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kyussinchains
29-03-2011, 18:35
So, I'm thinking of getting back into 40k and despite my intense love of blood angels, the sheer number of space marine armies out there puts me off playing them. I like the kaskrin storm troopers and was wondering about the feasibility of taking an entire force of them... Would it be an effective force? Or would it be too powerful or limited? I'd appreciate some suggestions for sample builds, cheers!

NixonAsADaemonPrince
29-03-2011, 18:41
Well, as you can't take Stormtroopers as troops, I'm not sure how you are going to it ;).

For my suggestion for a Counts As though, I'd say using them as Veterans with Carapace armour and plenty of air support. Pretty powerful to boot as well.

Dark Primus
29-03-2011, 19:45
My advice is use Veterans and Stormtroopers.

Lord Cook
29-03-2011, 20:31
Storm Troopers are laughably bad. As in being simultaneously horrendously overcosted and underpowered. Creating an army that even includes just two or three units of them will be extremely difficult.

As suggested, you can use Veteran squads with carapace armour to provide the rules behind your Storm Trooper models. Their abilities are similar.

LonelyPath
29-03-2011, 20:51
Lord Cook says it all with the "overcosted and underpowered". That said though, if you want to run with them coz you like the models, then do so. Just take veterans as troops or use Veterans as ST as also already mentioned ;)

dragonet111
29-03-2011, 20:53
Lord Cook says it all with the "overcosted and underpowered". That said though, if you want to run with them coz you like the models, then do so. Just take veterans as troops or use Veterans as ST as also already mentioned ;)

Yes and this is very sad because I really like Storm Trooper.

SgtTaters
29-03-2011, 21:32
So, I'm thinking of getting back into 40k and despite my intense love of blood angels, the sheer number of space marine armies out there puts me off playing them. I like the kaskrin storm troopers and was wondering about the feasibility of taking an entire force of them... Would it be an effective force? Or would it be too powerful or limited? I'd appreciate some suggestions for sample builds, cheers!

Generally carapace is considered an overpriced upgrade and stormtroopers overpriced elite choices.

For the sake of this thread though, there is another option you have.

C:GK, using the special character Inquisitor Coteaz.

a warrior henchman has guardsman stats (bs3) but ld8
he comes with a laspistol+ccw but can upgrade to...
-boltgun
-storm bolter
-hotshot lasgun
can upgrade to carapace armor. power armor too but it's badly priced.

and can take 0-3 melta, plasma, flamers
can ride in chimera, rhino, or razorback (which can take s7 assault cannons)

There's more variety in weapon choice, especially with boltguns and stormbolters, you may consider this for your "all carapace armor" army.

Killgore
29-03-2011, 22:23
Generally carapace is considered an overpriced upgrade and stormtroopers overpriced elite choices.

For the sake of this thread though, there is another option you have.

C:GK, using the special character Inquisitor Coteaz.

a warrior henchman has guardsman stats (bs3) but ld8
he comes with a laspistol+ccw but can upgrade to...
-boltgun
-storm bolter
-hotshot lasgun
can upgrade to carapace armor. power armor too but it's badly priced.

and can take 0-3 melta, plasma, flamers
can ride in chimera, rhino, or razorback (which can take s7 assault cannons)

There's more variety in weapon choice, especially with boltguns and stormbolters, you may consider this for your "all carapace armor" army.


Agreed

The choice of weaponry and armour types can lead to interesting Storm Trooper style squads :) I look forward to making combat teams using the Henchmen rules, dont forget options for Heavy Weapon troopers using the Combat servitor henchmen

LonelyPath
29-03-2011, 23:57
Yes and this is very sad because I really like Storm Trooper.

I really like the models myself, mine will likely become =I= henchmen squads as well.

minionboy
30-03-2011, 01:12
Use them as veterans and swap their weapons, that should work just fine. Using them as Inq henchmen isn't going to be a great long term strategy to having a fun and interesting army, unless you want to add GK too.

Eldartank
30-03-2011, 04:16
Generally carapace is considered an overpriced upgrade and stormtroopers overpriced elite choices.

For the sake of this thread though, there is another option you have.

C:GK, using the special character Inquisitor Coteaz.

a warrior henchman has guardsman stats (bs3) but ld8
he comes with a laspistol+ccw but can upgrade to...
-boltgun
-storm bolter
-hotshot lasgun
can upgrade to carapace armor. power armor too but it's badly priced.

and can take 0-3 melta, plasma, flamers
can ride in chimera, rhino, or razorback (which can take s7 assault cannons)

There's more variety in weapon choice, especially with boltguns and stormbolters, you may consider this for your "all carapace armor" army.

That almost sounds like you can make Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with Hotshot Lasguns... How many of these henchmen can you have with Coteaz? Several squads, or just a certain amount as Coteaz' retinue?

ShodansOwn
30-03-2011, 08:55
Wow, I never knew there was so much hate for the current Stormtroopers. I love them, both aesthetically and on the table. I agree they're expensive, but they always seem to perform for me...

If you wanted to stick with the IG codex, you can give all your HQ squads Carapace as well. If you give the Command squad bodyguards or other additional members, they get Carapace for free as is it a single cost for the whole squad. As was already said, use Vets with Carapace to fill in the troop slots, deep-strike all your ST squads and you'll have a decent strike force.

Maybe its because I play for fun, and the meta-opinions tend to make me a little defiant in list-building, but I fully support your idea. I think it'll be fun, it'll perform fairly well as long as you're prepared to fight for your wins.

I would (will?) run this style list if I could get a lot of Kasrkin for cheap. As it is they're $50 per squad :s I would put them in my top 3 fav models in 40k, possibly top 1.

PS

That almost sounds like you can make Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with Hotshot Lasguns...

The hotshots are AWESOME, but they're still just S3. Without the BS4 of the Stormtroopers, I dont think they would cut it. I havent run the math, but I get the feeling they would kill noticeably less stuff. It would have been nice if they represented the targeters from the old Hellguns by say, rerolling 1's to hit or something like that.

Zweischneid
30-03-2011, 09:03
So, I'm thinking of getting back into 40k and despite my intense love of blood angels, the sheer number of space marine armies out there puts me off playing them. I like the kaskrin storm troopers and was wondering about the feasibility of taking an entire force of them... Would it be an effective force? Or would it be too powerful or limited? I'd appreciate some suggestions for sample builds, cheers!

Seriously, if your "intense love" lies with the Blood Angels, play Blood Angels.

Starting a pricy, painting-intensive metal-army that your heart isn't truly behind just so you can be different is a sure-fire way to hobby burnout. If you need to be different, try something more or less unusual with the Blood Angels that captures your "intense love" .. Golden Army, DeathCompany army, Bikers, I dunno....

Just my 2 cents of course.

kyussinchains
30-03-2011, 10:34
Seriously, if your "intense love" lies with the Blood Angels, play Blood Angels.

Starting a pricy, painting-intensive metal-army that your heart isn't truly behind just so you can be different is a sure-fire way to hobby burnout. If you need to be different, try something more or less unusual with the Blood Angels that captures your "intense love" .. Golden Army, DeathCompany army, Bikers, I dunno....

Just my 2 cents of course.

I see where you're coming from, but I just can't bring myself to buy another sm army, I had space wolves and blood angels back in the rogue trader days and over half the locals play marines. I'm getting a bit bored of lots of sm vs sm games, it doesn't sit right with me....

I've always loved guard, and the idea of units of elite guard in valkyries storming buildings without hundreds of tanks and artillery on the table really appeals to me....

I already play skaven in wfb so i'm not scared of a huge painting challenge...

Godzooky
30-03-2011, 10:46
a warrior henchman has guardsman stats (bs3) but ld8
he comes with a laspistol+ccw but can upgrade to...
-boltgun
-storm bolter
-hotshot lasgun
can upgrade to carapace armor. power armor too but it's badly priced.

Power armour???!!!

*Giggles excitedly*

For mankind
30-03-2011, 11:06
I've always loved guard, and the idea of units of elite guard in valkyries storming buildings without hundreds of tanks and artillery on the table really appeals to me....



If you want the flying elite you should give the Imperial Armour Lists a try.
I myself Play a list based on the list out of IA Vol. 8 Raid on Kastorel-Novem.

It contains 3 Valkyries, 3 Vendettas and a Vulture, and one Comand squad (4+ armor upgrade) 4 Squads of veterans (4+ armor) and three squads of Storm Troopers, plus a special long range scanner team.

It is not as powerfull as some builds out of the regular guard dex, but it definitly looks nice to have 7 Flyers on the tabel, and deep striking units all around, + some special equitment the regular guard dosen't have, like one use granade lunchers attached to lasguns on the veterans.

And after you learned to play with it, you can at least get a draw even against the most powerfull lists around, if dice are on your side you can even win.

And as much as I love Storm Troopers, and play them very often, i have to admit, they are crap, the only efficent ways I found to use them is to make a squad of five two melta guns, and then prices depp striking next to a big tank, ordering them to blow it up, forget about them, or (!very expensiv!) ten guys two plasmaguns, and ordering them to shoot monsterous creatures.
Against deamon princes and carnifes or the like they are at least useabel.

Chaos Undecided
30-03-2011, 11:52
To be fair to the stormtroopers the small melta (or similar high damage weapon type) suicide squad seems to be a similar fate for alot of elite choices that have the capability in todays 40K

SgtTaters
30-03-2011, 14:57
That almost sounds like you can make Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with Hotshot Lasguns... How many of these henchmen can you have with Coteaz? Several squads, or just a certain amount as Coteaz' retinue?

It's up to debate the exact numbers (there is a wording issue on whether or not they take up troop slots with Coteaz, that is all that needs to be said and there are many long debate strings over this), but the simple answer is that you can field squads of 3-12 men that act independent of Coteaz. Separate squads, not retinue.



The hotshots are AWESOME, but they're still just S3. Without the BS4 of the Stormtroopers, I dont think they would cut it. I havent run the math, but I get the feeling they would kill noticeably less stuff.
Let's do a thorough comparison then. The advantages the IG Stormtrooper has over an Inquisitorial stormtrooper (Warrior Acolyte) is...
higher bs by 1, ccw and pistol with his gun, frag, krak grenades. Plus special deployment options to choose from, nice. He costs more than a space marine though so feels overpriced for t3 4+.

the =I= stormtrooper (warrior acolyte with carapace and hotshot) comes out to be 3 points cheaper. His ld8 is an advantage but the IGST get sergeants anyways. =I=ST's also get special weapons for cheaper as IGSTs don't get discounted for replacing their expensive hotshots. An =I=ST with a plasmagun and carapace is only 2pts more expensive than an un-upgraded IGST, and 17pts cheaper than an IGST with a plasma gun! You can almost get two plasma guns for the price IGST pay for one.
They can also take three of 'em. They may also take meltabombs, giving a mighty anti-armor assault potential.
Being scoring troops is also useful.


and comparing the =I=ST (Warrior Acolyte) to IGVet Grenadiers...
The IG vets are 3pts cheaper (but only have regular lasguns), have frag and krak grenades and bs4. They also have a sgt providing ld8

=I=ST gets their plasma gun 7pts cheaper, but their meltagun is only 2pts cheaper. If you give them boltguns instead of hotshots though they come out to be 1pt cheaper than IGVets.


another thing with the Inquisitorial list is, you can begin fielding things that don't 'officially exist' in past armylists. Do you want stormtroopers with a pack of cyber-hounds? Then stick some acro-flagellants in. Do you want close assault storm troopers, armed with storm shields and shock mauls? Then use the Crusaders option. Or simply the option of boltguns and stormbolters, it's there.

Lord Cook
30-03-2011, 19:08
Maybe its because I play for fun, and the meta-opinions tend to make me a little defiant in list-building, but I fully support your idea. I think it'll be fun, it'll perform fairly well as long as you're prepared to fight for your wins.

We all play for fun, and we all have to fight hard for our wins. Some of us also still struggle hard to build original and interesting lists.

Storm Troopers are still terrible. They're only good if your opponent is also willing to take terrible units to balance things out. Which is fine, by the way, assuming you both agree in advance.


Power armour???!!!

*Giggles excitedly*

Before you get too excited, a henchman in power armour is exactly the same as a Ld8 Guardsman in power armour. For 14 points a model. Or you could spend 15 points a model for Crusaders and get the exact same thing, but with a power weapon and convert that 3+ armour save to a 3+ invulnerable save. You decide. ;)

razormasticator
30-03-2011, 19:20
Storm Troopers Ap 3 is useful against nids. I saw a Bat-rep recently where they actually did well against nids. I belive it was a BOLS youtube bat rep.

Col. Dash
30-03-2011, 19:34
I use usually two squads, occassionally 3. I quite like them and they rarely fail me for what I need them for. The air cav method with a couple squads DSing, and carapace vets in aircraft make for a great combo.

Godzooky
30-03-2011, 19:36
Before you get too excited, a henchman in power armour is exactly the same as a Ld8 Guardsman in power armour. For 14 points a model. Or you could spend 15 points a model for Crusaders and get the exact same thing, but with a power weapon and convert that 3+ armour save to a 3+ invulnerable save. You decide. ;)

*Considers*

*Still giggles, but less excitedly this time*

I've already decided on pariah legs and Elysian respirator helmet for my first test model. Just gotta decide on the rest. :)

kyussinchains
30-03-2011, 20:09
ok, so I'm looking at a mixture of Stormtroopers and Veterans with carapace armour then....

any suggestions for a sample build? or what stuff I should pick up to start with?

I've not played 40k since 2nd edition and the current edition seems very different, and dare I say it, more tactical.... more than WFB in 8th edition IMO, there are certainly more in-depth tactics articles for 40k in WD anyway....

I love the direct only commander with the sword and bionic eye, and I also think the regimental advisors are excellent models, are they worthwhile game-wise?

What about commissars (love the background of these guys and them possibly shooting the general is a nice touch!) psykers, techpriests and the rest?

I need some serious schooling as I've got the rulebook, but haven't played a game yet, so might have missed some of the more subtle or technical parts of the game......

jason_sation
30-03-2011, 22:51
Kasrkins are still my favorite models. I'd love to field a ton of them in an army. I play Guard but may get the Grey Knights book just to do a Kasrkin henchman/Assassin army. I might not win all the time, but I'll look cool losing!

Eldartank
31-03-2011, 03:01
I just got a good long look at the new Grey Knights codex today. If you have Inquisitor Coteaz in your army, then you can take multiple Inquisitorial Henchmen squads without having a corresponding Inquisitor, AND they count as Troops (if you have Coteaz). That means I can still use all those nicely-painted Inquisitorial Stormtrooper models I have! AND I can add in some other really nice options. So, I may not have all that uber-awesomeness of an army that is all Grey Knights, but I can field a cool-looking army that is characterful. And I do have a few painted Grey Knights and Grey Knight Terminators that I can have in my army.

Hmmm.... Since power-armored Grey Knights AND Grey Knight Terminators are Troops, I could field an army that, other than the required HQ, is nothing but Troops. An interesting concept, even if it is maybe a bit underpowered...

;)

Eldartank
31-03-2011, 03:05
Kasrkins are still my favorite models. I'd love to field a ton of them in an army. I play Guard but may get the Grey Knights book just to do a Kasrkin henchman/Assassin army. I might not win all the time, but I'll look cool losing!

After seeing the GK codex, I was thinking the same thing. ;) If you take Inquisitor Coteaz in your army, you can effectively have a whole lot of squads of your Kasrkins, because Inquisitorial Henchmen squads count as Troops. And one of the options for equipping the henchmen squads would effectively make them Stormtroopers with a BS of 3, but some slightly better wargear options.

CushionRide
31-03-2011, 04:46
my original guard lists usually ran 2 company command squads in centaurs(FW) 2 Vet squads in chimeras, an ogryn squad in a chimera with some support vehicles, but mind you my imp guard is pretty hodge-podge right now, and not alot of time was spent orginizing it as an effective force :P pitty

ShodansOwn
01-04-2011, 08:25
Let's do a thorough comparison then. .

I think all your points were valid, but personally I'll pay the extra points for the +1 BS, Deepstriking, Spec.Ops and the ability to receive Orders.

They are expensive...compared to the Warrior Acolytes. But hopefully the codex was written in a way that the points balance for the IG codex, and the bonuses I listed justify the price.