's the most powerful psykers in the Imperium, are the not? They've fought against the forces of Chaos for decades without becoming corrupted. This is just another temptation to be defeated, and then the power of the weapon can be turned against its creators. Nothing can be truly forbidden in the war for Humanity's moral survival ... or is that just what the daemon whispers in the wielder's ear? The road to damnation is paved with good intentions, after all - just ask Horus.
I totally agree that radical inquisitors use daemon weapons occasionally but there aren't really meant to be radical Greyknights.Grey Knights are meant to be completely intolerant of chaos, it is kinda their point. To them a space marine with a daemon weapon is a chaos marine.


Wouldn't make for a good story now would it? Why did Tolkien have a Hobbit carry around a cursed, corrupting ring of power instead of having some mighty hero drop it into a deep ocean or bury it under protective wards and spells? Welcome to fantasy-fiction.

Well the hobbit was taking the ring to the one place it could be destroyed while the greyknight is carrying it around for kicks apparently because it can't be destroyed and should be just as safe if not safer buried away on Titan. It justifies him carrying it because he can't be corrupted and says he doesn't draw on its power but since it gives bonuses to his opponents clearly it can corrupt those around him and therefore would be better off hidden away.



Fluff-wise it's just cool as well, I don't see why it's a big deal, the same objections could be levelled at demonhosts, and IMO they are more deserving as they're actual demons rather than just a creepy sword that absolutely isn't telling you to kill everyone around you...

A daemon weapon is just as much a daemon as a daemonhost its just bound to an object rather than a person. Based on the weapons rules it seems to tell everyone around him to kill him which in some ways is worse because that means it can influence those within close proximity to him. I agree the objection could be raised against daemon hosts. I find it moronic that a grey knight army is very likely to have more daemons in it than their opponent(most armies have none and they can have whole squads of them). At least with daemon hosts its the inquisitors using them not the grey knights directly I suppose.

On topic: I hadn't really thought about it but I agree that FFG approaches the background in a more mature manner which leads to less stuff sounding like it was written by fanboys and keeps xenos and chaos sounding like a threat because one space marine isn't burning down realms of chaos or fist fighting xenos gods and winning.

RunepriestRidcully
21-03-2011, 21:14
40k and fantasy started as roleplaying games, and now people who like decent fluff are turning to the role playing games again, guess things go in circles.

Emeraldw
21-03-2011, 21:18
I totally agree that radical inquisitors use daemon weapons occasionally (funny its not an option for them in the book) but there aren't really meant to be radical Greyknights.Grey Knights are meant to be completely intolerant of chaos, it is kinda their point. To them a space marine with a daemon weapon is a chaos marine.

To be fair, the fluff point for that particular Grey Knight having it is fine. They can't seem to destroy the sword, and throwing it into space doesn't sound like a good idea either. So they have the most pure men in the universe (at least from chaos taint) carry it. It isn't that bad really.

As for the topic point: I do like FFG's books a lot. I have all 3 core books, Rites of Battle and Ascension. You really get a good feel for the 40k universe though them. The rules while made for an RPG, make sense as to how some of the crazy stuff in stories come true. Especially for Marines.

Fluff wise, they are telling it for a setting, and not epic heroes. I am very curious as to how they would tell the story of Draigo, Calgar and such. The issue isn't so much the content, as it is the telling I bet. Perhaps FFG could write Draigo in a way that isn't so hated.

I will also take this moment to plug the RPG games. If you like Role-playing, I highly suggest looking up the 3 current games (and upcoming 4th), not only are they all unique from each other, they are very different from standard D&D. I am not a big fan of D&D but it is ok. These are amazing systems and the universe itself lets you do w/e the **** you want with it.

Lexington
21-03-2011, 21:30
Fluff wise, they are telling it for a setting, and not epic heroes.
I think what bothers many (definitely me) is that, previous to late 4th Edition and all of 5th Edition, 40K itself wasn't about "epic heroes." There were heroes, sure, but they didn't stomp fighting the biggest beasties out there, and their achievements tended to be strategic.

I agree that 40K oughtn't be written like an RPG, but it also shouldn't be written like a cut-rate video game, which is the sad state we're in now.

Lord Damocles
21-03-2011, 21:31
There aren't any facepalm moments in FFG fluff
Their massive overstating of naval crew sizes being the exception which proves the rule :shifty:

Gatsby
21-03-2011, 21:32
To be fair a Grey Knight should be expected to withstand the corruption, that's why they can use one.

yet they need to murder the most pure, devout and loyal Sisters of Battle to resist corruption... OH and not JUST murder them, BATHE IN THE BLOOD!!!

Ward had done to the fluff what what an M1 Abrams does to a squishy insurgent... obliterate it.

Ive read FFG background and i agree, if they handed that job over to them (and possibly the guys who do the Dornian Heresy, they seem legit) id be much happier. Ive never read forgeworld background though.

ForgottenLore
21-03-2011, 21:40
I've actually never heard anyone complain about the background written in the works produced by Fantasy Flight Games (Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader).

Well, I haven't actually had an opportunity to read any of the FFG RPG fluff myself but from what I have heard about it from threads on this forum it doesn't sound like I would like it.

Would love to borrow some to read for myself, but no one around here plays.


Why did Tolkien have a Hobbit carry around a cursed, corrupting ring of power instead of having some mighty hero drop it into a deep ocean or bury it under protective wards and spells?

Well, they explain that when someone says "Why don't we drop the ring into the ocean so it is never found" and someone answers "Because...." and list a whole slew of reasons why that wouldn't work.

Dvora
21-03-2011, 21:56
I really like Forge-worlds fluff, it's just written well. GW's lately has had too much derp for me to handle.

Charlie Scene
21-03-2011, 22:53
Doesn't IA have Caliban listed as the Dark Angels current home-world, and main source of recruiting?

Yeah, no thanks. They seem as uninformed about the setting as Ward.

Nick Blastbeat
21-03-2011, 23:20
I think this is really the result of the company's origins, and the more organic development process that it grew from. Warhammer and 40K were crafted by a creative studio that wrote rules, sculpted miniatures and carved out two enduring settings that form the basis of the company's IP today. This set-up is clearly starting to irk consumers, though, especially given the exploding disdain for Ward's inept wordslaw, so I wonder if it's got much of a future.

Your point makes a lot of sense and I hope you're right about the possibility for change. I won't hold my breath however. Still, despite what you said, I have never understood why something like a codex has 'an author'. What happened to division of labour? I realise that in practice, many people contribute, but it still seems beside the point to have an author specified and it is plausibly setting up the wrong incentives for the writers to stamp their personality on the product. So here's hoping for dedicated background writers, culled from FFG, FW or whever else they can find them.

SaschaKreiger
21-03-2011, 23:28
I've only looked over the IA books, but they're amazing, especially the most recent ones. There's one that I'm thinking about buying for the campaigns it has for fighting against the Tau.

Also, I can't stand a lot of the 40k fluff in the army books any more. It's all more of the same "worlds were torn asunder" "his adamantium hide was rent and torn" "LOLZOMG amazing victory" and the descriptions of the Warp and Daemons sound like descriptions of 4chan or something with all the "visions of insanity" stuff repeated.

Pacific
22-03-2011, 03:51
I think what bothers many (definitely me) is that, previous to late 4th Edition and all of 5th Edition, 40K itself wasn't about "epic heroes." There were heroes, sure, but they didn't stomp fighting the biggest beasties out there, and their achievements tended to be strategic.

I agree that 40K oughtn't be written like an RPG, but it also shouldn't be written like a cut-rate video game, which is the sad state we're in now.

I agree, and you could argue that the concept of the 'hero' runs contrary to the core concepts of what makes '40k' what it is. What was the quote about a hundred heroes dying 'unseen and unremembered'? One of the things which I thought used to distance it from other fantasy or sci-fi franchises was that it stayed firmly away from the likes of small bands of warriors growing in comradeship, and defeating the foe against impossible odds. If Luke Skywalker had grown up as part of the 40k universe, he would have been off on a blackship to earth, his powers never utilised, and it would have been scummy PDF forces which burnt his parents farm to the ground if they tried to resist. :)

Who was the guy on the cover of the RT rulebook, in the centre holding the orc's head in the air? He's almost certainly a hero, he's leading his men right until the end, but you know looking at the picture that all of them are going to die.

But then, when it comes down to it $20 blisters of 'soldier x' wouldn't sell I guess :)

PapaDoc
22-03-2011, 10:33
Hiring the Forgeworld or Fantasy Flight crew to write would be expensive. Fantasy Flight Games makes far better fluff than you can find in the later codices. However, I think we cannot blame GW but ourselves. It is our fault we want "bigger" codices and not smaller ones like those from 3ed. With more pages you need text to fill them out.

In the end, the fans vote with their money and Matt Ward sells extremly well. This is something you can't argue with. People have to stop buying everything he writes for him to change.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
22-03-2011, 11:25
Well, I haven't actually had an opportunity to read any of the FFG RPG fluff myself but from what I have heard about it from threads on this forum it doesn't sound like I would like it.


Really? From what I've read, (The Rogue Trader Rulebook, bits of Dark Heresy and Death Watch) they just add detail to the universe, for example they name planets, describe the nature of warp travel and make the universe seem more believable. Can you be more specific in what gave you an impression that you would dislike it?




Doesn't IA have Caliban listed as the Dark Angels current home-world, and main source of recruiting?

Yeah, no thanks. They seem as uninformed about the setting as Ward.

Not sure about this, (I need to read up on my IA) but I'd say the detail on their campaigns are amazing. For example, in Siege of Vraks part 3 they describe the politics behind warfare that I found startingly realistic. The Imperium isn't a cooperative bunch, and each faction have their own agenda and basically fleshes out what goes on behind the scenes. I loved it.

Don't you think it's forgivable if they screwed up with one detail if they breathe life and nuance into the universe as compensation?

Easy E
22-03-2011, 13:08
In the end, the fans vote with their money and Matt Ward sells extremly well. This is something you can't argue with. People have to stop buying everything he writes for him to change.

Done. I have never bought anything that Mat Ward has produced, or C.S. Goto for that matter.

shadowhawk2008
22-03-2011, 13:22
Fast answer to Original question: Because the codex backrounds are written by fanbois and ffg/fw are written by FANS.

Haha love this. Sounds so true.


Doesn't IA have Caliban listed as the Dark Angels current home-world, and main source of recruiting?

Yeah, no thanks. They seem as uninformed about the setting as Ward.

They have the occasional hiccup but otherwise the fluff is usually quite interesting and informative.


I've only looked over the IA books, but they're amazing, especially the most recent ones. There's one that I'm thinking about buying for the campaigns it has for fighting against the Tau.

Also, I can't stand a lot of the 40k fluff in the army books any more. It's all more of the same "worlds were torn asunder" "his adamantium hide was rent and torn" "LOLZOMG amazing victory" and the descriptions of the Warp and Daemons sound like descriptions of 4chan or something with all the "visions of insanity" stuff repeated.

The Badab Books and the Kastorel-Novem one are excellent sources of fluff. Although I did want a lot more information on the Raven Guard than was given.

KingDeath
22-03-2011, 13:48
Their massive overstating of naval crew sizes being the exception which proves the rule :shifty:

I would argue that FFG's massive crewsizes perfectly fit the Imperium of Man, which is known for it's quite low amount of automation on it's huge, city sized ships

doubleT
22-03-2011, 13:58
Technically, FW is a subsidiary company and thus GW could always decide to let / have them write the codizes. I'd agree with most people in this thread, that such a codex would be more sound and maybe darker and generally more appealing to adults, instead of the shiny and over-coloured "ZOMFG AWESOME LOL gottahavethis" codizes.

FW has some stylistic devices that would help some codizes a lot:

1st: edited photos
Instead of a mix of photos of the miniatures on tables and drawings in an outdated fashion, FW uses photoshoped photos of their miniatures in cool settings and technical drawings. Their books really look like compositions of data sheets of your tanks. I like this.

2nd: one good story
IA books have one good and long story instead of several half-pages full of some fanboy-crap noone wants to read. OK, I know that the IA books cover a campain with two or more sides, rather than just one army, so it's more complex and better material for a story, but I think it'd be possible to write one big story that explains the armie's background in a codex instead of several small patches spread over the book.

3rd: self-control and restraint (right word?)
It's my understanding that FW has given us a lot of cool models and options and that a lot of people out there think that because of the awesome grade of details and the heavy price, these models must be absolutely powerful in the game. Yet when you compare stats and rules, you will see that FW is rather carefull not to make their models too powerful and actually put a lot of thought into balancing the complete army list / entries. With GW I sometimes think they just go for the first thing that comes to their mind ("ZOMFG this absolutely has to have S10!! Because it's like, sooooo awesome, OMFGlol!") while FW seems to debate or even think about what they're writing down.

That's why I like the Siege Regiment Army List. This list is really balanced. Yes, they have +1 WS and a lot of other advantages but they don't have Chimeras or Valks so there's a completely different gameplay needed with the Siege Regiment.

When thinking about a Codex: IG made by FW, I imagine that they'd make three or four different army lists which you could chose. So one would have the advantage A and B but wouldn't be allowed to take C and D while the other is the exact opposite. One army could have Sentinels as troop choices but wouldn't be allowed to take anything with tracks, etc.

All of this would be based on elaborate background stories and it would create a bigger diversity and open different options to play the IG.

Meanwhile, GW kills diversity and encourages the use of sheer power rather than thoughtfull tactics, persuading the young kids to buy the latest and most shiny "toy" because it's "the only one" that can beat all other armies on its own.

Because it's realistic that your army consists of veterans in chimeras only ...

Then again, when I read through the stories of the Siege of Vraks, I was a little disappointed that in the end the Death Korps only became extras standing around while the SM did the job. (But even then, the CSM really were equal to them, killing a lot of their highest characters! Think about that, Mat!)

johnnyrumour
22-03-2011, 13:59
Alan Bligh of IA9 and 10 fame (Forge World writer) also writes for FFG and has done some Call of Cthluhlu/Arkham Horror stuff as well. Coincidence?

ForgottenLore
22-03-2011, 15:31
Really? From what I've read, (The Rogue Trader Rulebook, bits of Dark Heresy and Death Watch) they just add detail to the universe, for example they name planets, describe the nature of warp travel and make the universe seem more believable. Can you be more specific in what gave you an impression that you would dislike it?

Primarily the direction the have pushed the Tau fluff, with strong rumors of mass sterilizations and the like. It may well be well written, but from the references to it on various threads here it comes across as contrary to how the Tau have been presented in most other sources.

theJ
22-03-2011, 15:48
@ForgottenLore:
And how have the Tau been presented in most other sources then?

If you are refering to "hippie Tau", who would never harm another being, then no, it is quite different. Then again, this is the accepted approach to the Tau. The 'original' idea of the Tau who were actually good guys didn't fit into the setting, and so they've had a number of "darkifications" over the years.

The idea is that, yes, the Tau are "good", but they are only "good" so long as you help them fulfil the greater good. If you oppose it, whether willingly or not, then you are an obstacle, and obstacles are dealt with.... permanently.
The sterilisations are there as a way of solving future problems. Some.... 'people'... seem to be inherently unruly, or might suffer some unwanted features, and so they are cut out of the genepool, to prevent those features from spreading.
It's fairly logical, to be perfectly honest. It's also a lot more humane than the methods used by, say, the Imperium.
History will have to tell whether it proves more effective.

Mannimarco
22-03-2011, 16:19
Then again, when I read through the stories of the Siege of Vraks, I was a little disappointed that in the end the Death Korps only became extras standing around while the SM did the job. (But even then, the CSM really were equal to them, killing a lot of their highest characters! Think about that, Mat!)

Like how Arkos turned up at the battle for the spaceport kicked the crap out of Azrael (chapter master of the DA), cleaved through a marine with one slash, got shot by an assault cannon, picked himself up dusted himself off and went on his merry way only to reappear later on on the story where he killed the chapter master of the Angels of Absolution before eventually being defeated by Interrogator Chaplain Belphagor.

Ben
22-03-2011, 23:44
@ForgottenLore:
And how have the Tau been presented in most other sources then?

If you are refering to "hippie Tau", who would never harm another being, then no, it is quite different. Then again, this is the accepted approach to the Tau. The 'original' idea of the Tau who were actually good guys didn't fit into the setting, and so they've had a number of "darkifications" over the years.

The idea is that, yes, the Tau are "good", but they are only "good" so long as you help them fulfil the greater good. If you oppose it, whether willingly or not, then you are an obstacle, and obstacles are dealt with.... permanently.
The sterilisations are there as a way of solving future problems. Some.... 'people'... seem to be inherently unruly, or might suffer some unwanted features, and so they are cut out of the genepool, to prevent those features from spreading.
It's fairly logical, to be perfectly honest. It's also a lot more humane than the methods used by, say, the Imperium.
History will have to tell whether it proves more effective.

Also worth bearing in mind that the codex backgrounds all tend to be incredibly biased about how great race x. When the Tau write their history books they'll be skipping over the mass sterilisations, like the Imperium skip over the first battle for Armageddon.

Grubnar
28-03-2011, 01:17
Also worth bearing in mind that the codex backgrounds all tend to be incredibly biased about how great race x. When the Tau write their history books they'll be skipping over the mass sterilisations, like the Imperium skip over the first battle for Armageddon.

"History is written by the victors" - Unknown

Indeed. :evilgrin:

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 01:38
Didn't the whole sterilisation bussines slip into Tau fluff with one of the dawn of war expansions? Dark crusade I believe?

Still a lot more friendly than everyone else: "We won't kill you, but you won't have kids either."
Al Bundy would be proud of them.

otakuzoku
31-03-2011, 06:13
the matt ward stuff sells because if you want to play you have no choice.
i dislike the current fluff the mentality of be hero a or b and be awesome. calgar should be a legendary character but there is no way he should be on the table.he should be just in the back story.

the main thing is to rember GW is all about making money, suer it used to be about the hobby but now it just making money and the ones that have the money are kids, who will pester there parents to buy models that for most will be forgotten in a few months once they move on to the next big thing. but thay have already given gw 300 so they dont care. the ones that stick with it longer get sucked in to the codex arms race with there friends. the last thing gw want is someone sticking with one army. whats the average cost of of a 1750 point army 250. if you only stick with one army you may build up 3000 points of models they may only get 500 out of but you buy 3 different armys at 1750 and they make 750+ one slightly more powerful than the last. never to far over powered always aware that there next codex is coming out in a few months. its like being a gun maker and selling every one pistols, congratulations thay got pistols but you need money. so you bring out a sub-machine gun. once one person got one they all want one. but soon every one has them. but you've been smart and got the assault-rifle ready and the machine-gun for after that. sure the guy with the the sub machine gun got good odds against the assault rifle and maybe given some luck the machine gun. but the dude with the pistol is up **** creak. GW works on the same principal. the fluff in the codex is written to make it clear to kids that the assult rifle is better than the sub machine gun.

N0-1_H3r3
31-03-2011, 06:44
the main thing is to rember GW is all about making money
Of course they are... they've been on the London Stock Exchange for nearly 17 years now, so this is

a) hardly a new thing

and

b) entirely natural for a company which has a responsibility to make a profit.

Charlie Scene
31-03-2011, 07:43
Don't you think it's forgivable if they screwed up with one detail if they breathe life and nuance into the universe as compensation?

That all depends on the extent of their "mistakes".

Anggul
31-03-2011, 10:56
Forgeworld lost a lot of credibility when they thought up the Land Raider Achilles.

Herp derp Imperium can make better than Necron living metal!

I'm not even a Necron player and that annoys me.

shadowhawk2008
31-03-2011, 11:31
According to who?

The armour on the LRA makes sense especially if the construction/material is similar to what is used on starship hulls. Even the Caestus is quite similar.

TimLeeson
31-03-2011, 11:36
I cant disagree, I dont even play any of the FFG stuff but I buy it because the backround is always so damn good! and unlike GW they like their minor xeno races and stuff. I'd be more than happy if FFG took over the backround - probably be more cooler artwork of lesser known stuff ect!

Iracundus
31-03-2011, 11:38
According to who?

The armour on the LRA makes sense especially if the construction/material is similar to what is used on starship hulls. Even the Caestus is quite similar.

It is far too much for a tank, considering the Necrons are supposed to have the best armor technology.

You have a vehicle that ignored lance and melta rules, and imposed a penalty to damage rolls, while also having Extra Armor and Machine Spirit. The net result was a vehicle that an enemy could destroy only due to lucky rolls, Destroyer weaponry (requiring an Apocalypse game), or specifically tailoring towards it. Meanwhile the LRA could always fire a weapon, and could even add on yet more ablative weapons to make it even tougher. There was no counterbalancing downside like the Phase Out rule for Necrons and it moves no slower than other LR. If the only reasonable tactic short of specifically tailoring to take it out, is to ignore it, then there is something that isn't right.

It in other words did almost everything that Living Metal did, did something in addition Living Metal did not do, and did not sacrifice much if anything to achieve it.

In this case the Necrons suffered a similar situation to the Eldar Bright Lance, in that despite all the talk of them being advanced, the Imperium then comes out with something that trumps it.

shadowhawk2008
31-03-2011, 11:57
Hmm... never quite thought about it that way. I guess that seems reasonable.

ORKY ARD BOYZ
31-03-2011, 12:26
It is far too much for a tank, considering the Necrons are supposed to have the best armor technology.

You have a vehicle that ignored lance and melta rules, and imposed a penalty to damage rolls, while also having Extra Armor and Machine Spirit. The net result was a vehicle that an enemy could destroy only due to lucky rolls, Destroyer weaponry (requiring an Apocalypse game), or specifically tailoring towards it. Meanwhile the LRA could always fire a weapon, and could even add on yet more ablative weapons to make it even tougher. There was no counterbalancing downside like the Phase Out rule for Necrons and it moves no slower than other LR. If the only reasonable tactic short of specifically tailoring to take it out, is to ignore it, then there is something that isn't right.

It in other words did almost everything that Living Metal did, did something in addition Living Metal did not do, and did not sacrifice much if anything to achieve it.

In this case the Necrons suffered a similar situation to the Eldar Bright Lance, in that despite all the talk of them being advanced, the Imperium then comes out with something that trumps it.

Yeah I think it's a bit extreme. That said, this is the exception rather than the rule, and I feel the majority of their rules are either balanced or underpowered. (e.g. Tyrant's Legion list.)


That all depends on the extent of their "mistakes".

Well, shouldn't be a problem then. Most of the mistakes they make are hardly game breaking rules wise or 'wtf' moment fluff wise.

otakuzoku
31-03-2011, 16:25
i would love to be neive and think that GW will get there act together and get the FFG and forgeworld guys to do 6th edition, that would have no named characters on the table, new ways to play decided on a dice roll so you can play like they do now or have you move, i move move, you shoot, i shoot and possibly even more. armys that play certan ways and although diffrent are very ballenced, with strengths and weaknesses. and all the codex are all relaced at the same time. and are immune to the screams of 10 year old space marine players who want all the toys the other armys have. and with well written fluff and............... who am i kidding this is GW and the codex arms race is working for them

SgtTaters
31-03-2011, 17:11
DH and FW don't add to the 40k galaxy, they only detail some existing pieces

people don't get pissed off about additional details

What people get pissed off about is new things and changes to existing things, which is what codex writers do. That's the difference between them.

If DH and FW had free reign to reinvent the current 40k races they'd probably put out more fluff that makes the fanboy go "OMG WTF!?!?"

Mannimarco
31-03-2011, 18:30
If DH and FW had free reign to reinvent the current 40k races they'd probably put out more fluff that makes the fanboy go "OMG WTF!?!?"

Personal opinion or fact based on experience with FW and DH/FFG fluff?

If its fact please provide several pieces of FW/DH fluff which are more :wtf: than the current crop of "GW proper".

The fluff from both FW and FFG is considerably better than the current batch of fluff. I can safely say I have waaaay more :wtf: moments reading a codex than I do any of their material.

N0-1_H3r3
31-03-2011, 18:41
If DH and FW had free reign to reinvent the current 40k races they'd probably put out more fluff that makes the fanboy go "OMG WTF!?!?"
Actually, FFG were given free reign to define the origins and structure of the Deathwatch beyond the little that already existed about them.

MrInsomniac
31-03-2011, 18:55
Personal opinion or fact based on experience with FW and DH/FFG fluff?

If its fact please provide several pieces of FW/DH fluff which are more :wtf: than the current crop of "GW proper".

The fluff from both FW and FFG is considerably better than the current batch of fluff. I can safely say I have waaaay more :wtf: moments reading a codex than I do any of their material.

And, just like the OP, that's your opinion...

I happen to agree with you, I just don't agree with shooting down one view by offering your own.

Notanoob
31-03-2011, 22:44
DH and FW don't add to the 40k galaxy, they only detail some existing pieces
The only IA books whose story was already written are the two Badab War books. Everything else is their own invention, along with plenty of unheard of vehicles and such.

insectum7
31-03-2011, 22:57
A: Different target audience.

Hook 'em while they're young. I believe they want the codexes to act like a gateway drug.