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Vepr
25-03-2011, 19:11
I have just gotten back into fantasy again after I stopped playing in 4th. I am sure this topic has been hashed out before but I did not see any recent posts on it. There are rumors of OK or maybe Brets coming up next but out of the remaining armies that need updates what is the order of need in peoples opinions? We know that GW does not necessarily look at need when it comes to updates but I am interested in what other people think "should" come next after TK due to table top needs alone. I have heard everything from the ever popular wood elves all the way to Beastmen locally when I ask this question. :p

UberBeast
25-03-2011, 19:13
Wood Elves or Bretonnians are my top choices. Both armies were hit pretty hard in 8th and could use a revamp pretty soon. Ogres are also fairly high on the list.

Korraz
25-03-2011, 19:15
Wood Elves. Chariots and Skirmishers both got royally shafted. Their playstyle simply doesn't exist any more and they have lots of dead ends in the book, but a lot of expansion potential (beastmasters, chariots, forest monsters...) Then Ogrekingdoms. Bretonnians took a blow, but knights are still very functional, thanks to Lance Formation.

Sinnertje
25-03-2011, 19:21
Possibly Orcs n Goblins...
Otherwise Skaven, or Empire, maybe Lizardmen...

On a more serious note though, Ogre Kingdoms, because I couldn't care less about WE and Brets.

Stymie Jackson
25-03-2011, 19:23
Wood Elves, hands down. Then Ogres (cause they still got it rough), and then Brets.

Then gimme some Dawi love after all those are done.

Colonel Kolm
25-03-2011, 19:24
Orcs and Goblins, i want magic items so i can not have a cookie cutter army.

but in all seriousness i would say bretonians as their book is incredibly old compared to i think every other race, they lack any kind of diversity(from what ive seen which too be fair is only a few people playing them on a whim as a 2nd army mostly). wood elves while a tad outdated I think could survive a little bit longer if they needed too. but thats just my 2 cents

Trains_Get_Robbed
25-03-2011, 19:27
Wood Elves then my Brets. I would actually like breaking other core infantry on the charge with a 15 man unit of KoE with 3 charcters for once.

Both armies are terribly performing in either combination of playstyle or outdated rules or both.

GodlessM
25-03-2011, 20:42
Oh wow, people are really trying to say OnG need a new book right after their new book njust came out? Seems Whineseer is striking an all time low.

Sinnertje
25-03-2011, 20:43
Oh wow, people are really trying to say OnG need a new book right after their new book njust came out? Seems Whineseer is striking an all time low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Vepr
25-03-2011, 20:58
Oh wow, people are really trying to say OnG need a new book right after their new book njust came out? Seems Whineseer is striking an all time low.

He was joking but I have heard people say in all seriousness that Beastmen need one already even though they had a recent codex release I believe. I have not played against them yet but I have watched a few games they have been in and even though I have been away from the game for awhile and I am new to 8th edition did not see any serious deficiencies watching them against Rats and VC.

Forsak3n
25-03-2011, 21:02
Ogre kingdoms for sure. One purple sun and half the army is gone thanks to I 2.
They defintly need a points rework.

Caitsidhe
25-03-2011, 21:32
I would be more inclined toward GW if they did the following:

1. Establish a release schedule for books and keep to it.
2. Said schedule would always go in the order of oldest next, period.
3. Make sure that all armies have their new book to match the current edition within the same year of the new edition's release.

None of the above is impossible or even difficult. One of Games Workshop's competitors in the biz is doing so. Go figure. However, returning to the topic at hand more directly, the following armies should be next and in this order:

1. Wood Elves
2. Brettonians
3. Ogre Kingdoms

*The above list is based on need rather than oldest.

Ronin[XiC]
25-03-2011, 21:42
Ogre kingdoms for sure. One purple sun and half the army is gone thanks to I 2.
They defintly need a points rework.

I2 = third of the army dead, not half of it :P

Forsak3n
25-03-2011, 21:43
;5413096']I2 = third of the army dead, not half of it :P

it always seems like half....bad dice.

Tymell
25-03-2011, 21:52
I have just gotten back into fantasy again after I stopped playing in 4th. I am sure this topic has been hashed out before but I did not see any recent posts on it. There are rumors of OK or maybe Brets coming up next but out of the remaining armies that need updates what is the order of need in peoples opinions? We know that GW does not necessarily look at need when it comes to updates but I am interested in what other people think "should" come next after TK due to table top needs alone. I have heard everything from the ever popular wood elves all the way to Beastmen locally when I ask this question. :p

As many will say, Wood Elves and Bretonnians probably need it most. Ogres are actually older than Wood Elves, but don't need upgrading as badly, though they're rumoured for later this year anyway. Dwarfs are the only other currently 6th edition army, but their last book is often considered a borderline one between 6th and 7th.

Dark Reaper
25-03-2011, 21:56
;5413096']I2 = third of the army dead, not half of it :P

two thirds ;)

vinny t
25-03-2011, 22:02
Well I think there are the two main ones Wood Elves and then Ogres. The way I see i, both of their books limit you into playing a very set way. With ogres, it's deathstars, with woodelves, it's GG and Tree Kin/Man spam.

Also I think VC need an update too. I'm getting sick of seeing 2 ghoul hordes and a GG horde every time I play them.

Kevlar
25-03-2011, 22:29
Brets, since they are my #2 army, and one of the cooler WFB armies. OK and woodies need it too, but they can wait!

Brother Alexos
25-03-2011, 22:40
I would think Wood elves, then Brets. Ogre Kingdoms are still pretty scary for me, even though I play beasts alot.

Gazak Blacktoof
25-03-2011, 22:48
I'd like brets to be redone soon, with improved infantry, so that I can use my war of the roses troops as a bret army.

The bearded one
25-03-2011, 23:18
Tk is up next, after that the only 6th edition books are:
- Ogre kingdoms
- Wood elves
- Bretonnia
- Dwarfs

The dwarfs can wait a while. We're finally a good army again after being low in 7th and I guess most of us dwarf players are more fearful of the nerfhammer than excited about a new book.

Ogres can certainly use an update, though the new rules for monstrous infantry did quite a lot for them and they can use vast hordes of gnoblars as steadfast skavenslave wannabee's.

Bretonnians got hit bad by being a cavalry army relying on the charge and with low strenght without their lances giving them a str bonus. They want to break the enemy in 1 turn or their odds are not good. However apart from chaos knights they're possibly the only cavalry still very effective against blocks because of the lance rule, giving them a lot of ranks to cancel steadfast with, which is a nice blessing ( pun intended ) for them. Also they have cheap peasants.

Wood elves I personally think need it the most. They are a skirmisher based army and if dryads ( for example ) manage to butcher a ranked unit down from 40 to 5 guys, they're still steadfast. Treekin did become awesome for them, but their other ranked units are just too damn squishy for any close combat. I think I'd like to see ranked up dryads, thay'd be pretty cool. It's be like a little moving forest/shrubbery on a movement tray.

I'd say this order:
Wood elves --> bretonnia --> Ogre kingdoms --> dwarfs ( I think dwarfs are content to let someone else go first though, we don't mind )

bluemage
25-03-2011, 23:30
I think wood elves need it the most, but I would rather they not be updated next. They need more than just a minor update like what O&G got with their new book. I think it would take a lot of work on the part of the author to get the combat skirmisher WE army to work right and I don't think GW has a way of making them work. So I would prefer they get ignored til someone has a way of fixing them.

So the Order I would want is brets ----> Ogres -----> dwarfs

WoodElfGeneral
25-03-2011, 23:59
Wood elves need a book bad. Are entire fluff and tactics system got chucked out the window pretty much.:mad:

However, the TK are next, then the OK most likely and then probably the Brets because us Wood Elves are going to be tough to fix like mentioned before, and need probably until early to middle of 2012, hopefully no later;)

By the way, this thread has been done like a billion times

Minsc
26-03-2011, 00:01
Wood Elves needs it the most, it's not even a competition.
They got 1 decent core, 1 decent special and 1 decent rare - so much for diversity.

Haravikk
26-03-2011, 00:18
Ogres are still pretty good, vulnerable in some areas but still very competitive in others so while they're due an update they don't desperately need it.

Wood Elves definitely do though. Bretonnians are likewise due an update, but thanks to the lance formation and Men at Arms making an excellent big infantry or horde unit they are very competitive with a bit of work, with trebuchets helping a bunch too (though not required to win).

Wood Elves can still win, but most lists that relied on Dryads for the bulk of combat performance have been forced to make big changes to stay competitive. Dryads are still good, but as a frontal charger they're just terrible as step-up and no ranks means even with the best of rolling the enemy will grind them down or at least go nowhere.
A lot of their units were over-costed to some degree in 7th as well and 8th hasn't done some of them a favour either. Still a good, fun army, and capable of winning, but not the most easy-going list right now.

Colonel Kolm
26-03-2011, 00:24
from GodlessM


Oh wow, people are really trying to say OnG need a new book right after their new book njust came out? Seems Whineseer is striking an all time low.

i hope you know i was being facetious. if you are not aware of what that means you can look it up here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious

that being said i would really like to see bretonians for my best friend who uses them as his army and for the other long suffering bretonian players, but looking at some of the stuff on wood elves(which admittedly i dont see that much of) i can see why they would need an update badly and would be glad to see them get one asap.

sulla
26-03-2011, 07:56
Wood elves; they don't play the same game as everyone else.

Then Dwarves; War machines are too powerful, elites are too weak and there's simply no reason in 8th to field their staple troop (warriors with shields) as opposed to great weapon troops.

Wesser
26-03-2011, 09:58
Brets book was bad the moment it came out. 4 cavalry units that are way too similar and overpriced men-at-arms (dont know why people glorify them....they suck hard)

It's an army where the trebuchet and archers are the best units....

Woodies jut got the problem that Eternal guards are too vulnerable for melee, that waywatchers are overpriced and that their skirmishers aint just a move forward and charge choice.

Woodies need plastic sets more than a new book

Darnok
26-03-2011, 10:22
I feel that both Wood Elves and Bretonnians deserve it most. But I have some kind of gut feeling that others will come first.

Harwammer
26-03-2011, 11:28
Wood Elves needs it the most, it's not even a competition.
They got 1 decent core, 1 decent special and 1 decent rare - so much for diversity.

Yeah, but you can make this argument for tonnes of armies... Beastmen don't have a decent core choice, neither do they have a decent rare. It's just harpies harpies and bestigor bestigor.

I think every army that doesn't allow their bsb to take shiekds, etc needs updating. I guess it could be done by faq but it's a good opportunity to get some 6th ed books redone.

Once the 6th ed books and early 7th are updated VC need re-doing(ghoulspam is boring). Finally if GW can decide on a decent niche for Bm they should be redone otherwise they should be put back in the warriors armybook or used as an alternative miniature line for warriors.

I think it's really bad that only 2 people showed up with the most recent army book at gw's most recent tournament!

Haravikk
26-03-2011, 11:49
overpriced men-at-arms (dont know why people glorify them....they suck hard)
Aren't they the cheapest Strength 4 horde unit you can field (tied with Empire Halberdiers)? Against Halberdiers their Weapon Skill is a bit of a blow, but they have shields included which helps against shooting, previously they would have been better value as the shield meant they had an option of hand weapon & shield in combat. So I think they're about right personally, could probably lose the shields and go to 4 points each now though, maybe have shields as a 1/2 point option.

But they're not bad at all.

BramGaunt
26-03-2011, 11:58
I feel that both Wood Elves and Bretonnians deserve it most. But I have some kind of gut feeling that others will come first.

You shall be proven right.

shelfunit.
26-03-2011, 12:05
You shall be proven right.

Would the "gut" part of his feeling be key here? :shifty:

Awilla the Hun
26-03-2011, 12:06
The man at arms doesn't have the option of hand weapon and shield any more. They are indeed somewhat overpriced (clanrats are fundamentally better in every way, and cost the same when fully kitted out.) Still, this isn't such a significant issue if you acknowledge that their job is to die standing, provide rank bonus, and hold out until you can get some flank charges in. This they do magnificently. But they deserve to be glorified, for they are fighting a truly revolutionary war! Bretonnians are a perfectly good army book, certainly capable of taking on Lizardmen, Chaos, and other formidable opponents. Trebuchets hit hard, cavalry charges can also if combined with infantry, and it's also surprisingly resilient; almost every Bretonnian unit has enough numbers, armour, ward save, and/or, if deployed right, leadership, to withstand anything short of ludicrously high end spells... but that's what the Silver Mirror's for, and the Damsels with their magic resistance! These attempts to spread Defeatism and Cowardice by my fellow posters will be considered extremely seriously by the Commissariat for Public Safety.

I'd say that Wood Elves need it most. (Precious few hordes, for one thing, and painfully fragile; although, looking at how their wardancers ripped up my men at arms from the front rank, I'm not sure how neccessary this truly is.)

Forsak3n
26-03-2011, 13:12
Would the "gut" part of his feeling be key here? :shifty:

i hope it is my gluttonous warriors, long have they way over priced...only to be taken out by a horde of dwarf warriors or empire halbadiers(a dwarf warrior with GW hits at Str5, making LA and IF useless) or even worse is to be wiped out by purple sun :cries:

they need a major point cost/stat or equipment redo into order to fit in with current game mechanics like hordes(we can only make one, and if we do we dont have many other strong units) or the magic phase(slaughter masters and butchers are waaay over costed, a lvl 2 NG shaman is only worth 170 slaves)

an irongut(OK elite) is no different then a kitted out ogre bull.an Irongut has Heavy Armor and a Great Weapon and a bull has Light Armor, Ogre Club and Ironfist(so that is a whopping 5pts more for a GW). thats still like 3 times more then a dwarf warrior with GW.

and yes, i know that ogres have 3 attacks and 3 wounds, but that really isnt worth that much when you take into account uber spells, panic tests(less models starting out in a unit means fewer to kill until test is triggered).

okay, thats enough ranting from me :D

Kevlar
26-03-2011, 13:52
Men in tights aren't too bad, but they really should be a point cheaper at least. All armies got decent point decreases from their 6th edition books. That is the biggest problem with the older edition books, you are automatically at a 10-20 percent disadvantage in point cost. That goes for Brets, Woodies, Ogres, and Dwarves.

giant stegadon
26-03-2011, 14:44
I think the long held rumor is that its Orges after TK. With the new Dark Eldar models showing so much motion I can't wait for Wood Elves though.

Harwammer
26-03-2011, 16:42
All armies got decent point decreases from their 6th edition books
Not all armies got substantial points drops. Some got points hikes.

Xerkics
26-03-2011, 17:17
Dwarfs don't need a new book as much as desperately need plastic elites.

Voss
26-03-2011, 17:40
Wood Elves or Bretonnians are my top choices. Both armies were hit pretty hard in 8th and could use a revamp pretty soon. Ogres are also fairly high on the list.

As far as Brets go, they were impacted heavily by the 8th ed. changes, but they were mostly improvements. Maintaining 3 rank cav units is big, the improvements to peasants are amazing, pegasus knights are even more ridiculous, trebuchets are one of the best stone throwers in the game (especially for the cost), and they have access to some of the best spell lores in the game.

Wood elves and Ogres should really have priority for the next books, once GW figures out what they want to do with them and the game. Brets could stand some expansion and diversity, but the army list is quite functional as is.

The bearded one
26-03-2011, 17:41
Dwarfs don't need a new book as much as desperately need plastic elites.

+23

Dwarfs are currently better than they've been the entirity of 7th, we can wait a while. All that'd be nice would be plastic hammerers/ironbreakers/slayers, any combination of those.
..but we can wait....
O yes, we can wait..

We're a patient race



Did I mention we can wait?

Makaber
26-03-2011, 17:56
Wood Elves primarily. Then probably Ogres.

After that, I'd say Beastmen. I don't think the book is as much a failure as people claim, but the internal balance is horrible. It seems all the bones thrown to Beastmen players to give the army an identity has fallen flat with 8th edition. A brand new book wouldn't even be neccesary, just a couple tweaks for a "Version 1.5", Dark Elves/Eldar style.

Dwarves and Brets are old books, sure, but they certainly play better than the damn Beastmen.

freddieyu
26-03-2011, 18:00
Agreed....

Wood elves for sure.....Ogres next, Brets then Beastmen...

vcassano
27-03-2011, 09:10
Wood Elves primarily. Then probably Ogres.

After that, I'd say Beastmen. I don't think the book is as much a failure as people claim, but the internal balance is horrible. It seems all the bones thrown to Beastmen players to give the army an identity has fallen flat with 8th edition. A brand new book wouldn't even be neccesary, just a couple tweaks for a "Version 1.5", Dark Elves/Eldar style.


Really? Given the variety of Beastmen lists that are around, I think it is one of hte better internally balanced books. Except the rare slots.

bluemage
27-03-2011, 16:27
Beastmen can be competative, but I feel that the beastmen book is the most poorly written army book that GW has released in a great many years. I think it needs a version 1.5 or a total rewrite. It won't happen as GW has shown over the years that they hate the army. Call it whining all you want, but beastmen got screwed over with their army book.

Rosstifer
27-03-2011, 17:04
Na we didn't. Well. If you ignore the rares we didn't. A great many people on various tournament scenes are rocking beasts to great effect. When was the last time you saw Dwarfs, WE, Brets or Ogre's on a podium? Heck, even O&G?

dragonet111
27-03-2011, 17:13
I want to be a little self centered for this one and I hope it's going to be the Bretonnia armybook, then the Dwarf armybook.

JDman
27-03-2011, 18:40
They should come out with another orcs and goblins book

Lorcryst
27-03-2011, 19:54
They should come out with another orcs and goblins book

You should come out with another joke.



On topic, Wood Elves need it badly, their skirmishing playing style is basically dead in 8th ed, but the only "certified" rumour says that it's TK then OK then "who knows" ...

That said, I'll be glad when they redo the OK army, I've been considering one for a long time, but I can't work out an army list that pleases me with the current book.

vcassano
27-03-2011, 20:14
Na we didn't. Well. If you ignore the rares we didn't. A great many people on various tournament scenes are rocking beasts to great effect. When was the last time you saw Dwarfs, WE, Brets or Ogre's on a podium? Heck, even O&G?

Yes. The beasts are actually one of the better books around in my opinion. The reason they are looked down upon is because they struggled in 7th, I think, due to being designed with 8th in mind. They have the best internal balance of all the armies, in my view;

Characters - Beastlord is great for leadership/enhancement with stubborn, GBS is good for magic, Doombull is a killing machine

Core Ungors are cheap and solid enough, Gors are brutal in synergy with magic (Beasts especially), chariots are cheap and nasty, raiders are good throwaway/annoyances and hounds are hounds.

Special - Bestigors are brutal, so are Minotaurs but neither is unstoppable in of themselves, Harpies are great, fast diverters, razorgor chariots are tough and brutal, Razorgors are ok and surprisingly effective. Centigors aren't too great though.

Rare - None are great, particularly, but all have their uses.

It is a great book that is very well balanced in of itself. The only problem is that it has no obvious choice. No single, killer unit. It requires strategy and synergy. But it is effective. The fluff, however!

bluemage
27-03-2011, 20:25
I don't want to derail the thread, on beastmen but in my opinion the book is poorly written. The stories are awful, and a lot of the character was removed from the army. I know that you can make a competative list. I know a lot of books have lousy choices, but beastmen have a lot of naft units, the rare choices, minos, centigors and ranked ungors. But what I hate most about the book is the poorly written and uninteresting background and the removal of all the character from the army.

The bearded one
27-03-2011, 20:52
I think they actually managed to turn beastmen into a credible threat in the background, instead of chaos's meatshield infantrymen.

Though at the rate beastmen destroy villages and **** on banners, you'd think there'd be none left within a year.

It's not a very (overly ) powerful army, but simply 'right', therefore it's seen as weak. When you think about beastmen do you have a specific unit or combo in mind that you'd fear beyond imagining? With most armies you can think of something, but not really with beastmen. Mino horde maybe? But that's hideously expensive. With skaven I think of template terror, slaves and their warmachines and beasts, with chaos I'm thinking chosen deathstar, daemons I think.. well.. nearly everything.. etc. But I think it's quite a solid book. I kinda like beasts and I wouldn't mind building and army to prove everyone wrong about them.. if I wasn't so busy already..

DJElam
27-03-2011, 20:54
I would have to say ether Wood Elves or Ogres.

I don't play WE but understand that they took a big blow in 8th ed. And with all this mysterious forests around, the woods are not a safe place to be.

Now I play ogres so I know much better why they need a new book. Ogres are over priced with low Initiative and no save to speak of. They fall to instant death spells like PS too easy.

One of the two should be done next, myself I hope it's Ogres as they are my army.

chaospantz
27-03-2011, 22:00
I think OK needs an upgrade the most over bret's and WE, but im a little bias about that. Most likely though it will be an army like deamons or some other popular army over what needs to be done the most.

Zoolander
28-03-2011, 00:53
Wood Elves or Bretonnians are my top choices. Both armies were hit pretty hard in 8th and could use a revamp pretty soon. Ogres are also fairly high on the list.

100% truth.

Forsak3n
28-03-2011, 05:30
WE needs a rules re-write(skirmishing, etc) which is a huge thing. TK and Ogres need some points changes, ogres need a standard armor save, both their magic systems need to fit in current game mechanics.

so i see TK and Ogres being done just because the changes are similar and they can fit more updates in the year and spend time on WE or even Brets who need more work done.
rumor-mongers correct me if im wrong.

someone2040
28-03-2011, 07:20
I'm surprised at all the people saying Beastmen. The only crap stuff in the book are the rares and potentially Centigors. Centigors are just on the failure end of what 8th ed did to Cavalry.
Think people have got 7th ed Beastmen to stuck in their brains.

Back to the topic at hand. I would say Wood Elves certainly could use an update after Tomb Kings. As has been mentioned though, seems that Ogres may get an update beforehand though.

Wesser
28-03-2011, 07:34
Aren't they the cheapest Strength 4 horde unit you can field (tied with Empire Halberdiers)? Against Halberdiers their Weapon Skill is a bit of a blow, but they have shields included which helps against shooting, previously they would have been better value as the shield meant they had an option of hand weapon & shield in combat. So I think they're about right personally, could probably lose the shields and go to 4 points each now though, maybe have shields as a 1/2 point option.

But they're not bad at all.

Well the empire halberdier got ws 3, LD 7 and the state troops special rules. Quite a lot better than a shield.

Problem is that any other core infantry at comparable points value (dark elves, halberdiers, orcs, clanrats etc. ) will give them a run for their money.

Their only usefulness is that we got no real alternative. I sometimes use them in the way empire players use detachments....as throwaway stuff

Jind_Singh
28-03-2011, 08:42
I actually go against the grain here - release EMPIRE after TK - why?

Well all it needs is:

1) New Plastic Knights
2) New metal Characters for some of the more dated characters (looking at you Karl Franz)

And so really only crew kept busy are book writers. They can hash this out quick smart, the modelers won't be too taxed, which means they get extra time to work on another book OR make more models for books which are missing some of their range.

BUT THEN FOLLOW THIS UP REALLY QUICKLY WITH ANOTHER ARMY BOOK RELEASE OF AN ARMY THAT NEEDS IT - LIKE BRETS, WOODELVES, ETC

I'd rather see lots of books come out quick smart than rushing an army that needs time and attention and love to make it a successful release.

1) Orcs & Goblins (Done)
2) Tomb Kings
3) Empire (quick and easy, in background start working on Wood Elves)
4) Ogre Kingdoms (quick and easy, all they need are plastic Rhinox, a woolly mammoth, some characters)
5) Wood Elves (do a decent renewal - on scale of Dark Eldar)
6) Daemons of Chaos (SUPER EASY - plastic Plague Bearers and it's done, some characters, plus an easy release to do economically after expensive Wood Elves release)
7) Lizard men (Again SUPER easy to re-do, plus economically easy, just add a huge dino and DONE!)

But you could push out SEVEN quick releases in a rapid time - and then allow for some serious time and effort to be put into other books!

You could be HALFWAY through the armies in just 15 months (as GW doesn't do a release over Christmas)...1.5 years do half the armies!!

Another 1.5yrs for other half...

Three years

And then 1-2 years of having all the books done for a current edition! Then the remaining 2 years they bombard us with second waves/third waves to keep their sales rolling in.

But would be awesome!! :D

scarletsquig
28-03-2011, 09:27
Chaos Dwarfs.

Lorcryst
28-03-2011, 09:56
Chaos Dwarfs.

Alas, not gonna happen in this life.

logan054
28-03-2011, 09:59
I actually go against the grain here - release EMPIRE after TK - why?

I actually agree, new plastic kits knights we be awesome for these guys, not just that bu t I think they need the dispel dice removed from warrior priests and archlecters.

Korraz
28-03-2011, 10:09
I actually go against the grain here - release EMPIRE after TK - why?

Well all it needs is:

1) New Plastic Knights
2) New metal Characters for some of the more dated characters (looking at you Karl Franz)

And so really only crew kept busy are book writers. They can hash this out quick smart, the modelers won't be too taxed, which means they get extra time to work on another book OR make more models for books which are missing some of their range.

BUT THEN FOLLOW THIS UP REALLY QUICKLY WITH ANOTHER ARMY BOOK RELEASE OF AN ARMY THAT NEEDS IT - LIKE BRETS, WOODELVES, ETC

I'd rather see lots of books come out quick smart than rushing an army that needs time and attention and love to make it a successful release.

1) Orcs & Goblins (Done)
2) Tomb Kings
3) Empire (quick and easy, in background start working on Wood Elves)
4) Ogre Kingdoms (quick and easy, all they need are plastic Rhinox, a woolly mammoth, some characters)
5) Wood Elves (do a decent renewal - on scale of Dark Eldar)
6) Daemons of Chaos (SUPER EASY - plastic Plague Bearers and it's done, some characters, plus an easy release to do economically after expensive Wood Elves release)
7) Lizard men (Again SUPER easy to re-do, plus economically easy, just add a huge dino and DONE!)

But you could push out SEVEN quick releases in a rapid time - and then allow for some serious time and effort to be put into other books!

You could be HALFWAY through the armies in just 15 months (as GW doesn't do a release over Christmas)...1.5 years do half the armies!!

Another 1.5yrs for other half...

Three years

And then 1-2 years of having all the books done for a current edition! Then the remaining 2 years they bombard us with second waves/third waves to keep their sales rolling in.

But would be awesome!! :D


Add in "No books in summer", 40k and LotR, a month or two where terrain or only some odd miniatures are released, second/third waves and you have pretty much the time period we have now.

Jind_Singh
28-03-2011, 10:20
Add in "No books in summer", 40k and LotR, a month or two where terrain or only some odd miniatures are released, second/third waves and you have pretty much the time period we have now.

Ah but that's why 7 books over 15 months - in between they can mess around with 40k/WOTR releases, etc.

They don't need as much as Warhammer right now - it's a new edition with old ed books - so it really needs a lot of TLC to keep the game going - else they could kill off Warhammer - which would be dreadful!

Haravikk
28-03-2011, 10:45
else they could kill off Warhammer - which would be dreadful!
I think that's massively extreme, Warhammer's still doing well, at worst some people will find it more difficult to play their outdated armies, and stick to another one if they have an alternative, or just struggle along anyway. Some few people might take a break until their army is updated, but I doubt that's very many people really.

There's plenty of Wood Elf players for example that, though they're annoyed that a difficult to use army has become even harder to use, still play it on principal and can pull out victories and have a good time anyway. Only change is that when they lose they have a legitimate excuse as to why :)

Forsak3n
28-03-2011, 11:03
I think that's massively extreme, Warhammer's still doing well, at worst some people will find it more difficult to play their outdated armies, and stick to another one if they have an alternative, or just struggle along anyway. Some few people might take a break until their army is updated, but I doubt that's very many people really.

There's plenty of Wood Elf players for example that, though they're annoyed that a difficult to use army has become even harder to use, still play it on principal and can pull out victories and have a good time anyway. Only change is that when they lose they have a legitimate excuse as to why :)

in Jind's defense, the fewer options out there that are "viable" in competitative settings(even friendly gets intense as the object of the game is to win) the more people will be playing the same armies, heck i even went back to OK just because there is 10 new OnG players in my area. but the point is the more you play your own army, see the same things, the more bored you get and the more likely you are to take a break from the game. definitly considering the increasing cost of models/books/etc and new models and units being made it is harder to "jump ship".

i quit warhammer 8 years ago due to seeing the same players with the same armies all the time and once they kept having to cheat due to be knowing how they played(their tactics and stuff) i left for awhile.

Memnos
28-03-2011, 11:04
Bite your tongue! Centigor are the (ahem)workhorses of my army.

But I do agree with you. The Beastmen book is surprisingly effective. I'd have liked it if the Rares were about 25 points less, but c'est la vie. They're more than made up for by 55 point Razorgor units that hunt down characters.


Yes. The beasts are actually one of the better books around in my opinion. The reason they are looked down upon is because they struggled in 7th, I think, due to being designed with 8th in mind. They have the best internal balance of all the armies, in my view;

Characters - Beastlord is great for leadership/enhancement with stubborn, GBS is good for magic, Doombull is a killing machine

Core Ungors are cheap and solid enough, Gors are brutal in synergy with magic (Beasts especially), chariots are cheap and nasty, raiders are good throwaway/annoyances and hounds are hounds.

Special - Bestigors are brutal, so are Minotaurs but neither is unstoppable in of themselves, Harpies are great, fast diverters, razorgor chariots are tough and brutal, Razorgors are ok and surprisingly effective. Centigors aren't too great though.

Rare - None are great, particularly, but all have their uses.

It is a great book that is very well balanced in of itself. The only problem is that it has no obvious choice. No single, killer unit. It requires strategy and synergy. But it is effective. The fluff, however!

Daniel36
28-03-2011, 11:36
It's good to see so many people wanting to see Wood Elves updated. I am sure GW will pick up on that. I also saw some good suggestions. Chariots definitely need to come back. I love what they did for High Elves and I am sure that a new plastic WE Chariot kit would be the absolute bomb! Beastmasters, YES! Let them come is all I say!

Lorcryst
28-03-2011, 11:41
(even friendly gets intense as the object of the game is to win)

Sorry, but no.

The object of the game is to have fun, not winning at all costs.

I had fun while getting beaten with my NG last saturday, for example ... that does not mean I didn't try to win, but fun was my first priority.

Forsak3n
28-03-2011, 11:50
Sorry, but no.

The object of the game is to have fun, not winning at all costs.

I had fun while getting beaten with my NG last saturday, for example ... that does not mean I didn't try to win, but fun was my first priority.

the OBJECT or GOAL of every game(sports, board games, etc) is to win, the POINT of the game is to have fun.

if you read the rest of that post you shall see how i quit the game due to people cheating to 'win at all costs', 8 years ago. i am fully aware of the difference between fun and "powergaming". i have great games even though i lose, but i refuse to play those who bend the rules, cheat, fudge rolls, etc as it is no fun.

so dont quote(or take) things out of context :D

Lorcryst
28-03-2011, 11:52
I stand corrected ... that parenthesis just hit a raw nerve of mine, sorry :p

Forsak3n
28-03-2011, 12:25
I stand corrected ... that parenthesis just hit a raw nerve of mine, sorry :p

my gaming groups version of intense is campaign battles that span about a month where every game changes the next, mix that with beer and it can go from fun to drunken/intense fun. i tend not to clarify what i mean due to the lack of sleep i tend to get. i understand every local area is different in terms of game meta, points, leisure, and tourney type settings. i just want to go on record for the laid back wargamer i am, lol. and for picking challenging armies :D

but back to the Original Topic seeing as it has been derailed, im saying OK since we have been getting hints and rumors from the regular rumor-mongers here since...march? right? so its safe to assume unless they are throwing us off. as to what is next is all a matter of opinion until we get a hint or two. we have 2 armies that need it and hopefully it shall be done before next summer.

Vazalaar
28-03-2011, 12:59
I actually go against the grain here - release EMPIRE after TK - why?

Well all it needs is:

1) New Plastic Knights
2) New metal Characters for some of the more dated characters (looking at you Karl Franz)

And so really only crew kept busy are book writers. They can hash this out quick smart, the modelers won't be too taxed, which means they get extra time to work on another book OR make more models for books which are missing some of their range.

BUT THEN FOLLOW THIS UP REALLY QUICKLY WITH ANOTHER ARMY BOOK RELEASE OF AN ARMY THAT NEEDS IT - LIKE BRETS, WOODELVES, ETC

I'd rather see lots of books come out quick smart than rushing an army that needs time and attention and love to make it a successful release.

1) Orcs & Goblins (Done)
2) Tomb Kings
3) Empire (quick and easy, in background start working on Wood Elves)
4) Ogre Kingdoms (quick and easy, all they need are plastic Rhinox, a woolly mammoth, some characters)
5) Wood Elves (do a decent renewal - on scale of Dark Eldar)
6) Daemons of Chaos (SUPER EASY - plastic Plague Bearers and it's done, some characters, plus an easy release to do economically after expensive Wood Elves release)
7) Lizard men (Again SUPER easy to re-do, plus economically easy, just add a huge dino and DONE!)

But you could push out SEVEN quick releases in a rapid time - and then allow for some serious time and effort to be put into other books!

You could be HALFWAY through the armies in just 15 months (as GW doesn't do a release over Christmas)...1.5 years do half the armies!!

Another 1.5yrs for other half...

Three years

And then 1-2 years of having all the books done for a current edition! Then the remaining 2 years they bombard us with second waves/third waves to keep their sales rolling in.

But would be awesome!! :D

Sounds logical, Let us hope!:)

Gharof von Carstein
28-03-2011, 13:08
Ogres first, beastmen need a hefty errata or complete rewrite, GIVE US RARE MODELS! and make those rares 75 points less while your at it!

I do need to say that WE and brets need it as well. After them, VC for sure. Yes i own 120 ghouls, dont care to use those every game do...

Korraz
28-03-2011, 15:03
in Jind's defense, the fewer options out there that are "viable" in competitative settings(even friendly gets intense as the object of the game is to win) the more people will be playing the same armies, heck i even went back to OK just because there is 10 new OnG players in my area. but the point is the more you play your own army, see the same things, the more bored you get and the more likely you are to take a break from the game. definitly considering the increasing cost of models/books/etc and new models and units being made it is harder to "jump ship".

i quit warhammer 8 years ago due to seeing the same players with the same armies all the time and once they kept having to cheat due to be knowing how they played(their tactics and stuff) i left for awhile.

Sorry to say it, but nobody really cares about competetive settings any more. GW made it quite clear with 8th edition. The "casual crowds" still have mighty fun with a woodelve or a bretonnian, now and then.

rb.uhs
28-03-2011, 15:15
I know I shouldn't be saying this, but I feel Bretonnians can be exempt from the next book or two. They can still compete with top shelf armies, but have to use peasant-heavy lists.
My often wrong opinion is just one of many :D

Makaber
28-03-2011, 15:51
Okay then, about Beastmen... I was hoping not to turn this into a pro-Beastmen rant, but I feel I have to explain a bit what I mean.

The characters are okay. Only flaw with them is that some of the Gifts are pretty "meh" or very "7th". Stubborn for 75 points?

Core is okay. Gors and Ungors are underrated: Looking at their stats they're not all that, but it's easy to forget to take into account what is pretty much Hatred, every round. The Chariots gets way too much praise in my book: They're fragile and don't hit very hard. Still, they're okay too. Hound are hounds.

However, the Beastmen army was supposed to have a schtick, a signature trait: Ambush. However, it doesn't really work. The 1:1 ratio completely screws it over, especially considering that the infantry, with their almost complete lack of saves, needs to be in beefy units to be effective. This means that for every smallish Gor unit you want to have in ambush, you need a unit of at least 30 Gors on the table. And due to the sporadic nature of the Beastmen Ambush table, you kinda need two or three units in ambush to make a worthwhile impact.

Now, Gors can be great. But they're great in big units, benefitting heavily from synergy. You'll want to back they up with characters and magic. Once you're talking four to six units of Gors to get a decent ambush going, there's just not enough Magic Dice to go around and support them all. You're suffering form a severe case of diminishing returns.

Main problem area are the Special and Rare choices, though. Harpies and Bestigors are good, Razorgor are okay. Minotaurs got a lot of improvements, but sadly they're all pretty much wasted because they still suffer from the same flaw they've always had: Being extremely fragile. This didn't use to matter that much because when they charged, they used to get their attacks and that was usually enough to see them not taking many hits in return. Now, however, they die very easily and it hurts all the more because of how expensive they've become due to their various upgrades. Small units are too fragile, and large units are way, way too expensive. And once you invest enough in the unit to make it effective, you'd achieve better results with the same points invested in Bestigor.

Finally, the rares. The Ghorgon is probably the best of the lot, but a little too expensive compared to pretty much all other (non-Beastmen) monsters. The Cygor is an expensive stone thrower with a gimmicky ability is neutered completely by 8th ed. (Ld tests are very easy to pass and even if it fails, nobody seem to fail meeting their casting values anymore), whos low WS and lack of saves almost makes it a liability on combat. The Jabberslythe was an interesting addition that contributed a lot on 7th. ed., who's entire arsenal of abilities has been left useless under 8th. I am usually loathe to say something is a "waste of points", after all, no matter what you're paying for you're getting something. With the Jabberslythe, I'm tempted to disagree with myself. It's absolutely no use outside of combat, and it's so poor in melee you're basically handing out a brickload of VP's.

I'm not saying you can't make a decent list with Beastmen. However, every list has "doers" and "chaff". Beastmen are good at chaff: You have cheap Chariots, Hounds, Harpies, Razorgor. However, when it comes to doers, you're left with Gors and Bestigors, who, as troops to fill out the bulk of the army, are vastly superior to everything else. So, the decent Beastmen lists all consist of Gors for core, Bestigor in special, and a bunch of characters and chaff troops to support them. It's very samey. Once you try to do something different, you're handicapping yourself for the sake of originality.

Harwammer
28-03-2011, 15:53
the OBJECT or GOAL of every game(sports, board games, etc) is to win, the POINT of the game is to have fun.
Not entirely true, the object of some games is not to lose :p

Tokamak
28-03-2011, 15:58
Beastmen really need a change. Such a gimped army.


Oh wow, people are really trying to say OnG need a new book right after their new book njust came out? Seems Whineseer is striking an all time low.

Yes, the orc boys point cost is completely messed up.

Ultimate Life Form
28-03-2011, 17:37
I say, give the poor 6th Ed books their well-deserved updates first - it's just a question of fairness. After that, we can start sorting out issues with 7th Ed books. VC are definitely up for a major tweaking. Other than that, most armies seem to do quite well under 8th...

Okay, Beastmen are an entirely different chapter though, while I agree they're not what most players wished for, they're unfortunately the 'newest' book out there, meaning they have to line up at the end of the queue again, and they're Beastmen, meaning half a dozen other books will push to the front before they're up again. My bet is 10th Edition. Being Beastmen is really a bad position to be.

hashrat
29-03-2011, 01:17
I know I shouldn't be saying this, but I feel Bretonnians can be exempt from the next book or two. They can still compete with top shelf armies, but have to use peasant-heavy lists.
My often wrong opinion is just one of many :D

That is why Bretonnia needs doing.
If I wanted Knights acting as support to stupid blocks of infantry, I already have the Empire for that, Dark Elves can do it aswell.
Bretonnia is supposed to be about Knights taking centre stage, not acting as support for peasants.
Bretonnia needs a book that gives the Knights the starring roll, in the same way Wood Elves need effective skirmisher rules.

Otherwise why bother? Just scrap them. We need a book that allows us to take on deep units without relying on peasants, or we end up being Empire V1.1, witch defeats the purpose of owning more than 1 army, variety.

The bearded one
29-03-2011, 01:31
@ Ulf: What's up with the Japanese avatar?

Ultimate Life Form
29-03-2011, 01:53
@ Ulf: What's up with the Japanese avatar?

Supporting Japan, what else?

Xabraxis
29-03-2011, 02:30
Okay then, about Beastmen... I was hoping not to turn this into a pro-Beastmen rant, but I feel I have to explain a bit what I mean.

The characters are okay. Only flaw with them is that some of the Gifts are pretty "meh" or very "7th". Stubborn for 75 points?

Core is okay. Gors and Ungors are underrated: Looking at their stats they're not all that, but it's easy to forget to take into account what is pretty much Hatred, every round. The Chariots gets way too much praise in my book: They're fragile and don't hit very hard. Still, they're okay too. Hound are hounds.

However, the Beastmen army was supposed to have a schtick, a signature trait: Ambush. However, it doesn't really work. The 1:1 ratio completely screws it over, especially considering that the infantry, with their almost complete lack of saves, needs to be in beefy units to be effective. This means that for every smallish Gor unit you want to have in ambush, you need a unit of at least 30 Gors on the table. And due to the sporadic nature of the Beastmen Ambush table, you kinda need two or three units in ambush to make a worthwhile impact.

Now, Gors can be great. But they're great in big units, benefitting heavily from synergy. You'll want to back they up with characters and magic. Once you're talking four to six units of Gors to get a decent ambush going, there's just not enough Magic Dice to go around and support them all. You're suffering form a severe case of diminishing returns.

Main problem area are the Special and Rare choices, though. Harpies and Bestigors are good, Razorgor are okay. Minotaurs got a lot of improvements, but sadly they're all pretty much wasted because they still suffer from the same flaw they've always had: Being extremely fragile. This didn't use to matter that much because when they charged, they used to get their attacks and that was usually enough to see them not taking many hits in return. Now, however, they die very easily and it hurts all the more because of how expensive they've become due to their various upgrades. Small units are too fragile, and large units are way, way too expensive. And once you invest enough in the unit to make it effective, you'd achieve better results with the same points invested in Bestigor.

Finally, the rares. The Ghorgon is probably the best of the lot, but a little too expensive compared to pretty much all other (non-Beastmen) monsters. The Cygor is an expensive stone thrower with a gimmicky ability is neutered completely by 8th ed. (Ld tests are very easy to pass and even if it fails, nobody seem to fail meeting their casting values anymore), whos low WS and lack of saves almost makes it a liability on combat. The Jabberslythe was an interesting addition that contributed a lot on 7th. ed., who's entire arsenal of abilities has been left useless under 8th. I am usually loathe to say something is a "waste of points", after all, no matter what you're paying for you're getting something. With the Jabberslythe, I'm tempted to disagree with myself. It's absolutely no use outside of combat, and it's so poor in melee you're basically handing out a brickload of VP's.

I'm not saying you can't make a decent list with Beastmen. However, every list has "doers" and "chaff". Beastmen are good at chaff: You have cheap Chariots, Hounds, Harpies, Razorgor. However, when it comes to doers, you're left with Gors and Bestigors, who, as troops to fill out the bulk of the army, are vastly superior to everything else. So, the decent Beastmen lists all consist of Gors for core, Bestigor in special, and a bunch of characters and chaff troops to support them. It's very samey. Once you try to do something different, you're handicapping yourself for the sake of originality.

This is about where I stand on the army as well. Especially with the 75 point stubborn item.


As far as what needs a book:
I've never played Bretts however I love their feel. I want to see where GW would take them but seeing the last book I liked(Beastmen) I'm slightly horrified at what might happen to an otherwise awesome fluff-enriched list.

Wood elves need one for sure, probably a bit more than Bretts.

Ogres are awesome, and while I'm sure they will be next after TK I think the book can wait a little bit.

Dwarves are right up there with wood elves.

I want my Warriors of Chaos to wait as long as possible for a new book. I am NOT a fan of the limited magic item selection, so I want to play with my cool fluffy items for as long as possible.


Also, Orcs and Goblins need a new book.

rb.uhs
29-03-2011, 05:24
That is why Bretonnia needs doing.
If I wanted Knights acting as support to stupid blocks of infantry, I already have the Empire for that, Dark Elves can do it aswell.
Bretonnia is supposed to be about Knights taking centre stage, not acting as support for peasants.
Bretonnia needs a book that gives the Knights the starring roll, in the same way Wood Elves need effective skirmisher rules.

Otherwise why bother? Just scrap them. We need a book that allows us to take on deep units without relying on peasants, or we end up being Empire V1.1, witch defeats the purpose of owning more than 1 army, variety.

But at least Brets can compete with the top-shelf armies. Sure, it's not the most ideal army composition to do this but they can. I know they're being done now, but just look at TK. They just couldn't compete. Yes, I would love to have an all-knight army that can steamroll >50% of the time, but I'm just making fair observations.

Brets can win games. WE can win games. If anything, OK should be next after TK. Probably followed by Beastmen.

Memnos
29-03-2011, 10:00
Brets can win games. WE can win games. If anything, OK should be next after TK. Probably followed by Beastmen.

As a Beastmen player who has been moderately successful(8/12 wins - One where the enemy received 0 victory points), I would like to disagree with a caveat:

Beastmen have some very sneaky tricks: Single Razorgor Mage/BSB hunters, Centigor/Chalice war machine/archer hunting points denial armies, Herdstone Tower of Doom mage armies... Very successful lists. The problem doesn't lie in the variety of strange and wonderful lists you can make, but in how certain models shouldn't be taken in most lists. You can afford to, but they aren't that great.

Plus, the Lore is absolute rubbish. I have never seen anyone take it over the book lores.

Lorcryst
29-03-2011, 10:28
Could the O&G haters please stop polluting this thread with "Orcs and Goblins need a new book" spam ... it's wrong, and won't happen for another 4 years at least !

Wesser
29-03-2011, 10:29
But at least Brets can compete with the top-shelf armies. Sure, it's not the most ideal army composition to do this but they can. I know they're being done now, but just look at TK. They just couldn't compete. Yes, I would love to have an all-knight army that can steamroll >50% of the time, but I'm just making fair observations.

Brets can win games. WE can win games. If anything, OK should be next after TK. Probably followed by Beastmen.

Now I havent rly played against TK's to any extent (played several tournaments but none fielding them), so they certainly need the upgrade, which they get.

I do however play against Ogres often enough and sure they have problems here or there, but unlike bretonnians you can make a balanced AND competitive army.


Now for instance I play Empire and brets and took each to a tournament.

In both cases I made a balanced list. My Empire list for instance contained every choice but pistoliers, Helstorm and Steam Tank and my brets was just without yeomen and grail relique.

My Empire list finished second (dislodging 20 Phoenix Guards in the Watchtower scenario was always going to be difficult....), and while I flattened Dark Elves (even with the outrageous Pendant of Khaeleth) I had two very close games against Ogres (multiple scraplauchers? get out of here...)

My brets on the other hand...were swallowed. My enemies would simply reform their units into trains (5 wide and 7-10 deep) and push them forward to absorb my charges. The result was that I had to commit 2 units of knights, my general and a pegasus hero to break one block of dark elf spearmen...otherwise I'd just bounce off.

If my brets are to be competitive I feel like I have to ditch all fluff....fill my army with archers and trebuchets, stuff the front ranks of my knigth units with characters, make 15-man knight units not for the damage but for the ranks to hopefull negate steadfast and equip my characters with the most savage of combos.

Or I could max totally out on peg knights and be called beardy. Like taking 5 units of 3 when taking my general on a royal peg.

Do Ogres need to do that? No. Do Ogres have more than 5 viable choices (men-at-arms, archers, trebuchets, peg knights, knight-dont matter the type)? Yes

Ogres dont rly need a book.... the reasons in this thread is mostly about I-tests being to devastating, points needing tweaks, lack of armor saves and slightly outdated magic.

Brets cant field a competive and balanced army. If I wanna be competitive without maxing out I bring Empire....hows that for "fair"?

Harwammer
29-03-2011, 10:58
I'm confused as to how taking large units of knights, tonnes of characters and a bunch of archers is unfluffy. This is how brets were set in the 5th edition box when they were introduced, have things changed?

Also I think its a little conceited to say brets have only 5 viable units by lumping errant, realm, questing and grail into one category. By that logic WoC have 4 viable choices: hounds, infantry, knights and hellcannon. Also your list of viable units actually covers many unit types that fill many different roles, instantly giving more versatility required for a balanced army than many lists, such as ogres.

Edit: do note I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to brets, but these are my impressions based on your post.

Raffazza
29-03-2011, 11:32
If I had to pick two armies that need an update they would (for VERY different reasons) be:
Ogres - A thoroughly poor book, urgently need to be cheaper/more flexible/have something else going on there.
and:
VC - Yes I know they are good, I use them. But there are only two competitive units in the list.


Wood Elves are a tough one. I would say what they really need are a change to their magic items points cost (and a different magic lore). GG, Dryads, Treekin, Treemen, Eagles are all still very good in the game (they are not the only army with few viable options - see VC above). Anyone that says skirmishers have no part to play in 8th has to really think about it.

Wesser
29-03-2011, 11:41
Basically because all the 4 subtypes of knight fulfill the same role. Shock cavalry.

While you can take some KE as throwaway/warmachine hunters the difference between taking Grail knight and Kotr is like you deciding between Chaos warriors or Chosen Chaos warriors. Same role. One just hits harder for more points.

When I say "large units of knights" its because you need the rank bonus to have a chance to negate steadfast. Also it acts as backup to the characters. To actual value of the damage the knights inflict has lowered dramatically in 8th.

Knights are now by the standards of 8th edition support troops, and in an army that is meant to win with knights..that hurts.

My problem is that I need to max out to win. And maxing out means taking big characters, lotsa peasants and trebuchets.

If I actually choose knights I have to make them a deathstar crammed with characters. Why? Because the way brets are designed (for 6th edition) is to break the enemy on the charge. If I dont. the unit is basically a goner because the lance cant win protracted combats.

Against a unit of say 50 Marauders I'd prolly have to slaughter half on the charge to negate steadfast on break. If I dont negate then I got a knight unit stuck in combat till some chaos warriors can be bothered to charge its flank and smoosh it.

In effect I cant commit knights to combat unless Im absolutely sure I can crush the enemy on the charge. Ofc flank charges and combined charges are possible, but the lack of decent infantry severely limits the options brets have.

I want to field knights, thats why I field brets. Problem is that they are so vulnerable that they, compared to just taking more peasants, seems like a liability.

You know you'll see plenty of ogres in an OK army. You are far less likely to see plenty of knights in a bret force.

I actually defeated a WoC army using an all-peasant army recently ( we ignored the restriction that you had to field Kotr), and just fielded 2 paladins on foot.

This should not be. Knights should win me the games, but they arent...and its wrong

Raffazza
29-03-2011, 12:08
Disagree with the Bret points on a couple of important points.

Firstly, from a fluff side of things, they should be an army of shock cavalry, with a smattering of support stuff.

Secondly: With the lance formation shock cavalry can be insanely good if employed in large enough units. Against any non stubborn/unbreakable infantry unit, a proper lance has the potential to shatter the unit on the charge.

The fundamental issue is that lances used in 8th are not big enough. Looking at the nature of infantry blocks in 8th they really need to be 15+ strong and have supporting characters.

The lance 'deathstar' with well designed characters has every chance of breaking any comabt unit that can break (tar pits a separate thing of course).

The problem, like any deathstar, is getting it into the right unit at the right time, but that has always been the case.

Lorcryst
29-03-2011, 12:18
Well, I haven't really tried it (as a Night Goblin player my only Cavalry are Squig Hoppers, and those are quite special), but it looks like 8th ed favors HUGE units, both for Infantry and Cavalry, so the solution for Bretonnians seems to be big busses of Knights with Characters in them ...

Same things for all Knights really, an unit of 5 Chaos Knights, while fearsome on paper, will get munched over time ...

Gharof von Carstein
29-03-2011, 12:44
this is totally biast but here goes and the reasons why:

-Ogres/the army is old, the models can look even kewler(specially yhetees! YUCK!) and some are still missing(rhinox riders) not to mention it is not competitive with 8th in any way against any kind of army that uses magic (everyone)
-VC/was good before, sucks now. VC although some yelled OP was still a fun army to play with good mechanics. Basically those mechanics have been tossed out in 8th and now its just creepy pale men trying to beat up people with rotten corpses....
-Beastmen/MAN did GW miss the ball on this one! gief better point costs and rare models. oww and fix the lore of the wild while your at it!
-WE/I like the feel of this army so much. Yet my competitive nature will never let me touch them. Give all the hippies their way and plz redo this entire army. Mother nature will thank you!
-Bretts/I dont like anything about this army yet it saddens me to see it go without loving for so long. time to reinvent these guys big time. Just not before the above have had their turn.
-Daemons/fix us, we are no fun to play. We werent in 7th and we arent now. I think they need to be merged with WoC again.
-Skaven/after all the other armies have been raised somewhat in power level I suspect this one still needs to be taken down a peg.
-Dwarfs/give the people new stuff kk?

Lorcryst
29-03-2011, 12:51
I feel compeled to point this little fact : Rhinox Riders ARE NOT in the current Ogre Kingdoms army book, they are a special unit from Forge World, with Forge World rules ...

Gharof von Carstein
29-03-2011, 12:55
I know, hence they are missing! ;) GW allowed the rhinox riders special rules into tournaments. time to just incorporate them completly now.

Wesser
29-03-2011, 13:00
Well, I haven't really tried it (as a Night Goblin player my only Cavalry are Squig Hoppers, and those are quite special), but it looks like 8th ed favors HUGE units, both for Infantry and Cavalry, so the solution for Bretonnians seems to be big busses of Knights with Characters in them ...

Same things for all Knights really, an unit of 5 Chaos Knights, while fearsome on paper, will get munched over time ...

Yea but that make one supremely unwieldy units, with very large flanks and relatively small field of visiion.

Now thats rly part of the game even if it makes for some retarded units.
The problems are that:

1. Peasants are still better than knights
2. You need busses for anything. Whether its goblins or chaos warriors, due to steadfast you need the same kind of force to crack it open.
3. Brets lack the ability to fight protracted combats (questing knights are useless, dont mention them) and any game basically rests on the luck of the charge.

I cant argue with TK needing the love, Woodies have handicaps that need solving soon (but then I always objected to the idea that wardancers should be able to storm the front of a ranked units and win), but ogres is all details and minor stuff.

Brets in my opinion is devolving into being a shooty army, where knights need protection for peasants....


"Needs" aside I do have a horrible sinking feeling that itll be an army like daemons or empire that gets the next book.

Gharof von Carstein
29-03-2011, 13:05
"Needs" aside I do have a horrible sinking feeling that itll be an army like daemons or empire that gets the next book.

I think you might be right. The problem I think is that GW in its quest for the most revenue basically will always tackle the most popular armies first and the least popular ones last. The flaw in that reasoning is however that if you redo a old army it will become insanely popular. its stuff people havent seen in literally years and years. If they would redo, either Ogres or wood elves I would instantly buy that army. However seeing as TK has gotten the love I tend to agree that the other "forgotten" armies are basically screwed for at least another two years.

Lorcryst
29-03-2011, 13:09
Well, Ogre Kingdoms are rumoured to be the next army book after Tomb Kings (in May) ... and since those rumours come from very trustworthy sources, I believe them (and I may finally be able to build the Ogre army of my dreams).

Raffazza
29-03-2011, 13:11
Redoing "popular" army books is not a bad thing.

Sure, it provides revenue etc.

But it is hard to argue against the point that it makes little sense not releasing new books for a new game for the widely used races.

Its does not matter is Deamons/VC/Dark Elves/Lizards or whoever else you want to list are good in 8th.
Their books were written for a a different game, period.

Obviously some armies need to be rereleased because they have had no love for a long time/need the change for 8th. But re-doing VC/Deamons/Dark Elves/Lizardmen would frankly benefit more people than an OK re-release.

In my ideal world they would do a popular army (O&G) followed by a less popular one (TK) followed by a popular one (Empire or Dwarves - they need to release an amry book for the "good" races) and so on. Obviously release schedules with 40k + Hobbit coming out means this is unlikely to happen, but actually seems the best way to go about it.

Harwammer
29-03-2011, 13:18
Okay most of your post made sense to me but this bit:

Basically because all the 4 subtypes of knight fulfill the same role. Shock cavalry.
The knight units seem to have different focuses to me... (Again, me as someone that doesn't know what their talking about and needs explaining to.) I don't think you can put errant and grail in the same bucket. They are totally different units.

You've got cheaper, disposable (errant) knights. You've got core character bunker (realm) knights. You've got grindy knights (I'm guessing questing knights aren't as good as they look; they seem suited to 8th but no one takes them) and super elite (grail) knights that are grindy and hard to shift.

If bouncing in subsequent rounds is a problem is there a way you can hold off charging whilst thinning enemy numbers or to improve grindiness after the charge? Or is it that this is possible but your ideal for bret cavalry is charge + win? If so, they'd need a pretty strong weakness as I remember 6th having plenty of complaints over point + click bret knights. Especially now the game has turned away from charge + win on the whole.

EDIT: And yeah, in GW's attempts to make bret cav viable I can totally imagine them going overboard (making brets the next DoC) or giving up (turning brets into an empire clone).

enyoss
29-03-2011, 17:31
I think Wood Elves hands down.

Changes to skirmishing, terrain and combat have had a colossal impact on their play style.

Interestingly, before 8th edition came out the WE book (and Bret book) had been great at keeping up with the game. I think the models are still some of the best out there.

Raffazza
29-03-2011, 17:37
My only real issue with WE being redone is that they sort of work - a little bit of tweaking and they would be good.
Guess I am just scared they will do something stupid with them...

Sqallum
29-03-2011, 17:43
Chaos Dwarfs.
Yeah :) Brettonia, Wood Elves, Orgre Kingodms in that order
Sqallum

Ultimate Life Form
29-03-2011, 19:05
Redoing "popular" army books is not a bad thing.

Sure, it provides revenue etc.

But it is hard to argue against the point that it makes little sense not releasing new books for a new game for the widely used races.

Its does not matter is Deamons/VC/Dark Elves/Lizards or whoever else you want to list are good in 8th.
Their books were written for a a different game, period.

Obviously some armies need to be rereleased because they have had no love for a long time/need the change for 8th. But re-doing VC/Deamons/Dark Elves/Lizardmen would frankly benefit more people than an OK re-release.

In my ideal world they would do a popular army (O&G) followed by a less popular one (TK) followed by a popular one (Empire or Dwarves - they need to release an amry book for the "good" races) and so on. Obviously release schedules with 40k + Hobbit coming out means this is unlikely to happen, but actually seems the best way to go about it.



Some armies seem a bit neglected (in both systems, actually). You somehow get the impression they don't really like (working on) them. When I was at GW a few months ago I overheard the following conversation:

"Alright guys. So we're finally releasing the new O&G book. O&G are a very popular army, so they deserve being the first book of the new edition... again. I'm sure the customers will love us for it, especially since we've put Mat into irons and locked him up in the deepest recesses of our dungeon for half a year to ensure he goes nowhere near the book. Instead, we let Jeremy write the book, who scored a big success with Skaven. The plan is watertight. There is no way this could possibly go wrong."

"Uhm... pardon me, but why exactly did we let Mat write 8th Edition again?"

"Silence! 8th Edition is a masterpiece, there is no denying it, and if people claim otherwise or even hate it, it's clearly them who's wrong."

"Uhm, but just yesterday there were 10 new threads on WarSeer about how imbalanced the new system is, and how it takes strategy out of the game, and how the game is always decided by a first-turn purple sun, and also there seem to be a few loopholes in the rules that..."

"Silence! Why would we listen to the players? It's not like we're making this game for players anymore. We make it for the shareholders, did you forget?"

"Ah... right. I keep forgetting this all the time. So Jeremy, you're going to repeat this success by turning Orcs into an addictive, competitive army chock-full of fun, like you did with Skaven?"

"Actually, I just took Mat's old book and marginally tweaked the point cost here and there."

"Wait-what? Are you serious?!?"

"Yup. And while I was at it, I also cleaned up a bit and removed unnecessary peripheralia, like Magic Items."

"????????? ( O_O; ) ????????????"

"Yes, it's our new work ethic. It's called minimalism."

"Oh man... I would have managed to pull that off, too"

"Shuddup, Mat. It's decided. Also, it's not like we could change it anymore. The manuscript has already been sent to China where our adscript slaves will print it. So with that off our minds, let's discuss what we'll do next."

"Empire! It urgently needs an army-wide rule!"

"Chaos! I want to do a new Chaos book! I already have a great idea: let's merge Chaos again!"

"No! Dark Elves! I'm gonna give them a ridiculously underpriced, game-breaking monster!"

"Uhm, pardon me, but how exactly would that be anything new? They already have one."

"You're right. But this new monster will be different... because it will give us an opportunity to cash in on yet another ridiculous super-humongous plastic kit. But to make sure, of course, I'll make the Hydra useless in the new book. How's it sound?"

"Ah, now I get it! Great plan!"

"Yes guys, I know you're as keen as mustard to implement your ideas, but the sad truth is, working for GW is not all fun and games. Sometimes, we also have to do some dirty work."

"Oh no! You don't mean..."

"Yes. It's time we do Tomb Kings before players forget completely they ever existed. And Ogres."

"Oh no! Not Ogres!"

"Yes, Ogres. So, any volunteers?"

*crickets chirping*

"Not all at once! I'm asking you again, who wants to write an Ogre book? Anyone?"

*crickets chirping some more*

"I can't believe it! Doesn't anyone have good ideas for an Ogre book?"

*crickets chirping even more*

"Okay, maybe I'm asking too much. Any ideas for an Ogre book?"

*crickets going nuts*

"Andy. What about you?"

"No! you can't make me! I already had to bite the bullet and write Beastmen! I'm still working on my posttraumatic stress disorder. :cries:"

"Okay, then someone else..."

*crickets chirping*

"No, you're not getting away! If that's how you want to play it, I'll just assign someone for the task! Mat! I want that new Ogre book on my desk next week! And someone get these goddamn crickets outta here!"

"So we're doing all those boring old armies now that no one cares about?"

"Yes, it has to be done... the shareholders demand it. But don't worry, when we're through, we can relax again and banish them from our minds for the rest of the decade and return to our usual one-book-per-year schedule."

"Yay... vacation!!!"

popisdead
29-03-2011, 19:11
Wood Elves or Bretonnians are my top choices. Both armies were hit pretty hard in 8th and could use a revamp pretty soon. Ogres are also fairly high on the list.

I would agree with that but a local OK player is proving they are a devastating army to fight against.

Wood Elves and Bretonnians are tops. Beastmen need the points fix.

Scammel
29-03-2011, 19:57
Was Phil off sick when you heard that conversation ULF? I imagine he'd be over the opportunity like a bad rash.


Obviously some armies need to be rereleased because they have had no love for a long time/need the change for 8th. But re-doing VC/Deamons/Dark Elves/Lizardmen would frankly benefit more people than an OK re-release.

It's potentially a self-fulfilling prophecy though - books get redone because they're popular because they get regular updates because they're popular etc. A well-executed release can bring an army loads of new players and vice-versa.


they are a devastating army to fight against.

Big units of Bulls and Ironguts are devastating to fight against, but much of the list is very poor - thinking of Yhetees, Maneaters, Hunters and Leadbelchers here. There's still many problems that need to be dealt with.

Raffazza
29-03-2011, 20:00
It's potentially a self-fulfilling prophecy though - books get redone because they're popular because they get regular updates because they're popular etc. A well-executed release can bring an army loads of new players and vice-versa.


I get your point, but unlikely. Some races are the staple of the warhammer world, and have been for over two decades now - High and Dark Elves, Dwarves, Empire, Chaos, Skaven and Undead have always been central to the story.

Looking at the positives, none of the armies are unusable in 8th (some better than others, but has always been the case).

Personally I am loving the release of army books, so any book is a great thing!

Scammel
29-03-2011, 20:23
They may be central to the story, but that doesn't mean all of them are necessary popular without a fairly modern (and powerful) book, VC and Skaven being my main examples. The same goes for 40k - BA, IG and SW anyone? All seen once in a blue moon before their new books (with the possible exception of IG - they weren't unheard of but they weren't exactly popular either).

Ultimate Life Form
29-03-2011, 20:23
Was Phil off sick when you heard that conversation ULF? I imagine he'd be over the opportunity like a bad rash.


No, it was different. Normally he would instantly have volunteered to do Ogres, but unfortunately he was forced to take over Andy's work due to his suffering a severe Posttraumatic stress disorder, and this experience was so traumatic it sapped all strength from him and left him an empty shell, so he had no enthusiasm left for Ogres. Andy resigned shortly after the meeting...

BorderKing
29-03-2011, 21:57
The OK army book isn't really that bad. The main problems are low int, armour save, and lack of maneuverability.

You could'nt really lower their points much if you made those better.

What I would do is re-arrange some choice slots, making the hunter a rare and Maneater a hero.

To combat maneuverability, they need rhinox riders and gnoblar chariots. I would even consider making all ogres skirmishers, and give them a + 1 to combat res, as they rarely have more then two ranks.

The two useless units are Yhettees and leadbelchers as they need a re-think as they are just usesless.

The armour save could be altered with a gut plate.

The army also needs to get rid of the restrictions on characters, and better spells.

Also, gnoblars need to loose the bicker and the trappers need to be cheaper.

I like the scraplauncher, but hate the model, and don't like the bad tempered rule, due to the new charging rules, so that needs to be changed.

Just my thoughts . Not a major re-working, but some changes are needed.

I'd say that wood elves need an update before ogres, with bretonnia, and empire being after them.

samuel44
29-03-2011, 22:57
Being a wood elve player, I'm very divided. I love the feel of the current wood elves, they play in a fun and different way, have plenty of viable options. Although they are challenge in 8th I have had success with them and have enjoyed the challenge of learning to use them.

Ofcourse I want a new book, fix some of those litle bugs I don't like and make wood work for wood elves again. I'm just worried their going to mess them up, and turn them Ito every other army out there, horde based.

So please do wood elves soon, but take your time and don't make a hash of it!

Malorian
29-03-2011, 23:03
Maybe they should just catch the big three and make the Ogre Knights of the Woods...


:D

samuel44
29-03-2011, 23:11
Ogres riding treekin?

Vepr
30-03-2011, 01:32
Ogres riding treekin?

That pray for blessings and carry lances. I like it!!! :D

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-03-2011, 02:44
I have played 12 games in the past month with my Brets, and to be honest, everyone of my games consists of my Trebuchets underpreforming/being killed first turn (2/12 games have both Trebs survived past turn one) along with my S3 bow fire (its strength 3 come on now, taking alot of crap woulnd't make it better, it just means you have a lot of crap).

By turn 2-4 I have my 2 giant Knight buses one 15 man KoE with Errantry Banner (with BsB, Propehtess, and HKB Lord/another charcter) and then another 12 man Grail unit smash into the front/flank.

Regardless, of the foe, the low W.S and, capability to lose knightly ranks even with 3+ranks easily -as losing a single knight is a large impact than 4 N.G- a Bret force hitting a horde of N.G in the front will still bounce right back as your S5 lasts for one turn and reproducing 12 some odd S5 attacks is imposible in latter rounds.

By the end of the game turn 5 and on, I end up with 2 knights and maybe a charcter or two out of the large KoE bus still left standing, and waiting for my Grail knights to 'hail mary' across the board to save bail out the now super-thinned KoE (the enemy always reforms and then laughs as your S3 means nothing) at the last second.

Meanwhile while this action is going on, my large 40 man Peasant -with the Blessing (the way I run them)- unit that was supposed to be a 'Great Anvil' (thats a laugh) shuffle forward with their measly M4 lagging behind the fast moving cav and get charged by another pathetic infantry with more ranks, or something with WS4/5 and proceeds to crumble even though they have Steadfast on LD7-9 or just flat out lose because they can't hit.

Essentially, Brets are not only terribly pathetic when it comes to their 'niche', being "SHOCK CAVALRY", but to advocate taking an all peasant list is adovcating playing Empire, but hey, at least my peasants have shoes. ;)

Brets need to be redone very soon, the next army I would advocate would be W.E, but then after Brets.

Shock Cav's job is break the force on the turn they charge, but with the prevelance of Steadfast, and Stubborn its almost impossible anymore.

P.S: This doesn't even touch on how bland the book is itself, you have essentially 4 types of knights all of which perform the same role.

TsukeFox
30-03-2011, 04:31
All books need to be revamped at once- I mean honestly how hard could it be? And 8-10 magic items?? For real?? Lame

TheYoungin
30-03-2011, 08:33
Ogres first, it's been like 5 years.

Wesser
30-03-2011, 08:34
I have played 12 games in the past month with my Brets, and to be honest, everyone of my games consists of my Trebuchets underpreforming/being killed first turn (2/12 games have both Trebs survived past turn one) along with my S3 bow fire (its strength 3 come on now, taking alot of crap woulnd't make it better, it just means you have a lot of crap).

By turn 2-4 I have my 2 giant Knight buses one 15 man KoE with Errantry Banner (with BsB, Propehtess, and HKB Lord/another charcter) and then another 12 man Grail unit smash into the front/flank.

Regardless, of the foe, the low W.S and, capability to lose knightly ranks even with 3+ranks easily -as losing a single knight is a large impact than 4 N.G- a Bret force hitting a horde of N.G in the front will still bounce right back as your S5 lasts for one turn and reproducing 12 some odd S5 attacks is imposible in latter rounds.

By the end of the game turn 5 and on, I end up with 2 knights and maybe a charcter or two out of the large KoE bus still left standing, and waiting for my Grail knights to 'hail mary' across the board to save bail out the now super-thinned KoE (the enemy always reforms and then laughs as your S3 means nothing) at the last second.

Meanwhile while this action is going on, my large 40 man Peasant -with the Blessing (the way I run them)- unit that was supposed to be a 'Great Anvil' (thats a laugh) shuffle forward with their measly M4 lagging behind the fast moving cav and get charged by another pathetic infantry with more ranks, or something with WS4/5 and proceeds to crumble even though they have Steadfast on LD7-9 or just flat out lose because they can't hit.

Essentially, Brets are not only terribly pathetic when it comes to their 'niche', being "SHOCK CAVALRY", but to advocate taking an all peasant list is adovcating playing Empire, but hey, at least my peasants have shoes. ;)

Brets need to be redone very soon, the next army I would advocate would be W.E, but then after Brets.

Shock Cav's job is break the force on the turn they charge, but with the prevelance of Steadfast, and Stubborn its almost impossible anymore.

P.S: This doesn't even touch on how bland the book is itself, you have essentially 4 types of knights all of which perform the same role.

Agree. Same things happen to me.

Last night at a tournament I caused a lot of raised eyebrows at even bringing brets (I always bring a balanced force, and anyway trebs and peg knights were restricted).
I also sent shockwaves through the room when I managed a draw against Dark Elves..... In a game where 2 of my 3 busses were Mindrazored to death in 2nd round of combat despite flank charges (steadfast...).

Fun thing is that the store has revamped tournament ect rules for the coming tournaments. Now brets (in 2400 pts games) gets 200 pts extra to compensate for being the weakest army. Note: WE and OK does not get the bonus. TK gets the bonus too until they get their new book....

Oh and TheYoungin....with Brets its been 7 years

VoodooJanus
30-03-2011, 20:56
Some armies seem a bit neglected (in both systems, actually). You somehow get the impression they don't really like (working on) them. When I was at GW a few months ago I overheard the following conversation:

[Hilarity Ensues]



Wait... I think it's bad news that I can't tell whether or not you're joking... I think you are, because that's too ridiculous to be real, right?

Just- one other person took ULF (slightly) seriously, and ULF responded seriously back, which leads me to believe he isn't trying to be funny, or I'm just dumb and gullible (which is probably the case...) I imagine it's slightly dramatized for comedic effect.

Man- I'd kill to write any of the 'considered to be minor/neglected' armies in Fantasy or 40k. Ogres, Tomb Kings, Wood Elves, Beastmen and Brettonnia are my absolute favorite armies. I don't understand why they'd have that reaction- they are practically blank slates: the amount of creative freedom one would get from such a project would be almost overwhelming!

Ultimate Life Form
30-03-2011, 21:06
Well... okay, I admit, I lied. I never was at GW; this is just what my overactive imagination suggested to me: how things work behind the scenes... maybe in a alightly drawn-togetherized fashion.

But it speaks volumes about GW that you would be willing to assume even for a moment that it's nothing but the truth, no? ;)

Forsak3n
30-03-2011, 21:20
Wait... I think it's bad news that I can't tell whether or not you're joking... I think you are, because that's too ridiculous to be real, right?

Just- one other person took ULF (slightly) seriously, and ULF responded seriously back, which leads me to believe he isn't trying to be funny, or I'm just dumb and gullible (which is probably the case...) I imagine it's slightly dramatized for comedic effect.

Man- I'd kill to write any of the 'considered to be minor/neglected' armies in Fantasy or 40k. Ogres, Tomb Kings, Wood Elves, Beastmen and Brettonnia are my absolute favorite armies. I don't understand why they'd have that reaction- they are practically blank slates: the amount of creative freedom one would get from such a project would be almost overwhelming!

i agree 100%, i would love to write a book like that.
the only reason i could see people not wanting to write the OK book would be because there is alot to balance to achieve with points cost, magic, new units, options, without making an OP book....it does need to be competitive yet have choices(like the new OnG book)

to clarify that, if they drop points alot of people will buy more ogres. but that could lead to bull horde spam(multiple units of 18+) which is good for sales but is boring game play. there has to be enough juicy options available(im looking at you leadbelchers, yhettis, rhinox riders?) to want to keep changing lists, trying new things, and above all, to buy new things(create a good selling AB)

Scammel
30-03-2011, 21:24
Well... okay, I admit, I lied. I never was at GW; this is just what my overactive imagination suggested to me

*Recoils in dramatic horror* What? We have been deceived? Oh, woe is the human condition if the very words we speak can be so easily turned upon our fellow being to sow half-truths and lies! Truly we are no better than the beasts of the soil! Woe!


I don't understand why they'd have that reaction- they are practically blank slates: the amount of creative freedom one would get from such a project would be almost overwhelming!

One would assume so, but I think the personal preferences of the authors play a large part in it. Someone who loves the race may give it bags of flavour but perhaps too many useless options or might be concerned of their own bias (I think this is probably what happened with OK, Phil loved it but it had a bajillion limitations from the start) whereas someone who dislikes a certain army may give it rubbish fluff but keeps their head when making the list (like Beastmen).

Rosstifer
31-03-2011, 03:12
Warriors of Chaos. Not that we need it. Just cuz I want more models. Plastic Chariot/Warshrine, Chosen, Forsaken etc.

Ajax of Khemri
31-03-2011, 04:45
I really do think the best approach is to re-write the books based on their year of publication, and not release a new edition of the core rules until every army has a book for the current edition. When multiple books are the same age, priority should be given to whichever book is the most dependant on rules from the old edition.

Thus, I'd re-write these all in the following order:


Warhammer Armies: Tomb Kings (2003)
Warhammer Armies: Bretonnia (2004)
Warhammer Armies: Wood Elves (2005)
Warhammer Armies: Ogre Kingdoms (2005)
Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs (2006)
Warhammer Armies: Empire (2007)
Warhammer Armies: High Elves (2007)
Warhammer Armies: Daemons of Chaos (2008)
Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves (2008)
Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts (2008)
Warhammer Armies: Warriors of Chaos (2008)
Warhammer Armies: Lizardmen (2009)
Warhammer Armies: Skaven (2009)
Warhammer Armies: Beastmen (2010)
Warhammer Armies: Orcs & Goblins (2011)


If they release one army book per quarter, they could have all of them redone by 2014, which is when I expect them to release the 9th Edition of the game.

Harwammer
31-03-2011, 10:58
Ajax: but doing that results in some books being nth compatible for years, whereas some will always get only a few months of compatibility before n+1th edition is released.

I think it's fairer how the books at the tail end of 6th are being redone at the start of 8th (giving almost an entire edition of compatibility after an edition of not) instead of the end of 7th (giving less than a year under the edition they were designed for).

TheLionReturns
31-03-2011, 11:48
Well I might be a bit biased being a WE player but I think they do need an update. I don't think they are as weak as many make out, but the new edition has changed the playstyle and the result is that you are very limited as to the number of viable army builds. I am not sure how soon we can expect an update though. WE need a lot of work because a lot of the range is metal.

I am not sure beastmen are in a particularly desperate state. Rares are overpriced but I think their core and special selections are pretty good. I personally would not update WoC, BoC or DoC, but instead eventually introduce 4 books, one for each chaos god, that combine all three.

I think one major candidate is the VC book. I think the changes to psychology make their troops look rather overpriced at present. I would not be too keen on them getting an update before WE, Brets or OK though as they have had a long wait.

Ajax of Khemri
31-03-2011, 13:46
Ajax: but doing that results in some books being nth compatible for years, whereas some will always get only a few months of compatibility before n+1th edition is released.

True, and as a looong time Sister of Battle player, I have felt that sting before. Twice. Including having my very first codex rendered moot about two months after it was released.

However, after the switch from WH40K 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition and WHFB 3rd Edition to 4th Edition, Games Workshop has gotten much better about maintaining a high degree of compatibilty between editions of their flagship properties. WH40K 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition were almost alien to one another.

With sixteen armies in widespread use, another four that were popular once but have been dropped but might come back (Kislev, Chaos Dwarves, Dogs of War, Ulric), and the ever present possibilty of a new army being added... it just isn't feasible for Games Workshop to release more than three or four per year.

If WHFB 9th Edition maintains a high degree of contunity with WHFB 8th Edition, then there shouldn't be any major problems. It is annoying having only months with a book, but it is much more annoying to have a decade or longer with it!

VoodooJanus
31-03-2011, 17:02
But it speaks volumes about GW that you would be willing to assume even for a moment that it's nothing but the truth, no? ;)

Yeah, that is concerning...

Well, consider me fooled. I'd reply in greater detail, but I've just been informed that the word 'gullible' is written on the.... D******!!!