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GenerationTerrorist
23-03-2011, 00:29
Hi guys. Was doing a bit of thinking today (shock horror!) whilst bored during a Team Meeting at work. I was theorising on how I would alter the Marks in any potential new Warriors of Chaos Book. Yeah, I know it is going to be atleast 3 years away, but still....

I was also thinking about the Lore Attributes for the Lores of Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh.

Here is what I generally came up with, so feel free to add your own ideas or rip apart mine for the, potentially, overpowered crap that they are!

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MARKS OF THE CHAOS GODS

Khorne
- Any model with the Mark of Khorne has the Frenzy special rule. The model can never lose it's Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.
- Any unit with the Mark of Khorne adds 1 Dispel Dice per Magic Phase to the controlling player. This effect is not cumulative, so a Character with the Mark of Khorne inside a unit with the Mark of Khorne does not add an additional Dispel Dice. If a Character with the Mark of Khorne is in a unit without the Mark of Khorne, this rule has no effect.
- Characters with the Mark of Khorne gain Magic Resistance (2).
- Any army with a Character bearing the Mark of Khorne as it's General may not include any Sorcerers.

Tzeentch
- Any model with the Mark of Tzeentch gains +1 to it's Ward Save. This is cumulative with a Ward Save of any other source. For example, a Character with the Mark of Tzeentch carrying the Talisman of Protection would receive a 5+ Ward Save, rather than the usual 6+.
- Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch add +1 to their Casting and Dispel rolls.
- Sorcerer Lords with the Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single D6, belonging to either themselves or their opponent, in each Magic Phase.
- Characters with the Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single failed Armour/Ward Save each player turn. If this re-roll is also unsucessful, the model suffers an additional D6 Wounds with no Save of any kind permitted.

Nurgle
- Any model with the Mark of Nurgle causes enemies to be at -1 to hit in both Close Combat and from Shooting.
- Any Character with the Mark of Nurgle gains the Regeneration (5+) rule.
- Any model with the Mark of Nurgle is immune to Poisoned Attacks, which must roll to wound as normal.

Slaanesh
- Any model with the Mark of Slaanesh is Immune to Psychology.
- Any model with the Mark of Slaanesh gains the Always Strikes First rule.
- Characters with the Mark of Slaanesh may make an additional attack for every unsaved wound caused in Close Combat. This rule only applies to the initial attacks made and not attacks that are made as a result of this attribute.

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LORE ATTRIBUTES

Lore of Tzeentch

Wind of Change
Masters of Sorcery, Mutation and Madness, the victims of the devotees of the Great Schemer are often kept alive in a perpetual state of insanity. It is their fate to now do Tzeentch's bidding.

For every 9 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers from spells from the Lore of Tzeentch in each magic phase, place a Chaos Spawn model in contact with the rear of the affected unit. This model follows all the rules for Chaos Spawn (see page 57) and has the Mark of Tzeentch.

The newly created Spawn counts as having charged (this represents the unit's stunned shock at seeing the fate of their comrades) the unit from the rear, and will begin attacking in the next Close Combat Phase.

This rule does not apply to Monstrous Beasts, lone Monsters, Characters riding Monsters or lone Characters.

In addition, the Sorcerer who's spell enabled the creation of the Chaos Spawn gains an additional 2 Power Dice with immediate effect.

Lore of Nurgle

Plague Wind
Foul poxes and other terrible woes befall the victims of Nurgle's experiments in the Mortal Realm, weakening his foes yet, at the same time, strengthening his allies.

For every 7 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers from spells from the Lore of Nurgle, the target unit loses 1 from it's Strength and Toughness attributes for the rest of the game. If either of these two attributes reaches zero, the unit crumbles to dust as plague overwhelms them.

If a single Sorcerer causes 7 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts from spells from the Lore of Nurgle in each magic phase, the model gains 1 to it's Strength and Toughness attributes for the rest of the game, as well as regaining a single lost wound (if any) from earlier in the game, up to (but not exceeding) the number of Wounds that it started the battle with. The model also has it's Regeneration (5+) improved to Regeneration (3+) for the rest of the game, and any unit he is with gains the Poisoned Attacks (5+) rule.

Lore of Slaanesh

Emotional Excess
The followers of the Pleasure God are driven to even further heights of carnal abandon, whilst those who stand against him become dim witted and slow of both foot and mind.

If a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers 6 wounds from spells from the Lore of Slaanesh in a single magic phase, the unit loses 1 from it's Initiative and Leadership attributes for the rest of the game. The unit also loses the Always Strikes First rule (if it had it) and gains the Always Strikes Last rule. This is not cumulative.

In addition, if a single Sorcerer causes 6 wounds on a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts from spells from the Lore of Slaanesh in a single magic phase, the caster (and any unit he is with), or a friendly unit bearing the Mark of Slaanesh within 24", add +2 to their Initiative, become bestowed with Armour Piercing weapons, and gain the Unbreakable special rule for the rest of the game.

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Those are my general ideas for what I would LIKE to see in any future Warriors of Chaos book, so I hereby open the floor for debate :-)

Cheers,
GT

Korraz
23-03-2011, 00:41
And you multiply the costs by what factor?

Malorian
23-03-2011, 00:42
I don't like the free khorne dice. Just makes them abusable like dwarfs, deamons, and empire.

Would rather see a rule like: If the majority of the markable units in an army have the mark of khorne then the army gets an additional 2 dispel dice.

vinny t
23-03-2011, 00:52
Wow...well let me be the first to say these are extreamly powerful. Lets just go down the list.


MARKS OF THE CHAOS GODS

Khorne
- Any model with the Mark of Khorne has the Frenzy special rule. The model can never lose it's Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.
Like it, good and fluffy
- Any unit with the Mark of Khorne adds 1 Dispel Dice per Magic Phase to the controlling player. This effect is not cumulative, so a Character with the Mark of Khorne inside a unit with the Mark of Khorne does not add an additional Dispel Dice. If a Character with the Mark of Khorne is in a unit without the Mark of Khorne, this rule has no effect.
Slightly unclear, why would you ever take a character with MoK becaus of this rule?
- Characters with the Mark of Khorne gain Magic Resistance (2).
- Any army with a Character bearing the Mark of Khorne as it's General may not include any Sorcerers.
Like these two a lot.
Tzeentch
- Any model with the Mark of Tzeentch gains +1 to it's Ward Save. This is cumulative with a Ward Save of any other source. For example, a Character with the Mark of Tzeentch carrying the Talisman of Protection would receive a 5+ Ward Save, rather than the usual 6+.
Probably make it a maximum Ward save of 4+. I hate 3+ Ward save Chaos Lords.
- Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch add +1 to their Casting and Dispel rolls.
- Sorcerer Lords with the Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single D6, belonging to either themselves or their opponent, in each Magic Phase.
I think using either one or the other of these rules could be good. Probably make the d6 reroll just for the player's magic phase.
- Characters with the Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single failed Armour/Ward Save each player turn. If this re-roll is also unsucessful, the model suffers an additional D6 Wounds with no Save of any kind permitted.
Love it
Nurgle
- Any model with the Mark of Nurgle causes enemies to be at -1 to hit in both Close Combat and from Shooting.
- Any Character with the Mark of Nurgle gains the Regeneration (5+) rule.
This might be a little too strong, Regen is really good and this would be crazy on a chosen deathstar. I think either Regen 6+ or no Regen at all
- Any model with the Mark of Nurgle is immune to Poisoned Attacks, which must roll to wound as normal.
Love the rest of these
Slaanesh
- Any model with the Mark of Slaanesh is Immune to Psychology.
- Any model with the Mark of Slaanesh gains the Always Strikes First rule.
- Characters with the Mark of Slaanesh may make an additional attack for every unsaved wound caused in Close Combat. This rule only applies to the initial attacks made and not attacks that are made as a result of this attribute.
These are all pretty nice, perhaps drop the last bit becasue MoS would have to be really expensive to cover all of that.
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LORE ATTRIBUTES

Lore of Tzeentch

Wind of Change
Masters of Sorcery, Mutation and Madness, the victims of the devotees of the Great Schemer are often kept alive in a perpetual state of insanity. It is their fate to now do Tzeentch's bidding.

For every 9 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers from spells from the Lore of Tzeentch in each magic phase, place a Chaos Spawn model in contact with the rear of the affected unit. This model follows all the rules for Chaos Spawn (see page 57) and has the Mark of Tzeentch.

The newly created Spawn counts as having charged (this represents the unit's stunned shock at seeing the fate of their comrades) the unit from the rear, and will begin attacking in the next Close Combat Phase.

This rule does not apply to Monstrous Beasts, lone Monsters, Characters riding Monsters or lone Characters.

In addition, the Sorcerer who's spell enabled the creation of the Chaos Spawn gains an additional 2 Power Dice with immediate effect.
Love this, drop the +2 PD though, unnecessary and too powerful
Lore of Nurgle

Plague Wind
Foul poxes and other terrible woes befall the victims of Nurgle's experiments in the Mortal Realm, weakening his foes yet, at the same time, strengthening his allies.

For every 7 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers from spells from the Lore of Nurgle, the target unit loses 1 from it's Strength and Toughness attributes for the rest of the game. If either of these two attributes reaches zero, the unit crumbles to dust as plague overwhelms them.

If a single Sorcerer causes 7 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts from spells from the Lore of Nurgle in each magic phase, the model gains 1 to it's Strength and Toughness attributes for the rest of the game, as well as regaining a single lost wound (if any) from earlier in the game, up to (but not exceeding) the number of Wounds that it started the battle with. The model also has it's Regeneration (5+) improved to Regeneration (3+) for the rest of the game, and any unit he is with gains the Poisoned Attacks (5+) rule.
Maybe instead of -1 S and T change it to -1 M and I to represent being "slimed up". Also get rid of the Regen boost but keep the poisoned attacks.
Lore of Slaanesh

Emotional Excess
The followers of the Pleasure God are driven to even further heights of carnal abandon, whilst those who stand against him become dim witted and slow of both foot and mind.

If a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers 6 wounds from spells from the Lore of Slaanesh in a single magic phase, the unit loses 1 from it's Initiative and Leadership attributes for the rest of the game. The unit also loses the Always Strikes First rule (if it had it) and gains the Always Strikes Last rule. This is not cumulative.
This is too good as well, instead have the unit suffer Stupidity for the rest of the game or a turn.
In addition, if a single Sorcerer causes 6 wounds on a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts from spells from the Lore of Slaanesh in a single magic phase, the caster (and any unit he is with), or a friendly unit bearing the Mark of Slaanesh within 24", add +2 to their Initiative, become bestowed with Armour Piercing weapons, and gain the Unbreakable special rule for the rest of the game.
Well this one is insanely good. Maybe just have it give the caster or a friendly charachter/champion within 12 inches AP attacks for a turn

You have some really good ideas!

xxRavenxx
23-03-2011, 00:52
These mark "reworkings" are supremely overpowered. You'd need to charge... 5+ extra points per model?

To address the khorne "hates magic" issue, I think a very simple adjustment to chaos sorcerers:

Alongside the other three marks, a mark of khorne on the sorcerer. The sorcerer no longer generates spells, and if the army contains no other wizards without the MoK, gains a bonus to dispelling. (This could be via additional DD, or a simple plus modifyer to dispelling).


But yes, otherwise, why do the marks even need reworking? MoS is slightly underpowered, but the other three are all solid, and possibly need to cost slightly more.

Malorian
23-03-2011, 00:56
But yes, otherwise, why do the marks even need reworking? MoS is slightly underpowered, but the other three are all solid, and possibly need to cost slightly more.

The point per unit concept was never made for units of 40+...

Going to point per model is definately the way to go and always fair.

theunwantedbeing
23-03-2011, 01:01
Should really be in rules development.

Khorne
needs to be something like......enemy mages within 18" of a unit with the mark of Khorne reduce their maximum number of casting dice they can use by 1. (cumulative)
Also grants Frenzy.

Tzeentch.
D6+2 re-rolls to be used whenever the heck they like during the game.
Character's can alter their rolls by +/-1 if they wish.

Nurgle.
-1 to hit in combat, -1 initituive(to a minimum of 1) for all models in base contact.
+1 wound for Characters

Slaanesh,
immune to psychology, auto-pass all leadership based tests(not break tests)
Character's, will not break from combat (even if their unit does)

Lore Attributes
Tzeentch
Strands of Fate- Each Spell Successfully cast, grants the bearer a re-roll untill the end of his turn with a +/-1 modifier.
Spells lore mostly as is. One that turns models into spawn would be nice though, makes for a fun Signature Spell.

Nurgle
Nurgles Rot - Spells hitting enemies will auto-wound on roll of a 6, ignoring all saves.
Spells deal mostly large numbers of hits at a low strength, using templates or affecting units/models in range.

Slaanesh
Succour of Chaos - Units hit by Spells from the lore of Slaanesh suffer from stupidity for the reminder of the game untill they fail a stupid test.
Lore mostly as is.

reddevil18
23-03-2011, 02:07
Im liking all these alot but they are a bit too powerful for the current costs im afraid :(
Tho id love to see my tzeench wizard adding free spawn :D

TMATK
23-03-2011, 02:33
Aren't WoC one of the top armies as is? Everything here seems to make them better...

Malorian
23-03-2011, 02:34
Aren't WoC one of the top armies as is? Everything here seems to make them better...

I would assume that with better rules would come higher cost.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
23-03-2011, 13:18
I like it.

I'll have my Khorne units led by Slaanesh heroes and Tzeentch sorcerers :p

-

Seriously, if you want to make WoC more interesting, you should think about making them more varied tactically, instead of just giving them more power. Then again, I'd love to playtest these rules vs. my halfpoint WS10, S10, T10 gnoblars ;)

BigbyWolf
23-03-2011, 14:21
I'd go with the old HoC rule for Tzeentch. No sorcerers but the ability to ad magic to fighty characters. I want my old Warrior-mages back!

Knifeparty
23-03-2011, 14:27
I'm thinking for mark of Tzeentch just give them D3 re-rolls per turn. That is huge especially on sorcerers. Re-roll for number of power dice, casting attempts, dispelling attempts, leadership, eye of the gods rolls, ward saves, armour saves, charge distances, hell they could even have a rule that allows them to re-roll for their spells at the beginning of the game.

Grim Tuesday
23-03-2011, 15:04
Some of the effects are quite complicated, but I do like the additional benefits for characters rather than blanket effect for all models of a single mark. For the lore attributes, I think the idea of incorporating the sacred numbers is good, but could be simplified so that if the number rolled on the winds of magic (either players turn) corresponds to that of the Generals mark, then additional benefits are granted. For instance:
'6' - Slaanesh.
Alluring Figures appear before practitioners of magic - distracting them from the matters at hand.
Any wizard without the mark of slaanesh wishing to cast/dispel magic must first pass an unmodified leadership test, or may not cast/dispel this phase.
'7' - Nurgle.
Putrid sores sprout from the bodies of wizards, causing them severe discomfort
Wizards without the mark of nurgle who fail to meet the casting value of any spell they cast must take a Toughness test or suffer a single wound with no armor save allowed.
'8' - Khorne.
A portion of the blood god's fury echoes across the battlefield, enhancing his followers ability to resist magic
All units comprising entirely of models with the mark of khorne gain MR(2), and characters of Khorne may dispel spells as if they were lvl 2 wizards.
'9' - Tzeentch
The winds of magic coalesce around Tzeentch's chosen - keeping tantalizingly out of reach of his enemies
Models with the mark of Tzeentch gain +1 to their channel attempts, while models without the mark of Teentch may not attempt to channel this phase.

So, if your general has mark of Khorne, and either player rolls an 8 on their 2D6, then the effects for Khorne are immediately applied for that phase. The slaanesh effects could not occur unless your general was slaaneshi, so you would only need to be on the look-out for a single result - rather than all 4. If your general has mark of chaos undivided, you get none of the effects.

logan054
23-03-2011, 15:06
You know I have thought about this so many times so here are my thoughts on it



Khorne
- Any model with the Mark of Khorne has the Frenzy special rule. The model can never lose it's Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.
- Any unit with the Mark of Khorne adds 1 Dispel Dice per Magic Phase to the controlling player. This effect is not cumulative, so a Character with the Mark of Khorne inside a unit with the Mark of Khorne does not add an additional Dispel Dice. If a Character with the Mark of Khorne is in a unit without the Mark of Khorne, this rule has no effect.
- Characters with the Mark of Khorne gain Magic Resistance (2).
- Any army with a Character bearing the Mark of Khorne as it's General may not include any Sorcerers.


Dispel dice generation is going yo be a issue, I think you have a number of ways to provide magic protection for khorne which don't have to be just using the Mark. Still for the Mark I would have Frenzy and MR 1/+1 as a armywide rule.

For Warshrines I would have it so they add +2 to dispel any attempt to dispel a enemy spell targetting a frienly unit within 12-18".


Tzeentch
- Any model with the Mark of Tzeentch gains +1 to it's Ward Save. This is cumulative with a Ward Save of any other source. For example, a Character with the Mark of Tzeentch carrying the Talisman of Protection would receive a 5+ Ward Save, rather than the usual 6+.
- Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch add +1 to their Casting and Dispel rolls.
- Sorcerer Lords with the Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single D6, belonging to either themselves or their opponent, in each Magic Phase.
- Characters with the Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll a single failed Armour/Ward Save each player turn. If this re-roll is also unsucessful, the model suffers an additional D6 Wounds with no Save of any kind permitted.

+1 wardsave is a terrible idea in 8th ed with all the common magic items, its just to easy to get a 3+ wardsave on your characters and Tzeentch warriors with HW&SH are nearly as bad as the 7th ed plague bearers. for me Tzeentch is the god of change, maybe have something to reflect this like a roll on the eye of the gods table at the start of the battle (but perhaps have it reroll 12). Keeping the +1 to caste is fine however it might be nice if they added +1 to dispel as well.


Nurgle
- Any model with the Mark of Nurgle causes enemies to be at -1 to hit in both Close Combat and from Shooting.
- Any Character with the Mark of Nurgle gains the Regeneration (5+) rule.
- Any model with the Mark of Nurgle is immune to Poisoned Attacks, which must roll to wound as normal.

Honestly I hate how Nurgle is now and I really think it needs some drastic changes, me I think all models causing fear and having poisoned attacks, models that already cause fear should cause terror.


Slaanesh
- Any model with the Mark of Slaanesh is Immune to Psychology.
- Any model with the Mark of Slaanesh gains the Always Strikes First rule.
- Characters with the Mark of Slaanesh may make an additional attack for every unsaved wound caused in Close Combat. This rule only applies to the initial attacks made and not attacks that are made as a result of this attribute.

Chaos warriors with ASF is just far to good, its bad enough with HE but Chaos warriors? it would be like having SM's core with +1T and a 3+ save, even better, have them striking in I order with great weapons...... imagine that with Slaanesh heroes, WS7 S7 I6 A4 or WS7 S6 A4 rerolling to hit and still 50pts of magic items, guess thats a 4+ wardsave then!

I think with slaanesh I would just have enemies in bsb -1ws and ITP.


LORE ATTRIBUTES

Lore of Tzeentch

Wind of Change
Masters of Sorcery, Mutation and Madness, the victims of the devotees of the Great Schemer are often kept alive in a perpetual state of insanity. It is their fate to now do Tzeentch's bidding.

For every 9 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers from spells from the Lore of Tzeentch in each magic phase, place a Chaos Spawn model in contact with the rear of the affected unit. This model follows all the rules for Chaos Spawn (see page 57) and has the Mark of Tzeentch.

The newly created Spawn counts as having charged (this represents the unit's stunned shock at seeing the fate of their comrades) the unit from the rear, and will begin attacking in the next Close Combat Phase.

This rule does not apply to Monstrous Beasts, lone Monsters, Characters riding Monsters or lone Characters.

In addition, the Sorcerer who's spell enabled the creation of the Chaos Spawn gains an additional 2 Power Dice with immediate effect.

Creating 55pts models that count as charging in the rear and gaining two powedice? I love Tzeentch as much as the next guy but that does seem a tad over the top. maybe something like if you successfully caste a spell roll a dice for every powerdice used, on a 6+ you add a dice to your powerdice pool.


Lore of Nurgle

Plague Wind
Foul poxes and other terrible woes befall the victims of Nurgle's experiments in the Mortal Realm, weakening his foes yet, at the same time, strengthening his allies.

For every 7 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers from spells from the Lore of Nurgle, the target unit loses 1 from it's Strength and Toughness attributes for the rest of the game. If either of these two attributes reaches zero, the unit crumbles to dust as plague overwhelms them.

If a single Sorcerer causes 7 wounds a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts from spells from the Lore of Nurgle in each magic phase, the model gains 1 to it's Strength and Toughness attributes for the rest of the game, as well as regaining a single lost wound (if any) from earlier in the game, up to (but not exceeding) the number of Wounds that it started the battle with. The model also has it's Regeneration (5+) improved to Regeneration (3+) for the rest of the game, and any unit he is with gains the Poisoned Attacks (5+) rule.

How about something more simple, maybe if you successfully cast against a target that isn't a daemon, monster or undead then they take a additional D6 hits that wound on a 5+ regardless of toughness and allow now save.


Lore of Slaanesh

Emotional Excess
The followers of the Pleasure God are driven to even further heights of carnal abandon, whilst those who stand against him become dim witted and slow of both foot and mind.

If a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts suffers 6 wounds from spells from the Lore of Slaanesh in a single magic phase, the unit loses 1 from it's Initiative and Leadership attributes for the rest of the game. The unit also loses the Always Strikes First rule (if it had it) and gains the Always Strikes Last rule. This is not cumulative.

In addition, if a single Sorcerer causes 6 wounds on a unit of Infantry, Cavalry, Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and Warbeasts from spells from the Lore of Slaanesh in a single magic phase, the caster (and any unit he is with), or a friendly unit bearing the Mark of Slaanesh within 24", add +2 to their Initiative, become bestowed with Armour Piercing weapons, and gain the Unbreakable special rule for the rest of the game.

How about any unit that suffers a wound from a slaanesh spell must take a leadership test or either take a panic test/-1 WS/BS for the remainder of the turn.

vcassano
23-03-2011, 15:41
To be honest, GW did a fairly decent job in keeping the marks simple and reflective of their marks. Well, Slaanesh probably needs some work in 8th, I suppose. What they failed to do was encourage characterful use of marks - now more than ever they seem to be mixed-and-matched for effectiveness rather than background reasons, which is a terrible shame. These have too many rules and/or are far, far too powerful.

Slaanesh is a difficult one - ASF is too much (we don't need another all-ASF army) but ITP is far less important. I Quite like logan's suggestion of -1WS but that needs to be differentiated further from Nurgle. Perhaps +1WS and +1 I?

Also, I agree that there needs to be Tzeentch warrior mages again!

logan054
23-03-2011, 16:01
-1 ws is based on a older slaanesh gift, if you noticed I suggested Poison and fear for nurgle so they would indeed be very different from nurgle :p

vcassano
23-03-2011, 21:57
-1 ws is based on a older slaanesh gift, if you noticed I suggested Poison and fear for nurgle so they would indeed be very different from nurgle :p

Yeah I did :D . I quite like that actually, way better than the whole 'we can't shoot you or hit you very well because you have poor personal hygiene' thing anyway.

GenerationTerrorist
23-03-2011, 23:18
Hi guys. I apologise if I posted this in the wrong forum section!

First of all, thanks for the feedback/suggestions on my ideas.

In retrospect, I think maybe I went a bit overboard with the power of the Marks/Lores.

The whole idea of making it points per model rather than unit seems a good one - I don't think GW expected people to rock up with 60 Great Weapon Khorne Marauders when they wrote the book!

xxRavenxx
24-03-2011, 00:20
For a change to MoS, attempting to keep it level with current marks. Would "stubborn" be an acceptable rule to add to units?

It feels like it might be a little too much, but it fits the theme well I think. The jaded and indulgent followers of Slaneesh are too wrapped up in what they're doing to be phased by losses in combat...

logan054
24-03-2011, 00:46
I think stubborn could be a problem on lone characters running into units laughing as it holds up a massive horde unit.


In retrospect, I think maybe I went a bit overboard with the power of the Marks/Lores.

The whole idea of making it points per model rather than unit seems a good one - I don't think GW expected people to rock up with 60 Great Weapon Khorne Marauders when they wrote the book!

You wouldn't be the first, did you see the DoC book GW released :p


Yeah I did :D . I quite like that actually, way better than the whole 'we can't shoot you or hit you very well because you have poor personal hygiene' thing anyway.

Yeah I never liked it either, I think truth be told rather than marks on units I would rather see khorne warriors as its own unit type perhaps being special but becoming core if you have a Khorne hero as your general.

sulla
24-03-2011, 06:06
Yeah I never liked it either, I think truth be told rather than marks on units I would rather see khorne warriors as its own unit type perhaps being special but becoming core if you have a Khorne hero as your general.Same here. You could easily go down the road of removing marks from rnf altogether, then adding in units like khorne berzerkers or slaaneshi painbringers (or nob-fondlers or whatever more appropriate name you desired) etc with characterful but balanced abilities. It would allow players to still make themed armies but cut out a lot of the abuse in the current book.

Personally, I'd like to see a lore of chaos as well as the god-specific lores too; for sorcerors who call on the power of all the chaos gods, great and small.

popisdead
24-03-2011, 17:59
Man I hope marking the units/characters costs 110-155 pts. Those are some Shockingly impressive buffs you gave. The Mark of Tzeentch for a Caster Lord should cost about 240 pts. Just the Mark alone. You are adding 30 to 60 pt abilities and stacking multiples on them.

Lordsaradain
24-03-2011, 18:23
Some good ideas, but most are very powerful, I'd say too powerful, and they would only be justified with huge points increases and that is not what I want for WoC, their models are expensive enough as it is.

Haravikk
24-03-2011, 21:20
Mark of Khorne:
Permanent Frenzy, but suffer -2 to leadership test to restrain charge.

Mark of Tzeentch:

Character's can alter their rolls by +/-1 if they wish.
Quite like this, maybe extend it to allow a unit with the mark to re-roll a single dice per turn; not very powerful for attacks, but can help with a flunked save or more importantly charge, purse, and leadership rolls.

Mark of Nurgle
Regeneration 5+

Mark of Slaanesh
Units are Immune to Psychology. Inflicts -1 to enemy leadership within 6" (non-cumulative), enemies that are Immune to Psychology are unaffected.


Lore of Tzeentch
May choose to roll an extra free D6 when casting and discard the lowest dice, unless a Miscast has occurred.

Lore of Nurgle
Cumulative +1 to cast against a unit that has already had Lore of Nurgle cast upon it (mark with counters/dice). So, if a unit has had four Lore of Nurgle spells successfully cast upon it without being dispelled, then the next spell will be a +4 to cast.

Lore of Slaanesh
If a spell targeted against an enemy is dispelled (but was successfully cast before dispel) then the unit must pass a leadership test or suffer the spell's effects anyway, using the weakest version of the spell if applicable.

Stonewyrm
24-03-2011, 22:39
I don't think marks should be made too powerful and should be changed to points per model. I fell in love with Slaanesh but find it hard to justify using anything other than Khorne or Tzeentch. My suggestions would be:

Khorne: same
Nurgle: 6+ Regen, Poison attacks
Tzeentch: same
Slaanesh: +2 Ini and +2 Movement

To me they would now seem to be balanced and have different functions.
Want offence? Khorne
Want off and def? Nurgle
Want defence? Tzeentch
Want speed? Slaanesh

Slaanesh could use a bit of tweeking. Maybe only +1 Move but ITP.

The idea would be that they would all cost about the same based on what kind of unit and the assumed model count. I would say:
Marauders: 1 pt/model
Warriors: 2 pts/model
Knights: 4 or 5 pts/model
This is just based on a mark costing 30 points divided by the "normal" (7th) unit size. Or about 1/8th to 1/6th of the models cost. It's just an estimate but seems balanced.

GodlessM
24-03-2011, 22:41
Some good ideas, but most are very powerful, I'd say too powerful, and they would only be justified with huge points increases and that is not what I want for WoC, their models are expensive enough as it is.

And this is exactly why I scoff at these sorts of threads; it's funny when players complain about GW's lack of balance in armies yet when the players try they make it even worse.

logan054
27-03-2011, 12:36
I always liked the idea of daemons worked, characters boosting units, no actual marks but units of each god, I think that could be the way to go but obvious not taking some of the extremes we saw with daemons (7th ed plague bearers spring to mind).

You could have things like plague zombies for nurgle marauders, you could try and make all the different gods chaos warriors have very different strengths and weakness, maybe Tzeentch warriors could have the champion upgrade to a sorcerer or the unit counts as a lvl1 sorcerer, Nurgle warrior could be like WS3 I3 but more resistant, Slaanesh warriors more nimble.

I guess in a way I would like within the book section for each god.

ariochhelldrake
27-03-2011, 12:50
I think Im with the different units for each God here rather than the Marks so Khorne Berserkers frenzied v.good in melee, Painbringers of Slannesh multiple low S attacks stupidity (also provides immune to psy), Tzeentch get the ward and a bound spell/ channeling ability, Nurgle get some kind of short ranged poison attack and are T5
Chaos knights could ride their Gods mount so Disc Riders of Tzeentch (units of), Steed of Slannesh Riders, Juggernaut Riders and slow but resilient Beast of Nurgle Riders.

tr1pod
27-03-2011, 19:05
I like the idea of WoC with Always Strike First. As it is, I do think High Elves dominate in close combat.

logan054
27-03-2011, 19:14
The only reason HE dominate in CC is because they ignore the interaction between great weapons and ASL, chaos warriors with halberds and ASF would be even worse than SM because they would be just as good in combat but more resistant.

Jack of Blades
27-03-2011, 19:35
Mark of Khorne
Confers Frenzy that can never be lost. Units with one or more models with the mark of Khorne in them add D3+1 to dispel hostile spells cast on them. Models with the mark of Khorne may not be wizards. Characters with the Mark of Khorne add D3 instead of 1 Attacks from Frenzy. (The D3 is to make Khornate characters actually good at what they're supposed to do - you should fear them in close combat).

Mark of Tzeentch
Each model in the army with this mark adds 1 dice to a pool which may only be used for re-rolls for your own models, characters add D3+1. These re-rolls cannot be used for things that concern the whole unit such as re-rolling magic resistance or charge distance, unless the unit contains a character with the mark of Tzeentch. Each re-roll dice can only be used once per game. A character with this mark who is not a wizard may also choose to become one at 30 points per magic level, up to level 2 for Heroes and 4 for Lords. Wizards with this mark also add an additional D3 to their casting totals.

Mark of Nurgle
All rolls to wound against models with the mark of Nurgle are at -1 to wound, they are also immune to poison which must roll to wound as normal. Characters with this mark also have +1 Wound.

Mark of Slaanesh
Models with the mark of Slaanesh have the Killing Blow special rule and are immune to Panic, Fear & Terror. Enemy units in base contact with one or more models with this mark suffer -1 Leadership. Characters with this mark also lower the Initiative of enemy models in base contact by half, rounding up.


That's my take on it, I wanted the marks to represent the fluff and not simply be a case of min-maxing various no-brainers depending on what unit it is. The marks would be priced per model, with varying prices for different units. You would not have a horde of sword-and-board Marauders with the mark of Slaanesh for a throwaway-sum.

Jack of Blades
27-03-2011, 19:44
Oh, and I'm still thinking about what the Mark of Chaos Undivided should be. Whether it should simply be the abscence of a mark, be a mark in itself or be a default mark that all units come with. I would like to make it its own mark but don't know what to make it do atm.

vcassano
27-03-2011, 20:07
They still are too powerful!

Khorne should be frenzy, most agree on that. It really shouldn't be infinite frenzy in my opinion because that is a really key part to the rule - it pressures you to keep winning combats. +D3 attacks should be a Khorne upgrade (They need to bring back gifts of chaos in a meaningful way, with god-specific ones), not as standard. Khorne characters (and chaos characters generally) are feared anyway. I do think there should be a means of dispel dice generation in an all-Khorne army because at the moment it encourages spell-caddies, which even with fluff-excuses.

Tzeentch is actually pretty good. It should be kept as simple as possible though - each Tzeentch marked unit or character generates 1 global re-roll, usable for to-hit/wound/save in any phase. I also like the warrior-mage approach - they shouldn't be allowed sorcerors in my opinion, a la Hordes of Chaos.

Nurgle is too much - -1 to wound is just too difficult, in my opinion. +1 Wounds for the characters is good and I like being immune to poison. Poisoned attacks with non-magical weaponry might be an interesting way of doing it..?

Slaanesh - crazy, crazy and crazy. Killing blow shouldn't be there at all. Psych protection is interesting and the -1 Ld is interesting too (Might be good vs. steadfast enemies, thus helping cavalry?). I also like the character augmentation - perhaps it should be that ASF does not apply or -1 I, or something?

Perhaps this character-unit synergy should be expanded to all marks;

Khorne - can't lose frenzy...?
Tzeentch - no idea
Nurgle - the effects of the current mark?

Jack of Blades
27-03-2011, 20:23
The problem with not having infinite frenzy is that it doesn't make sense fluff-wise. Why would a Khorne guy start running like a sissy just because his side is losing overall? Khorne characters are the guys that would stand defiant atop a pile of corpses with their amour cloaked underneath a .. wait, I said characters. That's it - characters have infinite Frenzy.

Yes, I was looking to keep it simple but still powerful. The thing is I want all marks to apply on an individual level. 2 units of 10 Tzeentch Warriors should not do more with their mark than a unit of 20 - it makes no sense. I think wizards should be allowed, don't see what sense it makes not to allow them to have the MoT.

The problem is that poisoned attacks is not a fluffy representation of Nurgle. Nurgle's thing is being tough to kill, not lethally hazardous to the enemy.

But then what? extra attacks is the realm of Khorne, indeed extra killyness is in general in the realm of Khorne. I wanted as little overlap between the marks as possible. Slaanesh kills in exquisite ways - hence Killing Blow. That ASF doesn't apply makes little sense fluff-wise - why would a high elf suddenly stop striking first while an Empire swordsman would be unaffected by the presence of one of Slaanesh's champions? I think that just psychology protection is too lame, Slaanesh needs something to help it in combat as well like the other marks which I've given it.

Remember once again that the marks would be costed per model, with different costs for different units. You would not, as I said, have a horde of sword-and-board Slaanesh Marauders for free - it will cost you, but the marks are indeed powerful.

Khorne butchers the enemy while being effective against magic, Tzeentch has mystical powers and is adept at magic, Nurgle is tough to hurt and kill, Slaanesh kills in exquisite ways and is removed from psychological concerns while also unsettling the enemy.

logan054
27-03-2011, 23:21
Mark of Khorne
Confers Frenzy that can never be lost. Units with one or more models with the mark of Khorne in them add D3+1 to dispel hostile spells cast on them. Models with the mark of Khorne may not be wizards. Characters with the Mark of Khorne add D3 instead of 1 Attacks from Frenzy. (The D3 is to make Khornate characters actually good at what they're supposed to do - you should fear them in close combat).

I really dislike the current image of Khorne warriors being crazy guys who just like chopping people heads off, I think I would be inclined to have it something like Hatred and MR1/+1 and then have characters with a rule much like wight blades.

If you want some sort of bonus to your dispel attempts then I think you should have to guy it some way, either as a upgrade for a warshrine or as a chaos gift.



Mark of Tzeentch
Each model in the army with this mark adds 1 dice to a pool which may only be used for re-rolls for your own models, characters add D3+1. These re-rolls cannot be used for things that concern the whole unit such as re-rolling magic resistance or charge distance, unless the unit contains a character with the mark of Tzeentch. Each re-roll dice can only be used once per game. A character with this mark who is not a wizard may also choose to become one at 30 points per magic level, up to level 2 for Heroes and 4 for Lords. Wizards with this mark also add an additional D3 to their casting totals.

So I take it you mean each unit rather model right, even so thinking of my Tzeentch list I would be getting 2D3+5, sounds a bit much to me, why do Tzeentch sorcerers need to add more than an extra 1? why D3, just seems over the top, me I would be happy with Tzeentch sorcerers just getting a extra +1 to cast and dispel attempts or even +1 to channel attempts.

Again if I was to keep marks I would rather they had a roll on the eye of the gods table at the start of game and concentrate on the lord of change aspect lke in 3rd ed.


Mark of Nurgle
All rolls to wound against models with the mark of Nurgle are at -1 to wound, they are also immune to poison which must roll to wound as normal. Characters with this mark also have +1 Wound.

Why not just make them T5? that would be a bit more balanced, even T5 nurgle warriors seem a bit OTT which Is why I think you should just have different units per god so you could alter other stats to counter balance this massive buff.

I don't know why the heroes need and extra wound as well as toughness either, I think it was more viable in hero hammer days.


Mark of Slaanesh
Models with the mark of Slaanesh have the Killing Blow special rule and are immune to Panic, Fear & Terror. Enemy units in base contact with one or more models with this mark suffer -1 Leadership. Characters with this mark also lower the Initiative of enemy models in base contact by half, rounding up.

If someone was to say Khorne units should have KB I could understand it, totally unbalanced on a unit of models with A2 I5 WS5 but I could see the logic behind it. Slaanesh really does not seem like the expert killing type. Hell even models in BSB being at half WS would make more sense and be less broken (I also believe that was one of the old rules for daemonettes).

Jack of Blades
27-03-2011, 23:54
I really dislike the current image of Khorne warriors being crazy guys who just like chopping people heads off, I think I would be inclined to have it something like Hatred and MR1/+1 and then have characters with a rule much like wight blades.

If you want some sort of bonus to your dispel attempts then I think you should have to guy it some way, either as a upgrade for a warshrine or as a chaos gift.


So I take it you mean each unit rather model right, even so thinking of my Tzeentch list I would be getting 2D3+5, sounds a bit much to me, why do Tzeentch sorcerers need to add more than an extra 1? why D3, just seems over the top, me I would be happy with Tzeentch sorcerers just getting a extra +1 to cast and dispel attempts or even +1 to channel attempts.

Again if I was to keep marks I would rather they had a roll on the eye of the gods table at the start of game and concentrate on the lord of change aspect lke in 3rd ed.



Why not just make them T5? that would be a bit more balanced, even T5 nurgle warriors seem a bit OTT which Is why I think you should just have different units per god so you could alter other stats to counter balance this massive buff.

I don't know why the heroes need and extra wound as well as toughness either, I think it was more viable in hero hammer days.



If someone was to say Khorne units should have KB I could understand it, totally unbalanced on a unit of models with A2 I5 WS5 but I could see the logic behind it. Slaanesh really does not seem like the expert killing type. Hell even models in BSB being at half WS would make more sense and be less broken (I also believe that was one of the old rules for daemonettes).


Mark of Khorne
Well you can try to be martial, but you will have to resist Khorne's influence in that case, it's just like the guy who turns to Chaos with good intentions eventually it will get to him. Your average Khornate follower Billy Head-chop isn't likely to be very martially concerned if you ask me, what with being the follower of a god of rage incarnate :p but I see where you're coming from. Still, it'd be too close to making it seem like a bargain with the Dark Gods is a good idea; I honestly prefer the ''with Chaos, everything is possible'' approach rather than ''BLOOD! MAGIC! OOZE! PERVERSITY!'' thing, but yeah... that's how GW rolls nowadays. Then again, a warrior who follows Khorne cannot be entirely in control of his bloodlust even if that was the approach they took, that's too close to making him into a simple Warrior-God. I was going to say there is no happy middle ground, but IIRC (haven't played in a long while) you test to refrain Frenzy (and if not, consider testing to refrain Frenzy as added to the mark).

The reason why I gave them + to dispel was to protect them against spells that ignore MR without needing to trick out something else to protect you. After all, why would a bunch of Khorne Warriors depend on some Warshrine for their protection? isn't it enough to be blessed by Khorne?

Mark of Tzeentch
I removed the text here, go ahead and check the new one out.

Mark of Nurgle
It's not a massive buff... this will cost you if you take it. You're not gonna slap a Mark of Nurgle on your Warriors just like that, it will cost you per model to do so and be varyingly expensive depending on what unit it is. Want your Warriors to be of Nurgle? better be ready to pay, but the effect will certainly be there. You gain more power in exchange for more points.

The characters get the extra wound because 1. I want to keep the theme of giving additional bonuses to characters 2. Nurgle is tough to kill, not hard to hit.

Mark of Slaanesh
Yes... this is one mark I actually agree with, too good. Honestly I don't know, I don't want Slaanesh to be just ''oh we're immune to psychology and cause a measly Leadership deductive to you'' or something. They need an edge over the other marks when it comes to combat, so that each mark is good for a particular combat situation (and don't bring up fear causers now). I will re-read the fluff for Slaanesh to better determine what to give them.


So let's sum up the marks again:

Mark of Khorne
Confers Frenzy. Units with one or more models with the mark of Khorne in them add D3 to dispel hostile spells cast on them. Models with the mark of Khorne may not be wizards. Characters with the Mark of Khorne add D3 instead of 1 Attacks from Frenzy and cannot lose their Frenzy.

Mark of Tzeentch
Each unit with the mark of Tzeentch has a pool of dice which they can use only on their own unit to re-roll failed rolls to hit, to wound, armour and ward saves with. The amount of dice is equal to the amount of models in the unit. Characters with the mark of Tzeentch get D3+1 dice. Characters cannot use a unit's dice and vice versa. Wizards with this mark have +1 to cast, characters that are not wizards with this mark may purchase magic levels for 30 points per level up to level 2 for Heroes and 4 for Lords.

Mark of Nurgle
All rolls to wound against models with the mark of Nurgle are at -1 to wound, they are also immune to poison which must roll to wound as normal. Characters with this mark also have +1 Wound.

Mark of Slaanesh
Models with the mark of Slaanesh are immune to Panic, Fear & Terror. Units in base contact with one or more models with the mark of Slaanesh suffer -1 Leadership. ??? Suggestions ???



Again... if you pay say 30 points for your mark of Nurgle on your Warriors now (cba checking), you will pay a kitted out Marauder's cost to mark each Warrior with this mark. I want to make the marks define the units, they will be powerful but expensive, not cheap min-max no-brainer tack-ons with a less than ideal relationship to the fluff. Don't get me wrong logan the last thing I want is to overpower an army but having such cheap marks as those that exist today is insufferable. I want every mark to make people **** themselves no matter what mark they get charged by, not go ''oh, my guys test at -1 LD if they lose... all right, bring it on''. But marked units are rare because they cost you out of your bleeding eyes.

To be honest I don't think Marauders should be markable either. To represent uber-Marauders that actually have marks, you'd give Warriors heavy armour by default (uber-Marauders) and let them upgrade into Chaos armour, which would take them to their current base cost. This because obviously, not every guy with a mark is going to be inside a suit of Chaos armour.


Ok, rambling over :D

Zoolander
28-03-2011, 00:46
I would simply like to see more cohesiveness and unity for the marks. In 6th, you would see all khorne armies, all nurgle armies, etc. Now, it's such a hodgepodge. The daemons books was written with this thought in mind. Notice that although you have khorne daemons and nurgle daemons working together, heralds from that mark are the only ones that can lead them. And powers they gain are fluffy and only for those with the correct "mark".

Currently, you see things such as nurgle warriors being lead by a khorne lord with a slaanesh pendant, and the eye of tzeentch. Really? Who decided this made any sense, because I'd like to beat him with a large salmon.

I liked 6th edition warriors better. They've lost their fluff.

P.S. - please fix the mark of slaanesh; it's crap

logan054
28-03-2011, 01:18
Mark of Khorne
Well you can try to be martial

I think people should concentrate on this far more than being the big angry god who likes really angry people because they are angry and chop things, dunno but at the moment they seem more like Orcs than chaos warriors.


The reason why I gave them + to dispel was to protect them against spells that ignore MR without needing to trick out something else to protect you. After all, why would a bunch of Khorne Warriors depend on some Warshrine for their protection? isn't it enough to be blessed by Khorne?

Why should a model that spends no points at all have on the average the same protection a lord level wizard provides (average of 3)? its just far to good. Still why would being a follower of Khorne make you immune to magic? in past editions (bar 6th) you had to buy items to protect you against magic, having a warshrine or a gift that can be bought to protect from magic also stops the mark from being overpowered, MR 1/+1 provides a little of protection and also gives you a reason to take items that provide MR (as they would stack).


I still think Khorne characters should have KB, KB is far more scary than D3 attacks and really shouldn't they be more designed around killing characters than chumping through basic troops?


Mark of Tzeentch
Each unit with the mark of Tzeentch has a pool of dice which they can use only on their own unit to re-roll failed rolls to hit, to wound, armour and ward saves with. The amount of dice is equal to the amount of models in the unit. Characters with the mark of Tzeentch get D3+1 dice. Characters cannot use a unit's dice and vice versa. Wizards with this mark have +1 to cast, characters that are not wizards with this mark may purchase magic levels for 30 points per level up to level 2 for Heroes and 4 for Lords.

Again not so keen on the who bucket load of rerolls, I actually like the fact you don't have warrior mages anymore, I would rather see rolls on a mutation/eye of the gods table for the mark, bring back the randomness to chaos.


Mark of Nurgle
All rolls to wound against models with the mark of Nurgle are at -1 to wound, they are also immune to poison which must roll to wound as normal. Characters with this mark also have +1 Wound.

Fear (terror if they already cause fear) and poison seem like the better option and looking at some of the art work seems reasonable enough, if you want to make characters better than just give them cloud of flies (-1 to hit in close combat), its either that or something like as long as they don't take a magical weapons they have the poison 5+ special rule and magical attacks


Mark of Slaanesh
Models with the mark of Slaanesh are immune to Panic, Fear & Terror. Units in base contact with one or more models with the mark of Slaanesh suffer -1 Leadership. ??? Suggestions ???

immune psychology seems reasonable enough however I was liking the enemies in b2b are half ws , you could stretch to characters having ASF just not units.


To be honest I don't think Marauders should be markable either

Same here actually, I wouldn't mind seeing them have totems of the gods with some very minor effects on the game like totem khorne is +1 WS, nurgle is posion attacks, Tzeentch is reroll purse rolls and slaanesh immune to fear and terror.

Jack of Blades
28-03-2011, 13:42
I think people should concentrate on this far more than being the big angry god who likes really angry people because they are angry and chop things, dunno but at the moment they seem more like Orcs than chaos warriors.

I regard them more as psychotic than Orc-like. You know, like an angry Blood Dragon. Each to his own.


Why should a model that spends no points at all have on the average the same protection a lord level wizard provides (average of 3)? its just far to good. Still why would being a follower of Khorne make you immune to magic? in past editions (bar 6th) you had to buy items to protect you against magic, having a warshrine or a gift that can be bought to protect from magic also stops the mark from being overpowered, MR 1/+1 provides a little of protection and also gives you a reason to take items that provide MR (as they would stack).

You mean if you put a character in the unit? didn't consider that. 6th would be the edition I started with Warhammer so I didn't know about that. Say you get one dice instead of D3 then.


I still think Khorne characters should have KB, KB is far more scary than D3 attacks and really shouldn't they be more designed around killing characters than chumping through basic troops?

Frenzy for troops, infinite Frenzy and Killing Blow for characters. Sounds good to me. I was going to say that Khornate characters definitely want to mow their way through troops just as much as kill enemy champions but that's already represented by Frenzy.


Again not so keen on the who bucket load of rerolls, I actually like the fact you don't have warrior mages anymore, I would rather see rolls on a mutation/eye of the gods table for the mark, bring back the randomness to chaos.

Well yeah rolling on the Eye of the Gods table sounds pretty cool. So Tzeentch troops get a roll on the EotG table, characters get two, wizards with the mark get +1 to cast and non-wizard characters may become wizards for 30 points per level up to level 2 for Heroes and 4 for Lords (because a lot of people like warrior-mage Tzeentch, including myself).


Fear (terror if they already cause fear) and poison seem like the better option and looking at some of the art work seems reasonable enough, if you want to make characters better than just give them cloud of flies (-1 to hit in close combat), its either that or something like as long as they don't take a magical weapons they have the poison 5+ special rule and magical attacks

Fear/Terror and Poison doesn't catch that Nurgle is tough to kill though. I mean, why is a Nurgle warrior substantially scarier than any of the other gods' warriors? and why are they as easy to kill as the others when their god is supposed to make them tougher? That's why I made it -1 to wound instead of to hit as well, they're hard to wound not to hit. So yeah...


immune psychology seems reasonable enough however I was liking the enemies in b2b are half ws , you could stretch to characters having ASF just not units.

Hmmm... well, that's okay I suppose, ASF for characters isn't very inspiring but I don't know what else to do - perhaps an ability that can be used against a model in base contact. Just passive effects is ok for Khorne and Nurgle but a waste for Slaanesh imo.


Same here actually, I wouldn't mind seeing them have totems of the gods with some very minor effects on the game like totem khorne is +1 WS, nurgle is posion attacks, Tzeentch is reroll purse rolls and slaanesh immune to fear and terror.

Indeed, minor effects for the Marauders.

tr1pod
28-03-2011, 15:38
I hate, HATE, Killing Blow. This thing should be taken out of the game, not put it in for more things.

logan054
28-03-2011, 16:11
I regard them more as psychotic than Orc-like. You know, like an angry Blood Dragon. Each to his own.

I really dislike this idea, seems to me that khorne is becoming more and more the god of murder rather than the god of war, why does warhammer really need to gods of murder? What is interesting is that Khorne daemons don't seem to be as blood thirsty as khorne warriors rules wise.


You mean if you put a character in the unit? didn't consider that. 6th would be the edition I started with Warhammer so I didn't know about that. Say you get one dice instead of D3 then.

My thought was that MR with a unit and a character would stack as well as with items, in 7th this might have been a issue however in 8th I don't see that as the case. It also makes things like the juggers MR more useful and again follows the theme laid out by daemons. I still think if you want some sort of bonus to dispel rolls then you should have to pay for it and the price I think would just be to high on a per unit/model basis, make something like that a upgrade for a model (be it a warshrine or a chaos gift).


Frenzy for troops, infinite Frenzy and Killing Blow for characters. Sounds good to me. I was going to say that Khornate characters definitely want to mow their way through troops just as much as kill enemy champions but that's already represented by Frenzy.

I still think hatred is the better option rules wise, its adds enough to the unit offense for a turn to turn the tide of a combat without being overpowered. I also think KB with a WS7 I6 A4 model is more than enough and I think it should be limited to mundane weapons rather than anything he takes which would also keep the cost of the mark down. You could then change axe of Khorne to being KB but when on a Khorne hero Heroic KB. It just adds some nice synergy between items and marks, what it does mean is you don't have to limit items to marks but models with the correct mark get a better benefit from the item (same with collar of Khorne and mark of khorne).


Well yeah rolling on the Eye of the Gods table sounds pretty cool. So Tzeentch troops get a roll on the EotG table, characters get two, wizards with the mark get +1 to cast and non-wizard characters may become wizards for 30 points per level up to level 2 for Heroes and 4 for Lords (because a lot of people like warrior-mage Tzeentch, including myself).

I actually think one roll would be enough but perhaps characters can add or subtract one from the roll, the warrior mage doesn't bother me as I started in 4th ed and he only edition we access to it was 6th/HoC.


Fear/Terror and Poison doesn't catch that Nurgle is tough to kill though. I mean, why is a Nurgle warrior substantially scarier than any of the other gods' warriors? and why are they as easy to kill as the others when their god is supposed to make them tougher? That's why I made it -1 to wound instead of to hit as well, they're hard to wound not to hit. So yeah...

Looking at the art work I think fear/terror works very well, you have guys covered in boils, their guts busting out of their armour, in some ways its like a massive zombie that can run faster than you, strike faster than you. Poison again works well with the idea the warriors being walking plague carriers. I guess the other idea is to make chaos warriors of nurgle more undead but I think you would really need to make a new unit rather than just a mark. Still T5 is just to much for a core unit, I guess you could go down the path of giving them regen but I think on chaos warriors again that could be to good.


Hmmm... well, that's okay I suppose, ASF for characters isn't very inspiring but I don't know what else to do - perhaps an ability that can be used against a model in base contact. Just passive effects is ok for Khorne and Nurgle but a waste for Slaanesh imo.

Well Slaanesh has always been a tough one to get right, I remember when they used to be unbreakable.


Indeed, minor effects for the Marauders.

Stupid marauders getting proper marks, I think that is one of the failings of the current book, the marks are not very well thought out, just look at the warshrine, 30pts for on attack? go MoK warshrines!


I hate, HATE, Killing Blow. This thing should be taken out of the game, not put it in for more things.

More things should have it :D

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2011, 16:15
Stupid marauders getting proper marks, I think that is one of the failings of the current book, the marks are not very well thought out, just look at the warshrine, 30pts for on attack? go MoK warshrines!

Maruaders shouldn't be getting marks.
Also, the marks need to be priced according to the model, rather than have a one-size fits all pricing structure for everyone other than character's.

Now chaos wariror champions for maruaders on the other hand, those guys can have marks.

Jack of Blades
28-03-2011, 16:35
I really dislike this idea, seems to me that khorne is becoming more and more the god of murder rather than the god of war, why does warhammer really need to gods of murder? What is interesting is that Khorne daemons don't seem to be as blood thirsty as khorne warriors rules wise.

Yes I've always thought it makes no sense that Khorne's mortal followers are frenzied but his daemons aren't. What was Khorne in the olden days then? I've grown up on a diet of ''Khorne wants blood'' and just about that. Now that I think of it Bloodletters have Hatred so might as well swap Frenzy for that.


My thought was that MR with a unit and a character would stack as well as with items, in 7th this might have been a issue however in 8th I don't see that as the case. It also makes things like the juggers MR more useful and again follows the theme laid out by daemons. I still think if you want some sort of bonus to dispel rolls then you should have to pay for it and the price I think would just be to high on a per unit/model basis, make something like that a upgrade for a model (be it a warshrine or a chaos gift).

Well, *shrug*. Here's a situation when I don't really care :p


I still think hatred is the better option rules wise, its adds enough to the unit offense for a turn to turn the tide of a combat without being overpowered. I also think KB with a WS7 I6 A4 model is more than enough and I think it should be limited to mundane weapons rather than anything he takes which would also keep the cost of the mark down. You could then change axe of Khorne to being KB but when on a Khorne hero Heroic KB. It just adds some nice synergy between items and marks, what it does mean is you don't have to limit items to marks but models with the correct mark get a better benefit from the item (same with collar of Khorne and mark of khorne).

Tbh I think all Chosen, Knights, Sorcerers, Heroes and Lords should have magical attacks to start with, either that or Knights shouldn't have that special rule. I otherwise like the rest of that paragraph, but disagree that it should only apply to mundane weapons. Not because it's too weak or anything, but because why would he forget how to KB because he's using that sword instead of this one?


I actually think one roll would be enough but perhaps characters can add or subtract one from the roll, the warrior mage doesn't bother me as I started in 4th ed and he only edition we access to it was 6th/HoC.

+/-1 instead of two rolls suits me fine ;)


Looking at the art work I think fear/terror works very well, you have guys covered in boils, their guts busting out of their armour, in some ways its like a massive zombie that can run faster than you, strike faster than you. Poison again works well with the idea the warriors being walking plague carriers. I guess the other idea is to make chaos warriors of nurgle more undead but I think you would really need to make a new unit rather than just a mark. Still T5 is just to much for a core unit, I guess you could go down the path of giving them regen but I think on chaos warriors again that could be to good.

They should really have fear, poisoned attacks and something to make them tougher to kill but that would obviously be too much. Regen too good but what about 5+ regen?


Well Slaanesh has always been a tough one to get right, I remember when they used to be unbreakable.

Unbreakable would be even worse, I mean you mark your troops so that if they lose combat they'll stick around? who would worship Slaanesh for that?


Stupid marauders getting proper marks, I think that is one of the failings of the current book, the marks are not very well thought out, just look at the warshrine, 30pts for on attack? go MoK warshrines!

Yeah the MoK on the Warshrine really sticks out and pokes you in the nuts, not that the marks (except Khorne which cannot be done wrong) are very inspiring to begin with...

genesis873
28-03-2011, 16:42
Maybe MoS could give armour piercing (Since they are about elegance and precision, and thats what daemons get), and ItP?

I really like the idea of characters getting extra buffs too. Maybe slaanesh characters could get ASF?

Jack of Blades
28-03-2011, 16:47
Maybe MoS could give armour piercing (Since they are about elegance and precision, and thats what daemons get), and ItP?

I really like the idea of characters getting extra buffs too. Maybe slaanesh characters could get ASF?

I thought about that too. My conclusion however is again fluff-based; why would they be better against armoured foes while not receiving anything against unarmoured ones? So something I thought of 5 seconds ago, just to throw a ball in the air when it comes to Slaanesh, is to give them +1 to wound.

Glad you like it :)

Ok, mark updating time. To repeat it for people who haven't read the whole thread, these marks will be priced per model and will have different prices for different models, as well as obviously different prices for different marks.

Mark of Khorne
Confers Hatred. Characters with this mark also have +1 Attack. Models with this mark are Immune to Psychology on the turn they charge. (Various item/gift bonuses if taking stuff with MoK, and indeed the other marks as well)

Mark of Tzeentch
Models with this mark must roll on the Eye of the Gods table at the beginning of the battle, characters may modify the result by +/-1. Wizards with this mark also have +1 to cast. Non-wizard characters with this mark may be upgraded into wizards for 30 points per magic level, up to level 2 for Heroes and 4 for Lords.

Mark of Nurgle
Models with this mark cause Fear or Terror if they already cause Fear, have +1 to their Armour save (I want to stick survivability in here, Poisoned Attacks would infringe on Slaanesh's territory but that stupid ''no better than 1+'' rule makes this useless on Knights, while 5+ Regeneration is useless if you want a Ward save for your character and perhaps too good for RnF... so I dunno what to add here, perhaps a 6+ Regeneration that also works with Ward saves?) and Poisoned Attacks must roll to wound as normal against them. Characters with this mark also have Poisoned Attacks.

Mark of Slaanesh
Models with this mark have +1 on their to wound rolls and are immune to Fear, Terror and Panic. Enemy models in base contact with a character with this mark at the start of a close combat phase must pass a Leadership test or reduce their WS to 1 for the duration of that phase.

Eta
28-03-2011, 17:27
Mark of Nurgle
Models with this mark cause Fear or Terror if they already cause Fear, have +1 to their Armour save (I want to stick survivability in here, Poisoned Attacks would infringe on Slaanesh's territory but that stupid ''no better than 1+'' rule makes this useless on Knights, while 5+ Regeneration is useless if you want a Ward save for your character and perhaps too good for RnF... so I dunno what to add here, perhaps a 6+ Regeneration that also works with Ward saves?) and Poisoned Attacks must roll to wound as normal against them. Characters with this mark also have Poisoned Attacks.


+1 to wound, Poisoned Attacks have to wound as normal, characters gain an additional wound would be my version of the Mark of Nurgle.

logan054
28-03-2011, 17:28
Maruaders shouldn't be getting marks.
Also, the marks need to be priced according to the model, rather than have a one-size fits all pricing structure for everyone other than character's.

Now chaos wariror champions for maruaders on the other hand, those guys can have marks.

My view is that you shouldn't really have marks at all but rather just different units for each god, what we have now is like Orcs picking upgrades to become black orcs and savage orcs. Still if you went down the mark route then I think marauders should have totems which are just very minor effects in comparison to the marks.

Also I do miss chaos warriors as unit champions for marauders but then again I don't think warriors, chosen or knights should have units champions but rather any model should be able to issue challenges.


Yes I've always thought it makes no sense that Khorne's mortal followers are frenzied but his daemons aren't. What was Khorne in the olden days then? I've grown up on a diet of ''Khorne wants blood'' and just about that. Now that I think of it Bloodletters have Hatred so might as well swap Frenzy for that.

He has always been the blood god but it just seems over the years he has become more and more focused on that aspect which is sad really.


Tbh I think all Chosen, Knights, Sorcerers, Heroes and Lords should have magical attacks to start with, either that or Knights shouldn't have that special rule. I otherwise like the rest of that paragraph, but disagree that it should only apply to mundane weapons. Not because it's too weak or anything, but because why would he forget how to KB because he's using that sword instead of this one?

I think chaos knights should just have strength 5 and be done with it, it is silly that chosen and heroes don't have magical attacks and they do, just another silly thing in the book that erks me, my thought on the KB was more in relation to the weapon than the character, something more akin to wight blades, basically Khorne blessing their weapons or some such, as I said it keeps the price down and makes you have to choice if you want to be good at killing characters (KB) or if you want to be good at killing troops, it also avoids silly combos like +2/3 attack weapons which would be pretty damn savage combined with hatred and KB.


+/-1 instead of two rolls suits me fine ;)

hehe


They should really have fear, poisoned attacks and something to make them tougher to kill but that would obviously be too much. Regen too good but what about 5+ regen?

Regen even at a 5+ seems like a OTT army ability, its actually worse than what Tzeentch warrriors have as they can combine it with the use of a halberd and get it against shooting (unless flaming obviously), +1 wound isn't as bad for a character.


Unbreakable would be even worse, I mean you mark your troops so that if they lose combat they'll stick around? who would worship Slaanesh for that?

Well I am not saying they should have it but I assume it was because they got pleasure out of being slapped around hence why they didn't run, you know these SLaanesh types ;) I guess when it comes down to marks you need to think what sort of roll you want them to have on the table, I guess stubborn is also another idea which would be akin to unbreakable, just not as OTT, I guess you could have it that characters make any unit they join stubborn? stops the lone characters of sillyness holding up horde units all game.


Yeah the MoK on the Warshrine really sticks out and pokes you in the nuts, not that the marks (except Khorne which cannot be done wrong) are very inspiring to begin with...

You can imagine my displeasure when I got the book wanting to continue my mono Khorne army :( spawn and giant marks are just as bad really, shaggoth was a let down considering how cool the model is :(



Mark of Khorne
Confers Hatred. Characters with this mark also have +1 Attack. Models with this mark are Immune to Psychology on the turn they charge. (Various item/gift bonuses if taking stuff with MoK, and indeed the other marks as well)

KB on characters without the +1 attack :p

Stonewyrm
28-03-2011, 19:22
I think Slaanesh should be different and balanced. Killing blow or ASF are not balanced. I also think it's best to keep these things simple and cheap. Marks should be for diversity not for powergaming. I would stick to my suggestion of added speed, it helps our footsloggers get across the board faster but isn't overpowered. Int helps deny ASF rerolls but isn't overpowered on it's own either.

Immune to Panic, Fear and Terror plus Int +2 and Movement +1

Nurgle is a bit harder. T5 is too hard as S3 becomes totaly useless. 6+ Regen is basicly the same as Tzeentch but not stackable. 5+ Regen is better than Tzeentch because it can be combined with Halberds. I still like my original suggestion with an addition from Jack. The fear from boils and ugly stuff is fluffy. Poison is fluffy, I mean how many diseses and stuff must these guys have? 6+ Regen is fluffy and within reason.

6+ Regen, Fear, Poison attacks.

ExquisiteMonkey
29-03-2011, 00:02
What about poison for Slaanesh, possibly with Armour piercing on all weapons (inc Magic)?

This would represent the finesse with which they fight, aiming and hitting the right spot on their target (no matter the armour/toughness), rather than an actual poison causing the wound. And for characters, the armour piercing is to just increase their effectiveness.

Gus8
29-03-2011, 07:28
MoK needs something like stubborn maybe (or permanent frenzy). It seems counter intuitive to me, the scions of Khorne worshiping the Blood God in the crucible of battle get a bit scared because there are too many Skaven Slaves about.

In saying that, not too concerned about what marks do, bring back the Daemons! Make the army book interesting again:evilgrin:.

Przemcio251
29-03-2011, 07:51
Hmmm will throw my two Cent's here.

Khorne should give Hate and +1A(in the turn the unit/character charges) not Frenzy.

Tzeentch adding +1 to cast and +1 to ward save is fine.

Nurgle well +1 T would be awsom!!! but Regen 5+ or -1 to hit is also good.

Slaanesh well ASF and ITP would be great.

Also if EotG is Keept enemy charactes should not be able to decline challanges:) and chaos charactes should always issue them to the highest point value opponent possible.

Any way i dubt we see new WOCH book before 2014 so we are stick with what we have... not that i complain:)

logan054
30-03-2011, 15:36
People here might be interested in this http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284264

Zoolander
30-03-2011, 19:37
People here might be interested in this http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284264

I posted over there, Logan. I really like a lot of your suggestions. Still needs some fine tuning, most notably the MoS, but you are on the right track.

logan054
30-03-2011, 20:17
Hah cheers mate, well I certainly agree at the moment its in the brainstorming stage.