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Maccwar
30-03-2011, 20:55
Potentially interesting news from over on Frothers (NSFW).

BattlefieldBerlin

Just got note from GW that they will stop the production of metal products for at least 3 months. The Sales guys don`t know why, most items are already out of stock, so I guess they stopped productions already some weeks ago...

From a source retailer no less ... and yes he denies its an early April 1st.

:confused:

Chaos and Evil
30-03-2011, 21:23
Probably due to the transition over to resin.

shelfunit.
30-03-2011, 21:36
Probably due to the transition over to resin.

I like it - better detail, increased profits (I can only assume resin costs far less than metal - and weighs far less), and possibly far more shatter-able, so we will have to buy more...

Chaos and Evil
30-03-2011, 21:48
increased profits (I can only assume resin costs far less than metal - and weighs far less)
About 5% of the raw material cost, yeah.

Generally more labour-intensive to cast than metal, though.

shelfunit.
30-03-2011, 22:05
Well if it increased the quality of the minis they make, and (however unlikely) keeps prices stable for a length of time, then I wish them well in it. I wonder how long oter manufacturers will take to follow GWs lead here, and how their prices will change (if at all) to reflect the differences in costs resin brings.
I expect GW to either maintain current metal prices or increase them, citing "transition costs". Only when other manufacturers (if there are any currently producing resins please link some :) ) start shifting to resin will we see what the actual normal market price should be.

Ronin[XiC]
30-03-2011, 22:10
Mmh interesting...

Chaos and Evil
30-03-2011, 22:15
(if there are any currently producing resins please link some )
The biggest companies currently doing any mass-production of resin are Forgeworld, and Mantic Games with their semi-automated "resin-plastic" casting.

shelfunit.
30-03-2011, 22:17
The biggest companies currently doing any mass-production of resin are Forgeworld, and Mantic Games.

Yeah, I figured forge world and Iknow about the mantic undead cavalry - and the large price difference between the two.
Mantics resin is a lot different to FW resin though isn't it? Blended with plastic or something so it won't shatter if dropped?

ForgottenLore
30-03-2011, 22:37
Probably due to the transition over to resin.

Could you elaborate on that? I haven't heard anything about GW moving to resin figs.

Chaos and Evil
30-03-2011, 22:51
Yeah, I figured forge world and Iknow about the mantic undead cavalry - and the large price difference between the two.
Mantics resin is a lot different to FW resin though isn't it? Blended with plastic or something so it won't shatter if dropped?

I believe the end result is pretty similar, it's the processes that differ.

Note that FW's resin is pretty bendy these days, rather than the brittle stuff they used to use.


Could you elaborate on that? I haven't heard anything about GW moving to resin figs.
There's been a strong rumour floating around that GW is abandoning metal and moving to resin.

An otherwise-mysterious gap in production would seem to tally with that rumour, as it will give GW time to bring in the new production method.

shelfunit.
30-03-2011, 23:13
Would FW still be relevant if GW started usng the same materials/methods as them? It would seem a little odd to have both producing the same quality of stuff, but FW being (even) more expensive.

Chaos and Evil
30-03-2011, 23:17
Would FW still be relevant if GW started usng the same materials/methods as them? It would seem a little odd to have both producing the same quality of stuff, but FW being (even) more expensive.

*shrug*

GW's prices are pretty much the same as FW's prices when dealing with like-for-like, these days.

Achaylus72
30-03-2011, 23:41
I once said on another post that i heard that GW was going to eventually take over FW production and eventually wind that Brand Name up, which means an expansion of Individual Characters and Exotics.

If this is a programme to get rid of metal well about bloody time.

rodmillard
30-03-2011, 23:48
The biggest companies currently doing any mass-production of resin are Forgeworld, and Mantic Games with their semi-automated "resin-plastic" casting.

Spartan Games use almost all resin these days, with just some fiddly upgrade pieces (like turrets) being cast in metal. For what they do (small scale ships and aircraft, with a few 28mm hero models) the detail is excellent - way above metal equivalents for a fraction of the price.

Hopefully, this will allow GW to at least freeze the prices of metal/resin character models for a while. While they could do what Mantic did with their revenant cav (twice as many models for the same price) I'm too cynical to believe they will do it.

On the other hand, indy retailers may go for stock clearance sales of GW metals before they restock with resin. Again, I'm too cynical to believe GW themselves would do this...

Nat B
30-03-2011, 23:50
I think that resin will definately overtake metal in the model industry over the longterm, new startup miniatures companies are increasingly using resin rather than metal. I think if GW can sucessfully transition to resin for what were previously metal they will be able stabilise their costs and stop increasing prices longterm, (FW prices are stable compared to GW), I think an extended period of price stability would be of significant benefit for GW and if they could achieve a price cut on blister models by transitioning then it would be of significant PR benefit to them.

Deamon-forge
30-03-2011, 23:56
if GW go to resin over normal metal prices will sore, or they better have a good quality control. be nice if they do the switch to rein if they lowerd the prices a little.

Achaylus72
31-03-2011, 00:14
Well if GW does go over to Resin to replace Metal why would they keep FW, especially all the after market stuff for conversion work.

Inquisitor Kallus
31-03-2011, 00:26
because they work on a different scale....... . They dont make whole armys, they make specialised pieces. If they just got rid of FW then theyd lose a very popular part of the company as such. If they merged however, then we might see a greater output of codex based models. Interesting....

Nat B
31-03-2011, 00:28
Well if GW does go over to Resin to replace Metal why would they keep FW, especially all the after market stuff for conversion work.

Because not all resins are the same, there are many thousands of types. Some are suited to mass production, some are suited to 1 off models, it would be a surprise if GW used the same resin as FW, they are 2 different companies with different needs and requirements.

Lars Porsenna
31-03-2011, 00:35
The biggest companies currently doing any mass-production of resin are Forgeworld, and Mantic Games with their semi-automated "resin-plastic" casting.

I wonder how that compares to say Verlinden at their peak...

Damon.

New Cult King
31-03-2011, 01:08
Another excuse for prices to rise. Watch and see.

Malorian
31-03-2011, 01:25
Another excuse for prices to rise. Watch and see.

Oh come on now.

If anything it's going be like the greatswords where it will stay the same price but just be in plastic/resin, so people will argue it's a price increase due to not being metal.

selfconstrukt
31-03-2011, 01:38
More likely the prices will rise every year as usual.

Resin is very cheap, as with everything else it gets cheaper when you buy in bulk too. I had a quote from Innovative Polymers for buying resin in 50 gallon drums, in the end the resin would have cost ¢15 per fluid ounce and the part we would be making used 4.5 oz of resin and was almost the size of a Rhino (although it was somewhat hollowed out).


The biggest companies currently doing any mass-production of resin are Forgeworld, and Mantic Games with their semi-automated "resin-plastic" casting.

Don't forget Privateer Press. The new Battle Engines are resin/metal hybrid kits. I wouldn't be surprised if PP also went to more resin casting with their regular range instead of metal, being a smaller company they would need to try and make production ex inexpensive as possible.

FabricatorGeneralMike
31-03-2011, 01:48
Another excuse for prices to rise. Watch and see.

QFT, any excuse for another price rise...


Mr Kirby or Mr Wells " No really, this time its because of outside factors, not greed or trying to hide declining sales, honest :angel:"

Smells like :cheese: to me.


Really tho, if they can come close to the level of FW stuff while keeping the same prices now, I guess this could be a good thing tho. I mean I would pay 42$ Canadian for 10 FW mk II-V marines with phobos patteren guns.

Freakiq
31-03-2011, 01:54
I don't care if this results in a 50% price hike, all I can say is glory glory hallelujah!

No more heavy as hell models that chips its paint just by falling over.

New Cult King
31-03-2011, 02:11
Oh come on now.

If anything it's going be like the greatswords where it will stay the same price but just be in plastic/resin, so people will argue it's a price increase due to not being metal.

Watch and see ;)

Ranchhand
31-03-2011, 02:28
Hi! New member here...
I don't play as much as paint the minis...

Just thought I could add some thoughts here, as I am a 1/35 scale military modeler and work with a lot of resin.

In general there is no one kind if resin, some of it is brittle and stinks really bad. Others are much softer and don't have terrible smell. The amount of detail that can be attained in resin is astounding, as anyone can see looking at forgeworld minis.

If you want to see some if the best that resin has to offer take a look at alpine miniatures. They use top quality resin and amazing sculpts.
They are $18 for one figure though.

I purchased several games workshop plastic kits (a dreadnaught and chaos terminator lord) and was amazed at the quality of the plastic molding, maybe GW doesn't really need go move to resin?

spaint2k
31-03-2011, 03:05
This could be the perfect opportunity for GW to finally kill the specialist games ranges. Remastering everything for resin production would surely not be cost-effective at this point.

sigur
31-03-2011, 03:10
If that's true this means a massive change. I'm not convinced until we see any facts so let's see.

Hellebore
31-03-2011, 03:32
Are there any companies out there that do commercial resin casting? Ranedra does plastic sprues, but that's a little out of the everyman's price range...

Hellebore

eriochrome
31-03-2011, 04:08
If they go to resin they better have better quality control than forge world. Forge world ships a lot of questionable pieces. GW's volume is so much bigger and goes to customers who are in general less forgiving as new people who do not know just to call and ask for a new one.

spaint2k
31-03-2011, 05:58
FW product is back to being made at the Lenton GW HQ again.

I don't think that is a comment either for or against the quality, to be honest. I've had MANY questionable pieces from Forge World that were cast in the UK, and I've seen (unfortunately not the parts I've purchased) the same parts that have been cast in China and the quality of the Chinese parts was MUCH higher. Ork Warboss on Bike being one example I can think of right off the bat.

eldargal
31-03-2011, 07:01
Ha, I suggested months ago in one of the metal vs plastic threads that maybe GW would switch metal production to resin. I was told it would never happen because resin couldn't be recycled.

warflag
31-03-2011, 07:34
Is there any other confirmation of this other than they will probably change to resin sometime in the future?
I have a hard time believing this, however, if that happens a lot will change. That´s a move mainly towards the gaming community. Collectors do rarely go for resin, except FW stuff maybe. Which leads to the question:
Will oldschool models still in the range be recast in resin? Or the new Azhag for example?

I am not fond of the idea. I worked with resin and disliked it. Too light, too brittle.
Also sceptic as its properties are rather demanding for unexperienced modelers.
We´ll see.

scarletsquig
31-03-2011, 08:35
I really don't like this idea. Had enough grief with cleaning greasy release agent, hot-water bending into shape and removing excessive amounts of flash from forgeworld resins. DO NOT WANT for the current metal models.

If it goes ahead, I'll buy a bunch of metal stock to sell on ebay at inflated prices after the switch is made... there will be a *lot* of people that will still want the OOP metals.

I did the same thing back when the plastic daemonettes were released, bulk-bought about 100 of them before they were removed from sale and doubled my money on them (no flames please, if I didn't buy those models, GW would have just melted them down).

I'll focus on popular stuff like space marines and some of the most well-sculpted characters... e.g. bendy/brittle/warped lelith hesperax sculpt with a dozen vents? No thanks, metal please.

Ozorik
31-03-2011, 08:57
This could be the perfect opportunity for GW to finally kill the specialist games ranges. Remastering everything for resin production would surely not be cost-effective at this point.

They already have killed it off, this would just be a convenient excuse to bury it.

Battlefront makes all its vehicles as resin/hybrid kits.

spaint2k
31-03-2011, 09:19
I did the same thing back when the plastic daemonettes were released, bulk-bought about 100 of them before they were removed from sale and doubled my money on them (no flames please, if I didn't buy those models, GW would have just melted them down).


I actually think that's great.


They already have killed it off, this would just be a convenient excuse to bury it.



Just the final nail in the coffin, really, I agree.

Sai-Lauren
31-03-2011, 09:31
An otherwise-mysterious gap in production would seem to tally with that rumour, as it will give GW time to bring in the new production method.

If so, then it's a very silly way to do the change over (ok, ok, this is GW we're talking about, but still... :)) , you need to run the old production method for as long as you can, whilst bringing in the new alongside it, then switch over and decommission the old with no loss of production.

Just suspending production to move over winds up with you having no income whilst you move.

To shut down production for any length of time is something pretty serious, my guess would be that it's something that's been enforced on them, not something they're choosing to do. And three months sounds like they're having to do some major work, which wouldn't tie in with just turning the metal furnaces off in favour of resin mixing pots.

And even if they are rebuilding the factory floor, they could still outsource the work whilst they do that.

Also, which territories does this affect, just Europe, or the whole world?

Just Europe, then it's something at Lenton.
Whole world, then it might be changing over.

logan054
31-03-2011, 10:00
Hopefully, this will allow GW to at least freeze the prices of metal/resin character models for a while. While they could do what Mantic did with their revenant cav (twice as many models for the same price) I'm too cynical to believe they will do it.

I remember when they changed to white metal it was meant to keep the prices down yet several years later the prices of metal have doubled, all resin will lead to is the same product at a higher price.

Sai-Lauren
31-03-2011, 11:02
Another problem with moving to all resin is the dust produced when filing/ sanding - fine dust in the lungs is not really life enhancing, whilst the current metal is only really dangerous if you eat it, or stuff a load of it in a sock and hit someone with it.

Little Johnny's parents aren't going to be too happy when a health advisory goes out that they need to wear face masks to do any work.

At best, temporary shutdown sounds like "we need to fix something immediately, but normal service will be resumed" rather than "we're moving from one raw material to another".

In fact, the more I think about this whole story, the more I'm coming to the opinion that it's an early April Fool's.

f2k
31-03-2011, 12:27
Battlefront makes all its vehicles as resin/hybrid kits.

And I, for one, dearly wish they didn’t. I’m currently trying (with a big emphasis on trying) to convert some of their tanks. And it’s downright terrible working with the resin hulls. The resin is so damn brittle that it’s all but impossible to drill or cut into it without having big chunks splintering off.


Another problem with moving to all resin is the dust produced when filing/ sanding - fine dust in the lungs is not really life enhancing, whilst the current metal is only really dangerous if you eat it, or stuff a load of it in a sock and hit someone with it.

Little Johnny's parents aren't going to be too happy when a health advisory goes out that they need to wear face masks to do any work.


Yet another reason to hate resin – it just won’t work for conversions.

But then again, Games Workshop is very far away from the “this army is mainly for players who like to be creative and do a lot of conversions and sculpting” days. So it might actually not bother them so much...

x-esiv-4c
31-03-2011, 12:41
The resin from forgeworld is a pain to convert / model.

mathieu
31-03-2011, 13:42
As for "shatterable", well that depends on the resin. The resin PP uses is more like a resin version of polystyrene and is not brittle at all.The "resin" PP uses is a very crappy plastic that quite a few other manufacturers had started to use when PP jumped that bandwagon. Sure it isn't brittle... But it's also not nearly as easy to clean (softer plastic) as polystyrene or actual, quality resin.

Hellebore
31-03-2011, 15:32
Yes you can recycle resin, we're doing that here at PP for the Battle Engines. We're also recycling our used RTV molds.


Is that by shredding them into pieces/grinding them to dust and adding it as filler? Seeing as how you can buy filler that's just particulate anyway, this would seem to be a good way to do it. I've been using sprue chopped into pieces as a bulking medium for my own casts.

I've yet to find something that can grind the sprue styrene down into a powder though - at least not something that isn't an industrial tree shredder...


Is that casting styrene spincast or gravity cast? I've not seen it for sale from the major resin manufacturers, is it only available in commercial quantities?

Hellebore

Deamon-forge
31-03-2011, 16:09
The resin from forgeworld is a pain to convert / model.

really, i find it easyer than plastic.

mathieu
31-03-2011, 18:57
The resin we are using is a two part version of polystyrene. If you are referring to the plastic we use for our Heavy and Light Warjack kits then that's not resin, its a type of PVC plastic. I do agree that it is more difficult to clean up than ploystyrene and metal.My bad, your previous post didn't suggest you were talking about the new resin models, and since they aren't out yet I suspected you were talking about the plastic ones. For many people apparently, since it doesn't behave the way GW plastic does then it has to be resin. I didn't know you were with PP, again my bad ;)


And we didn't "jump on the bandwagon". The decision to change to plastic was made over a long period of time and the ridiculous cost of metal was a key factor as well as increased demand.Possibly. It just so happen that you guys got into that particular type of plastic after quite a few other companies did (move that ended up being instrumental in the fall of Alkemy, btw. Oh well...)
Doesn't matter. I hate that material. Casting is hardly ever decent, cleaning is a pain... Looks like everybody is backing away from it now, so I guess I'm not the only one who disliked it (whatever everybody else's reasons are).

As far as GW moving to resin, I'm skeptical. That'd mean switching to a more toxic material which seems backward after the move to white metal.

Satan
31-03-2011, 19:10
Another problem with moving to all resin is the dust produced when filing/ sanding - fine dust in the lungs is not really life enhancing, whilst the current metal is only really dangerous if you eat it, or stuff a load of it in a sock and hit someone with it.

Little Johnny's parents aren't going to be too happy when a health advisory goes out that they need to wear face masks to do any work.

At best, temporary shutdown sounds like "we need to fix something immediately, but normal service will be resumed" rather than "we're moving from one raw material to another".

In fact, the more I think about this whole story, the more I'm coming to the opinion that it's an early April Fool's.

Yeah, I can't understand why a company that markets its products to kids would make those products out of something suspected of being cancerogenic?

True story:

I bought a resin baneblade from a guy who had cancer. His last advice to me was to use a mask when handling resin models - 'cause, y'know.... sadly he later passed away from the disease.

Suffice to say, despite owning several resin objects I have a healthy skepticism towards them.

Freakiq
31-03-2011, 20:58
And we didn't "jump on the bandwagon". The decision to change to plastic was made over a long period of time and the ridiculous cost of metal was a key factor as well as increased demand.

But it sure was hilarious when you did.

Several years of page 5 telling us that plastics is for kids and most Warmachine gamers claiming plastics were inferior.

And then suddenly you switch to plastic and make half your fanbase look like ******s. :D

I think it was a great decision, it was just the initial mockery of plstics that made the transition seem awkward.

yabbadabba
31-03-2011, 21:43
In fact, the more I think about this whole story, the more I'm coming to the opinion that it's an early April Fool's. GW has been thinking about Resin for a few years. The rumours have been out there, but generally ignored - and rightly so. I don't see FW being impacted by this, in fact they might move to whatever resin GW use to cash in.

If so, then it's a very silly way to do the change over (ok, ok, this is GW we're talking about, but still... :)) , you need to run the old production method for as long as you can, whilst bringing in the new alongside it, then switch over and decommission the old with no loss of production. I disagree. Look at the models which have been discontinued. Some of them or due to be binned - Saruman and Grima is a joint code, Dreadlord might go plastic in a new DE wave (monsters this Summer?) - some of the others are probably some of the first models up for resin linked with a new release - OK army book etc. So I don't think its "silly" and there might even be a plan behind it.

I remember when they changed to white metal it was meant to keep the prices down yet several years later the prices of metal have doubled, all resin will lead to is the same product at a higher price. It was more than that. There was some problems with legal issues in the US over selling lead models. I remember a mate of mine who worked at GWHQ in .... 94/95ish said their legal advice was to get out of lead if they could.
Don't forget that, aside with other costs, Tin prices (http://www.infomine.com/chartsanddata/chartbuilder.aspx?z=f&g=127674&dr=15y) have shot up, even lead (http://www.infomine.com/chartsanddata/chartbuilder.aspx?z=f&g=127673&dr=15y) has had some price problems.

rattman
31-03-2011, 23:22
If they do goto resin, hope they use a better quality resin than forge world. I have an armorcast reaver and fantastic in the northern australian summers. My mates forgeworld reaver has to live in the beer fridge

Nat B
01-04-2011, 00:50
I've yet to find something that can grind the sprue styrene down into a powder though - at least not something that isn't an industrial tree shredder...
Hellebore

If its only small quantities for home casting from your own masters then use a coffee grinder, I find it grinds sprue/runners/risers etc into a suitable powder for using as filler in terrain quality moulds. Though I use professionally ground and graded filler for fine casting as if its too dusty it impacts viscosity too much.

Sai-Lauren
01-04-2011, 09:07
I disagree. Look at the models which have been discontinued. Some of them or due to be binned - Saruman and Grima is a joint code, Dreadlord might go plastic in a new DE wave (monsters this Summer?) - some of the others are probably some of the first models up for resin linked with a new release - OK army book etc. So I don't think its "silly" and there might even be a plan behind it.

To discontinue individual models - whether because they're moving to a different material and you need to clear stocks out to avoid self-competition, or just because they've gone past their shelf life - is very different from shutting down the entire metals production side of the company for 3 months.

Binky
01-04-2011, 09:35
On the subject of conversions, I've found FW resin models really easy to convert. I've done plenty of conversions of DKOK models, from cutting them in half at the waist to cutting off a tiny shoulder pad to use on a different model, all seemed really easy to do!

Gazak Blacktoof
01-04-2011, 10:24
As others have mentioned there are various pros and cons to a switch to resin. I agree with what Sai-Lauren said, I would think that the health problems resin can cause would be the biggest obstacle to GW. However, if PP and various other miniature companies can make it work without it hitting their sales, I'm sure GW can too.

On a personal level I'm not sure where I stand as a modeller. I find resin easier to cut and easier to pick out details when converting and cleaning, but much more difficult to bend back into shape.

Overall I think that if the detail improves without a price bump then I'll be happy, as the final appearance of the miniature and the price are the important factors to me. Details like health concerns, manufacturing issues and recycling issues are details for GW itself.

Little Joe
01-04-2011, 12:11
I would call myself an advanced hobbyist, but I refused to touch resin so far because of the health issues.
If it is harmless and has no heat/brittle issues I might take a look, otherwise I do not care and will not work with it. The glue fumes are bad enough.;)

Gazak Blacktoof
01-04-2011, 12:15
Provided you wear a mask when working with it in a cured state it's not going to cause you any health issues. I used to work next to a boat yard where they worked with resins constantly and none of them keeled over and died.

mathieu
01-04-2011, 13:52
I agree with what Sai-Lauren said, I would think that the health problems resin can cause would be the biggest obstacle to GW. However, if PP and various other miniature companies can make it work without it hitting their sales, I'm sure GW can too.PP doesn't know yet if they can make it work with no effect on their sales. Aside the health problem there's the fact that the upcoming model are very, very expensive for resin kits.

f2k
01-04-2011, 15:33
I don't know about you guys, but I prefer not having to wear a dustmask and having a window open (it's still bloody cold here in Denmark) when working with my models.

Sinnertje
01-04-2011, 15:38
Perhaps, one day, we will be like "In the old days, we used to have METAL! models! There was a great amount of effort involved with pinning and gluing and filing just to assemble it... and even then it would sometimes fall apart! You youngsters have it easy these days!"

Okay the falling apart bit is perhaps just my crappy pinning skills.

Havarel
01-04-2011, 16:18
Has this been revealed as an April Fools yet? If not (and it isn't) I would love this to happen. Converting metal models is a nightmare, resin is so much easier. Sod the health risks, a lot of things at the moment have the spectre of a health risk (food, mobile phones etc), I see this as just another thing on the list.

yabbadabba
01-04-2011, 16:46
To discontinue individual models - whether because they're moving to a different material and you need to clear stocks out to avoid self-competition, or just because they've gone past their shelf life - is very different from shutting down the entire metals production side of the company for 3 months. GW have done this a few times before whether by range or the entire product. They are not operating at full capacity currently. They will know what models sell slowly, which sell quick and how much stock is across their sales channels and at HQ. They will have ramped up production on some lines to tide them over, and stopped making others sometime last year (yes some things do sell that slow). In short I think you are selling them short on planning.

What this seems to suggest to me is GW are looking to sell through enough metal stock within 3 months to minimalise on the amount left in the system when they switch to resin. That also suggests that for whatever reason they expect the resin to be in more demand than the metal when its released. Read into that what you will.

The final thing is about resin dust. I can't see GW deliberately cutting off their kiddy market. Which means either they are seriously going to ramp up the plastics, and leave a few kits as resins that can only be sold to a certain age group, or they have a resin/resin process that won't cause this concern.
Or they have decided to love Vets again :eek:

Gazak Blacktoof
01-04-2011, 18:30
Has this been revealed as an April Fools yet?

The OP was on the 30th, so it's a poor one if it is.

Amnar
01-04-2011, 18:58
Call me old fashioned, but I like my metal models. I doubt I'd buy any resin minis to be honest. I just really hope they don't take this as an opportunity to bury specialist games....

eldargal
02-04-2011, 05:18
Why would a switch to resin be anything other than a boon for Specialist Games? No more expensive metal, it suddenly becomes cheaper for GW to produce stock for the games. No more small quantity, expensive metal kits with low profit margins.

New Cult King
02-04-2011, 07:15
"GW feels that since our new range of resin miniatures is even MORE detailed than anything we've done before, we need to charge a premium price for a premium product!"

eldargal
02-04-2011, 07:59
I never once made any reference to it being cheaper for the consumer, I was quite clear in stating that the costs for GW would be lower, profit margins per kit higher, thus making Specialist Games more viable.

Harry
02-04-2011, 08:22
If that's true this means a massive change. I'm not convinced until we see any facts so let's see.
It is a HUGE change.
It is not an April fools joke. (I have known about it for a while it is just unfortunate timing for the rumour to break).
It is really happening.


If what I've been told is correct they are going to be spin-casting the resin using vulcanized silicone molds, the same molds used for metal casting just with a different cutting technique more suited to the flow of resin. We had in the past retrofitted some old molds for metal casting to test out resin casting and they worked fairly well, 3even better with some extra cutting.

So if GW is sticking with this method, and they probably are since spin casting resin is mostly the same as spin casting metal, it also uses much of the same equipment so there would be no extra set-up cost.

If this is correct than they can still use the existing masters to make new molds.

Even is they were to move towards an RTV-type material you could still use the existing masters to make new molds.

There really is no reason for GW to stop making any product because of a change in materials.
This is what I heard.


GW have done this a few times before whether by range or the entire product. They are not operating at full capacity currently. They will know what models sell slowly, which sell quick and how much stock is across their sales channels and at HQ. They will have ramped up production on some lines to tide them over, and stopped making others sometime last year (yes some things do sell that slow). In short I think you are selling them short on planning.

What this seems to suggest to me is GW are looking to sell through enough metal stock within 3 months to minimalise on the amount left in the system when they switch to resin. That also suggests that for whatever reason they expect the resin to be in more demand than the metal when its released. Read into that what you will.

The final thing is about resin dust. I can't see GW deliberately cutting off their kiddy market. Which means either they are seriously going to ramp up the plastics, and leave a few kits as resins that can only be sold to a certain age group, or they have a resin/resin process that won't cause this concern.
Or they have decided to love Vets again :eek:
All of that sounds right. I have had the same thoughts.

Except the "they have decided to love vets again".:shifty:

I have been buying metal miniatures from Citadel for 30 years.
To be honest ... I'm gutted.

New Cult King
02-04-2011, 08:39
I never once made any reference to it being cheaper for the consumer, I was quite clear in stating that the costs for GW would be lower, profit margins per kit higher, thus making Specialist Games more viable.

Oh I know, but here in Aus you pay as much for an Epic scale Thunderhawk Lifter as you do for a 40K scale Landraider.

This won't save SG for us.

yabbadabba
02-04-2011, 09:24
I have been buying metal miniatures from Citadel for 30 years. To be honest ... I'm gutted. I am as well fella, but when you look at the recent prices of tin, here is one for antimony (http://www.metalprices.com/pubcharts/Public/Antimony_Price_Charts.asp)which I believe is also a part of GWs alloy then you can see why they want to get out of metals. Personally I'd be happy for them to return to lead, but that ain't gonna happen either.

They have been dying out anyway, but this definitely will be the end of units made up of a command group, and then 27 identical models :cries:. Might not be everyone's cup of tea but it is a part of my history in wargaming.

darius-god-of-biscuits
02-04-2011, 13:57
To think I used to take the mickey out of my father for collecting stamps from French colonies that no longer existed.

Now, I find myself collecting metal toys manufactured 1993 to 2011.

steveb
02-04-2011, 15:01
A serious ramp-up in plastics production? Perhaps no surprise that they are currently advertising for multiple new sculptors for plastics process sculpting...

Sarevok
02-04-2011, 17:56
hope the quality control is better than Forgeworld

Grimmeth
02-04-2011, 23:29
So when are we expecting to see this happen?

Havarel
03-04-2011, 01:04
Ok, I'm convinced now. I'm so happy that this is happening. I detest metal, not only for how easily the models chip.but for how hard it is to convert them. I for one embrace our new resin masters..

Nomad
03-04-2011, 01:16
I hate this. I prefer working with materials that don't kill me. Soon as the metals disappear from the online stores, I'm going plastic-only.

eldargal
03-04-2011, 01:26
That much resin won't kill you for gods sake. That is like saying going to a candlelit restaurant will give you lung cancer.

Shipmonkey
03-04-2011, 02:29
That much resin won't kill you for gods sake. That is like saying going to a candlelit restaurant will give you lung cancer.

I'ld certainly say the chance of catching a bad case of the lung cancer from a candlelit dinner is insignificant next to all the cancers you'll be get from the various preservatives and dyes in the food. Or for that matter, all the fertilizers and pesticides used to grow the food. Or all the car exhaust you huffed on the way there.

Let's just go back to lead. I'm sure there are no negatives side-effects to good old lead.

stahly
03-04-2011, 11:02
Will we really see the same kind of resin that e.g. Forgeworld uses? I find the kind of plastic/resin hybrid that Privateer Press uses much more reasonable because it seams more user friendly and less toxic. Or is it cast differently than a spin-casting technique?

Marked_by_chaos
03-04-2011, 12:58
Are we sure this isn't more likely a production line shut down to cut costs.

We know that GW made an announcement in January about poor sales (due to the weather) in the UK, but there have also been some very poor retail figures in the UK over the last month and they might see a temporary shut down and reduction in overheads as a way of compensating to a degree.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-04-2011, 13:21
We can't be sure of anything as this hasn't been confirmed by GW directly, but a couple of reliable posters have said its due to a switch in materials.

Llew
03-04-2011, 13:26
If you'd like to continue to be unsure, please do so. Once Harry has confirmed a rumor in no uncertain terms, I'd say it's a lock.

Earthbeard
03-04-2011, 13:58
That much resin won't kill you for gods sake. That is like saying going to a candlelit restaurant will give you lung cancer.

Agreed, of course common sense seems to have gone the way of the dodo here.

Ivellis
03-04-2011, 15:23
Honestly, I'd greatly prefer resin. Easier to assemble and lighter armies are a huge plus in my books. Not to mention having less paint chips. As long as they don't increase prices with resin then I'm all for it. (Who am I kidding, prices will skyrocket. Though I hold a small candle of hope that they may actually drop them just a smidgen)

I have to admit having the only zero metal product line would greatly increase my GW buys for once. I love PP and Warmachine, along with several skirmish games, but I hate assembling metal models so dang much.

shabbadoo
04-04-2011, 01:25
I don't mind resin for larger, clunky things, but resin for fine miniatures is...less than palatable. Imagine this- a resin-cast mini is pulled out of the mold while still warm and the sword is slightly bent(because the workers are just cranking these things out, as usual). Then it fully cures/cools in that position, giving the resin a memory in that shape. Then you buy that mini, take it out the blister, and then heat it up so as to straighten the weapon. And it does straighten out..but then, over time, it ever so slightly returns just a tad bit to its set memory. Just slightly. And so it is always just annoyingly, slightly off. Then there is the fragility of finer parts that would be sturdy enough in metal(cabling, wisps of hair, feathers, strapping, other fine details that stick off here and there), but that will be super fragile in resin. While I am not the greatest fan of metal, at least it is sturdy, and I am used to working with it so it's not a big deal. Besides, I like, have to clean up a handful of metal models in my entire army of a hundred+ models or so. My concern is only about the smaller, human-sized models, as anything bigger will likely have bigger, clunkier parts anyways.

As to working on resin, it is dead easy...when the castings are good. I guess it will depend on the type of resin used, and the casting quality. If Forgeworld is anything to go by, this will be a nightmare. No matter how cool the models, the casting is the key. Hopefully GW will be figuring out their casting better than Forgeworld has on the smaller, finer parts. Anybody who has ordered any significant amount of Imperial Guard infantry, and has had the fun of working on shifted lasgun barrels, command squad swords and other fine bits made all the finer by the caster not doing things properly, knows exactly what I am talking about. Paying a premium for a character model with fine parts that may not be cast well is not the most thrilling of prospects. Maybe they'll figure it out though. We'll have to wait and see.

PsyberWolf
04-04-2011, 04:50
Anybody who has ordered any significant amount of Imperial Guard infantry, and has had the fun of working on shifted lasgun barrels, command squad swords and other fine bits made all the finer by the caster not doing things properly, knows exactly what I am talking about. Paying a premium for a character model with fine parts that may not be cast well is not the most thrilling of prospects. Maybe they'll figure it out though. We'll have to wait and see.

So true about the shifted or mialigned casting though I have seen it primarily on Space Marines... I don't have alot of confidence in GW doing a good job on QC'ing this stuff before it goes out the door.

Regardless of what ppl say their quality practices are terrible. Sure they'll send a replacement if you give them a call but you have to understand that it is a big expense. How long do you think that will be the case with the cost cutting that's going on? If they could cut their "main recruiting centers" back to one-man stores how long do you think the "we'll replace anything your not satisfied with - no questions asked" policy will last?

Shipmonkey
04-04-2011, 06:33
Regardless of what ppl say their quality practices are terrible.

Based on the multiple companies I've purchased minis from, I'ld rate GW as one of the best for quality. If you think they're bad, I hope you never buy a mini from either Ironwind Metals or Mongoose. You'll have a coronary on the spot.

eldargal
04-04-2011, 07:48
In 16 years of collecting, 50k points of Eldar, lots of other bits I would say I've bought several hundred blisters at minimum. I don't recall a single one being faulty in any way.

Rosstifer
04-04-2011, 07:57
GW has always happily replaced any faulty castings I've had. In fact, I got a free box of Chosen due to one being miscast. I greenstuffed the worst, stuck it in a back rank, and got 10 for the price of 5.

carlisimo
04-04-2011, 20:41
Will we really see the same kind of resin that e.g. Forgeworld uses?

We don't know... but the most probable outcome is that GW will choose a resin independent of what Forgeworld uses right now, and both GW and FW will switch to that type. As has been said in this thread, their production lines are so close together that it'd be silly for them to use different supplies.

To answer other people's questions... quality control isn't about what material you're using, it's about your budget and target market. Short-run items intended for experienced modelers will have less of it. Volume sellers for little kids will be more controlled. I would expect Forgeworld to continue to be less user-friendly, and I would expect Games Workshop products to remain decent and with a good return policy.

Personally I'd like resin instead of metal, if some experts could just clear up our fears about resin dust. It does make me nervous.

Fawful
04-04-2011, 20:52
You could always buy a dust mask for the resin dust, it's not like they are exspensive. And I can't imagine breathing in dust from trimming metal and plastic figures is very good for you either :)

Venkh
04-04-2011, 21:21
GW Store Saturday afternoon

OK everyone out of the store. Timmy's gonna start filing his new kroxigor.

Not gonna happen. They must have found a new material to work with.

ColShaw
04-04-2011, 21:28
In 16 years of collecting, 50k points of Eldar, lots of other bits I would say I've bought several hundred blisters at minimum. I don't recall a single one being faulty in any way.

Wow... you're fortunate. I commend GW for being, in general, pretty high quality in terms of casts, but I've still had some odd things over the years.

-Mordian Iron Guardsman with missing Lasgun barrel (repaired by sawing off the vestigial nub that was there and replacing it with a Cadian Lasgun barrel).

-Battlefleet Gothic Chaos Cruiser Hull only half-complete (asked for replacement).

-Entirely missing components (a metal Dreadnought with no feet, a Chimera missing its back-door sprue).

There are some others. And, of course, all the bends and imperfections that happen when a kit that's a little too big/long gets crammed into a blister pack.

But in general, GW is good on quality.

tu33y
04-04-2011, 22:33
i was told TODAY that all metals will go to resin, and many extra staff have been recruited for just this reason.
this is apparently a TOP TOP secret within GW/FW whoever and the impression i got was people would be mortified if it got out (and it seems to have) because people would just stop buying metals.

i heartily recomend people do just that for a while...

carlisimo
05-04-2011, 02:36
I’ve had good luck with the quality of metal figures, other than Battlefleet Gothic’s larger ships which are often terrible. I have many more complaints about plastics, namely when the two sides of the mold are misaligned.

Thanks for the resin info. I work in the building industry so I’m familiar with asbestos… and some people make resin dust sound like it works in a similar way. So I’m probably more scared than I need to be.

Elanthanis
05-04-2011, 02:56
I'd like to see how they compose their new models. I had a bad history of metal models being defective, most notably the neck socket on a wood elf dragon back when I was 13. They recommended at the time that I attempt to greenstuff it together.

(And thus my propensity for remaking Games Workshop dragons was born ;) )

I've had several defective models, from witch elves for my wife that didn't fill in completely to random errors with faces in molds. Having been turned off Forgeworld after an incredibly difficult to clean Avatar, I'm not sure I'm sold on resin either yet. We'll need to see the first batch.

New Cult King
05-04-2011, 04:16
This could be a perfect opportunity for GW to lower their prices across the board and start getting some business back. If they can maintain the same level of profit because their productions costs will (presumably) be cheaper with this new "resin", and start selling more units at the same time...

Hellebore
05-04-2011, 04:27
This could be a perfect opportunity for GW to lower their prices across the board and start getting some business back. If they can maintain the same level of profit because their productions costs will (presumably) be cheaper with this new "resin", and start selling more units at the same time...

I can see the advertising leadup to this:

"Games Workshop has spent the last few months furiously researching and developing a new and improved casting method for our metal model range. This method involves our patented plastiresin material. It is lighter than metal and will accept far higher levels of detail ensuring that you the customer will receive only the best miniatures. Price rises to follow."

:shifty:

Hellebore

Galatan
05-04-2011, 08:13
This is all very great and fun for GW, but I'm really not happy with this piece of news. Why? Because as a painter I really like the 'feel' of a metal miniature n my hands. Every time I paint a metal miniature I enjoy it from start to end, because for he amount of detail and the weight in my hands (for this very reason my best painted miniatures have always been metal). I'm afraid resign won't be able to replace that :( .

Havarel
05-04-2011, 08:28
I admit I am holding off buying a hellcannon purely because I would love it to be in Resin; can't face another in metal. And I think I might just die from joy at the thought of resin greater daemons...

yabbadabba
05-04-2011, 08:30
This is all very great and fun for GW, but I'm really not happy with this piece of news. Why? Because as a painter I really like the 'feel' of a metal miniature n my hands. Every time I paint a metal miniature I enjoy it from start to end, because for he amount of detail and the weight in my hands (for this very reason my best painted miniatures have always been metal). I'm afraid resign won't be able to replace that:(. Welcome to progress. Many people said the same went companies started going plastic. Although not directed at you, I distinctly remember people predicting the fall and abject humiliation of GW for abandoning lead and going to plastic/pewter.

People always feel uncomfortable with changes they don't want. Hopefully after a while you might become more comfortable with resin mate.

Bigglesworth
05-04-2011, 08:59
Some people may know that Gw have been making resin baricades (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440312a&prodId=prod1510000)for a few years now, though I have no experience with them mabye somone else does? perhaps they will use a similar material unless theys source them strangely.

illumin4tus
05-04-2011, 09:05
The first sign of any resin dust "poisoning" would be dizziness. .

I dont think poisoning is the issue (unless you eat them). The problem with fine, particulate matter, is them getting into the lungs where it can cause all kinds of problems later on (cf asbestos, car exhausts etc).

MarcoSkoll
05-04-2011, 09:09
Every time I paint a metal miniature I enjoy it from start to end, because of the amount of detail and the weight in my hands. I'm afraid resign won't be able to replace that.
Resin, at least normally, is sharper in detail than you can get from whitemetal (it casts cooler, so less heat shrink after casting), so you'll lose nothing of the detail.

But yes, you will lose the reassuring weight. Despite reasonable experience of resin models, I do still find them eerily light in comparison - often even lighter than sytrene (depending on exact resin).

Galatan
05-04-2011, 09:23
Welcome to progress. Many people said the same went companies started going plastic. Although not directed at you, I distinctly remember people predicting the fall and abject humiliation of GW for abandoning lead and going to plastic/pewter.

People always feel uncomfortable with changes they don't want. Hopefully after a while you might become more comfortable with resin mate.

Ya, I kinda vaguely remember that. That was kinda wierd. I only just got into the hobby then, so I couldn't really care/understand what people were talking about and even though I would never predict something drastic as 'the fall of GW' (If I only got a penny for each time someone said that.....), I can still kinda understand their pain.

From my point of view, not all is lost though. I'll probably load up on some metals from my local GW and there are plenty of other manufacturers out their that will be able to satisfy my need for painting metal when I don't feel like painting a GW miniature (infinity really has caught my eye lately).


Resin, at least normally, is sharper in detail than you can get from whitemetal (it casts cooler, so less heat shrink after casting), so you'll lose nothing of the detail.

But yes, you will lose the reassuring weight. Despite reasonable experience of resin models, I do still find them eerily light in comparison - often even lighter than sytrene (depending on exact resin).

Very true, I think FW (and a few smaller companies) is a testament to that, but I think I just have to wait and see what kind of resin they are going to use.

BramGaunt
05-04-2011, 10:43
Even though the reassuring weight part is true, I still have flashbacks of the time my Metal Wraithlord fell upon a FW Warboss on Bike because someone bumped the table. The Warboss was beyond saving and the freehands my Wraithlord held... ah well..

Grimmeth
05-04-2011, 11:03
Less top heavy models? Count me in, price issues not-with-standing of course.

Poseidal
05-04-2011, 12:54
Will this carry to SG?

While I like metal for detailed, 28mm mansize figures, I find the ships in BFG rather heavy on their flying stands. If they're somewhat lighter in resin that would be good.

Not sure about the detail parts being sturdy enough though.

Osbad
05-04-2011, 13:47
this is apparently a TOP TOP secret within GW/FW whoever and the impression i got was people would be mortified if it got out (and it seems to have) because people would just stop buying metals.

Given the robust state of the OOP Citadel Miniatures secondary market this seems like an odd impression for GW to have.

Personally I would have thought the opposite to be the case and once the news gets out people will snap them up because this is the last chance to get them!

I know I put a bit on ebay for a couple of metal blisters I had been thinking about for a while (my first new metal GW models for 6 years!) simply because I know I won't be able to get them at all soon, and I'd rather get them and sell them if I didn't want them, than regret not having them in the first place. Multiply that effect out a few thousand times and I would be amazed if they don't pretty much sell out all their old metal stock pretty quickly.

Still, this wouldn't be the first time my understanding of the laws of economics, and GW's understanding were at odds!

Achaylus72
05-04-2011, 14:24
I spoke to my local GW store manager and he assures me that if Resin is used the Store will no be allowed under the NSW Occupational Health and Safety to allow Resin models to be built within the store, the issue is Resin dust, also he assures me that Insurance Premiums in Public Liability will go up.

Chaos and Evil
05-04-2011, 15:03
...if inhaled they can attach themselves to you lungs (like asbestos does) and cause scarring to occur.

Just wear a dust mask.
That is a hugely irresponsible thing to say about a product primarily intended for sale to children.

thinkerman
05-04-2011, 15:15
I don’t personally mind, resin, metal - all the same really, no doubt a price rise to cover this though

I'm keen on resin being used for some of the range though: think of the gothic ships in resin and not metal..... no more flying bases snapping, no more heavy paint scratching and might even get some resin conversion bits from forge world one day - Thinking Badab war chapter options for battlebarges and please the Rex!)

Wouldn’t mind seeing the Inquisitor range re-visited in resin also - maybe with a limited run on certain kits (marine helmets, assassins, nids etc)

All this over the top 'RESIN KILLS' is utter rubbish, as many have said unless you snorting the stuff or sanding entire models to nothing but dust and breathing it all in you have nothing to worry about - common sense people!

carlisimo
05-04-2011, 16:08
When we talk about the resin dust, it's not the chemicals in the resin you have to worry about it the dust particles themselves. If you were to look at them under a microscope they look like tiny shards of glass, so if inhaled they can attach themselves to you lungs (like asbestos does) and cause scarring to occur.

Just wear a dust mask.

The typical dust mask does not stop asbestos fibers, so let's avoid making any unwarranted connections between asbestos and resin dust. It would make resin dust sound more scary, not less.

I'll probably just stop sanding altogether and stick to using my knife (scraping instead of sanding, cutting instead of sawing).

Inquisitor Kallus
05-04-2011, 16:52
I don’t personally mind, resin, metal - all the same really, no doubt a price rise to cover this though

I'm keen on resin being used for some of the range though: think of the gothic ships in resin and not metal..... no more flying bases snapping, no more heavy paint scratching and might even get some resin conversion bits from forge world one day - Thinking Badab war chapter options for battlebarges and please the Rex!)

Wouldn’t mind seeing the Inquisitor range re-visited in resin also - maybe with a limited run on certain kits (marine helmets, assassins, nids etc)

All this over the top 'RESIN KILLS' is utter rubbish, as many have said unless you snorting the stuff or sanding entire models to nothing but dust and breathing it all in you have nothing to worry about - common sense people!

It IS a dangerous material just as MDF and is under the COHS (control of hazardous substances) lists as such. It may not be instantly dangerous but over time the particles can cause damage, or indeed if ingested/inhaled in large amounts.

You Thinkerman, need to be a little more true to your name and actually read up about the subject instead of just giving your 'opinion' on the subject. I have a friend who is a scenery maker who had severe respiratory problems whilst working with resin (both cured and uncured) and was advised by his doctor to stop. I also know of a number of people who have become hypersensitive to other materials/chemicals when exposed to them for periods of time. You need to be careful when dealing with resin, and I hightly recommend wetting it before working on it as it allows the resin particles to clump as opposed to letting them drift around as 'dust'. Also always, at the very least, wear a dust mask. I would also recommend working outside, if you cant then have some sort of ventilation.

thinkerman
05-04-2011, 17:16
I totally agree you need to be careful when dealing with it, but there is risk in dealing with everything and it’s as simple as this - common sense is the key - (read, understand what you’re doing, plan and execute)

If it were so toxic it wouldn’t be on sale nor would many other companies be producing kits and other products in resin

It’s down to a simple choice, you either buy resin products or you don’t.

I'm sure those that don’t want to buy resin products can have a great time converting those models they want from existing plastic kits

Inquisitor Kallus
05-04-2011, 17:27
Its not necessarily 'toxicity'. Just look at cigarettes,........theyre on sale and can give you lung cancer amongst over things over a prolonged period of time. That said, I have quite a few resin products myself, and I don't have a problem with it being used as such, PROVIDED that there is enough Health and safety information and warnings on the packaging and staff know what the risks are whilst being responsible in the selling of their product.

Coasty
05-04-2011, 19:11
Toxicity isn't the problem; it's the small size and number of dust particles. It's like using MDF or glass fibre.

Lungs + little bits of foreign matter = bad time all 'round.

See if you can get a decent respirator on Ebay or something, though, to be honest, you'll more likely get cancer from your food before you get it from the resin.

Personally, I hate resin and always have. As a small scale miltary modeller I've come to associate it with being excessively pricey and requiring unnecessary amounts of repair work.

ModelCalamity
05-04-2011, 19:40
I don't believe all resins have these issues.

I fairly sure that GW wouldn't use anything that would increase the legal minimum age of products.

shabbadoo
05-04-2011, 22:47
One more bit. If GW were very smart, they would feature an informative article(for those who are familiar, and not familiar with resin) on the new resin product in White Dwarf illustrating its pros and cons, showing how to work with it(techniques/tools), any hazards associated with it, how sturdy it is, etc. Basically, be honest with people and tell them what they can expect.

yabbadabba
05-04-2011, 23:11
One more bit. If GW were very smart, they would feature an informative article(for those who are familiar, and not familiar with resin) on the new resin product in White Dwarf illustrating its pros and cons, showing how to work with it(techniques/tools), any hazards associated with it, how sturdy it is, etc. Basically, be honest with people and tell them what they can expect. While obviously bigging it up, I think they did the same with the change from lead to pewter.

Achaylus72
06-04-2011, 01:46
I said it before and i'll say it again, those issues regarding OH & S and Public Liability will have to be addressed.

It only takes one worker or customer to get a lung complaint in years to come then GW will be liable for lawsuits, especially medical compensation, they have to really look into resin, especially giving it into the hands of kids that have no idea about the potential future hazards.

Let me state this, if you need bio-hazard equipment to build stuff then GW will get it's backside kicked in 10 years time as the first wave of lawsuits begin to come in as 22-28 year olds are inflicted with medical complaints linked with using resin.

GW should just decide to use normal plastic and be done with it.


While obviously bigging it up, I think they did the same with the change from lead to pewter.

Yes but back in those days we were not a litigious society as we are today.

DasTwitcH
06-04-2011, 02:23
I said it before and i'll say it again, those issues regarding OH & S and Public Liability will have to be addressed.

It only takes one worker or customer to get a lung complaint in years to come then GW will be liable for lawsuits, especially medical compensation, they have to really look into resin, especially giving it into the hands of kids that have no idea about the potential future hazards.

Let me state this, if you need bio-hazard equipment to build stuff then GW will get it's backside kicked in 10 years time as the first wave of lawsuits begin to come in as 22-28 year olds are inflicted with medical complaints linked with using resin.

GW should just decide to use normal plastic and be done with it.

Mate, how about you stop being so alarmist?

If what you say is true, ANY GAMES COMPANY that ever uses/used resin would be up for a good suing. They're talking about microscopic amounts here, and people have said several times in this very thread that the threat is pretty much non-existent, especially somewhere as well ventilated as a games store.

Saying OMG TEH REZNZ IS TEH DANGRUS is not only counterproductive, but spreads that panic without the forethought that goes with becoming informed.

How about listening to the guys who work with the stuff and know whereof they speak instead of some random retail monkey hmm?

illumin4tus
06-04-2011, 02:26
I have been buying metal miniatures from Citadel for 30 years.
To be honest ... I'm gutted.

I feel your pain but there is always ebay (other secondhand markets are available).
Now that I am solvent, I am slowly accumulating all of the figures I could not buy in the 80's. That's a lot of catching up to do.


I've been working with this stuff for 20 years now and have no adverse health issues (I had psoriasis before I started working with resin).

Are you claiming that resin cures psoriasis? :)

Steve54
06-04-2011, 08:54
I said it before and i'll say it again, those issues regarding OH & S and Public Liability will have to be addressed.

It only takes one worker or customer to get a lung complaint in years to come then GW will be liable for lawsuits, especially medical compensation, they have to really look into resin, especially giving it into the hands of kids that have no idea about the potential future hazards.

Let me state this, if you need bio-hazard equipment to build stuff then GW will get it's backside kicked in 10 years time as the first wave of lawsuits begin to come in as 22-28 year olds are inflicted with medical complaints linked with using resin.

GW should just decide to use normal plastic and be done with it.

Thats quite melodramatic - a safety warning ie ventilated area etc would suffice. Just like superglue, which 'little timmy' has managed to use on Gw kits without dieing for decades

Bloodknight
06-04-2011, 09:04
as in swords and blades can be thinner,

Yeah, I don't actually see that as an upside for gaming pieces (which is what most people will use them for), more as a source for annoyance when those tiny swords snap off more easily. Transporting models with easily breakable parts like that is a bitch.




don't believe all resins have these issues.

I fairly sure that GW wouldn't use anything that would increase the legal minimum age of products.

It probably doesn't. However, Mom might get abit upset if she sees that Timmy needs to wear a respirator to build his tiny men and that he'll probably not be allowed to build them in the store due to health concerns.

yabbadabba
06-04-2011, 10:05
Yes but back in those days we were not a litigious society as we are today. Sorry, but I think that you are missing my point and putting the cart before the horse.


Thats quite melodramatic - a safety warning ie ventilated area etc would suffice. Just like superglue, which 'little timmy' has managed to use on Gw kits without dieing for decades Or even wet filing. And thats if GW are using a resin that is hazardous and haven't found a resin-like material that will do the job instead.

Sai-Lauren
06-04-2011, 12:56
It's not the resin composition itself that's the problem, it's the fine dust that working it produces, causing Pneumoconiosis (the dust gets into the lungs and sits the alveoli, preventing oxygen transfer).

With Forge World it's not really a problem because they're low volume and aimed at more mature modellers, who almost certainly know how to handle it.

GW aims at selling bulk volumes to pre-teens, especially newbies, who're going to want to get their models home and build them immediately.

Think how much work you need to do to get a horde army up to scratch. Now think how much resin dust will be created doing it in future.

DasTwitcH
06-04-2011, 13:03
Simple question:

Considering GWs obsession with making as much money as possible from as wide a demographic as possible...

Considering their experience via Forgeworld and watching other manufacturers who use resin...

Considering this has obviously been planned for a fair while, and is apparently underway and costing them money to change over right now...

Do you think maybe they've thought of all of these issues and allowed for them, or found a way around them?

Much as GWs business sense is generally questionable, releasing a potentially lethal product onto a market aimed primarily at kids and teens and subsequently opening themselves up to a LOT of lawsuits etc would probably not have got the all clear from the powers that be. They're dumb, but I seriously doubt they're THAT dumb...

Llew
06-04-2011, 15:16
When I was with GW they were very safety conscious, more so in the UK than Memphis (Memphis does [or did] skirt around safety issues).

I would say just basing a company in Memphis is skirting around some safety issues. ;)

PatrikW
06-04-2011, 16:00
GW aims at selling bulk volumes to pre-teens, especially newbies, who're going to want to get their models home and build them immediately.

Think how much work you need to do to get a horde army up to scratch. Now think how much resin dust will be created doing it in future.

its fortune then than its only the metal models that are changing and I cant think of any current horde army that is still based on metal, can you?

The metal models in many armies today are only a handful and i don't think that the "newbies" will suddenly decide that they need lots more of them and file them down too dust just because they are made of a new material.

carlisimo
06-04-2011, 19:54
No, no horde armies, unless Dark Eldar wrack-based armies count (they’re not out yet, but are rumored to be metal). You can make an Imperial Guard metal horde army if you want to, but it isn’t required.

Lots of people never convert metal models, so this could work. But there is one thing GW should do – find a way to cast resin models without giant blocks attached to them. I know they’re part of the process, and can probably be cut with a knife, but GW should try to eliminate the possibility that kids (or any inexperienced modelers) will take a saw to them and create lots of dust. Just a couple of allergic reactions and they’d get sued.

Achaylus72
07-04-2011, 01:40
Mate, how about you stop being so alarmist?

If what you say is true, ANY GAMES COMPANY that ever uses/used resin would be up for a good suing. They're talking about microscopic amounts here, and people have said several times in this very thread that the threat is pretty much non-existent, especially somewhere as well ventilated as a games store.

Saying OMG TEH REZNZ IS TEH DANGRUS is not only counterproductive, but spreads that panic without the forethought that goes with becoming informed.

How about listening to the guys who work with the stuff and know whereof they speak instead of some random retail monkey hmm?

You may not be old enough to remeber, but i remeber a film flick doing the rounds in the early 70's that was filmed in the 1950's it was how fantastic Asbestos was, they showed kids playing in the stuff, and folks bagging the stuff and so on it was filmed in Wittenoon at the time the largest Blue Astestos mine in the world.

Today it is a ghost town, the town has been declared a bio-hazzard.

Also i hold a Occupational Health and Safety Certificate in the Construction and Chemical Industries and i also am a Safety Officer in regards to industrial strength chemicals, so don't tell me i am being alarmist.

Ludaman
07-04-2011, 03:19
I think he can still call you alarmist, just not an uninformed alarmist.

fracas
07-04-2011, 03:42
The GW games i play are predominantly metal: Warmaster, BFG, and LotR. I have an all metal SoB (40k) and Khand (LotR) army already.
I wonder if these game systems will switch as well.

Bayru
07-04-2011, 04:24
Also i hold a Occupational Health and Safety Certificate in the Construction and Chemical Industries and i also am a Safety Officer in regards to industrial strength chemicals, so don't tell me i am being alarmist.

Let's read the health advisory;

May cause irritation to sensitive skin. Wash
hands with soap and water after use.
• May be harmful if swallowed.
• Eye irritant. In case of contact, flush with water.
Contact physician.
• Keep out of reach of children.
• When sanding cured putty and substrate, use
protective eye wear and dust mask.
For additional health and safety information,
consult a Material Safety Data Sheet.

Hmm, oops, that was for green stuff ... OMG, look at all the lawsuits against GW! *NOT*
As a professional in the chemical industries it's my opinion that it should come naturally to you to check the safety prescriptions BEFORE you use a product. As you are so seemingly unaware of the hazards present in the GW kiddie store, and probably your own home since anyone probably has a small amount of greenstuff in their possession if they're mildly dedicated to the hobby, I would dare to call you negligent.

To be honest, I don't think a company dissolving kids brains with glue-fumes needs to take into account the longterm benefits towards decreasing the world's overpopulation problems when they want to bring out cheap-ass miniatures ... to all applefans though; do not work on mini's next to your mac, it might void the warranty, just like smoking next to it does.

Apart from all this nonsense, I hope they abandon metal in favour of plastic. I'm dreaming of the day GW announces a full-plastic wood-elf release, with a modular forest dragon that has interchangeable parts with the high elf dragon, a full plastic eternal guard box, and a mounted spellweaver. The only thing I do want to have in metal (and not resin) is the direct order Great Eagle.

Charax
07-04-2011, 06:22
urgh. I *really* hate working with resin. On the plus side, if this extends to all GW's ranges I may be able to pick up a couple of Resin 54mm Eisenhorns to chuck on eBay after they resume metals production

Hendarion
07-04-2011, 07:20
At all those who say that a dust-mask will keep you safe from resin-dust: It doesn't. It does protect you from the particles that fly around while you are sanding it, yes. But it will not protect you from those particles that fly and settle somewhere in your appartment and will be whirled up much later again by either some wind from an opened window, a vacuum cleaner. I will settle as dust on every surface in your apparment a simple hand-sweep will whirl it up. HELLO LUNG! It will even be in your pillow in your bed!

So if you wanna be safe from resin dust, you actually do have to leave your home AND wear a mask!
A mask alone will do nothing! Nothing!


And to those who think resin is easier to work with than metal:
That is wrong! Resin takes colour much worse than metal does, even with a primer, even when having scrubbed off the release-agent first.
Resin bends worse than metal, just because your room in summer might have 30° it starts to bend on itself. My room does, my minis do bend. It sucks.
Resin breaks worse than metal or plastic when dropping it. It just breaks, it won't bend. It might even splinter into multiple parts. Had that, hate it.
Resin glues better than metal? Uh-oh, it does not. There might be some good glues, but basically you still have to pin every single bit, as it else might fall off from a single tip-over.
Resin has bubbles. Lots of them.
Resin has vents and they are much bigger than the metal vents.
Resin is ill-shaped after casting or from transport. We see that everywhere.

You think GW is going to sell that? Not gonna believe it before I see a GW-resin-mini in my own hands.
That they might shift to some artificial plastic-like material? Yea, maybe. Simple resin? Doubt it strongly.

spaint2k
07-04-2011, 08:23
At all those who say that a dust-mask will keep you safe from resin-dust: It doesn't. It does protect you from the particles that fly around while you are sanding it, yes. But it will not protect you from those particles that fly and settle somewhere in your appartment and will be whirled up much later again by either some wind from an opened window, a vacuum cleaner. I will settle as dust on every surface in your apparment a simple hand-sweep will whirl it up. HELLO LUNG! It will even be in your pillow in your bed!


So glad you said that. I've been thinking it ever since the first person mentioned the word "mask".

I also hate working with resin. I never file it or sand it, except under a tap. I use a knife to cut mould lines off directly into a garbage can and pray that I'm not spreading microscopic molecules all over my house. And I hate trying to remove mould-release agent from resin models. I never seem to get rid of all of it, and generally only find out when I'm well into the painting stage.

Steve54
07-04-2011, 08:54
To compare resin model kits and asbestos is alarmist and ridiculous, judging by the hysterical reaction by some to resin is most gluing+greenstuff work undertaken in full biohazard suits? If so is GW not missing a trick not selling GW logo biohazard suits in child sizes

Sai-Lauren
07-04-2011, 09:05
Considering this has obviously been planned for a fair while, and is apparently underway and costing them money to change over right now...

Which is the other thing - a production delay between finishing metal production and starting resin production isn't just costing them the money to retool. It's costing them the sales of all the metal figures they would have produced during the down period, and likely future sales as people get turned off GW because the figures they want aren't available.

If they are moving to resin, then if anything, I would have expected the first resin figures to have already been released, and then for the metal production to be slowly closed down as moulds transfer over.

Shutting down figure production only makes sense if there's some major issue that they have to fix, and cannot keep the production going around the work.

Chapters Unwritten
07-04-2011, 09:23
In my experience at GW, quality control has more to do with a managers weekly/monthly targets than producing a good product. Plastics are fairly easy to get good quality from, once the tool's parameters are set it's mostly automatic from there.

With resin casting there is more labor involved and is not as "automatic", there is more room for human error so you might get a large variance of quality which GW will have to account for.



The amount of dust a hobbyist will come into contact with is minimal. As long as you are not huffing the resin dust like cocaine you'll be fine. If you are worried, all it takes is a white painters mask and that will take care of it.

When you are done sanding/filing just clean up your area with a cloth and a cleaner like Windex (also open a window) and you'll have no worries about resin dust.

Like I posted before, the first sign of any issues with breathing resin dust would be dizzyness. Just step away and get some fresh air.This still bothers me. I work on my models in the same place I sleep. Sure, breathing it for the few minutes it takes to file the model is not a big deal. But I will be basically living in that dust unless I clean my bedroom top to bottom every time I file a model.

Now I know it's not all horror stories, but let's be realistic here: one material doesn't shatter, can be bent back into shape easily if it warps, and can survive a drop, while the other one makes you sick to work on, needs to be scrubbed up before you can really paint or glue it, and now you're telling me I will need to wear a mask, open a window, and wipe down the entire area every time I file a model.

I don't like the idea at all. I saw some remarks earlier about all-plastic sprues full of special characters which would be cut via automation; honestly I'd rather have that (or a $50 "here is a plastic figure of every character in army X" box set) then to have to go forward with resin. I loathe resin. My FW dreadnought became detritus for several objective markers after he came apart in my hand and fell onto the floor, shattered. After all the aggravation I had gone through to assemble him, that made me swear off resin for the rest of my life no matter what.

I will be using these excellent plastic kits to convert counts-as models instead of EVER buying one of these things, if it is anything like Forge World.


And to those who think resin is easier to work with than metal:
That is wrong! Resin takes colour much worse than metal does, even with a primer, even when having scrubbed off the release-agent first.
Resin bends worse than metal, just because your room in summer might have 30° it starts to bend on itself. My room does, my minis do bend. It sucks.
Resin breaks worse than metal or plastic when dropping it. It just breaks, it won't bend. It might even splinter into multiple parts. Had that, hate it.
Resin glues better than metal? Uh-oh, it does not. There might be some good glues, but basically you still have to pin every single bit, as it else might fall off from a single tip-over.
Resin has bubbles. Lots of them.
Resin has vents and they are much bigger than the metal vents.
Resin is ill-shaped after casting or from transport. We see that everywhere.Amen! Resin is ********!

yabbadabba
07-04-2011, 09:26
Which is the other thing - a production delay between finishing metal production and starting resin production isn't just costing them the money to retool. It's costing them the sales of all the metal figures they would have produced during the down period, and likely future sales as people get turned off GW because the figures they want aren't available. No it won't. Metal figures do not sell in vast unpredictable quantities. As I have said earlier, production on some lines will have stopped as much as a year ago while the fastest selling lines will have had extra stock made to carry over. If GW switch to resin then they want as little metal left in the business as possible, so will probably aim to seel out somewhere between 5-14 days before the resin gets released. A 3 month run down allows them to sell through as much as possible, put the full production capacity over to resin to allow them an almost 100% swap from metal to resin in the sales channels, if they choose to go that route like they did with lead.

I'd read that as saying that they have at least 3 months supply in the pipeline already. The actual transfer process from metal to resin in the sales channels could however go a number of ways.

bringerofdecay
07-04-2011, 09:37
No it won't. Metal figures do not sell in vast unpredictable quantities. As I have said earlier, production on some lines will have stopped as much as a year ago while the fastest selling lines will have had extra stock made to carry over. If GW switch to resin then they want as little metal left in the business as possible, so will probably aim to seel out somewhere between 5-14 days before the resin gets released. A 3 month run down allows them to sell through as much as possible, put the full production capacity over to resin to allow them an almost 100% swap from metal to resin in the sales channels, if they choose to go that route like they did with lead.

I'd read that as saying that they have at least 3 months supply in the pipeline already. The actual transfer process from metal to resin in the sales channels could however go a number of ways.

not only that but they've been recalling slow selling blisters for years to re-cast in to faster selling blisters (which is what they can continue to do until they run down their stock of metal), I think this has been a very long time coming.

Chaos and Evil
07-04-2011, 09:40
To compare resin model kits and asbestos is alarmist and ridiculous, judging by the hysterical reaction by some to resin is most gluing+greenstuff work undertaken in full biohazard suits? If so is GW not missing a trick not selling GW logo biohazard suits in child sizes
Eh, resin is more dangerous than some are saying, and less dangerous than others are saying.

I personally wouldn't let my kid sand or file resin, dust mask or no.

Chapters Unwritten
07-04-2011, 10:19
I think he can still call you alarmist, just not an uninformed alarmist.To be fair, the fact that there is a need to say there are certain "guys who work with the stuff" whose opinion must be consulted beforehand is a sign that it is not a viable mainstream option.

Some of us have children. I suspect the people going "it's not a big deal just open a window and buy a mask" don't.

Steve54
07-04-2011, 10:39
I've got kids -though not old enough to play toy soldiers yet and I agree resin dust is a legitimate concern what I don't agree with is the comparisons with asbestos, dire warnings of death+lawsuits and other alarmist reactions.

Would I allow my kids to sand resin etc - no, at least not till they are old enough to understand the precautions+risks (probably a similar age to when their attention would be drawn to FW nowdays) but then again I wouldn't allow them unsupervised superglue use (or greenstuff) until they were older either.

Chapters Unwritten
07-04-2011, 10:46
I guess the thing I have to bring up is, sure, green stuff is toxic, for example. But there's lots of young kids in this hobby and most of them probably don't even know green stuff exists, or what it's even for.

You turn that on it's head pretty quickly when the commanders of all the armies (and some of the better models in the game) are made from the toxic stuff, instead of an optional hobby tool.

yabbadabba
07-04-2011, 10:50
I've got kids -though not old enough to play toy soldiers yet and I agree resin dust is a legitimate concern what I don't agree with is the comparisons with asbestos, dire warnings of death+lawsuits and other alarmist reactions.

Would I allow my kids to sand resin etc - no, at least not till they are old enough to understand the precautions+risks (probably a similar age to when their attention would be drawn to FW nowdays) but then again I wouldn't allow them unsupervised superglue use (or greenstuff) until they were older either. I agree Steve. Any parent, and any responsible human @Chapters Unwritten, would take every precaution to ensure children are in a position to benefit most from any situation.
What we are assuming is that a) GW will use a hazardous resin and have not found something different and/or that b) GW will not adapt their business practices to cope with selling a hazardous material and/or that c) Resin will only replace a tiny minority of models and the plastic range will expand to take up the slack.

I say lets wait and see before we reach for the nerf bat.

Steve54
07-04-2011, 11:24
Regardless of the properties of the resin this will probably be the end of GW purchases for me as the change from metal-resin will most likely be the end of specialist games

stephan harkon
07-04-2011, 11:27
Why all the doom and gloom?
The new GW resins *might* be like FWs, but then again they *might* not...
Only until we see the quality of the new resin models can we make a judgement on them, for all we know the new resins could have very little clean up compared to existing metals and need less safety precautions than current FW resin.
I for one look forward to this change...

Hermanesq
07-04-2011, 11:54
Coming this Christmas, Games workshop recommend its new

'Citadel dust mask'
Shaped like a Kasrkin's rebreather mask, useful to go with your hand flamer shaped spray gun.

Actually I want one now already, I wonder if I could suggest that to Dave Thomas...


As for the resin models, Can't wait, Luckily I have a small does of common sense, so hopefully wont have any problems

Cresistauead
07-04-2011, 12:17
Why all the doom and gloom?
The new GW resins *might* be like FWs, but then again they *might* not...

This. The carcinogenic urethane used by FW is just one possibility. I would imagine they are going for acryl or polyester based resin with some kind of plastic as filler material. But guessing is as valuable as the doomsaying. Well, I'm waiting for news with baited breath, this will be really exciting change.

Achaylus72
07-04-2011, 12:54
So i am alarmist, who here will now go to there local GW store and sit and make their Resin figures without a dust mask, who here will play in a GW store for hours at a time week in, and week out knowing that Resin Dust is slowly accumilating in the carpets on the shelves and on the general store fittings.

Also what kind of message does it send when a person walks by a GW and sees that everyone having to wear a mask to build and paint as so not to suck in a lungful of resin dust that has accumilated everywhere and that person sees folks wearing masks whilst they play.

Also some kid brings in his parents to a GW store and they ask why the folks are wearing and they tell the parents the truth, i'd grab my kid and walk out.

Sai-Lauren
07-04-2011, 13:19
its fortune then than its only the metal models that are changing and I cant think of any current horde army that is still based on metal, can you?

Hmm, I guess I missed the release of plastic Vostroyans and Sororitas. ;)

And not really horde, but for Eldar, every Aspect Warrior bar Dire Avengers is metal, and most people don't take Guardians because they perform poorly. Also, most of the High Elves are metal.



No it won't. Metal figures do not sell in vast unpredictable quantities. As I have said earlier, production on some lines will have stopped as much as a year ago while the fastest selling lines will have had extra stock made to carry over. If GW switch to resin then they want as little metal left in the business as possible, so will probably aim to seel out somewhere between 5-14 days before the resin gets released. A 3 month run down allows them to sell through as much as possible, put the full production capacity over to resin to allow them an almost 100% swap from metal to resin in the sales channels, if they choose to go that route like they did with lead.

I'd read that as saying that they have at least 3 months supply in the pipeline already. The actual transfer process from metal to resin in the sales channels could however go a number of ways.

An interesting trick, don't the furnaces and moulds basically run 24/7 already? ;)

And they'll have had to stockpile the figures, as well as the stockpiles for the new releases coming up. And then you have to add in overtime costs, extra warehousing, tying up capital for long periods and so on.

But you know what the real clincher is?

This level of decision isn't made by Dave the Tea Boy, it's made at board level. Shutting down production is a serious business, ordering extra metal to stockpile is expensive, and having to pay people's wages whilst they're doing nothing during a complete refit is also expensive - unless you fire them of course, in which case they'll probably have a case for unfair dismissal and GW will be paying out significant sums in the future.

This, and the capital outlay for this kind of project means it will show up on annual reports in the finances, and in the future prospects section (reduced reliance on precious metals and/or fuel prices).

Add in the kinds of lead time you'd need to do it (investigation of machinery, purchasing and installing, termination of metal/fuel supply contracts and set up of resin precursor supply contracts, staff training, assessment of the building and planning for any required modifications - especially if they need planning permission), and we wouldn't have been talking about it for the last week or so, we'd have been talking about it for the last year, since GW published their 2009-2010 report.

MarcoSkoll
07-04-2011, 13:49
'Citadel dust mask': Shaped like a Kasrkin's rebreather mask.
If they did that, I would buy one!

x-esiv-4c
07-04-2011, 13:55
I dislike how low-heat can distort forgeworld models. I wouldn't be spending any money on new models if they have the same issue.

Nicoca
07-04-2011, 14:20
Hmm, I guess I missed the release of plastic Vostroyans and Sororitas. ;)


QFT. I think i'm correct in thinking that Sisters are the only army whose troop choice costs the better part of 80£ for minimum size. :(

Brother Loki
07-04-2011, 14:28
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298973

With stock already in the system it's not that long to wait for sisters really. They took a lot of the old Dark Eldar stuff out of production about a year before the new stuff was released didn't they?

DasTwitcH
07-04-2011, 15:16
Thanks mechanicalhorizon. Nice to have a voice of reason among all the ZOMG WERE AL GUNNA DIEEEEE going on in this thread.

Achaylus72
07-04-2011, 15:21
I have had it confirmed from a source i'll not name that Metal is being replaced with Resin and it will be produced in factories in China.

Chaos and Evil
07-04-2011, 15:24
Since they can still use all of the current masters to make new molds, especially if they are centrifugally casting the models, then there would be no change. SG won't go away at all, if anything it will become less expensive for GW to produce SG models.
I find it really unlikely that GW will produce Epic or Warmaster scale infantry in resin. More likely to me is they can both ranges.

Llew
07-04-2011, 15:26
I have had it confirmed from a source i'll not name that Metal is being replaced with Resin and it will be produced in factories in China.

How do you square that with GW pulling their production out of China due to the lack of quality control and economic factors not allowing them to see the cost savings that they expected?

I'm confident that GW is switching to resin. I'll be shocked if they move that production to China.

spaint2k
07-04-2011, 15:33
Cost has always been the SG ranges "Achilles heel".

I'm pretty sure that lack of support, next-to-no marketing, and increasing the cost beyond any kind of reasonable level has always been the SG ranges' "Achilles heel". :)

Achaylus72
07-04-2011, 15:33
How do you square that with GW pulling their production out of China due to the lack of quality control and economic factors not allowing them to see the cost savings that they expected?

I'm confident that GW is switching to resin. I'll be shocked if they move that production to China.

I have said in a previous post that i had no prior knowledge of GW closing its Chinese factories.

On the issue of quality control, i am unsure.

China is a good choice as those working on the production lines aren't unionised and because of this labour is very cheap and they can produce in bulk.

Bloodknight
07-04-2011, 15:46
China is a good choice as those working on the production lines aren't unionised and because of this labour is very cheap and they can produce in bulk.

You also get a lot of crap and your designs stolen for counterfeiting :p. That's why a lot of companies pull out of China again or produce substandard stuff for the Chinese market there (like VW, for example...the Chinese models are all like 15 years behind the western cars). The industrial espionage is just too bad there because the government backs the Chinese firms.

That said, I'd rather pay the wages for a guy working in the EU than a Chinese guy, even if it costs more.

carlisimo
07-04-2011, 15:55
Moving to China is bigger news than the materials change, imo. It can work, but only with significant oversight.

ModelCalamity
07-04-2011, 16:05
Moving to China is not true. :)

Chaos and Evil
07-04-2011, 16:10
Why not? There's no reason you can't cast models that small in resin.
Aye, I've done it myself, in a pressure chamber, and I couldn't get that to be completely reliable (Still had bubbles sometimes).

My impression is that spin-casting will tend to get worse flow that that, so that's why I found it unlikely that resin casting 6mm infantry would work reliably enough for GW.

Achaylus72
07-04-2011, 16:15
Moving to China is not true. :)

How so, i got my info from a very good source (i won't name).

ModelCalamity
07-04-2011, 16:25
Your source is wrong. Trust me on this.

illumin4tus
07-04-2011, 16:37
The 'resin will kill you' argument is a strawman extrpolated from people voicing reasonable concerns. Working with resin will require special precautions in order to be used safely which are different to those for white metal.

I also don't see a wave of "modeller" related deaths in the papers either.
That gives me an image of modellers keeling off their chairs in a pythonesque manner after sniffing resin dust :) but it's gradual damage over time which may or may not cause serious injury or disease.

Follow the safety precautions, you'll be just fine.QFT

Just think of all the chemicals you guys expose yourselves to just from playing wargames and painting miniatures. Aerosols, paint thinners, sealers, superglue, polystyrene cement,
All carrying recomendations to use in well-ventiled areas (see above)

METAL DUST (from cleaning metal models :evilgrin:) Metal dust tends to fall downwards and stay there. It doesn't float in the air waiting to be breathed in. However, I wouldnt recommend snorting lines of powdered metal :)

flock (yes, you can breath that stuff in), Something else I wouldnt recommend snorting but the size of flock is exponentionally greater than resin dust and does not have the same potential to damage the respiratory system.


powders for detailing and too many others to mention.
Each with their own appropriate recomendations for use.

I have/would use resin BUT with suitable precautions (I have the vacuum cleaner running at low speed next to the action and wipe down my work area with a wet paper towel when done).

Steve54
07-04-2011, 16:38
How so, i got my info from a very good source (i won't name).

Is it the same reliable source who told you GW staff buy from maelstrom due to cost (which is strange as they get a 50% discount) and that GW had no input on pricing in GW Australia - you need to stop listening to him as he is either deliberatly lieing or just making things up. In this case has he got confused with some FW kits being made in china?
As many have said GW is moving from metal to resin and will be doing so in their existing factory in Lenton. They definitely 100% won't be moving production to China chasing the same savings that didn't actually materialise when they tried before.

yabbadabba
07-04-2011, 16:50
An interesting trick, don't the furnaces and moulds basically run 24/7 already? ;) No.


snip - and we wouldn't have been talking about it for the last week or so, we'd have been talking about it for the last year, since GW published their 2009-2010 report. Again no. GW was a Plc in 1996 when they switched from lead. Nothing metioned in the financial reports or from the forums/rumour mill prior to the switch. LotR would have required a far greater deal of prep, resources (remember some of the studio had to work in a special part of the building, with special securtiy measures) stockpiling etc - no mention in the reports, nothing mentioned on the forums of the scale of the preparation. Companies hide far bigger relocation of resources and losses of capital with relative ease these days.

There is more than enough information on here to burst your bubble Sai-Lauren. There is nothing surprising, shocking, unnatural or illogical about what GW are doing by shutting down metal production; it can all be planned and managed simply and with little fuss to the supply chain. The only concern will be a run on some lines, and I really don't think GW will care. Add in that Direct can always run off a little more if necessary in metal and I think they are well covered.

The issue isn't the logistics or sales, its about how the sales channels wish to get the product out, and whether the move to resin changes the actual purchase price or box quantity of some models in favour of resin. If that happens, trust me, GW will want no metal left in the system come resin release day.

_Chimaera
07-04-2011, 16:58
Personally I would rather they moved to a plastic HQ box than to resin. It would also allow for more variation and creativity when building HQ choices. As for other metals simply turn them in to plastic boxes as soon as possible. It would be awesome.

shelfunit.
07-04-2011, 17:54
Personally I would rather they moved to a plastic HQ box than to resin. It would also allow for more variation and creativity when building HQ choices. As for other metals simply turn them in to plastic boxes as soon as possible. It would be awesome.

Trouble with this though is (as has been mentioned many, many times before) the start up costs (the molds) for making plastic are very high (even though the individual costs to produce each sprue from these molds are tiny), and GW would take a much longer time to recoup the costs for relatively low selling command models.
Reading the above posts it seems the resin could be used in the current metal molds, or similar, cheaply produced new molds from the current masters.
Whilst I would love to see the entire range in plastic (despite having a great affection for the older "pre-millenium" metals ranges) for modelling purposes, a switch to "almost-plastic" won't worry me too much.

Sgt John Keel
07-04-2011, 18:12
QFT. I think i'm correct in thinking that Sisters are the only army whose troop choice costs the better part of 80£ for minimum size. :(

3*£10.75+£7.70 is just barely £40. (And less than £53 if you must have special weapons and an Imagifer as well). Not much more than a basic Imperial Guard Platoon.

As for the topic, I'm on the side of the nay-sayers (surprise!).

Sure, we don't know the exact properties of the resin used, but I'm pretty sure it won't have (all) the properties we cherish in metal miniatures such as weight, ease of paint removal, structural longevity etc. (I think the pikemen of the DoW miniatures will be really fun to cast).

As for the health hazards, people sound a lot like the nuclear industry apologists, glossing over the dangers and issues. Obviously, it can be safe if it's done properly. Will people?

Hendarion
07-04-2011, 18:13
Actually before changing metal to resin, they should start to take care for their old plastic sprues. The Falcon-mould must be total rubbish. My last one was full of little sprinkles and some areas had been weirdly rough and uneven. And not only mine actually, a friend two days ago told me of the same issue.

Jobu
07-04-2011, 18:35
The GW games i play are predominantly metal: Warmaster, BFG, and LotR. I have an all metal SoB (40k) and Khand (LotR) army already.
I wonder if these game systems will switch as well.

No, because you play them they will be entirely abandoned. :)

On a safety note, filing/sanding/tapping under water, even running water should alleviate most of the dust worries. You have to wash the model anyway.

I hate resin, at least all the resin I have used up until now. The brush on primers I use do not tend to stick to it well, which means I end up doing the same mini two or three times. Lightly sanding does help but I only do that for bases and not mini's.

Nicoca
07-04-2011, 22:00
3*£10.75+£7.70 is just barely £40. (And less than £53 if you must have special weapons and an Imagifer as well).

How did i never notice the 3 pack of sisters? :D

Nevertheless, 50£ is way too much, and this goes for IG as well, for a single troops choice.

CrazyChib
07-04-2011, 22:19
Firstly, I'm not sure where I stand with GW getting rid of their metals in favour of resin. I have limited experience with resin models, but I find the FW stuff is really good, so it will be interesting to see how they compare. It will be a bit wierd not having metal minis, but that's just me.

Secondly, I'm aware of how harmful certain resins can be if you breathe in their dust. It takes alot to do harm, so how much sanding are you guys doing? As has been said, it's down to common sense. You should not use aerosol paints or glues in confined, non-ventilated areas. Resin (if toxic) should be the same. Until we find out the facts of what materials GW will use, there is no point speculating of the (maybe non-existent) dangers.

Earthbeard
07-04-2011, 22:25
How so, i got my info from a very good source (i won't name).

I've got it from a very good source, that you're so far from right, <----Comment Removed WarSeer Inquisition---->

Harry
07-04-2011, 22:50
I've got it from a very good source, that you're so far from right, <----Comment Removed WarSeer Inquisition---->
I have no idea what this means but it made me smile. :D

Bookwrak
07-04-2011, 23:15
How so, i got my info from a very good source (i won't name).
Because you _didn't_ get your info from a very good source.

Achaylus72
08-04-2011, 04:25
Ok i'll take all that on board.

So those who have said my information is wrong what is replacing Metal and where is it being produced, if you have better information time to put up and tells us the what and where.

So i'll understand and also clears up some issues.

DasTwitcH
08-04-2011, 04:30
It has been said several times by several different people that metal is being replaced by resin, and it's being done at Lenton. Did you read the rest of the thread at all? There are guys here who do have - or even are - very good sources.

Achaylus72
08-04-2011, 04:42
It has been said several times by several different people that metal is being replaced by resin, and it's being done at Lenton. Did you read the rest of the thread at all? There are guys here who do have - or even are - very good sources.

I humbly appologise for my lack of information, thank you for the correction.

Harry
08-04-2011, 05:40
It has been said several times by several different people that metal is being replaced by resin, and it's being done at Lenton. Did you read the rest of the thread at all? There are guys here who do have - or even are - very good sources.
Well you just point them out and we'll take them out back for a good kicking. We don't like their kind around these parts. :D

But if it helps ... metal is being replaced by resin, and it's being done at Lenton. :D

(and I'm not very happy about it. :cries: ... not that it is being done in Lenton you understand but the fact that it is being done at all.)

Hendarion
08-04-2011, 06:14
(and I'm not very happy about it. :cries: ... not that it is being done in Lenton you understand but the fact that it is being done at all.)
To me as a metal-collector this change is heart-breaking. Feels like losing a big part of myself after 16 years or like someone kicked me in the nuts and tells me he's gonna delete my hobby and that I have 3 seconds to leave this place before the dogs get released.
If I had the choice (and be it mailorder-only), I'd still buy metal, no matter if it costs more than the rest - as some kind of premium-collectors-service, you know? *sigh* :cries:

So far since nothing was officially told to the customers, I don't even know if and for how long I may still order those metal-boxes and -blisters which I still require to complete my collection. And I don't wanna end with an unfinished collection, getting told: "Well, sorry for not telling you earlier, but we're out of stock and it won't come back". :cries: I'm really worried.

Malorian
08-04-2011, 06:29
The independant retailer in fort mcmurray laughed at this idea.

He said the metals were being repackaged, not redone in resin.


That being said Harry's word is taken above pretty much all but <----Comment Removed WarSeer Inquisition----> ;)

Harry
08-04-2011, 07:01
For once I hope I am completely wrong and end up looking stupid for believing this.

But it is not just me saying this. I did not start this rumour and too many people (who are better informed than I am) have chimed in left right and center for me not to believe that this is happening.


To me as a metal-collector this change is heart-breaking. Feels like losing a big part of myself after 16 years or like someone kicked me in the nuts and tells me he's gonna delete my hobby and that I have 3 seconds to leave this place before the dogs get released.
If I had the choice (and be it mailorder-only), I'd still buy metal, no matter if it costs more than the rest - as some kind of premium-collectors-service, you know? *sigh* :cries:

So far since nothing was officially told to the customers, I don't even know if and for how long I may still order those metal-boxes and -blisters which I still require to complete my collection. And I don't wanna end with an unfinished collection, getting told: "Well, sorry for not telling you earlier, but we're out of stock and it won't come back". :cries: I'm really worried.

I know how you feel.

I have had a love affair with Citadel miniatures all my life. I met her as a child and I fell in love, we grew up together, one day we got married and have had a long and happy marriage, we even had our 25th anniversary just a couple of years ago and suddenly she is leaving me for a younger man. (who likes plastic).

I too would continue to pay more for metal ... but I don't think we will get that option.

I have been trying to snaffle up all the metal I need to complete my collection for while.

There is obviously a fair amount of it 'out there' but I imagine this will disappear quite fast once everyone knows it will not be available forever. Certain favorite metal will probably get quite expensive on e-bay but I imagine it will all become a bit more sought after once it is OOP

I wondered if GW might have some big half price metal sale to shift the old stock just like in days gone by (to give us one last chance to complete our collections) .... but TBH I don't see it and I don't want to take the risk of hanging on to find out so I am just trying to snag everything I can in the next couple of months.

I will never do it. I don't have enough time or enough disposable income and I am already resigned to the fact that I will be left trying to pick up the remaining stuff I need, at inflated prices, for years to come.

Obviously this will be announced in a couple of months and even then after they stop metal production I imagine stuff will be available for a few more months whilst they shift remaining stocks. But what you don't get from GW (or wherever you get it from) in the next few months you will be left scrabbling around the interwebz trying to find it....and you will find it just like you can still pick up a copy of SpaceHulk. There will be pockets of metal all over the place for a while. You may even pick up some stuff cheap as indy retailers try to shift stocks. But some stuff will be hard to find. Especially recent metal ... as there will not be so much of that about.

I am sorry I have no words of comfort.

rev
08-04-2011, 08:06
my concern lies with quality control.

If its anything like FW, Its going to get annoying very fast.

rev

Hendarion
08-04-2011, 08:23
I know how you feel.
(...)
I am sorry I have no words of comfort.
At least I am not alone.
:cries:
And I think once the "new kids" start to love their new material, we'll see lots of things being dropped to eBay and maybe even on low price, as only a few (so it seems) will want metal instead of plastic or resin.

But all the new releases will not be that interesting to me anymore, they open a new hobby-field which I am not part of.

illumin4tus
08-04-2011, 09:14
I have had a love affair with Citadel miniatures all my life. Why that two-timing ...:D


I have been trying to snaffle up all the metal I need to complete my collection for while.
Me too. I have just ordered half of my wishlist items on the GW Website which I have been putting off buying.

Most of my collecting is for old, OOP miniatures (at least its cheaper than a sports car as far as vain attempts to recapture lost youth go :)). Apart from that, there are a couple of Mordheim warbands I want and I will have to decide about continuing to collect LotR if they switch (but to be honest I was looking for an excuse to stop - I was planning on using the release of The Hobbit to mark a suitable end to my collecting of this range).


I wondered if GW might have some big half price metal sale to shift the old stock just like in days gone by (to give us one last chance to complete our collections)

There was no warning of the Vanishing Bits Outrage or The Great Purge that followed - I would have stocked up on several items if I had been given warning of these events. Thinking about it, it could be an elaborate marketing plo :eek: Everyone stocks up on things they want and speculates on things with possibly high resale value in secondary markets...GW sales double or triple and shareholders are happy for another year - Hurrah!

As Harry said, things at the end of a run tend to be rarer as they are in production for shorter times (Return of the King release for the collectable LotR game, The Balrog extension for MECCG, for example).

Anyway, it looks like GW and I have irreconcilable differences will shortly go our separate ways. No regrets, no resentment, just diverging paths on the bittersweet road of life.

Sai-Lauren
08-04-2011, 09:39
Again no. GW was a Plc in 1996 when they switched from lead. Nothing metioned in the financial reports or from the forums/rumour mill prior to the switch.

The internet wasn't anywhere near as big back then, and we all pretty much knew the change from lead was coming due to US regulations anyway.

I'd also be very interested to know where you found a 1995/6 EOY report. I certainly couldn't find one on line.

But considering that it's the equivalent of a chef changing from using Maris Piper potatoes to King Edwards, then there's only the regulatory compliance to cover anyway.

This is more like a chef swapping out all the meat in their dishes for tofu.



LotR would have required a far greater deal of prep, resources (remember some of the studio had to work in a special part of the building, with special securtiy measures) stockpiling etc - no mention in the reports, nothing mentioned on the forums of the scale of the preparation.

LOTR was effectively announced on national TV - Tom Kirby's infamous "the staff would have lynched us if we didn't" interview on Working Lunch.

That's also different because it couldn't have appeared ahead of the deal being signed in order to protect the deal from competitors, but it would have appeared in subsequent ones once the deal was finalised, as part of the future prospects (something like "LoTR should bring in £Xm in direct sales, plus £Ym through cross-selling with other lines over n years"). And once the deal was signed, then the veils had to come down on what was being produced as a part of the deal, but everything else (production, release stockpiling etc) would have been part of the normal day to day running of the company, just with a little extra oversight from New Line Cinema, and not reported anywhere.

After all, I wouldn't expect "Jervis Johnson went for a cup of coffee (instant, decaf, milk, no sugar) at 11:19 on 17th January 2011" to appear on the reports either... ;)

However, this is a fundamental shift in the companies production methods, and it is not something you can just sneak up on people. The time scales, the contracts that need to be signed and terminated, and the number of people affected are simply too big.

If this were going to happen, I would have expected some FW resin figures to have already been released through stores to see what the public response is - there's absolutely no point in them doing this if it means they kill off their sales in the process.



Companies hide far bigger relocation of resources and losses of capital with relative ease these days.

But not when it's something that will affect investors future prospects - it would be trumpeted as reducing reliance on fuel and metals in the future prospects section, just as I said.



There is more than enough information on here to burst your bubble Sai-Lauren.

on here being the most relevant words.

I did a couple of quick google searches using a variety of related terms - the only relevant pieces I could find either directed me straight back here to Warseer, or to the other GW forums (Dakka, BOLS, B&C etc), and as we all feed off each other for rumours anyway, they might as well be classed as a single instance. Nothing anywhere else.

I've even checked Nottingham council's site for planning applications, there's nothing for GW.

Which all to me looks like it's based off a single source, someone saying "I have 2 numbers, I'm going to say they're both 2, and come up with 4 as an answer", type stuff.

It might even be GW hunting for the next lucky recipient of a P45, after the GK codex page leaks - which they have done before. Have you considered that as an option?

Now, I do accept that I may be wrong on this, and if this does occur in the next six months, then I apologise.

It's just that from where I'm sat, there's too many things against it, and nowhere near enough supporting it.

Edit:
Actually, there's another possibility...



Me too. I have just ordered half of my wishlist items on the GW Website which I have been putting off buying.

Without this rumour, would you have bought them?

Rumours of figures going OOP, and shortages? Get them whilst you can folks, oh, what do you mean there's no actual shortage, just a rumour on the internet? Well, maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read on those sites, only the GW website actually tells you the truth...

silverstu
08-04-2011, 09:39
I am kind of split on this- I love my plastic nids and vamps, therefore resin will sit well with them [I prefer the weight and feel and the odd metal model doesn't seem quite right], so I wasn't too concerned, sounds fine to me. And then I thought of my dwarfs... good as the plastic kits are I really prefer metal- so I reckon i'll be picking up more longbeards and iron breakers [even though I'm working on my nids at the moment..] as well as fishing through ebay to get some old classics..

Archibald_TK
08-04-2011, 09:41
Since the thread on the 40k forums was deleted I'll repost that little bit of info here.

At the beginning of the week we received an info from our GW national HQ that we shall not worry and the disappearing models will be once again available to independent retailers in the future in a "different format". As I said back there it means nothing and everything at the same time. If it happens to add nothing new to the conversation then sorry alas I'm simply too short on time to read that whole thread.

neXus6
08-04-2011, 11:01
Just another step in GW's war against metal models perhaps? It's something they've been doing for years anyway even though they have been bashing half of their own stock.

If it happens I wouldn't be surprised to see it being for no reason other than potential cost cutting if they keep the waste from poor moulding down, and/or as another excuse to bump prices up.

blongbling
08-04-2011, 11:27
I heard you will get a full hazchem suit with each purchase.....oh wait, that's right GW wouldn't change its production over to a substance that will kill its customers...sheesh

Earthbeard
08-04-2011, 12:49
I have no idea what this means but it made me smile. :D

Thankies Pie man :P

@achylus - that's not how proving a stance works, you state sources first, then people follow suite, if they wish.

eldargal
08-04-2011, 13:08
In two years time this whole argument will be forgotten as people have become accustomed to resin, just like what occurred with the lead to white metal.

I don't care either way, I can take resin or leave it alone. But the hysteria and ignorance in this thread is astounding. Follow the safety instructions, and there will be no problem. Contrary to popular belief GW don't market their product at pre-schoolers and kids have been making models hazardous glues and paints for decades.

Regarding litigation, do you have any idea how difficult it would be to prove a case against GW? there are people who worked for asbestos companies for years that are still struggling to prove that that is what caused their illnesses and that is a far, far more dangerous substance.

Foolish Mortal
08-04-2011, 14:28
What I'm wondering is when this change happens, will they be having a sale like they did when they switched from Lead to white metal? It would be nice if they did, but this is GW so....:D

Overall I'm holding fire on my opinion of this. I won't claim to be a resin fan, mostly due to some bad Forgeworld casts, but if they use a different type of resin - may not even be an issue.

I can't say I like the metals that much either, as they can be complete t***s to assemble sometimes.

Either way it's gonna happen like it or not, so best start getting used to the idea.

Llew
08-04-2011, 14:34
I heard you will get a full hazchem suit with each purchase.....oh wait, that's right GW wouldn't change its production over to a substance that will kill its customers...sheesh

Although it would give "churn 'n' burn" a whole new meaning. We'd know precisely what they expected out of vets. ;)

I, for one, am unconcerned with the coming of our new resin overlords. However, my remaining GW metals may go up in value a bit. This may not be such an awful thing.

yabbadabba
08-04-2011, 15:45
Sai-Lauren - I shall leave you in your Platonic Cave.

@neXus6 - check out the price rises in Tin and Antimony in the past 5 years. It might change your mind about the whole cost/price situation

@everyone else - see you on the other side.

illumin4tus
08-04-2011, 15:48
Without this rumour, would you have bought them?

They were sitting in my wish list and were earmarked for ongoing projects so I would have bought them eventually. However, the thought of them no longer being in metal made me buy them now, just in case. In the great scheme of things it just rearranges my hobby budget rather than increasing it.

carlisimo
08-04-2011, 15:54
my concern lies with quality control.

If its anything like FW, Its going to get annoying very fast.

I started out in the model airplane world and it's similar there: the smaller the company, the more rare the offering, the lower quality it is. Small volume = unreliable quality.

Resin is usually associated with poor quality control, but it's really just because resin is the most cost efficient way to make low-volume kits (excluding vacuform...). Resin models at GW's high volume are likely to be more controlled.

t-tauri
08-04-2011, 16:10
There is obviously a fair amount of it 'out there' but I imagine this will disappear quite fast once everyone knows it will not be available forever. Certain favorite metal will probably get quite expensive on e-bay but I imagine it will all become a bit more sought after once it is OOP

I wondered if GW might have some big half price metal sale to shift the old stock just like in days gone by (to give us one last chance to complete our collections) .... but TBH I don't see it and I don't want to take the risk of hanging on to find out so I am just trying to snag everything I can in the next couple of months.



I don't think we'll see a sale of metal. Stocks have been run down and GW's stock control is too good these days for there to be much left.

Some metal things are going to become very expensive when this comes through. I can see some Specialist Games pieces becoming like gold dust if they go completely out of production.

As for whether it's happening or not, it's been confirmed by enough reliable sources for me to believe it.

As for the health risks you are more at risk of developing lung cancer from passive smoking or from the commute to work in a city as long as you follow the safety advice and don't sniff up the resin dust.

If you are a smoker then your chances of developing lung cancer are thousands of times greater than any exposure to resin dust will give you.

mrtn
08-04-2011, 16:30
As for the health risks you are more at risk of developing lung cancer from passive smoking or from the commute to work in a city as long as you follow the safety advice and don't sniff up the resin dust.

As has been mentioned a couple of times (in this thread or the deleted one in 40k N&R) is that it's hard to follow safety advices if you live in the same place as you do your hobby work. Dust swirls up and get caught in the carpet/cat/mattress before you have a chance to remove it.

That said we don't know what type of resin they will use, and as blongbling implies GW are not likely to sell (too) dangerous stuff to kids.

But I've got hundreds of unpainted models already, so I can wait and see. :)

TheMav80
08-04-2011, 19:02
If people are really willing to pay more for metal models after they all get made in resin...I can't wait to put stuff up on ebay.

Private_SeeD
08-04-2011, 20:47
I was told that they stopped making metal models nearly 3 months ago and they're in full swing in bringing everything that isn't plastic to a new high quality resin, but i'm not saying what I say is cannon, just what I heard

Hendarion
08-04-2011, 20:52
If people are really willing to pay more for metal models after they all get made in resin...I can't wait to put stuff up on ebay.
I wonder how you're going to make the new releases to be metal though.
If you can manage, contact me.

Killgore
08-04-2011, 22:13
No more metal?

Fantastic, if Resin keeps the detail then Im more than happy to buy Resin GW models

Easier to convert, lighter to carry, look as great :)

FabricatorGeneralMike
08-04-2011, 23:42
Although it would give "churn 'n' burn" a whole new meaning. We'd know precisely what they expected out of vets. ;)

I, for one, am unconcerned with the coming of our new resin overlords. However, my remaining GW metals may go up in value a bit. This may not be such an awful thing.


I, for one, do not welcome our new resin overlords. I along with Harry and a few others will miss out "Metal Mistress" and the love/ hate relationship we have with them.

I know that my beloved sisters and RT era Space Marines will hopefully not become like 'spacehulk' and the stupid £200 by it now option that is so common on thiefbay these days.

Sighs, I tried to enlighten the masses when I worked at the store to the artform that was working with metal figgies, but alas only those with the gift of forsight took my offer most, seemed to love that other whore plastic.

TheMav80
09-04-2011, 00:34
I wonder how you're going to make the new releases to be metal though.
If you can manage, contact me.

I meant putting the metal figures that I already own up on ebay.

That probably wasn't all that clear. Sorry. lol

kasrkinsquad
09-04-2011, 03:16
To me as a metal-collector this change is heart-breaking. Feels like losing a big part of myself after 16 years or like someone kicked me in the nuts and tells me he's gonna delete my hobby and that I have 3 seconds to leave this place before the dogs get released.
If I had the choice (and be it mailorder-only), I'd still buy metal, no matter if it costs more than the rest - as some kind of premium-collectors-service, you know? *sigh* :cries:

So far since nothing was officially told to the customers, I don't even know if and for how long I may still order those metal-boxes and -blisters which I still require to complete my collection. And I don't wanna end with an unfinished collection, getting told: "Well, sorry for not telling you earlier, but we're out of stock and it won't come back". :cries: I'm really worried.

I am in the same boat. I don't think it will be possible for me to get all the metal models in 40k and Fantasy that I want before they go away.

Even worse is how does Epic and Warmaster fall into this. I am in panic mode to figure out how I can get any many Epic and Warmaster figures.

neXus6
09-04-2011, 03:25
@neXus6 - check out the price rises in Tin and Antimony in the past 5 years. It might change your mind about the whole cost/price situation

The state of Oil prices is far worse for producers than Metals yet you don't see GW giving up on their plastic models.

Also you don't see smaller companies jumping away from metals and you would expect smaller companies to be the first to need to do this if it was down to global economic issues as they have lower profit margins.

If smaller companies can take the current state of things then GW most certainly can so that is very unlikely to be the issue.

Wolf Scout Ewan
09-04-2011, 04:01
Hmm I wonder if they will use the same resin as Fenryll?

Llew
09-04-2011, 04:26
The state of Oil prices is far worse for producers than Metals yet you don't see GW giving up on their plastic models.

If the oil doubles, and it makes the raw materials cost of a box of troops go from 4 cents to 8 cents, GW can take that. If the cost of metal in an individual model goes from 75 cents to 1.50, they can't stomach that as well.


Also you don't see smaller companies jumping away from metals and you would expect smaller companies to be the first to need to do this if it was down to global economic issues as they have lower profit margins.

If smaller companies can take the current state of things then GW most certainly can so that is very unlikely to be the issue.

Smaller companies are often running GW-like prices without having GW-like retail overheads. You have to remember that somewhere between 60 and 70 percent of money received is going to pay for stores. So they can absorb the costs somewhat better. On that account, GW has helped them set their prices.

Smaller companies often don't have the time or resources to invest in researching new methods of production or materials. After all, if you're bringing in $500 a month in profit selling miniatures, but it's taking all of your free time outside of your day job, you're not left with a lot of money to invest. Nor can you waste the time sacrificing production to research new methods and lose your regular sales -- it becomes doubly-expensive for you.

So I can believe that metals costs are driving GW to look at resin. I don't believe it savings in production costs will trickle down the line.

t-tauri
09-04-2011, 12:03
Several posts removed. Please post in accordance with the posting guidelines.

Ozorik
09-04-2011, 12:11
Easier to convert,

Have you tried converting resin models? Easier to shatter may be a better description (depending on what resin GW end up using of course)

Velsharoon
09-04-2011, 12:29
I am not looking forward to this change as I do my work in my bedroom, like the feel of metal models and like working with them. Unless there is a significant price decrease as well I dont plan to follow GW much longer.

Nagash
09-04-2011, 16:13
If this is true I'm looking forward to it a lot since I try to avoid metal models if I can.

Balerion
09-04-2011, 18:48
What's the process/difficulty involved in stripping resin models? Or does it depend on the specific resin recipe?

Hellebore
10-04-2011, 02:49
If you can make a spin cast styrene model why aren't they capable of being stuck together using plastic glue?


Hellebore

Lars Porsenna
10-04-2011, 03:01
I had a Star Trek Larson Class frigate, a so-called "garage kit" in 1/2500 scale that I successfully stripped using Simple Green. I also have an Otherworld Frost Giant (back when they were still casting in resin) sitting in Simple green and it seems to be unaffected...

Damon.

Hendarion
10-04-2011, 07:55
What's the process/difficulty involved in stripping resin models? Or does it depend on the specific resin recipe?
Easy one: You CANT strip them.
To strip Acrylics, you need something to dissolve Acrylics. The funny thing is now, that EVERYTHING that dissolves Acrylics (alcohol, isopropyl alcohol, spiritus, Revell Airbrush Clean, aceton, ... whatever) ALSO dissolves Resin.
There you go.

Ah well, if you got an ultrasonic-cleaner, you might be able to get the colours off without too much damaging the resin. But using chemicals will lead to a nice muddy pool of "liquefied" resin.

But well, at least this will stop a lot of eBaying and force ppl to buy new resin instead of buying used and stripping it. Really smart move.

FabricatorGeneralMike
10-04-2011, 10:06
Easy one: You CANT strip them.
To strip Acrylics, you need something to dissolve Acrylics. The funny thing is now, that EVERYTHING that dissolves Acrylics (alcohol, isopropyl alcohol, spiritus, Revell Airbrush Clean, aceton, ... whatever) ALSO dissolves Resin.
There you go.

Ah well, if you got an ultrasonic-cleaner, you might be able to get the colours off without too much damaging the resin. But using chemicals will lead to a nice muddy pool of "liquefied" resin.

But well, at least this will stop a lot of eBaying and force ppl to buy new resin instead of buying used and stripping it. Really smart move.

I've stripped FW models with simple green, doesn't melt plastic or resin. I dunno what they put in there, but the stuff works great.

Chaos and Evil
10-04-2011, 10:19
You can strip resin in pretty much the same way as stripping metal. I've done it several times a few years ago.

Hendarion
10-04-2011, 11:14
@FabricatorGeneralMike: Yea, green might work. Dunno what's inside there. But that stuff isn't available in Germany ;) And even then, I won't let it in there too long.

@Chaos and Evil: No, you can't. Acrylic and resin are both vulnerable to any kind of alcohol, which is basically always used to strip colours in one way or another.
So dunno what you used, but it is CLEARLY NOT "as easy as stripping metal". By no means, not even close to.
I know a lot of guys who used the same stuff to strip resin which they normally use to strip metal. And the result of all of them was a nice muddy lump of waste instead of a miniature. So... "pretty much the same way" is just not true. Not at all. And things get worse if you don't have to strip acrylic paints, but primers (real primers, not GW stuff) or email colours.

Ronin[XiC]
10-04-2011, 12:08
Alcohol is ONE of many options to strip miniatures.

SImple Green in the US and/or Dettol in the UK.
Easy as pie.

Steve54
10-04-2011, 12:27
@FabricatorGeneralMike: Yea, green might work. Dunno what's inside there. But that stuff isn't available in Germany ;) And even then, I won't let it in there too long.

@Chaos and Evil: No, you can't. Acrylic and resin are both vulnerable to any kind of alcohol, which is basically always used to strip colours in one way or another.
So dunno what you used, but it is CLEARLY NOT "as easy as stripping metal". By no means, not even close to.
I know a lot of guys who used the same stuff to strip resin which they normally use to strip metal. And the result of all of them was a nice muddy lump of waste instead of a miniature. So... "pretty much the same way" is just not true. Not at all. And things get worse if you don't have to strip acrylic paints, but primers (real primers, not GW stuff) or email colours.

Equivalents to simple green are available in Germany

Whilst you may be right that stripping resin isn't as easy as stripping metal its far more accurate to say that than your earlier crap about it being impossible to strip resin whatsoever.

EmperorNorton
10-04-2011, 13:09
Equivalents to simple green are available in Germany
Can you (or anybody else) name some of these equivalents?
I'd be very interested.

Hendarion
10-04-2011, 13:21
Whilst you may be right that stripping resin isn't as easy as stripping metal its far more accurate to say that than your earlier crap about it being impossible to strip resin whatsoever.
Yea, excuse my exaggeration. Still, stripping resin is dangerous, no matter what stuff you use. I surely won't risk turning a 100+ GBP model into an ugly blob of mud. And even worse by buying something from ebay. Currently you can strip everything off from metal minis, even email-colours. Not true for resin.

Chaos and Evil
10-04-2011, 13:23
@Chaos and Evil: No, you can't. Acrylic and resin are both vulnerable to any kind of alcohol, which is basically always used to strip colours in one way or another.
So dunno what you used, but it is CLEARLY NOT "as easy as stripping metal". By no means, not even close to.

You can't tell me that it's impossible because I've done it half a dozen times. Don't be so ridiculous. I used dot4 break fluid.

Harry
10-04-2011, 13:45
;5453009']Alcohol is ONE of many options to strip miniatures.Stripping miniatures is ONE of the many options for using alcohol....not one I tend to use very often. :shifty:

tu33y
10-04-2011, 15:19
so have we got a timescale for this? the person who "leaked" this to me from inside FW seemed to think it was imminent as in days not weeks... this was a week ago...

Havarel
10-04-2011, 15:39
Do you think we will get an official announcement when they do? Or will blisters/boxes just 'appear'? I'm also interested in the timescale away I've got several metal models I'm holding off buying until they become resin..

Llew
10-04-2011, 15:40
GW has already begun pulling codes for some metal models, and those are not available for reorder.

Sgt John Keel
10-04-2011, 16:05
Can you (or anybody else) name some of these equivalents?
I'd be very interested.

The active ingredient is … pine oil.

Also, I don't think isopropyl alcohol will strip GW's paints. At least not very fast.

EmperorNorton
10-04-2011, 16:12
The active ingredient is … pine oil.

That's turpentine, right?
I thought Simple Green was supposed to be non-toxic.

rabblerouser
10-04-2011, 16:46
Enzyme cleaners (simple green, superclean, etc.) are OK for resin but start to make it a little soft if you leave it in there for a week.
Brake fluid is fine too, but I am not sure what happens if you forget about the mini and leave it for too long.
I am speaking from personal experience from having done it many times.

Inquisitor Kallus
10-04-2011, 16:59
That's turpentine, right?
I thought Simple Green was supposed to be non-toxic.

No it is the actual oil from pine trees themselves. It is a fairly common ingredient in a number of cleaning products, and by itself it is natural. And whilst it is not toxic I wouldnt drink it as it basically 'degreases' things and will remove moisture from things, including your hands.

If you live in the UK and youve ever had you hands in Dettol for any period of time you will know how this feels...

tu33y
10-04-2011, 18:02
Do you think we will get an official announcement when they do? Or will blisters/boxes just 'appear'? I'm also interested in the timescale away I've got several metal models I'm holding off buying until they become resin..

i would assume for such a big change they will have a fairly big thing about it, maybe a whole article in WD about "working with the new resin" or whatever...

Hendarion
10-04-2011, 18:23
Also, I don't think isopropyl alcohol will strip GW's paints. At least not very fast.
It does. Not as fast as for example Revell Airbrush Clean or Aceton, but a bit faster than spiritus. Actually it is really fast. Few minutes often are enough. Thicker layers need maybe few hours.
To ruin a mini with it, you need only one drop of it for a few seconds.

Wintermute
10-04-2011, 18:56
Easy one: You CANT strip them.

Yes you can strip resin models and there is a thread dedicated to stripping paint from minis here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4952).

But if you don't want to wade through that thread here is the solution, use brake fluid which I would expect you can buy over the counter in Germany.

And before anyone asks, yes I've used brake fluid to strip the paint from resin, plastic and metal models.

Wintermute

Hendarion
10-04-2011, 19:40
Yea, we had that already. But thanks Wintermute.

Sgt John Keel
10-04-2011, 21:36
It does. Not as fast as for example Revell Airbrush Clean or Aceton, but a bit faster than spiritus. Actually it is really fast. Few minutes often are enough. Thicker layers need maybe few hours.
To ruin a mini with it, you need only one drop of it for a few seconds.

Curious. I've only tried isopropanol disinfectant (45 % ABV) though, perhaps the solution was too weak.

ForgottenLore
10-04-2011, 22:11
I've also used brake fluid to strip plastic figs.

Softens them right up a blurs the detail something fierce.

xxRavenxx
11-04-2011, 00:08
As someone who has stripped a few resin models using detol, a word of caution:

Do not leave them in the gunk for more than a day.

Ideally. Give them 2 hours, scrub, return for another hour, rescrub, then wash thoroughly and let dry.

The resin softens after prolonged exposure. It took a good two weeks for a spawn I dunked to become "rigid" again, though there was no damage (he just felt sort of... spongey, till he dried).

Someone in the store left a Death dude of krieg in the mix for about a week, and the thin items (A sword) never really recovered.

Hendarion
11-04-2011, 06:22
Curious. I've only tried isopropanol disinfectant (45 % ABV) though, perhaps the solution was too weak.
Yes, probably. That's the stuff you get in apothecaries. I'm using industrial version with 99.9% and clean fully dried brushes, airbrush and strip plastic/metal minis with it, clean hands, remove resin from windscreens, oils from car-parts, etc.


I've also used brake fluid to strip plastic figs.

Softens them right up a blurs the detail something fierce.
So... in opposite to Wintermute's suggestion, I should better NOT try that stuff unless I wanna ruin the mini.

Balerion
11-04-2011, 08:30
You'll hear varying reports of brake fluid softening plastic figs.

Personally, I've stripped hundreds of plastic models with it (sometimes leaving them in the fluid for 5+ days at a time) and very, very infrequently had any problems whatsoever. I think I've only noticed the softening on one or two stripping experiences out of dozens.

It seems more likely to effect older figures. Was there a point at which GW changed the composition of their plastic? I've been working with some old 40K ruins lately, and the plastic is much softer than it is on new models, and even seems to smell different.

Anyway, bottom line, brake fluid is perfectly safe, as long as you don't leave the models in it for too long. Best option is test-soak a single mini before tackling any batches.

AndrewGPaul
11-04-2011, 08:56
Smaller companies are often running GW-like prices without having GW-like retail overheads. You have to remember that somewhere between 60 and 70 percent of money received is going to pay for stores. So they can absorb the costs somewhat better. On that account, GW has helped them set their prices.


In fact, on one thread on the Frothers Unite forum, Kev White of Hasslefree admitted he couldn't sell an equivalent product to the Striking Scorpions box set for the price GW sell it at; he estimated his price would be about 25% higher, or more. Andy at Heresy is having to significantly increase his prices, and in some cases stop selling larger models to distributors, because of the increase in metal prices ( http://theminiaturespage.com/news/632222/ ).