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Achaylus72
21-03-2011, 18:25
As someone who hates building metal figurines, are there those out there that think it is time that GW switches to a complete plastic line.

I personally would love GW getting rid of Metal and replace it with Plastic.

FabricatorGeneralMike
21-03-2011, 18:29
As someone who hates building metal figurines, are there those out there that think it is time that GW switches to a complete plastic line.

I personally would love GW getting rid of Metal and replace it with Plastic.

"Sucks to be you" ;)

Personally I like metal figgies. =o]

fluffymcfluff
21-03-2011, 18:29
I second that motion. Plastic kits are so much better on so many levels. I do think that the metal models have more detail, with the plastic kits conversions and options are alot better. To each their own I guess

ForgottenLore
21-03-2011, 18:32
I would wholeheartedly support that move. Hate metal figs.

Not gonna happen though. At least, not for a LONG time. the economics of plastic just make it not terribly suitable for characters and the like that people will only want one of.

If they would just do all the troops and big things in plastic I would be a seriously happy camper though.

Dronevil
21-03-2011, 18:32
There's just something about the weight of an old metal SM Dreadnought that makes me happy.

IcedAnimals
21-03-2011, 18:36
I love my metal models. I love putting my sisters of battle down and knowing they won't fall over in a breeze. Then watch as my opponent can't get his to stand up straight unless he puts a weight in the base.

Cry of the Wind
21-03-2011, 18:36
They are doing this already, nothing new with that idea... Looking at the new stuff the detail has even exceeded metal models in many ways.

That said I like some metal models, the weight is comforting for some undefinable reason. So now I place pennies and nickels into my bases :D Metal models also make you a better hobbiest as you have to plan your conversions a little more and have more patience when doing them. It is a valuable skill in the hobby to know how to pin and greenstuff gaps properly.

bocaj
21-03-2011, 18:41
I love the versatility of plastic with making and converting but metal models are great for special characters and HQ models as they give more detail and you really should spend the same amount of time making a 10 man* bloodletter squad as putting together a great unclean one (its the same pts total). However some HQ units should be plastic for ease of making and price of production such as the greater demons as they take the mick to put together when you don't have access to a pin vice.

*Should it be 10 demon cos they aren't actually men...

Achaylus72
21-03-2011, 18:43
There's just something about the weight of an old metal SM Dreadnought that makes me happy.

Especially if you drop it on you little toe.

Seriously we have GW replace nearly all those Space Marine Dreadnoughts over to plastic but we have that Chaos one still in metal and looking very tired and old and needing a very sorely needed upgrade.

I am willing to come half way, i'll concede Characters to metal, but troops should be Plastic.

I would love to see Plague, Noise Marines and 1000 Sons be completely plastic.

I just want to cut off a part and be assured it will fit, but with Noise Marines i got sick and tried to having to twist and bend sonic blasters to fit.

MarcoSkoll
21-03-2011, 18:46
How much do you hate them? Enough to pay two or three times more for a plastic version?

Bear in mind, the thing with plastic is that the materials are cheap (few pence per sprue), the moulds are expensive (10,000 upwards for a single sprue).
Vice versa with metal. A few times more in materials per model, but only 200-500 for the mould.

For models where there are not going to be many sales, it makes much more sense to do them in metal because Expected sales * (Price per model - (Cost of transport and materials per model)) - cost of producing the mould comes out much better. Because while you're making a smaller profit per model, you've also got less start up costs to pay back.

Hence, for many of the things they've brought out in metal, it actually means they're sold cheaper than if they were plastic.


I love putting my sisters of battle down and knowing they won't fall over in a breeze. Then watch as my opponent can't get his to stand up straight unless he puts a weight in the base.
Meh. I'd sooner have the plastic models with a penny in the base. Lower centre of gravity - stands up better on an incline.

decker_cky
21-03-2011, 18:46
Looking at the new stuff the detail has even exceeded metal models in many ways.

Some plastics are getting close to metal details, but even in terms of pure details, it's not there yet. In terms of flexibility of poses (undercuts), metal is still much better.

Hrw-Amen
21-03-2011, 18:57
Some of the old metal SOB and IG figures are excellent in my opinion and I hope that whenever they get around to new plastic versions they are at least as good.

For me the problem comes with metal when you have models with several bits that require a lot of work filling gaps and so on, or those which are part plastic and part metal, where the metal bits are warped and just don't fit anything like as well.

I do like the mass of metal though. Plastic Terminators just did not feel like they deserved to be terminators when they first came out even though they were slightly bigger.

Bellygrub
21-03-2011, 18:59
I love my metal models. I love putting my sisters of battle down and knowing they won't fall over in a breeze. Then watch as my opponent can't get his to stand up straight unless he puts a weight in the base.

You must have magical metals then. Mine are constantly toppling over...especially on any kind of an incline.

Raibaru
21-03-2011, 19:05
I was under the impression that the plastic molds had a higher upfront cost (which has already been completely recovered), and the molds last indefinitely, while also providing far cheaper materials for the models when they're done.

As opposed to metal models that the molds were limited, the resources more expensive, and the labor involved per model was higher?

There's no reason for plastics to cost more from what I've read in the past once you've taken care of the upfront costs for the technology and presses. Is this not the case?

And I'm with the OP. There's no reason for metal models in this day and age for a high-end retailer like GW. Perhaps if they were a small fledglign company with no fan base. But GW is the largest of their kind.

And the detail level on plastics is easily within the same line as metals today. And besides, the only models that the level of detail we're trying to justify making the models in metal still is only ever seen on the HQ options anyway. And I'm cool with metal HQ. Especially since the only metal HQ worth them making are the special characters as I'd bet most would convert a stock HQ from the troop box anyway.

Chapters Unwritten
21-03-2011, 19:14
I have no problems with metal when they are relegated to one-offs whose wargear doesn't do much changing, like special characters.

Metal everything else needs to go, especially squads full of expensive metal figures. If GW's metal models are supposedly easier to produce then why is a single sister of battle anywhere between 12 and 15 USD?

I say they make pain-in-the-neck metal models cheaper if they are troops. But fortunately this doesn't appear to be an issue as GW appear to be moving to a full plastic line for most stuff.

anewhope
21-03-2011, 19:18
Paint chips off metal figures too easy, which is ultra annoying if most of your army is a WIP.

unheilig
21-03-2011, 19:21
I hate working with metal, and love working with plastic.

I also enjoy my paintjobs not chipping off as easily.

We have also come to an age where the plastics look better than the metals.

That said, creating every character and obscure unit in plastic would be an expensive proposition for GW, unless they shifted to more "kits", i.e.e "Dark Eldar Character Kit" allowing you to make any of the characters in the codex out if it.

loveless
21-03-2011, 19:24
I don't mind either medium - but there's something delightful about the weight of a Carnivean in your hand. Oh wait, that's not a GW mini...uh...Hive Tyrant? That's similar :p

Plastics are great for troops and anything you need a ton of just to get some variation. I still prefer metals for characters and specialties.

TheConverter15
21-03-2011, 19:26
I don't mind either medium - but there's something delightful about the weight of a Carnivean in your hand. Oh wait, that's not a GW mini...uh...Hive Tyrant? That's similar :p

Plastics are great for troops and anything you need a ton of just to get some variation. I still prefer metals for characters and specialties.

Agreed theres something right about having a HQ thats heavie that the rest of your models.

Eldartank
21-03-2011, 20:08
There wasn't a big problem with GW making and selling the plastic Space Marine Commander. It is now possible to have an entire Space Marine army of all plastic. Perhaps they can make plastic kits of special characters, on sprues with options for various poses, and maybe a couple weapon options (I do know that some special characters have a couple options for weapons/wargear). I'm sure they can package/market an all-plastic special character similar to the way they did the Space Marine Commander.

theunwantedbeing
21-03-2011, 20:13
Plastic mini, metal base.

That'de be perfect.
Maybe metal rods for certain bits like banner poles as plastic things like that can be an issue with snapping.

ForgottenLore
21-03-2011, 20:28
I was under the impression that the plastic molds had a higher upfront cost (which has already been completely recovered), and the molds last indefinitely, while also providing far cheaper materials for the models when they're done.

As opposed to metal models that the molds were limited, the resources more expensive, and the labor involved per model was higher?

Is this not the case?


Not exactly.

Yes, the cost of the equipment to do plastic is a very high, one time up-front cost, but the cost of the molds needed to do a plastic sprue is also very high, and you need to do that for every new kit. Once you have the molds the cost per sprue is very, very low. Making plastic good for high volume kits.

And the molds won't last forever, they do wear out.

loveless
21-03-2011, 20:28
Maybe metal rods for certain bits like banner poles as plastic things like that can be an issue with snapping.

You'd want them to be something other than the usual white metal though, as it bends like no tomorrow.

Including brass rod for banner poles and such would be pretty cool.

jack da greenskin
21-03-2011, 20:31
Genuine question, can you sculpt characters in plastic and have them on one small sprue?

Bunnahabhain
21-03-2011, 20:39
Genuine question, can you sculpt characters in plastic and have them on one small sprue?

Depends on the sculpt you go with. If you have any undercuts at all, then the moulds must have slides-which are expensive relative to a standard mould-

You need a very good sculptor to come up with a design that looks good, includes options, and can be moulded in plastic. It can be done, but it is not easy.

Ville
21-03-2011, 20:49
Hmm, I don't know. I admire the old metal Guardsmen, and love my Ogryns: big hunks of metal! They can do some damage if they fall off some terrain, though...

Troops are handy to have in plastic, but the little old school player in me prefers metallics for HQ and Elites.

Tymell
21-03-2011, 20:52
Didn't we recently have this "Metal vs. plastic" discussion? :p

Even as someone who prefers plastic models and doesn't believe in the myth that plastics are still incapable of the same level of detail as metals, I don't mind them for characters or other 'rare' models. Multiple-option character kits are nice in some cases, in others not so useful.

What I do like (and hope we see more of) is the route taken with the Dark Eldar characters: metal models but compatible with the core troop plastics.

carlisimo
21-03-2011, 21:03
There's no reason for plastics to cost more from what I've read in the past once you've taken care of the upfront costs for the technology and presses. Is this not the case?

That's correct, but those upfront costs are tremendous compared to metal. They are hard to recoup for low-volume items. It's getting better though; GW's plastic technology advanced during the development of Lord of the Ring figures (I think their agreement required them to be plastic for some reason), and white metal raw materials (mostly tin, I think) have risen in cost faster than for plastic.

Sometimes I love plastic, but other times I get annoyed at how much work it takes to assemble 16 plastic Guardians (or other troops). You spend so much time shaving mold lines, carefully cutting little pieces... I usually enjoy the construction process but I don't always have the time or patience.

RunepriestRidcully
21-03-2011, 21:07
I prefer metel, there is just something about the weight, that and most of the recent plastic to metal jumps have resulted in models that are far worse then the metels (Deamonettes, horrors, pheonix guard, Grey knight Terminators, Space wolves (I think the old metal ones have a lot more charecter) chaos knights(whilt the new ones are nice, they look very different to warriors) and the LOTR Dwarfs (most of them have no detail/littlepoor detail) and GW's plastic prices are almost the sam as their plastic ones, sorry, If I am paying 20 for 10 models, I like the feel of metal, there is just something about it, plus they feel they are woth more themselves. Whilst plastic is easier to convert, the satisfaction of doing one with metal is nice.

Adra
21-03-2011, 21:27
Character models are fine for metal. Apart from that its a horrid material to work with when cleaning or converting. Also...its bloody heavy....and im lazy....so to hell with metal!!!! :P

Dvora
21-03-2011, 21:44
I hate working with Plastic and Metal. I prefer resin. On a side note, I hate my wallet too apparently :(

ForgottenLore
21-03-2011, 21:51
Didn't we recently have this "Metal vs. plastic" discussion?
Yes, yes we did.


What I do like (and hope we see more of) is the route taken with the Dark Eldar characters: metal models but compatible with the core troop plastics.

Yes, absolutely. If we have to have metal characters that is a wonderful middle ground.


Sometimes I love plastic, but other times I get annoyed at how much work it takes to assemble 16 plastic Guardians (or other troops). You spend so much time shaving mold lines, carefully cutting little pieces... I usually enjoy the construction process but I don't always have the time or patience.

I have to spend considerably more time cleaning up and assembling a blister of multi-part metal figs than a do a typical box of plastic troops. Mold lines, flash, bent pieces, drilling, pining, gap filling...

Assembling plastic figs is reasonably enjoyable, assembling metal is slow and tedious and ridiculously frustrating.

Hendarion
21-03-2011, 22:05
As someone who hates building metal figurines, are there those out there that think it is time that GW switches to a complete plastic line.

I personally would love GW getting rid of Metal and replace it with Plastic.
Check "GW general" discussion section.

But no, I love metal models and especially because they allow different details than plastic ones (undercut is the keyword here).

Ben
21-03-2011, 22:13
You can do more in terms of detail with metals still, and I can't see metals going away for low production run high detail models like special characters.

I like metal models, but I'm probably older than the average warseer poster so I'm a lot more used to working with metals.

Narf
21-03-2011, 22:58
send me your old metal stuff, seriously i much prefer the RT/2ed Space wolves, bloodangels and Dark angels, the only good thing atm is the newer plastic arms and bolters, they are better than the old plastic ones.

Seriously i like painting metal, i seem to get better finishes than i do with plastic, not sure why, maybe its the way the paint drys

dancingcricket
21-03-2011, 23:41
Yes, yes we did.



Yes, absolutely. If we have to have metal characters that is a wonderful middle ground.



I have to spend considerably more time cleaning up and assembling a blister of multi-part metal figs than a do a typical box of plastic troops. Mold lines, flash, bent pieces, drilling, pining, gap filling...

Assembling plastic figs is reasonably enjoyable, assembling metal is slow and tedious and ridiculously frustrating.

And with metal models there's also the fixing paint chips, reglueing anything that didn't get pinned (which is hard to do for some of the smaller bits), and the inevitable - Searching for pieces, and repair, of models that fell on the floor and went everywhere. So far, my plastic models haven't shattered and scattered.

crandall87
22-03-2011, 00:40
I can't see metal models going completely but I can see them one day only being special characters and HQ choices.

AlphariusOmegon20
22-03-2011, 01:42
Especially if you drop it on you little toe.

Seriously we have GW replace nearly all those Space Marine Dreadnoughts over to plastic but we have that Chaos one still in metal and looking very tired and old and needing a very sorely needed upgrade.

I am willing to come half way, i'll concede Characters to metal, but troops should be Plastic.

I would love to see Plague, Noise Marines and 1000 Sons be completely plastic.

I just want to cut off a part and be assured it will fit, but with Noise Marines i got sick and tried to having to twist and bend sonic blasters to fit.

LOL I get somewhat nostalgic when I think of the Chaos dread....

Until I remember it came out sometime around '97, which is when I STARTED playing 40K.

Then it just looks out of place next to all the plastic dreads we've gotten over the last few years.

Azazyll
22-03-2011, 01:52
They both have their functions. I for one just like the heft of metal.

easternheretic
22-03-2011, 01:52
I love the hefty feel of the weight of a metal mini:D. My ed 2 carnifexes are much smaller than the newer plastic kit, but weigh so much more.

However, I wouldn't mind a complete switch to plastics by GW for one main reason. Paint chipping. I hate using my metal minis and finding that the paint has chipped! :cries: And yes, I have coated them in a protective sealant.

Happens during transport to venue and back home. And the course of the normal game.:mad:

My plastics have yet to have paint chip off.

Cheers.

Tymell
22-03-2011, 01:53
LOL I get somewhat nostalgic when I think of the Chaos dread....

Until I remember it came out sometime around '97, which is when I STARTED playing 40K.

Then it just looks out of place next to all the plastic dreads we've gotten over the last few years.

August 1996 to be exact ;) So yeah, pretty damn overdue for an update :p

TimLeeson
22-03-2011, 02:03
I'd love more stuff turned to plastic as in general I dislike working with metal, but things I like tend to only be available in metal. I'd like things like Necron Wraiths for example to keep the look but move to plastic. On the other hand id be worried the replacements would be more like how the tzeentch horrors moved to plastic - I really did not like the design/visual style taken so I was still stuck with the metals.

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 02:16
Looking at the quality of plastc figures coming out from Tamiya especially their tank crews shows that you can get very good detail with plastic and they have been like that for decades, looking at that, it is not impossible to basically replace all metal figures, as mention cost may come into it, but the molds used in the metal side of things aren't that durable and need to be replaced constantly.

I mean if i had my way and put in charge of GW i would have a policy of total replacement within 3 years to have our product line a fully intergrated plastic line, this is my personal ideal situation.

But having said that my greatest achievement so far was build my Daemy P.

lordofevil
22-03-2011, 03:04
I personally would enjoy some decent new plastic HQ kits, but as long as they aren't too fiddly to assemble I enjoy metals due to the usual singularity of the model. For me they are usually an HQ or a very elite unit so I'm not painting 30-40 of them. I enjoy doing something that is going to be unique in my army and so I prefer painting them as they tend to be a bit more fun for me.

MikeyB
22-03-2011, 03:18
What si this "undercut" that everyone goes on about?

Oh and plastic. Everything but special characters. Generic Autarch/captain/whatever should be a plastic kit with all the trimmings.

MarcoSkoll
22-03-2011, 03:49
What is this "undercut" that everyone goes on about?
When you take a single cross section through a mould for plastic modes (usually machined from steel), every cross section further down from the "top" plane must be at least as wide as the last. Any cross section that cuts inside the profile of the last cross section is an undercut.
For a very simple example of how this is a problem, imagine a set of handcuffs - the wrist is narrower than the hand, so the hand can't be pulled through. Undercuts make it impossible to get the model out of the mould. You can make special moulds with extra slides moving outside the normal axis (akin to the way handcuffs open) to deal with this, but this is more expensive.

However, with metal models, the silicone moulds used are slightly flexible and can accept a degree of undercut (a bit like handcuffs made out of rubber). No really big undercuts, but you can have rivets and things in the same axis as the two halves of the mould and sort of get away with it.

And yes, that was a slightly daft explanation, but I'm a slightly daft person.

Pacific
22-03-2011, 04:02
Some plastics are getting close to metal details, but even in terms of pure details, it's not there yet. In terms of flexibility of poses (undercuts), metal is still much better.

Absolutely, they will continue to do new characters in metal just because there is that much more detail possible.

If it's only going to be 2 or 3 models per army in metal, I'm sure even the most ardent anti-metal hobbyist won't mind considering what the finished product will look like.

Spell_of_Destruction
22-03-2011, 04:19
Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I still love my metal minis.

I grew up with the game at a time when it was a lead miniature game. A plastic model just doesn't have the same 'feel' to it. It just feels like a flimsy (albeit pretty) piece of plastic. I've collected lead minis longer than I have played the game.

Not that I'm immune to the merits of plastic models. The advancement in the quality of plastic models is a major blessing for large multi part models and core troops choices.

However, I'm also lazy and hate putting plastic man size troops together. I find it an incredible chore even if the end result is worth it. I just want to cut a few mold lines, spray and start painting.

I'm happy with the mix of plastic and metal in the current Craftworld Eldar line. I think that Aspects should remain metal (although Shining Spears badly need all plastic kits...and some decent rules!).

So go and stick your anti metal agenda up your @rse! :D ;)

Ronin_eX
22-03-2011, 04:23
I think my big problem with this debate is that GW metals are actually really starting to lag behind other companies now and so people look at the busy, flash-heavy and chunky mono-pose GW metals and wonder what the big deal is about plastic not being able to get the same detail. So in that I agree with them, if we are talking GW plastic vs. GW metal minis then the difference in work and effort seems to make plastic a no-brainer outside of the cost recouping issues when it comes to low volume items like HQ choices.

But if we go to other manufacturers who actually use the metal medium to do more than just add a load of skulls, purity seals and spikes to things and we see something interesting. Take Corvus Belli or similar "boutique" minis producers (like Rackham was back in the day) and you see a variety of dynamic poses and fine details plastic (well plastic that isn't, say, resin) just can't do. And beyond that the amount of flash and mold-lines are minimal at best. With clever cutting and mold-design I can usually put together a metal mini much more quickly than I can a full plastic multi-part and it tends to look better in every way.

So I still think metal has merits but I just don't think GW is a good metric to measure the cutting edge on anymore. Some of the Dark Eldar stuff that wasn't in plastic was nifty but most GW minis are chunky and busy in such a way that they benefit more from being plastic than metal. GW metals just aren't anything to write home about and I'm afraid that seems to colour this debate more than it probably should since a lot of companies do metal minis superbly and really showcase what the medium can really do.

That all said plastic is still not even remotely cost effective for low volume productions like characters. Consider the design cost to even figure out a new sprue and then consider that these molds after pumping money into the design process cost another $50,000-60,000 or so and you can see why metal is here to stay for small run minis like characters. Until that problem is solved metal will remain the go to for character models even if GW's sculpting style favours plastic far more (because they can always add more doo-dads to the sprue so players can make their own skull and spike adorned mini).

FashaTheDog
22-03-2011, 04:26
I love metal figures and hate plastic. Look at the metal Marauders, Horrors, Catachans, and anyone else with bare shoulders and tell me you like the plastic ones. Yuck. I also am far more at ease slicing up metal and converting with plastic I tend to cut too hard. Resin is great to work with as it is far softer than plastic so gentle cuts are not too gentle and I can deal with that, but the middle ground of plastic feels wrong to me, plus it has the worst sculpt quality of the three.

ForgottenLore
22-03-2011, 04:34
Absolutely, they will continue to do new characters in metal just because there is that much more detail possible.

If it's only going to be 2 or 3 models per army in metal, I'm sure even the most ardent anti-metal hobbyist won't mind considering what the finished product will look like.

Except metal looks so much worse than plastic.

The last time this topic came up someone (Hendarion, I think) made a comment bout the difference between the metal and plastic Eldar line.

So I went and dug out some plastic Dire Avengers and several metal aspect warriors and compared. The metal figs were loaded with little bits that were so ill defined I couldn't tell what they were supposed to be, or where one component was supposed to end and another begin, while on the plastic DA I could clearly read text on one bit that was only a few millimeters tall (alright, it was in Eldarish, so I couldn't actually read it, but I could clearly make out the symbols.

Here is my original post

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5312980&postcount=24

from this thread

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293119&highlight=metal+plastic+banshee

chromedog
22-03-2011, 04:45
You'd want them to be something other than the usual white metal though, as it bends like no tomorrow.

Including brass rod for banner poles and such would be pretty cool.

Some Ancients miniatures manufacturers already do this.
I can get halberdiers and pikemen with brass rod shafts from several companies (and even with that, 10x 28mm metal minis comes in at half the price of a GW plastic box.)
The level of detail is comparable to GWs metal fantasy pieces, as well.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 08:16
The last time this topic came up someone (Hendarion, I think) made a comment bout the difference between the metal and plastic Eldar line.

So I went and dug out some plastic Dire Avengers and several metal aspect warriors and compared. The metal figs were loaded with little bits that were so ill defined I couldn't tell what they were supposed to be
And actually I never could agree with that answer of yours. :D
When I see messed up (to say it gently) missing undercuts at the asses and "robes" of plastic Avengers, I could puke.

However, arguing about a bad sculpt is not helpful for a discussion whether or not metal or plastic can produce better results - and the examples you gave were the result of having a badly sculpted (sorry, but swooping-hawk-helmets can't be called any different, they all are warped in the same way, so the master-model must be crap) one- or two-part-metal-mini compared to having a medium-sculpted 10-part-plastic-kit. Do the same amount of parts in metal and you'd be off better in the end - but do a two-part-plastic [AoBR-captain, *cough,cough*] and you get a crappy result. Honestly, I do not want to pay money for such a rubbish.
The answer to the "is metal or plastic better" still is clearly: "metal". And that for a simple reason:
You can do the same stuff in metal that you can do in plastic (if you'd want to). But you can't do the same stuff with plastic that you can do with metal, because of technical impossibility.

adeptusphotographicus
22-03-2011, 08:17
Going all plastic would be a tragedy.. The metal adds a excellent aspect to the range, plus with out metal we would suffer a lot less interesting models. Sure in many cases the plastic is possibly better, but that is not the point.. some poses are amazing and not possible in plastic.. plus some detail is better in metal.. and just for variety.

Perhaps you should go buy some files, a Xacto hobby knife and new blades.. and learn how to work with metal instead of just complain about it.

Abaraxas
22-03-2011, 08:24
No way!

I love metal.

Noooo!!! :eek:

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 09:15
Going all plastic would be a tragedy.. The metal adds a excellent aspect to the range, plus with out metal we would suffer a lot less interesting models. Sure in many cases the plastic is possibly better, but that is not the point.. some poses are amazing and not possible in plastic.. plus some detail is better in metal.. and just for variety.

Perhaps you should go buy some files, a Xacto hobby knife and new blades.. and learn how to work with metal instead of just complain about it.

Some poses not possible in plastic, name them.

With modern metal dies and injection methods anything that has, is or will ever be done in metal can be done in plastic.

I work realy well with metal, in fact i am very good with it, but i prefer Plastic over Metal.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 09:18
Some poses not possible in plastic, name them.
Having a banner weaving from the hips which still shows the armour behind the banner instead of having a solid blob of plastic there - it is called undercut and is not possible with the technique GW uses.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1241450_99060104124_Warlocktwohandwitchmain_873x6 27.jpg (you won't see the thumb and wraithbone behind his thumb if you'd try to make that in plastic with the 2-slide-only-technique GW uses - you won't even be able to put those gemstones on his shoulder-plates or helmet as they require undercuts too)
All kind of undercuts are not possible with plastic. Namely for example also the Shadow Spectre weapons or teeth in a monster-mouth. You can't make them stand out solely or you won't be able to remove the moulds after injecting the plastic.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/large/dansbt12.jpg (not either the rune on the head would be possible - you could create the entire model in full metal in exactly the same details - impossible with plastic)
The old demon prince's hands for example are also not possible in plastic.
Realistic fur and robes, only possible in metal and resin, except you want them overall flat 'n crap.
Yet another example for undercuts used at the wraithbone-armour on his chest which cannot be done with GW's plastic-moulds:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1241435_99060104121_Farseerspearmain_873x627.jpg

Khamul
22-03-2011, 09:26
NO MORE METAL!!!
Plastic can get, in my estimation, just as much detail as metal and:
*Is easy to convert AND THE PARTS WILL FIT...
*Costs far less
*Is much lighter (Although in some models weight is a good thing)
*Broken models can be re-glued and STAY glued
*Plastic don't bend.

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 09:28
Having a banner weaving from the hips which still shows the armour behind the banner instead of having a solid blob of plastic there - it is called undercut and is not possible with the technique GW uses.
All kind of undercuts are not possible with metal. Namely for example also the Shadow Spectre Weapons or plastic teeth in a monster-mouth. You can't make them stand out or you won't be able to remove the moulds after injecting the plastic.

Ok that explains what undercut means.

I have in front of me Fabius Bile and the Space Marine Commander AoBR i see more more undercutting with the plastic Space Marine Commander AoBR than the metal Fabius Bile.

I have converted three such Plastic Space Marine Commander AoBR and able to fill the undercuts with skulls and other rubbish, so in that comparison the Plastic model is far superior with undercutting and his Robe, Banner and Tabbard are consistant in free flowin style and the Robe is consistnat with comparble metal figures.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 09:35
The plastic AoBR Captain does not have *any* undercuts. None. You can twist him into a special angle where ALL lines will be parallel to your view. That is because the model was cast by using two slides only. I could show you various areas that are the result of that and which would look better by using metal.
I still think you don't know what an undercut really is and why it can not be created by using plastic. It is simply impossible to do, because the moulds for plastic-casts are not flexible.

Darklordsauron
22-03-2011, 09:42
metal is so much more fun to use, and games workshop sells them for around the same price as all the new plastic ones...

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 09:57
As an example for undercuts:
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/2424/ballf.png
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2572/ball2h.png
You cannot cast that in plastic by using the technique of GW. This is undercuts par excellence.
You can do it in resin and you can do it in metal, because both these materials use flexible rubber-moulds. But you can't cast it by using two half-moulds for plastic, because these moulds are made of solid metal and cannot be bent. Just try to cast something like that at home yourself by using a plastic/greenstuff/wood/glass mould and you will require dozens of parts or else you can't get the cast result out of the mould ever again. And that is why metal rocks and plastic doesn't. ;)

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 10:02
As an example for undercuts:
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/918/ballcq.png
You cannot cast that in plastic by using the technique of GW. This is undercuts par excellence.
You can do it in resin and you can do it in metal, because both these materials use flexible rubber-moulds. But you can't cast it by using two half-moulds for plastic, because these moulds are made of solid metal and cannot be bent. Just try to cast something like that at home yourself by using a plastic/greenstuff/wood/glass mould and you will require dozens of parts or else you can't get the cast result out of the mould ever again. And that is why metal rocks and plastic doesn't. ;)

Give that object to the Japanese and tell they couldn't do it in Polystyrene Plastic, they'd laugh and within a month they'd be pumping out millions of that object in kit form.

Darklordsauron
22-03-2011, 10:08
'eavy metal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 10:08
Yea, Japanese maybe by using lots and lots of slices. But GW uses two. Two. And you can't do that with two.
And as you said, you have to make a kit out of it. You can't make a kit for every possible pose and part of a mini. Especially not for fur or robes.

Darklordsauron
22-03-2011, 10:09
they should get more than 2 then

Khamul
22-03-2011, 10:10
Give that object to the Japanese and tell they couldn't do it in Polystyrene Plastic, they'd laugh and within a month they'd be pumping out millions of that object in kit form.

Give it to the Japanese then!!!

Darklordsauron
22-03-2011, 10:11
stupid khamul, you are dumb

Poseidal
22-03-2011, 10:53
Of the Japanese kits I've built, they have lots of fine pieces to get detail in; pipes will be individual parts that you put into place for instance.

Something like that usually isn't rugged enough for tabletop games thanks to the thickness of the plastic. (You can use them but I would be wary as they are more prone to break).

The level of detail is above the GW kits, but also has way more smaller parts.

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 11:01
Of the Japanese kits I've built, they have lots of fine pieces to get detail in; pipes will be individual parts that you put into place for instance.

Something like that usually isn't rugged enough for tabletop games thanks to the thickness of the plastic. (You can use them but I would be wary as they are more prone to break).

The level of detail is above the GW kits, but also has way more smaller parts.

Of course there would have to be a trade off, detail v ruggedness.

freddieyu
22-03-2011, 11:08
As someone who hates building metal figurines, are there those out there that think it is time that GW switches to a complete plastic line.

I personally would love GW getting rid of Metal and replace it with Plastic.

It will happen, although I do not think ALL the models will be in plastic...

However, I find metal infantry easier to paint..less holes and curves to push paint into....you do not find underarms a lot in metal minis....

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 11:13
It will happen, although I do not think ALL the models will be in plastic...

However, I find metal infantry easier to paint..less holes and curves to push paint into....you do not find underarms a lot in metal minis....

That's true.

Korraz
22-03-2011, 11:32
GW is horrible at doing Metals and FW isn't that good at doing Resin. I don't miss GW metals and they should do what they are good at: Plastics. Leave the metal to companies that are good at it and have games that don't need hundreds of the same guy.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 11:46
Korraz, not the game requires minis to play it, but the minis require a game to be played with. I guess you're watching the hobby from the wrong way ;) (from my point of view, it's the wrong one, don't take it personal)

In other words: I don't buy minis because I want to play with them. I buy minis because I love them and to be able to play with them is a really great addition, although this addition sometimes fails in terms of fairness/balance. However, a few great minis and poor rules is better than many poor minis and poor rules.

grazdak tankpuncha
22-03-2011, 11:56
i personally prefer plastic for the ease of modding and for the fact that my army is lighter for transport. however, i would like the metals considerably more if they were "chopped" into more components, rather than the frequent blob body/arm/head with one separate arm and such.

Korraz
22-03-2011, 13:13
I am totally with you there, Hendarion. However, I hate it when I have to field the same miniature over and over and over again, because there are only 3 versions and it's nigh impossible to repose them. Clonewars indeed.

freddieyu
22-03-2011, 13:16
Still..even with limited poses you do get "ooohhs" and "ahhhs" if your army is mostly metal (for example, when I bring out my sisters of battle, even unpainted)...so there is something like awe or reverence..hehehehe

although I fear it just tells the other players how old you really are....

Korraz
22-03-2011, 13:21
It might have something to do with my obsessions, neuroses or whatever, but I for one only see the same miniatures in an irritating pattern, over and over and over again.

Nezalhualixtlan
22-03-2011, 14:14
As someone who hates building metal figurines, are there those out there that think it is time that GW switches to a complete plastic line.

I personally would love GW getting rid of Metal and replace it with Plastic.

I much prefer plastic to metal figures, but I doubt you would see them switch over entirely. Metal models are more expensive than plastic models to produce and ship, but plastic model molds are so hugely expensive to produce compare to those for metal models that the only way to make it economically feasible to convert to plastic is if the models are going to sell successfully in bulk. This is why you tend to see lots of the single figures and HQ units people only ever buy 1 or a couple of per army in metal, and the models that sell bulk in plastic (or the super heavy stuff done in resin as metal gets too heavy for some of the really big stuff).

I love working with plastic over metal when modeling. But I wouldn't get your hopes up that it'll change entirely over to plastic.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 14:17
I am totally with you there, Hendarion. However, I hate it when I have to field the same miniature over and over and over again, because there are only 3 versions and it's nigh impossible to repose them. Clonewars indeed.
Of course I know what you mean. But I'd still prefer that over those plastic-things.

doubleT
22-03-2011, 14:30
I want everything in resin - and then I want to see you b!tch and moan about all the bends and broken pieces. :D

No, seriously, resin has an amazing grade of detail and conversions are really easy. But FW should be more carefull at the production. If they'd give it a little more time to cool down, they would have less bend parts and they could be more carefull with the moulds from time to time to avoid all the flesh. But sometimes I get complete squats where I cannot even make out the mould-lines on the minis! :yes:
And yeah, I know that they have another company do all the resin-work ...

Oh, and they should give more (weapon) options with their squads! At least more than one!! :mad:

Korraz
22-03-2011, 14:52
Resin can be very durable and robust. Done right, there are less recesses on a Resin miniature than on most well-done plastics.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 14:54
Oh yea. Cleaning a Warwalker takes triple the time of cleaning a Hornet. >_< And the Wasp-Resin-parts are way better than the plastic ones and took much less time to clean from mould-lines.

ForgottenLore
22-03-2011, 16:11
However, arguing about a bad sculpt is not helpful for a discussion whether or not metal or plastic can produce better results - and the examples you gave were the result of having a badly sculpted (sorry, but swooping-hawk-helmets can't be called any different, they all are warped in the same way, so the master-model must be crap)
one- or two-part-metal-mini compared to having a medium-sculpted 10-part-plastic-kit.

I'll grant that metal figs can have undercuts.

But still, the rest of your argument seems to boil down to "the masters for metal figs are badly sculpted", and I just don't buy that. I was referencing 4-5 metal figs in that post and finding significant issues with all of them. You can't seriously be saying that those are all due to bad sculpts.

The detail on new plastic figs is sharper and more clearly defined. I'll give you that they can't do undercuts but that is why they are multiple parts. Most of the time I don't even notice the lack of undercuts because GW is getting so much better at cheating their way around them.


Do the same amount of parts in metal and you'd be off better in the end -

No I'm not because I would never buy such a fig. (actually, maybe I would be better in the end, I would be saving money:))

Obviously, Hendarion, we are going to have to agree to disagree, but I like debating with you because you stay level headed, clearly articulate what you mean and provide evidence where needed, so thanks.

ModelCalamity
22-03-2011, 16:24
I have a feeling GW will do away with metals completely before the year is out.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 16:29
The detail on new plastic figs is sharper and more clearly defined.
You are obviously mixing up some things which are not related to each other.
Because, you know why the new plastics are sharper? Not because they are better casted. But because they had been pimped up digitally after sculpting in CAD, redefining areas with issues, flatten shapes and errors, fine-tuning them to the maximum by polygonal and volumetric models.
That is not the case with the metal figures you mentioned. Tune them up similarly (which will boost their costs ofc) and you get the same sharp result.

So yea, the reason for messy metals ARE messy sculpted master models which had not been digitally re-touched at all (or not to the same extent) after sculpting.

ForgottenLore
22-03-2011, 16:41
Doesn't matter how they got there. We are discussing the finished product.

Maybe it is possible to make the detail on metal figs as nice as it is on the plastic ones, I don't know.

What I do know is that they don't do that.

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 16:53
Maybe it is me but i ain't that pedantic about undercutting, for me as long as the model looks good, goes together easy enough and paints well that is all i care about.

carldooley
22-03-2011, 17:20
when I started my guard, it was a toss up as to whether I was going to go FW or metal models, as the prices for new models were comparable. I ultimately went metal, and haven't regretted it since.

I have a bargain for anyone out there - if you want to get rid of your metal kasrkins (which make up the majority of my infantry), I'll be more than happy to pay shipping. . .

doubleT
22-03-2011, 17:26
Maybe it is possible to make the detail on metal figs as nice as it is on the plastic ones, I don't know.

Maybe??

I have the following metal minis:
- Marneus Calgar + Crew & Tigurius
- Harry the Hammer
- White Dward carried on a shield by Gotrek & Bugman

And I have lots of plastic minis.

The metal minis surpass every plastic mini I've seen by far in terms of details. Only resin surpasses the metal minis.
The reason for this is that with plastic you cannot reproduce hard and fine edges.

Round Edges <--- Plastic ---------- Metal -- Resin ---> Sharp Edges

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 17:32
Doesn't matter how they got there. We are discussing the finished product.
No. You are comparing a metal-kit that is using way older technology to a plastic kit that uses the newest of the newest technology. Sorry, but that is still... wrong.
That is as if you are saying: "but plastic can have undercuts" - well, CAN. But GW would need to buy more machines. But they do not need to buy anything else if they would start computer-optimizing metal-sculpts.

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 17:52
No. You are comparing a metal-kit that is using way older technology to a plastic kit that uses the newest of the newest technology. Sorry, but that is still... wrong.
That is as if you are saying: "but plastic can have undercuts" - well, CAN. But GW would need to buy more machines. But they do not need to buy anything else if they would start computer-optimizing metal-sculpts.

If GW made the annoucement to convert to an all plastic range, would you walk away from the game.

ModelCalamity
22-03-2011, 17:56
Maybe??


The metal minis surpass every plastic mini I've seen by far in terms of details. Only resin surpasses the metal minis.
The reason for this is that with plastic you cannot reproduce hard and fine edges.

Round Edges <--- Plastic ---------- Metal -- Resin ---> Sharp Edges

This is just not true. Just look at the lates DE and GK models. The detail on the engravings are much better. And the sharpness of the DE salons exceeds the metals by a long shot. Also models like the arachnarok spider would not be possible in either resin or metal.

I do think metals is out of date and will not be used much longer. Mark my words

ForgottenLore
22-03-2011, 17:56
No. You are comparing a metal-kit that is using way older technology to a plastic kit that uses the newest of the newest technology.

No, I am comparing actual products. I got out actual, real, physical models, produced recently and compared them and then cited numerous instances where the "detail" on the metal ones was vastly inferior and so far no one has even tried to address that.

If GW were to change how the did metal figs and used the computer design cleaning process you brought up and that resulted in a dramatic improvement in how sharp and crisp the details on metal figs were, then I might change my mind about the quality of details in metal. But for right now, the quality of the details on the plastic models that they are actually producing, the crispness, the sharp, clearly defined edges, the tiny little bits that are still perfectly distinguishable are all clearly superior to the details on the metal figures that they are producing right now.

this argument has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the theoretical capabilities of the mediums, what japanese model makers could do with plastic undercuts or what GW COULD do with metal figs if they charged 3 times as much for them. this is a discussion about what they actually produce.



The metal minis surpass every plastic mini I've seen by far in terms of details. Only resin surpasses the metal minis.
The reason for this is that with plastic you cannot reproduce hard and fine edges.

Round Edges <--- Plastic ---------- Metal -- Resin ---> Sharp Edges

Don't know what miniatures your looking at there doubleT. A plastic sword or spear comes to a sharp enough point to actually be sharp. The edges of things on plastic figs are clearly defined and totally unambiguous, as opposed to metal figs where edges are all rounded and blur into each other.

I don't have any of the models you listed, I don't play WFB or Space Marines, but I will direct you again to the post I made in the last thread listing many examples of details on Eldar figs that were clearly defined on the plastic Dire Avengers but too vague and ill defined on the metal ones.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5312980&postcount=24


Round Edges <--- Metal -------------------- Plastic-- Resin ---> Sharp Edges

There, fixed that.

Poseidal
22-03-2011, 17:58
Not everyone who collects figures games with them.

ForgottenLore
22-03-2011, 18:02
Not everyone who collects figures games with them.

???

OK, thanks for sharing that with us.


edit after poseidal's post below: Ah, OK, got it now.

Poseidal
22-03-2011, 18:04
I was responding to Achaylus72 but got double ninjad.

ModelCalamity
22-03-2011, 18:05
This is true though :)

On topic I agree with FL remember that according to sharpness standards GW had to readjust the age limit of the plastic killa kans because they were too sharp!

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 18:14
This is just not true. Just look at the lates DE and GK models. The detail on the engravings are much better. And the sharpness of the DE salons exceeds the metals by a long shot. Also models like the arachnarok spider would not be possible in either resin or metal.

I do think metals is out of date and will not be used much longer. Mark my words

Could you imagine the Arachnarok in Metal, all that pinning, the tonnes of greenstuff and the weight, it would weigh at least 1 to 1.5 kilos. It would only be built by only the most experienced modelers and most likey out of the skill range of nearly every kid under 13 and would be in limited release and woefully expensive for that to come out in metal you would be looking at a minumum of 110.00GBP, or here in Australia at least $300.00

mdauben
22-03-2011, 18:15
As someone who hates building metal figurines, are there those out there that think it is time that GW switches to a complete plastic line.
I myself hate plastic figures and ony buy them because for many units they are the only choice. I much preferred the old school 1-2 part metal figures to the current multipart plastic kits. They involve a huge increase in prep time for no real advantage that I want or need. :mad:

Now, despite my feelings on the issue, its obvious that plastic is the wave of the future and eventually I would expect GW will be 100% metal free. :cries:


Could you imagine the Arachnarok in Metal, all that pinning, the tonnes of greenstuff
I've got several old metal Dragons from both GW and other makers of similar size that look great and where not all that hard to assemble.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 18:45
If GW made the annoucement to convert to an all plastic range, would you walk away from the game.
Depends on the details of the models. But if they all have the same quality like Eldar Guardians and Eldar Dire Avengers... yes. I would stop collecting. Although I am a collector and even have unreleased models 'n stuff, there are some models which are so ugly, that I will never buy them, despite the fact I won't complete my collection without them. Namely MKII Striking Scorpions and MKIII Banshees. I'm still not sure about Avengers and Guardians. Luckly I don't need more atm.


Also models like the arachnarok spider would not be possible in either resin or metal.
It would be possible. But it would be same impractical and heavy as full-metal Dreadnoughts or Avatars. But possible yes. Even without causing too much issues with pinning, as the pins/holes can be put directly into the moulds.


No, I am comparing actual products.
Actual products that got produced at a different time with different techiques. No need to argue, the plastic sprues had been digitally remastered, all your mentioned metal minis have not.


Not everyone who collects figures games with them.
QFT


Now, despite my feelings on the issue, its obvious that plastic is the wave of the future and eventually I would expect GW will be 100% metal free. :cries:
Unless they will find a way to produce plastic-sprues much cheaper, that won't happen. They need to sell 10.000 to 20.000 plastic boxes to gain back the costs to produce them. You need much less to get back the costs for metal minis. The moulds is the trouble - but that had been discussed to death already previously. Actually the entire topic had been, to be honest.
Actually I don't understand why so many want plastic. It looks like cheap toys and it feels like cheap toys (and it costs as much, despite the price at which GW charges them [and needs to because of the moulds... *cough*]).

Thirst
22-03-2011, 18:54
Metal figures are nice to work with - if you're having trouble working with them, you need to brush up your modelling skills. Learning how to pin things and greenstuff joins naturally are essential skills, whether you're working with plastic or metal (or resin).

So many times I see people's metal figures broken in half and hear them complaining that metal is rubbish - 2 minutes with a drill and a paper clip and you'll realise that you could have saved yourself hours of frustration and superglue.

Selecting the correct glue and the right tools for the job is also essential when working with metal - you can't just hack away at it with any old blade, you need the right sort - its no good trying to force a chef's knife through the waist of your model, you need a razor saw. The experience of badly gashing your finger or (worse still) damaging your 30 hive tyrant will mean you try to pay attention next time.

How many times do I see plastic kits stuck together with superglue? Superglue is for metal and resin, or possibly for those plastic kits that you know you might want to take apart again one day soon. Most people do not want to do this, and yet many still try to put that carnifex's arm on with a giant blob of superglue. Then when it comes off, they use another giant blob to repair it. And another, and another. The reason it keeps coming off is because you haven't cleaned the joining points, and haven't scored it. Not doing this on a metal figure means that arm will somply not stick in the first place. Also, you should have pinned it too.

Just a moment reading about these techniques and a little practise with some metal model and you'll never have another gripe about metal again. And you'll be a better modeller for it.

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 19:00
Metal figures are nice to work with - if you're having trouble working with them, you need to brush up your modelling skills. Learning how to pin things and greenstuff joins naturally are essential skills, whether you're working with plastic or metal (or resin).

So many times I see people's metal figures broken in half and hear them complaining that metal is rubbish - 2 minutes with a drill and a paper clip and you'll realise that you could have saved yourself hours of frustration and superglue.

Selecting the correct glue and the right tools for the job is also essential when working with metal - you can't just hack away at it with any old blade, you need the right sort - its no good trying to force a chef's knife through the waist of your model, you need a razor saw. The experience of badly gashing your finger or (worse still) damaging your 30 hive tyrant will mean you try to pay attention next time.

How many times do I see plastic kits stuck together with superglue? Superglue is for metal and resin, or possibly for those plastic kits that you know you might want to take apart again one day soon. Most people do not want to do this, and yet many still try to put that carnifex's arm on with a giant blob of superglue. Then when it comes off, they use another giant blob to repair it. And another, and another. The reason it keeps coming off is because you haven't cleaned the joining points, and haven't scored it. Not doing this on a metal figure means that arm will somply not stick in the first place. Also, you should have pinned it too.

Just a moment reading about these techniques and a little practise with some metal model and you'll never have another gripe about metal again. And you'll be a better modeller for it.

This is out of left field but has anyone used soldering methods on metal models.

ForgottenLore
22-03-2011, 19:08
Actual products that got produced at a different time with different techiques. No need to argue, the plastic sprues had been digitally remastered, all your mentioned metal minis have not.

I compared a scorpion exarch, a banshee and a swooping hawk to a plastic dire avenger.

I don't know about scorpion exarch but the banshees were released at the same time as the avenger kit (hawks might have been a simple repack, but I thought they were new as well)

So, no, I am not comparing figs that were produced at different times, unless they produced those metal figs and then sat on them for a couple years while they improved their plastic production capabilities (it is GW, so that isn't out of the realm of possibility).

Those figs, both the metals and the plastics, are 5 years old now. Are you saying that the current metal figs are that much beter than they were3-4 years ago? I stopped buying metal figs from GW about then so I don't think I have any really recent ones I can compare. Maybe when Eldar or Tau get redone we can revisit the subject?

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 19:12
At different times = not currently/years ago
And still, they used different techniques and not been remastered digitally. So... the thing that makes minis better is digital remastering, not plastic casting.

ForgottenLore
22-03-2011, 19:19
Learning how to pin things and greenstuff joins naturally are essential skills, whether you're working with plastic or metal (or resin).

Never once needed to pin a plastic or resin kit


So many times I see people's metal figures broken in half and hear them complaining that metal is rubbish - 2 minutes with a drill and a paper clip and you'll realise that you could have saved yourself hours of frustration and superglue.

20 minutes with a drill and paper clips, gashed fingers from the pin vise slipping off the uneven surface, and a metal model still won't fit or hold together as well as a plastic one will.


Selecting the correct glue and the right tools for the job is also essential when working with metal - its no good trying to force a chef's knife through the waist of your model, you need a razor saw.

Not doing this on a metal figure means that arm will somply not stick in the first place. Also, you should have pinned it too.


Have a razor saw. Know how to use my tools, clean the joins first, pieces still break off when a metal model gets knocked over on the table. Not an issue with plastic, never happens. Have never had a single plastic model come apart on me.


Just a moment reading about these techniques and a little practise with some metal model and you'll never have another gripe about metal again. And you'll be a better modeller for it.

As I have said, I do all those things and metal STILL SUCKS. Metal figs look worse than plastic, they are more fragile, harder to transport, harder to assemble, harder to convert and modify and on and on.


So... the thing that makes minis better is digital remastering, not plastic casting.
Which, according to you, they don't do with metal and do do with plastic.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 19:51
Which, according to you, they don't do with metal and do do with plastic.
Dunno if they do it now. Back then they didn't. GW just started using that stuff back then and if they would have used it, there won't be unsymmetrical helmets. But since they exist and all look the same - I'm obviously right.

MarcoSkoll
22-03-2011, 20:57
Also models like the arachnarok spider would not be possible in either resin or metal.
You'll have to justify that, I think.

How, when Forge World has successfully produced things like the Warhounds, Brass Scorpion and the Revenant, would they be unable to make the Arachnarok?


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5312980&postcount=24

Round Edges <--- Metal -------------------- Plastic-- Resin ---> Sharp Edges

There, fixed that.
No, not fixed at all.

So you've had a Dire Avenger alongside the Scorpion Exarch and said "Eh, well the detail on the SS is a bit vague, but the DA is crisp as an apple". You've either got the worst cast SS Exarch in the world, or you've not done the comparison properly.
I can take my own DAs and SSs, and every single detail on the DA is rounded, but the SSs... I could practically cut myself with the edges on those models.

Also, take note of the SS's "dreadlocks", the shuriken reloads and grenades on the hip - INSANE undercuts. If you were to try and do those models in plastic, you just couldn't. Not unless you made each in dozens of individual parts.

Next, you're comparing the Dire Avengers with the new Howling Banshees. And I think it was sacrilege to replace the old models with the new set. The new ones are rubbish in comparison to the old ones.
Compare the Dire Avengers to the previous set of Howling Banshees. Twice as old a release, and done without the benefits of "digital airbrushing", they leave the DA behind again.
The flaw with the new Banshees is in the master models, not the materials and casting. It's a strawman, a piece that would've sucked in any material.

I'll concede the Swooping Hawks, but those models are ancient now (they're still from the last release!), and if you've bought them recently, you've probably got them from an ageing mould. I can see the difference between the two sets I've bought over the years and the newer set are much less crisp.

~~~~~

What non-engineers probably don't understand is that plastic moulding HAS to be vague. The moulds are machined, but any machining bit has a minimum radius it can cut a corner at - a milling tool cannot cut an edge finer than its own - so no matter how perfectly you try, you can never get a razor edge, and there is a limit to the sharpness.

Also, heat shrink is a larger issue in plastic moulding than metal. Polystyrene has four times the coefficient of thermal expansion than does metal (I'm using figures for lead free solder, the closest equivalent I have figures on hand for), so it shrinks back more from all those only so sharp corners you have in your mould. (Whereas the slightly elastic metal moulds retract with the metal and help keep the edges sharp).

In terms of technology, it is currently impossible for plastic to meet the quality of metal, at least until we get a vast leap in technology. If a plastic model is better than a metal model for detail, then it was a travesty of an original sculpt.

Tymell
22-03-2011, 22:27
In terms of technology, it is currently impossible for plastic to meet the quality of metal, at least until we get a vast leap in technology. If a plastic model is better than a metal model for detail, then it was a travesty of an original sculpt.

The problem here is although this may be technically true, in practical everyday terms it's not so much so. There are plenty of plastic models that look every bit as detailed as comparable metal ones. Some sculpts are no doubt better than others, and you might find differences if you're really looking for them, but I've never been assembling/painting/using/generally admiring a (recent) plastic model and found myself thinking it's of lesser quality than metal models.

Whereas the advantages of plastics (lighter, easier to transport, easier conversion potential, less prone to damage) -are- things that come up in everyday situations without having to look for them.

I'm not suggesting metal models are no good or should be gotten rid of though.

Korraz
22-03-2011, 22:38
Again, this is true for GW metals and GW plastics. Because GW is really good at doing plastics and really lacking in the metal area.

Baneboss
22-03-2011, 22:49
OMG i hope GW wont do that. I absolutely love metal minis and i cant imagine otherwise. My entire IG range is made up of almost metal miniatures (and any plastic piece is either to be sold or used for conversion). Alright, metal might not be the best thing out there for gaming but there are still some of those hobbyists that enjoy collecting more than actual gaming.

decker_cky
23-03-2011, 01:01
There are plenty of plastic models that look every bit as detailed as comparable metal ones.

I think this is true in two cases: Huge models, and basic rank and file models.

Plastic characters in particular really don't cut it compared to metals, but many elites hold that distinction too. I think plastic swordmasters are some of the nicer plastics, but they don't compare to the metals they replaced, which had incredible poses that couldn't quite be replicated because they would have created undercuts.

There's only one plastic characters I've really liked, and that's the plague priest from the plague furnace, which gets around the undercuts problem by being cut into cross sections of his body. Even then, it doesn't compare to the detail of metals, and has a bit too much of the plastic 'smoothness' to it.

I agree on the hard edges thing too. Fur is a big thing I've noticed really doesn't work well in plastic compared to metal (which is why all the newest skaven are essentially hairless).

Obrimos
23-03-2011, 03:13
While I do relish the feel, coolness and weight of a good old block of tin, I'm all for plastic kits. Make everything plastic if possible!

It's easier to convert and safer to transport, less prone to being damaged when falling off the table, less prone to paint chipping and, in the long run, cheaper, when produced and sold in the right numbers.

Seriously, who wouldn't want a box of 10 plastic DE Incubi or Necron Immortals.

Space Marines are certainly the most attractive army to many players because you can practically get everything in plastic. Other armies should follow.

Generic heroes from plastic with lots of options for customization are a must, as well.
Customization rocks, be it units or characters! The new Grey Knights are a prime example for that. So many options, so many bitz and practically everything in plastic.

Only special IC's with a name of their own (like Calgar or Abbadon) should be cast in metal for reasons of nostalgia.

Azzy
23-03-2011, 03:53
I'll take all plastics, all day, every day, thank you very much. :)

As others have said, however, special characters and such won't go the plastic route any time soon. Maybe eventually, once all the other kits have been released, gone plastic and been upgraded to fit the current level of quality.

Perhaps, even, they'll include the parts to make a special characters in the kit that the character is variation upon (like Ghazy parts in a MegaArmored Warboss/Big Mek kit). This actually fits in with the rumor that the parts for a Swarmlord will be included in the upcoming plastic Hive Tyrant kit. It'd be a great way to kill two (or more, depending) birds with one stone.

-Loki-
23-03-2011, 04:03
This is out of left field but has anyone used soldering methods on metal models.

Solders melting point is about that of the white metal GW uses. Try soldering them and you'll just end up with a puddle of melted model.

ehlijen
23-03-2011, 04:21
Metal models are heavier. Sure, I'm a giant and don't mind carrying a box full of them, but some people aren't or do.
Metal is also harder to convert. Sure, decent modelling skills can overcome that, but why not make it easier for people if you can?

And last but not least: Chipping and scratching. Even primed, metal models will always be more susceptible to paint damage due to a combination of the metal bending to give way underneath the paint layer on impact and the model's higher mass adding more impact damage to any falls.

Metal models won't go away though. Plastic's just too expensive to replace it completely, especially the durable kind GW uses.

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 04:49
Well case in point, today about 10 minutes ago i accidently dropped my 1000 sons unit on carpet and every single drilled and pinned head came flying off and the Aspiring sorcerer lost his backpack and both arms.

If these delicate miniatures were plastic they would have held together.

-Loki-
23-03-2011, 05:12
Well case in point, today about 10 minutes ago i accidently dropped my 1000 sons unit on carpet and every single drilled and pinned head came flying off and the Aspiring sorcerer lost his backpack and both arms.

If these delicate miniatures were plastic they would have held together.

You did remember to glue the joints after pinning them, right?

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 05:19
You did remember to glue the joints after pinning them, right?

Cause i did.

-Loki-
23-03-2011, 05:23
That really shouldn't have happened. Were you using the worlds shortest pins?

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 05:34
That really shouldn't have happened. Were you using the worlds shortest pins?

Look i can't explain why they self decapitated themselves, maybe a bad batch of superglue, which i have had before but, this is not the point.

If they had been Plastic this would not have, i have dropped plastic figures on concrete and they have held together.

-Loki-
23-03-2011, 05:39
To be fair, there's a difference with how plastic glue and super glue works. However, if you get a bad batch of plastic glue (like any bought from a GW store), dropping them will cause breaks at the joints as well.

mulkers
23-03-2011, 06:21
Metal figs are where it is at, especially when they charge just as much for plastic.

Metal cave troll or plastic cave troll? Which one feels MORE like you spent $65 on a model?

Balrog?

Greater Demon?

etc

Croosader
23-03-2011, 06:26
I firmly agree with getting rid of metal. And it would save a lot of manufacturing money for GW. Plus it will be easier to customize figures that were once near impossible to do. And easier of player to assemble. Plastic glue is amazing if you are working with only plastic.

Heafstaag
23-03-2011, 07:09
I firmly agree with getting rid of metal. And it would save a lot of manufacturing money for GW. Plus it will be easier to customize figures that were once near impossible to do. And easier of player to assemble. Plastic glue is amazing if you are working with only plastic.

That is a downright lie. Plastic glue is absolutely worthless. It takes absolutely forever to dry! I spent hours putting together a box of bloodletters with plastic glue. I would have it done in oh, half the time with my regular brand of superglue.

Anyways.

I'm fine with metal miniatures, as they feel nicer, and bring back memories of the first miniatures I bought, which were all metal!

Hendarion
23-03-2011, 07:21
Seriously, who wouldn't want a box of 10 plastic DE Incubi or Necron Immortals.
Me.


Space Marines are certainly the most attractive army to many players because you can practically get everything in plastic. Other armies should follow.
So you think little Timmy stands in the GW-store and thinks: "Hmm, if I buy those awsome pimp-powered Spaiz Maweens, I can waste hours by removing plastic mold-lines, plastic-intakes, then assemble them and boy, do a hell of a conversion and yes, they nearly weight nothing. But it would suck to just buy metal models and be done with it."? You sure? I do honestly, in all seriousness not believe that little Timmy is really considering "plastic vs. metal", especially not if a plastic mini consists of like 6-12 pieces per model. And many armies actually do have huge parts of plastic minis already. Yea, most do look exactly like made of plastic, but I doubt that this "so much plastic" is a decision for anybody to play Space Marines. It is much more the Codex behind it, I can assure you.


Well case in point, today about 10 minutes ago i accidently dropped my 1000 sons unit on carpet
Why on earth would you do THAT? Now seriously, we all sometimes leap over some mini on the table. But I never ever dropped an army, because I treat them like raw eggs. (well, some ppl prefer piling up their plastic minis in a huge bunch in their suit-case, but God be my witness, I won't)


Metal figs are where it is at, especially when they charge just as much for plastic.

Metal cave troll or plastic cave troll? Which one feels MORE like you spent $65 on a model?
QFT - at least it should feel like having some value and not just a cheap toy.

-Loki-
23-03-2011, 07:24
That is a downright lie. Plastic glue is absolutely worthless. It takes absolutely forever to dry! I spent hours putting together a box of bloodletters with plastic glue. I would have it done in oh, half the time with my regular brand of superglue.

1 - Get better plastic glue. Revell plastic glue you hold for about 5 seconds, and it will hold its place itself while it dries. I did my Tyranids in no time with Revell plastic glue.

2 - With super glue, joints on both metal and plastic are very weak. Sure, it sticks fast, but it's a really brittle join. Which is why pinning is needed, which also takes far longer than just using a good plastic glue.

Heafstaag
23-03-2011, 07:26
1 - Get better plastic glue. Revell plastic glue you hold for about 5 seconds, and it will hold its place itself while it dries. I did my Tyranids in no time with Revell plastic glue.

2 - With super glue, joints on both metal and plastic are very weak. Sure, it sticks fast, but it's a really brittle join. Which is why pinning is needed, which also takes far longer than just using a good plastic glue.

That's why I just reglue if something breaks. Its not that much of a hassle, and I don't ever plan on wasting my time pinning or magnetizing anything. Superglue is where its at.

terradax
23-03-2011, 07:31
Im soo scared everytime I bring my captain Tycho to the battlefield! I spent a lot of time painting him, and I would hate if the model chipped. Plastic to the people!

Azzy
23-03-2011, 08:19
1 - Get better plastic glue. Revell plastic glue you hold for about 5 seconds, and it will hold its place itself while it dries. I did my Tyranids in no time with Revell plastic glue.

I've never used Revell's, but Testors glue is comparable. I've knocked out a couple mobs of boyz in fairly short order. Plastic cement is great--it fuses the plastic together, creating one hell of a bond.

It's also great for creating the appearance of "weld seams" for things like welded on armor bits or partially melted metal for damage from melta and plasma weapons. :)

MajorWesJanson
23-03-2011, 09:04
I use super glue for everything now, even my plastics. I actually find it useful to have semi-weak joints. If I drop or break something, or even intentionally want to pull a piece off a model, with superglue it will come apart at the seam and is far less likely to snap a piece where it is a lot harder to fix.

Hendarion
23-03-2011, 09:24
I currently do have a superglue which also cements plastic. I really mean it, the glue is stronger than the plastic itself, so IF I want to tear apart two glued parts of plastic, actually I have to destroy the model.

chromedog
23-03-2011, 10:26
The other reason I like my full metal soldier armies.

Nobody has managed to one-hand my army case and walk off with it.*
It's currently 7 trays (it's a Battlehive) full of metal GK, GKT, inquisitors, ISTs (kasrkin), servitors and dreadnoughts (3). You can't just swing by, reach out and grab and keep moving with it - unless you are built like a weightlifter - and then you'd have trouble walking in through the doorway.

*Unlike several friends who have lost cases of plastic minis this way.

Wraith Phoenix
23-03-2011, 10:46
I have heard that the long term plans Games Workshop has is to stop producing metal miniatures.

Please note: that is metal free, not all plastic

According to some I have talked to, the intent is to make as much plastic as is possible (units, vehicles and large models) while those that arn't viable in plastic (characters and special characters) would be done in resin.

Now please note again: this is rumoured long term plans, so not set in stone and liable to change, however there is one advantage, we get back all those characters on dragons in warhammer that GW won't do at the moment

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 11:46
Me.


So you think little Timmy stands in the GW-store and thinks: "Hmm, if I buy those awsome pimp-powered Spaiz Maweens, I can waste hours by removing plastic mold-lines, plastic-intakes, then assemble them and boy, do a hell of a conversion and yes, they nearly weight nothing. But it would suck to just buy metal models and be done with it."? You sure? I do honestly, in all seriousness not believe that little Timmy is really considering "plastic vs. metal", especially not if a plastic mini consists of like 6-12 pieces per model. And many armies actually do have huge parts of plastic minis already. Yea, most do look exactly like made of plastic, but I doubt that this "so much plastic" is a decision for anybody to play Space Marines. It is much more the Codex behind it, I can assure you.


Why on earth would you do THAT? Now seriously, we all sometimes leap over some mini on the table. But I never ever dropped an army, because I treat them like raw eggs. (well, some ppl prefer piling up their plastic minis in a huge bunch in their suit-case, but God be my witness, I won't)


QFT - at least it should feel like having some value and not just a cheap toy.

At 8 i built a 1/48 Scale B-17 and paid close attention to all openings and vents, not only that but gave it a fantastic paint job, i researched the local hobby shop on paint schemes inside and out, this was back in 1974 and the quality of plastic was fantastic, then. Plastic modeling has came along way in the last 37 years, and i can tell you, i have seen some remarkable conversion jobs by 8 year old kids at the local GW i have visted and some of the tournaments i have attended, by the time they reach 12 they are in many case better than 80% of adults

So i think you are selling kids a little short.

Oh and back then we used Enamel Paints diluted with mineral Turpentine, with brushes, no spray guns.

Hendarion
23-03-2011, 11:49
Well, ofc there are exceptions. But lets face it, 70% of the kids don't even paint their models. 90% of those who do, give it a horrible result. I even know kids that proxy everything. Orks counts as Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Dark Eldar or even undead in Space (:wtf:)... you know... avarage little Timmy.

doubleT
23-03-2011, 11:51
GW wouldn't touch Resin!
They'd have to get an awesome quality control or a great costumer service that shells out new kits as if it were candy when someone complains. FW has a lot of complaints, if I look at the threads about it, and they are very quick with sending compensatory kits for damaged ones.

What this could mean is, that the characters and special characters are more and more done and sold by FW.

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 11:55
I use Humbrol Precision Poly i can usually build and fully paint a complete Chaos Space Marines unit in one day.

With Superglue from GW i would drill and pin the joints, then superglue, wait 24hrs until fully cured and then apply a second fixing dab of superglue and allow to cure for a further 24hrs

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 12:02
Well, ofc there are exceptions. But lets face it, 70% of the kids don't even paint their models. 90% of those who do, give it a horrible result. I even know kids that proxy everything. Orks counts as Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Dark Eldar or even undead in Space (:wtf:)... you know... avarage little Timmy.

Where i used to go at GW Horsby they banned proxy figures, it got to a stage where i ended up making a point in one Apocalypse game a competitor used a milk carton on a toy car as a Chaos Tower of Skulls, and half his army was non-GW figures so i complained, and he was banned from playing. That is tough tits to that guy but if i ever go back to playing again and someone tries to play me with proxy figures they don't get on the table.

You do have the right to complain if some one tries to proxy games, no matter what their age is, either fork out the cash to get proper figures or play X-Box.

I don't care if kids paint their models or not, i don't care if they are good with their paint jobs, i aint that pedantic, we are in a GW store for gods sake, it is not like we are competing in National Titles

Aluinn
23-03-2011, 12:05
I now have a policy of doing all my armies in plastic, using simple conversions for the character models, for pretty much all the reasons that people have already said they favor plastic in this thread. So I'd be quite happy if GW actually could produce an official model for everything in plastic, but it's worth noting that, with most ranges (things like SoB obviously being exceptions), one can quite easily have an entirely plastic army.

I think it's nice to see the additional variety in models that you tend to end up with when people build armies in plastic. If you've ever seen a Space Marine army where someone really went nuts using varied bits from across the ranges to customize them, well, it's pretty cool, and I don't even like Space Marines all that much. If every range was like that, it'd be awesome, IMO.

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 12:07
GW wouldn't touch Resin!
They'd have to get an awesome quality control or a great costumer service that shells out new kits as if it were candy when someone complains. FW has a lot of complaints, if I look at the threads about it, and they are very quick with sending compensatory kits for damaged ones.

What this could mean is, that the characters and special characters are more and more done and sold by FW.

I have heard rumours that GW will take over from Forge World and will retire the brand, it will come under GW banner.

MarcoSkoll
23-03-2011, 12:13
If they had been Plastic this would not have
I've dropped my fair share of models over the years and never once have I had an entire squad ritually self-decapitate pinned joints.

Sorry, but I do have to draw the line of plausibility somewhere - and if a complete stranger on a forum suddenly has a rather extreme coincidence which happens to favour their current argument, I do need slightly more evidence than "It happened, trust me".

Poseidal
23-03-2011, 12:16
I've dropped plastic figures and they've fallen apart to, though not pinned.

Hendarion
23-03-2011, 12:18
I don't care if kids paint their models or not
You're missing the point...

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 12:39
I've dropped my fair share of models over the years and never once have I had an entire squad ritually self-decapitate pinned joints.

Sorry, but I do have to draw the line of plausibility somewhere - and if a complete stranger on a forum suddenly has a rather extreme coincidence which happens to favour their current argument, I do need slightly more evidence than "It happened, trust me".

Well i have to concede that obviously i did not do a good job, and that it was a poor build methods, and looking back had i done a better job those heads should not have come off. So blaming Metal was uncalled for.

TheWord
23-03-2011, 12:52
Interesting thread.

I don't quite understand why there is a sudden urgency to just get rid of metal figures all together. This seems a bit knee jerk to me.

I think Hendarion et al have made some good points. I have been gaming and modelling for over two decades now and have amassed a nice collection of minis.

This thread has inspired me to take a closer look at some of the models I have in my collection. I think a lot of peoples complaints actually come down to the sculpt and it's quality. In front of me now I have a limited edition Marine sergeant (storm bolter and power fist) and a jump pack chaplain. They are excellent sculpts, granted, and in my opinion there is an obvious difference to the quality of detail you get on a plastic model. Having said that I'm really happy with the plastic models I have. I think they look great and I have no desire to replace my assault squad with all metal models.

The advancements they have made in the time I have been playing have been, frankly enormous and that's excellent for the hobby. But a lot is to do with the sculpt. Lets face it Mephiston is a ***** ***** model, but Corbulo from the same sort of period is a great model I think.

Either way my armies contain lead, metal, plastic and resin. Combined they make for a really great collection of stuff. Wouldn't want that variety swept away.

cheers.

MajorWesJanson
23-03-2011, 12:54
GW wouldn't touch Resin!

cough cough

Ork Barricades (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440156a&prodId=prod1510000)

Urban Barricades (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440156a&prodId=prod1095505)

Warhammer Basing Kit (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470007a&prodId=prod240001a)

40K basing kit (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470007a&prodId=prod1140127)

doubleT
23-03-2011, 13:01
These are not highly detailed models with any parts that might be bend.

As I said before, they'd need the good customerservice that FW has - or a far better quality control.

vanvelzen
23-03-2011, 13:18
I only own AoBR at this point in time and i am having a blast paiting the plastic models. The metal models, especially the infantry ones seem alot more expensive to me, that is one of the reasons i won't be making a Witch hunter army anytime soon or Necrons for that matter (due to necron elite choices).

In the current product line the metal infantry models do look more detailed and seem to come in more flavours. I do think that in the long run we will see more and more plastic.

Azzy
23-03-2011, 13:29
I don't quite understand why there is a sudden urgency to just get rid of metal figures all together.

I don't think there's anything sudden about it. I know I've been saying this for years and have heard others of a like mind. If anything has changed, it's that the quality of the plastics that GW produces have greatly improved over the past few years.


As I said before, they'd need the good customerservice that FW has - or a far better quality control.

Thus far, my (rather minimal) experience with GW's customer service has been above and beyond all expectations. I can fault GW for a lot, but customer service when it comes to faulty product is not one of them. Of course, I don't know what experiences others have had, but there's mine for what it's worth.

I do agree, they'd need some better quality control than FW (not a knock against FW, but I've seen some undersized Rhino doors and such) as resin can suffer from a lot of problems in production and shipping.

Weazel
23-03-2011, 13:37
I have to admit that I have quite an aversion toward metal figures nowadays, since basically everything except HQ is plastic in my army (Space Wolves). I pretty much share the opinion of the plastic bandwagon. I.e. lighter models mean less breakage when dropped, no paint chipping, etc etc, but I do understand that some people might prefer metal so to each his/her own.

Anyway, as much as I appreciate the modeling and converting aspect of the hobby and all that, I would prefer if GW provided the currently missing models before they start converting existing ones to plastic. Helloooo Thunderwolves and Tervigons and whatnot, where are you?

Hendarion
23-03-2011, 13:43
Why the hell are all of you dropping models? For real now, I do not drop any models, I handle them with care!

DivineVisitor
23-03-2011, 13:47
Put a model together properly and it shouldn't break. Metal or Plastic. Obviously resin is a different kettle of fish but i have no problem with metal models. My pinning technique doesn't let me down. While i love the plastics i don't think its necessary to replace the entire line. Keeping the characters metal works for me, the rest however could do will being plastic.

ehlijen
23-03-2011, 14:05
Why the hell are all of you dropping models? For real now, I do not drop any models, I handle them with care!

Noone wants to drop them, but accidents happen (it's as true for 40k as for anything else). To think otherwise is swimming with the crocodiles.

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 14:14
Me i was born with the remarkable clumsy genes, i can trip over a footprint, don't ever take me into a china shop.

Hendarion
23-03-2011, 14:26
But if it is you who is not able to care for them properly, why exactly you want to change things for all gamers/collectors? I mean... I can't drive roller-blades without losing a few teeth. But I'm not asking to give them bigger rolls or carrying wheels. Just a sidenote ;)

Azzy
23-03-2011, 15:07
But if it is you who is not able to care for them properly, why exactly you want to change things for all gamers/collectors? I mean... I can't drive roller-blades without losing a few teeth. But I'm not asking to give them bigger rolls or carrying wheels. Just a sidenote ;)

Well, that's not nearly the only (or even the main) reason many of us want to go all-plastic. Even then, that's not really a fitting analogy. Considering that it's clear that GW intends to make as many of its models (as financially viable) in plastic, a more apt analogy would be: We are all traveling to, say, Fiji... Some of us just want to get there faster than at the leisurely rate we're currently traipsing along at. ;)

doubleT
23-03-2011, 15:59
That'd imply that everybody WANTS to travel to the plastic, err, Fiji.

TheWord
23-03-2011, 16:00
Why the hell are all of you dropping models? For real now, I do not drop any models, I handle them with care!

I thought that lol. I have dropped my phone, I have spilled glasses full of booze and I have even fallen over myself before. I have never come close to dropping my hundred odd squid FW resin greater daemon of Nurgle. I understand that accidents can happen though. Anyway.

I think that not only have plastics improved vastly over the years but that metal miniatures have as well. I find, and perhaps this is just a minority opinion that the metal takes the paint better. I know I have a mate who agrees with that.

The hobby as well as being a hell of a lot of fun to play has an extremely important textile and aesthetic nature. The weight, feel and look of a model are so important. I think we would be sacrificing a lot just so that people's bags are a little lighter.

Not every advancement in plastic negates the myriad qualities and nuances of a metal miniature.

So hurrah for plastic and hurrah for metal. Long may they both continue.

Hendarion
23-03-2011, 16:04
Amen
............

decker_cky
23-03-2011, 16:38
I use super glue for everything now, even my plastics. I actually find it useful to have semi-weak joints. If I drop or break something, or even intentionally want to pull a piece off a model, with superglue it will come apart at the seam and is far less likely to snap a piece where it is a lot harder to fix.


GW wouldn't touch Resin!
They'd have to get an awesome quality control or a great costumer service that shells out new kits as if it were candy when someone complains. FW has a lot of complaints, if I look at the threads about it, and they are very quick with sending compensatory kits for damaged ones.

What this could mean is, that the characters and special characters are more and more done and sold by FW.

Games Workshop is just as good with their customer service as Forgeworld is. Any problems with the product you receive and they replace it. My army case clip just broke after 2 years and I got that replaced at my local GW for an extreme example.

I don't think they'd make resin products as in Forgeworld resin, because the toxic dust wouldn't work with their target market. However, I did hear rumour that they may use a plastic/resin similar to what Mantic Games has started using. Functionally, you treat it the same way as plastics, only you need to use super glue rather than plastic glue.

Azzy
23-03-2011, 23:24
That'd imply that everybody WANTS to travel to the plastic, err, Fiji.

No, it doesn't imply anything about "wants". The plane (GW) is going to Fiji (plastic)--that's a reality that's not open to opinion. The only place "wants" come into this analogy is that some of you don't want to go to Fiji (however you're still on the flight to Fiji with the rest of us) and also that there are also those of us that want the plane to start cruising at supersonic speeds so we can get there faster. Still, the destination is already decided and it's not going to change.

Achaylus72
24-03-2011, 00:21
Here is another angle, if GW decided to go to a Metal Free product range, within ten years many players would have grown up with a metal free range.

Who here remebers the days before IPods when we had small portable cassette players, or the before that just small transistor radios.

Hell i remember the days of B&W television.

We do manage to evolve from one level of technology to another. And if GW does decide to go to a Metal Free product range well we will adapt.

Pacific
24-03-2011, 00:31
You can't really draw that kind of comparison though. If cassette players provided better sound and greater convenience than modern devices, people would still be using them.

It may be that in the future technology evolves so plastics can match the detail and modelling possibilities of metal. But, that hasn't happened yet and in the meantime I will quite happily suffer the little inconveniences of modelling a handful of models (in amongst the majority of plastic) it provides if I can have a fantastically detailed and posed model to lead my army.

TheWord
24-03-2011, 00:46
Regarding the matter of a universal move to plastic not being up for opinion. It definitely is up for opinion and debate. Those who make sweeping statements to the contrary are akin to a bull in a china shop.

As has already been stated HQ's aren't likely to change to plastic any time soon. Not only because of technological constraints but also in part due to the fact that they tend to have much lower volume sales than popular plastic squads. So if plastic can't quite match the quality of a metal model in terms of detail whilst at the same time being economically viable, then for the time being it aint going nowhere.

Regarding Ipods, again they are great and so were CD players before that and before that the cassette was marvellous. But people still buy record players. So where there is a market there invariably will be a seller.

So when you're on your Truman show holiday to Fiji, have a care for me. I will be chilling in the Bahamas with my little metal friends, Dante and Calgar.

Praise the lord.

-Loki-
24-03-2011, 01:39
As has already been stated HQ's aren't likely to change to plastic any time soon. Not only because of technological constraints but also in part due to the fact that they tend to have much lower volume sales than popular plastic squads. So if plastic can't quite match the quality of a metal model in terms of detail whilst at the same time being economically viable, then for the time being it aint going nowhere.

What makes you think that? HQ's indeed are going plastic. Look at the plastic Space marine captain, Chaos Daemon Prince, rumoured plastic Hive Tyrant, etc. Now look at the currect codexes pushing special characters over generic HQs. Those metal special characters will end up selling more than the plastic generic counterparts, and if it was financially viable to make said generic countarparts plastic, its going to be financially viable to make special characters in plastic if they start to outsell them.

Pacific
24-03-2011, 01:59
Regarding Ipods, again they are great and so were CD players before that and before that the cassette was marvellous. But people still buy record players. So where there is a market there invariably will be a seller.


Yes, because that's amongst 'audiophiles' there are many who think LPs give a warmer and smoother sound, that suits certain types of music. They find that CD/SA CD or derivatives are too 'clinical' and hard sounding. Also, people still have collections of their old LPs they want to play.

I think the market for the cassette was totally different - casual listening on the move, convenience was their selling point and for the same reason they ultimately were replaced. I've still got an old Walkman that was an expensive bit of kit for its time, but nowadays it is outperformed in every area by MP3 players costing $20. Note that it's possible to buy LP players cost many tens of thousands of $, but not cassette players - the former genuinely provides a 'quality' that other options do not have.

So, in relation to the topic of discussion here, the reason that GW will still use metal is because it is still advantageous to do so, either for the aforementioned cost or quality issues than cannot be matched. So I guess I am kind of agreeing with your point, if we say for the time being that metal miniatures are the 'LPs' of the wargaming hobby :)

Hendarion
24-03-2011, 07:04
What makes you think that? HQ's indeed are going plastic.
They aren't. Some things already have been pulled from the shops, being direct only sales, because they do not sell enough to justify the space they take in the shop.
A plastic kit needs 10.000 to 20.000 sales to get back the costs of creating it. I guess it will be even worse for special characters. Yea, there is that plastic Space Marine Captain - wait, omg, he's in the most sold box ever - the starter box! And for plastic he looks fine. However, for a character and HQ his model sucks - I mean he lacks undercuts at so many areas, I could puke. I won't buy that thing solely in a blister. Never.
That we see monsters in plastic is just a logical step. Metal monsters are what their name sais - metal monsters, abominations! But monsters have a totally different number of sales compares to ... lets say Baharrot or Abaddon.

And actually I don't see that plane towards Fiji flying yet. Or why else we got Incubbi and Beasts in metal and will get Wracks and Homunculi in metal? Simple reasons - number of sales and details of the casts aka so often mentioned undercuts. Even GW has quality standards and if they can't do something in plastic, they don't.

ModelCalamity
26-03-2011, 06:21
The other reason I like my full metal soldier armies.

Nobody has managed to one-hand my army case and walk off with it.*
It's currently 7 trays (it's a Battlehive) full of metal GK, GKT, inquisitors, ISTs (kasrkin), servitors and dreadnoughts (3). You can't just swing by, reach out and grab and keep moving with it - unless you are built like a weightlifter - and then you'd have trouble walking in through the doorway.

*Unlike several friends who have lost cases of plastic minis this way.

For me that's just a silly solution to the underlying problem that people can't keep their eyes on their stuff. For me the weight is more a bad aspect for the following reasons

1. I don't like to get worked up when I walk my miniatures through 30C degrees to get a game. If I need a one sided workout I'll get one weight and work out only my right biceps for that alone time behind some good porn ;)

2. I move across the globe almost once every year. Heavy stuff costs more to freight than light. If all my models would still be metal (yes been around for a few years and have had all metal armies) I would have to pay at least 1000 extra for shipping each year



Well, ofc there are exceptions. But lets face it, 70% of the kids don't even paint their models. 90% of those who do, give it a horrible result. I even know kids that proxy everything. Orks counts as Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Tyranids, Dark Eldar or even undead in Space (:wtf:)... you know... avarage little Timmy.

this is just absolute nonsense. The target group for GW stores is 12. With a little help any of these can be better painters and modellers than you and me. The thing is when I used to run a GW store what I found is that kids act the way they are treated. So if you treat them like little kids they act like it. If you treat them like adults they will act like them. I advice you to give this a try once. Might help with any kids of your own someday.

Achaylus72
26-03-2011, 06:34
I knew a kid (don't sk me his name i just don't remember) who at 12 could not paint for dandruff, by the time he had reached 14 won NSW Regional Golden Daemon for under 16's.

By the time he was 16 was "Eavy Metal" standard. And his medium of choise, Plastic.