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Squigkikka
30-03-2011, 21:02
Whoa. Whoa whoa whoa. I just met these men in battle and damn, they were absolutely devastating. Not only did they have F5 with the Banner of the King, they all also have S4 and D5, which is pretty substantial!

Armed with Longbows and a 3+ in shooting they can do some pretty decent killing too, and man- when they get into melee they are incredibly tough aswell, striking in the order of Cavalry (even if they don't charge). Halbarad comes along and gives them a neat little Fight bonus, an extra courage and 3 might! All this for uh... what is it, 110 and 40 per company? A bargain!

Do any of you have experience with them? Mainly in the way of dealing with them, I mean. I play as Isengard and I feel that short of overwhelming them with a massive unit of Uruks (so as to negate the cavalry attack special rule they have- no attacks lost due to deaths I mean), I don't know. Shooting maybe? Or magic?

Paying almost the same price of Mauh˙r or Ugl˙k seems kind of weird to me, when neither formations would stand a chance in melee. Is the Grey Company as crazy as they seem, or is there some secret to dealing with them?

Edit: Would any of you consider Ugluk or Mauhur worth it? I really like the lore behind them and my aim was to recreate the Uruk-Hai chapter in the book (With Grishnak and stuff). So far, all they've done for me is cost a lot and underperformed something immensely. Seems to be I'd be better off paying 50 for a Captain and a normal scout unit! After all, Mauhurs special rule only comes into play when he wins combat and even then it is unreliable- Ugluks is slightly better, but it can only at the BEST of opportunities result in 3 extra dice- and that's still costing him one might. Granted, they charge D6 + 6, but it still feels a bit so-so.

ForgottenLore
30-03-2011, 22:09
Its been a while since I looked at the various legendary companies in any depth, but an infantry formations that is able to strike as cavalry is pretty major.

Ugluk and Mauhur I think are mroe mediocre, although if you can arrange things so that Mauhur is likely to win combat, the man-flesh ability can be very nice vs heavy infantry.

The legendary formations are pretty hit or miss. Some, like the Grey Company are just outstanding, others are a waste of points.

As for tactics against it, all I can think of is to use monsters and magic.

Squigkikka
30-03-2011, 22:46
Monsters is a good idea, since the order of striking remains the same. Magic too, but... Saruman is the only mage I've got, and for a stonking 240p he doesn't actually do a whole lot of offensive killing! Even if I make use of both the offensive spells in the Lore of Ruin, Halbarad has might points which he can use to potentially protect the unit! Magic is a no-go. Maybe shooting will bring them down? Crossbows perhaps, and lots of 'em.

I really don't have a lot of things that can go into combat with them. I've been considering maybe sending sappers their way to thin their numbers, or use berserkers maybe?

I've been thinking about trying to get Mauh˙r into combat he'll win by combining him with a unit afflicted by Grima Wormtongue! They get a -1 to fight and -2 to courage, which could lead to even more losses. I mean if I used a Might point to engage in a heroic fight, I might even get to benefit from that rule twice! Mauh˙rs lads have rather high movement, which I suspect is their "deal"- M8 with a musician. That and "At the double!" could potentially take them a long way.

ForgottenLore
30-03-2011, 23:58
Yeah, crossbows are probably a good idea, hitting on "5"s ain't nutthin'

HRM
31-03-2011, 01:01
I've been considering maybe sending sappers their way to thin their numbers...

Don't discount these guys. Although almost universally panned, I've seen them used to good effect, in the sense that if you're careful with them, your opponent sort of CAN'T ignore them. Even if they accomplish nothing, they'll likely serve as a diatraction, drawing missle fire or spells for a turn or two... which IS accomplishing something, isn't it? Like I said, your opponent likely can't/won't straight-up ignore them, as they can potentially blow a massive hole in his line... Or yours, if you aren't careful!

As for the Grey Company... Yeah, crossbows.

Squigkikka
31-03-2011, 09:41
Oh, panned? Why's that? For 30 points they are amazing!

My main idea with them was to have them hide behind some other unit, and then make use of Sarumans Overlord to send 1-3 separate squads out into the face of the enemy with an Heroic Move thingie. That's only 90 points for 3d6 + 12 S10 hits, which can result in some seriously devastating killing for a mere 90p! It's okay if he shoots them, because it may very well set off a chain reaction off explosions.... or maybe his entire line backs out of the way haha, so who knows!

And then crossbows can mop up the rest! :D

ForgottenLore
31-03-2011, 16:07
I think they get panned because there is such a risk of your opponent setting them off in your own lines.

Squigkikka
31-03-2011, 16:27
Well, you hide them behind your own units or terrain!

Am I right in the assumption that I could use Sarumans Overlord rule to make the Sappers do a heroic move?

ForgottenLore
31-03-2011, 17:13
That is the current ruling for Overlord.

Some people have a problem with overlord working like that because, as things are currently worded, it allows a mumak to make a heroic move and trample all over the place. Myself, I think that is a problem with how Heroic move is worded and that overlord SHOULD work this way, but that is a discussion for another thread.

Squigkikka
31-03-2011, 17:18
Well, no Mumaks here, so I fail to see a problem with it!

That's good to know though, thank you. Very helpful!

Azexis
31-03-2011, 17:55
My buddy uses them all the time. My usual solution is just to kill everything else. Its the only thing I can think of from my end. I play elves/orcs, and I dont really have to much luck. You should see them with Gandalf casting epic defense every turn, fun stuff!

Squigkikka
31-03-2011, 20:17
That might be a good idea too! Focusing on the rest of his army and letting his thrice cursed Dunedan plink away with their tiny bows instead.

Edit: I just realized the base cost is 75. Whoaaa.

Squigkikka
01-04-2011, 17:58
A cave troll charging into these fellas took a sizeable chunk out of them. Failing their terror test, the brute smashed 8 men before dying himself!

Here's a question though. The troll was engaged in combat with one of the companies to the side (3 companies altogether). He slew 8 men, and we werent entirely sure how the response would be. I reasoned that they had to be taken off the flanks, but I couldn't find anything about what flank they had to be removed from and thus I gave him the advice to take away 8 from the flank not in contact with it, so that he could get attacks in return.

Did we play it correctly? Or should losses, foremost, be taken from the fighting company?

Also! Mauh˙r seriously kicked ass today so I don't feel he's a waste of points at all. Things Mauh˙r did:

Ate his way through Army of the Dead

Ate his way through Knights of Dol Amroth

Ate his way through those Gondor dudes with Aragorn in the lead.

Much of this was thanks to Saruman, Overlord and Inspiring Presence which did wonders for "At the double!" moves.

ForgottenLore
01-04-2011, 18:11
The rules for removing casualties are on page 49. Basically, you have to take them from the rear of the formation so that it stays in a legal configuration.

Glad to hear (and am surprised) that a cave troll did so well for you. I kept running cave trolls in my Moria army and they never did anything for me, so I dropped them.

Squigkikka
01-04-2011, 19:24
Right, in the rear! But since all 3 companies were on a line, you are supposed to pick from the flanks... and thus, it was possible he could've picked them from the company fighting the troll since the troll hits first.

Actually about that. What happens if you kill off so many troops that they are no longer in base contact? I'll do a paint picture to show what I mean.

108301

Very crude I know haha!

So! Troll kills 8. What happens? Lets say he removes them from the infantry side- does that mean my block of infantry is no longer in contact with them? Or what? Alternatively, he decides to pick the losses from the troll side, is he no longer in combat or...?

ForgottenLore
01-04-2011, 19:52
As part of the Removing Casualties section on page 49, the section titles Stranded Units outlines basically that exact scenario, including an example.

Squigkikka
01-04-2011, 20:03
Oh, I missed it completely haha!

Thank you :) We played it correctly then!

Xelee
01-04-2011, 22:20
I think the easiest way is to just forbid the Mumak from benifiting from overlord. I mean really, it is a silly thing to be doing in the first place. It is obviously a loophole given the mumak's special movement rules, and everyone seems to agree, so why do it? :)

Generally, I am not a fan of the Grey Coy, since I am generally not a fan of anything with def 5 and bellow that is unique in any way in your force. It is very easy to concentrate harm in this game and competant players will have brought along the ability to nuke the hell out of something.

I can see the appeal of Mahur if your opponents field formations like the ones you describe him eating his way through. It is the sort of thing that makes me think I should find some time for a daytime game and a higher points total! Good fun.

Squigkikka
01-04-2011, 23:09
Oh, the guy I'm playing is new entirely to this kind of modelbased uh... modelfighting, and I'm not much of a powergamer myself! I mean we don't design bad lists on purpose, but we do take what we like and perhaps try to make it good in the process. We are still discovering the game, you could say! Liking it quite a lot so far.

Mauh˙r managed to eat his way through all that pretty much only due to the fact that Saruman provided his 6 in courage for some very, very reliable "At the double!" rolls that made flanking and positioning a lot easier, not to mention countering Spirit Grasp. My Gondor opponent has Gondor and Halbarad, but he uses the Grey Company mainly for shooting and Aragorn was held in a tight spot.

So! Army of the dead was only 2 companies, and with a def of 6 the Orcs were pretty durable. Mauh˙r called a heroic fight, and so he got to slam into them twice, thus also benefitting from the rule twice.

His Dol Amroth knights had no Captain, and so he couldn't counter the Heroic Charge Mauh˙r and his lads did- this time there was no need for a heroic fight, because a firebolt from Saruman had already picked off 1 company and for the moment it was 1 wide, 2 deep (too tight).

After that, the Mauh˙r managed to circle around Aragorn (still solely due to Sarumans courage 6) and when the fighting phase came, he did a charge into the rear ranks and issued a heroic fight, killing off countless men until only half of the last company remained and it was auto-killed.

Once I've gotten a musician on Mauh˙r I suspect his flanking will become even crazier- and if I always make sure he hits a flank or rear, odds for winning (and gathering meat!) are way higher. They are the fighting Uruk-Hai after all, and slaying great warriors is what they do best!

Rule question, however!

Lets say Mauh˙r fights a formation that contains a (friendly) Gollum. Am I right in understanding that Gollum will add an additional casualty both when:

1. The fighting is done as long as 1 casualty is made
2. Once again when Mauh˙r gathers meat if winning
3. A third time if the unit fails a courage test and takes another hit?

Or is it only in the combat phase that Gollum helps with an additional casualty? To me it'd seem right to take an additional, separate casuality in both case 1, 2 and 3.