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MikeyB
22-03-2011, 20:54
Right here is my problem.

I'd like to start an Army, namely High Elves, but my mates are saying they wont play me because they think they're broken as all hell.

Now obviously I'd like to play the army of my choice but i also don't want to play a broken army.

Are they right? If not what can i say to convince them they're wrong?

Especially vehement about it is a Dark Elf player. He says my elite troops are way better than his. i dont have enough knowledge about it to argue back really.

Help?

bluemage
22-03-2011, 21:05
High elves aren't remotely broken in 8th. Its just that they typically get to reroll their missed attacks in every round of combat and the dark elf player sounds jelous. Ask them to explain why they think a 15 point t3 5+ save model is broken.

Start them anyways and offer to tone down your list if its overpowered. But really your mates out to go to a tournament, where they'll discover what a broken army really is.

Malorian
22-03-2011, 21:06
Play a proxy game with him.

He can have a bunch of 'broken' swordmasters and you can have a bunch of repeater crossbowmen.

Actually, you might not need to play that one out as I think the result is obvious...

Jimmy Invictus
22-03-2011, 21:29
MikeyB. Your friend is a tool. HElves are not broken; the only reason anyone could reasonably object to Helves is Teclis, and frankly I find him pretty easy to take him out.

I think, besides a few legitimate instances, that the term "broken" gets used when someone is scared to play an army or has experienced challenges against certain armies. When I first started playing Empire, I got my butt kicked by almost everyone...and through that experience I learned my army. That doesnt mean everyone I played had a broken army.

Tell your friend hes being a poor Dark Elf general if hes afraid of a bunch of HElves!

TheWarmaster
22-03-2011, 21:50
Tell him to take lots of str4+ shooting and ask him again. I think DE have repeater crossbows and repeater bolt throwers?

Bloody Nunchucks
22-03-2011, 21:51
the high elves are not broken in any way, there are lots of ways to beat them.

tell your friends that with the new rules even if your swordmasters kill a guy with each attack they have (21 with most units of 7x3) that their hordes will still be able to wipe them out. or ask to play a proxy as stated above, where you DE friend gets some elite and you get lowly core missile troops.

as long as you dont play teclis in friendly games you shouldnt have a problem, if you do your friends are just scared of playing a different army or are exxagerating whatever rumour they hear online

Okuto
22-03-2011, 22:06
as long as you dont play magic heavy....my green tide orcs got stomped yesterday by massed magic....though then again I only took two caddies so I wasn't do well off magic defense wise.

It was very embarrassing for my 100 orc boy mob(shamelessy stole the idea from Malorian except didn't want to do it with weedy gobbos) to get blasted to death and then roll crap to get them run down by seaguard......easy pickings I thought

Knifeparty
22-03-2011, 22:16
High Elves are a very good army this edition. It mostly has to do with their ASF and the combination of life magic. Have you ever seen toughness 7 regenerating sword masters? I have, they make even Chaos Chosen cry. Tears for Isha!

Teclis is almost an auto-win against certain opponents who don't know how to deal with him. Teclis is broken, DO NOT TAKE HIM IF YOU WANT FRIENDS!

High elves used to be an easy match up for DE, but now DE actually have to think about what they are doing instead of just going to town. Take a well rounded list and I don't see why your DE friend would have a problem.

That being said, I just started a HE army. I got me 40 sea guard, 30 Sword masters, a mage, 20 elyrion reavers and 2 Gryphons for $150, sweet deal!

MikeyB
23-03-2011, 03:27
Cheers guys :) I dunno how convinced they are but we'll proxy them and see :)

Jimmy Invictus
23-03-2011, 03:42
Cheers guys :) I dunno how convinced they are but we'll proxy them and see :)

Good Luck, MikeyB...let us know how it goes! (and don't forge to check out the HE tactics threads over on the tactics board)

Cerraand
23-03-2011, 18:32
For having lost all my 8th games to date, I truly doubt they are broken. That said, I refuse to play special characters so maybe that's why... ;)

Jind_Singh
23-03-2011, 18:41
Pff -sadly what you need here is a new friend that isn't a complete tool! Dark Elves have been a broken army since 7th ed, and 8th hasn't softened them up ONE bit!

1) Cheap as dirt repeater crossbows - one of the most abused core units in the game
2) War Hydra - the most broken monster in the game as it's stupidly cheap for what it does.
3) Dark Elf magic - they can whip up a STORM of magic dice and smash people down
4) Dark Elf magic items - some of them are just plain silly

And so on, and so forth.

Besides, playing Dark Elves vs High Elves is one of the most classic line ups in Warhammer Fantasy Battle! As cool as playing Dwarf vs Orcs & Goblins, Empire vs Orcs & Goblins, Warriors of Chaos vs Empire, etc, as they are the fights at the center of Warhammer lore!

And as a point of fact - High Elves ARE NOT BROKEN! My Greenskins give them BIG trouble every time we clash and I don't have ASF with re-roll to hit in combat! (well I kinda do but I need spells to make it happen).

High Elves are just fine - tell your 'friend' that if he doesn't want to play interesting and challenging armies he can BUY YOU some models for another army - as you get a great deal by buying the starter set and trading the Skaven models for more High Elves!

20 Sea Guard
20 Sword Masters
10 Reavers
2 Griffins (ok so these might not get used much but look great!)
2 Wizards (Again you may only use one)

For what, $120 odd dollars? Telling me you get that much in a single battalion box?

And then adding that single battalion box means you got your self a GREAT army for dirt cheap (well by Warhammer standards, I play horde armies and $200 doesn't even get me started!).

Tell your friend to grow up, relax, and learn to have fun. While he's reeling from this go find more open minded gamers!

Johnny_H
23-03-2011, 19:51
I am a budding Dark Elf player, and its not uncommon for me to get my ass handed to me by anyone I play against. Learning your army is the biggest obstacle it seems with D.Elves. Sure we Druchii have loads of powerful units but if you can't deploy them, use them effectively or your chopped liver.

So your friend has nothing to complain about as far as High Elves are concerned, his generalship is likely at fault for his losses or fear of High Elves.

MikeyB
23-03-2011, 20:02
I appreciate the advice guys but can we stop insulting my friends please? :p

Ok so we ran the numbers and he's agreed they may not be as bad as first thought.

SO!

Here's your next challenge:

I have an Isle of Blood and a Helf battalion
You have 1500 points (or 1000 if 1500 is to easy :p) to make an army that can stand a chance against Delfs, Skaven and Tomb Kings.

Go!:D

rob_appo
23-03-2011, 20:03
As a dark elf player i dont think you can complain about high elves to much when for 320 points we can get 60 shots that you can combine with shadow magic that would make a real mess of most lightly armourd high points cost high elf things.

Malorian
23-03-2011, 20:04
I appreciate the advice guys but can we stop insulting my friends please? :p

Ok so we ran the numebers and he's agreed they may not be as bad as first thought.

SO!

Here's your next challenge:

I have an Isle of Blood and a Helf battalion
You have 1500 points (or 1000 if 1500 is to easy :p) to make an army that can stand a chance against Delfs, Skaven and Tomb Kings.

Go!:D

Hurray! Vindication! :D


Just a note, you might want to start with a 'weak' list first and then go from there.

Wouldn't look right to show how HE aren't broken and then crush him in your first game ;)


Edit: So at this point I would make your own list and then just come back to us if you are having trouble.

Jimmy Invictus
23-03-2011, 20:26
I appreciate the advice guys but can we stop insulting my friends please? :p

Ok so we ran the numbers and he's agreed they may not be as bad as first thought.

SO!

Here's your next challenge:

I have an Isle of Blood and a Helf battalion
You have 1500 points (or 1000 if 1500 is to easy :p) to make an army that can stand a chance against Delfs, Skaven and Tomb Kings.

Go!:D

MikeyB, no worries! Good-natured trash talking is part of the fun of the game, but no serious insults to your friends were intended....and props for sticking up for your buds!

Laughing at yourself is a skill I would encourage in every gamer.:D

MikeyB
24-03-2011, 01:10
Np Jimmy just they do read Warseer as well ^_^

Is a block of 40 sea guard a dumb idea?

Malorian
24-03-2011, 02:21
Np Jimmy just they do read Warseer as well ^_^

Is a block of 40 sea guard a dumb idea?

Nope. In fact I think they would be better at 50 :D

You are putting them in horde formation right?

MikeyB
24-03-2011, 03:55
Yeah that's the plan I can do 50 stick a mage in there with them? Or leave him out on his own?

I figure against skaven and dark elves he'd end up as a pin cushion out on his own :S

But then naughty miscasts and it could go very wrong :(

Mewy
24-03-2011, 04:57
Tough call really. HElf elite troops may be better than Delf, but they're also more expensive. I feel high elves are more broken when built around Teclis, but on paper and on table are completely different things.

I've seen dark elves with mindrazor wipe boards with multiple S9 blackguard charges before.

A 30 horde unit of swordmasters can be deadly too.

Every army can field powerful units, I'm willing to bet your friends just don't want to change their army to deal with yours.

I think that Teclis needs a slight nerf in the powerdice generation or irresistable force department. He is now the most reliably powerful mage in the game and that should be reserved for either Slaan or Tzeentch mages/demons. I also think the ASF rule needs to change to rerolls to hit if your initiative is GREATER than theirs, not EQUAL to.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
24-03-2011, 05:07
I think everyone has covered most of the bases but here is a few things to consider if you want to convince your friends that HE aren't broken:

1) HE have a total of 3 core choices. All of which cost more than most core choices from other army books. HE will never outnumber the enemy on all but the rarest occasion (say against Ogres Kingdoms & Warriors of Chaos armies).

2) The average armor save for almost all High Elf troops are a 5+. With average toughness of 3 it relatively easy to wound high elves and once wounded they just as easily can fail their armor saves (even against average strength opponents). This applies to all core, most specials units, & warmachine crew.

3) The average strength for most troops are STR 3 (including elites). Which means even with ASF and re-rolls to hits you won't be wounding most of the time and the opponents will get their full armor saves all the time. The only truly dangerous units (in close combat) are the elites (specifically White Lions, Swordmasters, & Dragon Princes, in the latter's case abettedly in the turn they charged). Even then they are usually too expensive to field in mass numbers compared to most armies elites.

4) HE doesn't have fantastic War Machines (The RBTs are ok but doesn't compare to a cannon, stone thrower, or motar); Strong monsters as Troops, Rare, or Special choices (mounted monsters are sometimes cost prohibitive at lower points games); and our basic shooting is relatively weak compared to other armies (Even Dark Elves can outshoot HE).

5) Finally while HE is strong in magic were aren't the best magic army in the game (Dark Elves, Lizardmen, & Chaos are argueably better than HE are at using magic)

Any player worth their salt will exploit these weaknesses (but then again you can say the same for any army in the game).

MikeyB
24-03-2011, 17:58
ok so far:

Archmage Tarquin 225
Level 4 35
Magic items ??? 100

40 Lothern Seaguard 480
Shields 40
Music 5
Standard 10
Champion 10

7 Dragon Princes 210
Music 10
Standard 20
Champion 20

10 White Lions 165
Music 6
Standard 12
Champion 12

Lion Chariot 140

making 1500 spot on

But is it any good? Adn what to give the mage? Book of hoeth as good as it sounds? or are more smaller items a better plan?

Incidentally if a mod wants to move this to army lists that's cool since i imagine that's what this is going to degenerate into but i didn't think spamming threads about how i suck was needed ^_^

MikeyB
24-03-2011, 17:58
got another list with a prince and lvl 2 mage and only 5 Dragon princes

MikeyB
25-03-2011, 00:51
WEll I'l answer my own question. It sucks

I got totally destroyed by his Delfs. Wiped to a man for the cost of 3 crossbow men 5 harpies and 1 wound on his hydra.

Ironically he now thinks Delfs are broken ^_^ I tend to agree -.-

To be fair i shoulda had more magic protection and my rolls where abysmal but still O.o

Gen.RifulasDykes
25-03-2011, 04:41
Yea.. I can see how that would happen if you used the list you posted. While Horde Seaguard are very nice, without any proper support is worthless imo. A hydra could drive right up to that mass, burn them and then steadily naw on them in combat without you able to do much harm to it in return really... then you have the rest of their army to deal with. Imo i'd save that Horde for like 2k+ point games and go for more smaller units with supporting elites or such. But i'm not a HElf player so feel free to ignore me if some proper elfs tell you otherwise.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
25-03-2011, 07:02
WEll I'l answer my own question. It sucks

I got totally destroyed by his Delfs. Wiped to a man for the cost of 3 crossbow men 5 harpies and 1 wound on his hydra.

Ironically he now thinks Delfs are broken ^_^ I tend to agree -.-

To be fair i shoulda had more magic protection and my rolls where abysmal but still O.o

Ooiii... totally missed this yesterday. Yeah DE have very destructive magic phases if your not prepared for them. In addition stopping the Hydra takes more than numbers as you found to your displeasure.




Archmage Tarquin 225
Level 4 35
Magic items ??? 100

40 Lothern Seaguard 480
Shields 40
Music 5
Standard 10
Champion 10

7 Dragon Princes 210
Music 10
Standard 20
Champion 20

10 White Lions 165
Music 6
Standard 12
Champion 12

Lion Chariot 140


At 1500 pts. I normally try to get away with the bare minimum for core units then tool up the army from there. While 40 Seguard looks good on paper you have to measure what they can do vs. the opposition. You'll find even with 40 STR 3 attacks and up to 20 STR 3 shooting attacks won't do much against heavily armored, above average toughness troops and/or Elites.

Try playing your friend's DE army again with whatever changes he/she wants then try something like this if you have the figures or willing to proxy:

4th Lvl. Mage with Folariath’s Robe, Talisman of Saphery, & Silver Wand: 350 pts.
Noble Battle Standard Bearer with great weapon, Armor of Caledor, & Guardian Phoenix: 168 pts.
25 Lothern Seaguard with full command & kit equipped with the Lion Standard: 375 pts.
19 White Lions with Musician & Standard Bearer equipped with Banner of Eternal Flame: 313 pts.
5 Dragon Princes: 150 pts.
Lion Chariot: 140 pts.
Total: 1496 pts.

I would give the Archmage either Lore of Life (if you looking for more defensive magic & miscast protection), Lore of Light (if you're looking to stop his shooting attacks), Lore of Death (if you want to take out powerful monsters or characters), or High Magic (If you want a spell for about every situation).

For this particular force I'd suggest a strong right or left refused flank.

Place the Archmage & BSB in the unit of White Lions. This gives the unit a re-roll vs. break tests which is always steadfast (Highest Unmodified Ld in the unit). The Banner of Eternal Flame give the unit with a way to deal with the Hydra's Regeneration. Plus the White Lions gets a 3+ armor save vs shooting .

Keep the Lion Chariot nearby in the case of Multi-charges on big blocks of infantry. The extra combat resolution points they generate will be useful for breaking said units via impact hits. Avoid charging with the chariot to the front of any units to avoid supporting attacks.

The Lothern Sea Guard (LSG) should be used to anchor the HE line which allow the army to pivot off them while providing fire support for the army advance. I gave them the Lion Standard so they ignore fear & terror checks while in combat. Again they would be best suit to flank charge large units alongside the White Lions and/or Dragon Princes.

The Dragon Princes will be your outriders. Their targets will be the units of Crossbowmen or Sorceress Spearmen bunker units. Again endevor to hit the units in the flanks or rear to get a few extra bonuses where you can and time it so you'll multi-charge with your other units if possible. If taking on Crossbowmen and/or Reaper Bolt Throwers from their front arcs use forests to act as additional cover since the Banner of Ellryion allows you to charge right through such terrain without any penalty.

I hope that helps.

MikeyB
25-03-2011, 13:18
Wow awesoem cheers dude I certainly give it a shot :)

I can see its goign to take practice to get these guys right but I've been playing Eldar for....oh good god....16 years....:(....er yeah so hopefully some of that will pay off :)

Also we're looking at playing 2000 points as opposed to 1500 as that's what we usually go for in 40k only reason we did 1500 was to have as little proxying as possible

So what do i do with the extra 500? RBT? another mage? or 2? I can see so many things i just don't know which is best.

Ratbeast
25-03-2011, 14:02
Right here is my problem.

I'd like to start an Army, namely High Elves, but my mates are saying they wont play me because they think they're broken as all hell.

Now obviously I'd like to play the army of my choice but i also don't want to play a broken army.

Are they right? If not what can i say to convince them they're wrong?

Especially vehement about it is a Dark Elf player. He says my elite troops are way better than his. i dont have enough knowledge about it to argue back really.

Help?

Your mate is a tool!!!! dark elf elites are far cheaper, and just as, if not better then there high elf counter parts, thing is HE vs DE is all about match ups, if your DE player doesnt use his head of course he will get beat, not hard to pit higher or same initiative units against each other, thus removing HE rerolls and given the DE player the upper hand :) and lets not forget hydras :D

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
26-03-2011, 03:56
Wow awesoem cheers dude I certainly give it a shot :)

I can see its goign to take practice to get these guys right but I've been playing Eldar for....oh good god....16 years....:(....er yeah so hopefully some of that will pay off :)

Also we're looking at playing 2000 points as opposed to 1500 as that's what we usually go for in 40k only reason we did 1500 was to have as little proxying as possible

So what do i do with the extra 500? RBT? another mage? or 2? I can see so many things i just don't know which is best.

At 2000 pts. I'd suggest probably another Special choice (Swordmasters for more killing power or Phoenix Guard for a more durable mage bunker) and 2 Great Eagles. RBTs only if you're planning to play a more static defensive force (but I think as an Eldar Player, which I was one myself at one point, outmanuvering your opponents destroying the opposing force in sections would be perferable than waiting for them to come to you in hopes you can whittle down their numbers before they hit your lines).

Remember though that you'd have to adjust your core requirements first before adding more units.

dimetri1
26-03-2011, 20:55
Just play the army you want to play. That will help you enjoy the game. If your cry baby friends wont play against you I am sure you will find other opponents.