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meanmachine
28-03-2011, 19:04
can a keeper of secrets with spirit swallower regain wounds from wounds caused due to his stomp attacks

also is there anywhere in the rules that confirms the keeper will strike at I10 for stomp attack since he has ASF. some say yes he will have I10 and some say no it always goes last even though he has ASF, i would just like conformation on it.

Grimgormx
28-03-2011, 19:07
To the first I would say yes.

to the second, no it doesnt benefits from the ASF because it isnt an attack (you dont roll to hit) but impacts that are resolved at the end of the combat (before resolution) if the creature is alive

Lex
28-03-2011, 19:09
The answer is no to both. The newest FAQ is pretty clear. Stomp and breath weapons can not benefit from nor be a benefit to any special rules,abilities, spells, et. al.

DenWhalen
28-03-2011, 19:11
Per the BRB FAQ, Stomps and Thunderstomps do not benefit from any special rules or vice versa. Therefore Spirit Swallower does not trigger and Always Strikes First does not apply.

meanmachine
28-03-2011, 19:13
thanks

that has answered my question easily

Grimgormx
28-03-2011, 20:07
thks Lex for the clarification, I wasnt sure about the first one.

the second one was easy. ;)

tmarichards
28-03-2011, 20:26
Well I've not seen this thread before...

But Lex has the right of it... cue the always amusing argument along the lines of 'daemonic gifts aren't special abilities'

Kalandros
28-03-2011, 21:32
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610150a_FAQ_Warhammer_Rulebook__V1_3.pdf

page 6/9

Q: Are upgrades bought for characters from army specific lists which
aren’t magic items or equipment (such as Vampiric Powers or
Deamonic Gifts) special rules? (p66)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise in an entry.


So no argument, Spirit Swallower is a special rule so it cannot be used in combination of the Thunderstomp and the Keeper's ASF does not affect the order of striking of Thunderstomp - its still ASL

Khorneflakes
29-03-2011, 08:36
if my warshrine has +1str (making it str 5 now) from a giver of glory roll does that effect thunderstomp?

muppet515
29-03-2011, 09:56
if my warshrine has +1str (making it str 5 now) from a giver of glory roll does that effect thunderstomp?

No, 'cause a warshrine can't thunderstomp.

narrativium
29-03-2011, 11:27
No, 'cause a warshrine can't thunderstomp.
While that answers the specific question it doesn't answer the general one of 'is a strength bonus considered to be a special rule?'. For example, in the Ogre army list a unit of Monstrous Infantry can have their Strength buffed by Gut Magic and a Tyrant can buff his Strength with a Big Name; do either of these buffs affect a Stomp?

sssk
29-03-2011, 11:39
For example, in the Ogre army list a unit of Monstrous Infantry can have their Strength buffed by Gut Magic and a Tyrant can buff his Strength with a Big Name; do either of these buffs affect a Stomp?

The first part, no, it's a spell, which are specifically stated to not affect stomps.

The second one, a little more difficult. I'd probably still say it doesn't affect the stomp, just on the basis that it is a special rule. However clarification would be a lovely thing.

jtrowell
29-03-2011, 12:45
Personnaly I think that yes in those cases: the spell or ability does not affect the stomp byt itself, but increase the stat that is then used.

If you have an ability or weapon that says "your attacks get +1str" it won't apply to a stomp attack.

However if you have a passive ability increasing your str by +1, then I think that it should work, as the ability has no direct relation to the stomp, it's just that the stomp use the str stat as it is.

Memnos
29-03-2011, 13:06
This has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads on here.

The question isn't 'Does Spirit Swallower affect Thunderstomp?' but 'Does Thunderstomp affect Spirit Swallower?'

This may seem to be an argument of semantics, but it very much isn't.

Spirit Swallower allows the model to regain wounds if it causes them. Thunderstomp does not benefit in any way, shape or form from Spirit Swallower.

If you're saying that rules that interact with Thunderstomp don't work, then I'm buying a whole bunch of monsters, because Regeneration and Ward saves won't work.

Why? Because they aren't rules that benefit Thunderstomp. They're rules that are affected -by- Thunderstomp and, as the people on this thread have said so well, special rules cannot be used in conjunction with Thunderstomp.

Lex
29-03-2011, 14:01
This has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads on here.

The question isn't 'Does Spirit Swallower affect Thunderstomp?' but 'Does Thunderstomp affect Spirit Swallower?'

This may seem to be an argument of semantics, but it very much isn't.

Spirit Swallower allows the model to regain wounds if it causes them. Thunderstomp does not benefit in any way, shape or form from Spirit Swallower.

If you're saying that rules that interact with Thunderstomp don't work, then I'm buying a whole bunch of monsters, because Regeneration and Ward saves won't work.

Why? Because they aren't rules that benefit Thunderstomp. They're rules that are affected -by- Thunderstomp and, as the people on this thread have said so well, special rules cannot be used in conjunction with Thunderstomp.

:sigh: Well, it may have been done ad nauseum but you missed the FAQ revision that says

Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special rules,
equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions.

The semantics don't matter. GW fixed it. It doesn't matter which affects which. You can't regain wounds from a TS.

Memnos
29-03-2011, 14:37
:sigh: Well, it may have been done ad nauseum but you missed the FAQ revision that says

Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special rules,
equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions.

The semantics don't matter. GW fixed it. It doesn't matter which affects which. You can't regain wounds from a TS.

NICE! No ward saves against Thunderstomp? I'm loading up on Monsters and I play Beastmen!

Lex
29-03-2011, 14:46
NICE! No ward saves against Thunderstomp? I'm loading up on Monsters and I play Beastmen!

:wtf::rolleyes:

Memnos
29-03-2011, 14:47
:wtf::rolleyes:

:rolleyes::eyebrows:

Walgis
29-03-2011, 16:48
the thing is that spirit swalower ist an equipment or magicall item ;)
imho no armour saves and no wards againts thunder stomps!! huray for stegadons!! Theyre back!

tmarichards
29-03-2011, 16:56
I'm beginning to sense a shift into overtroll mode...

meanmachine
29-03-2011, 17:22
what do people mean by no Armour or ward saves allowed vs stomp

scruffyryan
29-03-2011, 17:27
what do people mean by no Armour or ward saves allowed vs stomp

Don't worry about it, they're just being pedantic.

Kalandros
29-03-2011, 18:13
what do people mean by no Armour or ward saves allowed vs stomp

Its all a bunch of nonsense of the "Internet Troll" type.

Memnos
29-03-2011, 21:01
what do people mean by no Armour or ward saves allowed vs stomp

I don't think armour counts as a special rule, but ward saves definitely do.

The argument is this: If Thunderstomp and Stomp doesn't affect, and isn't affected by, special rules, then they aren't affected by ward saves.

That's clearly not the intent, but the rule-as-written in the FAQ is that Thunderstomp and Stomp are not affected by Ward Saves.

Ward Save is a special rule.
Thunderstomp neither affects, nor is affected by, special rules.
Therefore, Thunderstomp isn't affected by ward saves.

It's not what they intended, but that's the wording.

Leth Shyish'phak
29-03-2011, 21:23
NICE! No ward saves against Thunderstomp? I'm loading up on Monsters and I play Beastmen!


I don't think armour counts as a special rule, but ward saves definitely do.

The argument is this: If Thunderstomp and Stomp doesn't affect, and isn't affected by, special rules, then they aren't affected by ward saves.

That's clearly not the intent, but the rule-as-written in the FAQ is that Thunderstomp and Stomp are not affected by Ward Saves.

Ward Save is a special rule.
Thunderstomp neither affects, nor is affected by, special rules.
Therefore, Thunderstomp isn't affected by ward saves.

It's not what they intended, but that's the wording.

I must ask, did you fart your brain out? :eyebrows:

The FAQ says that Thunderstomp does not benefit from special rules, not that it is unaffected by special rules. Allowing an enemy model to take a ward save is hardly a benefit. And yes, Spirit Swallower/Thunderstomp do benefit from each other.

Kalandros
29-03-2011, 21:35
This topic quickly went into ridiculous territory.

Khorneflakes
29-03-2011, 23:50
warshrines do get thunderstomp! they are classed as monsters in the rulebook so therefore they get it

theunwantedbeing
29-03-2011, 23:55
warshrines do get thunderstomp! they are classed as monsters in the rulebook so therefore they get it

FAQ says they don't.

Kevlar
30-03-2011, 00:28
Didn't we have this discussion a while ago? I think it was pretty clear even before the updated FAQ that they didn't stack.

H33D
30-03-2011, 01:57
why are people claiming ward saves are special rules lol.

shelfunit.
30-03-2011, 05:58
why are people claiming ward saves are special rules lol.

This ^. I thought "Special Rules" was only things contained in the "Special Rules" section :confused:

antihelten
30-03-2011, 16:23
While ward save isn't a special rule in and of itself, it is usually provided by a special rule or magic item

but as Leth pointed out it's irrelevant as the faq clearly says "benefit"

Walgis
30-03-2011, 17:36
as for being a jerk i can state that Tstomp benefits from oponent ward save as when aponent takes a ward savehe can survive and thats eneficial for thunder stomp because the thunder stomp will have what to stomp next round and thats the benefit :) LMAOED all the time when i was writing.

Kevlar
30-03-2011, 19:30
Ward saves and armor saves aren't special rules. They are regular rules.

Memnos
30-03-2011, 19:45
Ward saves and armor saves aren't special rules. They are regular rules.

All right. Fair play - so only Regenerate doesn't work against ward saves. That's clearly in the special rules section.

It benefits from Thunderstomp by being allowed to be used. The special rule benefits from it. If it doesn't, then clearly spirit swallower doesn't benefit from it in any way. Try to look up "benefit" in any dictionary that disagrees with it.

Clearly, that's a rubbish argument and against the spirit of the game. I'm pretty sure everyone recognizes that. It is, however, the way the rules are worded.

As one who doesn't play Daemons, it feels a bit miserly to deny a KoS those wounds, considering how expensive it is and how vulnerable it is in the modern edition with the step up rule and steadfast. I have seen one player bring a greater daemon to the table in the new edition: a Great Unclean One. It has died in every single one of the half-dozen games I've seen it played in. With half the wounds, I can't imagine any other doing much better. Let them have their stupid item that means they can survive and eventually grind to death a 400 point unit with their 650 point unit that can be killed by a single cannon shot.

If people disagree, well, the rule clearly states that no special rule benefits from Thunderstomp, so Regeneration is gone.

Kevlar
30-03-2011, 20:15
If people disagree, well, the rule clearly states that no special rule benefits from Thunderstomp, so Regeneration is gone.

I think you have that backwards. Clearly RAW means you can not use thunderstomp against units that have regeneration. :rolleyes:

shelfunit.
30-03-2011, 20:33
Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special rules,
equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions.

Well, regeneration doesn't benefit from stomp/thunderstomp.
Regeneration works against normal attacks. Stomp/thunderstomp does not provide any bonuses to regeneration does it?
As far as I see it (opinion here) this FAQ was made for having the Stomps/thunderstomps and any mutually beneficial rules together on the same model - as with the original example of KoS and SS, not about seperate models with special rules going at it. Still, that's just an opinion...

Memnos
31-03-2011, 10:24
Well, regeneration doesn't benefit from stomp/thunderstomp.
Regeneration works against normal attacks. Stomp/thunderstomp does not provide any bonuses to regeneration does it?
As far as I see it (opinion here) this FAQ was made for having the Stomps/thunderstomps and any mutually beneficial rules together on the same model - as with the original example of KoS and SS, not about seperate models with special rules going at it. Still, that's just an opinion...

The same argument can be made for Spirit Swallower. Spirit Swallower doesn't benefit from Stomp/Thunderstomp. It merely works against wounds. In the same sense that Regeneration does.

I see your point. It just seems silly that they'd nerf a 100 point magical ability on a model no one ever takes. ;)

shelfunit.
31-03-2011, 12:27
The same argument can be made for Spirit Swallower. Spirit Swallower doesn't benefit from Stomp/Thunderstomp. It merely works against wounds. In the same sense that Regeneration does.

I see your point. It just seems silly that they'd nerf a 100 point magical ability on a model no one ever takes. ;)

Well spirit swallower does benefit, as the wounds caused by TS can be used by SS in order to return wounds to the KoS. Nothing unbeneficial there.
Regeneration recieves no benefit from TS, and so is fine to use. By this I mean that a monster has normal attacks, which regen works against, and TS which regen works against. If, for example regen worked in a more advantageous way against non-standard attacks, then it would be considered to gain a "benefit" from TS and it would be this that the FAQ would dis-allow.
Again, that is just my reading of the rules and it could be argued that regeneration itself is a benefit of the "Regeneration" special rule etc, etc.

Walgis
31-03-2011, 13:15
SS doesnt benefit from TS directly it benefits from wound that the model cause via TS, but SS doesnt get anything from TS directly.
And if you argue i write earlier, then TS benefits from wards as if the enemy model survives via ward its beneficial for TS becaus next round it will have what to stomp again.

Chris_
31-03-2011, 13:24
Omg... Seriously, this is a new low for Warseer.

Squigkikka
31-03-2011, 13:43
I think it's safe to say that whoever has Memnos for opponent has no hair left on his head.

For tearing it out in frustration, I mean, beneficial effect or not.

shelfunit.
31-03-2011, 15:45
SS doesnt benefit from TS directly it benefits from wound that the model cause via TS, but SS doesnt get anything from TS directly.
And if you argue i write earlier, then TS benefits from wards as if the enemy model survives via ward its beneficial for TS becaus next round it will have what to stomp again.

Yes SS does directly benefit from TS, as wounds caused by TS will be directly used by SS. Ward saves are irrelvent here as they are not "Specal Rules", all of which are clearly listed in the "Special Rules" section of the BRB.

AMWOOD co
01-04-2011, 03:55
And if you argue i write earlier, then TS benefits from wards as if the enemy model survives via ward its beneficial for TS becaus next round it will have what to stomp again.

Faulty logic. The goal of Thunderstomp is to kill the opponent, and so denying anything that keeps an opponent alive, like a ward or regeration save, is actually conterproductive to the goal of Thunderstomp. Therefore, it is not a benefit for your opponent to have ward or regeneration saves.

shelfunit.
01-04-2011, 04:54
Faulty logic. The goal of Thunderstomp is to kill the opponent, and so denying anything that keeps an opponent alive, like a ward or regeration save, is actually conterproductive to the goal of Thunderstomp. Therefore, it is not a benefit for your opponent to have ward or regeneration saves.

Nice argument.

Walgis
01-04-2011, 05:33
and wheres that writen? for me TS roll is to stomp, so it benefits from regen or ward because the stompy enemies survive for longer stomping :)

Maephestos
01-04-2011, 15:53
Seriously, Walgis has already admitted to trolling cause its funny, there's no need to refute his points :)

Walgis
01-04-2011, 17:55
ahhh why did to tell, some one was thinking i was seriuos :\

AMWOOD co
01-04-2011, 20:40
ahhh why did to tell, some one was thinking i was seriuos :\

*Pat's Walgis on the shoulder*
It's okay, we know you just wanted your fun. (heheh)