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Brother Alexos
29-03-2011, 04:31
Hey Warseer. I would like to know a little about the new armybooks for these two races, because I am still deadlocked on what army to get. It has narrowed down, though, to just lunatics. I was thinking either Orcs and Goblins or Beastmen. I just wanted a brief skim-through of the new Codexes for each, such as new characters and how you think rules have changed them for the positive and negative. If you could help me, I would greatly appreciate it.

H33D
29-03-2011, 06:44
Well I have both codices and have played both armies, so I will give it a shot.

1- Beastmen do not have great magic items. They do not have scary characters except for the Doombull. Their primary stats are their Strength and number of Attacks. Don't expect multiple wound weapons from them unless you bring Ghorros Warhoof.

2- Both armies have decent chariots. Razorgors are very powerful and have good crew, Orc ones are pretty average, and Goblin ones are weak but can form units and devastate the enemy with impact hits on the charge.

3- Beastmen have a few core choices. Ungor Raiders are good harassers, Ungor Herds are good cheap steadfast units. Gor are good shock troops with their T4 and primal fury + extra hand weapons. The hounds are a good screen. The tuskgor chariot isn't even that bad but a Razorgor chariot is better. Orcs & Goblins have several good core choices with good options. Orcs that can take armor, Orcs with frenzy and a ward save, Big Un upgrades for Orcs, Goblins with spears, Goblins with netters, Goblins with fanatics, and 2 fast cavalry choices both can be ranged or with spears & shields. Orcs & Goblins win hands down in the variety department for all troops.

4- Flavor. Beastmen are a pretty bland army, I'm not going to lie. If being a big scary monster and rampagin through your opponent is all that matters to you they are a good choice. Orcs & Goblins on the other hand are a bit slower but have a lot more variety and flavor to their units. While Orcs & Goblins have war machines, squigs, fast cavalry, and many many characters, Beastmen have a small handful of characters, and only infantry, monsters (+ monstrous infantry), chariots, and cavalry, all of which O&G have too.

Basically what it comes down to is Beastmen are about the same as last edition, minus the chaos marks. They are an aggressive army that relies on their charges to be devastating to win. Fluffing your attacks will lose you the game with them as they are not terribly hard to kill and have rather poor leadership. Orcs & Goblins are an army that you can mold easily into exactly what you want as you play as they have such an immense variety of units and options to choose from, but they are still 2 very different armies. I hope this helped!

EdFireborn
29-03-2011, 06:47
I think you mean army books =p

I'm not too sure on the new O&G, but I can say that they have far more options than beastmen. They're also far more competitive from whats being said around here too.
They are also fairly similar in stats, with beastmen being called brown orcs not that long ago.

Personally, I prefer beastmen for their "horror in the forest" feel. And they seem to be less hoardy more focused on big monsters.

Ultimately its your choice. I dare say many people here will be singing the praises of O&G though.

Rosstifer
29-03-2011, 07:01
Beastmen. Better models, you see them A LOT less, and IMO if you took the optimum build for both the Beastmen would come out on top. With a BSB and Beastlord (contrary to the first reply, a very solid lord choice) you can practically guarantee hatred, and the +1 strength banner I run in 42 Gor makes them a killing machine. 22 Str 4 with re-rolls. Bestigor are very good value for points, and the magic is better than O&G, thanks to the versatility of lore choices and the Herdstone, a solid magic item. Razorgor and Chariots are very good monsterish choices, Minotaurs can be solid but you have to build the army around them. Unfortunately the only rare worth taking is the Ghorgon, and even then... Still, another + is Harpys. Their very very good.

As EdFireborn said, it come's down to the comic relief insanity of Orc's and Goblins (which has it's own appeal) or the primal horror feel of the Beastmen.

Also, the magic items may not be brilliant, but Gnarled Hide, Herdstone, and the Beast Banner alone make the list much better than the Orc's list, which is rubbbish now.

Hope this helps.

Ultimate Life Form
29-03-2011, 10:45
The evolution of Warhammer - swapping ecological niches around:

Beasts of Chaos -> Brown Orcs

Orcs -> Green Lizardmen

Lizardmen -> ???

Rosstifer
29-03-2011, 10:53
The evolution of Warhammer - swapping ecological niches around:

Beasts of Chaos -> Brown Orcs

Orcs -> Green Lizardmen

Lizardmen -> ???

Thats BeastMEN, thank you very much. Not Chaotic these days :(
Just mildly disorganized.

Harwammer
29-03-2011, 11:11
Beastmen are pretty good if you max out on Ld and bestigors (which may even be better than their orc equivalents, black orcs). Beastmen also can have quite a reliable magic phase with herdstone and a few shaman.

However, orcs are much more versatile, so if you only want one army (but an army that can play several playstyles effectively) then go green. I also feel the orc monsters are better value so if you like big stuff go green. With the exclusion of mangler squigs (easily converted from 2x great squigs + jewellery chain) they have a full model range unlike beastmen.

If you want an army few others play and don't mind being pigeon holed into 1 fairly effective build then I have little reason not to recommend beasts.

BigbyWolf
29-03-2011, 11:32
with beastmen being called brown orcs not that long ago.

Yeah, but this was mainly an internet knee-jerk over-reaction to them losing their ability to mix herds and to skirmish.

Pancakey
29-03-2011, 13:01
Orcs can really test your ability to adapt. Animosity can change the game for you in an instant. Also in the new book there are some decent choices with random movement... Got good dice mojo?? O&G will put you to the test!

Beasts are pretty underated. They only have a few viable builds , but any buffed unit with hatred can be nasty. The rares are generally considered over-costed but can be fun ( until you face a few cannons! ;).

Both armies tend to die in droves to shooting. Both have good magic potential.

So what's it gonna be? :)

sssk
29-03-2011, 13:06
Why don't you read/watch some battle reports of the two armies?

Malorian, oncebitten, and seabo come to mind as the main conspirators for the two factions.

I certainly didn't think much of beastmen until I watched oncebitten's youtube reports and read seabo's reports. I'm still not keen on the models, but the army has a lot more to it than I thought.

Jind_Singh
29-03-2011, 18:20
Mmm, of course I won't lie when I say I love my Orcs & Goblins and they are an amazing army - but this is a TOUGH call as I like both!

O & G

1) An army for life - SO MUCH VARIETY in the book you could happily amass a 10,000 point army AND STILL WANT MORE! So many ways to collect and make lists, you can bring a new list out each week if you wanted!

2) AMAZING models

3) Hard hitters on the tabletop - in the right hands they are just deadly, more so now with their new book.

4) Funny - they have silly antics/units that put smiles on peoples faces - but they can also lose their own games with the funny stuff - but still makes people smile!

5) WELL SUPPORTED - GW's lovechild, they will always get new army book, model support

6) Great fluff - they are ALL over the Warhammer World, and have fought EVERYONE! Great reason to get them as you can 'place yourself' in any realm, against any army, so really strong fluff side (*I personally love fluff, there is always a reason I am fighting a battle, and I know where the tribe has come from, etc).


Beastmen

1) Also some great models, but no access to all the army units, lots of 'no release' models

2) Interesting magic items/combos. They might not have the best stuff around but don't let that you fool you. I was re-reading their book just a few days ago and there are SO MANY AMAZING combos you can pull off! Made me drool!

3) Rare - not as many players so you have an edge vs new opponents as they won't know what to expect!

4) Solid generalship skills - anyone can play beastment, but it takes a solid player to actually do well with them. In the right hands they are WOW! They can crush!

5) A few builds, but not as much spice for collecting as the Orcs - Can't see a Beastmen army get past 4000pts

6) Expensive - many of the cool hitting units cost a fair bit of money

7) Beastigors ROCK! One of the best infantry units out there in the game


So you can see it's a tough one - part of me is itching to scream WAAAAGH and say the Greenskins but the other army is also a worthy choice - in this case you won't be sad by either of them so the best way to choose:

1) CAREFULLY read both books again paying attention to:

Fluff
Spells
Unit costs of points

2) Models - look at the units you like the sound of the most and see their models - are they available, will they be hard to assemble/paint/expensive?

And then based on whichever one comes ahead....


DO IT!

Have fun!

decker_cky
29-03-2011, 18:28
I have to agree with Jind's assessment, except for the expensive comment. The limited build thing is mostly true - my 2500 pt army has a pretty set 1000 pts in it, with a few different builds filling the rest. But that core of the army is put together with 2-3 battalions. Every model in the beastmen is something you need in multiples. With 3 battalions, you have a core you'll use most every 2500 pt game. Not many armies have a battalion that useful (most have a unit you don't want, or in the best case, that you'd only want one of).

I'd recommend reading the books as Jind said though.

Here's a guide I wrote to starting beastmen if you're interested:

http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=21839

popisdead
29-03-2011, 19:14
Even though I play my Beastmen army weekly I'd recommend Orcs. Thier book is fantastic and so flavourful and fun. Generally though I recommend going by which models you want to paint/play with more.

To be a good Beastmen general you have to spend quite a bit of time learning the army. Then they are pretty solid then.

If you wanted to check out what current Beastmen are like, visit the Herdstone (link in my signature).

Seabo
29-03-2011, 19:29
Orcs are good. Very popular and can be very competitive but a lot of ppl have already commented on one of the problems. There are way too many Orc players!
Beastmen are considered to be the complete basement of competetive armies. Right down there with Wood Elves. They take a lot of love and perseverance and have an extremely steep learning curve but can be deadly if used right.
Kitted out Doombull is still probably one of the nastiest lords out there though ;).
Really, its all about personal preference. But if you're looking for loads of choices and a better edge go with Orcs. Beastmen are a long, hard road but can be just as deadly.

sulla
29-03-2011, 19:52
Orcs if you want to do some damage outside of combat. Beastmen don't really have too much damage potential outside of combat and their available spell lores don't help you out there too much either. Mostly, you have to win it in combat (which they are capable of doing). O&G have a lot of potential to do damage outside of combat and their magic lores are pretty good too. Their best combat units (things like black orcs and savage big 'uns with xhw) are comparable to those of beastmen but generally, they are a little weaker there. They are very vulnerable to purple sun though.

Rosstifer
30-03-2011, 01:08
Beasts have Purple Sun for damage outside of combat. That's worked pretty well for me so far.

Gormereth, the Fearmonger
30-03-2011, 03:15
Fluff-wise their both pretty descent, both investing heavily in the big hordes "smash everything" mentality that is just so fun.

Tactically they are kinda similar in that huge portions of the army selections in either book suffer from low leadership and need to stay within their general's Ld bubble or be jointed by a character or else risk being of limited effectiveness.

They both have bigh monsters, monsterous infantry, hugh block units, etc with the major differences between most of their troops being that O&G get Choppa Rules while Beastmen get Primal Fury. The big trick to their game play really comes down to one big difference (from at least from my persective): O&G have traditional warmachines while Beastmen have access to the Lores of magic.

O&G lore is not useless by any means (that teleport spell they have has brilliant potential) but their big spells (Foot and Bad Moon) cast at about the same Dwellers/Purple Sun/etc but the Foot can scatter, Moon only causes a single wound; both factors make them not in same league as the spell Beastmen have access to through the Lores of Shadow and Death. On the other hand Beastmens only shooting is in their Ungors w/short bows, Centigors w/axes or Cygors which are 275 point monsters with 5 wounds. O&G warmachines are cheaper than wizards, can be just as effective, can't be dispelled and about the same chance of exploding.

In conclusion if you want to have boyz running up with catapults in th back go with O&G. If you want brutes buffed by magic spells and awesome hexes go with Beastmen.