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Pooky
22-03-2011, 08:21
So I'm starting to get into WFB and am doing a Dark Elf army and am a little shakey on some things...

At first I was sold on the idea of Bolt Throwers since a pair of them can spit out a decent number of shots for a single Rare choice. I was then looking at the War Hydra and thought, 'Oh, wow! Why would anyone take Bolt Throwers when you can have in the order of 3D6 St5 attacks and the handlers attacks too! And it has a Regen save!'. I then realised that the Bolt Throwers are still decent for their points, but the War Hydra is just nuts.

So, am I incorrect in thinking that the War Hydra is broken?

dragonet111
22-03-2011, 08:27
A single hydra is powerful (under costed) but manageable. Now it all depend of your gaming group, if it's a competitive group hydras are a must have.

Oscarius
22-03-2011, 08:29
Seems like someone re-invented the wheel. :D

Yes, the hydra is generally seen as very underpriced. It's simply too good for the points you pay for it.
BUT, you can still fit in 2 hydras and 2 bolt throwers into a 2,2k+ list, so you don't really need to choose...

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-03-2011, 08:37
That the Hydra is very good doesn't stop the Repeater Bolt Thrower from being one of the worst warmachines in the game for it's point cost. It's expensive, fragile and have a rather low damage output. Especially in a Dark Elf army where you have good anti-infantry firepower in abundance. It's a warmachine hampered by being insane in 4th edition, then getting doubled in price for 5th edition(fairly), but then getting much worse from 6th edition onwards, for no reduction in price. Now it's not so bad that you can't make good lists with them, but it's really not a well priced machine. You pay a whole lot of points for some dubious flexibility and reliability and doesn't get much hitting power in return. It's a better deal if you are a High Elf as there archers don't have the firepower of the RXBs but still, it's a machine that suffers from being in two books so it's really hard for GW to change it (apparently).

Scythe
22-03-2011, 08:43
Indeed, hydra's are quite underpriced, but as said, a single one is usually managable. Not a great fan of bolt throwers in the new edition though. For roughly the same price, you can get 10 crossbowelves, which take up about the same space in deployment with shooting in 2 ranks. I rather have the 20 S3 shots than the 6 S4 shots, honestly. Dropped bolt throwers shortly after 8th edition arrived, and I have not played a battle since were I missed them.

Chris_
22-03-2011, 08:47
No, you are not incorrent in thinking the Hydra is broken (for its points-cost).

cptcosmic
22-03-2011, 10:40
Hydra is manageable. the only problem is, the bolt throwers are too expensive and the hydra is too cheap.

venomx51
22-03-2011, 10:55
Hydra is manageable. the only problem is, the bolt throwers are too expensive and the hydra is too cheap.
And thus balance is achieved ;)

My regular opponent usually takes 2 of each. Hate the double hydra combo, but the bolt throwers are nice easy victory points, and just can't compete with 6 Spear Chukkas (3k+ games, so can take more than 2 of the same rare choice, which you can double when taking spear chukkas before anybody get's picky)...

Rosstifer
22-03-2011, 11:26
However, unlike Spear Chukka's they actually hit things (Grumbles about experiences with my Spear Chukkas....)

venomx51
22-03-2011, 11:28
However, unlike Spear Chukka's they actually hit things (Grumbles about experiences with my Spear Chukkas....)
Quoted for truth :)

Nothing winds up an opponent more than rolling more lucky 5's and 6's than you should have tho ;)

The bearded one
22-03-2011, 11:33
Although with the new book, nothing makes an opponent happier than a chukka gunline rolling a lot of 1's to hit and exploding in a shower of broken wood.

Rosstifer
22-03-2011, 11:37
Yeah, only played a single game with the new book, my opponent helpfully reminding me that all those 1's were now misfires....

The bearded one
22-03-2011, 12:08
Along with some maniacle laughter, I assume?

venomx51
22-03-2011, 12:40
Although with the new book, nothing makes an opponent happier than a chukka gunline rolling a lot of 1's to hit and exploding in a shower of broken wood.

Hey, as a masochistic Orc general, as long as something blows up I'm quite happy :)

Rosstifer
22-03-2011, 12:44
Actually, he was annoyingly casual. "Hey, don't those poorly built pieces of crap misfire these days? Just sayin'".

sulla
22-03-2011, 20:21
Bolt throwers are an average choice in any army, especially when you compare them to the carnage a cannon can wreak. Elven bolt throwers are even worse though, you also pay extra for the near worthless ability to simulate a small crossbow unit. Vs 8th edition opponents, they are probably close to 50% overpriced in both elven books.

War hydras are underpriced. My opinion is they should probably cost about 210-220pts to create some internal pressure between them and chariots/small knight units. Right now they are no-brainers and I always include one in my list.

Scallat
23-03-2011, 03:14
Short answer: Yeah, the War Hydra is too cheap for what it does. it was in seventh and it's probably better again in 8th.

Also, yeah, bolt throwers are a smidge overpriced. The multi-shot doesn't pack substantially more killing power than you'll get out of 100 points of crossbow men (in many cases it's a lot less killing power - 20 shots goes a long way) and 100 points for a single S6 shot that most armies get for less than 50 points is staggeringly not worth it.

In seventh the bolt throwers were worth taking because it was the only reliable way to project S6 attacks at range and the Dark Elf list is not well equipped for taking down big things. In 8th with armies arriving in combat on average a turn earlier 100 points for a mediocre warmachine just doesn't cut the mustard.

I'd like to see Reaper and Repeater bolt throwers gain +1 BS when firing their single shot. That and get a smidge cheaper.

Comparing the effects of a bolt thrower fired at a Dragon to the effect of a cannon is really just laughable these days.