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Lord Gabranth
29-03-2011, 16:10
Hi everyone,

I have a question, why is it that everytime someone says "Hey I want to do a Night Lords army heavy on raptors" why do people bash them?

If 3.5 codex says that you could at the time field 0-1 raptor squads, BUT playing as Night Lords, you could field 0-4 raptor squads. I mean hell, they had hit and run which to me screams terror tactics.

So why is this?

Lord Damocles
29-03-2011, 16:21
I don't know that I've ever seen anyone bashed for saying they want to use Raptors in a Night Lords army.

I have seen people bashed for saying 'I want a 'fluffy' Night Lords army with nothing but Raptors. Codex: Chaos sucks like a dyson. I'ma use Blood Angels and take nothing but Assault squads, Mephiston, and Priests. Say you agree'...

Lord Gabranth
29-03-2011, 16:29
Well its just that im seeing alot, imo, of people just plainly giving others crap for wanting to run a raptor heavy Night Lords army. So it will be a fluffy army, so? Isnt every SM army and chapter fluffy?

And youre idea sounds good, it has come across my mind multiple times and I am thinking about running NL using the BA codex myself

Bryan
29-03-2011, 16:30
Because the Night Lords doctrine isn't ZOMG RAPTORS!!!!

It is a combined arms approach that requires and uses speed for some aspects. Other times Sabatouge, Stealth, Executions, Corruption and even total war are all aspects of the way Night Lords fight.

The fluff had them making use of Raptor cults (These are not normally Night Lords but instead troops from various forces who come together for payment of some form from their service) The Night Lords often had deals with them to provide larger numbers of cults to allow a portion of their attack to be lightning quick and cause terror. They would then move onto other means.

This all boils down to not actually using a large number of Raptors except in rare cases and only for short periods. This is IMO the biggest flaw we got with the 3.5 codex. Most people seem to think these 10,000 year old legions have one and only one style of war and demand this be made possible again and again yet they were in reality a multi-arms force capable of a fighting a series of different types of wars.

Lord Gabranth
29-03-2011, 16:40
So the fluff says "The Night Lords are skilled raiders and make exellent use of both Chaos Space Marine Bikes and Raptors"

So if the fluff says it then its cannon right? Or do we all just pick and choose what fluff to believe?

Bryan
29-03-2011, 16:44
No thats called taking what tiny fluff GW used to justify legions in the 3.5 codex. If you wanna whine because thats what it says go ahead. Until then people who play or want to play "real" Night Lords will continue to use an army that actually works and makes sense not some boiled down sentence.

Lord Damocles
29-03-2011, 16:51
So the fluff says "The Night Lords are skilled raiders and make exellent use of both Chaos Space Marine Bikes and Raptors"

So if the fluff says it then its cannon right? Or do we all just pick and choose what fluff to believe?
Although note that making use of something (Raptors) isn't necessarily equivalent to making [near] exclusive use of something.


Also, strangely, I've never seen a Night Lords player/army which even *includes* bikes, much less taking multiples of them...:shifty:
Perhaps bikes just aren't fluffy enough :p

Lord Gabranth
29-03-2011, 16:52
What other fluff is out there on the NL that states otherwise? Thats the question. If what little is there in the codex is all there is out there on the NL then what is the problem running an army heavy on the Raptors? And if there is any other fluff that says that NL dont use Raptors heavily then I will recant my previous statements, but I havent seen any during my years of playing that contridict the little fluff that exists in the 3.5 codex

Lord Gabranth
29-03-2011, 16:55
Although note that making use of something (Raptors) isn't necessarily equivalent to making [near] exclusive use of something.


Also, strangely, I've never seen a Night Lords player/army which even *includes* bikes, much less taking multiples of them...:shifty:
Perhaps bikes just aren't fluffy enough :p

Never meant to say exclusive use of them and sorry if I came off that way. But to me, Raptors seem to be a staple of a NL army, just like heavy support seems to be a staple of any Iron Warriors army

Bonzai
29-03-2011, 17:40
Lol, I am working on a Nighlord (Blood Angels) list that is almost entirely composed of bikes and raptors (assault marines). Only exception are some chosen with raptor packs (sanguinary guard), and a dreadnaught (furioso) in a dreadclaw (drop pod). I really wish that I could run both in the chaos codex. Having the raptors deep striking off of bikes with icons would be great.

Yeah, I know Night Lords aren't only bikes and raptors aren't the only tools they use. However they were the first to make use of raptors, and favore mobile elements for hit and run warfare.

Lord Gabranth
29-03-2011, 17:42
Yeah, I know Night Lords aren't only bikes and raptors aren't the only tools they use. However they were the first to make use of raptors, and favore mobile elements for hit and run warfare.

Exactly what I was trying to say

DuskRaider
29-03-2011, 18:39
It comes from Soul Hunter. Awesome book, easily my favorite from Black Library... However, people take the formation of a couple Companies and make it the status quo for all Night Lords. Do Night Lords make extensive use of Raptors? Yes, yes they do. Raptors find their origin in the Night Lords Legion, I'm sure a large majority of Raptors selling their services these days are Night Lords.
A large majority of the Legion would, in fact, be rank and file Marines. It's not the type of Marine that makes Night Lords special, per say, as much as it is their MO. Lightning raids, guerilla warfare, sabotage, and psychological terror describe Night Lords to a T. Be it strategic strikes on high profile targets to destroy morale, butchering enemies and leaving them for all to see, or just dropping straight into the enemy like a giant iron fist. So really, if you want to run a Raptor-heavy Night Lords army, you're fine fluff wise.

totgeboren
29-03-2011, 18:52
No thats called taking what tiny fluff GW used to justify legions in the 3.5 codex. If you wanna whine because thats what it says go ahead. Until then people who play or want to play "real" Night Lords will continue to use an army that actually works and makes sense not some boiled down sentence.

Well, to be honest I though the fluff for the Raptors was always stupid.

Does anyone really think the jump-pack equipped squads of say the Word Bearers or the Alpha Legion would just pack up their things and leave?

I can just picture it, a Word Bearer Assault-captain saying:
"Sorry Lorgar, Kor Phaedorn and Erebus. I want to fly around willy-nilly and fight for profit instead. All those centuries of fanatical religious devotion was just for fun. No hard feeling right?"

They would be executed on the spot if they tried to leave the legion.

My Raptors are 100% Word Bearers, and fight because of loyalty and religious zeal.

And come on, World Eater Assault marines, how cool would that be?

Easy E
29-03-2011, 19:00
Well, to be honest I though the fluff for the Raptors was always stupid.

Does anyone really think the jump-pack equipped squads of say the Word Bearers or the Alpha Legion would just pack up their things and leave?

They would be executed on the spot if they tried to leave the legion.

And come on, World Eater Assault marines, how cool would that be?

This! 1,000 times this.

Also, if you want Raptors in your army; fine take Raptors. However, remember that NO army is composed of a single unit type exclusively.

Even Heavy Weapon oriented Iron Warriors have basic Iron Warrior squads in it.

Draconis
29-03-2011, 20:08
Because the Night Lords doctrine isn't ZOMG RAPTORS!!!!

It is a combined arms approach that requires and uses speed for some aspects. Other times Sabatouge, Stealth, Executions, Corruption and even total war are all aspects of the way Night Lords fight.

The fluff had them making use of Raptor cults (These are not normally Night Lords but instead troops from various forces who come together for payment of some form from their service) The Night Lords often had deals with them to provide larger numbers of cults to allow a portion of their attack to be lightning quick and cause terror. They would then move onto other means.

This all boils down to not actually using a large number of Raptors except in rare cases and only for short periods. This is IMO the biggest flaw we got with the 3.5 codex. Most people seem to think these 10,000 year old legions have one and only one style of war and demand this be made possible again and again yet they were in reality a multi-arms force capable of a fighting a series of different types of wars.

Ever read the novel Lord of the Night? Yeah, they have a whole wing of their legion as raptors. And this one is the Talon Master... NL run off of speed and terror. They are ambushers and skirmishers mostly. Terror tactics. Read the fluff on their Primarch and you'll see what I mean.

Although agreed, they do have rank and file. Every legion will. But they do make extensive use of them.

Sir_Turalyon
29-03-2011, 23:42
What other fluff is out there on the NL that states otherwise? Thats the question. If what little is there in the codex is all there is out there on the NL then what is the problem running an army heavy on the Raptors? And if there is any other fluff that says that NL dont use Raptors heavily then I will recant my previous statements, but I havent seen any during my years of playing that contridict the little fluff that exists in the 3.5 codex

Index Astrates:Night Lords, the source others have been diluting from. While the use of Raptors was one of elements of Night Lords warfare, there were others like communication distruption, psychological warfare, combined arms, stealth and crossfire from previously infiltrated units (all with rules). The 3.5 codex took the least interesting elements (namely OMZG RAPTORS!) which dominate Night Lords background ever since.