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View Full Version : Are GK the answer to Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons?



Enigma6
30-03-2011, 13:03
Simple thought for all those who have wanted to do a pre-heresy thousand sons army but found that neither the C:SM or SM dex could provide a satisfactory reperasentation. Is the GK codex the aswer?

All the psykers and force weapons is certainly appropriate, and they would have been the legion most able to wipe the floor with deamons.

Naturally you'd have to restrict yourself from certain wargear, so Inquisition etc.

The only thing it's really hard to justift is all the storm bolters. You could model them with no guns at all and claim it as a psykic shooting attack, or that they use their powers to guide their shots, giving them the increased accuracy and allowing them to shoot on the move.

Has anyone thought of this? I'm not a mega TS fanatic myself so I doubt I'll end up trying it, but if I did want to portray them as close to the fluff as possible, this is certianly the way I would do it.

Zweischneid
30-03-2011, 13:05
Is there any 40K Codex that does (or should do) pre-Heresy?

If you wanna play 30K, just pick a fandex, or even write your own.

At the very least, it seems strangely uneven to go all-out on doing fluff-justification for some pre-Heresy or Heresy-era counts-as project only to run up against some Tau, Necrons or 40K (Chaos) Space Marines on the table.

Wishing
30-03-2011, 13:20
Excellent point, zweischneid. It's interesting how many people go into the whole historical thing, building armies meant for a different era, and then play them in standard games of 40k without taking any of the historical context into account.
I guess it's part of the overall mentality of 40k, which is that fluff is something you should use when building your army only - when actually playing people, fluff is ignored or explained away, so ultramarines will fight ultramarines in "training excercises" or whatnot.
It would be nice if more people played their games in fluff-related contexts, rather than the tournament-oriented "any army vs. any army" context.

shadowhawk2008
30-03-2011, 14:07
Simple thought for all those who have wanted to do a pre-heresy thousand sons army but found that neither the C:SM or SM dex could provide a satisfactory reperasentation. Is the GK codex the aswer?

All the psykers and force weapons is certainly appropriate, and they would have been the legion most able to wipe the floor with deamons.

Naturally you'd have to restrict yourself from certain wargear, so Inquisition etc.

The only thing it's really hard to justift is all the storm bolters. You could model them with no guns at all and claim it as a psykic shooting attack, or that they use their powers to guide their shots, giving them the increased accuracy and allowing them to shoot on the move.

Has anyone thought of this? I'm not a mega TS fanatic myself so I doubt I'll end up trying it, but if I did want to portray them as close to the fluff as possible, this is certianly the way I would do it.

Sure use the GK codex as pre-heresy Thousand Sons. Let's just be clear on a few things though. [I haven't read the GK codex so I can't be specific with these points but these apply to any pre-heresy astartes army].

1. You are not allowed the use of chaplains as the role of chaplains during the great crusade was to limit the power of the librarians.
2. No storm bolters. You can use them as twin-linked bolters though.
3. No dreadnoughts.
4. No Crusaders or Razors or Annihilator Preds.
5. No large quantities of artificer armour or master crafted weapons and such. Extremely limited.

Cry of the Wind
30-03-2011, 14:14
Why no Dreads or Master Crafting? If anything there would be more master crafted stuff in my opinion as you have lots of tech available before it was destroyed in the Heresy war. There are no chaplains in the GK codex so no problem there.

I think this Codex is the one to use for Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons as everyone gets powers and the different squad powers (i.e. Paladins, Purifiers and GKSS) can represent the different cults. Stormbolters...well just call it magic and be done with it.

shadowhawk2008
30-03-2011, 14:26
The reason no dreads because at best the crusade has gone on for two centuries. While there have no doubt been severe casualties, individual marines aren't as important then as they are now. At best I can see using 1-2 dreads max in an army even if it is 10000 points strong. But definitely no Venerable Dreads, there just hasn't been enough time. Not to mention that for any marine to be so important to a legion he would have had to be a veteran dating from at least the times of the Unification wars on Terra.

Extremely limited master-crafted gear because at best only the legion chapter masters would have access to these, while the line officers have to go into battle with whatever regular weapons and gear they are issued with. Consider it a case of today's chapter master being the equivalent of a legion's top officer like First Captain or Lord Commander. A captain today being the equivalent of a legion chapter master such as Astelan or the Word Bearer who commanded Argel Tal. And a sergeant today being the equivalent of a company captain then. There is of course a little overlap and this some exceptions but this is an era of legions not chapters.

I would have addressed the matter of the assault cannons too but the Thousand Sons in ATS appear to use assault cannons except they call them reaper autocannons because of something to do with the power of numerology or something.

Excessus
30-03-2011, 14:27
hmm, though there is no fluff to support the widespread forceweapons and stormbolters, amongst other things...

Sure, there were many sorcerers and a lot of marines had sorcerous abilities, but the bulk were still regular marines in terms of rules and such...

Hrogoff the Destructor
30-03-2011, 14:31
I am actually considering making a pre heresy Thousand Sons army to use with the new Grey Knights book. As a whole I think they make a pretty good match (otherwise I would just stick with my Grey Knight models).


1. You are not allowed the use of chaplains as the role of chaplains during the great crusade was to limit the power of the librarians.

Grey Knights don't get Chaplains.

Excessus
30-03-2011, 14:32
Dreads were used during the crusade, there was not any short supply of heroic soldiers who could be entombed in them after all, and they were a power to be reckoned with on the battlefield so the legions would most likely have a fair share of them...

shadowhawk2008
30-03-2011, 14:39
hmm, though there is no fluff to support the widespread forceweapons and stormbolters, amongst other things...

Sure, there were many sorcerers and a lot of marines had sorcerous abilities, but the bulk were still regular marines in terms of rules and such...

Librarians have so far only gotten short roles in the HH novels. The most prominent would be Zahariel (?) of the Dark Angels and his mentor, the Council of Nikaea and the Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons also used something called heqa staffs which functioned like force weapons I guess. Don't recall reading about storm bolters ever.


Grey Knights don't get Chaplains.

Read my disclaimer before the list.


Dreads were used during the crusade, there was not any short supply of heroic soldiers who could be entombed in them after all, and they were a power to be reckoned with on the battlefield so the legions would most likely have a fair share of them...

Except, a marine who is entombed within a Dreadnought shell does not only have to be a heroic brother but also has to be vitally important to the chapter. Someone like Loken deserves a dreadnought. Someone like a member of his second Vipus' Jocasta (?) squad doesn't even if he has killed an ork warboss.

Excessus
30-03-2011, 14:44
Librarians have so far only gotten short roles in the HH novels. The most prominent would be Zahariel (?) of the Dark Angels and his mentor, the Council of Nikaea and the Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons also used something called heqa staffs which functioned like force weapons I guess. Don't recall reading about storm bolters ever.
I believe that those weren't standard issue exactly...

Except, a marine who is entombed within a Dreadnought shell does not only have to be a heroic brother but also has to be vitally important to the chapter. Someone like Loken deserves a dreadnought. Someone like a member of his second Vipus' Jocasta (?) squad doesn't even if he has killed an ork warboss.I said "heroic", not "brother"
it was a big campaign with thousands of marines fighting battles, I bet there were a lot of captains, lieutenants, sergeants or otherwise prominent marine characters that bit the dust in the great crusade, worthy of being "dreadified"...

Achaylus72
30-03-2011, 14:48
The reason no dreads because at best the crusade has gone on for two centuries. While there have no doubt been severe casualties, individual marines aren't as important then as they are now. At best I can see using 1-2 dreads max in an army even if it is 10000 points strong. But definitely no Venerable Dreads, there just hasn't been enough time. Not to mention that for any marine to be so important to a legion he would have had to be a veteran dating from at least the times of the Unification wars on Terra.

Extremely limited master-crafted gear because at best only the legion chapter masters would have access to these, while the line officers have to go into battle with whatever regular weapons and gear they are issued with. Consider it a case of today's chapter master being the equivalent of a legion's top officer like First Captain or Lord Commander. A captain today being the equivalent of a legion chapter master such as Astelan or the Word Bearer who commanded Argel Tal. And a sergeant today being the equivalent of a company captain then. There is of course a little overlap and this some exceptions but this is an era of legions not chapters.

I would have addressed the matter of the assault cannons too but the Thousand Sons in ATS appear to use assault cannons except they call them reaper autocannons because of something to do with the power of numerology or something.

If we are talking Pre Heresy there were no Legion Chapter Masters IFAIK, Chapters only came into being after the Horus Heresy when the loyal Legions were broken up to form Chapters, and that The Emperor decreed that there will only be 1,000 chapters.

As far as i know as a Pre Heresy Legion the Thousand Sons were very large, in fact all Legions had in reading tens of thousands of Warriors within each Legion, so in my opinion the Thousand Sons would certainly have enough to have more than 2 Dreadnoughts.

Until someone actually comes out with an ABSOLUTE TO&E list anyone can make up a Pre Heresy Legion to his or her own liking.

dragonet111
30-03-2011, 14:53
Even if some here don't like this idea I think Grey Knights work quite well for Thousands Sons, not pre-heresy, actual Thousand Sons.

I play Blood Angels and there is a lot of players using the codex for other armies (Night Lords mainly) and this only bother me when it is to take advantage of the power level of a recent and quite good codex.
When it is done with great conversions and paint job, when the army looks great I'm happy to play against a "count as" army because the player put some real efforts in his army and I respect that.

Scammel
30-03-2011, 14:56
As far as i know as a Pre Heresy Legion the Thousand Sons were very large, in fact all Legions had in reading tens of thousands of Warriors within each Legion, so in my opinion the Thousand Sons would certainly have enough to have more than 2 Dreadnoughts.

The Thousand Sons were one of the smallest legions, perhaps the smallest, numbering only 10,000 men. Despite this, it's pretty easy to justify Dreads - they might not have had that many actual Dreadnoughts, but they did have plenty of fighting automata.

Oakwolf
30-03-2011, 15:03
Personally i think that pre-heresy stuff is a tad of a stretch, but current (tzeentch) ones could be done using the GK list, actually.

That said I suppose dreadnoughts might look like this...one ofthe most artistic piece of GW...

Pictoor (http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/a/0/0/10/d/AAAACo7TJYEAAAAAABDSCA.jpg?v=1150838310000)

Achaylus72
30-03-2011, 15:15
The Thousand Sons were one of the smallest legions, perhaps the smallest, numbering only 10,000 men. Despite this, it's pretty easy to justify Dreads - they might not have had that many actual Dreadnoughts, but they did have plenty of fighting automata.

Well that is worth 10 or so modern chapters, from 10,000 warriors at best you may have enough to fill out at least 50 Dreads. Surely there would be enough exhalted heroes to fill out 50 Dreads.

OakWolf

That old Dread looks cool.

shadowhawk2008
30-03-2011, 16:27
I believe that those weren't standard issue exactly...
I said "heroic", not "brother"
it was a big campaign with thousands of marines fighting battles, I bet there were a lot of captains, lieutenants, sergeants or otherwise prominent marine characters that bit the dust in the great crusade, worthy of being "dreadified"...

Brother is a catch-all term for anyone from a grunt to the highest officer. All available dreadnought background is clear. The brother who achieves countless victories on the battlefield, whose knowledge and expertise is very very valuable to the chapter and is almost dead yet has the will to live through is the one who is going to be entombed within a dreadnought. Why put Captain ABC in a dreadnought when his experience and skills are surpassed by Captain DEF? Why put Captain 123 in a dreadnought when his 3 victories are overshadowed by the at least 7 victories of nine other captains? Why entomb a dying marine who does not wish to live on as a hulking half-robot?


If we are talking Pre Heresy there were no Legion Chapter Masters IFAIK, Chapters only came into being after the Horus Heresy when the loyal Legions were broken up to form Chapters, and that The Emperor decreed that there will only be 1,000 chapters.

As far as i know as a Pre Heresy Legion the Thousand Sons were very large, in fact all Legions had in reading tens of thousands of Warriors within each Legion, so in my opinion the Thousand Sons would certainly have enough to have more than 2 Dreadnoughts.

Until someone actually comes out with an ABSOLUTE TO&E list anyone can make up a Pre Heresy Legion to his or her own liking.

The Word Bearers were each divided into chapters/grand companies of 1000 marines each. Each of these organizational units was overseen by a chapter master. The First Heretic. The Dark Angels were also organized along chapters/companies with chapter masters in command of these units. The Descent of Angels.

The Thousand Sons were one of the smallest legions, mainly due to the huge numbers lost to the flesh-changes before Magnus was found.

You also misunderstood my comment. I was talking about an army list, whether 2000 points or 10000 points. Taking more than 2 dreadnoughts is just unfluffy. Just consider how many dreadnoughts we really know of from the HH novels. So far I know of only one, Ancient Rylanor of the Emperor's Children.


Well that is worth 10 or so modern chapters, from 10,000 warriors at best you may have enough to fill out at least 50 Dreads. Surely there would be enough exhalted heroes to fill out 50 Dreads.
.

Fifty dreads in the era of the Crusade?

AlphariusOmegon20
30-03-2011, 16:38
Sure use the GK codex as pre-heresy Thousand Sons. Let's just be clear on a few things though. [I haven't read the GK codex so I can't be specific with these points but these apply to any pre-heresy astartes army].

1. You are not allowed the use of chaplains as the role of chaplains during the great crusade was to limit the power of the librarians.
2. No storm bolters. You can use them as twin-linked bolters though.
3. No dreadnoughts.
4. No Crusaders or Razors or Annihilator Preds.
5. No large quantities of artificer armour or master crafted weapons and such. Extremely limited.

Actually, I believe that may be slightly incorrect. IIRC, A Thousand Sons specifically mentions Razors and Whirlwinds as being used during the attack on Prospero by the SW. I know it mentions the Whirlwinds, but I think it mentioned Razors too.

That would have been DURING the Heresy. That means if Razors are mentioned as such, they would have had to have been issued prior to the Heresy.

Also, in Galaxy in Flames, It mentions Rylanor, an EC ancient dreadnought at the time of the Heresy as a character, so dreads did exist prior to the Heresy, otherwise Rylanor could not be an ANCIENT dread.

Excessus
30-03-2011, 16:41
yes, captain ABC just died, but since captain DEF has more victories we'll save the dreadnaught chassis for when he dies instead...IF he dies...ABC just gets a honorable mention...

Thanatos_elNyx
30-03-2011, 16:50
If you wanna play 30K, just pick a fandex, or even write your own.

A Fandex wouldn't be legal in a tournament.


Excellent point, zweischneid. It's interesting how many people go into the whole historical thing, building armies meant for a different era, and then play them in standard games of 40k without taking any of the historical context into account.
I guess it's part of the overall mentality of 40k, which is that fluff is something you should use when building your army only - when actually playing people, fluff is ignored or explained away, so ultramarines will fight ultramarines in "training excercises" or whatnot.
It would be nice if more people played their games in fluff-related contexts, rather than the tournament-oriented "any army vs. any army" context.

If I go to the trouble of building a fluffy army; I will want to use it for any game I play. For many people the only games they get to play are in tournaments, so why shouldn't they get to use their beautifully converted army?

Tastyfish
30-03-2011, 17:03
Actually, I believe that may be slightly incorrect. IIRC, A Thousand Sons specifically mentions Razors and Whirlwinds as being used during the attack on Prospero by the SW. I know it mentions the Whirlwinds, but I think it mentioned Razors too.

That would have been DURING the Heresy. That means if Razors are mentioned as such, they would have had to have been issued prior to the Heresy.

Also, in Galaxy in Flames, It mentions Rylanor, an EC ancient dreadnought at the time of the Heresy as a character, so dreads did exist prior to the Heresy, otherwise Rylanor could not be an ANCIENT dread.

Was he an ancient dreadnought or a dreadnought Ancient - ancient is a rank in the current chapters, the master of relics and bearer of the chapter's standard.

That seems like an honoured enough role to warrant being entombed in a dread.

Sabe
30-03-2011, 17:14
Indeed, they mean Ancient the rank, not the vague temporal reference. Still, in game terms it wouldn't be a stretch to consider Ryalnor a venerable dread if he was played, hence it could be possible for other legions to have a venerable dread or two as well.

shadowhawk2008
30-03-2011, 18:55
Actually, I believe that may be slightly incorrect. IIRC, A Thousand Sons specifically mentions Razors and Whirlwinds as being used during the attack on Prospero by the SW. I know it mentions the Whirlwinds, but I think it mentioned Razors too.

That would have been DURING the Heresy. That means if Razors are mentioned as such, they would have had to have been issued prior to the Heresy.

Also, in Galaxy in Flames, It mentions Rylanor, an EC ancient dreadnought at the time of the Heresy as a character, so dreads did exist prior to the Heresy, otherwise Rylanor could not be an ANCIENT dread.

Razorbacks cannot have been fielded during the heresy. Its impossible. According to IA2 the Razorback STC was discovered [rediscovered really but thats arguing semantics] during M36!


yes, captain ABC just died, but since captain DEF has more victories we'll save the dreadnaught chassis for when he dies instead...IF he dies...ABC just gets a honorable mention...

Exactly, you keep saving the chassis for someone. DEF needs to meet a lot of criteria before he is entombed in a dreadnought. And a lot depends on the skills of the apothecaries. Since this is the Great Crusade we are talking about, their skills are obviously [imo] greater than that of contemporary apothecaries.


Was he an ancient dreadnought or a dreadnought Ancient - ancient is a rank in the current chapters, the master of relics and bearer of the chapter's standard.

That seems like an honoured enough role to warrant being entombed in a dread.

Honour role. He was the legion's tradition keeper or some such.

He is only ever referred to as Ancient Rylanor, so its a rank. As I said, to be a venerable dreadnought at the time of the great crusade, any warrior would have to have been fighting for the legion since at least the Unification Wars and would have to be one of the highest ranking member of the legion and be one of its greatest heroes as well. What really are the odds of that? Not to mention that his conduct as a Dreadnought would have to be equally if not greater exemplary.


Indeed, they mean Ancient the rank, not the vague temporal reference. Still, in game terms it wouldn't be a stretch to consider Ryalnor a venerable dread if he was played, hence it could be possible for other legions to have a venerable dread or two as well.

The BoLS heresy fandex, which I used for my ideas, is quite clear on this. Its all a matter of time and experience to consider a dreadnought venerable.

Excessus
30-03-2011, 19:28
"Exactly, you keep saving the chassis for someone. DEF needs to meet a lot of criteria before he is entombed in a dreadnought. And a lot depends on the skills of the apothecaries. Since this is the Great Crusade we are talking about, their skills are obviously [imo] greater than that of contemporary apothecaries."
That's just silly, it's a war going on out there, but they are waiting to bring a powerful warmachine into the field because of a waiting list? Ridiculous!

althathir
30-03-2011, 19:42
If we are talking Pre Heresy there were no Legion Chapter Masters IFAIK, Chapters only came into being after the Horus Heresy when the loyal Legions were broken up to form Chapters, and that The Emperor decreed that there will only be 1,000 chapters.

As far as i know as a Pre Heresy Legion the Thousand Sons were very large, in fact all Legions had in reading tens of thousands of Warriors within each Legion, so in my opinion the Thousand Sons would certainly have enough to have more than 2 Dreadnoughts.

Until someone actually comes out with an ABSOLUTE TO&E list anyone can make up a Pre Heresy Legion to his or her own liking.

Dreads weren't mentioned in the thousands sons hh book, I think because they skipped a lot of the earlier conflicts due to the flesh change


The Thousand Sons were one of the smallest legions, perhaps the smallest, numbering only 10,000 men. Despite this, it's pretty easy to justify Dreads - they might not have had that many actual Dreadnoughts, but they did have plenty of fighting automata.

I actually think they were smaller, the flesh change really hurt them and if iirc they were the last to deploy. I think they numbered somewhere around 6000before the attack on prospero in the thousands sons hh book.


Simple thought for all those who have wanted to do a pre-heresy thousand sons army but found that neither the C:SM or SM dex could provide a satisfactory reperasentation. Is the GK codex the aswer?

All the psykers and force weapons is certainly appropriate, and they would have been the legion most able to wipe the floor with deamons.

Naturally you'd have to restrict yourself from certain wargear, so Inquisition etc.

The only thing it's really hard to justift is all the storm bolters. You could model them with no guns at all and claim it as a psykic shooting attack, or that they use their powers to guide their shots, giving them the increased accuracy and allowing them to shoot on the move.

Has anyone thought of this? I'm not a mega TS fanatic myself so I doubt I'll end up trying it, but if I did want to portray them as close to the fluff as possible, this is certianly the way I would do it.

I would model it after the sacrab occult, their first company all psychers, and all in termie armor

Adra
30-03-2011, 21:31
Its the best of a bad bunch but nothing is really close enough to pre-heresy 1K sons in the current codexes. A fandex is a much better option.

AlphariusOmegon20
30-03-2011, 21:47
Razorbacks cannot have been fielded during the heresy. Its impossible. According to IA2 the Razorback STC was discovered [rediscovered really but thats arguing semantics] during M36!
.

No, not impossible. How much fluff has either been retconned or just outright contradicted by another source? It's been done for several years now.

I'm afraid that because of BL now writing the fluff and placing those in ATS, it does give question as to when the STC was actually found.

Scammel
30-03-2011, 22:00
I actually think they were smaller, the flesh change really hurt them and if iirc they were the last to deploy. I think they numbered somewhere around 6000before the attack on prospero in the thousands sons hh book.

Ahriman states that, after the battle for Prospero when there's 1000 left, that it's a tenth of the legion.

althathir
30-03-2011, 22:04
Ahriman states that, after the battle for Prospero when there's 1000 left, that it's a tenth of the legion.

I thought he meant a tenth of what they started from (when they were first raised) rather that what they had on Prospero.