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Monospot
26-03-2011, 02:34
After several beers and some quality time with IA 9/10, I have come to the conclusion that a simple "codex" containing independant characters for each army unlocking special rules for each would be a great way to "freshen up" armies. Add about 20 new Marine characters a la IA 9/10, add about 10 IG commanders, at least 10 Chaos Marine characters, a few daemons, 6-7 Orks, 4-5 Tau, 4-5 Eldar, 4-5 DE, 6-7 Inquisitors for the new GK codex, 4-5 new 'Nid biomorphs, maybe some Necrons and SOBs until they get new codices, and let each one give their respective army a new option.

The beer tells me this is a great idea.

Culgore
26-03-2011, 02:55
My beers confirm that this is an excellent idea...

shadowhawk2008
26-03-2011, 08:04
It's not just a matter of expanding options but complicating the game entirely. When you have 20 SCs compared to say 10 then the army lists are that much more complicated to build. Clear power lists emerge. You get quantity over quality in a higher imbalance.

MakWiesel
26-03-2011, 15:42
I was hard- charging to agree with you till I read your actual post. I don't like the idea of everyone and his kid sister playing Marneus Calgar. I think special characters should be left to fluff and storytelling.

NOW if there were a characters book released that looked at each force's HQ choice and gave them an array of non-game-changing but aesthetically cool upgrades, we could all build our own unique characters and MAKE them special by building our own stories or fluff around them.
Examples?

The scavenger- this guy can pick up the weapon of anyone he kills on the battlefield and use it.

vs. The trophy keeper- this guy is actually equipped with a weapon chosen from a list of non-standards- like a Marine captain with a shuriken catapult or a Tau Firewarrior commander with a nemesis force weapon, or an IG commander with a pulse carbine.

and loads of gear/ equipment upgrades... silencer, bipod, laser designator, claymore mine, suicide detonator, personal transport, combat pet, non-combat pet,
many of which give only very situational or no game advantage- they're flavor bits.

Yeah it's a little rogue trader but if we could customize the one guy in the army that is kinda supposed to be "us", everyone's commander would be special. You just plan to always be surprised by the guy commanding your opponent's army. He's not gonna change the army or win the game single handedly, but he might very well catch you napping if you let him.

Especially if he took the sleep agent grenades upgrade :)

Kulgur
26-03-2011, 15:48
My beers confirm that this is an excellent idea...

Beers confirm that pretty much anything is a good idea at the time.

mephy77
26-03-2011, 17:01
Yeah it's a cool idea. I think it's one that has come up a few times.

Codex Heroes, Villians and Monsters of the 41st millennium.

Start the codex with the sentence: "These characters may not be used in competitive play" to stop the tourny players from whining.

I'd also like to see one page army lists, such as an Eldar Pirate list or Kroot list.

As for characters;

Xenological Inquisitor: Imperial Inquisitor bringing his personal zoo on the battlefield.

Zombie fest: Inquisitor/imperial high up releasing a purpose built zombie virus on his own population, whereby the infected can be controlled by pheromone suggestion - until the triggers fail to work...

Other Assasin Temples

Other Pheonix lords

Customizable lords likie Makwiesel suggested.

@ Monospot: perhaps you could write up some of the idea's you were batting around and we could move this into the games design section?

shadowhawk2008
26-03-2011, 18:59
What would the purpose be behind turning your population into mindless zombies? You don't get workers for your factories, bureaucrats for your government, people to clean your streets, no law, no TITHES.

@MakW
You can already do that you know. Take Calgar as an example because people always have a nerdrage about him no matter what. My Chapter Master is named Vonnei Starun and belongs to the Thunder Lions. He is an 800-year old marine who has had most of his body rebuilt by bionics and wears a suit of customized armour dating back to the earliest days of the chapter's founding in M32. His suit contains twin integrated master-crafted storm bolters that fire with the following profile 24" range S4 Ap2 Assault 2. His bionics and armour allow him to attack as if he is wielding twin power fists. As a close combat specialist for 600 years he is very nuanced in at close range warfare and can reroll all failed attempts to wound with shooting and close combat attacks.

How about Sicarius? Captain Hroll Oshame of the Patriarchs of Kann. He has trained his company relentlessly for decades and any chapter force under his command benefits from his great leadership and beliefs drilled into them before any deployment. He can re-roll the dice when attempting to seize initiative because of his meticulous attention to detail to all facets of a campaign. Any army being led by Oshame can use his leadership for any morale or pinning tests. Oshame eschews the use of a command squad and instead always chooses to go to battle alongside a squad chosen for its battle record and dedication to the chapter; One Tactical squad can choose one of Counter-attack, Infiltrate, Scout, or Tank Hunters special rules for no cost. Oshame wields the Kannite Longaxe, a master crafted power axe that allows him to make a single strength 6 attack that causes instant death instead of all his normal attacks.

mephy77
26-03-2011, 19:15
@ Shadowhawk: Where's your sense of theatre man? Or narrative, or imagination?


Possible reasons off the top of my head;

Sanction - The world's leaders are deemed heretic and by extension, so too the populace. This is a zombie plague is a creative sanction to act as a message for surrounding planets, and a cheap way to raise a low grade army.

The world has become redundant. It has run out of resources, and has become a testing ground for all sorts of horrid biologist experiments. One being a viral thought control that goes wrong.

The imperial ruler is just mad. Utterly, irredeemably mad, and has tasked his scientists to turn the populace into brainless automatons, so that he and his entourage can play a real life version of 'risk' over the world.

The Ordo Heretecus creates Penitent engines and Archo flagellants. The mechanized zombie virus is an extention to their penitent armory.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure you understand my point by now.

shadowhawk2008
26-03-2011, 19:46
Give me a month to work on it and I could make Vonnei Starun and Hroll Oshame into great tragic characters or whatever else sparks your fantasy. By the way, 10 points if you can guess where I got the character names from.

As for the reasons for turning an entire population into zombies. So basically to serve as a harsh warning to nearby semi-rebellious worlds, you create a planet-wide army for Nurgle? There's fluff, Fluff, and FLUFF. I am sure you understand which one I mean when I discuss your idea :)

mephy77
26-03-2011, 19:59
Why do zombie's have to be nurgle? I think you have a very narrow view.

Again, with a little imagination, there's a plethora of fantastic idea's to be explored.

Rick Blaine
26-03-2011, 20:16
NOW if there were a characters book released that looked at each force's HQ choice and gave them an array of non-game-changing but aesthetically cool upgrades, we could all build our own unique characters and MAKE them special by building our own stories or fluff around them.


What's the point of upgrades if they're not game-changing? You can make a miniature look cool without having a special rule for each trinket. In fact, you can make it much cooler if you're not constrained by a few pre-defined options.

I was also not aware that rules were a prerequisite for fluff.

Carlosophy
26-03-2011, 22:07
I think this needs to be expanded to a codex: mercenaries.

Exactly along the lines of the regiments of renown from WFB it allows any 40k player to take a squad of mercenaries as an elites choice. These could be all sorts of random races that will never get their own codices, allows the designers to go nuts with their imaginations but at the same time allows players of almost any army to take a new unit guaranteeing solid sales from a cross-section of generals.

Monospot
26-03-2011, 22:28
In a fit of sobriety, I'd like to partially ammend my initial post.

*I* personally do not care if I take a "named character" and re-fluff it to meet my own army's theme...for me, that is not a betrayal or a lazy way out. I'm secure enough in my gamerness after playing 40k since '89.

I would, however, like to see more allowed variability in the characters that allow special rules to be unlocked.

So, with that in mind, I think Codex: Characters should have some famous "fixed" named characters (ie Calgaresque) and some archetypes. Such an archetype could be something like:

8th Company Captain Bob
Statline like any marine captain
wargear - fixed to include Jump pack

Special Rules - Assault Squads count as scoring
Some upgrade to allow command squad to have jump packs

OR

Deff Skullz Big Mek
Allows Looters to be taken as troops
Some other cool rules

Basically, use these characters to allow variant army builds. Yes, some power gamers will fark things up and build power lists...but I think the vast majority of use will allow the average player to mess around with variant lists.

This still seems like a good idea, and I'm sober.

AlexHolker
27-03-2011, 05:59
I think this needs to be expanded to a codex: mercenaries.
No, it doesn't. The WHFB setting is well suited to the Dogs of War, 40k is not. You could have an Inquisitor + Retinue as an "Any Imperial" choice, but pretty much every race has a "Shoot first, ask questions later" policy towards unaligned or enemy races.

If GW was going to create this book, I'd want it to include Monospot's archetypes and 3rd Edition style armouries. Being able to customise all your characters again, including veteran sergeants, would be a change for the better.

shadowhawk2008
27-03-2011, 07:40
8th Company Captain Bob
Statline like any marine captain
wargear - fixed to include Jump pack

Special Rules - Assault Squads count as scoring
Some upgrade to allow command squad to have jump packs

I have no experience with Orks so I can't comment on that but as for Bob. Kayvaan Shrike comes with a jump pack. He gives you fleet and his squad can infiltrate. And he is fine as is. If you want scoring assault squads then use Blood Angels man. It makes no sense to have such crossovers between codices. Same goes for jump pack combat squads. You can't have the best of C:BA and C:SM for your army because it doesn't make sense. And it negates the entire point of bringing out a BA codex and giving it units like the Sanguinary Guard.

jack da greenskin
27-03-2011, 10:20
I think codex: mercenaries would be a great idea.

Freeboota mob, eldar pirate mob, harlequins, then characters like ordo ____ inquisitor, allows you to take a mob of henchmen, then SC like the ones from IA.

famous meks, warbosses, warlords, weirdboys, painbosses.
Marine captains and chapter masters, librarians and chaplains, venerable dreads and weaponsmiths.
Guard IC characters and command squad upgrades, maybe some that mess with the FOC, like troop sentinels that score or troop stormtroopers or something.
etc.

HRM
27-03-2011, 11:43
I have no experience with Orks so I can't comment on that but as for Bob. Kayvaan Shrike comes with a jump pack. He gives you fleet and his squad can infiltrate. And he is fine as is. If you want scoring assault squads then use Blood Angels man. It makes no sense to have such crossovers between codices. Same goes for jump pack combat squads. You can't have the best of C:BA and C:SM for your army because it doesn't make sense. And it negates the entire point of bringing out a BA codex and giving it units like the Sanguinary Guard.

Ah, but this book would indeed invalidate the need for, like, four other books. It'd save GW money in the long run, and then all the other armies could get the same treatment as the poster boys do (and this is coming from a Marine player).

Now, one downside would be cost to purchase - I can easily see this book needing to cost, like, $200.00 if done right.

Lord Damocles
27-03-2011, 11:53
It does seem rather unfair/unbalanced that the majority of the characters suggested in the OP are Imperial/Marine...

Zanzibarthefirst
27-03-2011, 12:02
Since imperials dominate the tabletop, cater for the masses

shadowhawk2008
27-03-2011, 12:20
I thought the point was equal representation and not an imbalance? If more players can be persuaded to play the xenos armies then that is a big boost as new units and models and else for these armies can be truly justified from my POV. No matter which armies get their glory days on the tabletop, all players need to be treated like they are part of the hobby.

terradax
27-03-2011, 12:38
Love the idea! Don't think it will balance the game, but could be used as an expansion.
Here are some of my examples:

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor: Allows Space Marine Sternguards to be choosen as troops (Deathwatch), and all Sternguard heavy bolters have the option of being 18" assault 3 weapons.

Gue'Vesa: Some Tau Commande allowing a limited alliance from Codex Imperial Guard, like 1-2 Infantry plutoon and a leman russ.

Brasen Host: A Bloodthirster allowing Seekers and Bloodcrushers to be taken as troops.

JagdWehrwolf
27-03-2011, 14:00
Being absolutely sober I agree that is an awesome-sauce. My personal wishlist would be a Dark Angel Techmarine/Master of the Forge allowing for Squadrons of Predators/Vindicators (Go, Ironwing, Go!), about nine SC, each for one of the Chaos Legions (which would make waiting for next Codex: Chaos Space Marines bearable) and the return of the Solitaire. Also Terradax's idea for Deathwatch gets my seal of approval.