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sliganian
27-03-2006, 14:33
Hi Folks:

When one charges a unit of Salamanders, how are the models supposed to be ranked up?

What has happened in my last game was my opponent put his Salamanders in front along the battle line with the Skinks behind them, which is a bit of a slog for my Elves to cleave through. My opponent is not being exploitive, we cannot see anything in the Rules that says he cannot arrange his mixed-sized skirmishers as he wishes. However, I was hoping there was a clarification someplace. The FAQ's don't appear to cover this.

jansenm
27-03-2006, 14:52
They rank up normally like when you charge a unit of skimishers

if you chare the font I would believe salamanders in front skinks behind
however in the beastmen army list the mixed unit its wysiwug

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-03-2006, 14:52
No clarification anywhere. Basically he have to put as many models into base contact as possible. In effect it means that if the Salamanders are at the front of the unit so you contact one of them, they can all get into combat, by taking the corner spots too.

sliganian
27-03-2006, 15:37
Hmm...

So even if I charge and the first model contacted is a skink, there is nothing to prevent an opponnent from filling the rest of the battle line with the salamanders? (it seems 3 Salamanders conveniently equals 5 Cav bases in width).

Would I be correct then, in assuming that the trick here seems to be to charge a salamander unit with a wide a frontage as possible (ranks be damned!)? I am thinking that the Salamanders can be ranked along the battle line, but in order to properly fill-out the line he would HAVE to move the skinks up into combat (which of course are much squishier than sallies)?

Latro
27-03-2006, 15:56
If he needs to get as much models as possible into combat, which is what I think he has to do according to the rules, he will have to use Skinks to fill the front rank because more Skinks will fit into that same space ... only at the corners will it be possible to put two Salamanders.

Personally I think that every Skink with a shred of self-preservation would prod that big nasty Salamander in front of him to do the fighting, staying safely behind them while making rude gestures at the attackers.

... but the rules say Skinks have to be brave (or stupid).

:cool:

sliganian
27-03-2006, 16:13
If he needs to get as much models as possible into combat, which is what I think he has to do according to the rules, he will have to use Skinks to fill the front rank because more Skinks will fit into that same space ... only at the corners will it be possible to put two Salamanders.

Personally I think that every Skink with a shred of self-preservation would prod that big nasty Salamander in front of him to do the fighting, staying safely behind them while making rude gestures at the attackers.

... but the rules say Skinks have to be brave (or stupid).

:cool:

Re: maximum number of models in combat
I'll have a look at the Rules tonight and see if I'd have a case based on 'number of models'. The thing is, the salamanders themselves might techinically 'count as' more models based on Unit Strength number if a Skink or two has been eaten in a shooting phase. So 3 Sallies would be as good as 9 Skinks, so it is a break-even decision at best, US advantage to the salamanders if some skinks have been chomped.

I agree that the Skinks would prod the beasts forward, but thanks to this discussion I think I see a way around the issue (eg. wide frontage charge to force Skinks into the battleline).

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-03-2006, 16:50
No. More models means just that. It's not about US, it's about the actual number of models. So a Salamander count as one model, exactly as a skink does.

Latro
27-03-2006, 17:00
No. More models means just that. It's not about US, it's about the actual number of models. So a Salamander count as one model, exactly as a skink does.

Yeah, it's not a bad rule ... but in this case I think Salamander packs should have a special rule making the Salamanders do the fighting. The way it goes now just looks silly.

:cool:

Festus
27-03-2006, 17:34
Hi

It is the attacker that has to do the maximising of models, not the defender.
He may set up his models as he likes, provided he

a) fills the whole line if able to do so,
b) puts any models out of their reach in the back ranks, and
c) lines up in a legal formation.

Greetings
Festus

Flame
27-03-2006, 17:55
Hi

It is the attacker that has to do the maximising of models, not the defender.
He may set up his models as he likes, provided he

Festus, really, read the rules before you quote like its the gospel.

As per pg 116, when you charge skirmishers, THEY also have to maximise.

This means that skinks will nearly always be in combat, for example-

A salli unit is charged by a 100mm wide unit, and the first contact is with a salli. Then, either side of the sali will be 3 skinks (making 100mm wide unit), then 2 sallis can fit on either end.

Festus
27-03-2006, 19:37
Festus, really, read the rules before you quote like its the gospel.

As per pg 116, when you charge skirmishers, THEY also have to maximise.

Would you mind quoting the relevant part of the English rulebook for me then?
Because their seem to be slight differences here...

Festus

Flame
27-03-2006, 20:22
'When charged, the enemy is brought into base contact with the closest skirmisher and the enemy unit is halted. The skirmishers then immediatly form up following the rules above.'

(Above)
'When the maximum number of models have been brought into base contact with the side charged (inc. models fighting corner to corner), remaining skirmishers will begin to form up in ranks'.

All on pg 116.

Festus
27-03-2006, 20:34
Hi

In the German version, it can be read as if just the front of the charger must be engaged with skirmishers so that no further can fit (if at all possible).

This changes things a bit. But not much, I daresay. I think it is still the ownig player's decision where to put his models. It might get clumsy with mixed size units, but you probably should play *common-sense* here: The skinks will prod the Sallys up front if at all possible.

Greetings
Festus

ZomboCom
27-03-2006, 20:58
I disagree with the interpretation that you have to have the most number of models in contact when charging skirmishers, because it has some serious flaws.

Imagine a skink unit with a saurus character in it. According to this interpretation you wouldn't be allowed to put the saurus in the front rank, because it's on a larger base, so you could fit more skinks in if you put them in front instead. That's clearly a nonsense.

The salamanders should be allowed to rank up with the charging enemy. It's daft to think that the skinks would have to fight with the salamanders behind. I'd certainly never force an opponent to rank them up like that.

mageith
27-03-2006, 21:09
Hi

In the German version, it can be read as if just the front of the charger must be engaged with skirmishers so that no further can fit (if at all possible).

I think that's what the English version actually says too, but I'm usually in the minority opinion on that. Currently most folks interpret the English in light of the maximizing rules for ranked units. Oh Well.



This changes things a bit. But not much, I daresay. I think it is still the ownig player's decision where to put his models. It might get clumsy with mixed size units, but you probably should play *common-sense* here: The skinks will prod the Sallys up front if at all possible.

:) Common sense? On a rules forum? I think I am noticing that you are going there more often lately.

Festus
27-03-2006, 21:13
:) Common sense? On a rules forum? I think I am noticing that you are going there more often lately.

Oh my, I have been discovered.:eek: Guilty as charged, and I can barely restrain myself ;)

Greetings
Festus

DaIronGob
27-03-2006, 22:45
Imagine a skink unit with a saurus character in it. According to this interpretation you wouldn't be allowed to put the saurus in the front rank, because it's on a larger base, so you could fit more skinks in if you put them in front instead. That's clearly a nonsense.


That would be against the rules as any characters joined to a unit must be in the front rank. That would take priority over anything else.

Major Defense
27-03-2006, 23:41
I've never been able to find anything conclusive about this (not for lack of trying or saying that they aren't out there somewhere) so my group made the assumption that handlers would prod their pets forward. Besides...Skaven do it!

Latro
28-03-2006, 06:27
Page 116 of the BRB is pretty conclusive and clear: "maximum number of models" means exactly what it says ... no matter how dumb it actually is.

Any Characters hanging around in skirmishing units can always find a place in the front rank at the extreme end, even if it is just corner-to-corner ... so that's not a very good argument.

If people don't like it (and why should they, it's a dumb rule), they should be knocking at GW's door and ask for a sensible errata. Just don't claim the rule isn't there or complain it's ambigues ... because it is there and it is very clear (but also very dumb in this case)

On a sidenote: Dark Elf Hydra handlers have a rule concerning close combat. Models that are only in base contact with the handlers can attack them, but all other models have to direct their attacks at the Hydra.

:cool:

ZomboCom
28-03-2006, 09:52
I interpret "maximum number of models" in a different way. I interpret it as meaning that you must entirely fill the frontage, which is more sensible.

Sure it's a little dubious, but it makes more sense, and as I said, I'd never force anyone to rank up the skinks before the salamanders.

Latro
28-03-2006, 11:40
I interpret "maximum number of models" in a different way. I interpret it as meaning that you must entirely fill the frontage, which is more sensible.

:confused:

"Maximum number of models" can not be interpreted in more than one way. It's as clear as it can get. If you don't like the rule and if you want to play it differently ... fine, be my guest. But the rule is clear.


Sure it's a little dubious, but it makes more sense, and as I said, I'd never force anyone to rank up the skinks before the salamanders.

Neither would I. Just don't try to hide behind "interpretations" of a very clear rule ... just simply say that the rule is crap in this case and that you will play it differently!

:cool:

(PS I think I managed to totally agree and at the same time totally disagree with you in the same post ... I'm so proud of me :p )

sliganian
28-03-2006, 14:16
On a sidenote: Dark Elf Hydra handlers have a rule concerning close combat. Models that are only in base contact with the handlers can attack them, but all other models have to direct their attacks at the Hydra.
:cool:

That method actually makes the most sense.
As the opponent, is the reason I am charging to remove those pesky Skink handlers? No! The essential target of my charge IS the Salamanders themsevles. The Skinks should probably be ignored entirely.

Since my friend and I don't play store games or tournies, I'll probably let him just shove the Sallies up front BUT I will make sure that the frontage is filled out properly (which hopefully will bring squishy Skinks into the fray).

Thanks for the help anonymous internet people. :D

adbower
28-03-2006, 16:10
Going by the rules, I would guess the skinks would be in front, but was stated, I don't think I'd force my opponent to do so.

However, should the frontage be large enough, I would venture that the skinks would HAVE to move up once all of the salamanders are in line, if there was any room on the corners.

DeathlessDraich
28-03-2006, 17:51
Hi

I have only managed to read some of the posts - so apologies if this does not follow some of the lines of discussion.
Sliganian - Warhammer Q&A provide some clarification I think.
It states that charges involving monsters and handlers follow rules for skirmishes but 2 things are important in your case which I shall quote :

1) "90 degree arcs are measured from the monster"
and
2) " .. when the unit forms up THOSE IN RANGE get into base to base contact".

Therefore when the skinks were within range of your charge they should have formed up in front as well as the Salamander and space should have been allocated to them.
N.B. rule 1 implies that they can be FLANKED charged by 1 unit unlike other skirmishers!

The exception to rule 2 is the Dark Elf Hydra but that is clearly stated in the hydra rules.

ZomboCom
28-03-2006, 21:57
Hi

I have only managed to read some of the posts - so apologies if this does not follow some of the lines of discussion.
Sliganian - Warhammer Q&A provide some clarification I think.
It states that charges involving monsters and handlers follow rules for skirmishes but 2 things are important in your case which I shall quote :

1) "90 degree arcs are measured from the monster"
and
2) " .. when the unit forms up THOSE IN RANGE get into base to base contact".

Therefore when the skinks were within range of your charge they should have formed up in front as well as the Salamander and space should have been allocated to them.
N.B. rule 1 implies that they can be FLANKED charged by 1 unit unlike other skirmishers!

The exception to rule 2 is the Dark Elf Hydra but that is clearly stated in the hydra rules.

Sorry, that just doesn't work for salamanders. You can't flank a unit of salamanders because there can be up to 3 monsters in the unit, which would you use for the 90 degrees? It's a nonsense, sorry.

Salamanders are skirmishers, so can't be flanked until they're already in combat.

SuperBeast
29-03-2006, 20:57
"Maximum number" is being taken out of context here.
The "maximum number" with regard to the skirmisher rules, and if you read the whole paragraph, refers to either a) sufficient models to overlap the enemy's front rank or b) models within charge range, whichever happens first.
Thus, Salamanders are allowed to be assembled at the front.

Gorbad Ironclaw
30-03-2006, 06:19
Of course they are, but you still have to get as many models as you can into the fight.

Again, thats why you usually put Salamanders at the front of the unit. Enemy charge, contact Salamander, you then have to fill up the frontage, but at least you can get all the Salamanders into combat.

And if I'm charging them, with most things I'd much rather attack the skinks. Much easier to kill, and will hopefully let you win the combat big, break them and run them down.

Countblah
30-03-2006, 12:11
The rules for salamanders say as described in the LZ armybook:
"controlled creature: the skinks guide the salamanders in to combat" so i guess the skinks will not get into combat ever. I see those skinks as miscast lunch for the salamander, they serve no other purpose whatsoever. If all 3 skinks are gone by shooting(you still have to divide the hits) or miscast lunch then you roll on the monstertable. All attacks in cc should be against the salamander.
Dont have the book with me here but if im not mistaking the salamanders have only one statline in the armybook. So if you got one salamander and he gets killed in cc isnt the whole unit(sallie+skinks) gone then?

Just my two cents really

mageith
30-03-2006, 15:17
The rules for salamanders say as described in the LZ armybook:
"controlled creature: the skinks guide the salamanders in to combat" so i guess the skinks will not get into combat ever.

This is mere fluff unfortunately.



I see those skinks as miscast lunch for the salamander, they serve no other purpose whatsoever. If all 3 skinks are gone by shooting(you still have to divide the hits) or miscast lunch then you roll on the monstertable. All attacks in cc should be against the salamander.

miscast? :) misfire! The Salamander is not known to dribble on himself. "...the shot is just discounted."



Dont have the book with me here but if im not mistaking the salamanders have only one statline in the armybook.

They appear in a Hunting Pack.



So if you got one salamander and he gets killed in cc isnt the whole unit(sallie+skinks) gone then?

Nope. The unit can still survive and even charge, since they aren't a war machine crew either.



Just my two cents really
You have a lot of factual errors in your analysis.

Mage Ith

DeathlessDraich
03-04-2006, 11:23
If I could summarise:

Case 1: Zom the Rat Assassin :angel: spots some juicy Salamander flesh - a unit consisting of 1 salamander with skinks, and is within range of of Sally the Salamander only (in her voluptuous flank).
He is inflamed by Sally's flank (flank charge) and charges into it, tickling Sally in the ribs. The stinky skinks wait at the back. Sally rebuffs the Assassin by whacking his bottom with her tail which inadvertently jams up his rectum. :eek:
The Assassin howls in pain and 4 slashes of his swords later is enjoying Sally spare ribs BBQ.:D

Case 2: Still 1 Salamander only. The Assassin is within range of skinks and lusting after Sally's flank. It's no longer a flank charge and 1 skink and Sally is in combat with him (or just Sally whichever is in accordance with gentlemanly maximisation)

Case 3: 2 or more Salamanders. Both Salamanders are within range but not the skinks. The Sallies line up facing the Assassin together with skinks at the back. (or just Sally whichever is in accordance with gentemanly maximisation)

Case 4: 2 or more Salamanders. Both Salamanders and skinks are within range. The closest model - Sally or skink aligns with the Assassin. No precise clarification from the rules here on, although skirmishers' rules could favour the Sally player in making the choice of choosing a Sally or skink. (again in accordance with maximisation)

SuperBeast
03-04-2006, 18:36
If I could summarise:

Case 1: Zom the Rat Assassin :angel: spots some juicy Salamander flesh - a unit consisting of 1 salamander with skinks, and is within range of of Sally the Salamander only (in her voluptuous flank).
He is inflamed by Sally's flank (flank charge) and charges into it, tickling Sally in the ribs. The stinky skinks wait at the back. Sally rebuffs the Assassin by whacking his bottom with her tail which inadvertently jams up his rectum. :eek:
The Assassin howls in pain and 4 slashes of his swords later is enjoying Sally spare ribs BBQ.:D
Except you don't get flanks when charging unengaged skirmishers...


Case 2: Still 1 Salamander only. The Assassin is within range of skinks and lusting after Sally's flank. It's no longer a flank charge and 1 skink and Sally is in combat with him (or just Sally whichever is in accordance with gentlemanly maximisation)
Could be Sally, Skink and a.n.other. The skirmisher rules stipulate you must maximise BtB contact (including corner to corner) until it is no longer possible. As Skaven are on the same size bases as Skinks, this makes skink in direct BtB, Salamander in CtC plus another skink in CtC on the other side.


Case 3: 2 or more Salamanders. Both Salamanders are within range but not the skinks. The Sallies line up facing the Assassin together with skinks at the back. (or just Sally whichever is in accordance with gentemanly maximisation)
as you can ALWAYS fit two models into BtB contact with a single model, regardless of relative base sizes, both Salamanders can legitimately move into range.
(As an aside, it's impossible to have a unit containing two salamanders where no skinks can reach the combat rank - 2*40mm + 2 inch gaps = 5.14 inches, so even if they're in a line with maximum spacing there is no legal way a skink can be out of combat range.)


Case 4: 2 or more Salamanders. Both Salamanders and skinks are within range. The closest model - Sally or skink aligns with the Assassin. No precise clarification from the rules here on, although skirmishers' rules could favour the Sally player in making the choice of choosing a Sally or skink. (again in accordance with maximisation)
As the rules for skirmishers state, you have to maximise BtB up to the point you run out of models within range or you run out of enemy models.
The enemy can put as many salamanders as are within their M range in the front rank.

Latro
03-04-2006, 19:07
Does it matter if some models in the charged unit are in range of the charger or not? I thought that they would rank-up regardless, following the rules of maximising the amount of models.

- so the charger decides what will be the orignal model he charges, which may be either skink or salamander (if in range of course)

- the defender decided what other models will go in base-contact, but he has to maximise the amount ... which may force him to use skinks

So in case of the charging rat:

- if he charges a salamander ... one other model must be added (corner-contact) which may be a salamander

- if he charges a skink ... two models must be added (corner-contact) which again can be salamanders

And if a monster charges:

- if charging a salamander ... two more models in corner-contact, can be salamanders

- if charging a skink ... one more skink in base contact, and two more models in corner-contact, which can be salamanders

And if a unit charges:

- basicly fill up the front with the model that was originally charged and as much skinks as possible ... then you may add salamanders as the outermost (corner-contact) models



:cool:

DeathlessDraich
03-04-2006, 21:29
Sorry, Latro and Super Beast, I stand by what I said.

My only mistake was referring to them as skirmishers which they are not in every respect.:o but otherwise I think my interpretation and summary do conform with the rules below.

These are the rules from Warhammer Chronicles Q&A

MONSTERS & HANDLERS
There have been several questions
regarding how the rules for mixed
units of monsters and handlers work
(Lizardmen Salamanders and Dark Elf
War Hydras, for example) so here are
some clarifications:
• These units do not count as
skirmishers, though the models are
not ranked up.
• When determining what the unit can
charge, or for the purposes of
flank/rear charges by enemy units, use
90° arcs centred on the monster itself.
• When the unit is in close combat, it
forms up following the rules for
skirmishers – ie, those in range get
into base-to-base contact, those out of
range form up behind.
• The models in the unit move at their
own Movement value as long as they
remain within 1" of each other.
Also note that any character allowed to
join the unit counts as ‘riding’ the
monster for the purposes of any
special rules they may have. For
example, if a Dark Elf Beastmaster
joins a War Hydra unit, then it does get
to ignore Monster Reaction tests if all
the ‘crew’ are wiped out.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf

Festus
03-04-2006, 21:49
Hi

So in case of the charging rat:

- if he charges a salamander ... one other model must be added (corner-contact) which may be a salamander


Not necessarily:
If the rat charges in a way that his front is completely covered by the Sally (including the corners) there will be no other model in contact.

One X is 10 mm, X is rat X is Sally:

XXXX
.XX

Greetings
Festus

Latro
03-04-2006, 22:05
Sorry, Latro and Super Beast, I stand by what I said.

My only mistake was referring to them as skirmishers which they are not in every respect.:o but otherwise I think my interpretation and summary do conform with the rules below.

These are the rules from Warhammer Chronicles Q&A

MONSTERS & HANDLERS
There have been several questions
regarding how the rules for mixed
units of monsters and handlers work
(Lizardmen Salamanders and Dark Elf
War Hydras, for example) so here are
some clarifications:
• These units do not count as
skirmishers, though the models are
not ranked up.
• When determining what the unit can
charge, or for the purposes of
flank/rear charges by enemy units, use
90° arcs centred on the monster itself.
• When the unit is in close combat, it
forms up following the rules for
skirmishers – ie, those in range get
into base-to-base contact, those out of
range form up behind.
• The models in the unit move at their
own Movement value as long as they
remain within 1" of each other.
Also note that any character allowed to
join the unit counts as ‘riding’ the
monster for the purposes of any
special rules they may have. For
example, if a Dark Elf Beastmaster
joins a War Hydra unit, then it does get
to ignore Monster Reaction tests if all
the ‘crew’ are wiped out.

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf

... :eek: ... never noticed these ...

You are absolutely right on the flank thing then. However, these rules also say that they rank-up as skirmishers do ... which makes what I said still true. Use the skirmisher rules for ranking-up from the BRB:

- salamander packs being charged will rank-up, if all models happen to be in range of the charger doesn't matter here.

(Imagine the alternative: lone character charges full pack, just one salamander in range ... pack has to rank-up in single file, 12 models deep.)

- bring maximum amount of models in contact

By the way ... if they were making a clarification/errata on salamander packs anyway, why not bother to make a simple (and logical) "skinks hide behind salamanders" rule? ... :wtf:

:cool:

SuperBeast
03-04-2006, 22:26
Apart from anything else, the Salamander packs are specifically noted as Skirmishers; Hydras are not, IIRC (can't find my flippin' DE book).

I see your Q&A 2003 and raise you a Chronicles 2004, where the mention of the Salamanders has been removed from that statement.

I hope you're right, but it still reads to me like they are skirmishers.

Festus
04-04-2006, 09:02
Hi

IIRC, they became skirmishers with the new LM Book, before that they were one of those *mixed units*.

Greetings
Festus

ZomboCom
04-04-2006, 11:50
Yup, in the 2004 annual the salamanders have been deliberately removed from that section, so they don't follow those rules.

I imagine that's for two reasons. Firstly, getting a flank charge on a unit with multiple monsters (which could be facing different ways) is a nonsense. Secondly, they're specifically noted as skirmishers in the LM rulebook.