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View Full Version : Anyone else feel vindicated by the new Grey Knight codex?



Tomalock
21-03-2011, 23:05
I know I sure do! Years of quirky Daemonhunter lists have found me well prepared for this latest addition. My ten Deathcultists, 8 metal Psycannon PAGKs, and custom built Inquisitor in Terminator armor w/ Daemonhammer and Psycannon all have been granted marked improvement in the latest edition and are actually viable! Not only that, but having a Callidus and Vindicare painted can be useful right off the bat. Finally, getting those Inquisitorial Rhino upgrades from Forge World a few years back gives me some sweet looking Grey Knight transports.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not complaining one bit! My only hint of sadness is that my Forge World Grey Knight Thunderhawk didn't make it into the final cut. To the Warp, foul Daemons!

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
21-03-2011, 23:09
To be fair, no one gets Thunderhawks in their codex. :p

ehlijen
22-03-2011, 02:50
Vindicated by the grey knights? But then don't even get vindicators :P

TheLaughingGod
22-03-2011, 03:14
Only in the sense that now, it would be stupid if my Warlocks weren't better than Justicars, my Farseers better than Librarians/Grandmasters, my Witchblades better than Nemesis weapons, my Psychic powers GODLY, my Avatar mighty and my Phoenix Lords unstoppable and peerless.

They keep raising the stakes, and now to make things make sense, Eldar are going to have to be incredible.

Gatsby
22-03-2011, 03:20
I have been an avid player of grey knights since the release of the deamonhunters codex, yet out of principal, I cannot, and will not, play them in their current form.

Hellebore
22-03-2011, 03:27
It certainly vindicated the predictions I made about the nose dive in background when the space marine codex came out. I said it was a bad precedent and even made jokes about each codex one upping the last so that Logan Grimnar killed THREE avatars in combat to make 'arder than Calgar. Instead Ward jumped the entire Chondrichthyes Class and had chaos slaying Draigo.

Vindicated indeed.

Hellebore

Seville
22-03-2011, 03:28
I have been an avid player of grey knights since the release of the deamonhunters codex, yet out of principal, I cannot, and will not, play them in their current form.

Awwwww. World's smallest violin, just for you.

Hellebore
22-03-2011, 03:31
Apparently you're only cool if standing by your principles means you like something. :rolleyes:


Hellebore

BrotherCaptainS
22-03-2011, 03:38
My only hint of sadness is that my Forge World Grey Knight Thunderhawk didn't make it into the final cut.


You have a thunderhawk?! Grey Knight at that! dude.. if I only had the money.. dang going back to school sucks... On the other hand... maybe if I had self contol and could keep under 10 land raiders... thats right 10 land raiders!!! lol I did ge a storm raven and it is already in grey knight colors ready to go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv67o3-7f8w what do you think? does it look good?

DeeKay
22-03-2011, 03:39
To be honest, nothing bothers me too much in terms of rules. Rad and psychotrope grenades seem a bit much but everything else seems almost reasonable. The fluff is as rubbish as I expected (yeah half the sisters we fought alongside have been corrupted, and the purest of the pure have decided to cover themselves in the blood of the pure sisters?) and that is one of the minor offenses. Honestly, with the way it reads it's almost as if the Grey Knights simply appease the Chaos Gods rather than fight them.

With regards,
Dan.

BrotherCaptainS
22-03-2011, 03:41
They keep raising the stakes, and now to make things make sense, Eldar are going to have to be incredible.

Or they can be the pansey little space elves that they are.. lol couldn't resist. Grey Knights are the bestest... My Knights may even get to play in tournaments again.

adeptusphotographicus
22-03-2011, 08:21
vindicated no.. just another codex for the rules layer power gamer, whats the point playing against crowd.

models are quite excellent tho. love the penitent engine model..have to really pisses someone off to get stuck piloting that beast I bet

Xabraxis
22-03-2011, 08:32
Its not a penitent engine. No, the guy piloting it is having a Grand Ol Time.

Wishing
22-03-2011, 08:36
They keep raising the stakes, and now to make things make sense, Eldar are going to have to be incredible.

Why? Is it an established fact that eldar are better than grey knights at everything psychic? Because that's not the impression I ever got from the background.

Also remember that it's not really about how powerful a model is, but more how cost-effective it is. You might get guardians that are stronger than grey knight troopers or whatever, but if they cost three times as many points as they should then you're not going to be happy.

Hendarion
22-03-2011, 08:48
Eldar are going to have to be incredible.
Theory and practice differ though ;)


Also remember that it's not really about how powerful a model is, but more how cost-effective it is. You might get guardians that are stronger than grey knight troopers or whatever, but if they cost three times as many points as they should then you're not going to be happy.
Right... Banshee 16 points, S3, T3, 4+, power weapon.
Grey Knight 20 points, S5 (with their psychic stuff), T4, 3+, power weapon, Storm Bolter.
How you dare exactly talking about point efficiency? :p
Especially when talking about Eldar ;)

Seville
22-03-2011, 08:48
Apparently you're only cool if standing by your principles means you like something. :rolleyes:


Hellebore

Whining about toy soldiers and taking them so seriously is lame. To be honest, I'm about to hit the ignore button on you solely by virtue of the fact that you have over 13,000 posts here. (Oh, and I also find most of your posts to be combative and "nerd-ragey")

In any case, I think the new GK are rad. I like them. Not sure I am sold on the Dread Knight model, but the rest looks cool. Should be a fun army. Can't wait to fight against them. Those of us who don't view toy soldiers as a matter of life and death think they will present unique and fun challenges on the battlefield.

Xabraxis
22-03-2011, 08:49
Why? Is it an established fact that eldar are better than grey knights at everything psychic? Because that's not the impression I ever got from the background.

Also remember that it's not really about how powerful a model is, but more how cost-effective it is. You might get guardians that are stronger than grey knight troopers or whatever, but if they cost three times as many points as they should then you're not going to be happy.

Which fluff. The fluff from the dex?
My understanding from the fluff is that A spacemarine, let alone a bog standard human, has the potential to be barely psychic enough to survive microseconds in the warp after death.
Meanwhile, the average eldar certainly does: Long enough to be a snack for Slaneesh.

Xabraxis
22-03-2011, 08:49
Whining about toy soldiers and taking them so seriously is lame. And, to be honest, I'm about to hit the ignore button on you solely by virtue of the fact that you have over 13,000 posts here. (Oh, and I also find most of your posts to be combative and "nerd-ragey")

troll less.

chromedog
22-03-2011, 08:58
I haven't cared about GWs fluff for the game since 2nd ed - it's all gone downhill since then. It was ALL better in my day, blah blah blah.

I'm just a little peeved that people who were telling me my GK sucked three months ago, and even sold me theirs because they "sucked so bad" are now turning somersaults and spending twice as much again on newer plastics because their codex is uber.

Xabraxis
22-03-2011, 09:04
I haven't cared about GWs fluff for the game since 2nd ed - it's all gone downhill since then. It was ALL better in my day, blah blah blah.

I'm just a little peeved that people who were telling me my GK sucked three months ago, and even sold me theirs because they "sucked so bad" are now turning somersaults and spending twice as much again on newer plastics because their codex is uber.

It's unfortunately the new dynamic of the game. ZOMG THERES CHEESE LETS GO!

I blame the pokemon/magic the gathering influences on today's gamers. That, and people unwilling to see the flaws in their corporate overlords.

chromedog
22-03-2011, 09:40
I blame Magic and pokemon and yu-gi-oh for all of the evils in the world.
Works for me.

Pokemon explains the rabid OCD collectorism, Magic the 'omg, must replace ALL my models with ALL of the new ones' at edition change, and Yu-gi-oh because, well, just because it's crap.

Xabraxis
22-03-2011, 09:42
I blame Magic and pokemon and yu-gi-oh for all of the evils in the world.
Works for me.

Pokemon explains the rabid OCD collectorism, Magic the 'omg, must replace ALL my models with ALL of the new ones' at edition change, and Yu-gi-oh because, well, just because it's crap.

Agreed, and whats said is that some of the spinoff games are just thinly veiled attempts at it. People can hype about privateer games all they want, but in the end they have the same ZOMG COMBO magic has.

DarkstarSabre
22-03-2011, 09:44
They keep raising the stakes, and now to make things make sense, Eldar are going to have to be incredible.

I'd be more concerned with how Chaos is going to turn out, especially if Ward gets his mitts on them.

This said, I'm not impressed with the power creep that's emerged where every single codex has tried to one-up the others. I feel really sorry for those of us with 'older' Codexes simply because we were victims of a 'new design strategy' which got very quickly panned in favour of Ward-mania.

Sigh.

Israfael
22-03-2011, 09:51
troll less.

Calling people trolls is as un-constructive as the supposed trolling. Report them to a moderator or ignore them.

On topic, it's nice to see some positivity regarding the Grey Knights. There's far too much gloom and doom on this forum.

Excessus
22-03-2011, 09:54
power creep or no power creep, I have had no troubles defeating blood angels with my Alpha Legion boys on several occations so far at least, haven't had the chance with SW yet though...

Shamana
22-03-2011, 10:11
Right... Banshee 16 points, S3, T3, 4+, power weapon.
Grey Knight 20 points, S5 (with their psychic stuff), T4, 3+, power weapon, Storm Bolter.
How you dare exactly talking about point efficiency? :p
Especially when talking about Eldar ;)

Well, there is more to them about that... but yes, I'd say GKs are more effective for their points. Grey knights should have one less attack due to not having a pistol or another CCW though, right?

Anyway, I'd be surprised if Ward gets to do the Eldar codex. I expect that Phil Kelly would get it, especially after he did the DE one and it was apparently received quite well.

jedideinos
22-03-2011, 10:22
Yes, in the sense that I can keep running my pure GK force. What does annoy me are the people who accuse you of bandwagon jumping, even though they can see (maybe they don't use thier eyes or brains) that the models predate the latest Codex.

HRM
22-03-2011, 10:54
Yes, in the sense that I can keep running my pure GK force. What does annoy me are the people who accuse you of bandwagon jumping, even though they can see (maybe they don't use thier eyes or brains) that the models predate the latest Codex.

*shrug* Some of us are new players, though, and wouldn't know the difference. 'Course, I also don't have enough experience to have real beef with Grey Knights.

freddieyu
22-03-2011, 11:04
Well, there is more to them about that... but yes, I'd say GKs are more effective for their points. Grey knights should have one less attack due to not having a pistol or another CCW though, right?

Anyway, I'd be surprised if Ward gets to do the Eldar codex. I expect that Phil Kelly would get it, especially after he did the DE one and it was apparently received quite well.


I hope he does it...I like the codexes Phil Kelly has done..especially the older nid dex....

And the codex wheel turns and turns....there are times you are down and times you are up...which means you should collect armies whose codexes are around 2 years apart so that you will always have one "in the current groove" so to speak....

For now, it's my IG...soon it may be the necrons/sisters...then down the line the eldar.....

Although despite all of these, the dreadknight and stormraven models beckon me to do something about them...

damn plastic crack...

AngelofSorrow
22-03-2011, 13:16
Whining about toy soldiers and taking them so seriously is lame. To be honest, I'm about to hit the ignore button on you solely by virtue of the fact that you have over 13,000 posts here. (Oh, and I also find most of your posts to be combative and "nerd-ragey")

Just because you are ashamed to love this hobby and take it seriously doesn't mean anyone else can't.
(yes I read you posts a while back about how ashamed you are and hide it from everyone.) I will never put the ignore button on you because I love to see misery when you post. Oh, and I find most of your posts sad and funny.

On topic: I love the new fluff and models and rules for this army even though I won't be using it. I do feel good that the knights now are fully fleshed out and not the half completed mess they were.


"Ready for eternal war!"

Wishing
22-03-2011, 15:06
Right... Banshee 16 points, S3, T3, 4+, power weapon.
Grey Knight 20 points, S5 (with their psychic stuff), T4, 3+, power weapon, Storm Bolter.
How you dare exactly talking about point efficiency? :p
Especially when talking about Eldar ;)


Well, I didn't actually mean to say that eldar are points efficient, although I can see how my post could have been read that way. What I meant was that when people ask for something to be made powerful, they usually mean as well as points-efficient. A warlock being better than a GK librarian isn't a good thing if they make him cost 400 points and thus unfieldable.

Cheeslord
22-03-2011, 15:16
Necron warrior ... 18 points ... its got a gun ...

Mark.

Earthbeard
22-03-2011, 16:30
Whining about toy soldiers and taking them so seriously is lame. To be honest, I'm about to hit the ignore button on you solely by virtue of the fact that you have over 13,000 posts here. (Oh, and I also find most of your posts to be combative and "nerd-ragey")

In any case, I think the new GK are rad. I like them. Not sure I am sold on the Dread Knight model, but the rest looks cool. Should be a fun army. Can't wait to fight against them. Those of us who don't view toy soldiers as a matter of life and death think they will present unique and fun challenges on the battlefield.

Says the man who hides his hobbies from co-workers etc.

Troll-less and have a happy day.

Excessus
22-03-2011, 16:32
Corruptable or incorruptable, the road to damnation is paved with good intentions I say...

You'll all come over to the 'correct' side sooner or later, hahahahahaha!!!

Kurgash
22-03-2011, 17:16
Have a bad codex, get made fun of and have your army mocked.

Get an update and suddenly become the best thing next to sliced bread, people jump behind your coattails playing the next power faction.

Business as usual in the warhammer world =/

Zweischneid
22-03-2011, 17:25
Have a bad codex, get made fun of and have your army mocked.

Get an update and suddenly become the best thing next to sliced bread, people jump behind your coattails playing the next power faction.

Business as usual in the warhammer world =/

And a whole fan-base of gronards whining every time people actually dare to like and buy any new stuff produced by the company that literally lifts the entire hobby.

The usual business sadly unique to the warhammer world.

RunepriestRidcully
22-03-2011, 17:56
I have been an avid player of grey knights since the release of the deamonhunters codex, yet out of principal, I cannot, and will not, play them in their current form.

glad I am not the only one who has taken this decision, as the new codex has seems to ahve lost the heart and soul of the grey knights with the fluff and same staline as a normal space marine, and the removal of inquisitorial stormtroopers and the restriction of non gk troops to being linked with special charecters has killed any idea of doing an Inquistor led inquisition non grey knight force, I have decided I will stick with the old one as well, perhaps we shuld form a support group....

Inach
22-03-2011, 18:19
Necron warrior ... 18 points ... its got a gun ...

Mark.
But that 1 gun is can immobilize even landraiders! Nerf plz :chrome:

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 18:48
I have avoided building a Space Marines Army like the plague, but i have decided to begin a Grey Knights Army

Easy E
22-03-2011, 18:55
I think this thing set the clock for 6th edition... written by Mat Ward.

:)

Honestly, I'm glad the OP is excited to play his favorite army.

Achaylus72
22-03-2011, 18:55
I would love to have that Dread Knight go up against a Mini Green Tide.

100 Grots with runtherders plus a Warboss and a Painboy giving all Grots Cybork Bodies.

The Dread Knight rolls all 1's and the Mini Green Tide all roll 6's = 150 tonnes of scrap metal and one dead Grey Knight

jsullivanlaw
22-03-2011, 19:47
I'd be more concerned with how Chaos is going to turn out, especially if Ward gets his mitts on them.

This said, I'm not impressed with the power creep that's emerged where every single codex has tried to one-up the others. I feel really sorry for those of us with 'older' Codexes simply because we were victims of a 'new design strategy' which got very quickly panned in favour of Ward-mania.

Sigh.

I really want Matt Ward to get his hands on Chaos. Chaos needs over the top fluff. Chaos needs some Avatar punching manley men rather than the sniviling whiners with daddy issues we got now. Chaos needs some uber powerful broken stuff, especially in the psychic department.

Achaylus72
23-03-2011, 00:35
I really want Matt Ward to get his hands on Chaos. Chaos needs over the top fluff. Chaos needs some Avatar punching manley men rather than the sniviling whiners with daddy issues we got now. Chaos needs some uber powerful broken stuff, especially in the psychic department.

Chaos needs to be as equal to Space Marines.

Xabraxis
23-03-2011, 06:09
Chaos needs to be as equal to Space Marines.

As fantastic as that sounds all I can see is me rolling my eyes as the 5.0 chaos marine codex marks the 1-codex period of "toning it all done again" before picking right back up with a new space marine codex with cannons that shoot gods.

Chapters Unwritten
23-03-2011, 06:14
In my area there is only one devout Daemonhunters player and he is actually very upset by the book. What makes this an oddity is that this is a very well respected and beloved player known all over the area by dozens of people (perhaps even hundreds). He is never upset about anything and is always a very cheerful fellow, so this is highly out of character.

He did not play a GK heavy list and he has quite an impressive retinue for his Inquisitor that was always his favored unit besides his stormtroopers. He has, as of this point, refused outright to use the codex at all. I am unsure of his reasons, though.

VoodooJanus
23-03-2011, 06:26
As fantastic as that sounds all I can see is me rolling my eyes as the 5.0 chaos marine codex marks the 1-codex period of "toning it all done again" before picking right back up with a new space marine codex with cannons that shoot gods.

Clarification: do you mean cannons that shoot at gods (killing them,) or literally cannons that shoot gods as projectiles? Honestly, I can see either being the case with the direction the fluff is going :p (And then Calgar shot the Avatar into the Bloodthirster's face.) That being said, Codex Dark Eldar was fantastic in the fluff department, so I'm not giving up all hope.

Anyways, I really do hope they tone down the ridiculousness. I'm all about some Space Marine butt kicking, but they need that xenophobic dark side with it, otherwise the power armor kind of falls flat. I'm not necessarily saying earlier was better (rose-tinted glasses and all...) but one of my favorite aspects of 40k was the unusually three dimensional factions and characters.

One of my closest friends plays Daemonhunters, and he's so sad about the new book (mostly the fluff therein.) I really hope they pull things together by the time the Tau Codex rolls around...

Xabraxis
23-03-2011, 07:34
In my area there is only one devout Daemonhunters player and he is actually very upset by the book. What makes this an oddity is that this is a very well respected and beloved player known all over the area by dozens of people (perhaps even hundreds). He is never upset about anything and is always a very cheerful fellow, so this is highly out of character.

He did not play a GK heavy list and he has quite an impressive retinue for his Inquisitor that was always his favored unit besides his stormtroopers. He has, as of this point, refused outright to use the codex at all. I am unsure of his reasons, though.

You know, as someone who wanted his aspiring champions to all be riding juggernauts, I feel for him. Nothing is worse than living with a codex that supports and provides models for specific lists that are allowed in a varied codex, yet only to get them removed in a new book.


Clarification: do you mean cannons that shoot at gods (killing them,) or literally cannons that shoot gods as projectiles? Honestly, I can see either being the case with the direction the fluff is going :p (And then Calgar shot the Avatar into the Bloodthirster's face.) That being said, Codex Dark Eldar was fantastic in the fluff department, so I'm not giving up all hope.

Anyways, I really do hope they tone down the ridiculousness. I'm all about some Space Marine butt kicking, but they need that xenophobic dark side with it, otherwise the power armor kind of falls flat. I'm not necessarily saying earlier was better (rose-tinted glasses and all...) but one of my favorite aspects of 40k was the unusually three dimensional factions and characters.

One of my closest friends plays Daemonhunters, and he's so sad about the new book (mostly the fluff therein.) I really hope they pull things together by the time the Tau Codex rolls around...

I mean Gods being used as ammo. They're pretty trivialized now how it is.

theJ
23-03-2011, 08:08
In my area there is only one devout Daemonhunters player and he is actually very upset by the book. What makes this an oddity is that this is a very well respected and beloved player known all over the area by dozens of people (perhaps even hundreds). He is never upset about anything and is always a very cheerful fellow, so this is highly out of character.

He did not play a GK heavy list and he has quite an impressive retinue for his Inquisitor that was always his favored unit besides his stormtroopers. He has, as of this point, refused outright to use the codex at all. I am unsure of his reasons, though.

Quite understandable.
In my experience, the "always cheerful" people tend to be those who play "for the fluff". If you play for the rules/teh winz you'll end up upset sooner or later (usually sooner :shifty:). You'll also (usually) play more than one army.

To such a player, the new codex must be a slap in the face (I know it is for me, and I don't even play 'em!), and then kicked when he's lying down by not allowing him to use his stormtroopers anymore (what was the point behind that change anyway?).

KarlPedder
23-03-2011, 10:04
Quite understandable.
To such a player, the new codex must be a slap in the face (I know it is for me, and I don't even play 'em!), and then kicked when he's lying down by not allowing him to use his stormtroopers anymore (what was the point behind that change anyway?).

Errr cause they didn't want an 'Elite' army having access to 85pt troops units as a stock option.....

theJ
23-03-2011, 10:26
Errr cause they didn't want an 'Elite' army having access to 85pt troops units as a stock option.....

Do try reading the entirety of a post before answering to it in the future will you?

Shamana
23-03-2011, 11:22
I really want Matt Ward to get his hands on Chaos. Chaos needs over the top fluff. Chaos needs some Avatar punching manley men rather than the sniviling whiners with daddy issues we got now. Chaos needs some uber powerful broken stuff, especially in the psychic department.

Hey, find your own punching bags - the Avatar's been done to death already. How many craftworlds and avatars have been downed since 5E? I'm surprised I haven't seen "sloppy seconds" avatar jokes by now. Go beat a swarmlord or something.

When it comes to psychic, I'd say Tzeentch-based daemons should be first, with Grey knights, eldar and 1K sons CSMs in that order though very close. Other CSMs might be a bit ahead of SMs on average, but it should be quite close.

KarlPedder
23-03-2011, 11:33
Do try reading the entirety of a post before answering to it in the future will you?

Wait what so Im not allowed to respond to a part of your post I have to respond to all of it or I must not have read all of it? Interesting....

Excessus
23-03-2011, 12:21
Wait what so Im not allowed to respond to a part of your post I have to respond to all of it or I must not have read all of it? Interesting....
No, I think he meant that you should read through the whole text so you can get the whole picture to the part that you actually responded to so that you don't respond to a bit taken out of context...

Either way I don't care and I'm gonna beat the crap out of some GKs when they roll my way...probably...

fidesratioque
23-03-2011, 12:29
Only in the sense that now, it would be stupid if my Warlocks weren't better than Justicars, my Farseers better than Librarians/Grandmasters, my Witchblades better than Nemesis weapons, my Psychic powers GODLY, my Avatar mighty and my Phoenix Lords unstoppable and peerless.

They keep raising the stakes, and now to make things make sense, Eldar are going to have to be incredible.

OR Eldar will just suck. Because they're xenos, and the Grey Knights are just soooo awesome. </whinge>

Asuron
23-03-2011, 12:50
Even with all my bitching towards the fluff, I'm still gonna get them
Just love my daemonhunters to much to abandon them=(
Even with a Chaos army still being built

KarlPedder
23-03-2011, 14:30
No, I think he meant that you should read through the whole text so you can get the whole picture to the part that you actually responded to so that you don't respond to a bit taken out of context...

How was it taken out of context all i see is a gross generalization that is pure speculation concerning the nature of fluff driven players vs rules driven players and that the new dex must be an insult to fluff driven players blahblah its not fair how the new edition of the codex doesn't suit me.

I have strange recollections of something similar from the 2nd>3rd Battle Sisters course that was in the opposite direction why oh why did they make us part of the Ordo Heriticus thats not what the Batttle Sisters are.....

Most of the old options in the DH codex can be represented using the GK codex yes Corteaz is the gateway to doing this, is this the first time or the last time GW will partially invalidate players existing armies with a new edition of a codex of course not.

LonelyPath
23-03-2011, 14:33
I truly despise the fluff in the new book, but will that stop me from fielding them? Not a chance! I quite like the rules and the army list, so I'll get the book (got it and a couple of other things on advance order), but the fluff is also a large pull for me in selecting a army. However, I'll just ignore the fluff nonsense and get on with gaming since I see it as "Ward Syndrome". I've played Grey Knights since Rogue Trader and not about to stop now.

Personally, I'm glad they got the power boost to make up for the last bunch of years where GK have been just about the weakest list in the game :P

Excessus
23-03-2011, 19:32
How was it taken out of context all i see is a gross generalization that is pure speculation concerning the nature of fluff driven players vs rules driven players and that the new dex must be an insult to fluff driven players blahblah its not fair how the new edition of the codex doesn't suit me.
Heck I don't care about that, I didn't read his original post, but from what he replied that is what I think HE meant ...

TheSanityAssassin
23-03-2011, 19:38
My four Warmachine armies make me feel incredibly vindicated by this codex.

Now if you'll all excuse me, I'mma go allocate some focus to something....

loveless
23-03-2011, 19:47
I truly despise the fluff in the new book, but will that stop me from fielding them? Not a chance! I quite like the rules and the army list, so I'll get the book (got it and a couple of other things on advance order), but the fluff is also a large pull for me in selecting a army. However, I'll just ignore the fluff nonsense and get on with gaming since I see it as "Ward Syndrome".

I just plan on rewriting the fluff to make it palatable. The fluff written by Ward was clearly included as false information to keep people guessing as to the true nature of the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights :p


My four Warmachine armies make me feel incredibly vindicated by this codex.

Now if you'll all excuse me, I'mma go allocate some focus to something....

This made me smile :D

Mr Zoat
23-03-2011, 20:13
Why not just cut the fluff pages out of Codex: Daemonhunters and stick them to the rules from Codex: Grey Knights?

I'm only buying for the Jokaero.

Lord Gabranth
23-03-2011, 20:29
Necron warrior ... 18 points ... its got a gun ...

Mark.

Im so stealing this as my sig rofl

whitemagikmarker
23-03-2011, 21:48
I truly despise the fluff in the new book, but will that stop me from fielding them? Not a chance! I quite like the rules and the army list, so I'll get the book (got it and a couple of other things on advance order), but the fluff is also a large pull for me in selecting a army. However, I'll just ignore the fluff nonsense and get on with gaming since I see it as "Ward Syndrome". I've played Grey Knights since Rogue Trader and not about to stop now.

Personally, I'm glad they got the power boost to make up for the last bunch of years where GK have been just about the weakest list in the game :P

Lonely Path has the right of it i feel, ward kills fluff but i have alot of rogue trader and 2nd edition material to go on plus for those who dont have access to those materials there is forums like this and lexicanum and i really do like the army list itself and the new additions especialy the dreadknight it looks cool

Draigo
23-03-2011, 22:14
There were fluff pages in the demonhunter codex? I must have missed this.

Hicks
23-03-2011, 22:21
I have been an avid player of grey knights since the release of the deamonhunters codex, yet out of principal, I cannot, and will not, play them in their current form.

Ditto, I sold mine out of pure disgust for the new dex.

Inquisitor_Eljer
23-03-2011, 23:25
Here's my assessment (like I'm anyone you'd all care for an opinion from right?):

Fluff - Take it or leave it? Leave it! (the rules seem pretty decent though)

Special Characters
Draigo - Yep, we're now cooler than UM & Calgar - Suck it UM!

Mordrak - Interesting concept - not too hip on the gestalt manifested ghost termies, but a good HQ & unit all in all

Stern - Okay update...still not going to see much table-time dude

Crowe - Crowedo Baggins rides again...tragic hero...really should have been given IC status or The Grand Strategy but I can see why they didn't

Coteaz - Unlocks the new freak-show...apes for everyone! Actually the best =][= in the book

Karamazov - Stolen from my WitchHunters who are now considering a Holy Crusade to get him back...oh wait, he was never fielded anyway...nevermind, GK can keep him...he should have been used to 'unlock' the Arcos as Henchmen

Valeria - A cool new entry for OX...nice gear...might work as a themed #2 HQ...should have been used to 'unlock' Jokearo as henchmen

HQ
Grandmaster - nice - The Grand Strategy seriously rocks...would have preferred 1+d3, but I'm greedy like that

Brother-Captain - not seeing the point of including him...25 pt difference...meh...should have been a Power Armor HQ and fewer points for a low cost GK HQ choice

Brotherhood Champion - I'd prefer if all BC made Purifiers a Troops choice, likely to see only limited play as a 2nd HQ

Librarian - the reason BC's above will only see limited play - this guy is #2 behind GKGM in my book

Inquisitors - decent low level entries for low point games

Elites
Techmarines - Nice but a touch expensive to see much real play time

Purifiers - Best 'new' addition in my perspective. I'd expect to see them running around quite a bit...veteran PAGKs...nice upgrades from the Troops version and a cool / effective squad power

Ven Dread - Thanks for finally letting us field them...too bad they compete in a crowded slot for space...should have made these guys the heavy choice and dropped the basic Dread in my opinion.

Paladins - Cool idea, poor execution. No Storm-Shields hurts them a bit...yes you can make a cool 'deathstar' with them, but I doubt their overall effectiveness. 2x5 Paladins, Draigo, Librarian, 2xStormraves, and 2x Ven. Dreads or Dreadknights might be fun as a one-time experience

Assassins - Decent updates all around in my assessment - Vindy is the real winner with unlimited ammo

=][= Henchmen Warband - The 'new' freak-show arrives in style. Lots of modelling and play-style customization options here...Jokearo are interesting...Mindlock on Servitors sucks...should only lock on 1's in my opinion

Troops
Termies - Good solid unit here. Depends on your play-style in my mind...

Strike Squad - No more 'True Grit' bums me out a bit, but I understand the 'why' behind it...all NFW are Force weapons...this rocks! Squad powers also nice.

Fast Attack
Stormraven - Happy we got it...probably won't field it...a touch expensive for my tastes...Mindstrike Missiles SUCK! Could I get a version with some real STR and AP please?

Interceptors - Nice re-branding of the basic Strike Squad as Jump-pack Infantry with a cool once a game 30" move...should keep opponents on their toes

Transports
Rhinos, Razors & Chimeras - Nice to have finally...would really have liked to see a psycannon turret option for the Razors...Forgeworld may come through for us on this front given they already have the upgrade kit for it...expect a rules update.

Heavy Support

Purgation Squad - Still 'meh' in my opinion...should have made them TDA instead of PA so they could move and shoot their Heavy Weapons...would have been a good differentiator in my mind...and hell, add the TDA Missle Launcher to them and it'd be a GREAT unit. Can shoot at units out of LoS but the receiving unit always gets a 4+ cover-save...ultimatley a 'neato' but slow-play effect...pass

Dreadnought - Rifleman & Psyfleman patterns coming your way assuming you pass on the Dreadknight...still no Psycannon, but again hopefully Forgeworld brings us what GW didn't

Dreadknight - Uhmmm...Interesting...love it, or hate it, it does bring something new to the GK...I may try these out once my wallet allows for a purchase of 2 or 3...I don't see running 1 solo, but the turn 1 scout-shunt, 12" jump-pack move, + assault range makes for an interesting option...will likely need some answers / FAQ since many folks disagree on NF-DCCW, the scout-shunt, etc.

Land Raiders - Nice as usual...still expensive but a little more surviveable with the Shaken/Stunned recovery power of Fortitude

Other / Misc. / Wargrear / etc.

Psybolt Ammo & Psyflame - nice! would have liked to see the +Rending on it though...also be nice if it still allowed Hurricane Bolters to fire as defensive weapons, etc. Good GK, Dread & Razorback upgrades...not great on the LRs or SR

Grenades - at least 1 for every job - cool and interesting, and most units get them now...finally

Servo-Skulls - These are cool...I wish the could move 'Slow & Purposeful', but these are nice if you take a Libby or Techmarine

Psycannon - Like the longer range for the heavy profile in the early rumors...bummer than got cut...even 30" would have been nicer...I'll deal

That's my over-view assessment...looking forward to the new dex, and thankful my GK finally got a decent update.

chaoticflanagan
23-03-2011, 23:45
Read the codex. 20pt models have force weapons? *throws Tyranids against the wall*

Hicks
23-03-2011, 23:56
Read the codex. 20pt models have force weapons? *throws Tyranids against the wall*

I certainely won't blame you for it.

DuskRaider
24-03-2011, 01:00
A point less than a Berserker... and 3 points less than a Plague Marine... #$%^ you, Matt Ward.

onnotangu
24-03-2011, 01:02
Theory and practice differ though ;)


Right... Banshee 16 points, S3, T3, 4+, power weapon.
Grey Knight 20 points, S5 (with their psychic stuff), T4, 3+, power weapon, Storm Bolter.
How you dare exactly talking about point efficiency? :p
Especially when talking about Eldar ;)


You forgot Banshee having fleet, fast transports, banshee masks, and Exarch super attacks.

Aluinn
24-03-2011, 01:43
You forgot Banshee having fleet, fast transports, banshee masks, and Exarch super attacks.

To be fair he also then could be blamed for forgetting that the GK have ATSKNF, The Aegis, force weapons, access to transports which they can assault out of (and one of which is also Fast), shooting weapon upgrades and close combat weapon upgrades--which are not free, but then, neither is an Exarch or a Wave Serpent.

Let's be honest: The points costs in C:GK are a bit lower in many areas of the list than comparable things in other armies. It's not just Eldar. Henchmen can be, in essence, Guardsmen with bolters and Ld8 for the same cost, and get more/cheaper special weapons in many cases.

Death Cult Assassins make an even better comparison to Banshees, and I won't even get started on that one.

Is the codex OP as a result? I'm not sure of that. I think the Craftworld Eldar codex, at this point, is pretty surely underpowered, so the argument that GK made out better doesn't necessarily suggest that GK are too good. It's much more disturbing to look at GK vs. Tyranids, because Tyranids have a fairly new book. I think GK are a lot like BA with added in "hoser" abilities that are especially strong against some armies. Make of that what you will.

As for being vindicated, no, I wasn't, because I actually had faith that Mat Ward would cease some of his more OTT shenanigans, in his writing of rules and fluff both, but, instead, he decided to take it to the next level.

LonelyPath
24-03-2011, 01:49
Read the codex. 20pt models have force weapons? *throws Tyranids against the wall*

Sadly, this is what happens when someone writing a codex actually has interest in it. Crudence was very open about not wanting to do Tyranids and feeling lumped wit ha army he had no interest in :(

@ whitemagikmarker - thanks, and some of that old fluff was amazing :)

Jack of Blades
24-03-2011, 02:18
Sadly, this is what happens when someone writing a codex actually has interest in it. Crudence was very open about not wanting to do Tyranids and feeling lumped wit ha army he had no interest in :(

I'm still wondering why they let him do it. It's not like GW doesn't have experience with writers churning out crappy books because they have no interest in the army, so really... :/

Aluinn
24-03-2011, 02:33
I'm still wondering why they let him do it. It's not like GW doesn't have experience with writers churning out crappy books because they have no interest in the army, so really... :/

I'm still wondering why they wouldn't fire him for being so blatantly unprofessional. Apparently it was news to him that sometimes, doing one's job is not fun, but that one still has some responsibility to do it well in such cases.

SockMonkey
24-03-2011, 02:37
Wow over react much? omgz0rz I wont play this army because the fuffz iz s0 lame!!11!!2. seriously yes the fluff is lame. in my WH40K Calgar hot boxed his armour and dreamed about falcon punching an Avatar. This whole new GK fluff on taking walkabouts in the Realm of Chaos marking all the trees in Nurgles forest and skull *********** khorne was some IQ Lords excuse for a drunken debauchery. "No really Highlord X, I saw it in a vision!! we can finally lower the threat level to "green" around the Cadian gate!! This Drogo feller from my vision has it all under control. Ya about the hooker in the trunk... musta been a chaos cultist trying to frame me and make sure this info gets burried"

The army rules.. well I remember when Genestealers first got rending and how freaking retarded that was... I dealt. So cowboy up and quit moaning.

Codex is tough, I think it should be after all we had to put up with, did they swing it too far in the other direction?? go back and read all the doom posts on EVERY codex released. ya ya ya.

Draigo
24-03-2011, 02:59
Too bad Dragio can't accomplish anything, because he's on the plane of existence he'd normally banish the immortal demons to.
You know, like how Nurgle's garden regrows almost instantly after he burns it down.

Read the actual fluff before you whine.

Jack of Blades
24-03-2011, 03:08
I'm still wondering why they wouldn't fire him for being so blatantly unprofessional. Apparently it was news to him that sometimes, doing one's job is not fun, but that one still has some responsibility to do it well in such cases.

I certainly see where you're coming from and if you don't consider human aspects such as motivation and interest to be important then yes, it's strange indeed. But that's not the case. Making someone do something out of coercion despite that some-guy having 0 motivation, interest etc. to do it is not something I see as ''professional'' but as stupid. Drudgery is something we should strive to eliminate. If he absolutely had to do that codex or GW would collapse without any option for another writer then yes, he's gonna have to suck it up. Do you think that was the case? I don't know.

You don't force a guy who very clearly does not want to get his hands on it to make that codex. And life not being fun and fair all of the time does not mean you have an excuse to perpetuate that observation about life, ie. it doesn't help to make it worse.

There, that's my little chanting. Over to you, Aluinn :p

Tomalock
24-03-2011, 03:24
I've played 3 games so far with three different lists and have lost each time. And I haven't had this much fun in 40k in years! There are so many neat units to try and combos to explore, after the previous codex I finally feel excited to play them against any army, instead of dreading fighting just about anyone.

I guess I just have a different mentality than those that are throwing up their hands in the air and being quitters. I see the lists on the forum that are already seeking to min/max and it doesn't bother me one bit. I already have the core of my army painted, whether it is the "best" build or not and I am having a blast seeing what works and what doesn't out of that. Like I said in my OP, I love the fact that my termie inquisitor lord with daemonhammer/psycannon is viable and his deathcultists work. Will it be the most optimal build? Maybe, maybe-not, but I have them and they are fun to play with! I pity the people that couldn't even give it a chance, as they seem fairly shallow as human beings. I wish they were having as much fun as I am; its a whole new world to explore and experience for us DH veterans!

Ronin_eX
24-03-2011, 04:36
As other posters have already said the only vindication I get is knowing that not throwing any more money into 40k was a good plan. As always I'll reserve further judgment until the next edition (should be on track for next year if they are keeping to the average life span of an edition) but I'm not holding out hope. Fluff is becoming more and more inconsistent and is starting to bugger even in-setting tropes. If this continues the last thing I liked about the game is going to go away. But hey, GW is nothing if not inconsistent in their application of design philosophies. This current one has gone on a while and the next few codices should be right on track for a "new direction". Maybe that will be good (but then the last two haven't been so not much hope in that).

And like another previous poster it makes me feel better about supporting other companies instead. Corvus Belli, Spartan Games, Privateer Press, MERCS and Catalyst can all give Ward, Jervis and Cruddace a big hug for funneling my money toward non-GW games with their near constant bollocking things up over the last edition and a half.

Aluinn
24-03-2011, 05:03
I certainly see where you're coming from and if you don't consider human aspects such as motivation and interest to be important then yes, it's strange indeed. But that's not the case. Making someone do something out of coercion despite that some-guy having 0 motivation, interest etc. to do it is not something I see as ''professional'' but as stupid. Drudgery is something we should strive to eliminate. If he absolutely had to do that codex or GW would collapse without any option for another writer then yes, he's gonna have to suck it up. Do you think that was the case? I don't know.

You don't force a guy who very clearly does not want to get his hands on it to make that codex. And life not being fun and fair all of the time does not mean you have an excuse to perpetuate that observation about life, ie. it doesn't help to make it worse.

There, that's my little chanting. Over to you, Aluinn :p

Is drudgery bad? Sure. It would be wonderful to live in a world where everyone could do something that they truly enjoy doing and get paid for the privelege. Unfortunately, I genuinely believe that is impossible, at least in any conceivable, near-future world, and certainly in the present.

I would wager that every working individual on this board, unless self-employed, and probably even then, has days, weeks, heck, months when they do not feel like doing the stuff that they have to do. And I would also wager that none of those people feels this is an excuse to do a shoddy job, phone it in, or however you like to put it. Robin Cruddace is not writing codexes for fun. He is writing codexes because it is his job to write codexes. If he wasn't paid to do so, and I wasn't charged for the product, I'd have utterly no grounds to complain. But, in that case, he wouldn't be writing Codex: Tyranids at all, apparently.

Now you can't force a person to enjoy doing something, and the fact that he had little interest in writing the thing is a perfectly good explanation for why it might not be a wonderful product. I'm not sure there was any way to change that except for, as you suggest, getting someone else to write it, and I also agree that whatever management folks gave him the project and wouldn't take "no" for an answer share some of the blame. Yet, an explanation is not an excuse, and to say that Cruddace shares none of the blame because he didn't enjoy writing it makes no sense. Doing his job well means producing good work, and if he does not produce good work, he is not doing his job well.

I've often been very critical of the overuse of that old "life is not fair" platitude, and I agree with you generally. I'm just not sure that point really applies to this question, which, to me, is, quite simply: Did Robin Cruddace write a good codex? If the answer is no, then getting rid of him and getting someone who can write good codexes for armies that may not be their absolute favorites is a legitimate option, IMO.

Because, you know, if I was blessed with the opportunity to write rules for a game that I really enjoyed playing for a living, I don't really think that I would be well-suited for the job if I couldn't write rules for aspects of the game that were not my personal favorites. Can you imagine? "I don't like assault based armies, so I'm not really going to concern myself overly much with producing close combat rules that make any sense."

I can put myself in his predicament because I like writing rules and I do not really like Tyranids, and, honestly, I think I would be sufficiently interested in writing a book for them, none the less, because the game in general and the rules in general are, on their own, interesting to me. I don't think anyone has much of any business writing rules for the game if that is not true of them, as well. This whole excuse for Cruddace makes him come across as a random gamer who happens to be able to write rules, which is not at all the same as being a professional rules developer, I'm sure.

Jack of Blades
24-03-2011, 05:06
We're on the same line here, I pretty much agree with you... and that's about it really :)

Aluinn
24-03-2011, 05:16
We're on the same line here, I pretty much agree with you... and that's about it really :)

Well that was surprisingly easy. I was hoping for a flame war, and you've greatly disappointed me, sir.

I guess now the thread will have to get back on-topic, or something :).

Azzy
24-03-2011, 05:29
I just plan on rewriting the fluff to make it palatable. The fluff written by Ward was clearly included as false information to keep people guessing as to the true nature of the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights :p

Same. Sadly, Ward has proven me wrong and it's not that he's a bad writer (in a technical sense), but some of the fluff he made up for the GK dex is just... awful.


I'm still wondering why they let him do it. It's not like GW doesn't have experience with writers churning out crappy books because they have no interest in the army, so really... :/

I just don't understand why he couldn't find interest in them. Personally, I've no interest in CSM, but were I tasked to write their codex I would go through all the previous material from RT up to today and try to make them as fluffy, versatile and balanced as possible while trying to give options for players of each Legion as well as those of Renegades. In addition, I'd try to get opinions from members of the design team who are CSM fans. Even though I'm no fan of the Chaos Smurfs, doing a bad job on their codex is not only letting CSM players down, it's also letting down part of my hobby... and why would you do that?

RecklessFable
24-03-2011, 05:33
Its not a penitent engine. No, the guy piloting it is having a Grand Ol Time.

Sadly, the penitent engine is a much better looking model.


To be fair, no one gets Thunderhawks in their codex. :p

Counts as Storm Raven! Supasized!

Souleater
24-03-2011, 09:51
I get the impression Robin hated doing the Nids. He nerfed our shooting in several key areas. Failed to implement changes that Nid fans have been begging for since 3rd Editon. Introduced us to Lord, Swarm Lord...ace troubleshooter.

If he had simply been neutral it would have been bad enough but a lot of the stuff...I don't know either the guy just didn't understand how Nids work or he was sticking the knife in. The studio needs to work on dexes more as a group.

On topic:I don't think that making a codex overpowered because the previous one was underpowered is ever justified.

DarkstarSabre
24-03-2011, 09:59
Read the codex. 20pt models have force weapons? *throws Tyranids against the wall*

Comedy value for Tyranid players. Anything with the word Nemesis is apparantly a Force Weapon.

Ward's Blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood naming habit in the BA codex was a precursor to silliness.

Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts have Nemesis Doom Fists.
Unlike the Blood Fist, which is just a Dreadnought CCW with a silly name....

These are ALSO force weapons.

So, let's take the response to Carnifexes.

'Oh, Carnifexes will murder Dreadnoughts/Dreadknights etc.'

You have a higher Initiative then the carnifex. You need a 2 to wound it. Then you need to pass a Ld 9 test to instant kill the damn thing.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF--

Draigo
24-03-2011, 11:00
Cruddace 'hating' tyranids is wrong.
The book was hastily rewritten, and it shows. Much like how codex: ultramarines by Ward got 200 other chapters added to it, and renamed codex: space marines. The difference is, Ward's been with GW for many years, so knew how to get it done, while Cruddace was fairly new.
The book's not bad, all things considered, but it really looks and feels rushed.

But yeah, grey knights kinda killed tyranids very hard, sad to say. My 36 warriors are probably not getting off the shelf again in 5th edition.

mughi3
24-03-2011, 11:52
After a good look through the GK codex i feel that i don't want to hear a single bitch about "overpowered/not properly play tested" for anything produced from forge world when codex creep does this to units in a normal codex that make FW units seem pretty average, or in some cases neccisary(especialy for tau) for some armies to function.

Zweischneid
24-03-2011, 12:15
After a good look through the GK codex i feel that i don't want to hear a single bitch about "overpowered/not properly play tested" for anything produced from forge world when codex creep does this to units in a normal codex that make FW units seem pretty average, or in some cases neccisary(especialy for tau) for some armies to function.

The problem with FW is not that they are "overpowered/not properly play tested".

The problem with FW is that many of FW's more vocal proponents persistently refuse to acknowledge that FW-stuff is clearly labeled as expansion (in the category of Spearhead, Cities of Death, etc..) and aggressively try to push the agenda that "regular", non-expansion 40K-games should include them more frequently.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/IA8cover.jpg

Nocculum
24-03-2011, 12:33
There are Genestealers, Ymgarl, Garogyles, Homragaunt mobs and lots of other non monstrous things in the Tyranid book...

20 point models with expensive force weapons can't insta kill 1 wound models...

Draigo
24-03-2011, 12:39
No, but they get halberds that make them strike at initiative 6, and powers that inflict a wound on every model in the enemy unit on a d6 roll of 4+.

mughi3
24-03-2011, 13:59
The problem with FW is not that they are "overpowered/not properly play tested".

The problem with FW is that many of FW's more vocal proponents persistently refuse to acknowledge that FW-stuff is clearly labeled as expansion (in the category of Spearhead, Cities of Death, etc..) and aggressively try to push the agenda that "regular", non-expansion 40K-games should include them more frequently.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/IA8cover.jpg

And the most common reason for refusal to use them in normal games more freqently is that they are somehow improper because they are over powered, not properly play tested or not good to use because they are not in a "normal" codex and it is somehow dirty to use them. also long before the release of IA 8 the word expansion never exhisted. my IAI and II are simply FW products made for normal games of 40K. i still stand by the pre-face in IA II as the most reasonable approach to using FW in "normal" games.

I normally never use the "broken" scronym to describe a new codex however this book kills the effectiveness of monterous creatures, multi-wound units and spanks nearly every unit in the game CC wise on initiative save, a handful of special characters and a couple rare units(banshees go at I10 but only in the first round of CC for example). in addition to taking generalist marines and making them the best close combat force in the game. It is the hands down most versatile list in gear, grenades, useful psyker powers, and troop choice options when literally nearly everything can be a troops choice or at least a scoring unit.

Don't take that the wrong way, i do love GKs both in fluff and trhe beautiful minis, and i have used them as allies for years. however when 75% of the armies i see at a GT are already marines the GK book is a wet dream for the power gamers. in discussion at my LGS some players have already started refusing to play games against them before they have even hit the store shelves.


It's sad that GW has made 40K so easy to meta-game and mathhammer that it has taken a real fun aspect out of the game(i miss fluff based rules like those still found in BFG) and drawn in alot of WAAC players. I am not saying GKs are super unbeatable, but the simplicity of the system and the simple mathhammer tells us that they are now the best units in the game save the odd dice rolls. none of the other games i play(infinty, classic battletech, victroy at sea etc...) release anything that makes me sit there and consider my army hamstrung because the newest army book writer jumped the shark or the newer releases overpower the old.

loveless
24-03-2011, 14:48
Ward's Blood blood blood blood blood blood blood blood naming habit in the BA codex was a precursor to silliness.

Dreadknights and Dreadnoughts have Nemesis Doom Fists.
Unlike the Blood Fist, which is just a Dreadnought CCW with a silly name....

These are ALSO force weapons.


Ward's naming (hell...GW's naming in some cases...) often feels rushed.

"Nemesis" has been the label for Grey Knight weapons for a while. Ward expanded the types available (or brought back old types, I'm not entirely sure) and tried to pull in the walkers/monstrous creatures.

"Doom" Fist is the odd bit...why "Doom"? Or maybe a special "Nemesis Weapon" rule applied to a model/unit to cut down on the repeat of the word so often. In which case, you could just leave DCCW on the Dreads.

As for Blood Fist, it's just awkward. The only difference is that it states it provides an extra attack with a Force Weapon, which I believe it wouldn't have had it just been a DCCW. However, they should have just made a "Dreadnought Force Weapon" - a Force Weapon that can receive an extra attack from a DCCW.

blackjack
24-03-2011, 15:29
Right... Banshee 16 points, S3, T3, 4+, power weapon.
Grey Knight 20 points, S5 (with their psychic stuff), T4, 3+, power weapon, Storm Bolter.
How you dare exactly talking about point efficiency?
Especially when talking about Eldar


Well it must seem unfair when you deliberatly ignore half the rules for banshees. Like Init 10, fleet and the fact they get 2 attacks (storm bolters do not count as a CC weapon).

Raverrn
24-03-2011, 15:40
For the record my 4-year-old fandex totally had 2 wound FNP termies and rending Psycannons.

loveless
24-03-2011, 15:55
For the record my 4-year-old fandex totally had 2 wound FNP termies and rending Psycannons.

And I'm guessing people ripped into you for it, but now they're "OK" with it since it's printed? :p

chaoticflanagan
25-03-2011, 01:10
There are Genestealers, Ymgarl, Garogyles, Homragaunt mobs and lots of other non monstrous things in the Tyranid book...

20 point models with expensive force weapons can't insta kill 1 wound models...

I love when people come up with excuses like this. As if to say "It's okay that they can instant kill all of your 200+ point big bugs because you have a lot of 1 wound models that are just as versatile hurrrrrrrrrrr!"

It's not like Tyranids have some nice shiny tanks and bunch of tank killing weapons hidden amongst their infantry. It's not like it's significantly easier to kill a Tyranid monstrous creature with mass missile/plasma spam compared to a vehicle. It's not like Tyranids have to have synapse (which is only available on models with multiple wounds) and is already a broken mechanic that doesn't feel like it was correctly worked into the codex given the price value of the models. Give me a break, the only chance that Tyranids have to kill high value vehicles are MCs or the zoanthrope; which I think GK have under control.

Anyone who looks at this codex and thinks it's balanced and fair need to open their eyes. There is so much wrong with this codex from the undercosted units, broken wargear, and flat out stupid special rules that it doesn't encourage this hobby to grow and expand, it causes it to die. This is a game after all and each army should be viable....

Draigo
25-03-2011, 01:50
Nemesis doomfist.
It's a nemesis in the form of a fist, and it brings certain doom.

SockMonkey
25-03-2011, 02:00
ya each army should be viable, so sorry your army didnt get the uber treatment. Wow I remember well not to long ago like weeks when DH's werent viable... against anything. Seen any DH armies place in a GT... EVER? Is the sky falling again? no its just a new codex like the last ...All of them that came out. hey Tyranid cry babies I remember when your new book came out how "broken" and "cheesy" they were. Which of course turned out to be utter rubbish. Is the book over powered? hey here is an idea!! wait till its out and see? ya I know right? crazy idea!!! or you can carry on and lament with all the other people who are just so hard done by. Go talk to a Necron player and see if they feel sorry for you.

No excuses for the fluff, its from my first read all horrible. Rules wise.. well I guess we shall just wait and see. My bets are that Guard will still be king and all them GK players will be seeing some strange marks in the win column they arent used to seeing.

Get over it. or dont. Lots of other games out there.

Joewrightgm
25-03-2011, 02:36
Apparently you're only cool if standing by your principles means you like something. :rolleyes:


Hellebore
I don't find that to be true. Personally I feel eldar players have cried poor us for so long I've become deaf to them on these forums regarding their treatment fluff wise.

And there is a great article by Aaron dembski Bowden about 40k s loose canon structure. Basically, take what you like and leave the rest. I'd like to think that's how most players get by. I know I do

chaoticflanagan
25-03-2011, 03:09
ya each army should be viable, so sorry your army didnt get the uber treatment. Wow I remember well not to long ago like weeks when DH's werent viable... against anything. Seen any DH armies place in a GT... EVER? Is the sky falling again? no its just a new codex like the last ...All of them that came out. hey Tyranid cry babies I remember when your new book came out how "broken" and "cheesy" they were. Which of course turned out to be utter rubbish. Is the book over powered? hey here is an idea!! wait till its out and see? ya I know right? crazy idea!!! or you can carry on and lament with all the other people who are just so hard done by. Go talk to a Necron player and see if they feel sorry for you.

No excuses for the fluff, its from my first read all horrible. Rules wise.. well I guess we shall just wait and see. My bets are that Guard will still be king and all them GK players will be seeing some strange marks in the win column they arent used to seeing.

Get over it. or dont. Lots of other games out there.

The codex is out...and we did read it..and it is more broken then the last. However it's not just Tyranids getting screwed, it's daemons too. There are cheesy rules out there, but when an army literally has a counter for an entire codex, something isn't right. The reason they weren't viable wasn't because of a bad codex, it's because it's 2 editions behind and new codex's came out that made the most of the new edition rules. It wasn't because another codex took a crap on them that made them not viable.

Tomalock
25-03-2011, 06:25
Sheesh, I'm sorry now that I even made this thread with all the whining that is being crammed into it. I accept that it is an unfortunate but natural part of every codex release that occurs, with often the same people crying the same things for each one. However, I feel the need to point out the inherrent flaws in the discussions that have emerged in this thread.

There are two common themes that occur in threads about the Grey Knights. One is that there are "broken lists" that can be built. The other is that there are "broken" units/items in the codex. From a purely theoretical perspective, these two concepts should be closely intertwined, but in reality they are not because generally the lists that are being declared "broken" do not contain, or atleast the mechanics of them are not centered around, the "broken" units/items. A case in point are the psyrifle dread lists. No one in this thread is bemoaning the fact that autocannon dreads with psybolt ammunition are wrecking their favorite armies and are unbeatable. Instead, what you have are people upset about grey knights having force weapons that is leading to the holocaust of multiwound models. The same applies to the army of BS3 space-monkey's wielding lascannons that seems to be the other most common "broken" list.

That brings me to the most common theme of complaint that is associated with the codex but is not really about the codex itself: that other armies are now unplayable because of this release. I hate to break it to you, but the armies are not any less playable now than they were three weeks ago. The two most pointed to are the Nids and the Daemons. Both legitimatly have cause to fear the Grey Knights as all the other armies do. However the new codex does not cause them to become unplayable.

There are generally two types of games that can be played, tournament (competitive) games and one-off (friendly) games. The latter can be dismissed from this discussion outright because you have complete control of how the game is played and whether it even occurs. You have the ultimate veto of a list you consider unfriendly or unfun: you simply do not play against it and there are no real repurcussions for doing so, outside of the social interactions that result between you and your opponent. Tournament games are the real root of the issue here because you have no control over who you play. You could still refuse to play someone in a tournament, but the repurcussions for that are severe enough that we will not operate under the assumption that that course of action is even an option for this discussion.

So with that framework laid out, lets probe the impact of Codex: Grey Knights on Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Tyranids. I have extensive personal experience with Daemons so I will be going more in depth with that codex than Nids. As this is competitive play we are talking about, there are usually specific list types that are considered a high enough quality for tournament all-comers gameplay. Therefore, comparing individual units between codexs is not productive because you are looking at the list as a whole to determine its preformance.

Daemons have two characteristics that exist in all three generally accepted "competitive" builds that appear on the tourny scene with some degree of regularity and cannot be directly affected by the majority of Grey Knight units. One is they have invul saves. This is important because it means that every chaos model will have the opportunity to roll a saving throw against any would caused by a Grey Knight model. I understand that there are a few ways to lessen the usefulness of that, however for the bulk of the GKs this is still a constant. The other is that they have high leadership, as in 10s. This matters to the multi-wound models much more than the single-wounders because of the Daemonbane rule, and it is very important because it gives them a very high statistical chance of not being affected by that power.

The three most common lists likely to appear on the tourny scene are Fatecrusher, Skarneesh, and mono Tzeentch. Are any of those three lists less viable after the release of Codex: Grey Knights? I have to say no. Fatecrusher's mechanic is unchanged by the GKs. Rerolling failed saves is just as valuable next week as it was three weeks ago. It is still just as important to get the charge off as it has been and power weapons still murder marines. Skarbrand and company similarly want to charge into combat as much as they always have and continue to rely on outnumbering elite foes with Daemonettes. Mono Tzeentch actually increased in viability in my opinion. Their 4+ or better invuls are just as good and their ability to kill marines is only intensified because of the small number of GKs that can actually be fielded. You want to keep them out of combat no less than you did before, which also means you are going to be largely unaffected coming in, with suicide flamers being the possible exception.

I am not as up on what is considered a competitive list on the Nid front, but the complaints about the force weapons killing the Nid codex is still untrue. While I do not know about specific build types, I do know that generally hybrid lists were the norm rather than the exception. With the demise of the Dakkafex lists, Tervigons and Hive Tyrants are the most common MCs you are likely to see. Tervigons have never been frontline CC fighters, and instead are generally there to support the gaunt hordes. This mechanic is unchanged and them getting into close combat is still as bad as it was before. Hive Tyrants that are built to shoot still do not want to get into CC. Hive Tyrants that are built to fight will almost always either have, on themselves or on their Hive Guard, Lash Whips. Warriors are exactly the same as the Tyrants. If they shoot, getting into combat is no less a problem than it was before and if they are CC then they are probably going to have the Whips.

Can either codex still have their "competitive" lists slaughted by Grey Knights. Absolutly. However, that does not make them any less viable than before the codex was released. They are not going to lose any more or any less than when IG, Space Wolves, Blood Angles, or Dark Eldar were the flavor of the month "power" armies.

I personally felt the most dread for my Daemons (I run heavy MC lists) and my Nids when Dark Eldar came out. All the poisoned weapons on the basic warriors completely negates toughness as a defense for my big guys. However, atleast where I play, none of the DE tourny players field warriors. They play wych heavy finnesse armies that rely on speed and webway portals to wreck me. So while it is true that an individual component of that army pretty much is designed to negate the strenghts of my lists, in reality that fear has not come to pass. And I still find IG Leafblower lists to be the single most unbalanced matchup for my Daemons.

My point in all of this is that saying X unit/wargear is going to wreck Y army is an unproductive and untrue statement. These interactions do not occur in a vacuum, there are many more factors involved that determine the outcome of any given game. If I wanted to I could sit here and cry about how the Doom or Flamers of Tzeentch will destroy my GK Strike Squad, Purifier, and Interceptor units, but in practice that is not necessairly going to lose me the game outright or even happen at all. If you want to really have a meaningful discussion, start comparing the tournament army lists to each other from the codexs. As in, how do the mechanics/capebilities of the Psyrifle dread list fare against Fatecrusher, Loganwing, Leafblower, etc. As we don't yet have a good body of tournament results to start making these comparisons, all of the whining is useless speculation about individual components interacting in a vacuum.

Give it some time, let things settle down. The world did not just end because this codex came out. It is not the worst thing to happen to 40k. Every new codex release has seemingly unstoppable units/wargear that are designed purely to kill *insert favorite army* but in the end the game plays on and little actually changes. It is easy to look at a unit entry and think about how amazingly "broken" it is, but until it is placed in an army on a table against an opponent, we just don't know how it will fare. Just go dredge up threads about the Doom prior to the Nid codex release to see what I mean about unfounded hysteria. Even before the FAQ he still wasn't being fielded in every army and breaking the game like people were making it out to be. Just breathe folks, and be happy for those of us that have been waiting a long time to have the joy of an updated codex.

DuskRaider
25-03-2011, 06:26
The codex is out...and we did read it..and it is more broken then the last. However it's not just Tyranids getting screwed, it's daemons too. There are cheesy rules out there, but when an army literally has a counter for an entire codex, something isn't right. The reason they weren't viable wasn't because of a bad codex, it's because it's 2 editions behind and new codex's came out that made the most of the new edition rules. It wasn't because another codex took a crap on them that made them not viable.

This. You think Ward would have the common courtesy to at least give Daemons a sporting chance with the old rules of respawning Troops, but nope... Yet another reason he has no business working in this industry.

The worst part about this is, Chaos won't get it's vindication for another year or two.

-Loki-
25-03-2011, 06:47
Sheesh, I'm sorry now that I even made this thread with all the whining that is being crammed into it.

You realize this is Warseer right? You didn't think you posted on some other forum or something?

DuskRaider
25-03-2011, 07:04
You realize this is Warseer right? You didn't think you posted on some other forum or something?

Yeah, god forbid we disagree with someone's opinion on here... :rolleyes:

Excessus
25-03-2011, 07:14
The worst part about this is, Chaos won't get it's vindication for another year or two.
...and then we can only hope that it's ok...

DuskRaider
25-03-2011, 07:28
...and then we can only hope that it's ok...

They'll probably change the design philosophy again. "Guys,we've been going overboard with this books the past few years! Time to bring it down a notch... way down. Let's start with Chaos!" :p

Excessus
25-03-2011, 08:13
They'll probably change the design philosophy again. "Guys,we've been going overboard with this books the past few years! Time to bring it down a notch... way down. Let's start with Chaos!" :p
hahahaha...I can see it happen, especially with some recent book out there... (and it's not even close to CSMs turn yet) :D

Asuron
25-03-2011, 08:50
They'll probably change the design philosophy again. "Guys,we've been going overboard with this books the past few years! Time to bring it down a notch... way down. Let's start with Chaos!" :p

Is this even possible? What more could they possibly take away?

Souleater
25-03-2011, 08:59
The first few 3rd Ed codexes had virtually no background information in them being slimline pamphlets more than books. Chaos was one of these.

Given the amount of whining about the background it wouldn't surprise me if GW decided to remove it on their next mood swing. (Rather than doing it better.)

mughi3
25-03-2011, 11:37
They'll probably change the design philosophy again. "Guys,we've been going overboard with this books the past few years! Time to bring it down a notch... way down. Let's start with Chaos!" :p

Nah i think that special right is reserved for my beloved dark angels again.
R.I.P. deathwiing
:(

Poseidal
25-03-2011, 12:11
Well it must seem unfair when you deliberatly ignore half the rules for banshees. Like Init 10, fleet and the fact they get 2 attacks (storm bolters do not count as a CC weapon).

To be fair he also then could be blamed for forgetting that the GK have ATSKNF, The Aegis, and force weapons.

Also, having weapon upgrades although not free allows more flexibility than a unit where all their upgrades are on a sergeant model.

And they have access to transports which they can assault out of (and one of which is also Fast).

Leo
25-03-2011, 13:59
well, apart from Fire Dragons none of the Aspects are really anything to write home about. The Eldar Codex is showing its age in the infantry and there is nothing that can be done until a new Codex shows up.

As far as Demonhunters go, for years my army has been little more than a punching bag for pretty much every army out there so yeah, I feel a little vindicated.
A new Codex will take some getting used to for me and my opponents (half the fun) and now I'm sitting one thirtysome IST models and a few Thunderhammer-Stormshield-Grey Knights but I certainly wont apologize for getting new units that are worth fielding. Least of all to Chaos players.

I'm not terribly excited of all that new and shiny stuff like the Dreadknight or the Storm Raven or that all Grey Knights now apparently get access to Rhinos when it was hinted in the last Codex that they stick with Landraiders for very good reasons.
But you know what? I could just not use the stuff I don't like. There, that was easy.

First I was suspicious that an army full of power weapons might cause problems but then I remembered that this had been around for years with the Deathwing and this army certainly didn't topple the game balance (at least not according to DA players).

I take it that the new fluff is daft (haven't read it yet). Who'd have thought. Chaos background has been a paragon of stupidity for decades so it stands to reason that their sworn enemies need something similar to measure up. 40k background has many parts that make the head hurt. Yet all in all it still manages to keep me in the game.

Now I'll be off making an inventory off the Demonhunter models I have and see what needs fixing in order to have a playable army. Maybe this new army will completely trample a few of my opponents, maybe it wont. But if it does that'll be a nice switch.

fantasypisces
25-03-2011, 16:48
Read the codex. 20pt models have force weapons? *throws Tyranids against the wall*


I just played 2,000 points of my nids vs my friend proxied grey-knights (using preview codex copy).

Here is the list of things that got force-weaponed.
2 Trygons
1 Tyranid Prime
2 Tyrant Guard
1 Hive Tyrant

Not to mention his vehicles were ignoring shaken and stunned (which was most of the time, my hive guard couldn't roll high).

He was using a unit with 7 Paladins (each equipped differently) his grandmaster, and his librarian. Oh his librarian fails to cast a power because of SitW? Ahh, no problem, Grey Knights can just cast that power multiple times, so he passes it the next time.

I called the came in turn 4, I was just so disqusted.

Forgot to add, I tried charging my "deathstar" unit into his paladins, hoping I could maybe whittle them down. Somehow I managed to cast paroxysm at LD6 against a hood (grumble grumble), only for the grandmaster to pull out his psychotropic grenades. The result? All Grey Knights auto-hit, and enemy models (my unit) have max one attack per model), in addition, he also had grenades that lowered my units toughness by 1. That's when I called the game, after my tyrant got force-weaponed by an I6 force weapon halbred.

Draigo
25-03-2011, 17:34
Unless you're hammernators, you can't do a thing to paladins in combat.
Isn't that obvious from the cost and statline alone? You shoot them to death. Charging just costs you units.

fantasypisces
25-03-2011, 17:41
Unless you're hammernators, you can't do a thing to paladins in combat.
Isn't that obvious from the cost and statline alone? You shoot them to death. Charging just costs you units.

Well, with my meager Tyranid shooting, I did do that.
5 Hive Guard
3 Zoanthropes
Two cluster spines from tervigons
30 Gaunts
Deathspitter and devourer (brainleech) from prime and tyrant.

I did three wounds.

Then charged with said 30 gaunts to try and whittle some down. Gaunts took I think 12 casualties? Gaunts caused 1 unsaved wound. The rest of the gaunts then pretty much popped due to fearless, lol.

I had no idea what Paladins could do, I just got a basic overview from my opponent because it was the first time I had seen the book.

Draigo
25-03-2011, 17:44
Hiveguard, heavy venom cannon, tyranno.
They fail their 2+, and go poof to instant-death.

Alternatively, feed them spawned gants for a few turns, so they don't get to your actual army. Relocate to other table quarter while they eat a cheap unit every turn. Paladins are extremely slow if they start on the board.

Worsle
25-03-2011, 17:53
Paladins aren't that scary in melee though. Some I6 hits are nice can all but it is still only 2 attacks each and for how much they cost that is really not that good. That is for their base cost, after people have spent all those points trying to pull off some stupid wound allocation game their damage out put is even more laughable unless you do something stupid like feed them all the targets they want. Maybe single man units have a future but as it stands I see nothing scary about

Why is it people assume it has to the the rules at fault when things go badly for them? Your terrible deathstar unit lost to an other mediocre deathstar unit? Oh no, maybe the problem is your running this deathstar in the first place? What is it about 40k and fantasy that makes people think that dumping as many points into a single unit and then throwing it at the most expensive thing the other side has is a good idea? 800+points in a single unit is terrible and if you can't combat that then you need to start thinking about what you are doing wrong and not start looking at the rules for an excuse.

fantasypisces
25-03-2011, 17:55
Hiveguard, heavy venom cannon, tyranno.
They fail their 2+, and go poof to instant-death.

Alternatively, feed them spawned gants for a few turns, so they don't get to your actual army. Relocate to other table quarter while they eat a cheap unit every turn. Paladins are extremely slow if they start on the board.

I didn't have two-thirds of those in my list though, and your counting too heavily on them failing a 2+ save. Of the three wounds, two were from a hiveguard insta-deathing one.

Then I did try the whole feeding him gaunts thing, yeah that didn't go so well, six inch massacre rolls seemed counter-productive in the long run of things. He had the unit spread almost to its max so even with pushing as many he could into base contact (for combat), his tail was still sticking out a ways.

Just with all the psy-cannons, rifle-man dreads, str6 heavy bolters, str5 stormbolters, and the vindicare dishing out two wounds every turn, and my inability to roll cover saves, I had already lost a lot of my army by the time I had even got anywhere near him.

To be fair, he is a VERY good player and I'm maybe slightly above average. But even everyone watching (a good five-six people) were commenting on how this was the biggest rock-paper-scissors matchup they have ever seen.

I had three guys buy me a beers after the match because of it lol ;)

fantasypisces
25-03-2011, 17:59
Paladins aren't that scary in melee though. Some I6 hits are nice can all but it is still only 2 attacks each and for how much they cost that is really not that good. That is for their base cost, after people have spent all those points trying to pull off some stupid wound allocation game their damage out put is even more laughable unless you do something stupid like feed them all the targets they want. Maybe single man units have a future but as it stands I see nothing scary about

Why is it people assume it has to the the rules at fault when things go badly for them? Your terrible deathstar unit lost to an other mediocre deathstar unit? Oh no, maybe the problem is your running this deathstar in the first place? What is it about 40k and fantasy that makes people think that dumping as many points into a single unit and then throwing it at the most expensive thing the other side has is a good idea? 800+points in a single unit is terrible and if you can't combat that then you need to start thinking about what you are doing wrong and not start looking at the rules for an excuse.


Wow, hostile much?

That was the first time I had the run the unit, I did it because someone wanted to see how it worked.

Yeah the unit isn't 'that' amazing in combat (the paladins), it was the grandmaster with the grenade belt from hell that made them good.

And I have mentioned that I rolled bad, and implied he rolled well (passing all his SitW rolls, getting the perfect result he needed on psychotropic grenades), etc.

It's a new army, I just have to figure out how to fight it, I was just giving an example of how badly I faired about it, and later in another post admitted to him being a much better player than me.

Draigo
25-03-2011, 18:00
Each guy gets 2 attacks, that are master-crafted, can have one extra if the unit bought a flag, and should Draigo or another grandmaster will it, they'll have counter-attack on LD10. If they can pass a psychic test, the entire unit gets +1 S, too.

Here's a simple one.
Paladin 1: master-crafted halberd, master-crafted psycannon.
Paladin 2: master-crafted hammer, master-crafted psycannon.
Paladin 3: master-crafted halberd.
Paladin 4: master-crafted hammer.
Paladin 5: master-crafted halberd, apothecary upgrade.

425.
Yes, deathstars are dumb, but not all armies can deal effectively with 2+ dudes that have feel no pain.

fantasypisces
25-03-2011, 18:06
Each guy gets 2 attacks, that are master-crafted, can have one extra if the unit bought a flag, and should Draigo or another grandmaster will it, they'll have counter-attack on LD10. If they can pass a psychic test, the entire unit gets +1 S, too.

Here's a simple one.
Paladin 1: master-crafted halberd, master-crafted psycannon.
Paladin 2: master-crafted hammer, master-crafted psycannon.
Paladin 3: master-crafted halberd.
Paladin 4: master-crafted hammer.
Paladin 5: master-crafted halberd, apothecary upgrade.

425.
Yes, deathstars are dumb, but not all armies can deal effectively with 2+ dudes that have feel no pain.

Yeah, the apothecary and grandmaster with all the grenades is what did it. And your last statement is what everyone watching felt about nids, there were constant comments of "how are you going to deal with that". Me being still kind of new to playing nids, had no idea.

The Grey Knight player then used that same list against my friends vulkan list, and the Space Marines won pretty handily because they had enough shooting to dish out. That's why everyone commented rock/paper/scissors.

Anyway, I have to leave the forums for a bit to get some stuff done, just wanted to give my horrid example against the army.

Draigo
25-03-2011, 18:08
Tyranids just get slaughtered by knights, sad to say.
Yes, I play tyranids, too :(

My 30+ warriors are going on the shelf, to replace the grey knights that used to collect dust.

Worsle
25-03-2011, 18:12
Wow, hostile much?

That was the first time I had the run the unit, I did it because someone wanted to see how it worked.

Yeah the unit isn't 'that' amazing in combat (the paladins), it was the grandmaster with the grenade belt from hell that made them good.

And I have mentioned that I rolled bad, and implied he rolled well (passing all his SitW rolls, getting the perfect result he needed on psychotropic grenades), etc.

It's a new army, I just have to figure out how to fight it, I was just giving an example of how badly I faired about it, and later in another post admitted to him being a much better player than me.

Only your original comment and ones a lot of other people have put up amounts to I did things right, this unit is at fault. It does not help anything blaming your codex for the lose does not help either. Again people are quick to blame the rules rather than their own inability and it renders most judgements meaningless because of it. Edit. I should say it is not personal, you might have trip it off but it happens a lot.

Draigo given most weapons used to target paladins will ignore their fnp anyway it is mostly a waisted upgrade. You have a 500point unit that biggest weakness is the one thing every army should be taking anyway, anti tank weapons. It is the equivalent to a video game boss with the flashing red week point. We are also spending an extra 200ish points more to add a grandmaster to the unit? If a 500 point unit can't look after its self what is the point? That is right there is none.

Draigo
25-03-2011, 18:15
Not everybody has AP2 with S8, or even massed AP2, period.
Look at tyranids and orks.

Worsle
25-03-2011, 18:32
Nids can take enough S8+ shooting to be a worry though and they are also capable of fielding combat units that can rip paladins apart (lash whip + bonesword). Orks are the only army that don't really have a lot of good tools to deal with this unit but I don't think the ork army has a lot of good tools. However even if we assume your are correct that would be what 3 codexes at the most that have issues with your unit. So this unit would only be of any use if you tailor your list? Well that makes it quite a terrible unit.

This is assuming you even feel the need to engage this unit, because if they don't play ball on that issue you will find the rest of your army is fighting against a 2 to 1 points advantage. Deathstars are always terrible for this reason alone. Though if we learn anything from the fantasy forums most people seem to over look this very simple solution in favour of just feeding your units straight into the deathstar.

SockMonkey
25-03-2011, 20:33
The codex is out...and we did read it..and it is more broken then the last. However it's not just Tyranids getting screwed, it's daemons too. There are cheesy rules out there, but when an army literally has a counter for an entire codex, something isn't right. The reason they weren't viable wasn't because of a bad codex, it's because it's 2 editions behind and new codex's came out that made the most of the new edition rules. It wasn't because another codex took a crap on them that made them not viable.

Yes the full and proper codex is "out", and not the leaked codex which isnt accurate. Can we agree that GK/DH should... well kick the crap out of daemons?? As for beating Tyranids.. they beat one type of list. I dont think they are the answer for all nid lists. my point stands about first read over reacting to a new codex. I dont know how to find all the whine fests from the last again every codex release since the internet.

I dont know if you were playing when the DH codex first came out but they were really not all that fantastic when it came out. yet that same bunk codex was all "we" had and we made due. And almost every codex that came out afterwords was better still to what was not a great codex to start with. And I am sure I did my share of complaining about the weak book I had to work with.

Do you really believe that this codex is going to do any better than say melta/vet guard? I dont. Is every codex given same skill and same "luck" going to have the same outcome in every game? I believe the answer is no to both. Best guess for the first and experience from the second. My thing is the doom and gloom and out right fallacy of most arguments and whines that goes on here drives me mad. Sure this is the internet where the anonymity allows people to say things that they wouldnt IRL because when they get proven wrong like I believe will happen here (past indicates thus) thier peers would heap the deserved scorn on them.

Sure my last couple posts on this subject have been inflammatory, but I was really hoping that it would make people think. To be honest the whining hasnt stopped but I havnt seen any "this fluff is so bad I quit" posts.

Just re-read some past codex pre-release threads. I had a brief look for some but not that hard. Re read even one or two and I think most of these arguments would fall apart.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
25-03-2011, 21:09
Can we agree that GK/DH should... well kick the crap out of daemons??

Not really, no. If one codex is custom made to destroy another then its terrible game design. GK/Daemon fights should be brutal, with both armies receiving buffs against the other in a no-holds-barred, highest power levels battle. Grey Knights should be at their Peak when fighting daemons, but similarly daemons need to be at their peak fighting Grey Knights. It should be a battle where both players got to see their armies at their best and both are excited to play more games against their nemesis.

One army curb stomping another is fun for nobody.


I dont know if you were playing when the DH codex first came out but they were really not all that fantastic when it came out. yet that same bunk codex was all "we" had and we made due. And almost every codex that came out afterwords was better still to what was not a great codex to start with. And I am sure I did my share of complaining about the weak book I had to work with.

DH have been my main army, through thick and thin, since it was released. "Our old codex was not top tier" is not a good argument for unbalancing the game with our new one.


Do you really believe that this codex is going to do any better than say melta/vet guard? I dont. Is every codex given same skill and same "luck" going to have the same outcome in every game? I believe the answer is no to both.


Actually, in an ideal world they could be completely balanced yet different, and even in our very flawed real world there could be enough of an approximation of balance to make every codex fully viable against another codex. The better the balance, the more the game leans towards skill rather then which book and color of models you brought today.

I don't even necessarily agree that the sky is falling, but the arguments you're making here are patently untrue. Games CAN be balanced, and shouldn't devolve into X Beats Y Beats Z Beats X. The fact that lists like the Meltavet/Leafblower Guard or Razorwolves exist does not mean that no attempt at balance should be made.

Commotionpotion
25-03-2011, 21:31
From what I've heard, I feel vindicated.

In my view that having a seperate Daemon codex was a bad idea ;)

Quite an interesting combo it was - revamp on the cheap (C:CSM) and blatant profiteering (C:D) at the same time.

Bit of a fumbled ball there, GW.

SockMonkey
25-03-2011, 21:55
The game has never been really balanced, so thats nothing new. If every one was equal wouldnt you just roll one die at the beginning and high roll wins? Yes that point is entirely overblown and a lot of things determine the out come of any game, but I am sure you can see where I am going.

I agree it would have been cool for daemons to get a bonus like they did, but lets not kid our selves DH's have always had a huge advantage against daemons, even with the bonus the otherside got. And I think they should have. I to be fully honest my knowledge of daemons as an army is limited to say the least, are they going to be unplayable? Is a good daemon player going to loose even against an average GK player? I think skill of player and to a lesser extent luck will always be the main factor in any game. Thematics wise I dont agree that daemons should get bonuses against GK's. Why would they? game wise? as I said above.

I think the argument that this codex unbalancing the game is not good. I dont think it is any more than the last codecii have, sure some rules are new and unforeseen but is it system breaking? not so sure. I think like the last codecii its just going to take some adjustment. My main issue is the over reaction and the feeding of the frenzy. I think this is just a continued GW pendulum swing codex design action. new addition is coming out and who is to say what the coming years will bring. Its like the argument that unit x from my codex is 25 points but doesnt have wargear a,b,c and yours does is wrong. (not that I can recall you arguing that point)

I made some army comparisons, yes they were the extreme but I made them with the thought that if an extreme list vs extreme list play will the GK list over come? Im not sure. Maybe they will.

I just dont think that every codex previous has been equal to all others before. So whats with all the nerd rage of this one?

Inquisitor_Tolheim
25-03-2011, 23:06
I just dont think that every codex previous has been equal to all others before. So whats with all the nerd rage of this one?

Well there's your mistake: the nerd rage is not just this one. Pretty much most of the new codices have been raged over to one extent or another.

I doubt that the GK codex is going to be the end of the game. GK's are not going to be walking all over any of the current high end armies. There are too few of them and they'll die to the massed S8 fire that dominates the metagame just like any other elite marine force. But there are several design decision that make them head scratchers when looked at in comparison to any of the non-top tier armies. They are a specific rock to a specific paper with a specific scissors.

Honestly GW has a pretty bad history of poor balance. While 5th has been a decent edition for external balance in comparison to some of the others (a few significant builds excepted), but the internal balance in books has been pretty atrocious. There are standout armies and there are armies that have been left behind, but failing to balance the game before does not make it less disappointing that they are still failing to do it now.

DarkstarSabre
25-03-2011, 23:15
Hiveguard, heavy venom cannon, tyranno.
They fail their 2+, and go poof to instant-death.


Pity that, with the exception of the Hive Guard those other options are horrendously overpriced for what they are on and Grey Knights can deal with TMCs like no tomorrow.

I6 Force Halberds go! 1 wound = POP!

Draigo
26-03-2011, 01:42
At range, no.
Why are you moving your shooty monsters towards his speartips?

People not taking tyrannos is one of many reasons why tyranids are considered so bad.

Meckboy
26-03-2011, 02:30
The bugs can compete,

After codex shock has worn off; balanced lists will prevail.

Gaunts, backed by Tervigon; what is the point ratio with Grey Knights?

Big bugs will suffer, but they already are (DE), adapt, try reserve lists, pod lists, the Bug codex really does have choices.

The sky is not falling.

Orktavius
26-03-2011, 05:29
I like how everyone likes to theory craft about how great a codex is without having ever played a game with or against it. Also....and maybe I'm wrong as I don't own the Tyranid codex and really don't know their rules...but wouldn't say...... Tyranid warriors with lash whip and bone swords really make paladins have a bad day? Don't tyranids have a number of units that have the shadow of the warp rule without actually being psykers again putting an evil little crimp in the GK's day? Aren't Grey knight armies still going to be pathetically tiny and fairly 1-dimensional compared to just about everyone else leaving them vunerable to many a strategy that only requires you to have two braincells and the ability to not drool on yourself to exploit?

I'm just saying...lotsa good stuff in this dex, but give it a month or two and just like with Dark Eldar all the pissing and moaning will be gone.

Draigo
26-03-2011, 06:59
Grey knights are the kings of board control. Your army's only gonna be small if you make it that way. Plenty of ways to fill it with cheap units.

mughi3
26-03-2011, 07:19
Grey knights are the kings of board control. Your army's only gonna be small if you make it that way. Plenty of ways to fill it with cheap units.

Quite true, all the vetran GK players i have seen have ben putting together lists with 30-50-models still with I6 force halberds and lots of shooting. and even the smaller 30 model count lists usually still have over 40 wounds in them.

Hell my friends competative crimson fist list has a little over 50 wounds in it.

It will only be a very small force if you really want it to, not something i see tourney players doing.

Considering something like 75% of tounament players are marines i see the GKs as the new iron warriors dominant list. while i do not play many tourney anymore and i am always willing to give a game a go at my LGS.


I am looking forward to some test games this weekend against GKs and while it may not be a forgone conclusion(funky dice rolls happen) i can still calculate dice averages, so i fully expect to get my **** handed to me against my local GK players.

Baaltor
26-03-2011, 08:41
Not really, no. If one codex is custom made to destroy another then its terrible game design. GK/Daemon fights should be brutal, with both armies receiving buffs against the other in a no-holds-barred, highest power levels battle. Grey Knights should be at their Peak when fighting daemons, but similarly daemons need to be at their peak fighting Grey Knights. It should be a battle where both players got to see their armies at their best and both are excited to play more games against their nemesis.

One army curb stomping another is fun for nobody.



DH have been my main army, through thick and thin, since it was released. "Our old codex was not top tier" is not a good argument for unbalancing the game with our new one.



Actually, in an ideal world they could be completely balanced yet different, and even in our very flawed real world there could be enough of an approximation of balance to make every codex fully viable against another codex. The better the balance, the more the game leans towards skill rather then which book and color of models you brought today.

I don't even necessarily agree that the sky is falling, but the arguments you're making here are patently untrue. Games CAN be balanced, and shouldn't devolve into X Beats Y Beats Z Beats X. The fact that lists like the Meltavet/Leafblower Guard or Razorwolves exist does not mean that no attempt at balance should be made.

Dude, you're such a bro.


I agree it would have been cool for daemons to get a bonus like they did, but lets not kid our selves DH's have always had a huge advantage against daemons, even with the bonus the otherside got. And I think they should have. I to be fully honest my knowledge of daemons as an army is limited to say the least, are they going to be unplayable? Is a good daemon player going to loose even against an average GK player? I think skill of player and to a lesser extent luck will always be the main factor in any game. Thematics wise I dont agree that daemons should get bonuses against GK's. Why would they? game wise? as I said above.


Daemons are sort of unplayable as they were meant to be played, the only lists that work function by abusing rules and making ridiculous combinations (skarbrand and anything slaanesh? WTP?!?!? (what the pfargtl). A good daemon player stands a disporpotional chance of loosing to an average player of any other. Compare the wargear of a bloodletter and a grey knight, it's absurd that they're the similarly priced.

In terms of bonuses, Daemons shouldn't be stronger against grey knights, and they never were! They instead got numbers and other advantages. Fluffwise that makes sense because the knights are only used were desperately needed, and in game play it makes sense because it lets the knight mow through daemons whilst still maintaining balance and creating a balanced game.

As a Daemon player I'm cool with you having overpowered guys if I can swamp you in bodies, all in a fun game. But now I'm stuck listening to my friends threaten to pick up grey knights every time I win a game. Honestly, if they were to do that I'd just stop playing chaos, it's hard enough already. Not that I only want to win, I'm fine losing more often than not, but I don't want to be on either side of a slaughter.

I see it was foolish now, but I believed GW would integrate this concept well. It would not have been hard, and now we must wait years for the issue to be possibly corrected. I doubt it will though.

Also, on the subject of people predicting whether Dark Angels or Chaos will get shafted: as a player of both races, I can honestly say I believe both will get shafted, consecutively.

Tomalock
26-03-2011, 08:57
No offense, but I'll take my Tzeentch Daemons (or any other list) vs. Grey Knights over mech IG, Space Wolves, or Dark Eldar any day of the week. 10 Horrors kill the same percentage of Grey Knights in power armor as they do any other space marine varient, but the GKs are more expensive and therefore have less of them. As I pointed out in my previous post, at the end of the day Daemons still have invul saves and high leadership, something the GKs can't do a lot about. A C:SM librarian with null zone is a greater nightmare to me than most of the GK powers, warpquake and the one that removes gifts being the most inconvient of the bunch.

I really think that Grey Knights are a much better matchup for most daemon players (assuming both people bring all-comer lists that are not tailored for each other specifically) than any of the current top-tier armys I previously mentioned. Heavy mech lists (lots of vehicles) are unlikely to be fielded due to costs of units, and if they are, the units inside of them will either be very small or not afford the toys. Likewise there are not as many high strength (8+) or poisoned attacks that can be brought by GKs. Just give it time for the dust to settle, but I like my odds vs. GKs than most of the recent relases, Nids excluded, as a daemon player.

Poseidal
26-03-2011, 09:03
Any percieved problems Grey Knights may have with numbers can be offset by Corteaz and friends.

Shamana
26-03-2011, 10:31
True, henchmen may well be one of the best tricks in a GK codex. I'd say even without Coteaz smaller games may see a few of them - iirc they are elites, (inquisitors allow you to take 1 more free of the FoC slots), so unless you've already filled your elite slots you don't need an inquisitor to take one. Yes, they aren't scoring, but considering how expensive GKs are, a henchman band can be good filler for the extra points.

Tomalock
26-03-2011, 18:01
You are only allowed to take 1 band per inquisitor unless you have coteaz.

With that said, Poseidal asserts that all Grey Knights players will take that special character to make up for small numbers. I find it hard to believe you can make that assumption with a straight face. I know I have no intention of taking him and I have yet to see more than one or two, out of all the proposed GK lists on this forum, include him. Any longtime GK player will tell you that lack of numbers is nothing new, or unexpected. It is just part of the game when the boys in boltgun metal hit the table. As a Daemon player I would say bring all the henchmen you want, they are much easier to kill and don't have the rules or equipment everyone in this thread are upset about.

Azzy
26-03-2011, 18:03
I would like to caution people that 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, or even 50 games is far too small a sample to provide an accurate representation of the population. The larger the sample size, the more accurate the conclusion that can be drawn about the population at large. So, stop trying to jump to any conclusions and just wait a few months as different people across the globe play games with and against the GK and contribute their own experiences.

...Or submit to being completely irrational and freak out all over the place before there's enough data to draw an informed conclusion. You're choice.

Poseidal
26-03-2011, 18:17
I'm saying you can choose to offset the weakness by taking Cortaez. You can choose not to, but the option still exists.

I could play an all on-foot Eldar army, but I can't say Eldar army lists in general struggle taking objectives with fast moving units.

I could play an Ork army with nothing but my HQ and Gretchin but I can't say that the Ork army list doesn't have enough T4.

I could play an IG army taking only infantry platoons but I can't say the IG army list has nothing mobile and no heavy armour.

The Highlander
26-03-2011, 18:21
A quick question for anyone who has the codex, can Inquisitors and their retinues still take Land Raiders? I’ve got an Inquisitor in a land raider as one of the centrepieces of my imperial collection and I want to know if I’ll still be able to use it then the new WH codex comes out.

Tomalock
26-03-2011, 18:37
No they cannot, which makes me sad because I have two inquisitorial land raiders. One I will not repaint as it has the FW brass etchings on it, but the other might see some repainting at some point. On the plus side, you can always take it as a Heavy and run your Inquisitor+company inside of it as I have been doing in a couple test games.

Fine Poseidal, I conceed that the option is always there. I don't agree that having that option reduces the weakness for the army as a whole however. It only reduces it for the armies he is included in. Just like saying Codex: Grey Knights armies will always insta kill Nids because they have access to force weapons, even though that point is irrelevant in an army that has no Grey Knights in it (Coteaz armies). Your examples highlight specailty lists to prove your point that the army as a whole is not that way, but Coteaz is the opposite,:he is the speciality list whose options only exist if you take him and only him. All of those examples you put forth are of armies that have many options in different force org slots that can fufill your statements. The Grey Knights are the opposite. However, I think we are arguing on different levels so not going to push this further.

Poseidal
26-03-2011, 19:49
Having something as an option isn't the same as not having something as an option.

If I run Grey Knights, I may or may not choose to run force weapons and Cortaez.

If I'm Tyranids, there's always a risk that the GK player will have Force Weapons. The Grey Knight player can CHOOSE to have small numbers or not.

Tomalock
26-03-2011, 20:40
True, but you choose to take multi-wound models. So that means that Grey Knights with force weapons are not a threat to Nids following your logic. The point of making generalizations is not to cover all eventualities, but to explain the most likely occurances. So while yes, Grey Knights might not always have Force Weapons or small numbers, each statement is more likely to be true than not based on the total options available in the codex. Thus one is a strength and the other a weakness for the Army regardless of whether there is a single option to allow either statement to be false.

I understand what you are saying and I do not disagree with you. But I am hoping that we can both agree that the option to not take any force weapons does not mean that the percentage of units wielding force weapons is not a strength for the codex as a whole. Likewise, the option to take Coteaz, and thus potentially vastly increase your model count, does not mean that the percentage of expensive units in the codex is not a weakness for the codex as a whole.

Shamana
26-03-2011, 21:03
You are only allowed to take 1 band per inquisitor unless you have coteaz.

You can take one band regardless of the FoC per inquisitor, but aren't they elites as well?

The Highlander
26-03-2011, 21:54
No they cannot, which makes me sad because I have two inquisitorial land raiders. One I will not repaint as it has the FW brass etchings on it, but the other might see some repainting at some point. On the plus side, you can always take it as a Heavy and run your Inquisitor+company inside of it as I have been doing in a couple test games.

Damn, that's going to be annoying. The problem I have is that my Inquisitor is a witch hunters one, and given that they are probably going to copy the entry from the GK codex when the update the WH codex (and the chance of them getting access to Land Raiders is nil) then I suspect I wouldn’t be able to use him anymore.

Xabraxis
26-03-2011, 22:13
No offense, but I'll take my Tzeentch Daemons (or any other list) vs. Grey Knights over mech IG, Space Wolves, or Dark Eldar any day of the week. 10 Horrors kill the same percentage of Grey Knights in power armor as they do any other space marine varient, but the GKs are more expensive and therefore have less of them.

I just played a 2 on 2 game, with tau and shooty nids vs blood angels and the greyknight player. Shooting did nothing.


Anyone who thinks that they have better luck de-landraidering a greyknight squad before they get to you than Tau railguns and a few Tyrannafex are fooling themselves.

Azzy
26-03-2011, 22:59
Damn, that's going to be annoying. The problem I have is that my Inquisitor is a witch hunters one, and given that they are probably going to copy the entry from the GK codex when the update the WH codex (and the chance of them getting access to Land Raiders is nil) then I suspect I wouldn’t be able to use him anymore.

I expect you won't find any Inquisitors in the upcoming Codex: Adepta Sororitas.

Commotionpotion
26-03-2011, 23:04
Use this for Inquisitorial Land Raiders:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf

Just ignore the bits about retinues and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers

jack da greenskin
26-03-2011, 23:37
I know someone who feels vindicated... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLhDf7XdgQc&feature=player_embedded

SockMonkey
28-03-2011, 20:14
It sucks that daemons are unplayable as intended. og I know what thats like, and this codex is going along way to fixing that for me.

Question out there with out all the Henny Penny's answering, if the GK list isnt a waac list (I dont play them unless its a tourny ) are they going to be artarded over powered? I think alot of folks need to step back and evaluate the reality of the situation. I can guarantee that you wont see many paladin deathstar units at most games. they are just too expensive and are fairly easy to wipe off the board. Granted its easier for some than others but that has always been the case.

No honestly the sky is not falling.

brightblade
28-03-2011, 20:27
I know someone who feels vindicated... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLhDf7XdgQc&feature=player_embedded

Hee Hee Hee. 'I roll more ones than binary.' Ha Ha, very funny if not entirely appropriate. :D

I am gm-ing a game between demons and gk on the weekend and am looking forward to it but then neither player is a cheesemaster. :)

Mannimarco
28-03-2011, 20:52
Have we really gotten to the point where ALL games are about taking the most powerful builds available in the codex with no regards for the number 1 rule (objective is to win, point is to have fun).

When did the mutual contract between 2 players to have a fun game playing with toy soldiers turn into a hyper competitive mess where its all about putting the most powerful unit you can on the board and screw the other persons enjoyment.

You want to play a game? You gotta take the most optimised list you can from your codex or you're gonna lose.

brightblade
28-03-2011, 21:00
Not at all. i had a good look at the codex and think there is loads of fluffy fun to be had. Loads.

But it is open to abuse by certain types that most fun players like to avoid. All my mates play for fun, Thank goodness. We are planning some mad cinematic apoc games. Looking forward to it.

Worsle
28-03-2011, 21:04
Maybe it happened around the time people released that having fun and wanting to win are not mutually exclusive? Or maybe people realised that playing a game where you try to win but not to much as that is over stepping the imaginary boundary is silly? Maybe it is the fact that a lot of people don't play the best stuff but still feel they should win no matter what and when they don't it must be some one else's fault? Maybe it is the fact that there is no such things as a most optimised build in most 5th edition books but instead the internet just gravitates to easiest to understand of concepts and stupid buzzwords? Maybe it is a lot of things. However I can say I have a lot more fun when some one is not using passive aggressive whining to imply that somehow any other style of playing than their own is wrong or you can't be having real fun unless you play their way.

Building a strong army is no more abusing the system than any other style of play. You don't have to like it but you are not a better person because of it.

Easy E
28-03-2011, 21:51
Have we really gotten to the point where ALL games are about taking the most powerful builds available in the codex with no regards for the number 1 rule (objective is to win, point is to have fun).

Yes.

For some perspective, read Rick Priestley's discussion on the Warlord Games page about creating Blackpowder and Hail Ceasar. It is hard to believe that it is the same person who created the Warhammer 40K we play today. It is telling about the evolution of this game system game over the years.

quietus
28-03-2011, 21:57
I am jacked !!!! I ran a pure GK list in third and it (for me) was Beyond difficult!

I am beyond Thrilled with the NEW DEX !!V The Models look MAZING!!

I acctually got the models and the dex early! :) :) :)

I have some left and have put a separate thread in the trade area! its on ebay or whatever PM me if you need a link ...

Doommasters
03-04-2011, 23:43
I watched a few games at my local store on the weekend, and the initial thoughts were that the Grey Knights are over powered. However towards the end of the day the mood had shifted and the general consensus was that while the Grey Knights have great options, they are over priced making them less than desirable if you want a balls to the wall competitive army.

This is just my opinion based on the conversation of games and the general mood of the players, including the store owner who is a very competitive player.

brightblade
04-04-2011, 20:26
I played against them on sunday, 1750pts, with my eldar and had a blast. A really fun fun game with a fun opponent. The book is open to abuse but then aren't they all? (Yes. They are.)

I have now read the book and think it is great. Fun, fluffy and with loads of good builds without being autowin like so many feared. I look forward to playing them again. So I agree with Doommasters, they are expensive but fun to be had in buckets both with them and against them.

Eldar runes of warding are handy but not too much of an nuisance to GK's. Actually, thinking on it, the psychic aspect to the game was especially enjoyable. :)

Doommasters
04-04-2011, 21:49
I think i am going to start collecting Grey Knights, now i just need to pick another army to build at the same time.

Souleater
04-04-2011, 21:56
My Sisters of Battle feel vindicated. The Grey Knights? They will feel more IMMOLATED!

Skyros
04-04-2011, 22:04
Have we really gotten to the point where ALL games are about taking the most powerful builds available in the codex with no regards for the number 1 rule (objective is to win, point is to have fun).

When did the mutual contract between 2 players to have a fun game playing with toy soldiers turn into a hyper competitive mess where its all about putting the most powerful unit you can on the board and screw the other persons enjoyment.

Why do you enjoy games less if there are powerful units on the board?

Most people enjoy games more if there are powerful units, heros, etc, on the board.

Also, if you're playing the game for fun, shouldn't you not care if you lose? You still had fun, right?

If you have fun running a sub-optimal list, run the sub-optimal list and have fun. If you enjoy winning, take and optimal list and have fun. Don't complain you can't do both at the same time.

Monodominant
04-04-2011, 22:37
Or how about you do both?

You play friendly games with fluffy lists or even go crazy and put the worst possible thing right next to the best thing and then write fun background stories about the battle.

But then when you want to test your mettle and skill you go to a tournament where your list is "scrutinezed" and tested against other all comers lists in a competitive environment. Sure someone will now cry out "but there is no balance" and we will choose to ignore him since indeed some things are stronger than others but skill plays a role as do... rolls and lists and codices.

Pushkin
04-04-2011, 22:38
I've got the dex, but haven't played Gks yet. My impressions are that its a very powerful dex, but not game breakingly so. The specialist units (vindicare, paladins dread knight etc) are good choices, but i think as people adapt to the dex they won't seem as bad. However there are some parts of the dex that really make me question the decision making process that has gone into allocate points cost and/or equipment. For example:

Space marine terminator is an elites choice and costs 40pts Storm bolter and power fist;

Grey Knights terminator: Storm Bolter, Nemesis Force sword, Frag grenades, Krak Grenades, Psyk out grenades, Preferred Enemey Daemons, The Aegis and Hammerhand
Troops choice also 40pts

I accept that you shouldn't compare points values directly etc, but when equipment wise a GK terminator is better in every department shouldn't it cost at least one point more?

AND they're troops?!?

Again i don't the codex is broken, but i do think decisions like this make it very hard to argue with the people that do. I mean they increased the points on other stuff e.g. vehicles but not the terminators? it just seems so strange.

Winterfell
04-04-2011, 22:50
I haven't cared about GWs fluff for the game since 2nd ed - it's all gone downhill since then. It was ALL better in my day, blah blah blah.

I'm just a little peeved that people who were telling me my GK sucked three months ago, and even sold me theirs because they "sucked so bad" are now turning somersaults and spending twice as much again on newer plastics because their codex is uber.

By that you mean one guy?

FabricatorGeneralMike
05-04-2011, 05:02
I've got the dex, but haven't played Gks yet. My impressions are that its a very powerful dex, but not game breakingly so. The specialist units (vindicare, paladins dread knight etc) are good choices, but i think as people adapt to the dex they won't seem as bad. However there are some parts of the dex that really make me question the decision making process that has gone into allocate points cost and/or equipment. For example:

Space marine terminator is an elites choice and costs 40pts Storm bolter and power fist;

Grey Knights terminator: Storm Bolter, Nemesis Force sword, Frag grenades, Krak Grenades, Psyk out grenades, Preferred Enemey Daemons, The Aegis and Hammerhand
Troops choice also 40pts

I accept that you shouldn't compare points values directly etc, but when equipment wise a GK terminator is better in every department shouldn't it cost at least one point more?

AND they're troops?!?

Again i don't the codex is broken, but i do think decisions like this make it very hard to argue with the people that do. I mean they increased the points on other stuff e.g. vehicles but not the terminators? it just seems so strange.

Well, if they made them too expensive and elites, people wouldn't need to buy multiplual boxes of them would they?

This way you can run a all termie army using TAGK and Paladins. Win Win for GW. Gotta catch them all....I mean Gotta move those kits.

Excessus
05-04-2011, 05:17
what disturbs me is the grenades on terminators...suddenly they don't have any drawbacks...

Monodominant
05-04-2011, 06:30
Costing 40+ points in the army where your basic trooper costs 20 without upgrades is an inherent drawback...

Doommasters
05-04-2011, 06:34
Yea you have to look at the cost of the other units. If Terminators were 40 points and u had a low cost spam-able troop option maybe they would be to powerful. The fact is you already have a low unit count so even at 40 points it is unlikely they are under costed.

chromedog
05-04-2011, 10:50
I have been an avid player of grey knights since the release of the deamonhunters codex

I've also done this.
I've had my **** handed to me by BA and SW players with their "cheesy" armies (they call the GK cheesy, well, takes one to know one, I guess. :-P ) for the last few years.
Principles? Don't give me that gak.
I've always played my SM as straight vanilla, using the ultramarines codex (only they weren't ever blue), none of this plain grey plastic, switching up from SM to DA to BT to SW to BA just to get the shiny new stuff gak. I'm plenty principled.

It's time to exact some payback. Booyah!
I intend to take names and kick some.

Abaddonshand
06-04-2011, 01:54
what disturbs me is the grenades on terminators...suddenly they don't have any drawbacks...

Grenades are actually perfectly understandable for grey knights in terminator armour, as they have a free hand to use them, unlike space marine terminators. You will note that the malleus inquisitor does not get grenades with his terminator armour, as his force weapon and stormbolter occupy both hands. Matt Ward has been very strict in terms of WYSIWYG, look at brotherhood banners replacing nemisis weapons, and narthecium replacing stormbolters. Deathwing have no such limitations, despite the practicalities of the models' gear.