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View Full Version : Does Evocation of Death stack? (Black Coach question)



dinobot
25-03-2011, 07:29
If you have 2 Black Coaches, do they each use evocation of death seperately or do you only use it once and divide the results between them?

Zywus
25-03-2011, 07:49
Do you actually own the armybook? It's stated very clear in the rules for the evocation.

Read the sentence starting with "If there are more than one black coach on the battlefield..."

dinobot
25-03-2011, 12:26
Do you actually own the armybook? It's stated very clear in the rules for the evocation.

Read the sentence starting with "If there are more than one black coach on the battlefield..."

Dude, do you actually own the book? :eyebrows:

1) It's talking about dice generated by specific wizards, but wizards no longer generate dice in this edition.
2) Nowhere does it state that evocation isn't used multiple times, it simply says dice generated by evocation(s) can't be used on more than one coach.
3) It was deleted by an errata regardless.

antihelten
25-03-2011, 16:53
I think part of dinobot's question is also whether or not you use evocation of death twice, if you have two coaches, and thereby roll the power dices twice. Which isn't really clear, as far as I can tell.

theunwantedbeing
25-03-2011, 16:55
Just the once.

Kalandros
25-03-2011, 18:18
I think part of dinobot's question is also whether or not you use evocation of death twice, if you have two coaches, and thereby roll the power dices twice. Which isn't really clear, as far as I can tell.

If you have multiple, you randomize which coach gets it.
So there's only ever one invocation per magic phase.

I think its pretty clear unless you want to overthink it and extrapolate the possibility of...

so no. Just once.

antihelten
25-03-2011, 19:14
If you have multiple, you randomize which coach gets it.
So there's only ever one invocation per magic phase.

I think its pretty clear unless you want to overthink it and extrapolate the possibility of...

so no. Just once.

I just don't really see how the bit about randomizing if you have more than one coach, in any way implies that you can only roll each dice once.

The way I see it the rule tells you to roll each dice at the beginning of the magic face and each 6 is then discarded and absorbed (after which the bit about randomizing takes effect). the first bit about rolling dices makes no mention of multiple coaches

So if you had 2 coaches you would have 2 unique instances of the rule and should therefore arguably roll each dice twice (although a dice obviously can't be rolled again if it's already been discarded)

To be honest I agree that GW probably only intends that you should roll each dice once, I just don't think that's clear from the rules as written.

Korraz
25-03-2011, 19:19
It says "If there is a coach, do THIS." Not "For every coach, do THIS."

dinobot
25-03-2011, 20:29
It says "If there is a choach, do THIS." Not "For every coach, do THIS."

No it doesn't.

antihelten
25-03-2011, 22:14
The exact rule (including changes from faq):

"at the start of every Magic phase, the Black Coach can absorb magical energy. Roll the dice in the power poll. Any of these dice that score a 6 are absorbed by the Black Coach and are discarded" p. 47

after that, comes the bit about randomizing any absorbed dice, if you have more than one coach.

dinobot
25-03-2011, 23:08
"at the start of every Magic phase, the Black Coach can absorb magical energy. Roll the dice in the power pool. Any of these dice that score a 6 are absorbed by the Black Coach and are discarded" p. 47


Bolded the key phrase. If it were intended to be a global, single use rule it would look like this:


"at the start of every Magic phase, roll the dice in the power pool. Any of these dice that score a 6 are absorbed by a Black Coach and are discarded"

However since the real quote specifies that the ability is tied to the unit, you have to assume that each unit uses it seperately.

Kevlar
26-03-2011, 01:40
Bolded the key phrase. If it were intended to be a global, single use rule it would look like this:



However since the real quote specifies that the ability is tied to the unit, you have to assume that each unit uses it seperately.

No, you don't, because the next sentence explicitly explains how you resolve two or more coaches.

Since casters do not generate dice any more that part of the unit entry was covered in the 8th edition faq. Ignore it.

It is pretty simple to see how you go about resolving two or more black coaches. I don't even see how there could be a question, unless you just don't own the rulebook.

ariochhelldrake
26-03-2011, 03:08
So if you have items or spells that generate more power dice can it only steal these if they are generated at the start of the magic phase?

dinobot
26-03-2011, 03:14
No, you don't, because the next sentence explicitly explains how you resolve two or more coaches.

Since casters do not generate dice any more that part of the unit entry was covered in the 8th edition faq. Ignore it.

It is pretty simple to see how you go about resolving two or more black coaches. I don't even see how there could be a question, unless you just don't own the rulebook.

There's no mention of a limit on how many times EoD can be used, so you use it as any other unit ability therefore multiple Coaches can use it seperately in a phase.

tmarichards
26-03-2011, 04:48
Hey, so if there's no limit, how about I use it 17.36517 times for my single black Coach.

Once again, all of the responsible adults know how this rule is supposed to be played, so leave the children to bicker in the sandpit. They'll get bored shortly.

dinobot
26-03-2011, 05:41
Hey, so if there's no limit, how about I use it 17.36517 times for my single black Coach

Because precedant rules indicate that a special ability such as EoD can only be used once per model, per phase.


Once again, all of the responsible adults know how this rule is supposed to be played, so leave the children to bicker in the sandpit. They'll get bored shortly.

I'm going to ask you kindly to leave this thread, this wasn't a hostile environment until you decided to make this condescending (and logically unsound) post.

antihelten
26-03-2011, 05:43
No, you don't, because the next sentence explicitly explains how you resolve two or more coaches.


Actually it doesn't, the only thing the next sentence explains is how you distribute any absorbed dice if you have two or more coaches.

tmarichards
26-03-2011, 05:51
Well in that case Dinobot, I will accept your authority to ask me to leave threads :)

My point was that the rules are pretty clear how the rules work for the BC- one roll, randomised for multiple Coaches. People abusing this is just a tad silly, hence why I feel it is A. Acceptable to gently mock people for arguing otherwise, and B. Acceptable to gently mock people who insist on arguing a point that is relatively clear, but feel their ego will only be satisfied by people knowing they're right on the internet.

antihelten
26-03-2011, 06:09
Well in that case Dinobot, I will accept your authority to ask me to leave threads :)

My point was that the rules are pretty clear how the rules work for the BC- one roll, randomised for multiple Coaches. People abusing this is just a tad silly, hence why I feel it is A. Acceptable to gently mock people for arguing otherwise, and B. Acceptable to gently mock people who insist on arguing a point that is relatively clear, but feel their ego will only be satisfied by people knowing they're right on the internet.

Obviously the rule isn't that clear since at least two people, think it can be read differently.

So if you'd just explain why the rule can only be used once even when you have two instances of the rule, it would be quite helpful. Instead of basically just saying "the rule works this way, because I say it works this way"

dinobot
26-03-2011, 06:16
My point was that the rules are pretty clear how the rules work for the BC- one roll, randomised for multiple Coaches.

Nowhere does it state that it's capped at one use per turn, so you have to assume that it functions the same as other special rules do in that it may be used once per model per turn.

Saying 2 Black Coaches are only allowed a combined total of 1 EoD holds about as much weight as saying 2 Cauldrons of Blood are only allowed to make a combined total of 1 Blessing of Khaine. Unless you present evidence that would suggest otherwise, your argument is completely hollow.

tmarichards
26-03-2011, 06:21
This thread may help

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277053

dinobot
26-03-2011, 06:23
This thread may help

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277053

There aren't any compelling arguments for either interpretation in that thread.

Fubar
26-03-2011, 07:48
How about a little common sense? The obvious intention is for it to happen once regardless of how many black coaches, which is why the put the rule in there for randomising.
Attempting to find loopholes in the wording is a dead end pursuit as it will most likely result in your opponent calling you a **** and refusing to play you anymore.

tmarichards
26-03-2011, 08:26
Nonsense Fubar! Common sense? In Warhammer? On Warseer?

Burn the heretic!

:D

dinobot
26-03-2011, 10:03
How about a little common sense? The obvious intention is for it to happen once regardless of how many black coaches, which is why the put the rule in there for randomising.


How is the intention obvious? Neither interpretation would unbalance the game (especially in 7th when the ability was weaker) and if the wording was so clear in it's intention you wouldn't have multiple threads asking for clarification without recieving any sort of definitive (or even logical) awnser.


Attempting to find loopholes in the wording is a dead end pursuit as it will most likely result in your opponent calling you a **** and refusing to play you anymore.

On the contrary, having a clear understanding of the rules beforehand with solid evidence to support your interpretations makes the game run smoother and gains you more friendly competitors. What scares opponents away is a drug addled 14 year old trying to pressure them into accepting his arbitrary take on the rules while assuring them that "it's what developers intended duuuuude, here take hit from this joint* it'll make you see things my way." Funny how "what the developers intended" always turns out to be beneficial for the little hoodlum:shifty:

*in no way do I support the smoking of marijuana, it is harmful not only to your intelligence but it will drive away your loved ones as well.

Kalandros
26-03-2011, 11:01
Someone inquire GWShop so they can FAQ it up.

dinobot
26-03-2011, 11:45
Someone inquire GWShop so they can FAQ it up.

It'd be pretty cool of them if they did. I'd also like to know if Red Fury can be used to give you more than 10 attacks in a single round (the rulebook limits your attack statistic to 10, however red fury doesn't necessarily raise your statistic as it says they're "bonus attacks" - it's up to interpretation though so GW should clear it up).

Kalandros
26-03-2011, 13:32
Red fury does not give your Attack characteristic a boost, it gives you Extra Attacks in the same sense as Frenzy gives an Extra attack that isn't written on your profile.

Red Fury grants extra attacks, no indication that it adds to your Attack Characteristic since you already used all your attacks.

theunwantedbeing
26-03-2011, 13:35
Yes, sadly red fury looks to be able to circumvent the attacks limit stat of 10.
Just like random attacks, and bonus attacks and so forth.

So it even works with turning into a mountain chimeara with its 4D6+1 attacks.
Each wound you cause, gives you an extra one.

Well done GW and your wonderful FAQ'ing skills.

Kalandros
26-03-2011, 14:15
I'm okay with a vampire dealing a maximum of 50 kills on top of another 6 from thunderstomp.

RAWR!

Zywus
27-03-2011, 10:57
I now see what your point is dinobot. And I agree that the RAW could support the interpretation that you roll each dice one time per Black coach on the board.