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Donkeycow
21-03-2011, 15:28
So, i just had my first few games the other day with my Brets and... i got pounded hard haha. Now, it was a very small point limit set of games (750) and i'm aware Brets do worse the lower the points, but i was hardly even able to touch my skaven opponent, and i have no idea how i can at least give a proper fight let alone win. I fielded 20 Men at Arms, 16 Archers, 12 Knights, Naked BSB, and a level 2 Damsel (with the men at arms). My opponent had a Lightning Cannon(grrr), Level 2 Grey Seer, 50 slaves, x2 units of 30ish clan rats, and 2 warp fire throwers.

In my first game, i killed about 2 clan rats with arrow fire and nothing else. He just slaughtered every single knight in my knight train with 2 shots from his cannon, and obliterated my Men @ Arms with lucky magic. I surrendered turn 3 when all my knights were dead, and i only had about 13 archers and 6 Men at Arms left alive.

In the second game i was far more aggressive, but only a single knight lived to see combat (yet he did still manage to slaughter the 50 slaves... what a hero) and i only killed about 6 Clan Rats from shooting. This game i fought to the end. By turn 5 all my knights and damsel were dead, and my few remaining Men at Arms and Archers were fleeing. Once again, he killed almost all my knights before they could act due to his cannon.

Now, my main issue was that my 250 pt unit of knights was just not able to cross the battlefield before they got pounded into nothing by a 90 point cannon. If my knights managed to cross the field, i would have at least been able to give my opponent a bloody nose. Also, no matter what i do, his cannon will be in LOS of my Knights because he waits for me to place my knights before he puts his cannon down. I really don't know how i can get my Knights into combat, any advice? Even if i do forfeit my prayer (which i did not do in either game) going first is still not a certain, and even if i did, he would still get at least one cannon strike that i don't have a single armour or ward save against. And that is a lot of unsavable wounds when you add the cannon strike and the explosion that comes afterwards.

Also, i can't shoot his bloody cannon because he hides it behind his slaves, thus giving him hard cover and for some reason the rules allow him to just blast through all his ranks of men (this seemed sketchy to me) without hurting any of them or them blocking his LOS.

Finally, even if i do manage to get past his cannon, between steadfast and strength in numbers, his clan rats (and even his slaves if his general is nearby) are essentially unbreakable. This friend of mine is likely to be one of my more common opponents, and i would like to be able to do some form of damage even if i can't win. By the next time i play him i'll be up to 850 points and add a treb and possibly trade out my damsel for another mounted pali with a magic weapon of some sort, and he will likely add jezzails... who will also be sniping my Knights haha. Any advice you guys may have would be great, thanks for your time!

-Donkeycow

Eatery
21-03-2011, 15:53
In all honesty i would ask him to lower his army to 600-500 pts. reason being skaven are crazy good at lower level games and brets are the exact opposite.

another option is to lose the archers as they are doing little for you. if at all possible ignore the slaves and put everything towards his generals unit. or kite his units away from the general. skaven need that leadership bonus or they are rolling tests on 5-7s with steadfast.

apbevan
21-03-2011, 16:57
Warplightning cannon fires like a cannon and ANY models touched by its bounce or template take damage. Only Skaven slaves can be shot into while engaged in combat. He must have a Lvl 2 warlock engineer not a Grey Seer.

3 pegasus knights might help with the cannon as they get a 12" vanguard move and should then be able to charge it.
Use your archers on his warpfire throwers.
If his cannon keeps firing through your lance form up 6x2 instead to minimize damage.
I wouldn't normally use a banner of defence in such a small game but if his cannon is truly the problem equip your BSB with it.

Without changing the models you use, try this list out:
Damsel Lvl 2 Lore of Beasts, Prayer Icon - 130pts
20 Men@Arms, Full Command - 127pts

Paladin BSB, Banner of Defence - 104pts
11 KotR, Full Command- 288pts

16 Archers with Villein in 8x2 formation - 101pts
Total 750

If you want to work in in pegasus knights drop the Archers and 3 KotR.

russellmoo
21-03-2011, 21:23
Take a paladin with the Virtue of the Impetuous knight- or better yet take one mounted on a pegasus- the peg build is an awesome build- you now will charge on average 21-22 inches-

Same also works with a paladin in a unit of knights- you could take a min- sized unit for warmachine hunting (he should ignore it with his cannon in favor of the larger block of knights)- add in the banner of swiftness and you can now charge around 19-20 inches on average-

Playing that small of a game, I personally don't like that your opponent took a warp lightning cannon-

You'd be better off if he had taken an HPA- Bret's are awesome at monster hunting-

Also apbevan's list is pretty good- but if you can try taking two units of knights- ideally run something like 8 and 5- the 8 build as apbevan has them, then build the other 5 with banner of swiftness, and a virtue of impetuous knight- of course to do this you will have to find 2 more knights and a character-

Lord Solar Plexus
21-03-2011, 21:37
How did one knight slaughter a fully ranked unit? Even with a charge he's at -2 to start with.

Anyways, he cannot simply shoot through units. His cannon must be able to have Line of Sight to the spot or model he is aiming at. He will certainly be able to see the knights above the Slaves but a point on the ground in front of them? Hardly.

Kevlar
21-03-2011, 21:53
Okay, shoot his warpfire throwers first, not his clanrats. Your archers will kill the warpfire throwers easily. All they get is a 4+ cover save and only if they are within 3" of the unit they started the game with.

To take out the cannon as stated, use a hero on pegasus. Instead of one big knight bus, maybe take two units of six? Flank charge his ranked infantry and they take all leadership tests on a 7 at best! And that is only in range of the general. His slaves test on 2 and his regular clan rats 5 outside the general's bubble.

Buff your knights with beast or life magic.

Remember, the skaven cannon is nasty, but it is nowhere near as powerful as a regular cannon. Half the time it does nothing, it misfires, rolls 2 or 4 for str and that is fairly useless. Plus it can misfire on the initial shot and blow itself up rather easily.

Also, mounted yeomen can get that cannon. They are pretty cheap and fast enough to get outside the units blocking LOS.

apbevan
21-03-2011, 22:16
@ Russelmoo
It looks like he is going for a more balanced list instead of all knights. There are advantages of MSU in that he can engage more units at once or from different angles but a larger unit also gives him the ranks to break steadfast.

@ Lord Solar Plexus
It must have been his paladin BSB which would have 3 attacks and +1 combat res and a reroll on Ld... or a heroic(lucky) knight or a knight that did not know the rules as it only his second battle.

The new warplightning cannon model can easily see over the rat units but because the model is so big it would not benefit from any cover either as more than half of it is visible to the archers.

@ Kevlar
I don't think a Paladin on Pegasus is a good idea as cannons are excellent at sniping characters. If he prays that is 2 shots before he even has a chance but even then the cannon might be protected by rats not allowing a charge on the front/flank.
On top of that his Warlock engineer will also target him and he will have to drop his damsel unless he wants to put his BSB on a pegasus.

With only a lvl2 Damsel definitely take Beasts as it guarantees you a good buff spell

@ Donkeycow
Personally I think your list is good and versatile. The banner of Defence is a tweak specific to your problem but should be replaced with the Sword of Might and Enchanted shield for an all comers list.

Your new to the game so learning the rules, strategies with your army and how opponents armies work will help you play better and that all comes with experience by playing the game.

Welcome to Warhammer and Bretonnia

Donkeycow
21-03-2011, 23:37
The knight that won the battle against the slaves was the unit champion. He killed with both his attacks, and his mount killed one too. Furthermore he had +1 combat res for charging, so i won combat by 1 cause all he had was 3 for ranks (hard to crack 2+ armour). It was a pretty lucky combat, but made me smile haha.

Also thanks all for the comments, it has given me a TON to consider. I do have a pegasus knight model which can stand in for a peg pally, i also have another pally on horseback, and a few extra knight models, i have 16 in total but was only able to field 12 at the limit. I also placed an order for a treb. So i can try out some of the idea's suggested, but i don't want to tailor too too much to this one specific player.

Also, just a quick question, are there any nice little tricks to help me set up an effective flank without getting charged before i can get it off? (cause as far as i know there is no way to get a flank attack unless you start the phase already in that sides arc).

russellmoo
22-03-2011, 00:04
The best way to flank is to lock a unit in at the front- your M@A are ideal for this role, Knights of the realm can also work- but this is why it's best if you take two units of cavalry as it will make it easier to flank charge-

Peg knights are very good flankers- due to vanguard-

But, in 8th flanking is much harder to do- you can also use small units of bowmen as bait to try and pull off a flank charge-

Kevlar
22-03-2011, 00:59
Peg knights only add combat resolution though, they won't take away skaven rank bonus, or leadership. Better off getting them set up for a crucial rear charge or just use them to execute his general.