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View Full Version : New to High Elves, What to do next?



Crimson Templar
30-03-2011, 02:20
After staring at the box for way too long I bought The Island of Blood and got a second set of elves. The combined boxes yielded the following.

17 SeaGuard with full command

17 Swordmasters with full command

2 units of 5 Reavers

1 Mage

I want to expand to 2000 points and the above sits at less than 1000 with my current options. What units would help round this out to 2000 points keeping in mind I will add the lord on griffin to bring it to 2500. i am also newer to warhammer so am not super familiar with all of the rules but i do own them and the HE army book.

Thanks

Bloody Nunchucks
30-03-2011, 03:12
buy 20 phoenix guard and then choose between white lions and swordmasters and buy 21 of them. then buy two eagles.

ariochhelldrake
30-03-2011, 03:17
Good suggestions so far lol Im going to suggest Teclis before anyone else does.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
30-03-2011, 03:18
After staring at the box for way too long I bought The Island of Blood and got a second set of elves. The combined boxes yielded the following.

17 SeaGuard with full command

17 Swordmasters with full command

2 units of 5 Reavers

1 Mage

I want to expand to 2000 points and the above sits at less than 1000 with my current options. What units would help round this out to 2000 points keeping in mind I will add the lord on griffin to bring it to 2500. i am also newer to warhammer so am not super familiar with all of the rules but i do own them and the HE army book.

Thanks

You'll need to fill out your core requirements first so if you're planning on playing at 2500 pts. you'll need 625 pts. worth of Core.

Since you have a decent amount of LSG I'd probably try to expand that with more plastic/metal LSG and get the numbers up to 45 then split that into a 25 & 20 man units with full commands.

Next I'd invest in some elite unit choices like White Lions, Phoenix Guard, & Dragon Princes (about 900 pts. worth)

Then maybe to round out the force purchase the plastic prince/noble box set to make a battle standard bearer (BSB) and a few Great Eagles.

I hope that helps.

Crimson Templar
30-03-2011, 18:45
I noticed no one is recommending archers or spearmen. Any reason for this? Are bolt throwers anygood or are great eagles just that much better? How about silverhelms, I may have an oportunity to pick up some cheap, but are they any good?

Ultimate Life Form
30-03-2011, 18:55
The reason no one recommend Archers or Spearmen is because they suck. All HE Core suck, but sadly you're required to take them. Lothern Sea Guard is simply the easiest way to meet these requirements, but you can take others as well.


I'm in the same boat as you btw with 2 IoB boxes, and to expand to 1000 points I chose Dragon Princes and a Bolt Thrower. The general opinion is that Silver Helms are completely worthless in this book as Dragon Princes are far superior in each and every way for just a few points extra (and Cavalry has issues in 8th to begin with). If they were Core, like they used to be, they would be a whole lot more useful...

gogs78
30-03-2011, 19:08
I noticed no one is recommending archers or spearmen. Any reason for this? Are bolt throwers anygood or are great eagles just that much better? How about silverhelms, I may have an oportunity to pick up some cheap, but are they any good?

Spearmen are fine for core, cheapest elves we can get and our best option if we want to go with really big units. Although a lot of people, myself included like seaguard as they are involved in the fight when not in cc and stand and shoot before combat is a nice bonus as well.

Personally dont like archers that much but i think they definately have uses, the fact there is now reasons to field them in larger units means they cant get taken out by pesky light cav etc so easily anymore!

Bolt throwers are not as good now because of the new rules for war machines and the "to wound" chart. Meaning it only takes 2 rolls of 6 from any shooting at all and your toast!

Great eagles are fantastic, march blocking hardly exists but they are still as good as ever at war machine hunting, re-directing, mage killing etc. Theres a whole load of tactics for then on asur.org.

Silverhelms are pretty useless to be honest. Dragon princes can do everything much better for a few extra points and with the well documented weaknesses with cavalry in this edition we are better off sticking with our elite infantry really! Not to say Dragon princes arent worth taking! They are worth it for the models alone!

Hope some of that rambling helps a bit!

D'Haran
30-03-2011, 19:11
They don't suck, they're just overpriced when compared with out special choices, and all the other armies core. Thus nobody will advise you to buy core to do more than fill out the minimum requirement (although I prefer fielding large amounts of spearmen to seaguard since I get more bodies).

RBT are pretty junky since they effectively only have 2 wounds now, in fact we don't have a good rare choice, eagles are nice but you don't need more than 1 per 1000 points.

Silver Helms really do suck compared with Dragon Princes, few ppl take cav, nobody takes silver helms. Thus they're uber cheap, but if you want to say convert them to DP's it's a cheap way to go.

Memnos
30-03-2011, 19:32
Most people don't take cavalry because they're difficult to use. Those who do usually combine it with a leadership bomb/assassination list to kill the BSB and lower steadfast. It isn't easy and isn't recommended for beginners, but it's both possible and effective.

The list building advice you get here will be good and effective against other players. Accept the advice, learn to play with the list and then promptly forget the advice and choose the units you like and figure out how they work.

b4z
30-03-2011, 21:35
After staring at the box for way too long I bought The Island of Blood and got a second set of elves. The combined boxes yielded the following.

17 SeaGuard with full command

17 Swordmasters with full command

2 units of 5 Reavers

1 Mage

I want to expand to 2000 points and the above sits at less than 1000 with my current options. What units would help round this out to 2000 points keeping in mind I will add the lord on griffin to bring it to 2500. i am also newer to warhammer so am not super familiar with all of the rules but i do own them and the HE army book.

Thanks
I think the best way to answer your question is to provide you with a fairly competetive HE list at 2000pts:

Lords: [You NEED a Level 4 Wizard in 8th Edition]
Archmage, Level 4, [+Arcane Item] [+Ward Save]

Heroes: [You NEED a BSB in 8th Edition]
Noble, Battle Standard Bearer, Great Weapon, [Armour] Armour of Caledor, [Ward Save/equiv] Guardian Phoenix/Dawnstone

Core: [ALWAYS spend absolute minimum on Core with High Elves since they are the weakness of our Army]
25 Spearmen Full Command
25 Spearmen Full Command [or] 12 Archers Musician + 12 Archers Musician

Special: [Spend Most/All of your 50% 1000pt allowance]
[5x4] 19 Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Banner of Sorcery [Archmage goes here]
[7x3] 20 White Lions, Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame [Noble BSB goes here]
5 Dragon Princes, Musician [or] [6x2] 12 Sword Masters, Musician

Rare:
2-4 Great Eagles

The following is VERY sound advice:

[There is a common consensus that Lothern Sea Guard don't really work, as they are trying to be both Spearmen and Archer, and although on paper that seems cool, it turns out not.]
So... Use your Lothern Sea Guard as your Spearmen. That is what i do. Since they are beautiful models and are aesthetically in scale with all of the new High Elf models. And no one cares as long as you tell them they are Spearmen not Lothern Sea Guard at the beginning of the game.

Do NOT buy more Swordmasters. I made that mistake. I have 4 sets of IOB Swordmasters and i rarely use them. Swordmasters work best in small support units. 12 [6x2] or 14 [7x2] kept cheap with just a musician for Swift Reform.

Do NOT buy more Ellyrian Reavers. Proxy them for Dragon Princes in your early games. Get a feel for a supporting unit of Flanking Cavalry.

Proxy your 2 Griffons for Great Eagles in your early games. Get a feel for these infinitely useful support units.

Proxy your Swordmaster Bladelord as your Noble BSB.

BUY a box or two of White Lions, they are excellent. You will come to LOVE Strength 6 ASF and 3+ Armour Save from shooting. 50 :cries:

Buy a box or two of Phoenix Guard, they are excellent. You will come to LOVE 4+ Ward Save. 50 :cries:

Buy a box of Dragon Princes, they are excellent. 18 :)

Get 2-4 more Island Of Blood Lothern Seaguard from eBay, competetive prices means you can get 10 for about 11-13 now. :)
A total of 6 IOB Seaguard sets is all you will need. It gives you enough for 2 x 25 Spearmen blocks.
[10+8+8 and 10+8+8 discounting duplicate Champion and Musician models]

Do this because the old High Elves Spearmen models are not only disproportionately smaller than the new High Elves but they are also pretty ugly with their oversized hands and dont fit the new range...

All of that lot will set you back 166 [undiscounted]

And finally... visit www.Ulthuan.net/forum to get High Elves centric advice and information...

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
31-03-2011, 05:04
I noticed no one is recommending archers or spearmen. Any reason for this? Are bolt throwers anygood or are great eagles just that much better? How about silverhelms, I may have an oportunity to pick up some cheap, but are they any good?

Actually my recommendation was for the fastest way to fill out your core requirements. Spearmen & Archers are useful as well it just that there are times when having Lothern Seaguard might be more useful than fielding just Spearmen and Archers alone. For example if fighting against horde formations that aren't heavily armored, average toughness, & equipped with shooting weapons the LSG would fare better in those situations that just spearmen and/or archers on their own.

Silver Helms are hardly ever worth using competitively (I would actually prefer Ellryian Reavers over Silver Helms if given the choice). Dragon Princes do what they do better for a slight increase in cost.

grhino
31-03-2011, 08:56
Guys seriously... I dont know what you do with HE spearmen, but they are great! You get a ********* of attacks if you use the right unit size (I like 6x4 for 25 attacks, that you can reform into 5x4 when you take some wounds, for smaller battles - up to 2000 points) and they are the cheapest yet effective way to put numbers on the board. I agree that elite infantry is where the true scariness of a HE army lies, but the core is decent! (apart from archers, which should do nothing more than fulfilling a support role- taking the last wound of that 1-wound left chariot/monster, getting rid of that enemy rank bonus, eliminating flankers/flyers!).

Bloody Nunchucks
31-03-2011, 10:13
ok so first of all, swordmasters are awesome, you just have to protect them. and i think that silver helms do have a place, the noble/prince bus. buying a prince, then giving him the star lance and talism of loec makes him able to kill pretty much any character. even a noble can do it. then the +3 S weapon from the rulebook and when you charge with 8 silverhelms you have 8 S5 attacks, 7 S7 attacks, 4 of which are ignoring armour. and if you challange the enemy wizard and kill him thats even better.

HE core do suck, for their price. if spearmen were 7 points and 9 or 10 then they would be amazing, all they do right now though is suck points away from our much much better elite infantry

Pulstar
31-03-2011, 12:08
B4z has it right.

Lords - The Archmage is better then the prince. Lore of Shadow and Life but work well with the HE army.

Hero - A BSB is needed in 8th. The standard gear kit (GW, AoC, GP) gives him 2+ AS and a 5++ ward save for 168 points. A level 2 mage is also a good in this spot. Let's you take a second lore.

Core - Keep to the min points you need. This is more due to the fact that our special are so good then anything else.

Special - Swordmasters/White Lions/Phonix Guard. These are the best part of the army list.

The White Lions as the best of blend of offense/defense of the group with Str 6/Stubborn combo. They will hurt what they hit and they are not going to run.

Swordmasters trade Str 6/Stubborn for Str 5/an extra attack and point of WS. Support them with a bit of Life magic and you will make anyone cry. (The tears of WoC players are delicious.)

PG are the best defensive troops of the three. Trading the great weapons for Halberd (str 4), a +4 ward save, a point of Init, and they cause fear. They are the anvil of the army list.

Not to be overlooked special choices are the Dragon Princes (think mounted SM with a 2+ AS) and the chariots, which can add some punch to list that don't have a lot of SM/WL.

The Reavers and the Silver Helms have their uses, but are over shadowed by Eagles and DP who fill the same roles, but do it better.

Rare - The Eagle wins over the Bolt Thrower because of cost and the armies need to silence the other guys war machines quickly.

Overall, HE melee is some of the best in WHFB, while it's shooting is only average. When building a list think Magic+Elite Infantry and you should do well.

grhino
01-04-2011, 07:59
ok so first of all, swordmasters are awesome, you just have to protect them. and i think that silver helms do have a place, the noble/prince bus. buying a prince, then giving him the star lance and talism of loec makes him able to kill pretty much any character. even a noble can do it. then the +3 S weapon from the rulebook and when you charge with 8 silverhelms you have 8 S5 attacks, 7 S7 attacks, 4 of which are ignoring armour. and if you challange the enemy wizard and kill him thats even better.

The prince would have to carry the +3S thing, so that's not ignoring armour saves. Only the noble can carry only the star lance (<50 points) and this ignores armour saves on the charge only (which gives you 3 armour ignoring attacks). Deadly combo, but well expensive.

Was thinking about it and a Star Dragon riding Lord can do about the same amount of damage if not more, is faster and flying and has a very potent breath attack as well. Why not just take one of these instead? Also, he has nearly the same amount of wounds @ higher toughness! Army would have to be 2500 points though...

grhino
01-04-2011, 08:03
Get 2-4 more Island Of Blood Lothern Seaguard from eBay, competetive prices means you can get 10 for about 11-13 now. :)

You've overpaid... well timed yet while taking your time on bidding will get you them much cheaper! I got a HE full set for 20 quid and LSG unit for 8 :D

Crimson Templar
01-04-2011, 17:44
I was confused a bit earlier until Ire-read the rules and now realize that core needs to be 25% of the army. Kind of like 2nd ed 40k. OK so my sea guard is currently at 246 points, which is fail for a 1000 point list (but mine is only 970 right now) At this points level, would a unit of 15 and a unit of 12 Seaguard be ok, or should I expand the first one up to 24 by adding 7 more sea guard? This would get the unit cost up to 330 with out a standard. That was the next question, is this a good place to place a warbanner?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
02-04-2011, 03:08
I was confused a bit earlier until Ire-read the rules and now realize that core needs to be 25% of the army. Kind of like 2nd ed 40k. OK so my sea guard is currently at 246 points, which is fail for a 1000 point list (but mine is only 970 right now) At this points level, would a unit of 15 and a unit of 12 Seaguard be ok, or should I expand the first one up to 24 by adding 7 more sea guard? This would get the unit cost up to 330 with out a standard. That was the next question, is this a good place to place a warbanner?

One larger group would be better than two smaller ones in this edition. I can think of at least 3 other banners to use with the LSG over the Warbanner (Banner of Eternal Flame for flaming attacks with both shooting & close combat weapons, Banner of Swiftness for extra +1 movement, or Standard of Leadership for Mindrazor goodness).

Crimson Templar
03-04-2011, 21:54
Thank you all. I am going to start getting some of these guys painted and see how they work on the table and will be back for more advice later.

Thanks again.

b4z
03-04-2011, 21:59
You've overpaid... well timed yet while taking your time on bidding will get you them much cheaper! I got a HE full set for 20 quid and LSG unit for 8 :D

bleeeeh... i bought them when IOB first came out... now the market is saturated... of course prices are lower.

Crimson Templar
09-05-2011, 19:50
Just to update on how the army is expanding. I was able to purchace 20 spearmen and 20 archers for $20 on ebay. The set also cam with the old metal chariot. I know I have a lot of core now, but it looks good to have a block of 20 spears with a standard, mus and champ next to my unit of 20 Sea Guard. I do not have command groups for the archers and I do not think it is needed. If I run them in two units of ten I can target different units if needed. I also remodeled one of the 5 man units of reavers to remove the spears, more or less just to make them different. i have not totaled it up yet but it now looks like....

Mage

20 seaguard, full command
20 spearmen, full command
10 archers
10 archers
5 reavers w/bows and spears
5 reavers w/bows
15 swordmasters, full command
Tiranoc chariot
Hero on griffin if I want to use him.

How is it looking now. If you could only add phoenix guard or white lions to this list, which would it be and why? I may just have enough funds to by 2 box sets to make one large unit.

Crimson Templar
10-05-2011, 02:37
Another question, I have my move trays set up for 5 wide units. Is there a better width to use now in 8th edition? I am still playing small practice games with my son, who is 10, so I am not tactically challenged.