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Spleen Hammer
22-03-2011, 15:20
Heyo,
While I'm waiting for the release of the new Necron Codex, I figured I'd fill out my somewhat dinky 'Nids force.

It's been awhile since I've played the 'nids and was curious as to what the current trends were for the big beasty kit-outs. When last I played, Nidzilla was still the name of the game and every monsterous creature had to have a big ol' shooty of some sort.
Is this still true? Or should I focus my big guys on CC and let the Hive Guard and Zoanthropes worry about enemy armor?

I ask this because I currently have a Carnifex in the mail as we speak and I eventually want to fill out the brood to a full three doods. But I see that they all have to be kitted out the same now and I don't want to put one together only to find out that it wasn't the optimal build.

So, how are you all kitting out your Carnifex's and to a lesser extent, your Hive Tyrants too?

Thanks
SH

Vepr
22-03-2011, 15:24
Heyo,
While I'm waiting for the release of the new Necron Codex, I figured I'd fill out my somewhat dinky 'Nids force.

It's been awhile since I've played the 'nids and was curious as to what the current trends were for the big beasty kit-outs. When last I played, Nidzilla was still the name of the game and every monsterous creature had to have a big ol' shooty of some sort.
Is this still true? Or should I focus my big guys on CC and let the Hive Guard and Zoanthropes worry about enemy armor?

I ask this because I currently have a Carnifex in the mail as we speak and I eventually want to fill out the brood to a full three doods. But I see that they all have to be kitted out the same now and I don't want to put one together only to find out that it wasn't the optimal build.

So, how are you all kitting out your Carnifex's and to a lesser extent, your Hive Tyrants too?

Thanks
SH

Not to many people are actually using the fex anymore but those that do seem to lean towards cheapest possible CC or dakkafex with twin linked devourers.

gitburna
22-03-2011, 15:30
hardcore nids players will say things like "Throw it away/leave it on the shelf/convert it into a tervigon" or some other thing, if you want to be competitive.

While it's true that the (point) cost of a carnifex skyrocketted and that other newer figures eclipse them somewhat, i still like to use one or three of the blighters every game i play the nids. Its taken a while and I have had to get used to the subteties of using them (and change their weapons to get the right blend for the army) but I am pleased with the way they are working out - i use 3 of them plus a Mawloc, and two hive tyrants. Once the Tervigon kit is released i'll add in one of those as well (and maybe a couple of spore pods too) to get me up to the Apocalypse sort of level..

madden
22-03-2011, 15:33
Mine are talons and bio plas with frag spines and adrenal if points allow, this only if spoding in otherwise no plasma nice hard hitting cc monster IF you can get it to the opponant.

theJ
22-03-2011, 15:34
Well, with a 3-monster unit, you're already being pretty darn costly. Adding a few points more shouldn't make all that much of a difference (IMO).
Personally, I'd go with whatever ends up being the most killy, short term. You're not gonna field 3 monsters to go pick daisies, after all...
The stranglethorn cannon looks tempting. High strength, many hits, pinning... land three of these babies on an enemy unit and it'll make quite a mess, even without a low AP...
Along the same terms, the heavy venom cannon is probably less useful, since that -1 on the damage chart should prevent it from doing any lasting damage to what it shoots at (which is a lot of points wasted for merely holding a tank in place...)

I should probably point out that I don't actually play 'nids though, so I could be talking nonsense here...

naloth
22-03-2011, 15:43
hardcore nids players will say things like "Throw it away/leave it on the shelf/convert it into a tervigon" or some other thing, if you want to be competitive.

That's just the logical conclusion since there are more point efficient choices for any role the 'fex can serve... Don't get me wrong, I'm a long time fan of the 'Fex but it got the shaft this edition. If you're playing against CC armies instead of shooty armies the 'Fex units are expensive but still useful. Against shooty armies (IG cmd or vet plasma, SW missile spam) they are toast.

Having said that, I would suggest running them with either just Bio-Plasma or dual MC Devourers. Keeping a Tervigon around to allow it to run and fire will also help. Adding a Prime will allow you to (ab)use wound allocation.

gitburna
22-03-2011, 15:50
The stranglethorn cannon looks tempting. High strength, many hits, pinning... land three of these babies on an enemy unit and it'll make quite a mess, even without a low AP...

This is true, the stranglethorn is great, backed up by a pair of Devourers.



Along the same terms, the heavy venom cannon is probably less useful, since that -1 on the damage chart should prevent it from doing any lasting damage to what it shoots at (which is a lot of points wasted for merely holding a tank in place...)

I originally had 3 carnifexes, a stranglethorn+devourer, a venom cannon and claws, and a devourer +Scytals. The stranglethorn was excellent for obliterating troops but I found that i was really struggling against vehicles, so i now have 2 carnifex with venom cannon and devourers, walking round with a tyrant with a venom cannon - the three cannons are grouped together so against a single vehicle they can *disable* it with a fair chance of success. As long as the tanks not shooting i generally don't mind - Its arguably better to get "may not shoot" than weapon destroyed or immobilised...

the third carnifex is now set up in the screamer killer role , having ditched the devourers. I give it Bioplasma instead (the shorter range makes it easier to decide between shooting and running)

Wade Wilson
22-03-2011, 16:40
A one trick pony is to give them x2 twin devourers and pod them in with a reserves nid list. Gets them plenty of rear armour shots on enemy mech and they should be close enough to charge the next turn. Alas a trygon prime can do almost the exact same thing for only a few points more points extra (carnie + x2 devourers + pod) and has more wounds, attacks, synapse etc...

Honestly...carnies arnt bad, they are definetly usable. the problem with them is they are overpriced. Say they were 120 points per model,i would probably use a brood of three of them in most of my armies, even just as a c/c footslogging unit to take enemy fire.
But as it stands they are 30-40 points overcosted and you can use trygons for 40 points more to do their job far better. it really is a shame, i loved carnifexes and the fluff they always brought with them. All armies used to fear them to varying degrees...now...well...

in higher point games (2500-3000)a brood of fexes led by a tyranid prime could be very very nasty (and pricy)guarenteed to take alot of enemy fire....but if that fire doesnt go for your tervigons, tyrant, hive guard, zoanthropes et al...could be worth it.

Spleen Hammer
22-03-2011, 17:28
So, Scything Talons and twin linked Devourers are the way to go?

I'm getting back into 40K rather tenitively, and I am unfamiliar with a lot of what has be posted, veracular-wise. I don't have a secret decoder ring, in other words...

Well, I might just go with all CC and call it good. This force will mostly be for looks and fluff. Everything I've read about the nids in this edition is DOOOOM! so I suppose I'll just do whatever suits my fancy. Which is, incidently, getting up into someone's grill, then curbstomping it. Then falcon punching their grandma...

Spleen Hammer
23-03-2011, 01:24
You know, the more I think about it, putting something other than giant fraggin' guns or crazy scythes of gore on a Carnifex seems rather weird. I've seen pics of a Carni with 2 sets of devourers and man, did it look wonky.

I'd like to buy the Seige Claws from FW, or whatever they're called, but they appear to take up both arm slots per side. Has anyone modded these to only take up one so you can put some scything talons on it also? That'd be diggity.

Threeshades
23-03-2011, 01:44
You know, the more I think about it, putting something other than giant fraggin' guns or crazy scythes of gore on a Carnifex seems rather weird. I've seen pics of a Carni with 2 sets of devourers and man, did it look wonky.


Preach it.

I think I would actually play one if I had an idea how to make it look good.

But I love fexes with close combat arrays. It's just way too pleasing to look at one of those guys with four scything talons or Scytals and crushing claws. I can't have them any other way but unfortunately it impacts the performance notably.

-Loki-
23-03-2011, 02:01
Carnifexes benefit from having a smaller profile - Trygons tower above everything. The only way to get them cover is with very tall terrain or another Trygon. That same terrain will hide a Carnifex completely.

I understand in a tournament environment you likely aren't going to get the best terrain (which always irks me - you should have a great selection of terrain in a tournament, but alas it's hard to get that much together) so hiding a Carnifex brood is not going to happen, and you'll want the tougher Trygons.

But playing on a personal table, there's no reason to not have a good selection of decent terrain, and any decent terrain is going to make hiding a Carnifex brood as it makes its way across the board a lot easier than even getting cover saves for a Trygon or two.

Spleen Hammer
23-03-2011, 02:05
Well, I guess I'll have to glean my Nids' gaming nourishment from "Style Points" instead of actual wins.

The more I think about it, the more I want to reanimate my old "Nidzilla" list from waaaay long ago. (Man, has it been that long?) It's just too pleasing to the eye to see that many huge monstrosities lumbering at you with malice in their eyes and frost in their hearts, ready to tear chunks of your soul away in nothing but close combat.

-Loki-
23-03-2011, 02:34
Nidzilla is harder to run now due to Carnifexes costing double what they used to and broods requiring all the same upgrades. Sure, you can take 6 Carnifexes like before, but they're going to be in 2 or 3 heavy support slots, have to have the same equipment and upgrades for the members of each brood, can't deploy individually and will cost you at least 960 points naked. That doesn't leave much room for upgrades, scoring units, synapse or HQ.

MidnightKid333
23-03-2011, 03:21
i use 2 sets of scything talons and the bio-plasma attack. the bio plasma is probably the only thing that got better in the new codex for carnifexes, you should always take it, and since it has short range, it only makes sense if you give him close combat weapons, carnifexes still have their strength and thats what theyre for. if youre gonna use this, assault tanks, obviously. if you come close enough to some powerfists, youll still have a bioplasma attack to soften them up, with the lost models from bio plasma, he might get a bad roll for his "to hit" roll, i just hope your carnifex is lucky.

as for hive tyrants, i almost never use mine, but when i do, i give him 2 sets of scything talons and wings. the HT isnt as strong as a carnifex, but CAN and MIGHT take care of itself against some powerfists. ill also give him one of the abilities, like old adversary, that ones probably the best. most people take the hive tyrant and just upgrade him with hive commander, its pretty useful for an all reserves army, since hive commander adds +1 to reserve rolls, as well as a single squad of outflanking troops.

so basically... no, monstrous creatures are not good with guns anymore, some people still have an attraction to the carnifex double brainleech devourers, i think theyre only good on a winged hive tyrant, which costs too many points :(
dam you, 60 point wings upgrade, you point sink!!

3 carnifexes are a good way to chew up your points as well. id suggest getting your soon to arrive carnifex a set of scything talons and bioplasma and hug the cover like a baby, or put the carnifex in a mycetic spore, if youve got the balls to do that :P. i know i dont!! i prefer footslogging, or not taking him at all, instead i just look at the beautiful paint job of my carnifex as he sits atop my tiny 18" TV, next to my winged hive tyrant.

TheMav80
23-03-2011, 03:26
A unit of two Carnis with twin linked devourers joined by a Prime with Lash Whip/Bonesword is a great unit.

I think many people are finding, that as great as a Trygon is, it is a huge target for which you will almost never get cover for.

-Loki-
23-03-2011, 03:32
as for hive tyrants, i almost never use mine, but when i do, i give him 2 sets of scything talons and wings. the HT isnt as strong as a carnifex, but CAN and MIGHT take care of itself against some powerfists. ill also give him one of the abilities, like old adversary, that ones probably the best. most people take the hive tyrant and just upgrade him with hive commander, its pretty useful for an all reserves army, since hive commander adds +1 to reserve rolls, as well as a single squad of outflanking troops.

Can I ask why you don't take the free lashwhip/bonesword upgrade? Seems like a waste, especially if you take old adversary.

Threeshades
23-03-2011, 04:13
Nidzilla armies play out quite differently from what they used to be. You dont have any Elite slots for monsters any more but all the more creatures to choose from in Heavy support. Tyrants and Fexes gained a lot of weight points wise but the tyrant definitely still pays off. The fex has a little more struggle.

What you can do now is fill troops slots with monsters, namely tervigons. I wouldnt recommend more than two though, as their main purpose is buffing. Handing out feel no pain to death star units (this actually gives an edge to carnifexes since one tervigon only gives FnP to one unit at a time, you can give it to up to 3 carnifexes (add a tyranid prime with toxin and double swords to the unit for super fun time) at once while trygons could only get it indiviually) as well as the effects of their own toxin sacs and adrenal glands to the surrounding termagants.

Fast attack now has the harpy, a very nice choice for tank-hunting. With stranglethorn cannons and cluster spines they dish out insane amounts of S 4 and 5 pie plates. And with their speed and their monstrous creature-ness as well as Vehicle close combat rules that always let you attack against rear armor value they can take anything down.

MidnightKid333
23-03-2011, 16:35
Can I ask why you don't take the free lashwhip/bonesword upgrade? Seems like a waste, especially if you take old adversary.

i took old adversary to benefit OTHER units, like genestealers and things. i wasnt taking it for the hive tyrant. if i was, then id probably give my hive tyrant 2 sets of brainleech devourers, a bonesword isnt very useful on a hive tyrant since hes a MC and has a high Initiative in the first place. Boneswords belong on shrikes and swarmlords, and sometimes the tyranid prime. an HQ choice should always have the ability to ignore someone elses armor saves. otherwise the HQ model is a laughing stock

Threeshades
23-03-2011, 16:53
i took old adversary to benefit OTHER units, like genestealers and things. i wasnt taking it for the hive tyrant. if i was, then id probably give my hive tyrant 2 sets of brainleech devourers, a bonesword isnt very useful on a hive tyrant since hes a MC and has a high Initiative in the first place. Boneswords belong on shrikes and swarmlords, and sometimes the tyranid prime. an HQ choice should always have the ability to ignore someone elses armor saves. otherwise the HQ model is a laughing stock

The old adversary rule applies to both the tyrants and all units in range at the same time, so lashwhip/bonesword does have more effect than 2x scytals without extra cost.

MidnightKid333
23-03-2011, 16:57
Fast attack now has the harpy, a very nice choice for tank-hunting. With stranglethorn cannons and cluster spines they dish out insane amounts of S 4 and 5 pie plates.

i wouldnt consider a S6 AP5 large blast and a S5 AP- large blast to be an insane amount.
and btw the stranglethorn cannon is S6 not S4, the basic barbed strangler is S4. i would take the harpy in my lists if he had 2 stranglethron cannons rather than 1 twin linked stranglethorn cannon. the harpy isnt even that great anyway, i dont know why so many people like him. hes only worth taking since hes a MC with free wings, which, i agree is great for tank killing, but a 12 inch moving 160 point monstrous creature that shoots out blast weapons is definitely high on the "things-to-kill-first" list, and with his T5 and a 4+ save, its not helping his chances. an MC like the harpy could fall from a few heavy bolter shots and youre planning on running him up to a tank. harpies only have 2 base attacks and dont have any way of rerolling hits. i can see how 12 inches movement is a threat to tanks, but 3 attacks on the charge with S5 isnt going to look very menacing, especially if the tank moved 12 inches. even with the MC bonus youll still have a tough time getting a penetration.

if the harpy has 1 wound left or something, he could go on a suicide run in an attempt to kill a tank i suppose. he just seems too fragile to be tank hunting. its a bit of a disappointment too since msot harpies are being modeled like a trygon with huge wings, youd think a huge flying monster would have a higher strength and toughness than 5, a broodlord has S and T 5 and has tiny compared to a harpy. tank killing is up to hive guard, zoanthropes and anything in the heavy support section except biovores. in my opinion, harpies are good for killing mass infantry and being a distraction, as MCs (or anything) with wings seems to be in 5th edition tyranids.

fortunately a harpy is not a unique character so take two or three if you want and keep them back and blast the infantry with stranglethorn cannons, seems like a plan.

Threeshades
23-03-2011, 17:07
i wouldnt consider a S6 AP5 large blast and a S5 AP- large blast to be an insane amount.
and btw the stranglethorn cannon is S6 not S4, the basic barbed strangler is S4. i would take the harpy in my lists if he had 2 stranglethron cannons rather than 1 twin linked stranglethorn cannon.

I did not explicitly mention the spore mine cysts since they are unchangable equipment anyway.

Yeah thats usually just 2 blasts, but when the cysts are used you can get up to 5 in one turn.

Ozendorph
23-03-2011, 18:08
Unfortunately I don't see the Carnifexes much these days, even in friendly games. It's not as though they're useless, but their point cost is a bit out of control. I like the idea of running them screamer-killer style...taking a brood like that would be fun, at least in Apoc.

Btw, my brother runs a winged Tyrant with Old Adversary, LW/BS, and devourers (and that farking Paroxysm). He keeps it with a large brood of gargoyles and gets good results.

Threeshades
24-03-2011, 17:34
Unfortunately I don't see the Carnifexes much these days, even in friendly games. It's not as though they're useless, but their point cost is a bit out of control. I like the idea of running them screamer-killer style...taking a brood like that would be fun, at least in Apoc.


In apoc broods are kinda obsolete because of the lack of FOC. So you can take them as three independent choices there.

Stealin' Genes
24-03-2011, 18:02
There's a pretty fun Apoc formation for 'fexes, you take a bunch of them with bioplasma and they can combine it into a giant S7 AP2 plasma barf that uses the huge flamer template. Pretty awesome the one time I tried it.

I still use 'fexes, mostly out of nostalgia. I've got a pair of screamer killers that usually work alright for me. I also maintain that despite their overcostedness they do have a couple of strengths that often go unmentioned. To wit:

Bio-plasma's nice. It's short ranged but it'll really mess up power armored units or 2+ saves. Given how little AP 2 or less we have, having a couple of guys that vomit plasma cannon shots (and don't need to pass a psychic test or worry about hoods or runes or whatever) can be a handy addition to your toolbox.

Carnifexes that actually get to swing kill things very very dead. They ID T4 characters and multiwound infantry, and -will- kill tanks even if you roll horribly for penetration (and I do, so often. My Tyrant routinely assaults rear armor 10 things and succeeds only in leaving tyrant shaped dents). When that Land Raider absolutely, positively has to die this turn, a Fex can make it happen.

Like I said, I field mine fairly often. The model looks sweet when done up with two sets of talons, and they're fun and characterful. Plus, mine just seem lucky; when I field them they have this wierd knack for living up to their fluff of being unstoppable murder machines. I've seen them get rear armor bioplasma shots on a battlewagon full of meganobz, wreck it, and then pile into the Nobz and own them.

I've seen one on its last wound ID Vulkan, blow up the LR Vulkan was riding in, survive being lit up by the whole left side of the board, and then barrel into a unit of sterngarde and start tearing them to pieces.