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ClockBlock
27-03-2011, 20:58
Ok, so I was paging through the Tau codex the other day and noticed that the Tau have a ballistic skill of three (I don't really read the statistics until I begin collecting the army itself.)

Why is it so low? For the Tau, with all their technology and fancy things, I'd at least expect them to be BS 4. Yes, I know about how the markerlights boost the BS by 1, but they're expensive (10 points for just a regular markerlight!)

Also, speaking of BS 4, why do Honor Guards have a BS of 4 while the regular joe FWs get a BS of 3? I can reason that the battlesuits having BS 4 is also good, because the battlesuits are all highly advanced (And they probably have really good dakka for their targeting systems anyways.)

Anyways, the regular troop FWs tend to get mowed down is CC, and anyways, while they're busy missing with their shots, the other army can run right up and mow them down with blades, claws, etc. Also, Fire Warriors are pretty expensive when you think about it- 12 pts for the cream-of-the-crop basic unit. Make it a full squad and suddenly you're at 144 for 12 units with basic armament. Is this fair? No. Now, I could justify them with BS 3 if they were cheaper (9-10 points per model), but right now the Tau pretty much hands-down suck.

DYoung
27-03-2011, 21:02
BS3 represents the accuracy of a highly trained warrior. BS4 is almost god-like shooting ability only achievable by nigh immortal beings such as Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons etc.

Charistoph
27-03-2011, 21:03
It's not ridiculously LOW, but rather ridiculously AVERAGE.

But this is one point where it is a balance decision. If the Marker Light didn't boost BS, then I could start to agree (I still like it), but for balance, it may be too much.

Of course, that was in 3rd and 4th Edition, in a 5th Edition codex it's almost tame.

Dvora
27-03-2011, 21:08
I think that their BS of 3 is fine for their mainline infantry, though they should have a " veterens" option without having to take a farseer.

Xabraxis
27-03-2011, 21:12
Tau are meant to be an army that supports itself, hence the Markerlights.
Personally, Markerlights should be a lot cheaper/standard issue. And there shouldn't be such thing as a network markerlight, the markerlights should just happen.

Marker Drones are appropriate, since they give two marker lights to a unit AND they can move and shoot(see jetpack rules).
*Technically the Ancient FAQ for them says you can't(in the case of something that is slow/purposeful with marker drones), which is ludicrous considering that Jetpack units(which include all drones) are relentless. Oh well, heres hoping they fix that in the new version.

What kills the army for me, are all the armies that can outshoot tau and then assault them.

Shamana
27-03-2011, 21:13
The Tau shooting basically relies on average accuracy (good for vehicles), high firepower and high volume. Tau shots might not always find the mark, but as long as they are strong enough and there are enough of them, it's all good - for you :D . IIRC Tau vehicles and battlesuits have their ways to boost their accuracy, and of course there are the markerlights - so overall, accuracy isn't the biggest problem for tau players. Numbers and power should be bigger considerations in the next codex imo :).

Bestaltan
27-03-2011, 21:14
....... without having to take a farseer.

Wow. So the rumor is the T'au have integrated the remaining Squats, and now the Eldar too??? These guys are worse than the Tyranids. ;)

But in all seriousness.......With the OP name's obvious reference to something else, post count, and this thread......Don't feed the trolls guys.

ClockBlock
27-03-2011, 21:15
...Who are you calling a troll?
I just thought the ballistic skill was low.

Reflex
27-03-2011, 21:22
you thought wrong... (om nom nom nom)

lordofevil
27-03-2011, 21:23
I believe their BS is average. They have even chances of hitting, and its understandable that they won't have a 2/3 shot at hitting whatever they are shooting at, as look at the years of training a Space Marine gets to get that. Also would you want to pay more per warrior?

Charistoph
27-03-2011, 21:26
Tau are meant to be an army that supports itself, hence the Markerlights.
Personally, Markerlights should be a lot cheaper/standard issue. And there shouldn't be such thing as a network markerlight, the markerlights should just happen.

Agreed.


Marker Drones are appropriate, since they give two marker lights to a unit AND they can move and shoot(see jetpack rules).
*Technically the Ancient FAQ for them says you can't(in the case of something that is slow/purposeful with marker drones), which is ludicrous considering that Jetpack units(which include all drones) are relentless. Oh well, heres hoping they fix that in the new version.

Point of Clarification, Marker Drones can only provide 2 Marker Lights, when there are 2 of them. Also, they may only move and shoot when attached to Crisis, Stealth, and Hazard squads. Marker Drones attached to Ethereals, Broadsides, or Fire Warrior/Pathfinder Shas'ui are all stick stuck as Move OR Shoot.


What kills the army for me, are all the armies that can outshoot tau and then assault them.

Sadly true. Only Grots question assaulting Fire Warriors.

Xabraxis
27-03-2011, 21:26
I believe their BS is average. They have even chances of hitting, and its understandable that they won't have a 2/3 shot at hitting whatever they are shooting at, as look at the years of training a Space Marine gets to get that. Also would you want to pay more per warrior?

I feel they're overpriced how it is.

At the veryleast you shouldn't have to pay for grenades or Bonding Knife.

Shamana
27-03-2011, 21:27
Wow. So the rumor is the T'au have integrated the remaining Squats, and now the Eldar too??? These guys are worse than the Tyranids. ;)

No kidding... these guys stole the "army-wide skimmers" schtick and the whole mobile firepower theme from the eldar, now they want to take the farseers too? Bloody greyskinned noseless magpies, the lot of them...

RobPro
27-03-2011, 21:28
They are bs3 as a tradeoff for shooting at S5, I think.

Xabraxis
27-03-2011, 21:30
No kidding... these guys stole the "army-wide skimmers" schtick and the whole mobile firepower theme from the eldar, now they want to take the farseers too? Bloody greyskinned noseless magpies, the lot of them...

All xenos should be ditched and just added as support troops to Tau.</trollface>

ClockBlock
27-03-2011, 21:37
...I thought we were talking about the BS, not about how they intergrated races...

Or stole from them, heh.

Wolf Lord Balrog
27-03-2011, 21:39
I think the BS3 is too low, and BS4 is easily justified. The Tau have had 'Targeting Array' technology since the first codex, you just say they learned how to better miniaturize it, and now all Fire Warriors have it as standard in their helmets/visors. Bang, problem solved. You wouldn't even have to raise any point costs in the Tau codex, because they are already overpriced for what they can do.

MikeyB
27-03-2011, 21:45
BS3 is a balance stat. If they where BS4 they'd hit way way too often and their weapons would have to be nerfed.

BS3 represents the skill of the shooter. To get their accuracy tau use tech like marker lights. I've always liked that it shows an army heavily reliant on technology to be any good which is what fluff would lead you to believe.

Then again if everyone was stated like fluff says Space marines would have T7 36 attacks and 27 wounds -.-

Dvora
27-03-2011, 21:45
For a species who has trouble focusing on distant, moving targets, I think BS4 is too high.

ihavetoomuchminis
27-03-2011, 21:48
Just compare a GK with Pshichyk ammo to a standar tau warrior. And don't begin with the sinergy thing.

Xabraxis
27-03-2011, 21:49
While this is here, I feel as if I am DUTY BOUND to Hijack this thread with a small discussion on changes that would help with Tau.

Kroot:
* Furious Charge and Fleet. The image of them leaping at their enemies from Dawn of War is awesome, and they should be allowed to do that. I was going to suggest beast movement, however since they ditched it from Tyranids I feel it'd be a bit much(and insult to injury).
* Krootox shouldn't remove stealth, and should be a 2 or 3 shot 18 inch range assault weapon(burst cannon!).

Devilfish
*Cheaper Devilfish. No, Really. Update decoy launchers maybe.
*Drone/turret options for all tau suit guns added. Also, Markerlight drones?

Firewarriors:
Roll grenades, and bonding knife into the standard gear.
Markerlight standard on sgt.
-Markerlights ARE network lights from here on. Upgrade in tech and all.
-Remove Sniper Drones from Heavy support, and instead allow you to buy a unit of sniper drones(maybe just 1 instead of the 1-3) per firewarrior team you buy.

Pathfinders: cheaper prices? I like them how they are because they're a good support unit.

Broadsides: Slow and purposeful as standard gear.

Skyray: Ditch it. you get a better anti-tank value by taking 3 hammerheads and giving them two seeker missiles each. Give Hammerheads marker light drones.


Suits are all pretty good. Add the Hazard suit, give some of the advanced options in the current codex as standard gear, come up with a slew of more prototype gear to play with. I'd change the cyclonic ion blaster to strength 4 rending.



Commander: Ethereal in a Crisis suit? whichever, Ethereals need to have a save and a good bodyguard. Maybe a special unit of firewarriors in Shadowsun's power armor.

carldooley
27-03-2011, 21:57
if the krootox was classed as a MC, it might balance somewhat the BS3 of standard fire warriors. why so, krootox are squad upgrades to kroot carnivore squads and such a designation would give the TE some much needed punch in CC. Right now, they have one power weapon in their army, and that one on a special HQ character.

Yes Space marines have BS4, and have received it as a benefit of their training. but that training is for everything from shooting to CC to survival & toughness. Firewarriors are specialists in that they focus on ranged shooting to the exclusion of just about everything else.

Xabraxis
27-03-2011, 22:00
if the krootox was classed as a MC, it might balance somewhat the BS3 of standard fire warriors. why so, krootox are squad upgrades to kroot carnivore squads and such a designation would give the TE some much needed punch in CC. Right now, they have one power weapon in their army, and that one on a special HQ character.

Yes Space marines have BS4, and have received it as a benefit of their training. but that training is for everything from shooting to CC to survival & toughness. Firewarriors are specialists in that they focus on ranged shooting to the exclusion of just about everything else.

The Krootox should not be a MC, especially since it goes inside a unit. Instead, they need the Kroot-rex or whatever it is called to be added into the army :p

Notanoob
27-03-2011, 22:06
Yes Space marines have BS4, and have received it as a benefit of their training. but that training is for everything from shooting to CC to survival & toughness. Firewarriors are specialists in that they focus on ranged shooting to the exclusion of just about everything else.
The key thing here is time. Tau live for something like 70 years, similar to normal humans. As a result, all of their dedicated training is only maybe 10 years of training, while space marines have been training since age 6 and are probably 50 years old when the get their power armor, around the same age as say a Shas'el. It makes sense.

What needs to happen is a wider availability of markerlights (all are networked at this point, remove the distinction) and some reworking of their rules to better fit 5th edition. Lots of gear made standard, cheaper transports, etc.

Perhaps +1BS a la Grey Knights Psybolt ammo granting +1BS?

Charistoph
27-03-2011, 22:06
Kroot:
* Furious Charge and Fleet. The image of them leaping at their enemies from Dawn of War is awesome, and they should be allowed to do that. I was going to suggest beast movement, however since they ditched it from Tyranids I feel it'd be a bit much(and insult to injury).
* Krootox shouldn't remove stealth, and should be a 2 or 3 shot 18 inch range assault weapon(burst cannon!).

Krootox don't remove stealth, they remove Infiltrate, but I agree. The Krootox should also have gun options, and the Carnivores have both assault and krak grenades. Charge as Beasts/Cavalry as an upgrade option would be better than Fleet. :evilgrin:


The Krootox should not be a MC, especially since it goes inside a unit. Instead, they need the Kroot-rex or whatever it is called to be added into the army :p

I'd want a Greater Knarloc myself.

Xabraxis
27-03-2011, 22:09
Krootox don't remove stealth, they remove Infiltrate, but I agree. The Krootox should also have gun options, and the Carnivores have both assault and krak grenades. Charge as Beasts/Cavalry as an upgrade option would be better than Fleet. :evilgrin:



I'd want a Greater Knarloc myself.

Knarloc, that was what I was looking for.

Like I said, the fact that they removed beast-movement from Tyranids make me hesitant to suggest it for Kroot. Of course I'm thinking about Balance. If some of the more notorious game-balance slaying writers did the tau, they'd be beast move for sure.

But yes, Infiltrate. They need to keep Infiltrate.


Also: Knarloc cav. In the spirit of Thunderwolf Cav: One statline, rending, lots of attacks.

AFnord
27-03-2011, 22:12
Tau are physically poorly "designed". They suffer from a slower than average reaction speed (with humans being average here), which also impacts their ability to shoot. A tau civilian would probably be even worse than a human civilian on a battlefield, but unlike the imperium, tau actually put a higher value on lives, thus their warriors receive more training. It is not enough to put them on par with Space marines, but it would probably put them slightly above the average guardsman. Tau shine due to their technology, but it is still not enough to entire make up for their poor genes.

Wolf Lord Balrog
27-03-2011, 22:17
It is not enough to put them on par with Space marines, but it would probably put them slightly above the average guardsman. Tau shine due to their technology, but it is still not enough to entire make up for their poor genes.

I disagree, I think Tau technology is fully capable of off-setting their weaknesses. If they can build battlesuits that give their elite warriors +1T and +2S, why can't they make a helmet-mounted micro-computer that can give all of their warriors +1BS?

Fluffwise I don't think you'd even have to say the techno is doing all the lifting in the difference between BS3 and BS4, I always thought Tau should have been slightly better marksmen than the average Guardsman anyway. The helmet-mounted Targeting Array just gives them the boost they need to get over the line into effective BS4.

ClockBlock
27-03-2011, 22:18
Explain to me where it specifically states in the Codex that Tau have slower reaction speeds than humans.

I've never seen it.

Deadnight
27-03-2011, 22:20
BS3 is a balance stat. If they where BS4 they'd hit way way too often and their weapons would have to be nerfed.


this was very true in third and early fourth. but with the current 5e codices, there is a very valid argument out there that the old way of thinking should go...




BS3 represents the skill of the shooter. To get their accuracy tau use tech like marker lights. I've always liked that it shows an army heavily reliant on technology to be any good which is what fluff would lead you to believe.


then again, few other races require a 200 odd point unit in order to perform beyond their usual expectations of *mediocre*.



Then again if everyone was stated like fluff says Space marines would have T7 36 attacks and 27 wounds -.-

and tyranids would be able to field 10X your points values. how things would be if theu were *real* is fairly irrelevant imo.



Kroot:
* Furious Charge and Fleet. The image of them leaping at their enemies from Dawn of War is awesome, and they should be allowed to do that. I was going to suggest beast movement, however since they ditched it from Tyranids I feel it'd be a bit much(and insult to injury).
* Krootox shouldn't remove stealth, and should be a 2 or 3 shot 18 inch range assault weapon(burst cannon!).


i disagree with FC. kroot are not a premier assault unit. they're light infantry skirmishers who can duke it out on occasion. they do need changes though. allow shaper led squads to take the evolutionary adaptations in the kroot merc dex, allow hunting (sniper) rifles and mounted options, and you've got something interesting.



Devilfish
*Cheaper Devilfish. No, Really. Update decoy launchers maybe.
*Drone/turret options for all tau suit guns added. Also, Markerlight drones?


cheaper is a given. suit weapon options? no. makes suits irrelevant. Now, if you allowed twin burst cannons, SMSs, railrifles on them, you've got something fun.



Firewarriors:
Roll grenades, and bonding knife into the standard gear.
Markerlight standard on sgt.
-Markerlights ARE network lights from here on. Upgrade in tech and all.
-Remove Sniper Drones from Heavy support, and instead allow you to buy a unit of sniper drones(maybe just 1 instead of the 1-3) per firewarrior team you buy.


h2 rifles, a2 carbines. remove sniper drone teams altogether, and just allow a shasui to get a drone controller with gun, shield, and rail rifle drones (who should use his BS too, since he IS controlling them...). i would not make MLs standard, but i would change how they work.



Pathfinders: cheaper prices? I like them how they are because they're a good support unit.

Broadsides: Slow and purposeful as standard gear.

Skyray: Ditch it. you get a better anti-tank value by taking 3 hammerheads and giving them two seeker missiles each. Give Hammerheads marker light drones.


pathfinders need something.
broadsides - different weapon mounts (possibly), t4(5).
skyray. pathfinder upgrade? rather than a HS, let it be a cheap *upgrade* for the squad with its load of seekers (more than 6 too!)



Suits are all pretty good. Add the Hazard suit, give some of the advanced options in the current codex as standard gear, come up with a slew of more prototype gear to play with. I'd change the cyclonic ion blaster to strength 4 rending.


meh. suits need more dakka. allow different builds (jump, jet, bike) movement. make MTs a special rule rather than an upgrade, and let them take 2 guns + 1 skill, or 1 gun and 2 skills as the older rumours suggested. asto the ion, make it s5. we're tau for gods sake. s4 is for wussies.



Commander: Ethereal in a Crisis suit? whichever, Ethereals need to have a save and a good bodyguard. Maybe a special unit of firewarriors in Shadowsun's power armor.

not too sold on etherials in suits. give them *leadership powers* that can buff everyone else, and not just the twin linked morale they currently have...

carldooley
27-03-2011, 22:20
Tau are physically poorly "designed". They suffer from a slower than average reaction speed (with humans being average here), which also impacts their ability to shoot. A tau civilian would probably be even worse than a human civilian on a battlefield, but unlike the imperium, tau actually put a higher value on lives, thus their warriors receive more training. It is not enough to put them on par with Space marines, but it would probably put them slightly above the average guardsman. Tau shine due to their technology, but it is still not enough to entire make up for their poor genes.

fair enough, I'll take a veteran's stats for firewarriors, and lose the increased I stat for the normal I2 of the tau in exchange for defensive grenades (or those tau ones who don't allow the +1A for charging in an assault).

night2501
27-03-2011, 22:23
Tau are physically poorly "designed". They suffer from a slower than average reaction speed (with humans being average here), which also impacts their ability to shoot. A tau civilian would probably be even worse than a human civilian on a battlefield, but unlike the imperium, tau actually put a higher value on lives, thus their warriors receive more training. It is not enough to put them on par with Space marines, but it would probably put them slightly above the average guardsman. Tau shine due to their technology, but it is still not enough to entire make up for their poor genes.

actually ... their reactions are on par with humans, the differenc eis in the eyesight, do not remember the exact explanation, but their eyes focus a bit slower on objects at different distance, on the other hand they can see on a wider spectrun than humans, making them more or less on par, the idea that tau have inferior eyesight and reflex (enough to grant worse stats at least), is mostly a misunderstanding.

edit:

oh and would be nice to get the option o nthe codex to make a kroot only army, even if it's just a option with a special char or a sublist

ClockBlock
27-03-2011, 22:28
Perhaps they should make a separate Kroot Codex for a warsphere...

night2501
27-03-2011, 22:29
Perhaps they should make a separate Kroot Codex for a warsphere...

we ar eno marines, no need to ask for such a thing right? :D

chaos_tau
27-03-2011, 22:36
Perhaps they should make a separate Kroot Codex for a warsphere...

you are RIGHT.
I'm sick to death of not being able to use my WArsphere in my tornny games. (i used a big ball with a flying stand attached and a cool kroot gunner. I'l upload the photos if I can borrow my moms camera)
I also think you are wright about the shameful BS that is the TAU. I no that everyone loves speece marinze on this site but lets be honest a TAU amy is for a certain type of refined player (if you know what i mean). I wonder if GW purposly makes them worse than their stupid poster boys cause they want to sell more marines.
any ways I hope in tye next codex they get the power buff they deserve (as long as they don't let matt ward right it ehh?)

ClockBlock
27-03-2011, 22:44
we ar eno marines, no need to ask for such a thing right? :d

What? I don't understand

Dyrnwyn
27-03-2011, 22:45
I always felt that Tau fire Warriors should be better than BS3, but not quite as good as BS4. This would be easily represented by giving them the old IG Sharpshooters rule - they can re-roll ones to hit.

The bearded one
27-03-2011, 22:47
Last edited by chaos_tau; 27-03-2011 at 23:36. Reason: spelling

Not to be rude, but maybe you should go over it one more time.
Unless you're dyslectic, then it's understandable.

I think the jump from BS3 to BS4 is slighty to big, but I wouldn't mind easier acces to veteran BS4 firewarriors apart from having to buy the walking target in a dress.

Bymis
27-03-2011, 22:58
I agree with the OP to some extent and IMO the game would be slightly more balanced if they went up to either 10 or 12 on more of the models and re did the table instead.

This whole issues comes down to a limited numbers of WS and as such makes it an odd comparison between the tau and space marines and other races too for that extent.

As its all based on a D6 more or less i think the difference in reality between a 3 and 4 is reasonable but in the fluff you would expect the tau to be more 3.5 not quite a SM but better than an Imperial Guardsman?

chaos_tau
27-03-2011, 23:03
Not to be rude, but maybe you should go over it one more time.
Unless you're dyslectic, then it's understandable.

I think the jump from BS3 to BS4 is slighty to big, but I wouldn't mind easier acces to veteran BS4 firewarriors apart from having to buy the walking target in a dress.

You spelt dyslexic wrong.

I think that all tau should have Minimum bs of 4. Why wouldn't they be better than marines. They are a shooty army after all.

Sekhmet
27-03-2011, 23:06
If you look at the average shots fired per kill in any war, you'll see ratios of 50,000 + bullets per kill.

If a tau shoots a guardsman in cover, he has a 1/2 chance to hit, 5/6 chance to wound, and 1/2 cover save, meaning about 5 shots to kill a guardsman with a pulse rifle.

I'd say the tau are WELL above the human average.

The bearded one
27-03-2011, 23:08
The game would not be playable if we had to fire that many bullets. Just imagine the "1 shot" a model has to be a shooting phase worth of shots. Marines don't fire 1 bolt at a time either.



You spelt dyslexic wrong.

I think that all tau should have Minimum bs of 4. Why wouldn't they be better than marines. They are a shooty army after all.

I'm sorry, I meant "a dyslectic". The point still stands though, regardless of my silly and ironic typo.

Firewarriors don't have BS4 like marines because they, like all marines, know that they can never be Ultramarines :p

Wolf Lord Balrog
27-03-2011, 23:09
If you look at the average shots fired per kill in any war, you'll see ratios of 50,000 + bullets per kill.

If a tau shoots a guardsman in cover, he has a 1/2 chance to hit, 5/6 chance to wound, and 1/2 cover save, meaning about 5 shots to kill a guardsman with a pulse rifle.

I'd say the tau are WELL above the human average.

The same Guardsman's buddy shoots back:

1/2 chance to hit, 1/2 chance to wound, 1/2 chance to overcome the cover save. Meaning it will take him only about 8 shots to kill the Tau. Humans are pretty well above the human average too. :p

CushionRide
27-03-2011, 23:16
as a former tau player i would have to agree with the above first like 5 posts here, but i would like to interject a fluff perspective.

personally i agree that with markerlights it makes a higher BS a bit unreasonable, but consider this, by fluff description tau are trained to handle their pulse rifles as well as the comparitave space marines. this statement is mentioned in the codex storyline several times.

if this was however employed in the rules then i would have to say the target array and the markerlights increasing BS would have to be removed, if they were not you would have more complaints about hitting at 2+ all the time

so in short as i have played the army for a good 5 years, i find the tau uniquely balanced and interesting in their own rite, i dont really find any reason for changes to the current dex. the only thing i think they should bring back is aun'shi. i was totally pissed when they took him out.

Sekhmet
27-03-2011, 23:25
The same Guardsman's buddy shoots back:

1/2 chance to hit, 1/2 chance to wound, 1/2 chance to overcome the cover save. Meaning it will take him only about 8 shots to kill the Tau. Humans are pretty well above the human average too. :p

Oh they are. Imperial Guardsmen are not the pieces of crap that we think they are on the table top. They're actually highly trained and picked from among the best of PDF forces.

MasterDecoy
27-03-2011, 23:45
point of clarification, when a weapon is assault 1, that doesnt necesseraly (or even frequently) mean he's shooting 1 bullet every shooting phase, its a unit of measure, like kilograms.

assault 1 weapons simply mean that the firer of the gun when utilizing the gun at peak efficiency has enough time to eliminate 1 hostile trooper, be that from burst fire, full auto or single shot modes.

I wager a las gun firing in a turn would be on burst or full auto, so in that 1 shooting phase the guardsman would probably be firing well over 50 times.

ehlijen
27-03-2011, 23:49
Against almost all targets BS3 S5 shooting is exactly as effective as BS4 S4 shooting (ie marines with boltguns). Only T2 or T1 would be more vulnerable to boltguns (ie ratlings and grots) while everything T8+ or AV10 or 11 is more vulnerable to S5 shooting.

So overall, a basic firewarrior is a mor potent ranged combatant than a bolter marine.

superdupermatt
27-03-2011, 23:50
For a species who has trouble focusing on distant, moving targets, I think BS4 is too high.

This pretty much leads me onto my point, T'au are short sighted (according to the fluff) so the BS3 is reflecting that, as a technological race they have means to get around this disadvantage (the markerlights). It's also a point of game balance, as their guns are S5

Axel
28-03-2011, 00:05
>That's one higher than an Ork's!

That means they get in 50% more hits...

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 00:28
1/3 actually, but it's still a lot more :)

herostoaces
28-03-2011, 00:44
fluff is a race or armies view point of them selves some what, so if you went by that sm would never miss same for Tau. BS3 is a good as it is the average.

Sekhmet
28-03-2011, 00:48
1/3 actually, but it's still a lot more :)
Depends on your point of view.

Orks get on average 2 hits per 6 shots while tau get 3 hits per 6 shots.
From the tau perspective, orks get 1/3 less hits. From the ork perspective, tau get 50% more hits.

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 01:00
Darn it, you're right.

None shall learn of my mistake! * brings up patented Tau mindwiping devices *

Lothlanathorian
28-03-2011, 01:45
The key thing here is time. Tau live for something like 70 years, similar to normal humans.

I seem to remember it being that the Tau were much shorter lived than humans, but, I can't seem to find anything anywhere on Tau lifespans. Could you provide a source for this?

Vaktathi
28-03-2011, 02:24
You spelt dyslexic wrong.

I think that all tau should have Minimum bs of 4. Why wouldn't they be better than marines. They are a shooty army after all.

The Imperial Guard is shooty army as well. It's almost entirely BS3.

nightgant98c
28-03-2011, 02:27
I would be fine with fire warriors as they are, if they were 2-3 points less. I can deal with bs 3, but at current cost, it should be higher.

The Imperial Guard is shooty army as well. It's almost entirely BS3.

They are considered shooty due to volume of fire. Tau are considered shooty, because they have good guns, and aren't good at anything else.
Guard are good, partly because they can pack more guns into a list than anyone, and overcome mediocre bs. Tau have great guns, but that strength doesn't balance out their weaknesses.

Sekhmet
28-03-2011, 02:30
I would be fine with fire warriors as they are, if they were 2-3 points less. I can deal with bs 3, but at current cost, it should be higher.

Things have been getting cheaper anyway, so when tau get an update, they'll either be better or cheaper. Same thing happened to Orks, IG, SM, etc.

Box
28-03-2011, 02:32
Ballistic skill of three is pretty fair, considering the Tau are near-sighted.

Surgency
28-03-2011, 02:32
The Imperial Guard is shooty army as well. It's almost entirely BS3.

With lots of templates, and lots and LOTS of guns...

Tau have 1 unit that has a decent template, and about the same number of guns as your average marine army




Things have been getting cheaper anyway, so when tau get an update, they'll either be better or cheaper. Same thing happened to Orks, IG, SM, etc.

This. The hard part will be getting by until that new codex comes. I'm hoping for July 2011 :p

zippy_tang
28-03-2011, 02:33
Why is it so many people don't understand the fine line between fluff and gameplay. Warhammer 40k is a game first and a story second. the rules that are written for the game are there to best represent the battlefield in the 41s millennium and its combatants within the balance of a game. This means even if a space marine is described as this or that in a novel by joe bloggs they are still designed in a way to allow a fun balanced game between imperial and xenos players.

The whole tau should have BS 4 dilemma while arguable fluffwise, it should be understood that such a change could be too powerfull within the confines of the rules. Anybody who has had a Devilfish with 12 Firewarriors jump out and rapid fire their marines (or anything) and watch them vanish before their eyes will understand the problem with BS4.

It is one of the many discussions that baffle me in the sense that everybody is so keen to get the game to be fluffwise but then they proceed to take an army with maxed out characters and full heavy support with two troops choices.

now the idea of veteran fire warriors is cool but once again they are kind of allready covered in their current rulebook. yes they have to baby sit a politician but then again who else would be guarding such a high priority target?

as incompetent as people think GW is, have you ever wondered that they may have more of an idea than most of us due to the 25+ years of experience...im just sayin

night2501
28-03-2011, 02:35
I would be fine with fire warriors as they are, if they were 2-3 points less. I can deal with bs 3, but at current cost, it should be higher.

That's the point, I think we all can deal with BS3 on FW, on shas vre I think it should be BS 4 base but that's another story, but at the current cost point is just bad, Markerlights help but they are jsut too expensive right now, and quite limited, I think a drop in cost for FW, Pathfinders, drones in general, as well as making the markerlights a bit more mobile would do the trick...

eldargal
28-03-2011, 02:40
Low BS? I thought the Tau were all BS.:shifty:

Seriously though, this is just a case of someone forgetting that stats of 4 are super human not standard. If more people remembered that half of the 'such an such is underpowered' whinging would dissapear over night.

ClockBlock
28-03-2011, 02:41
Depends on whatever you think.

Tarian
28-03-2011, 02:42
BS4 is superhuman? I should tell my Veterans and Sisters, they'll be happy to hear that.

eldargal
28-03-2011, 02:45
Super human was a poor choice of words, I should have said elite-super human. Far above average is the point.

Tarian
28-03-2011, 02:48
I know, though fluffwise, Vets should not shoot as well as a marine, but the downsides of using a 10 point system, right?

Charistoph
28-03-2011, 02:51
I've noticed a few inconsistencies here. According to fluff, the Tau are FAR sighted, not near sighted. They train as religiously with their arms as the Sororitas, who have BS4, to the general exclusion of close combat drills. According to fluff, they should be BS4.

But gameplay balance is needed, and with Marker Lights, Fire Warriors can shoot with obscene accuracy, and with battlesuits having access to Targetting Arrays AND Marker Lights, they are balanced by being BS 3.

They have a 4th Edition codex which was only a slight expansion of their 3rd Edition codex, so they are balanced for that. They fair decently compared to other old codecies (well, before the latest SM FAQ), so please keep the histrionics in check.

Rumor has them getting their next codex as "Soon", so then would be a good time to complain vociferously.

Box
28-03-2011, 03:04
I've noticed a few inconsistencies here. According to fluff, the Tau are FAR sighted, not near sighted.

What's the source for that? Not that I doubt you, but I recall them struggling to focus on objects at any significant range.

Charistoph
28-03-2011, 03:09
What's the source for that? Not that I doubt you, but I recall them struggling to focus on objects at any significant range.

I've had numerous people state that on Tau Online and Second Sphere. I know that their optical issues are not discussed in the codex, which is the only source material I personally own.

megatrons2nd
28-03-2011, 03:11
A new markerlight idea: It no longer adds to the BS of a firing unit. It now allows the Tau player to choose a model in the target unit, per markerlight, that must make an armor save. Possibly at a reduced armor/cover save. So if you want the plasma guy dead you can force him to take 6 saves specifically on that model if you previously hit with 6 markerlights.

This now frees up to upgrade the Tau to a BS of 4 and fits the fluff on the markerlight.

Starchild
28-03-2011, 03:21
Personally, Markerlights should be a lot cheaper/standard issue. And there shouldn't be such thing as a network markerlight, the markerlights should just happen.Agreed, we should see Pathfinders used more often so as to make Firewarrior gun lines viable (as depicted in nearly all the Tau artwork in 40k books)

Sekhmet
28-03-2011, 03:22
A new markerlight idea: It no longer adds to the BS of a firing unit. It now allows the Tau player to choose a model in the target unit, per markerlight, that must make an armor save. Possibly at a reduced armor/cover save. So if you want the plasma guy dead you can force him to take 6 saves specifically on that model if you previously hit with 6 markerlights.

That isn't all that useful considering 4th's current wound allocation rules.

marv335
28-03-2011, 03:25
I was under the impression that the Tau lifespan was in the region of 20 years (3rd ed codex I believe)

Wolf Lord Balrog
28-03-2011, 03:27
The whole tau should have BS 4 dilemma while arguable fluffwise, it should be understood that such a change could be too powerfull within the confines of the rules. Anybody who has had a Devilfish with 12 Firewarriors jump out and rapid fire their marines (or anything) and watch them vanish before their eyes will understand the problem with BS4.

You've had a squad of marines disappear under FW pulse rifle fire, really? You must have been the victim of horrible luck then, because the mathhammer just isn't with you. Say those 12 FWs had markerlight support, so they were shooting at BS5:

24 shots * BS5 * S5vT4 * Sv3+ = 4.44 MeQ kills

The remaining marines, even if there were only 2, could then charge the FWs the next turn and slaughter them.

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 03:29
I was under the impression that the Tau lifespan was in the region of 20 years (3rd ed codex I believe)

I thought it was about 40. Not very long, but not short either. 20 seems awefully short. If the trip through space to the battlezone takes too long half the firewarriors aboard might've died of old age.

Reflex
28-03-2011, 03:37
This argument could be argued for guard vets. Say they were bs 3 and it was simply the wargear options were what signified the veteran status. People would complains they should be bs 4 bleh bleh bleh. I think that would make guard more balanced actually. But that's for another day.

Just a point to ponder...

otakuzoku
28-03-2011, 03:55
the killer is the cost. markerlights are grate the problem is that pathfinders are the only relay effective way to use them. in a cohesive strategy, the rest is just a nice bonus. and the devilfish is the kick in the teeth makes them very expensive for a fast attack option at 1750. now if they were a troop choice and you could park them on an objective. the costs would be worth it. crisis suits need more bang for there buck. either drop the base price, of up the base ability. inc multi tracker and black sun filter in the cost, black sun on all vehicles would be a good start.

zippy_tang
28-03-2011, 04:11
You've had a squad of marines disappear under FW pulse rifle fire, really? You must have been the victim of horrible luck then, because the mathhammer just isn't with you. Say those 12 FWs had markerlight support, so they were shooting at BS5:

24 shots * BS5 * S5vT4 * Sv3+ = 4.44 MeQ kills

The remaining marines, even if there were only 2, could then charge the FWs the next turn and slaughter them.

the real question here is whether this is before or after the other 4 or 5 marines have been killed from long range fire in previous turns

also two marines "slaughtering" 12 fire warriors...thats a little over exagerated...i see a prolonged combat with the fire warriors the eventual winners.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 04:16
Troll or not, I agree with the OP.

I've been playing them since day 1, and I have always felt they should be BS4, to the man. In all seriousnes I never felt the markerlight worked well, and I would love to see it just be cut out of the book in trade for BS4 all around. Kroot should keep thier BS3, IMHO. Then you have a real choice to make between the two types.

Torpedo Vegas
28-03-2011, 04:18
I thought it was about 40. Not very long, but not short either. 20 seems awefully short. If the trip through space to the battlezone takes too long half the firewarriors aboard might've died of old age.
It is 40, says so in the BRB Tau fluff section.

Surgency
28-03-2011, 04:31
also two marines "slaughtering" 12 fire warriors...thats a little over exagerated...i see a prolonged combat with the fire warriors the eventual winners.

You've obviously never seen Firewarriors in combat... 2 Marines should run down the firewarriors within 2 turns. Low I/WS, and no real way to deal with Power Armour in HtH means that, barring luck taking a role, the Marines should kill 2 Firewarriors a turn(assuming no power weapons). That LD 8 that the FW have starts to drop real fast when they start taking casualties and can't produce any in return. Their only saving grace in HtH is a 4+ armour save, which the Marines can usually get past with their Sgt.

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 04:43
Recently I had 10 firewarriors with shas'ui that got charged by 1 scout marine ( I rapid fired the rest back to Calgar! ) and the firewarriors almost lost! I believe he killed 2 or 3 firewarriors. If it wasn't for the single hit, that turned into a single wound and a single failed safe, my firewarriors would've all just run away and get killed by the scout and his shiney knife. 1 scout (!) almost killed them all!

CaptainOtter
28-03-2011, 05:08
I'm a Tau player, and BS 3 makes plenty of sense. My Firewarriors are not elites, and are not highly trained. They are well trained, but take into account their short lifespans and I dont see any reason why they would be more accurate than a guardsmen.


Then take into account that the Tau have poor vision with distant, moving targets. You know, the kind that usually appear in wars and such.

What firewarriors do need is a point drop. 10 points is just too expensive for what you get, and they are suffering from the codex creep. I would argue crisis suits could use BS4 (they are in fully functional battle suits), but certainly not firewarriors.

Wolf Lord Balrog
28-03-2011, 05:12
I'm a Tau player, and BS 3 makes plenty of sense. My Firewarriors are not elites, and are not highly trained. They are well trained, but take into account their short lifespans and I dont see any reason why they would be more accurate than a guardsmen.

I would argue that compared to average Guardsmen, Fire Warriors are elite, on par with IG Veterans.

Also keep in mind that the Tau lifespan has little bearing here, as the average Guardsmen doesn't live any longer, and is given much less sophisticated training.

Blink
28-03-2011, 05:17
As a side note, looking at this topic's title... this is like the 4th time I've seen "ridiculous" spelled wrong on this site. It's getting ridiculous at this point.

Anyway, their low BS can be mitigated with Markerlights. And BS 3 isn't that bad to begin with.

Dvora
28-03-2011, 05:21
I honestly wish that BS4 was kind of rarer then it is right now.

Lord-Caerolion
28-03-2011, 05:56
Let's put it another way, the Tau are high-end BS3. If it were a 100pt scale, then they'd have higher than a Guardsman, but still lower than a Marine. Simplified to a mere 1-10 scale as this game is, they're just BS3. It's the same reason Orks are S3, despite being stronger than a Guardsman, who's also S3. The reason is because S4 is "able to tear through armour plating" strong, something the Ork, strong as it is, simply can't do.

Tau are good shots, nobody's denying that. It's just that their naturally bad eyesight prevents them from being BS4 good.

...Well, that and the fact that otherwise they'd be BS4 with a 30" S5 gun, for fairly cheap, and only slightly worse than Sisters in stats they wouldn't give a damn about.
As it stands, they're a midground between the horde-shooting of the Imperial Guard and the Tank-shooting of the Marines (as in RPG-tank. They might not be all that powerful, but they'll last to keep shooting). Tau don't have overwhelming numbers, and they aren't the greatest of shots (without Markerlight help, that is), but when they do hit, they hit hard.
Don't make them into "jumpy Marines", by giving them BS4, but toning down their guns to make up for it.

ehlijen
28-03-2011, 06:23
You've obviously never seen Firewarriors in combat... 2 Marines should run down the firewarriors within 2 turns. Low I/WS, and no real way to deal with Power Armour in HtH means that, barring luck taking a role, the Marines should kill 2 Firewarriors a turn(assuming no power weapons). That LD 8 that the FW have starts to drop real fast when they start taking casualties and can't produce any in return. Their only saving grace in HtH is a 4+ armour save, which the Marines can usually get past with their Sgt.

That presumes the firewarriors are not doing any kills in return. Yes, the odds are in the marine's favour, but any flukes in the statistical outcome are more likely to favour the firewarriors simply because they get to roll more dice and the 2 marines only have their 2 wounds to fall back on.

Same with the pulse rapid fire. Mathhammer may say it's worthless, but mathhammer also fails to account for the fact that with 24 dice being rolled, expected averages are easily ignored by reality.

Blink
28-03-2011, 06:31
No... expected averages are not easily ignored by reality. For every time there is one roll well above average, there is another well below. It's an average for a reason. You can HOPE that well above average roll will come now, but you can't expect it to.

VoodooJanus
28-03-2011, 06:37
I've seen this discussion regarding FW before (on ATT)

their general conclusion was (IIRC) as follows:

- two things can be done- either, the FW is lowered to 8pts per model, or remain as are and get boosted to BS 4. As it is, they're one of the most overpriced troops in the game.

Since it would completely break character to improve them in CC (and I personally REALLY don't want that) I'd have to say I'm a bigger advocate of dropping them to 8 pts a piece (because BS 4 is entirely too common these days...)

The Tau also need a big boost in firepower output. I'm not sure precisely how to do this, but because infantry squads for tau have no special weapons (and it should stay that way) they need some other way to bring in larger volumes of heavy firepower. Perhaps a new battlesuit weapon? Maybe a whole new battlesuit? I don't know, but something has to be done...

Also- under no circumstances remove the Skyray... I don't understand what everyone's animosity is towards that poor tank, but it's actually a pretty sweet deal when you break down the points. Sure, I'd usually rather have a Hammerhead, but I know a ton of folks who swear by the skyray (and it's pretty nifty when I dust it off from time to time.)

Not sure if it was a joke- but Tau didn't really steal the all-skimmer thing from the Eldar. Like the DE (who get open-topped skimmers,) Tau get a very specific set of skimmers (in this case, slow ones,) and left the superior speed to the Eldar (which I've always liked, personally.) CW Eldar will always be the kings of skimmer tanks.

ehlijen
28-03-2011, 06:51
No... expected averages are not easily ignored by reality. For every time there is one roll well above average, there is another well below. It's an average for a reason. You can HOPE that well above average roll will come now, but you can't expect it to.

Then you really don't understand propabilities. The laws of the universe do not conspire to make you roll more ones in turn two if you roll a lot of sixes in turn one. Every dice roll has it's own expected outcome that is completly independent of every other dice roll.

No, you can't hope for the above average, but you shouldn't assume the average is a given either, which is exactly what mathhammer does.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 06:51
I'm a Tau player, and BS 3 makes plenty of sense. My Firewarriors are not elites, and are not highly trained. They are well trained, but take into account their short lifespans and I dont see any reason why they would be more accurate than a guardsmen.


Then take into account that the Tau have poor vision with distant, moving targets. You know, the kind that usually appear in wars and such.

This kind of fluff-based arguement is killing me. How the hell do you know the rate at which they learn, or their capacity for skill, speaking of fluff? They are not blue human beings that happen to be retarded due to only living for 30 years, they are, in fact, not-really-well-developed, imaginary aliens. How could you even make a reasonable assumption based on that?

Or, fluffily speaking, they might be more accurate than a guardsman because the wear gigantic helmets with a camera that somehow looks into a big scope on their gun, while IG mostly get sunglasses to help them out with their shooting. Who cares? The real issue is that IG shoots better due to volume and variety, and can then kick their blue asses in CC when all the shooting is done, and that is the real game, not the bedtime story.

All sorts of animals in reality have poor eyesight and excell in hunting. There is no fluff reason why Tau need a BS3, or that it makes more sense than a BS4. Plus, I would love an exact reference to the poor eyesight rumor. As far as I can remember it was a line in a white dwaf almost 10 years ago. I do not even remember reading it myself, just hearing it bandied about from time to time on the forums.

Tau cannot really do anything else well, or CC at all for that matter, I do not see why they should not shoot just above average.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 06:57
Then you really don't understand propabilities. The laws of the universe do not conspire to make you roll more ones in turn two if you roll a lot of sixes in turn one. Every dice roll has it's own expected outcome that is completly independent of every other dice roll.

No, you can't hope for the above average, but you shouldn't assume the average is a given either, which is exactly what mathhammer does.

I have never heard someone else say that so well. It exactly why you respect math, but worship experience in this game.

Hellebore
28-03-2011, 07:00
This kind of fluff-based arguement is killing me. How the hell do you know the rate at which they learn, or their capacity for skill, speaking of fluff? They are not blue human beings that happen to be retarded due to only living for 30 years, they are, in fact, not-really-well-developed, imaginary aliens. How could you even make a reasonable assumption based on that?

Or, fluffily speaking, they might be more accurate than a guardsman because the wear gigantic helmets with a camera that somehow looks into a big scope on their gun, while IG mostly get sunglasses to help them out with their shooting. Who cares? The real issue is that IG shoots better due to volume and variety, and can then kick their blue asses in CC when all the shooting is done, and that is the real game, not the bedtime story.

All sorts of animals in reality have poor eyesight and excell in hunting. There is no fluff reason why Tau need a BS3, or that it makes more sense than a BS4. Plus, I would love an exact reference to the poor eyesight rumor. As far as I can remember it was a line in a white dwaf almost 10 years ago. I do not even remember reading it myself, just hearing it bandied about from time to time on the forums.

Tau cannot really do anything else well, or CC at all for that matter, I do not see why they should not shoot just above average.



It's from the Index Xenos article on the tau ie the single most complete reference to tau life and society GW has printed.

And your argument about them not being human also goes the other way too - they could be slower than humans at learning. Just because you've seen one variable doesn't make it the only answer.

The REASON tau are BS3 is because the 40k shooting rules are ****. 40k basically has a BS scale of 1-5 whilst everything else is 1-10. That halves the variation you can have and therefore requires everything to squash together more.

If their BS values opposed another value like Initiative then you coul have a higher BS without it having such a massive disparity in the game. Currently more than three quarters of the game uses 2 BS values - 3 and 4. Any higher and it's too good. So units have to be split between good (3) and better (4).

The tau are as trained as humans. All their technology goes towards making up for their physical limitations. A poorly trained human gunner is BS2 (conscripts) so a tau IS better than a human, when that human isn't a professionally trained soldier.

Whilst GW continue to use 2 stats for BS, Tau will remain BS3. If they ever decide to do something sensible then you might see BS3 guard, BS4 Tau and BS5 marines.

Hellebore

New Cult King
28-03-2011, 07:12
The problem is with the D6 system. If GW used a D10 system, they would be able to more accurately represent the differences between the different stats of different races :)

A BS3 represents anything better than an Ork, but not as good as a Space Marine.

MasterDecoy
28-03-2011, 07:15
You've obviously never seen Firewarriors in combat... 2 Marines should run down the firewarriors within 2 turns. Low I/WS, and no real way to deal with Power Armour in HtH means that, barring luck taking a role, the Marines should kill 2 Firewarriors a turn(assuming no power weapons). That LD 8 that the FW have starts to drop real fast when they start taking casualties and can't produce any in return. Their only saving grace in HtH is a 4+ armour save, which the Marines can usually get past with their Sgt.

um, 2 marines get 2 attacks and assuming no power weapons thats a 33% to fail to hit, 33% chance to fail to wound and a 50% chance that the fire warrior will pass his save, thats a mere 21% chance that each marine attack will kill 1 firewarrior vs each firewarriors 5% chance of slaying a marine.

12 firewarriors without a shas'la have approximatly a 46% (or 51% if they do have a shas'la) chance of slaying at least 1 marine against the marines 38% chance (or 62% if they charge and the firewarriors dont have defensive grenades) of slaying at least 1 firewarrior.

Id say thats a fight the firewarriors will probably actually win because each firewarrior loss doesnt drop the chance of killing at least 1 marine by much. The same cannot be said about a marine casualty though.

zippy_tang
28-03-2011, 07:16
I still see the issue with this discussion is the expectation of the games fluff and its direct effect on the statistics of the game. theoretically fluff can justify just about any statistic change so long as gamers wish to dig enough. This over justifying of in game rules through fluff is the cause of plenty of these threads.

I still stand on the opinion that the BS 4 while not necessarily broken in any sense is still largely un-warranted due to the race as a whole simply not needing it.

I agree the cost of fire warriors will be looked at by GW and in the future will most likely be addressed. besides that no rule change is needed.

Spell_of_Destruction
28-03-2011, 07:19
It could be worse for Fire Warriors...





...they could be Guardians!

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 07:30
It's from the Index Xenos article on the tau ie the single most complete reference to tau life and society GW has printed.

Thank you very much.



And your argument about them not being human also goes the other way too - they could be slower than humans at learning. Just because you've seen one variable doesn't make it the only answer.

I was only picking at what I thought was a flawed arguement. I am absolutely aware that it goes both ways. I thought that was clear, thanks for sharpening it for evryone else!



The REASON tau are BS3 is because the 40k shooting rules are ****. 40k basically has a BS scale of 1-5 whilst everything else is 1-10. That halves the variation you can have and therefore requires everything to squash together more.

Very interesting actually. I did not think of it that way. I guess saves are on that scale as well. Maybe a couple other things I am far to tired to see crearly right now. Still, I could see them as being BS4, especially with the squased system, if only for the fact that they have no CC, move no better than a normal army, really, and were designed to be a soft-ass, squishy shooting army. Come on! Lets get it going and throw a bone to the fighting blue-men!

Hellebore
28-03-2011, 07:33
With 4+ armour they are more survivable in melee than the eldar guardian, which has bettern WS and I. With a 30" S5 gun they are better at shooting than a guardsman.

They aren't as good as they could be with BS4, but they have other factors that make them good.

Hellebore

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 07:33
If that makes sense... Its late, and I've been distracted by a brunette while trying to formulate my point...

What the hell are you doing on the toy-network while you are within reach of a brunett!? Shame.

If my red-head was not out of town I would not be sitting hear right now myself.

Surgency
28-03-2011, 07:35
What the hell are you doing on the toy-network while you are within reach of a brunett!? Shame.

If my red-head was not out of town I would not be sitting hear right now myself.

because she's crying, and fussing, and I was waiting for the bottle to get done :p

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 07:35
With 4+ armour they are more survivable in melee than the eldar guardian, which has bettern WS and I. With a 30" S5 gun they are better at shooting than a guardsman.

They aren't as good as they could be with BS4, but they have other factors that make them good.

Hellebore

I believe that the cost of the FW vs the cost of the IG roughly balances them out, with the flexibility giving the Guard the advantage.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 07:36
because she's crying, and fussing, and I was waiting for the bottle to get done :p

I will be right there next year this time my friend!

Wolf Lord Balrog
28-03-2011, 07:37
If that makes sense... Its late, and I've been distracted by a brunette while trying to formulate my point...

I understand the distracting power of those brunettes. :D But you have made a mistake, there are actually much more than 3 general categories of outcome (for small number of SMs vs large number of FWs in CC):

high Tau rolls vs low SM rolls - Tau win
avg Tau rolls vs low SM rolls - Tau win
low Tau roll vs low SM roll - SM win
high Tau rolls vs avg SM rolls - Tau win
avg Tau rolls vs avg SM rolls - SM win
low Tau rolls vs avg SM rolls - SM win
high Tau rolls vs high SM rolls - SM win
avg Tau rolls vs high SM rolls - SM win
low Tau rolls vs high SM rolls - SM win

Now this is generalizing of course, since as much of a Mathhammer devotee as I am, I don't feel like running the numbers on all 46,656 discrete scenarios, but I think you get the idea. :)

TheLaughingGod
28-03-2011, 07:47
Basically, the entire answer to this, is that Tau are unevolved as a species and are not really adapted to galactic warfare, despite their surprising aptitude for technology. They've got BS3, which, I mean, they live 40 years tops, they can shoot as well as a trained human soldier. They're not going to approach Space Marine or Eldar level. They just don't have the biology, the lifespan or the talent. Space Marines and Eldar were created for the purpose of War. Tau evolved as crude hunter gatherers.

No comparison.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 07:53
Tau evolved as crude hunter gatherers.

So did humans.

Wolf Lord Balrog
28-03-2011, 07:59
Basically, the entire answer to this, is that Tau are unevolved as a species and are not really adapted to galactic warfare, despite their surprising aptitude for technology. They've got BS3, which, I mean, they live 40 years tops, they can shoot as well as a trained human soldier. They're not going to approach Space Marine or Eldar level. They just don't have the biology, the lifespan or the talent. Space Marines and Eldar were created for the purpose of War. Tau evolved as crude hunter gatherers.

No comparison.

How does that explain IG Vets with BS4 then?

Blink
28-03-2011, 08:18
Then you really don't understand propabilities. The laws of the universe do not conspire to make you roll more ones in turn two if you roll a lot of sixes in turn one. Every dice roll has it's own expected outcome that is completly independent of every other dice roll.

No, you can't hope for the above average, but you shouldn't assume the average is a given either, which is exactly what mathhammer does.

That's a stupid conclusion to make. I DO understand probabilities, but you're making an assumption based on something I'm not saying. The averages WILL balance out over the long term. Not from turn one to turn two. That will occur BECAUSE each roll is independent of the last. "Mathhammer" or statistics in general does not assume because one thing was rolled, the next will be something else. Over time, however, you will roll 1/6 of every number, and you can base many statistical accuracies based on that.

Following the math won't work 100% of the time, and it doesn't claim to (unlike what you said that it assumes you always average out almost immediately in your poor example), but over the long term certain rolls and options are CLEARLY better than others.

A great example of this is the Carnifex Crushing Claws. Statistically (and hilariously), they will perform WORSE than Scything Talons over the long term.

TheLaughingGod
28-03-2011, 08:23
So did humans.

True, however in 40k, they're in the process of evolving into psychic super-beings, they've evolved PAST that stage. Tau are essentially still cro-magnon men with plasma guns and battlesuits.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 08:51
True, however in 40k, they're in the process of evolving into psychic super-beings, they've evolved PAST that stage. Tau are essentially still cro-magnon men with plasma guns and battlesuits.

Only assuming that they evolved in a comparative biological manner. It smake believe and the tau evolve from ape to human level in something like 6000 years due to the supposed influence of the warp or chaos or something unresolved. That influence may have evolved them FURTHER than humans at this point. The fluff is almost always retarded, and frequently changes, and almost always morphs to allow/dissallow whatever GW needs to do at whatever moment.

What is really important is what is concrete and not subjective... points, stats and rules. Even if we pretend GW involves fluff in that process, nothing matches their fluff-value, and most things far under-preform their supposed fluff-capabilities.

I'd tell you where you could put fluff, but GW already does that every time a new codex comes out, or an edition changes.;)

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 08:52
How does that explain IG Vets with BS4 then?

ssshhhhhh! You will undermine the whole arguement!;)

MakWiesel
28-03-2011, 09:19
I have to ring this bell again gang...

Our problem is using the stupid 6-sided dice! It means that any step up or down by one number is an 17% slide! Move 2 numbers away and it's a 33% slide! This leaves no room for fine-tuning one unit to be " a little" better than another.

If we moved to the D12- (which IS different than 2d6) then each numerical drift is only a little over 8%. It's not as complex as using a big D20 but opens up a TON of space for tweaking and fine-tuning. Imagine it like this- in an Ork Army where Orks hit 32% of the time (BS 3 on a D12 scale), Gretchin could hit 40% of the time with a Ballistic Skill of 4 on a D12 scale.

Try it at home in a friendly game with your friends and see if it doesn't work smoothly and give better options...

Spell_of_Destruction
28-03-2011, 09:28
I have to ring this bell again gang...

Our problem is using the stupid 6-sided dice! It means that any step up or down by one number is an 17% slide! Move 2 numbers away and it's a 33% slide! This leaves no room for fine-tuning one unit to be " a little" better than another.

If we moved to the D12- (which IS different than 2d6) then each numerical drift is only a little over 8%. It's not as complex as using a big D20 but opens up a TON of space for tweaking and fine-tuning. Imagine it like this- in an Ork Army where Orks hit 32% of the time (BS 3 on a D12 scale), Gretchin could hit 40% of the time with a Ballistic Skill of 4 on a D12 scale.

Try it at home in a friendly game with your friends and see if it doesn't work smoothly and give better options...

I agree with what you're saying - the use of a D6 system means that a single BS value covers a range of abilities.

I can't see GW ever using a more complex system for the tabletop though. Even in 2nd ed, which used D4s, D8s, D10s, D12s and D20s to hit rolls were done with a D6. That level of complexity is not too difficult for most players to manage but is it really necessary?

Now that I really think about it, I'm not sure. As the rules have been increasingly streamlined and standardised there sometimes seems to be little separating the units of different armies. You're suggestion would definitely allow for greater differentiation.

D20 and D100 systems are normally reserved for RPGs though were fine levels of advancement are desirable. Perhaps the level of abstraction the 40k system represents is best served by a simple D6 system.

Ivellis
28-03-2011, 09:33
The use of d6 and a 1-10 scale seems to push for a lot more special rules to be used, which lots of people complain about. If there was more difference between the statistics of units we wouldn't need those rules.

Which is why I'm a huge advocate of seeing a move stat return.

ehlijen
28-03-2011, 09:40
It's not even supposed to be a 1-10 scale. It's a 1-6 scale with a bit of extra on the top to account for things that are truly beyond the ordinary.

Spell_of_Destruction
28-03-2011, 09:41
The use of d6 and a 1-10 scale seems to push for a lot more special rules to be used, which lots of people complain about. If there was more difference between the statistics of units we wouldn't need those rules.

Which is why I'm a huge advocate of seeing a move stat return.

The removal of the movement statistic was one of the dumbest things that GW have ever done but the problem is that the standard 6" movement has been an integral part of movement and assaulting since 3rd ed was released. They had to tag on a bunch of extra rules to cover up this error.

But anyway, we're as risk of derailing the Topic.

Bloodknight
28-03-2011, 09:42
This kind of fluff-based arguement is killing me. How the hell do you know the rate at which they learn, or their capacity for skill, speaking of fluff? They are not blue human beings that happen to be retarded due to only living for 30 years, they are, in fact, not-really-well-developed, imaginary aliens. How could you even make a reasonable assumption based on that?

I think since they are blue, half-blind runts that naturally suck at both close combat and shooting they need a lot of technology and training to even get them to BS 3. I would assume they really chose their shooty way of life because CC ended up being much more deadly to them. Just because they're shooty doesn't mean that each guy has to be great at it, it's that the other option would even be worse. ;). From a game design PoV they'd probably be too good at BS4. I assume they were playtested at that level and then reduced to 3 when they came out first. I think I read that somewhere back in the day, but I don't remember where.




All sorts of animals in reality have poor eyesight and excell in hunting.

Yeah, but how many of those hunt with a rifle because they're too weak to overwhelm their prey otherwise? ;).


edit: you also have to take into account that the Tau were designed under a different LOS rule. In 3rd and 4th edition it was pretty much impossible to win with guard against Tau if the Tau player knew what he was doing and there was enough terrain on the table.

Wolf Lord Balrog
28-03-2011, 09:48
There might be room for a special rule as a solution. Somebody earlier suggested giving Tau the old IG 'Sharpshooters' rule (re-roll 1s to-hit).

For a BS3 model, 'Sharpshooters' is a 16.67% increase in accuracy, from 50% to 58.33%. This is exactly half of the difference between BS3 and BS4, and might be a good way to represent 'better than a Guardsman, but not as good as a Space Marine'.

Vaktathi
28-03-2011, 10:02
edit: you also have to take into account that the Tau were designed under a different LOS rule. In 3rd and 4th edition it was pretty much impossible to win with guard against Tau if the Tau player knew what he was doing and there was enough terrain on the table.

Gahhh I remember those days.



That said, with Tau being one of my multitude of armies, I'm ok with them at BS3 for Fire Warrios personally, but they also need a dramatic recosting, probably 70pts for 10 with a sergeant equivalent instead of over 100pts. Although I also wouldn't be too hurt if they went with Balrog's suggestion of the old IG Sharpshooters rule and made them 80pts with sergeant equivalent to represent additional advanced targeting aids within their helmets. The sergeant equivalent should also not have an extra attack but rather should help improve the units survivability or shooting. Perhaps something like "if the unit did not move this turn, and successfully passes a leadership test, it may reroll all failed to-hit rolls in the shooting phase" or some such thing. That would make the unit a fair bit scarier, as well as help encourage units to be something other than minimum sized scoring upgrades for Devilfish.

Though suits should probably be BS4, being large enough to stabilize weapons systems and contain extensive targeting equipment and sensor gear.

Armchair General
28-03-2011, 10:38
How does that explain IG Vets with BS4 then?

When Tau train their troops by throwing 10,000 into a meatgrinder and waiting until there are only a handful left alive, then they can have BS4, because Vets training will be comparable ;).

ihavetoomuchminis
28-03-2011, 12:20
Didn't you know? Only the forces of the imperium can have BS4 on his troops. The rest are there for training marines and IG vets.

Deadnight
28-03-2011, 12:40
the argument that tau need to stay at bs3 for balance is fine when you consider third ed armies. but its fifth ed? no offense, but the power curve has been pushed way out. Im not necessarily for bs4, and im not necessarily against it. But i am against the blind obbsessive desire that they *must* stay as they are, just because... the game has changed, people. the old order has fallen. the argument that bs4 fire warriors wouls break the game is flawed, if you aske me. especlally in a game populated by new blood angels, valkyrie guard, space wolves, greyknights etc. *shrug* and lets face it, with a faster, more in your face game, its not that tricky to get into cc with them (scouting, outflanking, cheap transport, infiltrating) and outshooting them is always an option. and for a race famous for shooting, its amazing how pretty much everyone else outshoots them...

the ways to fix them are
(1) bs4. again, there is an argument to be made both ways. i think enough of the game has changed that *bs4* is no longer a no go area...
(2) cheaper. im against this. tau are a more *elite* army than *horde* spammed crappy infantry is not the answer. Fair enough, they're cheaper, so i can take more of them? No, because they still suck. why would i take *more* of a bad thing? i'll do what i do now, buy the minimum six, and spend my points on stuff that is actually useful.
(3)increase in dakka. here is where you go. heavy 2 rifles, assault 2 carbines, free drone controllers with gun drones for all maxed size squads. upgrade the gun drones to shield, rail rifle, or pulse submunition drones. and let drones controlled by a drone controller use the controllers BS, not their own (he is, you know, controlling them. stands to reason he aims them too).

Spell_of_Destruction
28-03-2011, 13:16
the argument that tau need to stay at bs3 for balance is fine when you consider third ed armies. but its fifth ed? no offense, but the power curve has been pushed way out. Im not necessarily for bs4, and im not necessarily against it. But i am against the blind obbsessive desire that they *must* stay as they are, just because... the game has changed, people. the old order has fallen. the argument that bs4 fire warriors wouls break the game is flawed, if you aske me. especlally in a game populated by new blood angels, valkyrie guard, space wolves, greyknights etc. *shrug* and lets face it, with a faster, more in your face game, its not that tricky to get into cc with them (scouting, outflanking, cheap transport, infiltrating) and outshooting them is always an option. and for a race famous for shooting, its amazing how pretty much everyone else outshoots them...

Where does it end though? If you make a case for the basic Fire Warrior going up to BS4 then what about Guardians going up to BS4 and Aspect Warriors up to BS5? Marines will need WS5 BS5 too won't they? It'll hardly be game breaking will it?.......

You have to draw the line somewhere. I think that making IG vets BS4 was a big mistake - the case can be made for Stormtroopers because they're the best of the best that (non GM) humanity has to offer.

Earthbeard
28-03-2011, 13:36
...Who are you calling a troll?
I just thought the ballistic skill was low.

Tau have poor depth perception and it's a balance issue - the end.

ehlijen
28-03-2011, 13:41
No, 3rd ed armies are not less powerful than 5th ed armies in general. 3rd ed still gives us 6 point plasma guns, 6 man lasplas and free deepstrike on entire armies.

What has changed is that the rules focus on different things now. First turn assaults have become possible and even common now. Transports have become cheaper. Scoring units have become vital while killpoints were introduced.

Some of these things have hit the Tau: first turn assaults are bad. But they always had to deal with the possibility of having to advance towards nids as objective missions are nothing new.
Tau transports are now way more expensive. That should change.
Tau had plenty of scoring units that weren't firewarriors, now they don't. That has pressed firewarriors into roles many people don't want to see them in. Coupled with monat suit hide and seek being serverly curbed due to the TLOS and killpoint rules this has pushed firewarriors into the line of fire harder than they could stand, but it doesn't make firewarriors actually bad.

The Tau have a balance in total unit number to scoring unit number that worked fine in 4th ed and 3rd ed, but in 5th they're underequipped for objective missions and too KP heavy for annihilation missions, on average. That needs addressing, possibly by moving stealth suits to troops or adding a new troops unit or even by making carbines so good firewarriors might not mind closing anymore (ie replace the useless pinning with something worthwile, like a second shot).

But rifle firewarriors still do what they're meant to do nicely: ranged fire support of more important units.

Xelloss
28-03-2011, 13:44
Tau have poor depth perception and it's a balance issue - the end.
I see it more like a design choice. "Balance" is kind of odd to speak of in the Tau codex (in any codex in fact). Low BS, high Str. If everyone was MEq it would be boring (well more than already).

VoodooJanus
28-03-2011, 14:03
the argument that tau need to stay at bs3 for balance is fine when you consider third ed armies. but its fifth ed? no offense, but the power curve has been pushed way out. Im not necessarily for bs4, and im not necessarily against it. But i am against the blind obbsessive desire that they *must* stay as they are, just because... the game has changed, people. the old order has fallen. the argument that bs4 fire warriors wouls break the game is flawed, if you aske me. especlally in a game populated by new blood angels, valkyrie guard, space wolves, greyknights etc. *shrug* and lets face it, with a faster, more in your face game, its not that tricky to get into cc with them (scouting, outflanking, cheap transport, infiltrating) and outshooting them is always an option. and for a race famous for shooting, its amazing how pretty much everyone else outshoots them...


Yeah, I agree- but I'd rather make taking Markerlights far more practical/cheaper. It reinforces the synergy of the army, and helps differentiate its playstyle, while still solving the problem of lower than average BS (I mean that the percentage of army books with an average BS lower than 4 is under 50%. Even if BS 4 is supposed to be super-human.) I'm against BS 4 because it takes away some degree of usefulness from the ML.

carldooley
28-03-2011, 14:10
maybe increase the base BS of the markerlight? I cannot understate the number of times that I have rolled for markerlights and missed with them. I agree that all squad based markerlights should become networked markerlights on account of the fact that a shas'el's markerlight cannot support its own squad, and requires a HW target lock to use both the markerlight and the rest of the squad's firepower.

maybe, make markerlights assault weapons? or bring back the old grav-stabilized weapons from the deathwatch list for pulse weapons (heavy Y or assault X weapons).

Hellebore
28-03-2011, 14:39
You can use rules like 'motion predictor - all tau re-roll 1s to hit when making BS tests.'

It's not the same as BS4 but still something.

Personally I think that instead of getting +1attack the sergeants should get BS4. Everything from Shas'ui up should be BS4 minimum. However it means battlesuits would only have 1 attack in melee.

Giving tau a BS advance instead of melee advance makes far more sense. WS4 A4 commanders is stupid.

EDIT: Battlesuits depending on how you want to go could be equipped with targetting devices that count every weapon mounted as a twin-linked weapon instead of actually having to have two of one weapon type. They become more like a gun platform rather than a S5 A3 (charging) Sv3+ assault unit. Battlesuits are about as effective as ogryns in melee... (not that ogryns are necessarily good, but an army built around application of overwhelming firepower looks wierd when an ostensibly gunbased unit is great in melee too).

Hellebore

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2011, 14:49
Low Bs?

Tau are bs3 for the most part
Target locks improve that to Bs4
A single Markerlight bumps that to Bs5.

Orks are Bs2,
Anyone better than an ork but not as good as a Marine/Eldar is Bs3
Marines/Eldar are Bs4

Nothing wrong with Bs3.
Especially not with so many easy ways to bump it to bs3 or 4.

If you want bs4 troops, pick Dark eldar or one of the many many marine books.

Hellebore
28-03-2011, 14:51
Well for ease of use they could simplify marker lights to the motion predictor idea I gave above - 'A unit with a marker light re-rolls 1s to hit' instead of using tokens and rolling to hit with the markerlight. Or simply say 'it costs 25pts to give a unit markerlights. Any shots at greater than 12" count as BS3' - to reflect long range accuracy rather than short range suppression.

Hellebore

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 15:02
Tau are bs3 for the most part
Target locks improve that to Bs3

Those 2 typo's together still form the truth :)
A target lock doesn't improve BS, so it'd still be BS3 :p


I think Tau need something. They're supposed to be the shooting army of 40K but other armies can outgun them ( and beat them in CC, because Tau CC is.. well.. pathetic.. )

Actually I wouldn't mind seeing CC battlesuits with powa weapons :cool: That'd be cool.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2011, 15:10
Tau have something.

Markerlights, and target locks on vehicles and suits.
Plus they can "split fire" with the right upgrades.

They're not "the" shooting army of 40k at all.
That's just a title people gave them when they saw that they weren't brilliant at combat.

Guard are a much more shooty army.
Sure, the basic guy doesn't have a 30" range st5 weapon..he also doesn't get a 4+ save.
What he does have is a lot of buddies and access to most weapons marines do in gretaer numbers than the marine player, plus a rediculous amount of supporting fire from tanks.
Guard get the battlecannon afterall.

ehlijen
28-03-2011, 15:13
Tau are supposed to be the MOBILE shooting army of 40k. They are not just about the guns. And their guns are bloody brilliant.

They have above average resilience (not as good as marines, but better than IG or Dark Eldar). They have above average speed (most armies can outrun them if they put their minds to it, but most need to make major sacrifices to achieve that). And they have above average firepower (their guns are awesome, their tech helps them compensate for BS3 and target locks help them put their fire where it needs to be better than others).
Their CC is below average; they have some of the stats, but they lack special CC gear.

To reduce them to 'they shoot better than everyone else and suck at CC' is to take everything that is more than paper deep away from them.

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 15:13
Well.. they're just about the worst CC army, not very fast ( though have nifty movement like battlesuit jumping ), and can be outclassed in shooting. Their resilience isn't that amazing and most of it is about as tough as IG or Eldar in cover: T3 with a 4+. As far as resilience goes, marines are the average because 8 armies are MEQ's. Only battlesuits are resilient but mine fall prey to melta's, plasma's, missiles, str 10 templates, JotWW's so usually die in 1 hit.
What are they really good at?
"They've got markerlights.." that can't be all, can it?

I'm still a 40K newb though so my opinion can't be relied on in any case.

ehlijen
28-03-2011, 15:24
Well.. they're just about the worst CC army, not very fast ( though have nifty movement like battlesuit jumping ), and can be outclassed in shooting. What are they really good at?

Not all armies have multiwound, 2+ save, multiple S5 attacks heavy support shooting units. Few armies have 4 attacks base on their HQs. Few armies have multiple S4 attacks from cheap troops models.

No, Tau combat is not great, but it's not entirely bad either. It's good in places, but too spread around the units to make any of them truly good at it.

For speed they have semi-fast skimmer tanks and transports, jetpack units, Cheap infiltrators, fleeting jumpers and plenty of deep striking.
They are certainly not slow.

And apart from IG, no one has as much freedom in target priority as the Tau do thanks to target locks and mobile firepower in all slots. No army can reposition it's firepower to deal with fast enemies as effectively as the Tau.

But no, firepower is not the Tau 'shtick'. Flexibile firepower is.

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 15:28
Sounds logical

Though any old powerfist will kill any battlesuit in 1 hit. Str5 attacks are nice but not very useful with only Ws2 and in general strength is worth a lot less in 40K than it is in Fantasy. In fantasy str 5 is huge, in 40K a broadside with str 5 is 'mhye, okay'

Hrogoff the Destructor
28-03-2011, 15:36
I don't think Tau having bs4 would be too far of a stretch. For one, Tau have short lives and are known to adapt quickly. I think their short lifespan could compensate for this quicker than most races. Secondly, they have great targeting systems. I don't see any reason why Tau weapons couldn't have mini-smart systems inside them. And thirdly, when was the last time we saw Tau's range save their army? 4th edition?

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2011, 15:52
Sounds logical

Though any old powerfist will kill any battlesuit in 1 hit. Str5 attacks are nice but not very useful with only Ws2 and in general strength is worth a lot less in 40K than it is in Fantasy. In fantasy str 5 is huge, in 40K a broadside with str 5 is 'mhye, okay'

Guard powerfist? Those don't insta-kill Tau battlesuits.

Ws2 is a 4+ to hit, vs a marine you need ws5 before you start altering what you need to hit on.
Ws2 really isn't that big an issue.

The combat issue for them is that most people have marines or orks, and those guys usually have a st8 powerfist that will break the suit in one go.
Vs things that haven't got loads of power weapon attacks, or that st8 powerfist their 3+/2+ save and heap of st5 attacks do them just fine in a fight.

Keichi246
28-03-2011, 15:57
OK, I have a single question to all respondents in this thread.

1) How many have played with/against the Tau multiple times under 5th edition rules against 5th edition designed codexes?

EVERYTHING 5th edition (with the sole exception of the tyranids - and even they can put out a scary amount of firepower) can easily outshoot them in the shooting phase and WAY outfight them in the assault phase. And because 5th edition is a far faster game - the famed "30 inch range advantage" is RARELY used. Heck - As a Tau player, I consider myself to be having a hell of a good game if I'm not losing multiple units to assaults on turn 2...

That's the problem in a nutshell. The core Tau design conceit of "focused firepower against the most dangerous threat" is truly falling apart under the "faster, shootier,assaultier" of the 5th edition codexes.

To be honest - Tau Firewarriors are some of the least effective models in the codex nowadays. Yes they have a good gun - but they rarely get to use it because every other 5th ed army (except the nids) has either a huge amount of firepower or assault power that will blot the *scoring* unit out in a heartbeat if they poke their head out of the APC they are hiding in.

Ehlijen - judging by your responses - I presume you are comparing the IG and the Tau. I'd respond by saying the following. The Tau basic transport weapons have 1/2 to 2/3rds the range of all other transports in the game - (and can only be expensively upgraded to equal to the lowest of the others) . The Tau DON'T have access a fast transport (nor it's tankhunter variant). The Tau have LESS access to large blast templates than any other army out there (and little access to flamer templates).

Sorry - your points held true for 4th edition, and even the earliest days of 5th. But EVERY 5th eidtion codex is moving faster and outshooting the Tau right now.

Bloodknight
28-03-2011, 15:58
I don't see any reason why Tau weapons couldn't have mini-smart systems inside them

The horrifying idea could also be that the Tau have that already and it makes them BS3 ;).

Aluinn
28-03-2011, 16:01
Stat inflation is becoming a problem lately, so I'm not sure that I'd favor raising them to BS4. I don't generally buy into slippery slope arguments, but this phenomenon has shown itself to indeed be a slippery slope already: SM Captains go up to WS6, for example, then DE Archons have to have WS7 because they should be higher, and, next up, I'm sure that Autarchs will also have WS7, when 6 used to be fine for them. When it comes time to write the next Codex: Space Marines, well, why can't SM Captains be as good at using weapons as an Archon, really? Let's give them WS7!

On the other hand, I don't think that the fluff demands Fire Warriors to be BS3. Yeah there's a fluff explanation for it, but then, it never really needed one, and there are perfectly fine justifications for BS4, too (they obviously have targeting systems built into their helmets, and even more advanced ones on their battlesuits, for example). It isn't broken, either.

The truth is, though, there are other ways to make them better at shooting. What we're talking about here, really, is how good they are, right? Well, if they aren't good enough as they currently are, then you could do many things: Lower their points cost, buff their weapons (e.g. give them AP4), give them weapon upgrades, throw them some special rule in addition to the use of markerlights, make it easier for them to use markerlights, buff markerlights ... I could go on. BS4 is neither right nor wrong, inherently, but if the issue is FW being good at shooting for their cost, it is just one potential tool in a very large box.

Surgency
28-03-2011, 16:37
No, Tau combat is not great, but it's not entirely bad either. It's good in places, but too spread around the units to make any of them truly good at it.

No, I'd have to say it is entirely bad. No power weapons, 4+ save, WS/I 2 on all of their standard options (barring Kroot and HQ) makes for a unit that is bad in CC. The only unit that Tau can reliably handle in CC is grots, or other tau. Even IG have the option of taking power weapons, and better WS/I.

Now, I'm not saying to bump up their BS, or their CC abilities, but bringing the price down to under 10ppm would be a great solution, as has been mentioned several times (I think 8-9).




And apart from IG, no one has as much freedom in target priority as the Tau do thanks to target locks and mobile firepower in all slots. No army can reposition it's firepower to deal with fast enemies as effectively as the Tau.

I'd say that the Eldar and DE can reposition their firepower much better than the Tau. The IG are close with Vendetta spam lists, and Marine are getting there with their land speeders and new skimmer. Tau skimmers aren't that mobile, with the exception of the pirahnna. The Devilfish can only shoot as if it were fast, which doesn't provide much of an advantage when you move slower than Blood Angel transports. Eldar of both varieties are still the kings of mobility, despite what you want to argue, and the recent addition of skimmers to IG and Marine lists brings them on par with tau mobility, if not better than.

As for freedom in target priority, Eldar, DE are pretty free. They may not have target locks, but in the long run target locks aren't all that great anymore. A single model shooting between 2-6 shots at a unit that will typically still get, at worst, a 4+ cover save makes splitting fire less beneficial now than it was before. Now you're better off pouring all your fire into a single unit trying to eliminate them through ROF, just to get around the plethora of cover saves.

carldooley
28-03-2011, 17:20
okay if mobility is where it is at, how about an army-wide rule that follows something along the lines of the Tervigon's power that allows a unit to run and then fire its weapons after the run move?

Castigator
28-03-2011, 17:30
Stat inflation is becoming a problem lately, so I'm not sure that I'd favor raising them to BS4. I don't generally buy into slippery slope arguments, but this phenomenon has shown itself to indeed be a slippery slope already: SM Captains go up to WS6, for example, then DE Archons have to have WS7 because they should be higher, and, next up, I'm sure that Autarchs will also have WS7, when 6 used to be fine for them. When it comes time to write the next Codex: Space Marines, well, why can't SM Captains be as good at using weapons as an Archon, really? Let's give them WS7!

On the other hand, I don't think that the fluff demands Fire Warriors to be BS3. Yeah there's a fluff explanation for it, but then, it never really needed one, and there are perfectly fine justifications for BS4, too (they obviously have targeting systems built into their helmets, and even more advanced ones on their battlesuits, for example). It isn't broken, either.

The truth is, though, there are other ways to make them better at shooting. What we're talking about here, really, is how good they are, right? Well, if they aren't good enough as they currently are, then you could do many things: Lower their points cost, buff their weapons (e.g. give them AP4), give them weapon upgrades, throw them some special rule in addition to the use of markerlights, make it easier for them to use markerlights, buff markerlights ... I could go on. BS4 is neither right nor wrong, inherently, but if the issue is FW being good at shooting for their cost, it is just one potential tool in a very large box.


The point is.. if Tau are "good" at shooting, the rule to represent shooting-skill is BS.

Fidgeting around with add-on rules (including the current ML-system) to "improve their shooting" without "improving their shooting-stat" is just adding another layer of pointless special rules and exception to "simulate" an effect that a simple BS4 (or 5 or 6 or whatever) would have done much more simply.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2011, 17:40
Make tau bs10 then, with twin linked everything.
Now dock all weapons to ap- and st1.

By Castigators logic, tau are now "the best" at shooting.
Since they have the best ballistic skill.

If you don't like "add on" rules, go play snakes and ladders.
Although you'de no doubt want to get rid of the snakes and ladders because that's just adding extra unnecessary rules, right?

Castigator
28-03-2011, 17:51
Make tau bs10 then, with twin linked everything.
Now dock all weapons to ap- and st1.

By Castigators logic, tau are now "the best" at shooting.
Since they have the best ballistic skill.

If you don't like "add on" rules, go play snakes and ladders.
Although you'de no doubt want to get rid of the snakes and ladders because that's just adding extra unnecessary rules, right?

I never said Tau should be "the best" at shooting.

I said, responding to previous posts, that if Tau should be good at shooting (i.e. if the design-goal is to improve their shooting), you should raise BS. If they should be "the best", than yes, their BS should be the highest.

If Tau should not be good, or "the best", don't change their BS. Simple and just as fine with me.

samiens
28-03-2011, 18:45
OK, I have a single question to all respondents in this thread.

1) How many have played with/against the Tau multiple times under 5th edition rules against 5th edition designed codexes?

EVERYTHING 5th edition (with the sole exception of the tyranids - and even they can put out a scary amount of firepower) can easily outshoot them in the shooting phase and WAY outfight them in the assault phase. And because 5th edition is a far faster game - the famed "30 inch range advantage" is RARELY used. Heck - As a Tau player, I consider myself to be having a hell of a good game if I'm not losing multiple units to assaults on turn 2...

That's the problem in a nutshell. The core Tau design conceit of "focused firepower against the most dangerous threat" is truly falling apart under the "faster, shootier,assaultier" of the 5th edition codexes.

To be honest - Tau Firewarriors are some of the least effective models in the codex nowadays. Yes they have a good gun - but they rarely get to use it because every other 5th ed army (except the nids) has either a huge amount of firepower or assault power that will blot the *scoring* unit out in a heartbeat if they poke their head out of the APC they are hiding in.

Ehlijen - judging by your responses - I presume you are comparing the IG and the Tau. I'd respond by saying the following. The Tau basic transport weapons have 1/2 to 2/3rds the range of all other transports in the game - (and can only be expensively upgraded to equal to the lowest of the others) . The Tau DON'T have access a fast transport (nor it's tankhunter variant). The Tau have LESS access to large blast templates than any other army out there (and little access to flamer templates).

Sorry - your points held true for 4th edition, and even the earliest days of 5th. But EVERY 5th eidtion codex is moving faster and outshooting the Tau right now.

Really don't believe this is true-Tau can outshoot most armies when played right- the thing about Tau is that they have a decent amount of long range fire that they can keep firing at good range while moving circa. 12" a turn- its the combination of these things that make Tau effective- not just number of guns (IG), BS (Marines) etc.

Tau are the best army at delivering large amounts of mobile high strength firepower- but you have to make maximum use of all of these things to be effective (my tournament record below is evidence that I don't always get it right either). Tau win by getting those extra turns shooting through bubble wrapping and blocking (and the one that the diagrams don't mention- distance!).

As for their ballistic skill, seems about right to me- these guys aren't effective fluffwise because they are super soldiers- they are technologically advanced. Therefore, it would seem better to me to make them cheaper rather than increase their ballistic skill- you only tend to get BS 4 through intense psycho-conditioning, centuries of experience or being a veteran guardsman :shifty:

TheLaughingGod
28-03-2011, 18:55
Tau are supposed to be the MOBILE shooting army of 40k. They are not just about the guns. And their guns are bloody brilliant.


Says who? They're not even mounted in Fast Skimmers. They don't have fleet. They don't have jetbikes, or 12" moves on jump infantry.

The only people who think Tau are supposed to be mobile is the Tau players who want to steal the Eldar's schtick.

Vaktathi
28-03-2011, 19:14
Says who? They're not even mounted in Fast Skimmers. They don't have fleet. They don't have jetbikes, or 12" moves on jump infantry.

The only people who think Tau are supposed to be mobile is the Tau players who want to steal the Eldar's schtick.

:rolleyes: Yes, because stealing the Eldar's schtick is the goal.

Mobility isn't just about raw speed. Tau aren't the fastest race, but they aren't very static either. Their skimmers aren't Fast, but can fire as though they were. Their primary weapons platforms are Relentless or can become so, meaning they can constantly move and fire to full effect.

They aren't an army that's going to be zipping around the table and fighting in different quarters each turn, but they are one that will be constantly shifting, dancing around, forcing enemies to have to move just a little further than they thought they'd have to or wanted to, pulling them out of position and stringing them out.

Aluinn
28-03-2011, 19:17
I never said Tau should be "the best" at shooting.

I said, responding to previous posts, that if Tau should be good at shooting (i.e. if the design-goal is to improve their shooting), you should raise BS. If they should be "the best", than yes, their BS should be the highest.

If Tau should not be good, or "the best", don't change their BS. Simple and just as fine with me.

Wait: There is a difference between, on the one hand, the army being good at shooting in a gameplay sense, and, on the other, the Tau being skilled at shooting in a fluff sense. If emphasizing the latter is the goal, then, yes, the way to represent that would be to raise their BS. However, I see a lot of talk here about game balance--that the Tau army needs to be better at shooting to compete--which has no bearing on that. Making the army's shooting more effective could be done via any of the options I mentioned in my previous post, and more besides, and since fluff is out of the equation there, more or less, there is nothing really to choose between those options.

If we're talking about fluff, in truth, it's quite debatable what BS3 really represents. Certainly it is a range of ability that stretches from a Grot, to a new recruit in the Imperial Guard, to an Eldar Guardian who, though not a professional soldier, may have been an Aspect Warrior in the past, is really freaking old--thus probably has as much experience firing a gun as an IG veteran, even if they only mess around with a shuriken catapult at the firing range about once a month--and has crazy-heightened elf-senses. I think it is fair to put Fire Warriors somewhere within that. I also think it would be fair to give them BS4. Since both are justifiable, fluff-wise, we're back to game balance as the deciding factor, in which case, as previously mentioned, increased BS is just one option amongst many that would work equally well.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 20:01
(3)increase in dakka. here is where you go. heavy 2 rifles, assault 2 carbines, free drone controllers with gun drones for all maxed size squads. upgrade the gun drones to shield, rail rifle, or pulse submunition drones. and let drones controlled by a drone controller use the controllers BS, not their own (he is, you know, controlling them. stands to reason he aims them too).

In a fast, dynamic style/era of gameplay as this is, as you understand it to be, I cannot believe you and others are still lobbying for H2 on rifles. FW still need to be able to move! The fast things that got them before will still get them, even if they are sitting down firring twice as much as before!



your other points are great, I agree with much of what you have to say, as usuall.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 20:05
Well for ease of use they could simplify marker lights to the motion predictor idea I gave above - 'A unit with a marker light re-rolls 1s to hit' instead of using tokens and rolling to hit with the markerlight. Or simply say 'it costs 25pts to give a unit markerlights. Any shots at greater than 12" count as BS3' - to reflect long range accuracy rather than short range suppression.

Hellebore

Now you are thinking. I would take markerlights again if this was the case.

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 20:07
The fast things that got them before will still get them, even if they are sitting down firring twice as much as before!

But this time around less fast guys will make it through the barrage of fire ;)

How about pulse rifles being rapid fire weapons, like they are now, but if the firewarriors carrying them move they can still fire at long range ( basically a rapid fire without the movement penalty )? Too extreme?

I think something cool should be done with the fish of fury ( that's what it's called, right? Devilfish, guys out, rapid fire ) to make it a bit more viable. Such a playstyle encourages moving around, instead of static play. Or give the devilfish some firingpoints. It's not like it's a cheap transport anyway.

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 20:08
Tau have something.

Markerlights, and target locks on vehicles and suits.
Plus they can "split fire" with the right upgrades.

They're not "the" shooting army of 40k at all.
That's just a title people gave them when they saw that they weren't brilliant at combat.

Guard are a much more shooty army.
Sure, the basic guy doesn't have a 30" range st5 weapon..he also doesn't get a 4+ save.
What he does have is a lot of buddies and access to most weapons marines do in gretaer numbers than the marine player, plus a rediculous amount of supporting fire from tanks.
Guard get the battlecannon afterall.

The markerlight is apoorly designed POS. It is a way around things, it is not The Answear by any means.

xerxeshavelock
28-03-2011, 20:08
Really don't believe this is true-Tau can outshoot most armies when played right

However outshooting locally isn't enough any more. Back when my Tau were performing (before your tournament dominance) they did, but I know I could have more success playing with the Guard codex as the Tau using the principles of local fire superiority, and suspect I would be able to give them a run for their money with both the Chaos and Imperial marine books. I suspect any top-tier Tau player could too.

Starchild
28-03-2011, 20:15
You've had a squad of marines disappear under FW pulse rifle fire, really? You must have been the victim of horrible luck then, because the mathhammer just isn't with you. Say those 12 FWs had markerlight support, so they were shooting at BS5:

24 shots * BS5 * S5vT4 * Sv3+ = 4.44 MeQ kills

The remaining marines, even if there were only 2, could then charge the FWs the next turn and slaughter them.The Mathhammer is strong with this one. :p



I've been playing them since day 1, and I have always felt they should be BS4, to the man. In all seriousnes I never felt the markerlight worked well, and I would love to see it just be cut out of the book in trade for BS4 all around. Kroot should keep thier BS3, IMHO. Then you have a real choice to make between the two types.I could go for that, if they don't plan to make markerlights more ubiquitous. +1 BS is the default for one markerlight hit anyway. BS4 could easily be the "counts as" for what should be standard gear on most Tau units.

It's not like little markerlight attachments should be difficult for the Tau to produce, but the way they're treated in the army list, one would assume they're as rare as Jokaero digital weapons. :eyebrows:

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2011, 20:17
The markerlight is apoorly designed POS. It is a way around things, it is not The Answear by any means.

What is POS?

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 20:18
But this time around less fast guys will make it through the barrage of fire ;)

How about pulse rifles being rapid fire weapons, like they are now, but if the firewarriors carrying them move they can still fire at long range ( basically a rapid fire without the movement penalty )? Too extreme?

I think something cool should be done with the fish of fury ( that's what it's called, right? Devilfish, guys out, rapid fire ) to make it a bit more viable. Such a playstyle encourages moving around, instead of static play. Or give the devilfish some firingpoints. It's not like it's a cheap transport anyway.

Not too extreme. I always thought giving them SnP or relentless would work well. Being able to move and shoot that gun would be nicer (and more fitting to the rest of their playstyle) than sitting down with it and shooting twice. Keep it rapid so it shoots 2x at 12'' then make the carbine assault 2.

Encourage moving around and taking other options.

Starchild
28-03-2011, 20:20
What is POS?Point of Sale, i.e. selling point? That's the best I can come up with... :eyebrows:

It will be tricky for GW to make markerlights fun to use without overcomplicating the rules for them (as they are now, no wonder on one uses them... too expensive, not widely available, and a book keeping hassle during the game.)

Vaktathi
28-03-2011, 20:21
What is POS?Piece of ****

:p

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 20:21
What is POS?

Its me being polite on the forum. "Piece of s--t"


Its funny that we use so many abreviations that we forget comon coloquialisms! I can barely keep up with the abriviations and I was here for years while this place was still called portent!

owen matthew
28-03-2011, 20:24
It's not like little markerlight attachments should be difficult for the Tau to produce, but the way they're treated in the army list, one would assume they're as rare as Jokaero digital weapons. :eyebrows:

Yep, and with a 50% success rate, taking the user away from using his weapon, a real bargain! I am very for droping the clumsy system and moving the army to BS4, and dumping the other benes nobody uses anyway, as a small ballance.

Castigator
28-03-2011, 20:39
Wait: There is a difference between, on the one hand, the army being good at shooting in a gameplay sense, and, on the other, the Tau being skilled at shooting in a fluff sense. If emphasizing the latter is the goal, then, yes, the way to represent that would be to raise their BS. However, I see a lot of talk here about game balance--that the Tau army needs to be better at shooting to compete--which has no bearing on that. Making the army's shooting more effective could be done via any of the options I mentioned in my previous post, and more besides, and since fluff is out of the equation there, more or less, there is nothing really to choose between those options.

If we're talking about fluff, in truth, it's quite debatable what BS3 really represents. Certainly it is a range of ability that stretches from a Grot, to a new recruit in the Imperial Guard, to an Eldar Guardian who, though not a professional soldier, may have been an Aspect Warrior in the past, is really freaking old--thus probably has as much experience firing a gun as an IG veteran, even if they only mess around with a shuriken catapult at the firing range about once a month--and has crazy-heightened elf-senses. I think it is fair to put Fire Warriors somewhere within that. I also think it would be fair to give them BS4. Since both are justifiable, fluff-wise, we're back to game balance as the deciding factor, in which case, as previously mentioned, increased BS is just one option amongst many that would work equally well.

If Tau are supposed to be an army good at shooting, than you'll need units that shoot well. If the fluff for some reason contradicts or inhibits the design of a shooty army using simple and viable rules and mechanics, than the fluff has to go the way of the Dodo.

theunwantedbeing
28-03-2011, 20:43
The markerlight is apoorly designed POS. It is a way around things, it is not The Answear by any means.


Its me being polite on the forum. "Piece of s--t"

Ah, okay, it all makes sense now.
The current Markerlight isn't exactly difficult to understand though.

Sure beats having another army with bs4 all round.

samiens
28-03-2011, 20:46
However outshooting locally isn't enough any more. Back when my Tau were performing (before your tournament dominance) they did, but I know I could have more success playing with the Guard codex as the Tau using the principles of local fire superiority, and suspect I would be able to give them a run for their money with both the Chaos and Imperial marine books. I suspect any top-tier Tau player could too.

But the point is that Tau are very capable of deciding where local is, and redeploying while firing at full effect, something even Guard can't do.

Agree that guard are a better army, and the newer marine armies are more points efficient, but I actually think Tau are stronger than csm (another of my armies) and they are better at adapting to new armies. As a case in point my csm are terrified of the new grey knights, irs much of a muchness to my Tau

SgtTaters
28-03-2011, 20:47
Fire Warriors just need to be reduced to 7pts. Cheaper fire warriors also means more points left over to spend on cool toys, the Dark Elf approach of army design.
Their stats as they are are perfect for representing very well armed, well trained alien soldiers.

Tau are a race that relies on technology to make up for the centuries of skill and bizarre technology of their enemies.

xerxeshavelock
28-03-2011, 21:03
But the point is that Tau are very capable of deciding where local is, and redeploying while firing at full effect, something even Guard can't do.

Agree that guard are a better army, and the newer marine armies are more points efficient, but I actually think Tau are stronger than csm (another of my armies) and they are better at adapting to new armies. As a case in point my csm are terrified of the new grey knights, irs much of a muchness to my Tau

With more cheaper AP 2 spam, Valkyries, Outflanking units, bonuses to reserves and more access to templates a Guard forcecan place its fire at least as well as the Tau. The only thing the Tau do better is deep strike, and that is getting riskier. Its become true that the Tau perform better in smaller games due to manoeverability, but at 1500+ I don't think that is the case and I think the forces I mentioned are just as effective at applying firepower where needed. They might do it through resiliance or redundancy instead of cool tech, but the result is potentially better. And I'm not talking about the power builds - I mean everything that makes the Tau such a joy to play can be done better by others.

2 other things - I've not seen much about how much stronger Suits would be if they could move after Dsing - but it would really make a difference. And I quite agree with you about the GKs - the exception being the dude that won't die - he sounds nasty!

Deadnight
28-03-2011, 21:16
In a fast, dynamic style/era of gameplay as this is, as you understand it to be, I cannot believe you and others are still lobbying for H2 on rifles. FW still need to be able to move! The fast things that got them before will still get them, even if they are sitting down firring twice as much as before!

your other points are great, I agree with much of what you have to say, as usuall.

FWs can move. take the a2 carbines. sheesh... :) im liking the h2 rifles when combined with drones mounting rail rifles and pulse submunition rifles. one hell of a decent firebase. :)


But the point is that Tau are very capable of deciding where local is, and redeploying while firing at full effect, something even Guard can't do.

honestly, they're no more capable than anybody else. tau dont move that fast, and more things in the game now move faster, shoot more shots from bigger guns and assault harder. on a 6' by 4' there is only so far you can move, and tau are very easily outmanoevred these days,

Charistoph
28-03-2011, 21:17
In a fast, dynamic style/era of gameplay as this is, as you understand it to be, I cannot believe you and others are still lobbying for H2 on rifles. FW still need to be able to move! The fast things that got them before will still get them, even if they are sitting down firring twice as much as before!



your other points are great, I agree with much of what you have to say, as usuall.

Heavy 2 Rifles (and freely mixed A2 Carbines) makes more sense and involves less general "rule-breaking" than the the best balanced alternative spoken of by TBO below. It also provides the Fire Warrior team with the one thing they are lacking as a non-Elite non-Horde Troop unit: long ranged volume of fire, and it's provided in a unique way. Even better news for GW, people will actually buy more kits to add Carbine Warriors to their Cadre.


But this time around less fast guys will make it through the barrage of fire ;)

How about pulse rifles being rapid fire weapons, like they are now, but if the firewarriors carrying them move they can still fire at long range ( basically a rapid fire without the movement penalty )? Too extreme?

I think something cool should be done with the fish of fury ( that's what it's called, right? Devilfish, guys out, rapid fire ) to make it a bit more viable. Such a playstyle encourages moving around, instead of static play. Or give the devilfish some firingpoints. It's not like it's a cheap transport anyway.

Worsle
28-03-2011, 21:28
as they are now, no wonder on one uses them... too expensive, not widely available, and a book keeping hassle during the game.

Yes in a game where cover saves are so common and important why would anyone ever want to use something that can reduce them? No lets just use 4th edition tactics or ninja tau are that name sounds cool no matter how ineffective it is.

alphastealer
28-03-2011, 21:47
I agree on both counts that Tau should not be base BS4 but should still become more shooty.

I would like to see a stand and shoot option when enemies charge. The tau could get an extra round of shooting in exchange for cc attacks. The race knows they suck in cc so why not go down pulling the trigger of a S5 rifle a few more times that trying to take down a demon prince in cc with a sushi knife.

Kroot need assault 2 guns and the krootox not removing infiltrate. also the 6+ save should be standard. A shaper shpuld allow markerlight support in the same way as a vespid strain leader.

A general points reduction of 15% on all suits, fire warriors, vehicles and pathfinders.

Stealth suits gain stealth ability...duh.

All suits switch their current S and T stats.

Skyray can fire D6 seekers per turn per networked markerlight.

Railgun solid shot gets a penetration rule to affect all models in a straight line. Think Jaws but wuth less cheese.

Off table fire support for markerlights...I am seeing visions of the soldiers in the first transformers film marking a scorpion for all the planes to bomb and shoot at.

Fletchette dischargers infiltrate and stealth for pathfinders. Lose the mandatory fish.

Carlosophy
28-03-2011, 22:45
OK, I have a single question to all respondents in this thread.

1) How many have played with/against the Tau multiple times under 5th edition rules against 5th edition designed codexes?

EVERYTHING 5th edition (with the sole exception of the tyranids - and even they can put out a scary amount of firepower) can easily outshoot them in the shooting phase and WAY outfight them in the assault phase. And because 5th edition is a far faster game - the famed "30 inch range advantage" is RARELY used. Heck - As a Tau player, I consider myself to be having a hell of a good game if I'm not losing multiple units to assaults on turn 2...

That's the problem in a nutshell. The core Tau design conceit of "focused firepower against the most dangerous threat" is truly falling apart under the "faster, shootier,assaultier" of the 5th edition codexes.

To be honest - Tau Firewarriors are some of the least effective models in the codex nowadays. Yes they have a good gun - but they rarely get to use it because every other 5th ed army (except the nids) has either a huge amount of firepower or assault power that will blot the *scoring* unit out in a heartbeat if they poke their head out of the APC they are hiding in.

Ehlijen - judging by your responses - I presume you are comparing the IG and the Tau. I'd respond by saying the following. The Tau basic transport weapons have 1/2 to 2/3rds the range of all other transports in the game - (and can only be expensively upgraded to equal to the lowest of the others) . The Tau DON'T have access a fast transport (nor it's tankhunter variant). The Tau have LESS access to large blast templates than any other army out there (and little access to flamer templates).

Sorry - your points held true for 4th edition, and even the earliest days of 5th. But EVERY 5th eidtion codex is moving faster and outshooting the Tau right now.

Depends where you play. My Tau regularly face 5th Ed Guard and Chaos, both of which footslog in smaller games or only have 1-2 mech units. And in both cases I find Fire Warriors highly effective at short and long ranges.

I fight as I once did with my Eldar, systematically cutting off units and exterminating them. Against Chaos this is very easy as Piranhas can make them divide and then its a case of using a combo of FW, PF and Fireknives to wipe them out.

Guard are a trickier foe due to the abundance of large blasts. A Manticore can make life very difficult for Tau players, AP4ing your FW and IDing suits, unless you play unconventionally
Flanking stealths on a suicide mission to blow it up and plenty of flanking kroot to keep the boys at bay whilst the rest of the army eliminates choice targets seems to work best.
My sister used a Manticore with Alpha Strike Hellhounds once and tabled me pretty quick.

Xabraxis
28-03-2011, 22:45
Heavy 2 is a horrible idea for rifles. It especially goes against the Tau Mantra of "When the enemy get within your reach, Shorten your reach".

Now if pulse rifles were heavy 2 / rapidfire(multi-type weapons are in. See Psycannon) than that would be an improvement. The carbine would still be useful at the 18 inch range, but you could bump it up.

Speaking of, the Carbine has an attached grenade launcher. Its never used. Lets put it to use:perhaps a 12" attack where if it hits, the unit has to take a leadership(modifiable by markerlights) or fall back 2d6. Fearless could be immune to this.

Anyways as far as a BS4 argument goes: having been the victim of a purposefully downgraded codex(C:CSM) I know the necessities of building a codex with balance in mind. However, with this upswing of INSANITY from GW, there is NO POINT in pulling punches as far as stats go. I like BS:4 and switching the strength and toughness stats on suits. Gogo survivability.

The bearded one
28-03-2011, 22:46
All suits switch their current S and T stats

I'd love this change, but it'd be pretty extreme. No more instant death from melta's and lasscannons or powerfists and more survivable when jumping about against small arms fire. I'd love it, but I don't see it happening.

Deadnight
28-03-2011, 23:05
Heavy 2 is a horrible idea for rifles. It especially goes against the Tau Mantra of "When the enemy get within your reach, Shorten your reach".


just on a quick point of order, that quote belongs to the renegade, pariah, and all in all deviant known as Farsight. most tau fight at extreme to long range and laugh at that philosophy :) "let them get closer?? what happens to us shooting them? we're tau! hehe thats funny shas'la, you're a laugh riot!"

Xabraxis
28-03-2011, 23:27
just on a quick point of order, that quote belongs to the renegade, pariah, and all in all deviant known as Farsight. most tau fight at extreme to long range and laugh at that philosophy :) "let them get closer?? what happens to us shooting them? we're tau! hehe thats funny shas'la, you're a laugh riot!"

The general idea being that if they get within your range and you have to move to avoid being punched in the kidnies, you stop being able to shoot.

Heavy 2 doesn't work in the Metagame of turn 2 assaults.

The bearded one
29-03-2011, 01:23
Assault 2, 30" str 5 pulse rifles!

No, what are you talking about? That's not overpowered at all :p

Xabraxis
29-03-2011, 01:25
Assault 2, 30" str 5 pulse rifles!

No, what are you talking about? That's not overpowered at all :p

You're on to something.

Pulse rifles assault 2
Carbines assault 3

The bearded one
29-03-2011, 01:33
Don't tell me you're serious :) I wouldn't mind that, but isn't it a bit too much when combined with str5 and markerlights? If they did something like that I won't mind, seeing as I've got 20 firewarriors in 1000 points and 32 in 1700 :D

I want all my firewarriors to be carrying that 12 shot gatling gun the dreadknights can carry. But with str5 :)

Xabraxis
29-03-2011, 01:34
Don't tell me you're serious :) I wouldn't mind that, but isn't it a bit too much when combined with str5 and markerlights?

I want all my firewarriors to be carrying that 12 shot gatling gun the dreadknights can carry. But with str5 :)

Sure, as long as its labeled as Rare, irreplaceable, and only 1 point. Or free.

Knights_Templar
29-03-2011, 01:39
Perhaps the Pulse rifle (and to some degree the carbine) could increase the amount of shots you put out as the distance decreases, say 1 at 30", 2 at 15-20" and 3 for <15"?
That would actually make opponents think twice before closing the distance so quickly.

Wolf Lord Balrog
29-03-2011, 02:26
the ways to fix them are
(1) bs4. again, there is an argument to be made both ways. i think enough of the game has changed that *bs4* is no longer a no go area...
(2) cheaper. im against this. tau are a more *elite* army than *horde* spammed crappy infantry is not the answer. Fair enough, they're cheaper, so i can take more of them? No, because they still suck. why would i take *more* of a bad thing? i'll do what i do now, buy the minimum six, and spend my points on stuff that is actually useful.
(3)increase in dakka. here is where you go. heavy 2 rifles, assault 2 carbines, free drone controllers with gun drones for all maxed size squads. upgrade the gun drones to shield, rail rifle, or pulse submunition drones. and let drones controlled by a drone controller use the controllers BS, not their own (he is, you know, controlling them. stands to reason he aims them too).

I think Deadnight summed up the available solutions nicely here.

Solution 1 seems too hard to swallow for many people. Though there is the compromise position of BS3 with 'Sharpshooters', rather than BS4.

Solution 2 can only go so far before you make FWs into poor horde troops. You could only drop their price 2 points per model at most.

Solution 3 is the most attractive to many Tau players, as they relish the idea that their troops could retake the title of 'Shootiest'. :) However, again this can only go so far before it gets unbalanced too. I think Assault 2 carbines is a good idea, but I don't know about anything better than Rapid Fire for rifles.

So because no one of these solutions can work by itself, the obvious answer is more than one of them. I think a bit of any two together would be sufficient. :)

ehlijen
29-03-2011, 02:29
OK, I have a single question to all respondents in this thread.

1) How many have played with/against the Tau multiple times under 5th edition rules against 5th edition designed codexes?

EVERYTHING 5th edition (with the sole exception of the tyranids - and even they can put out a scary amount of firepower) can easily outshoot them in the shooting phase and WAY outfight them in the assault phase. And because 5th edition is a far faster game - the famed "30 inch range advantage" is RARELY used. Heck - As a Tau player, I consider myself to be having a hell of a good game if I'm not losing multiple units to assaults on turn 2...

That's the problem in a nutshell. The core Tau design conceit of "focused firepower against the most dangerous threat" is truly falling apart under the "faster, shootier,assaultier" of the 5th edition codexes.

To be honest - Tau Firewarriors are some of the least effective models in the codex nowadays. Yes they have a good gun - but they rarely get to use it because every other 5th ed army (except the nids) has either a huge amount of firepower or assault power that will blot the *scoring* unit out in a heartbeat if they poke their head out of the APC they are hiding in.

Ehlijen - judging by your responses - I presume you are comparing the IG and the Tau. I'd respond by saying the following. The Tau basic transport weapons have 1/2 to 2/3rds the range of all other transports in the game - (and can only be expensively upgraded to equal to the lowest of the others) . The Tau DON'T have access a fast transport (nor it's tankhunter variant). The Tau have LESS access to large blast templates than any other army out there (and little access to flamer templates).

Sorry - your points held true for 4th edition, and even the earliest days of 5th. But EVERY 5th eidtion codex is moving faster and outshooting the Tau right now.

I have played my Tau army a fair lot in 5th ed, thank you vey much.

The basic idea of how the Tau work is unchanged. Yes everyone else is faster than they used to be (since running has now been introduced) and the nonsense that is outflanking hurts the Tau much like it hurts most other armies. But the Tau have made the same gains. They can run as well now and They have access to outflank as well.

The true change is that scoring unit status is more selectively applied and that victory points are gone. No longer can Tau plink away stuff and run their suits up to contest objectives in the end. The firewarriors actually have to move aggressively now, unless you have enough Kroot for the job.
The Tau actually have think about when to shoot and when to move now, which in 4th they rarely had to do.
Yes, their codex needs points adjustments for all the support units seeing as their value went down/they no longer hold up well compared to other support units. But the Tau core units are still doing fine (Kroot and Firewarriors).

As for transport range: I don't recall rhinos having a 36" range? Nor Crusaders and Redeemers. Nor the rocket pods on Valkyries. Most transports that do have more range will be driving up quickly anyway. It's really only chimeras that both have more range and use it often. And they're not as resilient (less side armour, no decoys no D-pods) nor can they shoot indirectly or when moving fast (both options for the fish).
And if you're not calling the Tau tanks fast, you're forgetting the multitracker, which gives them 90% of what being fast does (coincedentally, it's the 90% the Tau actually care about: shooting stuff).

Yes, the Tau have less template/blast access than other races (beating only necrons at it). That's because they're an army that likes precision. Their direct fire guns are very good in comparison.

night2501
29-03-2011, 02:39
just a quick note:

The idea of the H2 rifles and A2 carabines is not new, and ussually when people talk about H2 rifles, they refear to the FW actually armed with the rifle plus a pulse pistol for the short range/mobile firefights.

end of note


now I agree the best solution would be more daka, basic gear,grenades, upgrades included in the price (as is the trend with the current edition) and a slight point reduction on FW, I m ok with BS3 on FW but they do need more daka and improved rules for markerlights, since now as the game is faster you basically have les stime to shoot...
The same affect the vespid, was too much to give A2 to that gun...

please remember FW on vehicles do not shoot, FW running do not shoot, anithign that impides FW to shoot basically neutralize them, and the only way the can hold a objectiv eis killing their targe tbefore they reach them, so they do NEED the firepower, unlike marines that can thin you out and then assault...

keroro623
29-03-2011, 02:41
I am all for BS3 firewarriors, I just think it is messed up are veterans(battle and stealth suits) are also bs3. It would be cool if some things could be reduced point cost(I'm looking at you devil fish :mad: ) but for the most part the current cost is alright if we could give minor upgades or diversity to our wargeer. Personally I would like to see seeker missiles take up a more diverse role and be used as the squads "heavy weapon". Maybe a krak or frag option.

Xabraxis
29-03-2011, 02:42
I think Deadnight summed up the available solutions nicely here.

Solution 1 seems too hard to swallow for many people. Though there is the compromise position of BS3 with 'Sharpshooters', rather than BS4.

Solution 2 can only go so far before you make FWs into poor horde troops. You could only drop their price 2 points per model at most.

Solution 3 is the most attractive to many Tau players, as they relish the idea that their troops could retake the title of 'Shootiest'. :) However, again this can only go so far before it gets unbalanced too. I think Assault 2 carbines is a good idea, but I don't know about anything better than Rapid Fire for rifles.

So because no one of these solutions can work by itself, the obvious answer is more than one of them. I think a bit of any two together would be sufficient. :)


#2 might be better approached by giving them MORE for their price line , rather than just reducing the price.

Retribution
29-03-2011, 03:24
BS3 represents the accuracy of a highly trained warrior. BS4 is almost god-like shooting ability only achievable by nigh immortal beings such as Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons etc.

Oh, those nigh-unstoppable, god-like...human veterans

jdunn
29-03-2011, 03:29
The fluff reason forbeing BS 3 is because without all the high tech equipment, since tau eyes are not very powerful, they would be something like BS 1 or 2.

Tarian
29-03-2011, 03:32
Oh, those nigh-unstoppable, god-like...human veterans

Tell that to the smoking vehicles left behind their Chimera. Besides, with the Grenadier doctrine, they can hold up in combat... against Firewarriors. :D

Corporeal
29-03-2011, 03:37
well, let's see.

average, straight-down-the-middle firing skill, average rounds-per-minute and heavy reliance on markerlights just to make maximum use of said round per minute, makes for very average shooting. and this is with an army that relies more on medium range than long range. This makes for a very average army with good guns that has to rely on hiding behind cover, behind a bubble wrap or running away straight over the cliff of death.

It comes off of as taking a few 30.06 and 7.62mm long range rifles to a fight a foe that mostly consists of squad auto weapons, auto shotguns and are running right towards you. oh, and you get to call in the occasional missile that was somehow shipped out with no explosive warhead.

Bubble Ghost
29-03-2011, 03:46
Admittedly speaking as a non-Tau player (but for whom Tau are on my shortlist of 2 for "if I ever get around to another army"), I'd like to see something different. Giving Fire Warriors a special weapon would be a shame - it would encourage you to see the squad as the weapon plus meat shields, and a"meat shield" attitude doesn't suit the Tau. I like that they have a base BS of 3 too, it makes them more sympathetic, and allows their schtick of high technology to be what does the damage, which is positive for their imagery as a whole - it makes them more human, if you like, which is a strange thing to say about an alien race but you know what I mean.

So I'd like to see something unique. Something like saying that the combination of photon grenades and a powerful rifle means charging Fire Warriors counts as going through dangerous terrain. Something to give Fire Warriors some teeth, some presence, but without necessarily stripping them of what makes them... them. Without forcing them to join the crowd.

As for the army as a whole, points values and weapon stats are plenty to make an army shooty.

Retribution
29-03-2011, 03:52
At least make Crisis teams BS4 by default, since BS3 elite / veterans...don't seem so elite

Creeping Dementia
29-03-2011, 03:56
As has already been mentioned, the BS of the firewarriors is fine. Maybe the BS of the suits could be upgraded. The thing that is messed up is Markerlights, the concept is great, but they just aren't useable. If the Tau were able to actually get and use a much larger number of markerlights then things would be great and the problem of low BS and high impact of 5th Ed cover on the army would be solved.

Pathfinders are the cheapest and most numerous way to get lights, but theyre ultra squishy and any opponent that isn't a ***** wipes them out on turn 1.

Other methods of getting lights are WAY too expensive, via Skyrays or Drones, and can't be used due to the cost.


IMO the problem has nothing to do with base Tau BS or weaponry, it's due to miscalculated army mechanics as a whole.

Corporeal
29-03-2011, 04:29
At least make Crisis teams BS4 by default, since BS3 elite / veterans...don't seem so elite

yeah no kidding. it's like they're saying: "well, i'm good enough at shooting. i think I'll go pilot a suit and train in close combat. Now where's my missile pod?"

Spell_of_Destruction
29-03-2011, 04:32
Another thought is that 4+ saves are seriously overcosted in 5th ed due to the prevalence of 4+ cover saves. In a coverless environment a 4+ save is very good on basic troops. On the average 40k battlefield it's redundant.

3+ saves are still very useful against small arms fire. Units with 5+ saves and 6+ saves got a massive resilience boost with the 5th ed cover rules. What did units with 4+ saves get?

This is a major balance issue for 4+ save units costed for 4th ed. Their opponents got tougher and they got nothing in return.

It's perhaps just a cost issue but I also fully expect the cover rules to be revisited and toned down when 6th ed is released.

Retribution
29-03-2011, 04:39
yeah no kidding. it's like they're saying: "well, i'm good enough at shooting. i think I'll go pilot a suit and train in close combat. Now where's my missile pod?"

I seriously want to know who thought it made sense to give Tau veterans a higher WS (bringing them all the way up to...still crap) without touching their BS :\

Vaktathi
29-03-2011, 04:52
Another thought is that 4+ saves are seriously overcosted in 5th ed due to the prevalence of 4+ cover saves. In a coverless environment a 4+ save is very good on basic troops. On the average 40k battlefield it's redundant..4+ armor saves have always been overcosted. There's the cover issue of course, but while they give infantry a save against basic small arms, most 4+sv units are also T3, and as such will still take crippling casualties from a full rapid fire barrage such that they are likely to break or no longer be combat effective, and anything heavier than that (which is what inflicts the majority of casualties on such troops I find) ignores the 4+ completely (e.g. heavy flamers, heavy bolters, autocannons, assault cannons, etc)

Very few 4+sv infantry have ever been considered to be somewhat competitive. Fire Warriors never were never truly great infantry, IG carapace equipped troops (no matter what they are or what edition) have always been horrifically overcosted, likewise with INQ Stormtroopers (the only way people thought of them was good was as minimum sized melta units) and of course now with the GK book carapace upgrades double the basic unit cost making it pointless, and SM scouts are rarely looked well upon and generally spend the entire game in 3+ cover. Only Eldar 4+sv infantry are generally seen as halfway decent, and not as much as they used to be.

This is not unique to Tau unfortunately, GW just doesn't seem to realize that 4+sv's are not worth what they think they are worth and never have been.





IMO the problem has nothing to do with base Tau BS or weaponry, it's due to miscalculated army mechanics as a whole.

Well, not miscalculated really. They built the army very close to many mechanics of 3E and 4E that were radically changed (for some good reasons) with 5E. Don't forget in 4E the Tau were considered to be a very powerful and capable army.

Charistoph
29-03-2011, 04:55
Speaking of, the Carbine has an attached grenade launcher. Its never used. Lets put it to use:perhaps a 12" attack where if it hits, the unit has to take a leadership(modifiable by markerlights) or fall back 2d6. Fearless could be immune to this.

Actually, the grenade launcher is used. That's what provides the Pinning to the weapon. It's definitely not the rate of fire. Remember, most grenades in this game do not actually kill people.


Assault 2, 30" str 5 pulse rifles!

No, what are you talking about? That's not overpowered at all :p

And that's why the H2 Rifle concept was finally resolved as:



The idea of the H2 rifles and A2 carabines is not new, and ussually when people talk about H2 rifles, they refear to the FW actually armed with the rifle plus a pulse pistol for the short range/mobile firefights.

For all intents and purposes, it makes the Rifle Fire Warrior have a "Reverse Rapid-Fire" weapon in gameplay, without fancy rules or sly fancy winking at the rulebook as you fly by. It's simple, elegant, and fulfills the role nicely.


Perhaps the Pulse rifle (and to some degree the carbine) could increase the amount of shots you put out as the distance decreases, say 1 at 30", 2 at 15-20" and 3 for <15"?
That would actually make opponents think twice before closing the distance so quickly.

Interesting concept, but the minimizing of Special Rules is desired by the community. Which means that this option will probably be what Ward or Cruddace gives them...

ehlijen
29-03-2011, 04:59
I seriously want to know who thought it made sense to give Tau veterans a higher WS (bringing them all the way up to...still crap) without touching their BS :\

The Tau actually do train in close combat (they actually have bonding knifes that are actual weapons after all). It's just that in the Tau military close combat is an extracuricular activity for their equivalent of fraternities and is not actually covered in depth by the training.

As Tau become more experienced on the battlefield, they'd naturally learn more about combat, simply because never fighting in it is almost impossible for a veteran.

Tau veterans are still at less WS than comparable ranks in other militaries, but that does not mean the Tau don't train in it at all. It makes for more sense that the skill difference is constant through the ranks than it is for no tau to ever learn how to club things with his rifle.


And to the 4+ save: A 4+ save is great because it allows the unit to not have to rely on cover for protection (which really helps when going for some objectives), doubles survival rates against flamers and helps survive combat.

4+ saves have actually become more expensive in 5th ed codices (last IG codex was 20 points per 10 men, now it's 30).

Xabraxis
29-03-2011, 05:05
The Tau actually do train in close combat (they actually have bonding knifes that are actual weapons after all). It's just that in the Tau military close combat is an extracuricular activity for their equivalent of fraternities and is not actually covered in depth by the training.

As Tau become more experienced on the battlefield, they'd naturally learn more about combat, simply because never fighting in it is almost impossible for a veteran.

Tau veterans are still at less WS than comparable ranks in other militaries, but that does not mean the Tau don't train in it at all. It makes for more sense that the skill difference is constant through the ranks than it is for no tau to ever learn how to club things with his rifle.


And to the 4+ save: A 4+ save is great because it allows the unit to not have to rely on cover for protection (which really helps when going for some objectives), doubles survival rates against flamers and helps survive combat.

4+ saves have actually become more expensive in 5th ed codices (last IG codex was 20 points per 10 men, now it's 30).

In case you haven't noticed, Tau become veterans by NOT engaging in melee.

Charistoph
29-03-2011, 05:13
The Tau actually do train in close combat (they actually have bonding knifes that are actual weapons after all). It's just that in the Tau military close combat is an extracuricular activity for their equivalent of fraternities and is not actually covered in depth by the training.

You mean those ceremonial knives never meant for combat? THOSE Bonding Knives? A Shas using a Bonding Knife for anything other than ritual is considered a miserable failure (outside the O'Shova Enclaves).


As Tau become more experienced on the battlefield, they'd naturally learn more about combat, simply because never fighting in it is almost impossible for a veteran.

Tau veterans are still at less WS than comparable ranks in other militaries, but that does not mean the Tau don't train in it at all. It makes for more sense that the skill difference is constant through the ranks than it is for no tau to ever learn how to club things with his rifle.

This is more accurate. But again, when a Shas is not using his gun, it's considered a failure on someone's part. It's part of their thing. The problem is we can't do that on the gamefield. The scenarios currently don't cover the rules for this type of strategy, yet.

Creeping Dementia
29-03-2011, 05:30
Well, not miscalculated really. They built the army very close to many mechanics of 3E and 4E that were radically changed (for some good reasons) with 5E. Don't forget in 4E the Tau were considered to be a very powerful and capable army.

I started Tau back in 4th, and even back then markerlights weren't used all that often. Markerdrones and Skyrays have never been good for the points. Cover, skimmer/defensive weapon changes and TLOS are what hit the Tau bad. Their firepower/BS skill doesn't directly have much to do with where they are now. But it is related to why they now need an update.

ehlijen
29-03-2011, 05:35
Going into war assuming things will go your way is how people die. Sure, the Tau may not want to engage in melees, but not preparing at least a little for it and just saying 'well if you have to do this, your commander failed, so just accept your death already' is just asking for everyone to die the moment your commander isn't perfect (which will happen sooner or later).

I never said they applaud the club swinging Tau. But they will surely listen to his guidance more than to that of the Tau who died because he thought swinging the club to save his life was too uncivilised.

There are still some western militaries that have sabers as part of their dress uniform, despite those people never being meant to carry them on the field of battle. That doesn't mean they can't take up fencing as a hobby and learn about close combat that way.

The Tau don't like close combat, but they don't live in denial about it's existance or importance.

Sekhmet
29-03-2011, 05:49
In case you haven't noticed, Tau become veterans by NOT engaging in melee.
I lol'd irl.

Bloody Nunchucks
29-03-2011, 06:03
i think tau need a BS4, as of now most peopl dont use fire warriors for anything other than making devilfish scoring units. maybe if they had BS4 the tau army would be more like it was designed(less like eldar)

owen matthew
29-03-2011, 06:46
Ah, okay, it all makes sense now.
The current Markerlight isn't exactly difficult to understand though.

Oh, you are right, it is very easy to understand, I don't think anyone ever made a complaint to the contrary.



Sure beats having another army with bs4 all round.


This I respectfully dissagree with, with all my heart and soul and every fiber of being.

owen matthew
29-03-2011, 06:51
Heavy 2 Rifles (and freely mixed A2 Carbines) makes more sense and involves less general "rule-breaking" than the the best balanced alternative spoken of by TBO below. It also provides the Fire Warrior team with the one thing they are lacking as a non-Elite non-Horde Troop unit: long ranged volume of fire, and it's provided in a unique way. Even better news for GW, people will actually buy more kits to add Carbine Warriors to their Cadre.

On the wish listing forum i gave tons of counter points and my own proposed solutions. I seriously do not want to devolve into all of that again here. On this we will have to just agree to dissagree, and wait to see what GW does along these lines, if anything.

Carlosophy
29-03-2011, 07:47
i think tau need a BS4, as of now most peopl dont use fire warriors for anything other than making devilfish scoring units. maybe if they had BS4 the tau army would be more like it was designed(less like eldar)

Assault 1 Rifles
Assault 2 Carbines
Passive +1BS from Markerlights is they remain stationary

Problems solved.

Aluinn
29-03-2011, 11:18
If Tau are supposed to be an army good at shooting, than you'll need units that shoot well. If the fluff for some reason contradicts or inhibits the design of a shooty army using simple and viable rules and mechanics, than the fluff has to go the way of the Dodo.

Again, as other posters have said many times, BS4 isn't needed to make an army good at shooting, mechanically. If Fire Warriors had BS1 and S10, AP1 rifles, they'd be very good at shooting. The only sense in which they would not be good at it would be in a fluff sense, since BS1 suggests that they are "poor shots", but again, that only matters insofar as it pertains to fluff.

"Shooting well" means inflicting an amount of damage with shooting which is higher than most other (non-shooting-focused) armies could do if spending the same amount of points and using them to shoot with. No more, no less. It does not mean "hitting more often".

As far as the problem of giving them BS4, it's been gone over ad nauseam already, but I agree with other posters who have stated that BS4 is becoming too common. It isn't meant to be the baseline BS, and yet not only Marines of all types get it, but also: Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard (Veterans as Troops, though it doesn't apply to vehicles, but this still gives them about as much BS4 as Eldar, and sometimes more), Necrons, Dark Eldar, and some CW Eldar.

This may leave Tau feeling "left behind" by stat inflation, but IMO it would be better to argue that, for example SoB and Guard need to go back to being BS3 armies, rather than Tau becoming a BS4 army.

Hellebore
29-03-2011, 11:24
Until GW change there shooting rules so that they aren't reliant on 2 values to represent the majority of 40k shooting skill (3 and 4), this is the way it will stay. It's even more apparent in vehicles where BS4 and 3 are more common than in infantry. There are only the Venerable dreadnoughts at BS5 and the ork vehicles at BS2. Other than that, every vehicle is stuck with 3 or 4.

Hellebore

SgtTaters
29-03-2011, 11:57
Orks are very shooty and they have bs2

you don't need high bs to be shooty, you just need to be points thrifty.
When they revamped orks, they didn't make them ws5, they just made them cheaper.

Bubble Ghost
29-03-2011, 12:37
They did put their WS up from 3 to 4 in 3rd edition though.:angel:

The bearded one
29-03-2011, 14:46
I lol'd irl.

Me too :D

Why does it say Xabraxis is banned?


Whatever GW decides, I sure won't mind some sort of firewarrior boost.

Wolf Lord Balrog
29-03-2011, 18:10
Orks are very shooty and they have bs2

you don't need high bs to be shooty, you just need to be points thrifty.
When they revamped orks, they didn't make them ws5, they just made them cheaper.

This solution worked for Orks because they are a Horde army. Tau are not a Horde army, the maximum size of their Troops units is 12 models. Hence me pointing out earlier that making them cheaper is of limited use. They need to be made more effective per point, and given that they can only be made slightly cheaper, then some sort of buff to their shootiness will also be required.

owen matthew
29-03-2011, 19:39
This may leave Tau feeling "left behind" by stat inflation, but IMO it would be better to argue that, for example SoB and Guard need to go back to being BS3 armies, rather than Tau becoming a BS4 army.

To each, their own. I just hope GW dissagrees with you!;)

By the way, even if SOB and IG went to BS3 I would still think Tau are deserving of a BS4.

Skyros
29-03-2011, 19:41
This may leave Tau feeling "left behind" by stat inflation, but IMO it would be better to argue that, for example SoB and Guard need to go back to being BS3 armies, rather than Tau becoming a BS4 army.

Guard should certainly be BS3. Sisters, not so much.

I note that the previous ISTS (BS4) in the DH codex are now BS 3 in the new GK codex (warrior acolytes).

owen matthew
29-03-2011, 19:52
Orks are very shooty and they have bs2

you don't need high bs to be shooty, you just need to be points thrifty.
When they revamped orks, they didn't make them ws5, they just made them cheaper.

Yep. The BS5 does not matter so much when you have a 6 point double shot, st4 assault weapon that can come in units of 30. They are absurdly good when you factor in T4 and 2A base, and with FC and WAGH, they are among the best (easily most flexible) troops in the game IMHO. The 6+ save is not even an issue because everything in the game gets a 4++, or you take a force field and call it a day. All of this goes well together to make them some of the best shooters in a troop slot as well, and FAR better than Tau FW in all terms except BS.

I have a 120 boy shoota mob, and it shoots like a dasiy, then it assaults up the leftovers, steam-rolls most all-comer games, then it goes into my closet for months at a time because it is the most borring army I own.

I yearn to have the Tau fixed and delivered back into my waiting hands! That is a bit melodramatic, but you must get the point. When the hell is this new book going to get here, I am going to go crazy waiting? I cannot wait for some codex creep-loving, over powered Ward-esque nonsence, especially since they did not get any at all last time around!

Vaktathi
29-03-2011, 20:00
Guard should certainly be BS3. Sisters, not so much.

I note that the previous ISTS (BS4) in the DH codex are now BS 3 in the new GK codex (warrior acolytes).

Warrior Acolytes are *not* Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, even when given carapace and hotshot lasguns they aren't really Stormtroopers. Though that's a different topic altogether.

The bearded one
29-03-2011, 20:05
I note that the previous ISTS (BS4) in the DH codex are now BS 3 in the new GK codex (warrior acolytes).

Indeed. For this I direct you towards the threads of bitter rage over the lack of inquisitoriness in the GK codex :)


I think I'd want the stats to remain the same. So far I've noticed that, at least recently in fantasy, GW tends to keep the stats ( or at least the important stats ) identical but changes point costs, weaponry, special rules etc. BS4 is a signficant change in the army and I think it is far more likely that they either become cheaper or get better weapons.

Any changes that will occur when the Tau get revamped will most likely be improvements in technology. In a way this represents the races in the game moving forward somewhat ( even if the timeline doesn't ). In past edition the empire in fantasy had simple handguns and cannons and now they're building clockwork angels and steampowered horses. Tau can easily advance from codex to codex with the introduction of cooler tech and newer marks of battlesuit.

owen matthew
29-03-2011, 20:11
@ TBO. That is why I posit the trade of the markerlite for the stat boost. I never asked for it for free. i agree, though, GW does tend to do this, although, sometimes they surprise you and fix things that don't work well enough, or nerf hings that were too good, with stats.

Raibaru
29-03-2011, 20:54
The BS is fine. It's the lack of options the unit has that hurts it. Heavy/Special weapon options for the unit would benefit them far more greatly and would also add more variety to the army as a whole.

It's not like Tau are meant to be specialized in the same way Eldar are where each unit does only one thing. A suit that acts as a support platform for some heavy weapons or simply coming up with some new weapon options to give troops would suit them well.

The BS issue isn't really an issue as many armies, like Eldar for example, are stuck with BS 3 on a large number of things too. And they don't have pieplate envt like IG do.

SgtTaters
29-03-2011, 21:22
This solution worked for Orks because they are a Horde army. Tau are not a Horde army, the maximum size of their Troops units is 12 models.

Exactly, you now have the same number of fire warriors, but 30% more points to spend on everything else, that's the idea behind a points drop for their core troops.

Tau would then be able to field more fancy battlesuits, put more upgrades on units and so on. It wouldn't be a horde of fire warriors, it would be fire warriors supported by more options.

chamelion 6
29-03-2011, 21:38
Just my 2 cents...

I don't play Tau myself but a good friend has a large Tau force and I play against them probably more than other races except SM, so that's the POV I'm coming from.

I think most of us agree the Tau need a good buff up at this point. And I think the FW need something to make them more attractive because I like to see them in more games and taking a more dominate role than they usually do. That said, I'd hate to see them to to BS 3. I think there are valid justifications, fluff wise, for either BS 3 or 4 and I don't think it'd break the game in any way but it'd really take away from the character of the army as it plays currently. The key point in their fluff, the thing that makes them unique in the GW universe is their reliance on technology to win the day.

While the current rules are a bit clunky they do get this idea across well. Simply raising them to BS4 would take away a good deal of the character of the army and a good deal of what makes them so unique.

I like the idea of the markerlights, but not so much the rules to impliment them. I think the Tau could / should have better long range heavy weapon platforms that are deployed separate from FW units that a FW unit with a marker light has access to. For example, a long range missle system that might be deployed anywhere on the board that could be triggered by a FW unit with LOS to the enemy as though it was a part of their unit. If there was enough variety of these systems, A/T, A/I and so on, then a unit with a marker light become much more flexible and can call on specialized heavy support without it being organic to that unit... And one or two platforms might support several FW units from a well protected area of the board.

Just some thoughts. I'd like to see rules that emphasize the manuever / Technology aspect of the Tau and not just give in to the urge to make the BS 4 or just cut point values. Raising the BS makes them just another BS 4 army and simply cutting the value takes away from the feel that they are supposed to me a more elite army...

Charistoph
29-03-2011, 22:44
I like the idea of the markerlights, but not so much the rules to impliment them. I think the Tau could / should have better long range heavy weapon platforms that are deployed separate from FW units that a FW unit with a marker light has access to. For example, a long range missle system that might be deployed anywhere on the board that could be triggered by a FW unit with LOS to the enemy as though it was a part of their unit. If there was enough variety of these systems, A/T, A/I and so on, then a unit with a marker light become much more flexible and can call on specialized heavy support without it being organic to that unit... And one or two platforms might support several FW units from a well protected area of the board.


Hmm, maybe we could put it on a skimmer chassis, too. And give it a couple Marker Lights and Burst Cannon to defend itself with...

Oh wait, we have that! It's called a Sky Ray, and improving on that beast, and mounting Seekers in general, is best saved for another thread.

And here's another point, Seekers can be mounted on every vehicle. That's the main reason Warrior Shas'ui have access to a non-networked Marker Light.

chamelion 6
29-03-2011, 23:33
Hmm, maybe we could put it on a skimmer chassis, too. And give it a couple Marker Lights and Burst Cannon to defend itself with...

Oh wait, we have that! It's called a Sky Ray, and improving on that beast, and mounting Seekers in general, is best saved for another thread.

And here's another point, Seekers can be mounted on every vehicle. That's the main reason Warrior Shas'ui have access to a non-networked Marker Light.

A similar idea to that, yes. But I'm talking about somethng more flexible and not nearly so expensive. And with a variety of specialized weapon packages. It's an idea that's only barely been explored. And for my tastes, it's a lot more interesting than more BS4 spam.

To each their own, I guess...

Charistoph
30-03-2011, 01:14
A similar idea to that, yes. But I'm talking about somethng more flexible and not nearly so expensive. And with a variety of specialized weapon packages. It's an idea that's only barely been explored. And for my tastes, it's a lot more interesting than more BS4 spam.

To each their own, I guess...

Heh, trust me it has been explored in depth, and not just in the 2400 post monster on this board. Tau Online, Second Sphere, and Advanced Tau Tactica have all discussed ways of changing the Sky Ray. We've even discussed a Sky Ray version of the Area Denial Node with reloading racks and variable payload Seekers.

As I said, this is not the thread to discuss that, as this thread is about the Ballistic Skill of the army, not on how to improve the army. We already have at least 2-3 old threads and the more recent rumor thread to do that with.

Corporeal
30-03-2011, 01:19
Again, as other posters have said many times, BS4 isn't needed to make an army good at shooting, mechanically. If Fire Warriors had BS1 and S10, AP1 rifles, they'd be very good at shooting. The only sense in which they would not be good at it would be in a fluff sense, since BS1 suggests that they are "poor shots", but again, that only matters insofar as it pertains to fluff.

"Shooting well" means inflicting an amount of damage with shooting which is higher than most other (non-shooting-focused) armies could do if spending the same amount of points and using them to shoot with. No more, no less. It does not mean "hitting more often".

I guess you've never fired a gun before.

Shooting well means being able to accurately hit your target over and over again. Shooting well means being able to place your shot so that it does the damage that you expect it to do. Shooting well means being able to tightly group your shots at a distance.

Shooting well doesn't mean pulling the trigger and missing five times before you get a hit. That my amigo is called 'spray and pray' AKA 'don't even bother'

If tau existed in the form of being able to walk up to them and say 'how are you today?', i bet you I could put a shot through their helmets at 100 yards away before him and three of his buddies could take me out.

If firewarriors had BS1, they'd have the shooting equivalent of a chimpanzee. It doesn't matter how good the gun is. it matters how well you can shoot with it. If you can't hit a target with the gun you have, you're better off using it as a club.

carldooley
30-03-2011, 01:19
maybe move pathfinders to troops and a suit variant to fast attack? that way, more slots for singleton suits and more markerlights in the army. . . and they might get used this time around.

Vaktathi
30-03-2011, 01:27
If firewarriors had BS1, they'd have the shooting equivalent of a chimpanzee. It doesn't matter how good the gun is. it matters how well you can shoot with it. If you can't hit a target with the gun you have, you're better off using it as a club.
The gun does matter, BS isn't everything. Nobody holds the Ork Loota in disdain for being merely BS2, precisely because it has an amazing gun. BS is most definitely an important factor, but the weapon itself also matters greatly.

And lets be honest, 40k really does have only the most tenuous of connections when it comes to it's realistic representation of real world firearms. We've got 75cal rocket submachine guns as basic weapons and huge caliber artillery cannons that have a more than likely chance of not automatically annihilating vehicles even on direct hits, and armies built around charging in to whack people with chainsaw axes (that apparently have no chance of chains breaking and whatnot) in an age with vast interstellar war fleets and ships entirely capable of burning worlds from orbit in minutes, though apparently orbital bombardments from space based strategic weaponry is no more powerful than many mobile ground based cannon.

night2501
30-03-2011, 01:42
hmm a little idea for markerlights...

Following the current rules for choosing a unit resolving it's shooting and then moving to the next.

When choosign a unit with markerlights, first make all markerlights ranged attacks, for each hit you put a counter on the target unit, for each counter you can:
-make the current shoting unit weapons count as TL, if the weapons are already TL the unit gains +1 BS
- A friendly TAU model inmediatly makes a ranged attack with a single weapon, that hit on 2+
- The target model does not benefit from cover against the next ranged attack


When the unit ends it's shoting action, all unused counters are discarded, a model can not benefit from the same effect more than once per turn


I m sure someone can word that better than I do, this would simplify markelights, as it ends bookeping and unify network and normal markerlights, basically works the same as with missiles but with any weapon in the army, and the hits/counters must be spend before moving to the next unit, it would turn markerlights into a great force multiplier.

MasterDecoy
30-03-2011, 01:45
hmm a little idea for markerlights...

Following the current rules for choosing a unit resolving it's shooting and then moving to the next.

When choosign a unit with markerlights, first make all markerlights ranged attacks, for each hit you put a counter on the target unit, for each counter you can:
-make the current shoting unit weapons count as TL, if the weapons are already TL the unit gains +1 BS
- A friendly TAU model inmediatly makes a ranged attack with a single weapon, that hit on 2+
- The target model does not benefit from cover against the next ranged attack


When the unit ends it's shoting action, all unused counters are discarded, a model can not benefit from the same effect more than once per turn


I m sure someone can word that better than I do, this would simplify markelights, as it ends bookeping and unify network and normal markerlights, basically works the same as with missiles but with any weapon in the army, and the hits/counters must be spend before moving to the next unit, it would turn markerlights into a great force multiplier.

or you know, just make them like IG orders, fire all of them at the start of the shooting phase before making any other attacks.......

Wolf Lord Balrog
30-03-2011, 01:46
There was a whole very large discussion about many different ways to make Markerlights work better in the main Tau wishlisting thread. Basically it boiled down to either making them simpler, or making them more powerful/flexible. Both approaches have their merits, but I came down for more powerful/flexible.

chamelion 6
30-03-2011, 01:56
Heh, trust me it has been explored in depth, and not just in the 2400 post monster on this board. Tau Online, Second Sphere, and Advanced Tau Tactica have all discussed ways of changing the Sky Ray. We've even discussed a Sky Ray version of the Area Denial Node with reloading racks and variable payload Seekers.

As I said, this is not the thread to discuss that, as this thread is about the Ballistic Skill of the army, not on how to improve the army. We already have at least 2-3 old threads and the more recent rumor thread to do that with.

But I'm not really talking about modifying the Skyray. I'm talking about something different. You interjected the Skyray into it. What I'm suggesting doesn't have to be a variant or even related to the Skyray.

The point is that just raising the BS or cuting point cost is not, I believe, the first best option. Would it help make them more competative? Yes. But it would be at the cost of the qualities that make them unique. What I'm suggesting is a way to give FW access to somethng like heavy and special weapons and maintain their character. These could be "man packed" units like IG heavy weapon squads that deploy further behind the lines out of LOS, but their weapons controlled by front line units with LOS. That would give purpose and increased firepower to FW units, purpose to the Marker light and still maintain the character of the army.

The trick would be to develop a variety of appropriate weapons for these squads to deploy with. The goal would be to make them flexible enough and potent enough without going too far. It maintains the "synergy" between various specialized units that is a quality of the Tau that no other army has really.

Why limit yourself to just two ideas? Are there other ways to fix FW units other than just increasing BS or cutting points? That's where I'm trying to go here.

ehlijen
30-03-2011, 02:13
The Tau have dedicated specialist weapon support though: Battle suits.

The role and availability of suits needs to be rebalanced. Firewarriors seem to be bad because they have to do in 5th ed what people used suits for in 3rd and 4th (capturing stuff, collect VP/KPs).

Some kind of light battlesuit unit should be added as troops (XV15s?). The cost of the existing elite suits needs to be reevaluated in light of their inability to capture objectives in 5th ed. And maybe a suit carrying seeker missles should be added (maybe broadsides can swap their railguns for 4 missles? Maybe a new, midweight suit in the fast attack slot to carry them?).

Gundrone squadrons replacing their carbines with seeker missles could also work, but I don't know if a unit without ranged weapons (after firing the missles) should exist on the 40k table top.

chamelion 6
30-03-2011, 02:31
The Tau have dedicated specialist weapon support though: Battle suits.

The role and availability of suits needs to be rebalanced. Firewarriors seem to be bad because they have to do in 5th ed what people used suits for in 3rd and 4th (capturing stuff, collect VP/KPs).

Some kind of light battlesuit unit should be added as troops (XV15s?). The cost of the existing elite suits needs to be reevaluated in light of their inability to capture objectives in 5th ed. And maybe a suit carrying seeker missles should be added (maybe broadsides can swap their railguns for 4 missles? Maybe a new, midweight suit in the fast attack slot to carry them?).

Gundrone squadrons replacing their carbines with seeker missles could also work, but I don't know if a unit without ranged weapons (after firing the missles) should exist on the 40k table top.

This is the kind of thinking I was going for. I don't play Tau, but I play against them often and like the army very much.

These ideas need to be thought out more, but I agree, the support units need to carry more rounds than a few shots if they are to be meaningful. I think it would amount to some new variations on their weaponry.

Hellebore
30-03-2011, 02:56
I guess you've never fired a gun before.

Shooting well means being able to accurately hit your target over and over again. Shooting well means being able to place your shot so that it does the damage that you expect it to do. Shooting well means being able to tightly group your shots at a distance.

Shooting well doesn't mean pulling the trigger and missing five times before you get a hit. That my amigo is called 'spray and pray' AKA 'don't even bother'

If tau existed in the form of being able to walk up to them and say 'how are you today?', i bet you I could put a shot through their helmets at 100 yards away before him and three of his buddies could take me out.

If firewarriors had BS1, they'd have the shooting equivalent of a chimpanzee. It doesn't matter how good the gun is. it matters how well you can shoot with it. If you can't hit a target with the gun you have, you're better off using it as a club.


If you have any experience in this area you'd also know that every casualty in war is at the expense of thousands of fired rounds. The majority of shooting is supression, not killing. So being 'accurate' with a gun doesn't mean you're a squad of super snipers.


I've thought that specialist weapon gun drones could be cool. If you can mount a sniper rail rifle on a gun drone then a plasma rifle shouldn't be too difficult.

The Sky ray should really have ignore LoS small blast seeker missiles ImO.

Hellebore

Wolf Lord Balrog
30-03-2011, 03:55
Some kind of light battlesuit unit should be added as troops (XV15s?). The cost of the existing elite suits needs to be reevaluated in light of their inability to capture objectives in 5th ed. And maybe a suit carrying seeker missles should be added (maybe broadsides can swap their railguns for 4 missles? Maybe a new, midweight suit in the fast attack slot to carry them?).

Gundrone squadrons replacing their carbines with seeker missles could also work, but I don't know if a unit without ranged weapons (after firing the missles) should exist on the 40k table top.

I (or some people in the wishlisting thread, hard to remember who came up with what idea sometimes) came up with a few ideas for these things, and I incorporated them in my fandex.

For light battlesuit we have the XV12 'Jeopardy' Team, a Troops selection, but limited to one per Fire Warrior Team.

For the Seeker Missile problem, I chopped the price in half for the old kind and introduced two new kinds, both relatively cheap per missile. For mass missileering I cut down the price of the Sky Ray, and I've been thinking about if it and/or the Hamerhead should perhaps be allowed to be taken in squadrons.

Edit: And Fire Support Drones as an option for FW Team Leaders, basically a BS3 drone with a single 'Crisis'-class weapon on it.

chamelion 6
30-03-2011, 04:16
It might even be interesting to come up with some weapon options that could be taken by either infantry units, like IG heavy weapon teams, or mounted on sove version of the battle suit to make them more mobile. All could be tied into the marker light so that any unit that has a ML could fire the weapon at an enemy unit it has LOS to.


The advantage in the infantry team would be that they could take advantage of cover in ways that larger units couldn't. Trading concealment for mobility. That would give the Tau one more level of flexibility that stays in line with their character. Possibly mounting them on drones as H/K units.

This idea just appeals to me...

-Loki-
30-03-2011, 04:31
I really liked the idea of heavy weapons that sit back and can fire at markerlighted units. That's very Tau, and also adds heavy weapon 'upgrades' for a squad that aren't a standard upgrade like in the SM/Guard books. Kind of like a universal upgrade for every markerlight equipped squad.

The bearded one
30-03-2011, 04:58
I think a heavy support choice of drone squads with some heavy weaponry ( plasma's, missilepods etc. ) would be really cool.

Also I hereby advocate a fast attack unit of CC battlesuits with power weapon thingies! :p

Wolf Lord Balrog
30-03-2011, 05:02
I think a heavy support choice of drone squads with some heavy weaponry ( plasma's, missilepods etc. ) would be really cool.

I suggested that in my fandex, but I made them Fast Attack


Also I hereby advocate a fast attack unit of CC battlesuits with power weapon thingies! :p

No, just no.

Chapters Unwritten
30-03-2011, 05:05
Doesn't the codex say they have bad eyesight?

Wolf Lord Balrog
30-03-2011, 05:17
Doesn't the codex say they have bad eyesight?

No, it doesn't. There was an Index Xenos article that described Tau sight as being different from human sight, and somewhat inferior in some ways. This 'they have bad eyes' thing has just been a facile branch for people to grab onto if they dislike the idea of Tau with better shooting accuracy.

Fithos
30-03-2011, 05:39
If I may add my 2 cents, I think that the Tau should have more accessibility to BS4 but I don't think that should be a base stat line for their troops. I always thought that the bases of the Tau being good at shooting came form advanced tech and not natural skill. From a background perspective I could see it being likely that Tau have a lot more veteran Fire Warriors than the codex would suggest, but not by a whole lot.

In game terms I don't see what the complaint is. By my Mathhammer I am getting that a basic squad of Tau out wound most things thanks to their higher strength gun. They are slightly worse than a BS4 S4 gun against GEQ and actually significantly better against MEQ. I agree with those before me that the real problem is the lack of specialization in the squad. Tau are great at dealing with mass infantry and light vehicles and adding more ability to deal with those threats seems like a waste as it will also cause the models to increase in points to do something better that they already do so well.

If they had access to Veteran Fire Warriors I could see that, but I think, as has been previously stated many times, that the Tau's good shooting ability is a result of technology. Strong guns and lo0ts of em.

Corporeal
30-03-2011, 08:25
The gun does matter, BS isn't everything. Nobody holds the Ork Loota in disdain for being merely BS2, precisely because it has an amazing gun. BS is most definitely an important factor, but the weapon itself also matters greatly.


In this case, you're confusing precision firing with amount of rounds being fired. yes, they can score a hit, but it's because of the amount of rounds being fired.



If you have any experience in this area you'd also know that every casualty in war is at the expense of thousands of fired rounds. The majority of shooting is supression, not killing. So being 'accurate' with a gun doesn't mean you're a squad of super snipers.

again, confusing precision firing with rounds per minute. Just because your gun can spit out high rounds per minute, doesn't mean you're shooting well. That's why they call it 'spray and pray'.



I've thought that specialist weapon gun drones could be cool. If you can mount a sniper rail rifle on a gun drone then a plasma rifle shouldn't be too difficult.

The Sky ray should really have ignore LoS small blast seeker missiles ImO.

now rail rifles on gun drones would be an interesting thing to see with a squad of firewarriors. and i'll agree with you on the seeker missiles. Currently they're autonomous, laser-guided penetrators.


Doesn't the codex say they have bad eyesight?

no. the only thing mentioned that's anywhere close is they attack during night.

chaospantz
30-03-2011, 09:01
I dont have my Tau book handy but i beleve that the average fire warrior rifle has a Str of 5. So they have average aim with a weapon that has a little extra punch.

owen matthew
30-03-2011, 10:28
I dont have my Tau book handy but i beleve that the average fire warrior rifle has a Str of 5. So they have average aim with a weapon that has a little extra punch.

Welcome to the point. ;)

owen matthew
30-03-2011, 10:42
And maybe a suit carrying seeker missles should be added (maybe broadsides can swap their railguns for 4 missles? Maybe a new, midweight suit in the fast attack slot to carry them?).

Gundrone squadrons replacing their carbines with seeker missles could also work, but I don't know if a unit without ranged weapons (after firing the missles) should exist on the 40k table top.

Where the heck are you going to get all the marker-lights to fire all of these one-shot missles!? Every squad that does not pay extra points again to have target lock will be wasting its own shots and movement on the 50% chance a different model can fire a single st8 missle (you probably had to pay for as well) somewhere else! I never got the logic. I can see the use/aplication, but not the good strong logic. No other army has to go through all that crap to shoot a one-off missle, why should Tau, just because?

IMHO the MT is only good for a BS boost, but it is ironicaly not good at doing that.

Hence my suggestion to drop it completely and just go with a flat BS4 upgrade. I am very against the GW streamlining that has become vogue these days, but not as much as I am against the baroque MT shenanigans everyone seems to be so fond of.