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Dante blackfur
04-04-2011, 01:37
Hey, Ok, another odd and whacky unit in the skaven arsenal. the poisoned Wind Globiders Lovingly know as PWG. I really never see these guys used, are they that bad? do people just like other stuff? I would to hear you opinions.
here's what I can determine about them (Never used them before)

Pros:
You cam fire into combat.
Auto wounds on a 4+
No AS
Skirmishers
You can take a Mortar as a weapon Team :)

Cons:
you randomize when you fire into combat.
They're BS sucks (3)
If they get a 1 on they're attack the kill themselves.
they're kinda expensive (As far as skaven go :P)
they have really short range. (*") so you have to be right on top of the enemy to be useful.
The models are expensive. :(

So how do people use them (If at all) cause when I got my army (from a friend) it came with 25 SO I kinda want to use them (At least for one game) what are your thoughts onthe best way to use or not PWG? please discuss. enjoy.

scruffyryan
04-04-2011, 01:38
It is the cheapest way to add an extra poisoned wind mortar to your army?

Dante blackfur
04-04-2011, 01:40
yeah I guess, but is that the only reason people take them?

scruffyryan
04-04-2011, 01:57
Its the only one ive heard.

russellmoo
04-04-2011, 02:41
You take them to field the cheap poison wind mortar-

They are not fielded because, to be effective as a skirmishing unit you would need to field around 10- or you could do two units of five- they cost $10+ dollars a model- that means for a 100pt unit you have to spend $100-

Second- you rarely see heavily armored troops- the exception is WoC and Bret's- if you are in an environment where you are seeing a lot of WoC and Bret armies they might be a useful choice as you could tie up those chaos knights- or even a stand and shoot would be worth while- but when your max unit size is 15 and you tend to hit on either 5's of 6's and then wounding on 4+ this means a unit of 15 will only do 2.5 wounds on a stand and shoot- this means nothing to a block of real infantry and very little to a similar sized skirmishing unit-

But really- they are only good if your opponent has single wound models that are 20-30pts a piece- due to the trade off- a unit of 10 is only likely to kill about 6 models-

I've used them in large games at 3000 points as a unit of 6 with a poison wind mortar- they work well in this role as spotters for a mortar which can hide behind a building while the PWG occupy the building, same is true for a forest- but really they are more of a distraction and nuisance- and sometimes a throw away unit to delay a flank attack-

But again in our local metagame we have at least 2 people who play Bretonnia, and 3 that play WoC so they are not a bad choice, but if you don't ever see these armies then don't take PWG's-

MarshalFaust
04-04-2011, 03:12
I think a lot of it has to do with the huge monetary investment it requires to put a decent size unit on the table. One unit alone costs almost about 1/4 of what my entire army cost. Incidentally this is also why I never use jezzails. Skaven aren't exactly lacking in options and many of them cost significantly less.

Dante blackfur
04-04-2011, 03:25
Yeah I figured that the cost in $ was a big part, but thats why I was asking, cause I paid about $300 for a 5k army that included 25 PWG. :D so i wanted to see if they where worth it or if I should try selling them.

SlaaneshSlave
04-04-2011, 09:28
They are the worst warhammer investment I ever made.

Love the idea of them. Bought 16 so I could run 2 units of 8.

On the table, they are lucky to cause 2-3 wounds per game. They rarely are in range more than 2 turns per game. And only 25% of shots cause wounds if your target is not combat. Try getting 12 PWG all within 8" of marching cav. Even with old skirmisher's rules, it was next to impossible.

Korraz
04-04-2011, 12:37
I rather liked them, in my time. But they need worthwile targets, so it's highly dependant on what armies you play. They are very nice against monsters and warmachines too, with their high T and usually no other saves but AS.
I saw a group of them once kill a Steam Tank, which was pretty hilarious.

Don't forget they can fire after marching, being skirmishers.

Kevlar
04-04-2011, 12:59
They were a lot better in 4th when you just bought them and attached them to clanrat units.

When they made them skirmishers with crappy leadership and no strength in numbers they turned into crap.

Too easy to panic and they can't stand up to anything. On top of being expensive they are just free vps.

cyberspite
04-04-2011, 13:50
There are ways around the $ problem though, I used the monks from the battalion, and 1 box of ghouls gives you all the hands you need. Green stuff some globes and you're good to go, it is a bit fiddly but there was no way I was paying for the actual models.

The main problem with them is like people have already said, they are only really useful against expensive high armour / high toughness stuff, and you would have to take a fair few to do any real damage. So not really competitive but if you just like the idea of chucking poison gas everywhere then why not?

And they don't auto kill themselves on a hit roll of 1, they actually have a 1/3 chance of karking it because of their gas masks and whatnot.

BlackPawl
04-04-2011, 18:01
I used them now and then against empire because thes are one of our few unites which can hurt a steam tank. They don't have to kill the tank, only a few wounds are enough.
But I only use small units (5 or 6) so they are no real danger to my enemy and will not get much attention.

Bazzal
04-04-2011, 18:48
i would love to use them but its the price of them bout 5+ each that puts me off

monstallion
04-04-2011, 20:12
I use a unit of five with Champion and they tend to get their points back. Have had them kill a unit of 6 knights of Khorne before which was funny.

Against some armies they suck as they don't have the right targets but most have a monster or cav to send them against. Found that people don't target them as they are low down the target priority list. Can them march them up in to peoples faces and poison away.

With the globes being thrown weapons you always get to stand and shoot which is handy as well.

Dante blackfur
04-04-2011, 20:21
Y ieah guess as a50pts stand and shoot, if you manage at least two cav kills it gets its pts back. :)

Jack of Blades
04-04-2011, 21:27
Never understood why they can miss so easily. How hard can it be to throw an object in the viccinity of something? if you have functioning arms... wait... Skaven partly are a mockery of humanity. Now I understand :)

Kevlar
04-04-2011, 21:48
Never understood why they can miss so easily. How hard can it be to throw an object in the viccinity of something? if you have functioning arms... wait... Skaven partly are a mockery of humanity. Now I understand :)

So true. Stupid that they took the template away from them. How do you "miss" with poison gas?

russellmoo
05-04-2011, 01:04
I agree, they should get their templates back, or make them so that the only roll is to wound- the fact that they need to hit their target doesn't match with the description- if it is hard to wound/kill a target with the gas then this should be represented by the to wound roll not the to hit roll-

Rogzor87
05-04-2011, 01:05
Hits on a 4+ thought right? its a thrown weapon. so its a 50/50 chance to hit most the time.

Tarian
05-04-2011, 01:08
I used to use them as a 2 rat deployment, now they sit on weapon team bases as pseudo mortars.

Skyros
05-04-2011, 01:14
You can fire into combat.
Auto wounds on a 4+
No AS

Bye bye, steamtank.

Tarian
05-04-2011, 01:15
Except you need to hit it (twice) and still roll a 4+ on it. Would prefer to Crack's Call it if you're worried about it.

Spinocus
05-04-2011, 16:03
PWGs have become way too specialized unit to be considered for an all-comers list. True, they are absolutely deadly to Stanks and anything else with a ridiculous armor save and/or Toughness value. Their ability to completely bypass armor and the To Wound chart gives PWGs potentially staggering cost-effectiveness versus much more valuable units. The idea that a 50 pt unit can shut down a 300 pt point denial monstrosity like a Stank with just a few wounds makes for a highly persuasive argument.... an argument that is entirely dependent on whether you can keep the little buggers from being blasted into oblivion or panicking off the table before the moment of truth arrives.

The main problem with PWGs is they only pay dividends when they are set to take on valuable units, their basic abilities are wasted when directed against cheap, expendable troops. Consistently needing 5+ to hit (+1 for Long Range, 6+ w/LR & S&S) makes PWGs an awfully hard sell when Steadfast 2 pt Slaves and 5 pt Clanrats can deal with such troops more effectively.

Personally I think the biggest glaring weakness of PWGs is the range of their globes. True, Ld 5 is an awful liability but being Skaven that cannot be helped. I find it curious that the range of Lizardmen's poisoned Javelins gained 4" in 8th ed and PWGs with their 8" range got squat. Let's face it, Skink Skirmirshers w/Jav upgrades are a lot more useful than PWGs in the average list, especially now that Javelins are Quick to Fire and sport a 12" range. Marching & shooting has conferred enormous benefits to skirmishers in 8th ed but the loss of 7th ed's Thrown Weapons rules makes the PWG's paltry 8" range a real liability.

Conversions or Ebay are your best bets for getting inexpensive PWGs.

Kevlar
05-04-2011, 21:42
True, Ld 5 is an awful liability but being Skaven that cannot be helped. I find it curious that the range of Lizardmen's poisoned Javelins gained 4" in 8th ed and PWGs with their 8" range got squat. Let's face it, Skink Skirmirshers w/Jav upgrades are a lot more useful than PWGs in the average list, especially now that Javelins are Quick to Fire and sport a 12" range. Marching & shooting has conferred enormous benefits to skirmishers in 8th ed but the loss of 7th ed's Thrown Weapons rules makes the PWG's paltry 8" range a real liability.


Gutter runners w/sling are just as deadly to high toughness things, and won't panic from seeing their own shadow. Granted gutter runners suck against armor, but overall are much better buy than PWG and can do a lot of the same things.

We have a lot of other ways of busting armor.

Dante blackfur
05-04-2011, 23:49
yeah but if you really want to trick out Gutter RUnners, it costs almost double the ppts of a PWG and they cant take PWM.

Kevlar
06-04-2011, 00:54
yeah but if you really want to trick out Gutter RUnners, it costs almost double the ppts of a PWG and they cant take PWM.

The mortar is easily (and much better off) stuck on a block of clanrats. It gets the SIN bonus and the unit will be around a lot longer for the 4+ ward save.

Gutter runners cost less than double, I think aroiund 17 points with poison and slings, but they shoot twice at 18" on BS4! Plus they can march 12 and still shoot 18!

Tarian
06-04-2011, 02:07
The mortar is easily (and much better off) stuck on a block of clanrats. It gets the SIN bonus and the unit will be around a lot longer for the 4+ ward save.

Gutter runners cost less than double, I think aroiund 17 points with poison and slings, but they shoot twice at 18" on BS4! Plus they can march 12 and still shoot 18!

More importantly, they're ninja rats. Ninja. Rats.

Agoz
06-04-2011, 03:11
More importantly, they're ninja rats. Ninja. Rats.

And PWG are rats wearing heavy robes, gas masks, and throwing gas grenades, don't get much more evocative than that. ;)
Edit: Oh, thought I'd mention, unengaged globadiers can fire into their own close combat every turn so.. yeah, maybe you can do something with that?

Tarian
06-04-2011, 18:17
Hrm, maybe field them in skirmish formation, 1 model wide, so when they rank up in CC, all his buddies behind him can lob grenades.

Agoz
06-04-2011, 18:23
Well if you know for sure they are getting into close combat and they can't shoot anyway, why not? and if they are one wide, chances are every globadier will have line of sight to the enemy so they won't suffer a -1 penalty to hit.

vorthain
06-04-2011, 18:32
I converted mine from Stormvermin for much less than the pricey GW ones. I have a regular WoC opponent as well, so they are good against them. A marked warrior costs twice as much as a globadier, much less their knights. Plus, I think that gasmask wearing, poison orb tossing rats are the coolest thing in the book, even compared to ninja ones (sorry, Tarian).

Agoz: Does that tactic work? I've considered reforming them into 1-wide, 5 deep in melee, but wouldn't the second rank only get to toss a globe?

Tarian
06-04-2011, 18:33
I converted mine from Stormvermin for much less than the pricey GW ones. I have a regular WoC opponent as well, so they are good against them. Plus, I think that gasmask wearing, poison orb tossing rats are the coolest thing in the book, even compared to ninja ones (sorry, Tarian).

Agoz: Does that tactic work? I've considered reforming them into 1-wide, 5 deep in melee, but wouldn't the second rank only get to toss a globe?

Eh, I play Krieg in 40k, Gasmasks are cool. :cool:

Agoz
06-04-2011, 18:37
I converted mine from Stormvermin for much less than the pricey GW ones. I have a regular WoC opponent as well, so they are good against them. A marked warrior costs twice as much as a globadier, much less their knights. Plus, I think that gasmask wearing, poison orb tossing rats are the coolest thing in the book, even compared to ninja ones (sorry, Tarian).

Agoz: Does that tactic work? I've considered reforming them into 1-wide, 5 deep in melee, but wouldn't the second rank only get to toss a globe?

The armybook says any globadier not in base to base with the enemy may shoot into their own combat during the shooting phase, unless this was faq'd(I don't think it was) armybook trumps BRB, so yes, anyone not in the front rank can shoot.

vorthain
06-04-2011, 18:41
It is not FAQ'd as far as I can tell either, but it seems somewhat underhanded (perhaps purposefully so). I wonder what my opponent will think when a column of globadiers comes at his knights' flank...

Agoz
06-04-2011, 18:42
one wide for small units, maybe two wide for larger glob units (to make sure they stay in that 8" range) :) could work, might be worth a try anyway, I'd try it, if I could afford the models :(

Rogzor87
06-04-2011, 18:46
As I mentioned before. They hit on a 4+ right? since its a thrown weapon it doesn't take negatives for the moving/longrange? only for the stand and shoot?

enygma7
06-04-2011, 18:51
As mentioned, the main turn-off is the cost. You don't have to loose all appreciation for the value of money in order to buy a unit, but it helps! Micro-arts studio does a range of rat gas mask heads as part of their conversion parts range. Combining them with plague monk or storm vermin plastic bodies makes a good base for a conversion (I'd also add guard flamer fuel tanks to the backs and use some of the nightrunner arms).

PWG are also a bit too specialist to be an appealing choice, so combine that with the cost and you'll realise why you never see them. The main reason to field a unit is because you want to include something a bit fun and characterful after getting all your "meat and gravy" choices. Lets face it, one of the main reasons to play skaven is to use the toys!

Gutter runners with poison have a similar role of killing high T stuff but this falls apart against things with an armour save. PWG step in here, being especially good at dealing with large monsters with an armour save which are getting increasingly common and widely available.

PWG work well given a champion with a death globe, giving you a template. If you are using a warlock with doom rocket its not a bad idea to put him in with the PWG so he can run down the flank with them. Make sure you have a LD bubble to rally them if they run away though.

EDIT: Thrown weapons do get penalties for long range in 8th but not for moving. Get them into short range to avoid the penalty.

vorthain
06-04-2011, 18:52
@Rozgor: That's how I play it, given Quick to Fire. I didn't think thrown weapons had a long range either, as opposed to what Spinocus suggested earlier.

@enygma: I agree completely. As far as converting, the WLC kit also comes with gas masks, though I converted my own WLC as well and couldn't benefit from them. Greenstuffing over stormvermin heads gives OK results, then add tubes and packs to flavor. Also, I actually do that exact same thing with a doomrocket engineer. Last time though my globadiers killed one warrior, the Death Globe scattered 8", and the Doomrocket found a place near his chariot, wasting the explosion radius. But it works sometimes...

Dante blackfur
06-04-2011, 22:11
one wide for small units, maybe two wide for larger glob units (to make sure they stay in that 8" range) :) could work, might be worth a try anyway, I'd try it, if I could afford the models :(

S keyo me get this straight, I have a unit of 10 PWG, I deploy then 2 wide 5 deep, I get into cc, your saying I can have two attack in cc and the other 8 can use they're globs that auto hit on 4 and get no AS?

Korraz
06-04-2011, 22:19
As I mentioned before. They hit on a 4+ right? since its a thrown weapon it doesn't take negatives for the moving/longrange? only for the stand and shoot?

Throwing Weapons suffer from penalties now. I'm not 100% sure about moving, but long range for sure.

Agoz
06-04-2011, 22:58
S keyo me get this straight, I have a unit of 10 PWG, I deploy then 2 wide 5 deep, I get into cc, your saying I can have two attack in cc and the other 8 can use they're globs that auto hit on 4 and get no AS?

not quite, 4 will attack in close combat (front 2 and second rank) and then anything not in base to base contact with the enemy will be able to shoot in the shooting phase (8 models in your case), rolling to hit as normal, if they are in short range they will hit on 4's, outside of 4" you'll hit on 5's(not a huge problem when your only 5 deep and skaven bases are 20mm), then you have to randomize each hit to see if it hits the enemy or the globadiers, after all that, you may finally roll to wound. So in other words, its about half as effective as regular globadier shooting, but what else are you gonna do? you're in close combat. Optimally it would be best to keep them out of close combat for as long as possible, the two wide thing is just in case you can't avoid getting charged.

vorthain
07-04-2011, 03:45
Would the second rank fight normally in melee, given the Skaven book says specifically base-to-base only? I realize this is an artifact of 7th edition but still.

Spinocus
07-04-2011, 04:15
Technically the second rank should be allowed to contribute their Supporting Attacks and shoot into combat because... well, as far as I can tell there's nothing in the BRB or Skaven book that says they can't! The Skaven book only prohibits PWGs in btb contact with the enemy from throwing their globes, it makes no mention of the PWGs in the second rank and their Supporting Attacks. The Skaven FAQ doesn't say anything either.

PWGs throwing into their own combat isn't as terrible as it sounds, keep in mind the globes only affect the PWGs on 5+, not 4+. Given that most PWG units go 'poof' in melee it's nice to know they have the potential to inflict much more damage on the turn they charge with their globes instead of their hand weapons.

The oddest twist to shooting into combat is lack of LOS to the enemy models incurs an additional -1 to Hit. Now with True LOS in 8th ed it's utterly ridiculous to think that an extra rank or two of PWGs cannot see the enemy unit engaged to its front (ok, maybe if your opponent is a stickler for such things). Beyond that the implication here seems to be that any PWG not engaged in combat can still toss his globes even if the enemy charged the unit in its flank or rear? Crazy stuff.

Bob the Butcher
08-04-2011, 10:27
Globadiers can march 10"s and throw globes 8"s which is an effective range of 18"s.

By upgrading one to a Champion with a Death Globe and a BS of 4 makes the unit pretty good vs. Knights, WoC & Bretts.

Dante blackfur
08-04-2011, 17:33
It also makes them a useful unit against the new Sphinx model coming out for TK, plus as stated before they can essentially get 18" range and a S&S if necessary. So yeah except for the up front $$ cost I think they might be worth looking at in the future.

Col. Voltarius
09-04-2011, 12:26
PWG are great fluffwise and I personally use 2 units of 10 backed up by a mortar. They work pretty nice inbetween tarpit units and really kill enemy elites...

sulla
10-04-2011, 22:29
Coolest concept in the Skaven book IMO, and it's not like the rest of the army isn't cheap enough that you could afford a couple of units of globadiers in there without sacrificing too much competitiveness.

w3rm
11-04-2011, 01:51
Has no one really said the only reason why I take them, The Death Globe!

This thing devastates hordes and is fairly cheap for the damage it can cause. Pitch it in the middle of a horde and you probably wont miss, even if you do, eh its 80 points.

Haravikk
11-04-2011, 19:46
You can make them more cheaply with a bit of Skaven cunning, as the official GW models are far too expensive and not that great (love the overall style, but they're not all that good).

Gameplay wise I don't think they're all that bad if you use them to bombard combats involving a sacrificial slaves unit, as the extra wounds will help the slaves to whittle down the enemy, and for a general purpose list they can be a great way to counteract enemy armour when it shows up.