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View Full Version : Is this what 40k should be? (a codex creep question)



ArmyC
22-03-2011, 14:01
Just for fun, I looked at what it would take to kill an 8 man Nob Biker unit + Pain Boy. Assume I could manuever and bring all guns to bear, what would it take, with average die rolls.

I have played this list successfully at tournaments. Maybe it isn't the best match up, but this drill is just for consideration purposes.

So I took 500 points of Nobs with PB, on bikes, each armed differently to spread out wounds. It is very difficult to get any wounds on the pain boy due to T5 from the bikes.

Here is the list that shot. I need to line this up and take a picture.

Basically
2 Autarchs, 3 Wave Serpents w/ TL scatter lasers, 30 Dire Avengers, 3 Wave Serpents w/ TL Shuriken Cannon, 15 Fire Dragons, 6 War Walkers w/ scatter lasers, and 7 Warp Spiders.

I shot everything at the Nobs, and killed all of them except the Pain Boy.

So that is every gun from a 2000 point shooty list to kill 425 points of Nobs, because the Pain Boy was left standing.

Is this how 40k should be?

Jack of Blades
22-03-2011, 14:05
Perhaps trying to catch them in CC would go better? *shrug* worth a shot.

ColShaw
22-03-2011, 14:06
So... you're holding up the Ork Codex, with a widely-discredited unit, as an example of codex creep?

As a serious answer to your question, however:

If we had an Imperial Guardsman being shot, how many other Imperial Guardsmen does it take to kill him? Well, you'd need him to fail his armor save (2/3 chance), get wounded (1/2 chance), and get hit in the first place (1/2 chance), so we would expect to need 6 Guardsmen shooting at him. In other words, a 6-1 proportion would be expected in order to kill him. So, 400 points of IG Lasguns being shot at by other IG Lasguns would require an expected total of 2400 points to kill.

In other words, your example is, sad to say, nonsensical.

Erwos
22-03-2011, 14:11
Codex creep, and you use the Ork codex as your example? You're years late to that party... have you seen TWC, or even Paladins?

My Chaos army has the same problem. Simply put, yes, you're going to have to dump all of your firepower into them, or you're going to have to come up with a list with better firepower. I don't know the Eldar codex very well, so someone else will need to help you there.

FWIW, nobz bikers melt when I hit them with my 400 point squadron of LRBTs...

Odin
22-03-2011, 14:22
So... you're holding up the Ork Codex, with a widely-discredited unit, as an example of codex creep?

As a serious answer to your question, however:

If we had an Imperial Guardsman being shot, how many other Imperial Guardsmen does it take to kill him? Well, you'd need him to fail his armor save (2/3 chance), get wounded (1/2 chance), and get hit in the first place (1/2 chance), so we would expect to need 6 Guardsmen shooting at him. In other words, a 6-1 proportion would be expected in order to kill him. So, 400 points of IG Lasguns being shot at by other IG Lasguns would require an expected total of 2400 points to kill.

In other words, your example is, sad to say, nonsensical.


Quite. Does anyone actually want a game where 2000 pts of units can reliably destroy more than 500 pts worth of enemies in one round of shooting? There's enough accusations that whoever gets the first turn wins already. If you could kill 500 pts of Nobz bikers in one turn with only 500pts of models, the game would simply become a roll-off for first turn.

Bunnahabhain
22-03-2011, 14:22
Agreed. Complex multi wound units are a rock. Use the right tools on them, and they crumble.

Just hit them with anything S8+( 2+ wound, 4 + cover save), dead, so the FNP and wound allocation games go away.

Eldar should be able to avoid them, and focus their firepower where it can be better used. If you have fire dragons , or other massed S8, then you have a clear target for them.

A less subtle force, like Guard, tends to bring the right tools en masse. As noted, S8-10 pie plates make short work of them...

Ivellis
22-03-2011, 14:24
I would've thought Fire Dragons would absolutely murdered them, what with the instant death and all.

Zweischneid
22-03-2011, 14:32
Wiping a given 400+ pt. unit from the table in a single turn, no, a single phase, via shooting better require the investment of a multiple of that many points to pull off by the opposing (Eldar) player.

Narf
22-03-2011, 14:38
or the eldar player could have use fire prisms, 3 of them, firing the Str9 shot, yes the nobs get cover saves, but save each shot hots 4 nob, thats 12 hits, say 10 wounds, 5 saves, thats 5 dead nobz due to instant death, for about the same price as that unit.

Or give marines of any colour 3 vindicators, should have the same effect, and be about 200 pts cheaper.

if people use deathstars then yes it will take alot to take them down, but usually that means that they've spent alot of points on them, and dont have anything else left of that lethality.

For instance, my mate took 5 thunderwolves, and a thunderwolf lord, one round of combi plasma shots from a unit of WG left the lord, who then charges into a combat already underway, and whilst he killed 2 WG, i killed 5 GH and the lord ran, along with the GH.

In that instance 350pts of WG saw off 450+ pts of thunderwolves, and some GH, same codex, so cant be creep, must just be the right weapons for the job, and some luck

Memnos
22-03-2011, 14:42
I think maybe we misunderstand what the original poster is suggesting.

Can you clarify? Are you suggesting:

A) 2000 points of shooting should be able to kill 2000 points of the enemy in a single turn.

B) Ork Nobs are very tricky to deal with using older Codices, but newer ones can wipe them off the map

C) Some third thing I don't understand.

If you could, I'd appreciate clarification before I respond.

freddieyu
22-03-2011, 14:49
I think maybe we misunderstand what the original poster is suggesting.

Can you clarify? Are you suggesting:

A) 2000 points of shooting should be able to kill 2000 points of the enemy in a single turn.

B) Ork Nobs are very tricky to deal with using older Codices, but newer ones can wipe them off the map

C) Some third thing I don't understand.

If you could, I'd appreciate clarification before I respond.

Well, witchhunters are an older codex, but with exorcists abound those nobz bikerz will go kaput in a couple of rounds....

Sisters with flamers divinely guided will also put a world of hurt on them....but the best bet are the exorcists.....

Memnos
22-03-2011, 15:12
Well, witchhunters are an older codex, but with exorcists abound those nobz bikerz will go kaput in a couple of rounds....

Sisters with flamers divinely guided will also put a world of hurt on them....but the best bet are the exorcists.....

But we still don't know what the OP meant by their original post. ;)

If they were saying 'Codex creep is terrible. Look at how indestructible Nob Bikers are!', then the answer is 'Uh... The Ork Codex came out several years ago.'

If they were saying something else, then we might be arguing something he never intended to say.

Vepr
22-03-2011, 15:19
Someone should let GW know they accidentally codex creep'd the nids in the wrong direction... :p

ColShaw
22-03-2011, 15:32
George B McClellan, not one of the highest-regarded American Civil War generals, was nicknamed "The Virginia Creeper" during the 1862 Peninsula Campaign, due to his tendency to advance very slowly. One of the best puns in American military lore.

"Creep" can have many different meanings.

ArmyC
22-03-2011, 15:33
Thank you all for the many responses.

I didn't think the OP through very well. It was more of an observation and an open ended question to elicit thought and opinions. References to codex creep were not specifically where I was going and are misleading.

I know most are familiar with Nob Bikers. The example I cited there does not paint the whole picture. It would be nigh impossible to manuever to a position where I could bring my entire weaponry to bear. It is also true that the bikers will get me in close combat on turn 2. As fast as I am being Eldar it is very difficult to avoid the bikers.

So for me to deal with them, I can weaken them with whatever firepower I send their way, but basically, I have to feed them a unit every turn or two, to keep them from winning the game singlehandedly.

So...

Is this the way 40k should be?
Is there a problem with 5th edition rules?
Is this simply a bad match up?
Are Nob Bikers so much of an issue that, you have to augment your list to deal with them?

MasterDecoy
22-03-2011, 15:36
Is this the way 40k should be?
Is there a problem with 5th edition rules?
Is this simply a bad match up?
Are Nob Bikers so much of an issue that, you have to augment your list to deal with them?

Keeping in mind you didnt actually clarify yourself......

it seems about right
not really
probably
not in the slightest

Bunnahabhain
22-03-2011, 15:41
George B McClellan, not one of the highest-regarded American Civil War generals, was nicknamed "The Virginia Creeper" during the 1862 Peninsula Campaign, due to his tendency to advance very slowly. One of the best puns in American military lore.

"Creep" can have many different meanings.

On the other hand, some notably slow commanders- Viscount Montgomery of Alamein, for example- despite repeated criticism for their slowness, stuck to their guns, and did rather well with it.

Creep isn't a problem, so long as it is deliberate and headed in a positive direction, not round in round in random circles....

Ravenous
22-03-2011, 15:43
Look Nob bikerz arent an issue, seriously, they have been ultra hyped up on the internet that they are the be all and end all and they arent.

Ive run an enitre army of them and I can tell you every single codex can deal with them easily.

minionboy
22-03-2011, 15:48
Keep complaining about those knobs until you get a razorfang or leafblower list crawling up your backside.

Unforgiven
22-03-2011, 16:08
It's just one of those things that people read on the internet and are convinced will win them every game. Then once in a while, someone will bring a unit/model/whatever that just wipes them off the table and you realise that you've invested 500pts into 8 models. That's when a lovely old phrase about eggs and baskets comes to mind.

GrogDaTyrant
22-03-2011, 16:20
Yeah, I'll bite. Nob Bikes are stupidly over-the-top, and one of my biggest gripes about the codex I play.

But they can be dealt with, preferably with Insta-kill via Str 8+. Eldar tend to problems with a solid Ork army, but Nob Bikes aren't what should be feared by them (120+ Shoota boys w/ KFF Meks and Grots are much worse). OP, I recommend looking into more Str 8 weapons. Fire Prisms can put out a decent Str shot if they foucs. Firedragons iirc are all Str 8 shots. Brightlances... provided there aren't more pressing targets to worry about.

Another important thing to note about Nob Bikes, is that they can't go up floors in buildings. If you've got a squad on the 2nd floor of a building (or higher), they can never charge you. For that matter simply being in any cover at all ensures that every model charging through it has to take a dangerous terrain check.

As far as Codex Creep goes... yeah, previous posters are correct. There are far worse things for Eldar to have to deal with than Nob Bikes. TWC, Paladins, Jokaero in Chimeras (and lots of them), or IG "leafblower", etc.

Vaktathi
22-03-2011, 16:40
Look Nob bikerz arent an issue, seriously, they have been ultra hyped up on the internet that they are the be all and end all and they arent.

Ive run an enitre army of them and I can tell you every single codex can deal with them easily.

While every book has an answer to them, quite often it's in the form of something that wouldn't typically be found in an all comers army, or in other words requires tailoring a list.

That's the problem with Nob Bikers. If you have the right tools, then they *can* be fairly easy to knock off, but these tools often aren't really needed in the same quantity or at all against just about anything else, and thus are often underincluded for a general all comers army when facing Nob Bikers.

Nob Bikers tend to be an army that either wins very big or loses very big, generally dependent on the available ranged S8+ firepower in an enemy army. If the opponent doesn't have the ability to inflict crippling harm on the nobs in the first turn, maybe two, then they generally will lose. If they do, then the Nobz pack up by turn 4.

shin'keiro
22-03-2011, 16:50
Is this how 40k should be?

You're relying on shooting too much, shoot then charge to finish them off!

Ravenous
22-03-2011, 18:51
While every book has an answer to them, quite often it's in the form of something that wouldn't typically be found in an all comers army, or in other words requires tailoring a list.

That's the problem with Nob Bikers. If you have the right tools, then they *can* be fairly easy to knock off, but these tools often aren't really needed in the same quantity or at all against just about anything else, and thus are often underincluded for a general all comers army when facing Nob Bikers.

Nob Bikers tend to be an army that either wins very big or loses very big, generally dependent on the available ranged S8+ firepower in an enemy army. If the opponent doesn't have the ability to inflict crippling harm on the nobs in the first turn, maybe two, then they generally will lose. If they do, then the Nobz pack up by turn 4.

I disagree to a point, most of their counters are fairly common. The nicest way possible of saying it is that Nob bikerz beat down on bad generals/lists.

Dreads, Tankshock, S8/ap2 weapons, model targeters (mind war, Jaws), and heavy CC models/units (Ghaz, Meph, TH/SS termies) or other abilities (psyker battle squads). Every list should have some of these type of abilities otherwise its not really surprising.

More off if people have a hard time with Nob bikerz they might as well tap when they see the word "paladin" in a list. Those are far worse IMO, and a hell of lot easier to get.

andrewm9
22-03-2011, 21:31
On the other hand, my 400 point unit of Celestians and the Canoness an be nearly wiped out in one round of shooting from a single Battle Cannon which is noticably cheaper by about 250 points. Its happened to me before. I lost my ride in one trun to las cannon fire then my Sisters got out and tried to make it into cover. The next trun of shooting saw every Celestian die to the Battel Cannone. The only reason my canoness survived is becuase she actulaly recieved an armor roll. Space Marines would have been obliterated.

MasterDecoy
22-03-2011, 22:15
6 tyranid warriors and a prime with twin boneswords and toxin sacs would make very shortwork of them and is about 100 points cheaper.

Bonesword warriors are a staple of all my nid lists.

Aluinn
22-03-2011, 22:29
Thank you all for the many responses.

I didn't think the OP through very well. It was more of an observation and an open ended question to elicit thought and opinions. References to codex creep were not specifically where I was going and are misleading.

I know most are familiar with Nob Bikers. The example I cited there does not paint the whole picture. It would be nigh impossible to manuever to a position where I could bring my entire weaponry to bear. It is also true that the bikers will get me in close combat on turn 2. As fast as I am being Eldar it is very difficult to avoid the bikers.

So for me to deal with them, I can weaken them with whatever firepower I send their way, but basically, I have to feed them a unit every turn or two, to keep them from winning the game singlehandedly.

So...

Is this the way 40k should be?
Is there a problem with 5th edition rules?
Is this simply a bad match up?
Are Nob Bikers so much of an issue that, you have to augment your list to deal with them?

If you play smart, you don't need to kill all the Nob Bikers, anyway. They can get into combat pretty quickly against some static lists, but if you keep moving away from them, they can hardly kill your entire army over the course of the game. They're engaging one unit per turn, and you can feed them sacrificial units if you have to. It's not as though they're somehow bringing destructive force to bear on all of your units at any given time.

And they do die, eventually, especially if shot at with any weapon which causes instant death (S8 or more). If they don't have a Warboss with them, there's a significant chance that they will fail a morale check, too.

Finally, remember that they can't climb to the second floor of a building, and thus any units in buildings with more than one floor might as well be invulnerable to them. (They can shoot, but of course they're utterly wasted if not able to get into combat.) Also, they have to take dangerous terrain checks when moving through terrain, so force them to do so if at all possible.

But, I will say that you have a point in that the wound allocation rules make them tougher than they ought to be, and I doubt the designers took that into account. I think they'd be absolutely fine if whole models truly had to be removed whenever possible, but they have their cheesy every-model-has-different-equipment workaround, and it is a little wonky. Still, they certainly do not ruin the game, even with that.

Spell_of_Destruction
22-03-2011, 22:44
Nob bikers aren't as difficult to deal with as some people claim, but no unit should be that hard to kill.

Deathstar units are not a positive component in 40k IMO.

Vaktathi
22-03-2011, 22:49
I disagree to a point, most of their counters are fairly common. The nicest way possible of saying it is that Nob bikerz beat down on bad generals/lists.

Dreads, Tankshock, S8/ap2 weapons, model targeters (mind war, Jaws), and heavy CC models/units (Ghaz, Meph, TH/SS termies) or other abilities (psyker battle squads). Every list should have some of these type of abilities otherwise its not really surprising. The key to defeating a Nob Biker list is crippling them in the first turn or two. The bikers honestly should have few problems with Dreads. A dread might kill one a turn on average, whereas with the 3-4 Powerklaws the Nobz are likely to have, they'll typically kill it in one turn. Many armies lack the ability to bring sufficient S8 firepower against them quickly enough to adequately thin them before the Bikers hit their line on turn 2.

I'm not saying the Nob Bikers are invincible, but they are an unreasonably difficult to deal with unit. Some armies won't have an issue, some that will generally perform very well against most other lists will have a problem however. I know my IG don't have any issues with nob bikers, but my CSM's for instance very much do (between two units of terminators, 4 squads of CSM's, and 6 Oblits, its difficult to bring to bear sufficient S8 weaponry early enough to make the difference).



More off if people have a hard time with Nob bikerz they might as well tap when they see the word "paladin" in a list. Those are far worse IMO, and a hell of lot easier to get.

How are the Paladins worse just out of curiosity? They lack the speed, turboboost cover save ability, and are generally easier to destroy with most weapons that would inflict ID on them than the Nobz are due to only having 5+ invul saves against shooting rather than constant 4+ cover. They also cost a whole lot more and require a hugely expensive HQ to make Troops.

MasterDecoy
22-03-2011, 22:49
Just remember, they where written in 4th ed, where there wasnt any wound allocation shinanigans. They might have been written with 5th in mind, but that is pure speculation

totgeboren
22-03-2011, 23:08
Yes, this is how 40k should be.

If 500 pts of mine could reliably kill 500 pts from your side in one turn, whoever gets to shoot first wins. A unit should be able to kill at best about a quarter of it's points in one turn, more likely about 1/6 of it's worth.

Otherwise there would be no point in playing.

GrogDaTyrant
22-03-2011, 23:31
More off if people have a hard time with Nob bikerz they might as well tap when they see the word "paladin" in a list. Those are far worse IMO, and a hell of lot easier to get.

I agree with Vaktathi.

Paladins are just a super-expensive "gimmick-unit". They lack the speed, but do have all the wound-allocation nonsense and even have a 2++ in CC as well.


The real 'Nob-Bike +1' is Thunderwolf Cavalry. With a 19"+ charge range, no fear of terrain, superior stats and higher instant death threshold, they are effectively worse to deal with in every possible way. And unless you're on a table that is completely devoid of terrain, they should have little problem bounding out from behind cover and slamming into something within 1 turn.

Like Nob Bikes, they're not impossible to deal with. But arguably less enjoyable to do so.

Lord Damocles
22-03-2011, 23:33
Is this the way 40k should be?
Your example actually seems to paint the Eldar in a pretty good light.


Is there a problem with 5th edition rules?
No.


Is this simply a bad match up?
Maybe.
Nobs are hard*. Maths shows Nobs are hard. Who'd'a'thunk'it!?


Are Nob Bikers so much of an issue that, you have to augment your list to deal with them?
Find some stairs, and then see how great Nob Bikers are.




*You have a filthy mind.

Rick Blaine
22-03-2011, 23:38
40k has a load of issues, but 2000 pts of Eldar only being able to kill 400 pts of Orks in one round of shooting ain't one.

Vaktathi
22-03-2011, 23:41
I agree with Vaktathi.

Paladins are just a super-expensive "gimmick-unit". They lack the speed, but do have all the wound-allocation nonsense and even have a 2++ in CC as well.


The real 'Nob-Bike +1' is Thunderwolf Cavalry. With a 19"+ charge range, no fear of terrain, superior stats and higher instant death threshold, they are effectively worse to deal with in every possible way. And unless you're on a table that is completely devoid of terrain, they should have little problem bounding out from behind cover and slamming into something within 1 turn.

Like Nob Bikes, they're not impossible to deal with. But arguably less enjoyable to do so.Indeed, the natural T5 of the TWC's, coupled with the ability to take 3++ saves (you don't need it on all of them, just a couple really) makes them a nightmare to deal with even when compared with Nob Bikers. That and they don't look as cool as the Ork Bikes :p Although they do have a harder time getting a guaranteed turn 2 charge at least.

Scaryscarymushroom
22-03-2011, 23:51
or IG "leafblower", etc.

What's a "leafblower?"

Nurgling Chieftain
22-03-2011, 23:54
EDIT: "Leafblower" is a general category of heavily mechanized Imperial Guard armies with lots of powerful shooting that function by blowing their opposition right off the table, closest to furthest. Won 'Ard Boyz last year, IIRC.

Thunderwolves also have a harder time getting FNP (I'm not even seeing one) and can usually be dakka'd down pretty easily for their overall points cost (given typically fielded units). On the other hand, they somehow get a base T5 (dumb dumb dumb IMO) so can soak up S8-9 wounds a lot easier.

Vaktathi
23-03-2011, 00:03
EDIT: "Leafblower" is a general category of heavily mechanized Imperial Guard armies with lots of powerful shooting that function by blowing their opposition right off the table, closest to furthest. Won 'Ard Boyz last year, IIRC.Well, that describes every IG army.

The actual "leafblower" was not as optimized as many think, and not fully mechanized IIRC, and won primarily through opponents deploying in exactly the way it wanted and getting first turn every time. Lots of allied INQ units, no Vendettas, and weird stuff like command squad medics and IG powerfists.

Worsle
23-03-2011, 00:09
What's a "leafblower?"

It is an ill defined term normally used by people complaining about guard or who think they are better at the game than they really are. It was named after an okish IG army that won hard boys after no one was smart enough to reserve against a player who got first turn every time. Really it is the kind of term that is used and has no real meaning.

Really none of these hammer units that come at the expense of the army as a whole should win against a competent player. Knowing how to stall units and feed them sacrifices whole you remember their supporting elements is something you need to learn. Nob bikers should not be scary if you have a good army and know what you are doing, if they do you need to worry about what part you are doing wrong.

Bestaltan
23-03-2011, 00:20
Dang, I can't imagine what the OP would think if he ran up against my roughly 20 nobz in battlewagons......... ;)

GrogDaTyrant
23-03-2011, 00:45
What's a "leafblower?"

Pretty much how the other's have answered it.

The original Leafblower did have a lot of luck in it's opponent's deployment, and did utilize Daemonhunter allies for Mystics and old DH codex Force Weaponry (iirc).

But the premise remains and can often be seen in much more... evolved IG builds. The notable features otherwise consisted of every unit being in a chimera (if it wasn't a vehicle), and every vehicle having a max AV rating of 12 (i.e. Hellhounds, Manticores, Hydras, etc.). The reason for the latter part, is so Lance weaponry gain no additional benefits against the list. They may still punch through AV 12 just fine, but points are being spent on AV 14 only to have that advantage negated.


What I meant by 'Leafblower' however was not the infamous original list as seen in 'Ard Boyz, but rather the evolved versions I've seen in my local gaming region. The core ingredients remain, as it's comprised of all mechanized units (in Chimera or Vendetta), with cheap AV 12 firepower taking up everything else. It's by no means a 'perfect list' or 'auto-win', but it is still a metric crap-tonne of expendable firepower in mechanized form. Against many balanced or 'meta' armies, it tends to perform quite well and has been the target for grumbling about the IG codex (from marine players, usually).

It also seems to be an IG list setup that more than a few Eldar players in this area have had problems against.

Worsle
23-03-2011, 00:53
What I meant by 'Leafblower' however was not the infamous original list as seen in 'Ard Boyz, but rather the evolved versions I've seen in my local gaming region. The core ingredients remain, as it's comprised of all mechanized units (in Chimera or Vendetta), with cheap AV 12 firepower taking up everything else. It's by no means a 'perfect list' or 'auto-win', but it is still a metric crap-tonne of expendable firepower in mechanized form. Against many balanced or 'meta' armies, it tends to perform quite well and has been the target for grumbling about the IG codex (from marine players, usually).

But that is just a mech guard army, the term leafblower in its self is meaningless. At least mech guard no matter how vague pr general tells you something about the army involved. It we are going to be buzzwording nonsense like this it should at least have a meaning behind it or a meaning that is better than a simple pre existing term. Its not like the idea of putting tanks into a guard army was a novel idea anyway.

It is only slightly less annoying thank tau players and their stupid suit names. No it is not cleaver, just say what you are using and be done with it.

Nurgling Chieftain
23-03-2011, 01:03
Slang happens. You don't have to use it.

Bestaltan
23-03-2011, 01:08
No it is not cleaver, just say what you are using and be done with it.

They are. "Fish of Doom" is just a lot simpler to say than "I'm taking 4 fire warrior squads with devilfish with following upgrades, backed up by 3 units of crisis battle suits with......."