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wbravenboer
31-03-2011, 10:01
Hello,
This evening my Orcs are going up against a strong veteran chaos player, we're doing a 2400 pt battle, and I was wondering what I can do to my orcs a bit better, as I lost the last fight.
My list is currently;
Grimgor and 19 Immortulz (cause he is fun!)
Lvl3 Orc Shaman
Savage Big Boss BSB (crown of command)
2x Goblin Big Boss (sigil sword for those pesky challenges)
38 Night Goblins FC (netters)
36 Orcs FC
36 Savage Orcs Big Uns FC
5 Boar Boyz FC
Arachnarok with Flinger

I could change Grimgor for a Black Orc Boss perhaps, my opponent has a very scary Chaos Lord and lots of heroes with challenge-issues... also he is very Marauder oriented and has a War-Altar.
The Spider is perhaps not strong enough, is a Rock Lobba better?

Tips, advice?

Haravikk
31-03-2011, 10:15
I'm not an Orcs & Goblins player myself but I can make a few general points that might help:

First up, I think that the preferred set-up for an Arachnarok is really the spider shrine, though using it as a mount for a shaman can be asking for trouble so you need to balance the risk and reward and decide what to do. I'd do it just because it's cool personally, but if you're determined to show the Chaos player who's boss then you might want to just go for a naked Arachnarok, or swap it for more basic troops.

Rock Lobbas could certainly help though, particularly in whittling down the, extremely good for their points, Marauders, the more you can kill the easier a time your own troops will have.

The unit of 5 Boar Boyz seems far too small to be particularly effective, handy as a supporting charge but in future I think you'll want to bulk it up to at least 10 (preferably more).

wbravenboer
31-03-2011, 10:36
The Arachnorok Spidershrine is very costly, and as my spider was killed very quickly last time, I rather invest in a killing machine, the flinger is perhaps a way to slow down the Marauder blocks (S1, but gives ASL for the next turn). The boar boyz are to protect the flanks against the marauder horsemen, and for support the main charge. I am a bit constrained for models, I rather use units for which I have the models, so no mangler squig yet (!). Marauders are nasty, and his small Chaos Warriors unit with Lord is very, very scary...

russellmoo
31-03-2011, 10:43
More black orcs,

lose the flinger- keep that spider as cheap as possible-

Cast foot of gork every magic phase- the big version- and just stomp him to death, so gear up your shaman to do this- i.e. powerscroll- if you are opposed to this you could take a powerstone for the extra dice-

Yowzo
31-03-2011, 11:54
I'm yet to play chaos with the new book.

Usually I invested in a gobbo boss on giant squig with lucky dirk or backstabbers blade and triksy trinket to go shrine and mage-hunting, plus a gobbo bsb with the spider banner in a big unit of gobbo archers to wipe barbarians on poisoned ranged attacks, plus warboss on a wyvern with trickster's shard (again, to deal with shrines and those pesky ward chosen).

Obviously, this has completely changed this edition (spider banner is now prohibitive, triksy trinket is gone) so in order to face chaos I'd do something like:

Warboss on wyvern w/triksy trinket, ASF sword and some ward (again, flying thunderstomping, ward-negating thing that will take care of shrines, disk mages and other stuff, later on it will flank those pesky chosen).

Gobbos w/nets and fanatics, lots of them (you want them steadfast for long)
Blacks/savage big uns/trolls (to flank those warriors while they're S-1 thanks to the nets, you don't want to charge them up front either, as they'll strike faster and harder)
Fast things with impact hits to soften up
Lobbas for marauders, doom divers for WoCses. Same as above.
Magic, a lv4 orc to ensure you get foot of gork and stomp and stomp and stomp them to death, a ward save only goes so far. Getting a gobbo shaman to cast gork'll fix it first on them before would just be perfect.
Bow wolves would also help in generally disrupting those big blocks unarmored marauders.
If you must field the aracnarock, go naked, and charge a flank.

Malorian
31-03-2011, 12:22
Can you tell us what his list looked like last time?

wbravenboer
31-03-2011, 12:25
I like your thinking! ;)
Love the Wyvern, I have one, and as there is no cannon on the field, he could be useful... mmm
He uses the mark of Nurgle, that is a difficult one in combat, perhaps two kitted out shamans, an Orc and a Goblin. One of the problems is his challenge, especially his Lord and exalted ones... I have to try to keep him locked and then attack with the Wyvern and Spider. The Boars or perhaps Spiders are there to screen the flanks and perhaps trying to get the War Altar (which is not a wuss in combat either!). A night goblin Horde could be helpful? Some pimped up bosses inside and netters, fanatics are kind of random and costly in points. I need units that can hold out, I think. Trolls are vulnerable, as his altar and eye of the gods can give him flaming attacks too!

wbravenboer
31-03-2011, 12:31
Malorian! The Master himself! Love your reports by the way!!
His list is (as far as I can say)
a Chaos lord, with aethersword, and some kind of war-bellow, banshee like
2 wizards level 2 (nurgle)
2 heroes and BSB (I think)
15 chaos warriors
2x30 Marauders
2x5 Wolves
2x5 Horsemen
War Altar
all have mark of nurgle

He is a very good player, but a fun character and very helpful.

wbravenboer
31-03-2011, 12:36
I forgot!
He also has a Chariot!
Bloody thing killed my spider...

Malorian
31-03-2011, 12:44
Very anti character then with both nurgle snipers and I'm assuming that's the yell that can target a model. With that in mind I don't think grimgor is the right idea.

Mark or nurgle is a pain but in a way it is also a waste as night goblins are already hitting on a 5+, your elites (black orcs, big uns, and squigs) are still hitting on 4+, and it's only regular orcs that get worse but then again in 8th they should be avoided.

Can I assume those marauders have great weapons? Or are they shields and ranked up?

How did a chariot kill an arachnarok? Is there a character on it too?

The nice thing is that your opponent has so much tied into characters that he doesn't have much troops. Because of this he is in a prime spot to be ground down himself.


What models do you have available to make a list?

Chaos Undecided
31-03-2011, 12:45
Not really a power build on the chaos army in my opinion, not that I consider that a bad thing maybe all you need is a bit of better luck in the magic phase or with dice in general. Not a fan of 5 man Boar units I have to say dont think they're capable of doing anything at that size you'd be better putting their points into more Blorc bodyguards.

wbravenboer
31-03-2011, 13:21
I have most models available, around 60 night gobbos, 80 orcs, 40 black orcs, 40 savages, 10 wolfriders, 15 boar boyz, 10 spider riders, 2 chukkas, 1 lobba, 15 squig hoppers, fanatics, 20 goblins, 3 skulkers, several shamans, heros, BSB models, arachnarok, giant, and the boss on wyvern...
Main problem is low Iniative and the -1 to hit in CC (that's why I was thinking Flinger)
It is a long time ago I played with the orcs, I am a serious addict of The New Army Syndrome ;)

Malorian
31-03-2011, 14:09
Remember that you aren't -1 to hit in CC, you are -1 WS. This is very different.

Ok so you'll want the horde of savages to take on the marauder (especially if they have great weapons) and you'll want the black orc horde to take on the warriors (go great weapon and just smash them).

Now you dno't have enough gobbos for a good sized horde so I would take them ranked and then pair them with the arachnarok. The gobbos take away steadfast and the spider makes sure you win combat.

Given what you have it looks like we'll need to use those regular orcs too. If they have 2 choppas then go with a horde, if they have shields then you might want to go ranked and change places with the gobbos.

A big thing is to keep your key characters out of combat and safe. You need that leadership bubble. Support characters are possible but you'll have to pretty much refuse every challange.


Here is a list if your models match:

Lvl 4 orc great shaman w/ dispel scroll (225)
night goblin bsb w/ banner of discipline (65)
40 orcs w/ extra choppa, banner (290) (horde)
40 orcs w/ extra choppa, banner (290) (horde)
50 night goblins w/ nets, banner (205) (ranked)
20 goblins w/ banner, 2 skulkers (bunker) (90)
40 savage orc big uns w/ extra choppa, banner (450) (horde)
40 black orcs w/ banner (490) (horde)
Arachnarok (290)

Total: 2395

General fomation would look like: savages, orcs, arachnarok, night goblins w/ bunker and characters behind, orcs, black orcs

But this would change depending on his formation.

wbravenboer
31-03-2011, 14:17
Looks good, but with all those hordes it could get crowded, should I deploy them in front of each-other? We normally place around three terrain pieces in the centre. Will let you know how it works out! After the Grey Knights and Tomb Kings, I will buy some more gobbos!

Malorian
31-03-2011, 14:43
I'm always fine :) The only one that is behind the other is the bunker.

Going from board edge to board edge is also good as it keeps him from flanking you and getting to the bunker.

Placing terrain in the center is not how you are suppose to play according to the book, and the reason for this is that it forces you to split your forces which is an obvious handicap to low leadership armies. You answer is to crowd on one side which is an obvious advantage to elite armies (did your WoC friend come up with this idea? ;)).

I HIGHLY suggest giving the terrain rules from the book a try :)

TMATK
31-03-2011, 15:59
This won't help if he takes the same list, but it might if he makes changes

If he takes a hellcannon or 2, make sure you don't deploy close to the edge or deploy units in front of each other. Something will panic off the table, and cause a chain reaction that can all but end the game before you even get to go. It's happened to me more then once until I wised up.

If he takes lore of Tzeentch, go out of your way to dispel Pandemonium. If you have units in combat I would even spend a dispel scroll on it. You can let Treason through, unless he casts it on your black orcs.

sssk
31-03-2011, 16:14
I know it appears that you don't have the model (and it's flippin' expensive for what it is!) but might I suggest you try getting your hands on a doom diver?

Best artillery piece I've come across for quite a while.

wbravenboer
31-03-2011, 18:49
WAAAAGH! Malorian!
I used Malorian's tips, with a few minor changes, as I did not have the goblins with skulkers ready. But the massive blocks of orcs did their work, and massacred the Chaos from the table!
His list also had Chaos Ogres and a spawn, but he could not flank my units, and in combat the Orcs held, the Savage Orcs won their combat with two big Marauder units, the Black Orcs killed 7 chaos warriors in one turn, and the spider survived till the fifth round.
He was very surprised, and very gracious in his defeat, and the end of the sixth turn he only had the War Altar and a small Chaos warrior unit with his lord.
So next week will be the re-match!
Very nice game, I kept my army close together, his magic did some damage, but the Dispell Scroll save my units from the Cloying Quagmire. My magic was not very strong, the unit with my wizard failed their animosity two times, perhaps next time I put the Shaman by himself? I also used a Rock Lobba, he did very well, and disrupted his units nicely. Great!!! Thanks for all the tips, guys!!

Malorian
31-03-2011, 19:45
Glad to hear it all worked out.


Just be careful with the lone mage idea. Might work against WoC but it's risky.

Urgat
31-03-2011, 21:11
My shaman would run on his own during 7th ed against warriors, but not anymore, magic can easily smash him away, chaos got plenty spells w/o LoS, and our magic defense is all but gone.

Thaukrek
04-04-2011, 20:22
I have an important question about this. I'm playing a league with my Orcs&Goblins army, and I want to defeat Chaos, but they have a Chaos Warriors Chosen unit with 3+ ward save and 3+ armor save... and another improvements... (they take this with two Chaos temples)... they roll a lot of times the dice in the God's Eye table and always get the 4+ ward save and improve it to 3+ with the Tzeentch's Mark... is he cheating? How can I destroy that unit? Thank for your help!

(Sorry for my low level of english, I'm spanish...)

Malorian
04-04-2011, 20:36
I have an important question about this. I'm playing a league with my Orcs&Goblins army, and I want to defeat Chaos, but they have a Chaos Warriors Chosen unit with 3+ ward save and 3+ armor save... and another improvements... (they take this with two Chaos temples)... they roll a lot of times the dice in the God's Eye table and always get the 4+ ward save and improve it to 3+ with the Tzeentch's Mark... is he cheating? How can I destroy that unit? Thank for your help!

(Sorry for my low level of english, I'm spanish...)

How do you destroy an unbeatable unit? Simple! You don't! :p

You see that super unit of his worth a ton of points, take a unit of 100 night goblins w/ nets and bog them down. He will be fighting hard just to break your steadfast the entire game and all the while you will be hunting down the rest of his army.

The best way into a castle is rarely the front gate ;)

krone
19-09-2012, 03:15
I have an important question about this. I'm playing a league with my Orcs&Goblins army, and I want to defeat Chaos, but they have a Chaos Warriors Chosen unit with 3+ ward save and 3+ armor save... and another improvements... (they take this with two Chaos temples)... they roll a lot of times the dice in the God's Eye table and always get the 4+ ward save and improve it to 3+ with the Tzeentch's Mark... is he cheating? How can I destroy that unit? Thank for your help!

(Sorry for my low level of english, I'm spanish...)

I'm just played my 2nd game and i'm having this exact same problem. I will try bog him down with my netters next game ;)

Ghremdal
19-09-2012, 10:13
Try to ignore/tarpit them. They don't put out that much dakka that NG's cant hold them for a couple of turns.

Charging them in the flank with a killy unit also works. You should have more ranks and more static combat res, while he won't do many wounds. With luck you can run him down. Assuming Tzeench Chosen that are 4 deep with halberds. From the flank they get 4 models in btb (8 attacks). Against Savage Orc Big Un's (troll horde is even better against this) they inflict 2.37 wounds (with 5+ ward on Big Un's), while you get at least charge + flank + 3 ranks and a 6 wide Big Un unit should inflict 2.2 wounds even with the 3+ ward up. Thus you should be able to beat them in combat handily and run them down with a little luck. The hard thing is getting the flank charge off.

The other sneaky way is to use two units of wolf riders, and keep placing them 5" in front of the chosen. With good positioning you can keep the chosen moving at most 4" per turn and out of combat for the lot of the game. The key here is to take care of his chaff killers (which he shouldn't have a lot of).

venomx51
15-10-2012, 12:59
they roll a lot of times the dice in the God's Eye table and always get the 4+ ward save and improve it to 3+ with the Tzeentch's Mark... is he cheating?
Unfortunately not; It's a costly unit to make. iirc, the chosen need a fear/terror causing item (banner usually?), an item to allow re-rolling on the EOTG table and another to adjust the roll by +/- 1, and it gives quite good odds of getting the 4+ ward save. But it's a hugely expensive unit to make, and there's nothing more satisfying than keeping your opponents biggest point sink from doing anything other than killing cheap goblins for 5 turns. :)

And not so much with marauders, but if he likes using a lot of chaos warrior/knights then mangler squigs and doom divers are your best friends. The mangler squigs cant be engaged in close combat, and have a huge armour modifier when they hit, and the doom divers have no armour saves allowed and can pick off the advancing units.

Soundwave
15-10-2012, 15:09
My shaman would run on his own during 7th ed against warriors, but not anymore, magic can easily smash him away, chaos got plenty spells w/o LoS, and our magic defense is all but gone.


I have an important question about this. I'm playing a league with my Orcs&Goblins army, and I want to defeat Chaos, but they have a Chaos Warriors Chosen unit with 3+ ward save and 3+ armor save... and another improvements... (they take this with two Chaos temples)... they roll a lot of times the dice in the God's Eye table and always get the 4+ ward save and improve it to 3+ with the Tzeentch's Mark... is he cheating? How can I destroy that unit? Thank for your help!

(Sorry for my low level of english, I'm spanish...)

Its not so much cheating its just terrible,boring and dirty tactics! You wont win even if you avoid the said unit it is such a points denial! You guys should prevent this somehow,let the guy know it is a loophole and throws the balance and spirit out of the game! Its for his own good that said unit will not be around for ever,then he wont know how to play!

Anyhow slightly off topic sorry O.P. I play chaos and savage orcs give me a hard time as well as mangler squigs wich are my first spell priority. Lots and lots of orc boys do eventually take thier toll on my chaos warriors being smaller units.

Harwammer
15-10-2012, 15:16
If he takes lore of Tzeentch, go out of your way to dispel Pandemonium. If you have units in combat I would even spend a dispel scroll on it. You can let Treason through, unless he casts it on your black orcs.

Agreed on Panda. He can't Treason on black orcs (or savages) cos they are ITP now. Treason can't be cast on ITP.

If he likes characters it may be worth taking your own guy with a sword of anti heroes.

Oogie boogie boss
16-10-2012, 16:02
Agreed on Panda. He can't Treason on black orcs (or savages) cos they are ITP now. Treason can't be cast on ITP.

I've just had a look on the FAQ, as Treason of Tzeentch hurt my sorc army last time out, and I can't find any mention of it not working against units which are ItP. Where are you getting that from?

CyderPyrate89
16-10-2012, 19:01
Its in the spell description itself. "Target one unengaged enemy unit that is not Immune to Psychology. If that unit is within 24""....

Oogie boogie boss
17-10-2012, 07:48
Oooooh, me and my chaos friend are going to have words. He forgot to mention that when I asked him what the spell does.....