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hacknslashgamer
26-03-2011, 11:29
Ok Ogres need an armor bonus for the Ogre gutplate.
Its a big metal plate, you would think it provides some armor bonus?
They should have thought that one over a huge metal plate that the book says "Protects the gut" and yet it gives no protection?
The book also says that their skin is tough as a leather breastplate and twice as thick.
Is there any talk of adding a gutplate rule in the new OK Army Book?

With that being said I say increase Bulls to 40 points each, or leave it the same "we pay enough already"and add an armor bonus for gutplate and some kind of bonus against slashing weapons like swords for the thick skin.
Any comments?

Leogun_91
26-03-2011, 11:32
Leathery skin is present on orcs as well who are also said to survive getting a limb ripped off in battle.

I do however agree that they need something and a gutplate armoursave could really help.

BattleofLund
26-03-2011, 11:32
Looking in the army book, I notice Ogre Bulls have the option for light armour. Maybe you could use that rule to represent the gut-plate?

snottlebocket
26-03-2011, 11:44
Ok Ogres need an armor bonus for the Ogre gutplate.
Its a big metal plate, you would think it provides some armor bonus?
They should have thought that one over a huge metal plate that the book says "Protects the gut" and yet it gives no protection?
The book also says that their skin is tough as a leather breastplate and twice as thick.
Is there any talk of adding a gutplate rule in the new OK Army Book?

With that being said I say increase Bulls to 40 points each, or leave it the same "we pay enough already"and add an armor bonus for gutplate and some kind of bonus against slashing weapons like swords for the thick skin.
Any comments?

It does protect the gut. It gives them toughness 4 instead of their stretched out belly pouring out all their guts as soon as someone pokes a sword in it.

Doesn't their fluff say somewhere that their guts are quite the weak spot and they use the plates to cover it up?

Forsak3n
26-03-2011, 12:03
to the OP, i personally answered this question for you on another forum and directed to a thread on said forum where this rule and others is being talked about(why we dont have it and why we should get it in the new AB).

the fluff says that they extensive thick interlocking muscle over their guts but the plate is only there for "added" protection and that their gut is a valued part of them and their culture. the honest fact/truth is that a fully equiped ogre bull(with Light Armor and Ironfist) is worth about 21.5 slaves which is way more then most other armies elites for a worse AS and worse stats/special rules(low WS compared to elites, no WS, low I, etc) so for their price they should really get a 4+ Armor Save(+1 for Gutplate, +1 for LA, +1 for thick skin) or they stay the same price but drop at least 15pts.

in a game currently about hordes and many models on the field to withstand mass magic and WM's OK should be able to fit more bodies on the table or at least make those bodies alittle more survivable.

WarmbloodedLizard
26-03-2011, 13:18
I don't think ogres should be an army with good armor saves.A +1 save would however not overdo it. this would give Bulls a basic 6+ save (5+ with LA, 4+ with ironfists, making ironfist/LA a real options) and Ironguts a 4+ save. together all non-magic weapons (including GW+maybe CLS) being treated as ogre clubs and a slight point drop (about 5 points), this should be enough. to make them properly costed again.

Their though skin is represented by their T4. there should not be another bonus.

Forsak3n
26-03-2011, 13:55
I don't think ogres should be an army with good armor saves.A +1 save would however not overdo it. this would give Bulls a basic 6+ save (5+ with LA, 4+ with ironfists, making ironfist/LA a real options) and Ironguts a 4+ save. together all non-magic weapons (including GW+maybe CLS) being treated as ogre clubs and a slight point drop (about 5 points), this should be enough. to make them properly costed again.

Their though skin is represented by their T4. there should not be another bonus.

exactly, either up the the Save/benefits with a Slight point decrease in order to make the low model count more worth it/survivable OR leave things as is and GREATLY reduce the point cost.

T4 isnt anything great against Str4 or higher(thinking of GreatWeapons), not to mention anything hits us on a 4+. Buffs take care of everything if they can stay stacked, i'd be happy with a points decrease across the board, same stats but with a more on par magic phase for OK.

Bloody Nunchucks
26-03-2011, 19:55
you cant have a core unit T5, just cant, wont work in the game. i agree they should get a better armour save of +1 across the board, representing thick skin and a 2 point "study gut plate" or soemthing, this would combine with other armour normally. also, a small points decrease would be good as well, maybe 7-15 points cheaper

ashc
27-03-2011, 12:58
I don't see gut plates offering up +1 to the armour save of an ogre as game-breaking in any way, sense, or form, I think it would be characterful little thing for the big old oafs.

Kalandros
27-03-2011, 14:43
With Special Trolls going down to 35 pts and Rare Trolls down to 45 pts, you can expect similar price cuts for Ogres, that's certain!

Scammel
27-03-2011, 14:47
A single, salt-encrusted rumor has it that Yhetees are going down to 40pts, definitely fair considering what 8th did to them.

IGoblinego
27-03-2011, 15:07
I wouldn't mind removing the gut plates and giving them something to represent light armour

hacknslashgamer
27-03-2011, 22:49
Yes Forsak3n you did give your answer and thank you for that,but I am on another forum to get everybody else's opinion and see what they think.

I will also be asking this same question to the Ogre Forum, and if enough people ask this question maybe a change will happen FOR SURE in the new book not just a rumor.

On a side note what is a Dwarfs toughness if it is 4 then Ogres should be tougher than that right?

WarmbloodedLizard
27-03-2011, 23:34
On a side note what is a Dwarfs toughness if it is 4 then Ogres should be tougher than that right?

T4 is a huge sectrum. saurus surely are thougher than dwarfs and ogres tougher than saurus. but they are not really in the same league with T5 monsters and generals. the same goes for humans and elves: humans are tougher than elves but in game terms they both have the same toughness. in game terms tougher doesn't always mean higher T-stat.

narrativium
28-03-2011, 01:15
Ogres have three wounds. Isn't that tougher than a Saurus or Dwarf?

Forsak3n
28-03-2011, 05:16
Ogres have three wounds. Isn't that tougher than a Saurus or Dwarf?

yes they have 3 wounds but the cost of ogres is so high you dont see that many in a unit. for this example lets say there is 9 ogre bulls in a unit facing a horde(40-50) of say......anything(any other army can make cheap hordes) they will be hitting a wounding on around a 4+, so 15 of the 30 attacks went through(ogres dont get an armorsave standard) so thats 5 dead ogres. since I2 those ogres are normally dead before they can stike.

ogres need an armor save WITH a lower cost in order for us to survive those wounds, have plenty of units(or hordes) and have enough points let over for supporting units like every other army.

friendsofrhomb
28-03-2011, 05:35
yes they have 3 wounds but the cost of ogres is so high you dont see that many in a unit. for this example lets say there is 9 ogre bulls in a unit facing a horde(40-50) of say......anything(any other army can make cheap hordes) they will be hitting a wounding on around a 4+, so 15 of the 30 attacks went through(ogres dont get an armorsave standard) so thats 5 dead ogres. since I2 those ogres are normally dead before they can stike.

ogres need an armor save WITH a lower cost in order for us to survive those wounds, have plenty of units(or hordes) and have enough points let over for supporting units like every other army.

OK. maths fail... ur saying you hit on a 4+ and wound on a 4+

that means 15 attacks hit, and 7.5 of them wound... which means 2.5 dead ogres.... not 5. which leaves you plently of attacks back, and ur auto hit stomp attacks....

Im not saying ogres dont need re vamping (they do) just try not to over exaggerate ( i know its warseer)

macdaddy
28-03-2011, 06:23
not to mention, the two examples given, saurus and dwarves are as slow or slower than ogres. this means they will hit with all attacks. also ogre club gives extra armour piercing.

Forsak3n
28-03-2011, 06:53
whoops, thats what happens after working 6 12hour shifts this week. i was just ballparking(which went wrong clearly) but we all know it could be alot more kills or even none at all(it is dice after all).

yes, ogre club gives armor piercing. i was just mearly argueing that MOST other armies are I3 or higher and can have 2 or more hordes that can dish out 30 attacks, plus supporting units that can flank charge versus an ogre which have no standard AS, and if you give him LA and a Ironfist he then costs even more. a horde of night goblins can still kill an ogre or 2 and only cost a third of what a fully geared unit of ogre bulls do, then you use those points you save on a hammer unit(still only using about 1/3 of the points of the bull unit) to flank the bulls....then thats one dead unit of ogres only using 2/3 of the cost. low model count in a game geared towards having lots of them isnt a good thing.

macdaddy
28-03-2011, 19:07
right... and what i was saying is that the vast majority of those I3 troops won't get a save either (and they mostly need to pay for added armor save). and i believe that the only T4 infantry that strikes before ogres is a warriors of chaos unit. throw in the regen spell and the (now stackable) plus 1 T spell and you don't need lt armor standard. heard a rumor that in the new book the spells will not be remains in play but will last 1 full turn. (salt added) also add in that they will probably give the bulls impact hits always, and they have stomp.

Now, thats not to say the base cost of an ogre isn't too high. They need to come down a few pts.

Forsak3n
29-03-2011, 19:23
i wouldnt mind if our magic was more in line with current magic and we could still stack spells as long as the base cost goes down and we have the option for cheaper armored bulls.