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TrojanWolf
02-04-2011, 09:37
Not something particularly big, just about seeing something differently.

Today I played a game against another Skaven player, though he was lacking in points to make up a full in store game (1,250pts in my local store). I suggested he ask to borrow some of the stores models to make up the difference. I knew that the store had a Hell Pit Abomination along with some other things and that would beef it up nicely.

Now while I've made use of HPAs extensively in the past (the majority of my collection being Clan Moulder), I've never played against one before today. I figured I kind of owed it to myself to see just how strong it is...

Well, I can certainly see what I've been subjecting people to in the past. The thing ate an entire unit of clanrats, some rat ogres, a unit of stormvermin with my warlord (who inflicted the first wound on it with a rebounding warpstone armour hit before being unceremoniously thunderstomped to death) and half a unit of plague monks before I managed to kill it. Thankfully it only turned into rat swarms, especially since my WLC couldn't do anything but land short.

For some reason, a High Elf army seems appealing right now. :shifty:

Anywho, has anyone else had a similar experience? Not just with the HPA, but with something that you normally use, then faced and thought "wow, that's powerful!"

Rosstifer
02-04-2011, 10:02
Only faced one once, and I knew in advance. One Khorne Chaos Lord with Hellfire Sword = Dead Abom in turn 2.

drear
02-04-2011, 10:10
ive never played against one, and the local skaven player doesnt use it, favoring the more fun aspects of skaven like the doomwheel and flayer.

ifi ever had ti face one id just try and ram flaming units at it until it died.

TrojanWolf
02-04-2011, 10:48
Only faced one once, and I knew in advance. One Khorne Chaos Lord with Hellfire Sword = Dead Abom in turn 2.

Either your opponent didn't know about the Hellfire Sword or he was feeling way too cocky. I know I'd avoid that Lord like the plague if I knew about it. :eek:

jthdotcom
02-04-2011, 10:53
I like the way no one has answered the posters question....I have had the same experience with the Bloodknight Bus:-6 Bloodknights, with a Bsb, banner that gives regen, banner that gives 4+ ward against shooting, and a vamp lord with dreadlance and red fury. It was worse back in 7th. I lent a friend my vamp army once and just couldn't kill them, they went through about half of my armoured (and trolls) WOC army on their own, about 1200 points took out about double. I stopped using that unit after that

Rosstifer
02-04-2011, 10:56
He didn't know what equipment I had. My elation at killing the Abom was short lived however, next turn my Level 2 on disc ended up being 1/4 of an inch closer to a Doomwheel than some Slaves, and got zapped to death for his troubles. :(.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
02-04-2011, 11:48
I've tried a few builds that really surprised me, and a few where a single unit dominated the game, usually this leads to not repeating this - I like Poker more than Solitaire ;)

I do have a nice little 7th ed. ABomb memory. First the A-bomb rolled just enough move to charge and obliterate my blood knights with flaming banner, and a few rounds later, it reached a 30 man unit of skellies+vamp bsb, after the first round of combat there were only two skellies left :p

Rosstifer
02-04-2011, 12:02
I have recently used the cheese WOC list with 30 Chosen, toting MOT, Halberds, Terror Banner, BSB with Banner of Rage, and 2 Warshrines. 4 Turns into that game, when they had Stubborn, 3++, T and S5, my O&G opponent, an easy going chap, was the most visibly stressed I've ever seen him. I won't take that build till the next tournament, it just wasn't fun.

Well. Maybe a little, in a guilty "single handedly destroying an army" kind of way. But still.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-04-2011, 12:50
I've switched armies with my opponents a number of times in 6th, 7th and 8th edition, but, because I try to avoid anything ridiculous in my armies, I've not had a problem facing them.

I'm yet to try facing my current dark elf list across the table and that's got a hydra, which drives my opponents crazy, so I'd like to try a switch game with my dark elves next time I play.

Zaonite
02-04-2011, 14:49
I have no problems with HPA with either my HE or my Brets. HE can pump out enough damage through swordmasters and white lions to not be worried and my Bret Lord goes monster hunting every game with heroic killing blow.

They can be nasty though.

TrojanWolf
02-04-2011, 23:42
I like the way no one has answered the posters question....I have had the same experience with the Bloodknight Bus:-6 Bloodknights, with a Bsb, banner that gives regen, banner that gives 4+ ward against shooting, and a vamp lord with dreadlance and red fury. It was worse back in 7th. I lent a friend my vamp army once and just couldn't kill them, they went through about half of my armoured (and trolls) WOC army on their own, about 1200 points took out about double. I stopped using that unit after that

I know what you mean about not using it again. My HPAs aren't coming out when I'm not playing tournaments or really big games now, and even then I'll probably just use one instead of the two I would normally field in a Clan Moulder list.

Besides, I just went to the trouble of turning a Carnifex into a WLC so it fits in with my army. :D


I have recently used the cheese WOC list with 30 Chosen, toting MOT, Halberds, Terror Banner, BSB with Banner of Rage, and 2 Warshrines. 4 Turns into that game, when they had Stubborn, 3++, T and S5, my O&G opponent, an easy going chap, was the most visibly stressed I've ever seen him. I won't take that build till the next tournament, it just wasn't fun.

Well. Maybe a little, in a guilty "single handedly destroying an army" kind of way. But still.

Probably a good idea to reserve that one for tourneys too. Just reading that makes me want to curl up in a ball. Though I don't think there isn't one among us that doesn't have that guilty pleasure even a little when that happens.

WDWOLF
03-04-2011, 18:25
OP: part of the reason for your feelings regarding the HPA are probably due to the fact that this is the first time you have faced it and had no idea what to do about it.

I had the same feeling the first 2 or 3 times facing an HPA. I play LM and 70+% of the time I play against Skaven. While difficult I have learned how to manage the HPA. I'm not always successful, but when I fail it's to do bad luck, timing or judgement on my part, not because the HPA is overpwoered or anything.

Keep playing the HPA, your opponents will learn and adapt.

vinny t
03-04-2011, 18:55
I had planned on making an Ogres list with an IronStar but after playing my brother using that list it just seemed rediculous. I spent 6 turns keeping my TG away from it and ended up losing due to the skink units i fed it.

DarkstarSabre
03-04-2011, 19:19
OP: part of the reason for your feelings regarding the HPA are probably due to the fact that this is the first time you have faced it and had no idea what to do about it.

I had the same feeling the first 2 or 3 times facing an HPA. I play LM and 70+% of the time I play against Skaven. While difficult I have learned how to manage the HPA. I'm not always successful, but when I fail it's to do bad luck, timing or judgement on my part, not because the HPA is overpwoered or anything.

Keep playing the HPA, your opponents will learn and adapt.

Going to a Tournament next weekend.

My plan for HPAs?

Temple Guard. Life Slann. Banner of Eternal Flame. Bring the Hydras and HPAs!

Bazzal
03-04-2011, 21:28
i do love the idea and fluff with hellpits but ingame i still use doomwheels over them 1 higher toughness and cheaper, plus love the lightning which itself can kill a hellpit.

Maoriboy007
03-04-2011, 21:40
I like the way no one has answered the posters question....I have had the same experience with the Bloodknight Bus:-6 Bloodknights, with a Bsb, banner that gives regen, banner that gives 4+ ward against shooting, and a vamp lord with dreadlance and red fury. It was worse back in 7th. I lent a friend my vamp army once and just couldn't kill them, they went through about half of my armoured (and trolls) WOC army on their own, about 1200 points took out about double. I stopped using that unit after that

Thats a bit different than the sangle monster running amok. A Bloodknight deathstar is usually about half your army focused in one unit , so the expectations of its damage output shouldn't be as unexpected as it generally is. Personally its too much of an eggs in one basket for my liking, it'll either win you the game easily or lose you the game easily.

TrojanWolf
03-04-2011, 23:33
OP: part of the reason for your feelings regarding the HPA are probably due to the fact that this is the first time you have faced it and had no idea what to do about it.

I had the same feeling the first 2 or 3 times facing an HPA. I play LM and 70+% of the time I play against Skaven. While difficult I have learned how to manage the HPA. I'm not always successful, but when I fail it's to do bad luck, timing or judgement on my part, not because the HPA is overpwoered or anything.

Keep playing the HPA, your opponents will learn and adapt.

Oh, I knew what I was going to do about it. The idea was to shoot it with the WLC, which would hopefully get me a quick kill. Delpoyment was not kind to me though, with a building smack in the middle of the only firing arc I really had for it. The result being that most of the time the WLC didn't have a clear shot at it, and when it did the bloody thing was in combat with my units so I couldn't shoot it.

Plan B was to cast Cloud of Corruption as much as I could, hoping for big numbers of S5 hits on it, but as it goes that '1' will show up when you least need it... the Priest still killed it though, almost single handed with his plague censer.

Besides, I usually only bring what I need for a single list when I go in, so chopping and changing is only if I need to play less points than I have. It's not like I'm not going to play against it again though, just that I'm not going to take it in friendly games anymore.


i do love the idea and fluff with hellpits but ingame i still use doomwheels over them 1 higher toughness and cheaper, plus love the lightning which itself can kill a hellpit.

I've used the Doomwheel, but I still prefer the HPA over it. Mostly due to regen and the extra wound, but also because when I run it alongside my Skinkslaves for some reason it always rolls S2 for its lightning and kills none of them. I like shooting my Skinkslaves, so it's disappointing when none of them die!

WDWOLF
04-04-2011, 01:10
Going to a Tournament next weekend.

My plan for HPAs?

Temple Guard. Life Slann. Banner of Eternal Flame. Bring the Hydras and HPAs!

I generally have Eternal Flame on my TG as well.

My typical means of dealing with the HPA usually works very well.

When playing Skaven, I ignore slaves completely (sure let 'em hit my Saurus flank, I don't rely on steadfast and they give me CR as I chop 'em up) and let my Saurus and TG handle Clanrats, monks, bell whatever. For the HPA, I will dedicate one of my Sallys and one or two units of skirmishers (I usually have 3 and one unit of chamo's).

The sally will soften him up (remove Regen) and then the skinks blow pipe him. He dies. Sometimes my Slann or Skink Priest will throw a spell at it to deliver a killing blow. This works especially well when he rolls too high on the HPA's movement but too short to hit anything.

I find once I deal with the HPA, Doom Wheels and artillery with skirmishers, chamos and my flying Skink Chief Assassin, I can handle the rest of the rats. That is my general plan and it works well for me.

Godswildcard
04-04-2011, 16:22
I typically run my Dragon Princes with the banner of eternal catch things on fire, or whatever its called, and they seem to be able to take care of the HPA through sheer number of high WS, decent strength hits on the charge.

Now, if I don't get the charge, or if I roll rather horribly, then my nice, expensive unit of dragon princes goes bye-bye VERY quickly...not even funny.

longshot007
04-04-2011, 16:48
The first time i fought a HPA i killed it with a cannon on turn 1 >_>

Rosstifer
04-04-2011, 16:52
I typically run my Dragon Princes with the banner of eternal catch things on fire, or whatever its called, and they seem to be able to take care of the HPA through sheer number of high WS, decent strength hits on the charge.

Now, if I don't get the charge, or if I roll rather horribly, then my nice, expensive unit of dragon princes goes bye-bye VERY quickly...not even funny.

I know 2 guys who are like this, the HE player spends alot of time moving the Dragon Princes, and usually their games come down to who manages to charge. The DP's really need the Lance bonus to deal with it.

Baris
04-04-2011, 17:17
I came to the realization that I do not want to be on the receiving end of my Lizardmen stegadon list when my worst game with it so far is a solid victory. I guess six stegadons will do that...

Rosstifer
04-04-2011, 17:22
6 Stegadons would worry me more in 7th TBH.

hashrat
04-04-2011, 18:23
I've switched armies with my opponents a number of times in 6th, 7th and 8th edition, but, because I try to avoid anything ridiculous in my armies, I've not had a problem facing them.

I'm yet to try facing my current dark elf list across the table and that's got a hydra, which drives my opponents crazy, so I'd like to try a switch game with my dark elves next time I play.

Worst thing I ever will face (and have faced) is my own Bretonnian HKB lord, who is so much cheese I am considering re-basing him on a cracker.

Hydra, Giant, Stank, you name it, splat!
As fun to use as to face, very little! Both my new Stank and Araknarok did nothing and disappeared to his first hits when I used him, my Hydra was gone before even the crew could strike when I faced him.

My DE are getting confidence issues from Bretonnia lol, always close, results in awesome games.

Other than that I haven't often faced my own forces and my Skaven are 1k short of entering our campaign, so no HPA/Slave/dreaded 13th stories to share yet.

Oh, I finally bought a Trebuchet! My DE can't wait for S5 to meet T3..... actually think that out of my 6 armies Bretonnians may be the best.

Jind_Singh
04-04-2011, 18:43
So a few weeks ago we had a tournament (20 players) and my O & G came 1st, winning all of their games - hard fought matches.

Afterwards we had some beers and then me and my mate swapped armies - I took a Dwarf army with lots and lots of warriors, etc, he took my list.

That b%^&$%d Night Goblin Shaman level 4! WOW! I didn't realize just how revolting the magic phase was, and that damned mushroom, until I saw him DESTROY my entire army with a single Shaman! He ran around casting the big version of 'Curse of the Bad Moon', and destroyed my proud warriors! At the end of the game I believe just 3 Crossbow armed Dwarf returned to their halls in shame, he had wiped out 100's of my stunties with that one Shaman!

And I've done that to others - used my NG SHaman to execute my army plans - but never like the way he did, he had me in awe of my own model/army book!

WDWOLF
04-04-2011, 20:19
Other than that I haven't often faced my own forces and my Skaven are 1k short of entering our campaign, so no HPA/Slave/dreaded 13th stories to share yet.

Once when playing my friend and his disgusting rat-things my Temple Guard unit (with Slann) was down to 14 models. He decided to cast the Dreaded 13th spell. Unfortunately he got it off and rolled high enough to turn all the models into rats.

With a heavy sigh, I removed all the TG and finally the Slann. He was like, "whoa wait, the Slann isn't affected, he isn't infantry."

With a heavy heart I looked at him and said, "Yes, he is."

"Really," he replies incredulously.

"yes."

At which point he does a giddy happy dance. I let him have his moment.

The upside, without the Slann and the TG I was able to eek out a draw. :-)

TrojanWolf
04-04-2011, 23:02
I typically run my Dragon Princes with the banner of eternal catch things on fire, or whatever its called, and they seem to be able to take care of the HPA through sheer number of high WS, decent strength hits on the charge.

Now, if I don't get the charge, or if I roll rather horribly, then my nice, expensive unit of dragon princes goes bye-bye VERY quickly...not even funny.

You really have to make sure those DPs kill it on the charge though. I had a HPA get flanked by them with the flaming banner, they brought it down to one wound, it ate them.

Well, I was happy enough. :D


Once when playing my friend and his disgusting rat-things my Temple Guard unit (with Slann) was down to 14 models. He decided to cast the Dreaded 13th spell. Unfortunately he got it off and rolled high enough to turn all the models into rats.

With a heavy sigh, I removed all the TG and finally the Slann. He was like, "whoa wait, the Slann isn't affected, he isn't infantry."

With a heavy heart I looked at him and said, "Yes, he is."

"Really," he replies incredulously.

"yes."

At which point he does a giddy happy dance. I let him have his moment.

The upside, without the Slann and the TG I was able to eek out a draw. :-)

I did that to some Swordmasters and a BSB once. Holding the Watchtower. In the same game as the DP incident above. :D

To add insult to injury, roughly two turns prior I aimed Cracks Call at his Archmage general, who promptly failed LO,S and his I test. :D

Funnily enough, I still lost. Darn PG and their ward saves, and that WLC causing only one wound on that chariot... the only thing I had left was the Bell itself.

Gonzoyola
05-04-2011, 02:49
I've faced the HPA only once. My friend and I just recently started going to the Chicago Bunker, and the only army I've yet to face that isnt my friend, was some nice enough fellow that wanted to play my Beastmen with his Skaven. As it stands, I just take a 2500 point all comers list, and he wanted to play 2000, so I chopped some things up. I had never even seen the HPA, just heard of it, so when he rolled up nice and quick, I delivered my Bestigors right into his face. Needless to say, the unit got pulverized within about 2 rounds of combat, the pain in the ass was that I did manage to kill it, twice, and he rolled for it to come back, twice, and then after he destroyed the whole unit of bestigors, plus the shaman they had been carrying, all that was left was my Beastlord and my Wargor BSB. I finally got the damned thing to just turn into a swarm of rats, and after that I counted my self lucky. The thing still earned its points, with a comfortable extra 150 pts or so on top. Had I taken the eternal flame on my Bestigors, it would have been crushed mercilessly, so although it throughly scared me, I know what to do the next time I see it.

Jind_Singh
05-04-2011, 07:46
I think posters are confused! This is not a thread for general stores/tactics - it's a cool concept the OP has - we all play our armies day in, day out.

We all have our 'special friend' units that work well for us, and we all have our killer combos.

BUT have you ever been on the wrong end of YOUR OWN COMBO/TACTIC/UNIT!

I.E. you play Empire all the time and love the 'x' combo with Steam Tank and Knights. Then one day you take your army out to battle and see someone roll down your own flank with a Steam Tank and Knights and nuke you with your own 'x' combo!

Because then it puts a fresh look at things - makes you realize how stunning your combo/tactic is, sometimes to the point were you even retire it!

Stories people - I know you gots them and we wants them!

Hive Fleet Snackin'
05-04-2011, 09:49
Two of my more regular opponents collect Skaven. I myself have a pretty decent collection of Skaven (about 6k points), but I play the vast majority of my games with my Bretonnians.

Virtually every game (and they like to play large games) looks like this:

-Queek and his stormvermin
-Grey Seer on Bell
-Plague Priest on Furnace
-DMS
-Hellpit
-Doomwheel
-Plagueclaw catapults and several poisoned wind mortar teams

I consider this to be some pretty heavy-handed cheese, especially with one of the two guys thinking about adding ANOTHER HPA to that list, and having next to no units in the Bret army book that scale up to large size games (i.e., no Bells / Furnaces, just more units of knights that cap at 15).

Now, I win most of my games, but I have to pull out all of the tricks in my book, which include:

-Dwellers
-HKB Lord
-6-8 Grail Knights with the flaming banner
-2 Trebuchets

My opponents ENDLESSLY gripe about Dwellers, the trebuchets (which rarely hit) and tell me I'm being cheesy for using the flaming banner, which usually annihilates the HPA on the charge before it even gets to strike. Yet they seem not to appreciate how I might feel facing off against 2 unbreakable units, a stormvermin unit that can destroy pretty much any unit before it even gets to attack, and usually a dozen teams/machines/spells that outright ignore my armor saves. I've faced Dwellers before and I know it's irritating, but it's also a clearcut lesson in not building deathstar units which they run game after game against me without learning to change things up.

The lesson I've learned from this isn't just that I'd like to be fair when playing my Skaven, it's completely killed any desire I ever had to field them at all because I see the book abused by powergaming ambitions on a weekly basis.

The HPA itself isn't cheese, but I've learned a very valuable preventative lesson about not being a jerk with an army that you own just because you can.

Gonzoyola
05-04-2011, 10:03
The HPA itself isn't cheese, but I've learned a very valuable preventative lesson about not being a jerk with an army that you own just because you can.

I agree, it really isn't too cheesy as its easy to counter. My only gripe is looking at how that costs substantially less than a Ghorgon / Cygor / Jabber when it has everything that these units don't, on top of everything they do.

Hive Fleet Snackin'
05-04-2011, 10:09
I agree, it really isn't too cheesy as its easy to counter. My only gripe is looking at how that costs substantially less than a Ghorgon / Cygor / Jabber when it has everything that these units don't, on top of everything they do.

Sometimes I suspect that manatees floating in pools with numbered balls underlie the point-costing process.

TrojanWolf
05-04-2011, 12:25
Virtually every game (and they like to play large games) looks like this:

-Queek and his stormvermin
-Grey Seer on Bell
-Plague Priest on Furnace
-DMS
-Hellpit
-Doomwheel
-Plagueclaw catapults and several poisoned wind mortar teams

I'd have to agree with you on that being cheese, and I'd imagine it becoming quite monotonous if both players are using it. I have something in the vicinity of 9k points of Skaven, including most of those units, but I like to think that I'd at least switch my list around every so often. I can only play 1,250pt games regularly, but I do like to take a different list every once in a while. On that topic, I don't see anything wrong with the way you use your Bretonnians against this. If they're insisting on using the same list each time, stick with your method of combating it.

@ Jind_Singh - Yay, someone got it! :D

Jind_Singh
06-04-2011, 08:24
Oh another one! So there was this one annoying Warhammer player who played a fair few armies. But in all his games he would sit there, or shuffle back, and shoot, shoot, shoot, and then back away some more, and then when he'd ground your units down he'd FINALLY make some charges!

Knowing this I'd take my normal army - which has NO shooting apart from SIX short bows, 2 spear Chukkas, and run at him! Each game would end in heroic last stand of my units which were now at about 1/10 of their size.

I didn't mind so much expect the bugger would look SMUG after each game, saying he was a great general.

Then one day he took it too far - he put me down in front of other players, saying I didn't know how to play the game, that 'no one should listen to my advice' as I was a poor player.

I smiled and challenged him to a game, my Orcs & Goblins, and shouted it out to the crowd we'd be having a game the following week.

I turned up with...

Orc & Goblin gunline!

6 Chukkas
2 Lobbas
2 Doom Divers
Arrer Boyz

And then I had blocks of Night Goblins with fantics and short bows, plus one unit of Black Orcs.

My turns 1-3 I sat there and shot at him, zapped him with spells, and shuffled troops around.

His army took a beating - forcing him to move forward and engage me in melee - which I promptly won!

After the game (wasn't much of a game as it was murder!) he came up to me and complained, very bitterly, that the game was:

1) Frustrating
2) Unsporting
3) Not fun

For him as "all I did was sit there and shoot".

I very gently explained to him that EVERY game against him was like this, it's all he did, but it took me doing it to him to make him realize!

Did he change? Sadly no, he still plays the same game - but he's gotten a bit more fun now as he doesn't take himself seriously no more, and besides people are on to him. You can outgun him OR place 200 Goblins into a single unit and rush forwards!

I also threatened him with a 100 strong Orc unit if he didn't lighten up!

But it's nice to turn the tables on another player and use their very own tactics against them - so they can see just how others see them!

Don't you just love this hobby!

sasheep
06-04-2011, 09:37
Was teaching my friend how to play and he wanted to use my skaven so I ended up using my Slaanesh Daemons. The problem was he was using my pretty solid list with HPA, Bell and lots of skyre toys while I was using a more fun list.
The battle commenced and the first few turns were alright, not really going either way. 3rd turn came, his wlc blasted my daemon prince, his hpa destoryed my large unit of daemonettes, he got the 13th by IF and took out my large unit of fiends and his ratling gun rolled a 3,4,5,6 into my other daemonette unit.
I managed to get a draw slightly in his favor thanks to some good combat and magic, but oh my did he look smug!
Anyway, after a day of bragging and boasting he challenged me to a rematch. Thankfully that time I managed to restore my honor :p
I never knew just how annoying 13th, bell and hpa were untill then :p

Leogun_91
06-04-2011, 09:50
It never happened to me, the only cheese I used was abusing the Waaagh! spell in the last O&G book (ie Always used it every turn with lots of powerstones around to help me get it off) and I never faced that myself though one of my opponents used Van Hels quite a lot and it's vaguely similar.


Sometimes I suspect that manatees floating in pools with numbered balls underlie the point-costing process.Woah...Awesome, I want one of these pools.

TrojanWolf
06-04-2011, 12:20
he got the 13th by IF and took out my large unit of fiends

Fiends can't be affected by the 13th. They're not infantry. I suppose in a learning game it doesn't matter, but I suspect the game may have gone somewhat different had this not happened.

Point well made though, I can imagine having that happen would leave that impression. Though I've never seen a Ratling gun be even remotely useful for me.


Vindication for O&G

Outgunned by greenskins! Well done sir! Being a Clan Moulder and Chaos Warrior played, along with some dabbling in Brets and VCs I can safely say that I truly disdain the shooting phase. Especially watching my nice new Plague Furnace being shot out from under the Priest two games in a row... I even tried writing a Skaven gunline myself, but looking at the list for just a few seconds had me thinking "I can't subject anyone to that."

Squigkikka
06-04-2011, 12:38
I wish I could feel that way, really, but the most frightening thing I've ever fielded is a Giant and that my good man isn't very frightening at all!

If I got to face my own list (or similar kitted list) then I'd rub my hands and be all "o-HO, maybe I'll win today!"