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kaintxu
25-03-2011, 14:28
Hi I wanted to ask a question.

When you have skaven slaves in HtH with other unit you still can shoot to the other unit due to the spendable rule, but, can you shoot at them with a warpfire thrower?

If yes, how are impacts distributed?

1) Whatevet the template touches get hit so it can be for example 5 slaves and 10 of the enemy?

2) the number of hits divided equally?

Or do you have to use it making sure the template does not touch any of your models?

Thanks

theunwantedbeing
25-03-2011, 14:39
Yes, whatever gets hit, gets hit.

kaintxu
25-03-2011, 14:45
Nice.

Thing is a friend of mine says that because of the BRB saying you cannot use templates if they hit any of your models, and the skaven spendable rule saying nothing about it, you cannot place the template over your slaves hoping for it to move (which allways does from 2 to 10" unless missfire) and hit more enemy guys, and that you have to place it directly over enemy guys.

Is this true?

wilsongrahams
25-03-2011, 15:11
Burn them. They make great french toast after the battle.

kaintxu
25-03-2011, 17:24
yes, but how can i prove that i can do it rules wise?

people can be yerks sometime, this guy even wants to dispell a RIP while your are throwing another one, i mean, imagin i have throne of vines on, and I decide to cast regen on my unit, well I throw my dice, and before the spell goes on, he wants to try dispell throne of vines and he says that it is that way because it says RIPs can be dispelled at any time, so any time is any time....

theunwantedbeing
25-03-2011, 17:29
He's free to dispel a RIP spell at anytime during the magic phase.
Provided the spell wasn't cast that phase of course, as then you only get to dispel it on the casting attempt.

Kalandros
25-03-2011, 18:10
Its YOUR magic phase thus Sequencing Applies because there is a conflict:

At the SAME time you both want to: Cast A Spell, Dispel a Spell
Thus since its your phase, you choose the order: You cast the Regen, afterward he can attempt to dispel the Throne.

Thats how I'd tell him it happens.

kaintxu
25-03-2011, 18:32
O yea, that quite clear i never let him do it, neither do other people.

What i want to know is how to explain and show him i can fire a flamethrower over my slaves, because he says it's not posible because template rules in the BRB say it can not touch your units, and the expendable rule in the skaven boot does not adrees that only says you can fire at unit in HtH which works ok for jezzails, or anything else but not a template going over your slaves

Kalandros
25-03-2011, 20:38
technically he is correct, no exception is made - but did you check the FAQ? Maybe they changed the wording, else he is correct D:

scruffyryan
25-03-2011, 22:39
If there is a conflict in the BRB and one of the army books the army book takes precedence.

IE: the BRB says you cant, but the slaves rule says you can, slave rule wins as it is in the army book.

That rule is somewhere in the brb just hunt that down.

Kalandros
26-03-2011, 10:54
Yes but does the slave rules clearly spell out an exception or not is the problem right now.

Beastlord
26-03-2011, 11:19
From a fluff perspective you certainly should be able to....

Dante blackfur
26-03-2011, 18:33
From a fluff perspective you certainly should be able to....

To bad fluff doesn't work like rules :p the skaven book says you can "Shoot into Combat involving Slaves but no other skaven" So unfortunately its doesn't make exceptions for templates. :( but check the FAQ I haven't read it in a while.

monstallion
26-03-2011, 19:41
Where does that preclude templates?? As long as you are firing them in to the combat its perfectly fine. AB is specific and the slaves rule has precedence here.

The shame is I can't target slaves outside of combat, can't have any living through a battle!:shifty:

scruffyryan
26-03-2011, 21:04
Yes the only precursor is "is it a shooting attack...wft is...you can shoot into slaves.

Maephestos
28-03-2011, 14:09
Well, technically, no, you can shoot into a 'combat' involving slaves (and only slaves). The FAQ does not add any exceptions for template weapons, so you cannot place a template weapon so that it could hit the slaves themselves. Regardless of the fluff, or even rules from previous editions, the rules say you can't do it.

jaxom
29-03-2011, 19:07
Maephestos has hit the nail on the head.

Regardless of fluff (which says you have a slave barbeque at will) the rules do not allow you to intentionally target the Slaves themselves. Expendable allows you to shoot into the combat but does not exempt you from the rule stating that you cannot intentionally place a template where it will hit your own troops.

Now, the WFT does not have the text of a cannon shot so there is no "cannot possibly hit". It's just like a mortar or stone thrower template. What we've wound up doing in our group is saying that you have to have a result (other than misfire) which puts the template on only enemy units. Then if the dice are unfriendly you hit your Slaves (just like scattering a plague mortar onto them).

That's about the friendliest thing we could come up with barring some actual thought on the part of GW when they write the next FAQ. Personally, I think that Expendable should be rewritten so that you can actually target them with anything including melee attacks which would bring it more into alignment with the fluff and would not hurt playability as long as you continue to avoid randomizing hits.

(You gotta keep randomizing out or you wind up throwing slaves at monsters and then hitting them with WFTs so that they can all get lit up and jump on the monster causing multiple wounds which is just so very wrong.)

scruffyryan
29-03-2011, 19:45
Well, technically, no, you can shoot into a 'combat' involving slaves (and only slaves). The FAQ does not add any exceptions for template weapons, so you cannot place a template weapon so that it could hit the slaves themselves. Regardless of the fluff, or even rules from previous editions, the rules say you can't do it.



Reread page 11 of the iob rulebook

The army book says you can do it, it overrules the BRB, there is no comment on explicit contradiction or no, it says if you have a conflict between a rule in an army book and in the BRB the army book takes precedence.

The army book says you can shoot into close combat with slaves, the WFT is a shooting attack that occurs doing the shooting phase.

It doesn't need faqed, it needs people to read the damned base rulebook.

Zed!
29-03-2011, 21:17
Reread page 11 of the iob rulebook

The army book says you can do it, it overrules the BRB, there is no comment on explicit contradiction or no, it says if you have a conflict between a rule in an army book and in the BRB the army book takes precedence.

The army book says you can shoot into close combat with slaves, the WFT is a shooting attack that occurs doing the shooting phase.

It doesn't need faqed, it needs people to read the damned base rulebook.

You're wrong. The Army Book says that you can target shooting attacks into a combat that includes slaves. This overrides the general rule that you may not target an enemy unit that is in close combat with one of your units. Hence, you are allowed to target a Plagueclaw Catapult on an enemy unit that is in close combat with slaves.

The Army Book does not say that you can target shooting attacks onto your own units, even if they are slaves. Hence the general rule that you may not place a template such that it would harm your own troops is not overridden. Hence, you are not allowed to target a Plagueclaw Catapult in such a way that it actually targets the slaves.

scruffyryan
29-03-2011, 21:49
We aren't talking about a plagueclaw catapult, we're talking about the WFT, the wft fires at a target, unlike a stone thrower, thus any template contact with your own unit is accidental*. The stone thrower has very seperate rules about how their template is placed, which explicitly spell out no touching a friendly.

Like i said, rulebook.

(accidental for the values of we know how the template is shaped and we can pre measure everything but by god we were shooting at their bsb)

jaxom
30-03-2011, 19:03
Ummm. Sorry, man. The rules is the rules and I *have* read the rulebook, many times. As I play Skaven I have hunted until my eyes bled for a way out of this one.

P. 39 of the BRB is pretty explicit and covers the rules in two separate paragraphs. One, you cannot fire into melee (this is removed by the Expendable rule). Two, a template weapon may not intentionally fire at its own troops. There's no exception in that for specific types of weapons or anything of the sort. In fact, if a Dwarf roasted a bunch of his own Warriors to wipe you out you'd probably get pretty pissy.

The problem is that fluff and rules ain't the same thing. Further, GW has usually *sucked* at writing rules that actually follow through on their fluff (sometimes because matching fluff would be unplayable, other times because they're nits).

No matter how much you wish it said otherwise, the Expendable rule does not address templates and templates are a separate rule on p. 39.