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devolutionary
29-03-2006, 05:44
This is not a poll. This is not "help me decide what to take" (well it is, but indirectly). This is a question on Dragons. I did a look through the Tactics forum and there was nothing except for specifics (Tzeentch Lord of Chaos Dragon, for example). So here's the big question:

Do you find Dragons (Zombie, Chaos, whatever) to be an efficient use of points? What roles do Dragons fill in an army list when they're fielded? What do you feel should be the minimum points cost at which a Dragon is of any use?

I ask these because I like monsters, it's a small flaw of mine. I used to field a Bret General on Hippogriff back in 4th Ed, and would love to look at either a Zombie dragon for my Undead or a Chaos dragon for my Mortal horde. This leaves me in a quandry though, because I have never seen any commentary on the use of the dragon beyond the Tzeentch Lord and occassional High Panzee sorry Elf Lord. This is not proper, and should be corrected, because quite frankly, big monsters are high fantasy in a nutshell.

ashc
29-03-2006, 07:36
i think the 'big monsters' are pretty damn fun, and it all depends on how you use them; im sure you know in this edition having a monster-riding lord charge ranked infantry head on is tantamount to suicide, but as flank-breakers, terror-spreaders, and to take on small units and war machines they work quite well, although they *are* a large investment. Other ways of using them include using them to get the most out of special abilities, such as using a necrarch vamp on a zombie dragon with death magic and spell range increasing, flying into the middle of an army and casting drain life.

Ash

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-03-2006, 07:37
It's different for different dragons.

The Zombie dragon I wouldn't use in less than 3k(possibly 4k) unless it's a sylvania army as it really limites what you can do with the rest of the hero slots and magic, and makes your lord very vulnerable.

The rest of the dragons are perfectly fine to use in 2k and up. In fact, my dark elves are almost always supported by a dragon.

It's best to think of is as a flying unit of cavalry really. It can run over many units, if it gets in those flank charges, and smaller units even from the front.

Lots of fun to use, and not nearly as vulnerable to the shooting thats commonly recommended to fight them. However, be very careful about close combat! Getting flanked and ranked by infantry is a very real danger if you get bogged down in combat. So be sure you know that you won't get into trouble by a charge. Break the unit or not, you should be sure you won't get counter charged by anything you can't handle.

Scythe
29-03-2006, 08:40
They are all ok. Dragons are nice enough, and don't immdeately drop down when faced with the average amount of missle fire and war machines in armies these days, unlike most T5 monsters. Tough the obvious combination is the Tzeentch Chaos Lord, Elven dragons are effective nontheless, and can be game winners if they get in flanking positions. Still, I wouldn't take one in games less as 3000 pts tough. Only exception would be a zombie dragon. Since you have to mount your Vampire Lord on one (which is your general, since Lords are 0-1), it not only makes the rest of your army way slower, but also makes your vitally important general the main target of anything that can throw a rock from a distance. Not a good idea.

Still, I wish Dragons regained some of their former powers, even if their pts went up. The current dragons are acctually weaker as the weakest dragon in 4th/5th edition.

Insane Alex
29-03-2006, 08:49
I'm not a huge Fantasy player, but in all matters, large monsters with scales and a bad temperament get two thumbs up!

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-03-2006, 08:51
I don't think that would be a good idea. I think the dragons are pretty much spot on, at least the elf ones.

They are devestating if you get off that flank charge. However, they don't quite cut it front charging infantry units. However, they don't need much until they can, and some of the hard ones, such as a tooled chaos dragon is downright scary, even for infantry who have the advantage.

Currently there is a fine balance between being powerful if used correctly, but a bit fragile if not. Would be a shame to upset that.

Shinguuji
29-03-2006, 10:51
Well, I collected fantasy mainly because of the WE forest dragon(too bad they're not producing it anymore...), except mine is painted black, and is considered a chaos one...

yes, agreed, what is fantasy without dragons?
i feel that the rider must be tough enough to ride on it in order for it to be sucessful, chaos lords are great, but can't say so about the elf ones though....

devolutionary
29-03-2006, 10:55
The nifty thing is that a zombie dragon + winged nightmare = Nurgle Chaos Dragon. The possibilities are tempting me to take one in my 2250 chaos force for occassional use. I'm intrigued also by the range of Dragons. There used to be what? 5 basic Dragons of various age (I'm thinking back to 3rd and 4th here) and then Chaos, Wood, and Zombie, if I memory serves. Are these still in existence, or does each Dragon riding race have it's own signature dragon?

Dead_Dog
29-03-2006, 13:35
When I run one with my DE I usually have great results. The high mobility, terror, and general cc badassness can make it a game winner. The dragon also gives you a huge mental edge over your opponent as they have fits worrying about it.
However... it IS a big investment in pts and sometimes a warmachine is going to get lucky and knock it out with one shot no matter what you do. So if you take a dragon to a tourney be prepared for the possibiltity of spotting the other guy 320pts :cries:
It doesn't happen often but when it does it's important you not throw a fit:)

sigur
29-03-2006, 20:40
I wrote some lists including a dragon after buying good old Rakarth and his pet (5th edition dragons are just so superior to the 6th edition ones), but in 2000pts games, I can hardly imagine that they are worth the points. Of course, they do massive damage, but are also very expensive. If you include a dragon in your army at a game size of 2000pts, you have to make the dragon the center of the army; everything has to support the dragon to get into the perfect position and that's the way of fighting I don't like much: Putting all your eggs in one basket.

GrandReaper
30-03-2006, 02:54
I'm one of the few (apparently) that has issues with Dragons. My problem is that I find some armies are nearly unaffected and others are completely buggered when facing one. Take Ogre Kingdoms, for example. To date no one has come up with a method to deal with dragons. Mount a High Elf with the Bolt-thrower bow on it and Ogre players are just about in tears. Lizardmen with low magic also suffer as their shooting is fairly short ranged and struggles with armour saves. Beastmen are a third list that has little defence (sure, the herds are mobile, but the leadership problems are immense and that one less rank bonus makes a difference).

On the other hand, many empire, dwarf or elf lists are well equipped to deal with a dragon, with either artillery, mass ranged fire, magic or a combination of the three. Also, those armies immune to psychology suffer less.

I don't suppose these necissarily form an imballance, but I don't like going into games knowing a single model could well spell doom to my entire gameplan and I have little to nothing I can do about it.

Frankly
30-03-2006, 04:26
Ogre players are just about in tears. Lizardmen with low magic also suffer as their shooting is fairly short ranged and struggles with armour saves. Beastmen are a third list that has little defence (sure, the herds are mobile, but the leadership problems are immense and that one less rank bonus makes a difference).


Hmmmm, I wonder if its more like the dragon is better against some armies than other.

Personally my L.M. armylist loves hunting dragons. They have cold-blooded to deal with Terror, swarms, heavy hitting kroxies once your trapped the dragon, +1 to hit with B.pipes, also Southlands(not to mention a Slann) can out-magic anyone, I can get 18 P.dice in a magic phase 1 or 2 turns a game if i want. I don't think L.M. have to much trouble with Dragons.


BoC low L.d. is a by-product of the army, you know your taking a low L.d. armylist when you buy into them. On the other hand minotaurs with MoK should be good against dragons, same with a massed amount of chariots, you also have gaints, spawns and other things to play around with.

I've never played orges so I can't comment on them.

Scythe
30-03-2006, 07:19
I'm one of the few (apparently) that has issues with Dragons. My problem is that I find some armies are nearly unaffected and others are completely buggered when facing one. Take Ogre Kingdoms, for example. To date no one has come up with a method to deal with dragons. Mount a High Elf with the Bolt-thrower bow on it and Ogre players are just about in tears. Lizardmen with low magic also suffer as their shooting is fairly short ranged and struggles with armour saves. Beastmen are a third list that has little defence (sure, the herds are mobile, but the leadership problems are immense and that one less rank bonus makes a difference).

On the other hand, many empire, dwarf or elf lists are well equipped to deal with a dragon, with either artillery, mass ranged fire, magic or a combination of the three. Also, those armies immune to psychology suffer less.

I don't suppose these necissarily form an imballance, but I don't like going into games knowing a single model could well spell doom to my entire gameplan and I have little to nothing I can do about it.

Yeah, but that's the case with a lot of specialised units, is it? More effective against some opponents, abysmal against others...

Dead_Dog
30-03-2006, 15:09
Yeah, but that's the case with a lot of specialised units, is it? More effective against some opponents, abysmal against others...

I think the point GrandReaper is making (sorry in advance if I'm totally off base:) ) is more that the dragon is conditional in such a way that it can simply ruin games for some armies and while this is more acceptable in a tournament setting it's basically being a dick in casual(er) games.
I've seen games where one guy could basically spot the other his entire army barring a dragon and still pull off a draw/MV and that's just not cool.
So the dragon does require a little thinking pre-game if you want to keep things fun.

Flypaper
31-03-2006, 03:33
That's true of all sorts of situations, though. Take an all-infantry-blocks list and watch a dryad-heavy WE player cry. :cool:

...In other words, while it's true that there's lists that can't deal with a dragon, it's not usually your "balanced" armies*. I say dragons are completely fair game within what even the most "casual" gamer should expect - more so, in fact, as playing big ugly monsters attracts a lot of new players. :p

* While Ogre Kingdoms are an exception, the problems with OK go much deeper than just vulnerability to monsters.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-03-2006, 04:29
On the other hand, many empire, dwarf or elf lists are well equipped to deal with a dragon, with either artillery, mass ranged fire, magic or a combination of the three.


This is, in my opinion a misconception. People keep going on about shooting as a way to deal with Dragons, and it's just not the way to do it. Yeah, a cannon battery is going to restrict my movement a little, but unless there are no terrain on the table, your going to have to be very lucky to kill me.

It takes on average something like 3 or 4 cannonballs to kill a dragon. I lost my dragon to shooting only twice. Both times on the same table to some incredibly lucky RBTs (hitting, wounding and scoring 3 wounds with 3 single shots in the first turn!) on a table with no terrain.

On the other hand, I lost my dragon plenty of times to close combat. In my mind thats the best way to defeat a dragon. Bug it down in CC and then ranks and flanks. Thats how I defeated a dragon the last time I played against it. As soon as he is taking breaktests he is in trouble.

I'm of the opinion, that if you know what your doing, any army(although maybe not every army build) can defeat a dragon, although I do admit it's very difficult for some. Ogre Kingdoms are possibly the army worst off, but they can still do it. I think it helps if you worry less about actually killing it, and more about breaking and running it down.

I admit, if you never fought a dragon, or any big monster before, it's hard to deal with. But once you have faced it a few times, or even better, played with it, you really start to see the limitations and what you can do to counter it. As with many things, it's a question of experience. But since Dragons are rare these days, many haven't tried playing against them.

Simon23
31-03-2006, 14:30
For the same points cost as a dragon I can have two units of Wild Riders.
Its not a difficult choice for me having seen dragons go down in combat time and again.

If I was going to use a Dragon i would commit some of my force before engaging with it, If you go in too early and not enough of the enemy is engaged, Dragons get swamped and crushed.

Your Mum Rang
31-03-2006, 15:04
Again, as with most things. I think its how you use it. I mean if you think it can take on ranked units on its own you're taking big chances. But if you charge a flank or combine charges they can be nasty.

Essentially its down to a player's skill.

Scythe
31-03-2006, 15:27
That's true of all sorts of situations, though. Take an all-infantry-blocks list and watch a dryad-heavy WE player cry. :cool:

...In other words, while it's true that there's lists that can't deal with a dragon, it's not usually your "balanced" armies*. I say dragons are completely fair game within what even the most "casual" gamer should expect - more so, in fact, as playing big ugly monsters attracts a lot of new players. :p

* While Ogre Kingdoms are an exception, the problems with OK go much deeper than just vulnerability to monsters.

My thoughts exactly. I even think dragons are not really worth it in 2000 pts battles. In 3000 pts or more, you can acctually take some risks with your dragon without risking 1/3rd of your army. They just cost a lot of points (and character slots).

highmarshalllissus
31-03-2006, 21:09
i play high elves and cant really imagine having a dragon in a full frontal attack sorta situation, its like people say if it goes down then its a waste but if it jumps at you from behind that lovely set of trees then its gonna be peachy! i went through a phase where i tryed to play my high elves as empire but found that my spearmen were gettin cut down a little to easily so maybee using a dragon as a sort of spearhead to divert fire and attention but you cant really do that and then expect it to survive the whole battle to fill out its full potential!

GrandReaper
01-04-2006, 05:29
The players with dragons must play differently around here than anywhere else. Basically, if there is a good target without static CR and a safe overrun it might charge, otherwise its a case of fly and flame a ranked unit (often killing 1/2 the unit or more) and let the terror and march blocking screw up the battle line. A couple turns of this and they're aren't any ranked units (and thus, static CR) left in the opponents army. Fubar'd.

The main defence of the shooty armies IS that they restrict movement. That is the most leathel defence against a dragon as it can't earn its points.

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-04-2006, 07:24
Yes, I do know that movement restriction is a good part of the defence. But generally, I find that it at most buys you a round where the dragon doesn't charge, as the only really scary thing is multiple cannons, or a big battery of bolt throwers. Risking a single cannon shot can be an acceptable risk.

As for terror and breath weapons. Sounds like you have some insanely lucky dragons. Killing half a unit of rank and file with breath weapons? Your going to be lucky to even cover half the unit, let alone roll to kill it. I found the breath weapon to be a nice gimmick, but not really terribly effective at killing large numbers of enemy troops. Having to cover troops, rolling for partial hits, rolling to wound, and the saves really do mean you don't get all that many kills.

Same with terror, nice gimmick, but a large part of the armies are either immune, or have high leadership so isn't very much effected. Combined with just a single terror test per game, and I don't think it amounts to much. I have had my dragons terror actually mean something less than a handfull of times.

Where I do find the dragon to be truly lethal is when you combine it with the rest of the army, creating a situation where the enemy is going to be assaulted from multiple directions and there really isn't much he can do to cover it all.

Akuma
01-04-2006, 08:34
My oppinion is that from both fluff and tactic reason Dragons should be allowed form 3000 pts and upward ( same with stanks and hellcannons ) And i do right it as Chaos and empire player :D.

I dont like one trick pony armys and every army with dragon is such army - if i manage to cannon it down in 1 or second turn my opponents usualy say - good win and walk away :/ not fun to play at all

Scythe
01-04-2006, 09:26
Exactly. It is hardly fun to win a battle like that. Even worse is the HE army with 2 dragons in 2000 pts.

Latro
01-04-2006, 09:53
Yeah, most of the time it turns out to be one of two options:

- defending army has no method of handling a dragon ... wow, what an interesting battle

- defending army takes out dragon, destroys small left-overs of enemy with ease ... wow, what a great battle

Exceptions happen, but I can't remember ever having played a battle with or against a dragon that was really interesting. Limit them to large battles (together with some other power-models), that's where they'll do just fine.

:cool:

scatterlaser
01-04-2006, 10:04
I've played quite a few games against dragons and a few using one. I've never really felt there was nothing I could do about them, and they've nearly all been interesting games. You do need to know how to deal with dragons and how to use them effectively, but I don't have any problems playing with or against them in 2000pts.

(I do think Chaos Dragons with the Golden Eye are a bit over the top, but unless your only means of killing a big monster is with shooting, they can still be dealt with.)

Goq Gar
01-04-2006, 11:24
Well, cant say ive ever fought with a dragon on my side, all we lizzies have is the jungle equivelant: A carnosaur. Same stats as a chaos dragon, but deals d3 wounds to large tagrets XD

Im not going to deny it dies pretty quickly when the shooting picks up, any dragon does, but a dragon is just all the more deadly than other monsters of war... and with its superior movement it's just itching to stick its spiky nob in that chunky monkey unit's side...

Theyre not perfect, and are a BIG NO NO in smaller games (1000pts or less)

Gorbad Ironclaw
01-04-2006, 11:25
My oppinion is that from both fluff and tactic reason Dragons should be allowed form 3000 pts and upward ( same with stanks and hellcannons ) And i do right it as Chaos and empire player :D.

I dont like one trick pony armys and every army with dragon is such army - if i manage to cannon it down in 1 or second turn my opponents usualy say - good win and walk away :/ not fun to play at all


I don't think dragon armies are more one trick ponies than anything else that have a big hammer unit. My dragon ticks in at around 570 points. Compare that to the price of a big cavalry unit and a lord and it's not all that different.

Besides, if he lets it get shot in the first turn, he deserves it! :p


Actually, one of the most interesting games with my dark elves have been where I lost my dragon in turn 2 to a bret army, at a tournament. Trying to salvage as much as I could with my infantry was a huge challenge and a lot of fun. And whats more, it almost worked! Even if I did get wiped out in the end. Got my sportsmanship vote for the tournament, as that was just a cracking game.

Goq Gar
01-04-2006, 11:29
Dragons are designed to be more "leadership inspiring units" anyway. Use tim to support your units while carrying your general, keeping him behind them, and when the enemy crashes in, counter charge his flank with 7 tons of spiky nobbed, sharp toothed, mass. Also, you could keep him hidden till near the end of a game, then take him out for some quick unit-finishing off

Latro
01-04-2006, 11:30
Actually, one of the most interesting games with my dark elves have been where I lost my dragon in turn 2 to a bret army, at a tournament. Trying to salvage as much as I could with my infantry was a huge challenge and a lot of fun. And whats more, it almost worked! Even if I did get wiped out in the end. Got my sportsmanship vote for the tournament, as that was just a cracking game.

So .... one of the best games you ever had was the one where you didn't have a dragon anymore?

:D

Goq Gar
01-04-2006, 11:38
Best game I ever played:

Me (lizardmen)
Dark elves
Chaos
High elves

I bagged 2 dragons that game! XD Carny ate well that day... hehehe, high elf lords taste like mcnuggets

GrandReaper
01-04-2006, 14:19
I don't know what is so surprising about killing half a unit with a breath weapon. I often do that using my friends high elf lord on dragon. At the right distance (around 3.5") from a rear corner, the template will cover about 1/4 of the models and partially cover another 1/2. Then, against T3 Sv5+ you'll expect 2/3 hits to wound and only 1/6 save with a S4 breath weapon. It's devestating.

As for terror. Yes, it's not a sure thing. However, when you've already pulled a couple ranks off of a main unit any potential terror to support units (skinks, free companies, etc) are a boon. Then everything within 8" is still march blocked. I highly encourage everyone with a dragon to go into their next game with the intention of not charging once and see how well you do (unless its OK, in which case do whatever you want). You'll also see that the dragon and lord (and their VPs) are nearly unclaimable by many armies.

Finally, another point in the firepower trump argument is that the rider is still succeptible to small arms fire, and exposing him, risking his victory points and the possibility of a failed leadership check and poor monster reaction role is often not worth it.

Scythe
02-04-2006, 09:38
True, but most races can buy some decent armour or a good ward against shooting for their rider, so altough it's a point, I hardly found this to be a problem gamewise. Usually the people who are able to kill the rider with ranged fire have enough firepower to take down the dragon as well.

Leonous2006
02-04-2006, 10:27
Personally i love em!!!, as was first said they are a huge part of the fantasy game and without them gaming life would definately be a bit boring!! Even though i've been playing a few years, everytime i see one and no matter what army im playing with, dragons still give you something to crap your pants about, and being quite rare nowadays its is a nice site to see one once in a while!!

highmarshalllissus
02-04-2006, 17:52
high elf lords taste like mcnuggets

hahahahahaha

highmarshalllissus
02-04-2006, 17:53
Personally i love em!!!, as was first said they are a huge part of the fantasy game and without them gaming life would definately be a bit boring!!

i mean come on guys! who doesnt enjoy moddelling n painting a dragon or some kinda beast? be honest!

Simon23
02-04-2006, 18:15
Waywatchers love dragon mounted Lords ;)

Hunt77
06-04-2006, 00:23
1st time trying to post so here we go.

I love dragons! So much so when GW released the War of the Beard Army list for High Elves I went and created an entire 3000 point army around a core of four dragons backed by MSU of Silver Helms, but used the Dragon Princes models.

Even got to use this army in a tournament once where any GW list was allowed. Needless to say I won the tourney. But I can attest to dragons becoming pincushions. The only game I lost I faced a Tomb King Army led by the Queen special character so all of the arrows were poisoned. Two dragons went down by archer units and another got hit squarely on the head by a catapult. My opponent then rolled a six for wounds.

Scythe
06-04-2006, 08:24
Welcome to warseer Hunt!

A tournament allowing a war of the beard army list? :eek:

highmarshalllissus
06-04-2006, 14:27
four dragons?!

HalfEvil333
06-04-2006, 14:38
Love the War of the Beard list. Thankfully it's not official, or I'd truely despise it.

I personally love dragons. The rules and the idea of massive, fire-breathing forces of nature with only the strongest astriding them. But I hate the current models. Curse you, flying static worm snake thing!! *shakes fist at ceiling*

biggreengribbly
06-04-2006, 17:02
Ooooh yeah. Death to the stupid dragon models. The only vaguely dynamic dragon is galrauch (sp?) and that is just 84 kinds of explosive SUCK i don't wanna think about!

Bring us cool dragon models. It is a new law I have just created. For every day GW doesn't bring us a sweet, dynamic awesome, dragon model, I'm going to fling a flaming barbed wire wrapped baby at their head office. Let's see how long the 'design process' takes then!

neXus6
06-04-2006, 17:12
I love dragons. I've never played an army that can use them though. Wyverns and Carnosaurs as as beefy as my mounts get.

I agree that we need cool dragon models. I spent a while the other day looking at some of the McFarlane Dragons and thinking how most of them (and the rest with a little tweaking) look really good.

I've also got fond memories of the background and rules of dragons of various types and ages from 4th edition. :D :cool:

highmarshalllissus
06-04-2006, 21:10
i like the high elf dragon! u can also buy like 5 differant dragons from the gw website but in all honesty only 1 of them is actually cool, the others kinda just, u know, suck.

Leonous2006
07-04-2006, 07:45
Come on the woodie one is pretty good to, but as much as i love the idea biggreengribbly is right the others really do look terrible ESPECIALLY the dark elf one, im sure more people would use them if they improved the models, at the moment they really dont give me that much of an urge to go out and buy one!

HalfEvil333
07-04-2006, 07:58
Yeah, I agree. The Woodie's dragon is really nice. I don't really have a problem with the style, the serpentine look, it's just the models are really static. A little variation or mobility would be nice. I personally like the Galrauch model, but only as Galrauch. It's really hard to pull off mounting a lord on him, the standard sitting style just doesn't work.

Getting back on topic on dragons in game, I've seen dragons destroy armies. My favorite part is the fact it is on of the most viable choices for monsterous mounts. A lot of other mounts just can't take the attention that dragons can.

Hunt77
08-04-2006, 01:06
As far as models are concerned I think the Wood Elf dragon is the best by far. Two of my dragons are based on that model. The other two are Imrik and the Dogs of War Asarnil.

When it comes to playing with dragons I would never have one in an army unless there were plenty of calvary models to back it up. Most people will focus on the dragon so the units of Silver Helms usually make it to battle untouched. And let's face it there are not alot of armies which can take a dragon out in one turn. So by turn two, if I'm lucky, or turn three I have a dragon waiting to make a flank charge and several small units to hit the front.

neXus6
08-04-2006, 01:53
The Wood Elf dragon was the best, then they sculpted sprites and crap on it. :p

I would say that the Galrauch model is a step in the right direction pose and basic shape wise. But when it comes down to the detail the model really doesn't hold up for me. :)
Now the Forgeworld Chaos Dragon. :eek:

Scythe
08-04-2006, 09:13
Well, at least you can still order the WE dragon without sprites...

Or get the forgeworld fire dragon if you have money to spare.

HalfEvil333
08-04-2006, 09:19
Speaking of fire dragons, I wish they would bring back the varients of dragons, fire, ice, that sort of thing. Not as badly balanced as they used to be, but a version of elemental dragons as trial rules or something. Maybe a new DoW unit or something. Hm, that gives me an idea... :D

Scythe
08-04-2006, 10:21
Yup, the different kinds of dragons added a nice tough of character. Rules don't need to be unbalanced at all. Just playing around a bit with different breath weapons could do the trick. Then just give each race with access to dragons some colors to choose from.

highmarshalllissus
08-04-2006, 20:33
can sumbody explain the old rules cuz iv never heard of differant variations with dragons?! its all a bit craaazy!

^DrAgOn^
08-04-2006, 20:41
I occasionly use a dragon in my chaos army and find it to be suprisingly flexible as well as a heck of a lot of fun. :)

(Just to clarify, hes not a tzeench lord but a khorne one with Beserker sword, gaze of the gods and Armour of damnation.)

Scythe
08-04-2006, 20:41
In the old days of 4th/5th edition, there were 3 kinds of dragons: Normal Dragons, Greater Dragons and Emperor Dragons (listed in increasing power). Note that even Normal Dragons were more powerfull as the dragons we have currently in the game (higher WS, I and 2 extra wounds and attacks). An Emperor Dragon was an absolute monster with only scores of 8 and 9 for its stats.

Furthermore, dragons had colors. Most races with access to dragons had access to multiple color dragons. High Elves, for example, had access to Red Dragons (fire breath weapon), White Dragons (ice breath weapon) and Blue Dragons (lightning breath, which I believe worked a bit like a conventional ranged attack), amongst others. Other colors included Black, Green, and probably some others I can't remember.

Mind that this does not include the 2 special kinds of dragon (Chaos and Zombie, which didn't had different levels). It can be noted tough that Chaos also had access to normal dragons back then (confusing, isn't it? :p)

leeoaks
08-04-2006, 23:32
i use my dragon in 1500 points every now and again to keep my opponents guessing!

and i always take him in bigger points games! hes great fun and a bargain at 460pts!

highmarshalllissus
10-04-2006, 18:24
thanks sythe!!!

Scythe
11-04-2006, 07:54
No problem...;)

silentdeath
12-04-2006, 13:19
hi, i have spent a few days tracking all of your opinions, however varied they may be!!

this is intended just to be my summary, from the experiancee i have gained using them

First of all dragon types... your forgetting the cool van horstman chaos dragon, the 2 headed one, i have converted one to use with my dark elves, and it looks fantastic. I do agree though there should be a complete update on the whole dragon scenario.

Using dragons... well i have a dragon based into my standard 2000pt list. i will be using it at several tournaments. It takes great skill and care to use a dragon, and if used correctly it can win you any game. Use the scenery to your benefit, hold back and strike when the time is ready. Get your opponant confused and worried by giving him several targets to aim at. everyone seems to be worried about war machines, so give your opponant options he can only shoot one at a time. Keep your dragon to the flanks out of enemy firing arcs.

One trick i have learned is to ensure that you breath fire on the unit BEFORE you charge it. Place the dragon behind the unit, and reduce the urge to charge a S4 breath attack is devastating.

Use your repeater bolt throwers and shades to get rid of enemy war machines

One last thing to rememeber is not to base your tactics on the dragon alone..

my 2000pt army goes something like this...

lord on dragon
level 2 sorceress
level 2 sorceress
2 x 5 dark riders
war hydra
2 x repeater bolt throwers or 2 chariots, depends
5 x shades
10 x RXB
10 x RXB
20 executioners

FEAR causing chariots at T5 causing fear , and can shoot are by far the best in the game, mmmm 4 cold one knights @T3 or a 4 wound chariot @T5 only one winner there in my opinion

Cheers guys

Anthony

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-04-2006, 13:55
Just remember that those chariots are stupid on Ld 8. I dropped mine caus in the end it was entirely to frustrating to deal with the stupidity. Having lost several games because the chariot just decided to sit there and look I found it much better to just get rid of the damn thing.

Of course, I'm not very fond of the current incarnation of RBTs either. Present to many points in to weak a package that just does to little. Especially in an army like that. It needs to be mobile, and RBTs are inherently static. I think the chariots would go better with the rest of the army, as long as you can deal with the stupidity.



And I must say, I still haven't seen the breath weapon to be all that effective. It's nice enough. But given the choice I'd much rather charge a unit in the flank than waste a turn breathing on them. It's much more of an opportunity weapon for use while your manouvering into a position to charge.

neXus6
12-04-2006, 14:02
The different levels of Dragon were funny as hell. The description went along the lines of "The older a dragon gets the bigger, slower and more powerful it gets."
To show the getting slower with age/size each one had 1 point less initiative than the one before it. Thing is the Normal Dragon was initiative 8, so the Emperor was initiative 6 :p not exactly slow after all.

Blue dragons and their lightening attack was brilliant, you hit one model with it, then rolled a dice on a 4+ it jumped to another model in the unit, it could also jump to any unit within 6 or 8 inches, so as long as you kept rolling 4+ you could hit everything. :p

ROCKY
12-04-2006, 15:10
The different levels of Dragon were funny as hell. The description went along the lines of "The older a dragon gets the bigger, slower and more powerful it gets."
To show the getting slower with age/size each one had 1 point less initiative than the one before it. Thing is the Normal Dragon was initiative 8, so the Emperor was initiative 6 :p not exactly slow after all.

Blue dragons and their lightening attack was brilliant, you hit one model with it, then rolled a dice on a 4+ it jumped to another model in the unit, it could also jump to any unit within 6 or 8 inches, so as long as you kept rolling 4+ you could hit everything. :p
:D Thank god no one here uses that crap!:mad:

Commissar Vaughn
12-04-2006, 16:21
i particularly like the models, i was looking through the mercenaries and monsters catalogue the other day and there were some pretty classic models in there, i rather like arsnils dragon which i currently use for my darkelf lord,
some of the other monster are great as well, and i often wish more of them could be released in 6thedition armies these days, everyone should be able to summon monsters(though perhaps not as much as they used to be able to! being able to take up to 1/4 of your army as big flying nasties with huge teeth is a bit much!)

Scythe
13-04-2006, 10:48
:D Thank god no one here uses that crap!:mad:

Was fun as hell tough. I remember the multiplayer battles we played at that time... A few emperor dragons, a Bloodthirster, a Lord of Change, Vermin Lord, Nuclear Slann Bomb, Stegadon, Vampire Lord battling it out with the most crazy magic item combos.

Oh, there were some troops to hold up these monsters for a single turn as well...:D

ROCKY
13-04-2006, 14:31
Was fun as hell tough. I remember the multiplayer battles we played at that time... A few emperor dragons, a Bloodthirster, a Lord of Change, Vermin Lord, Nuclear Slann Bomb, Stegadon, Vampire Lord battling it out with the most crazy magic item combos.

Oh, there were some troops to hold up these monsters for a single turn as well...:D
:eyebrows: :eek: the Nuclear Slaan bomb? LOL. what they can levitate and land on opponents?:p

Diego
13-04-2006, 16:16
Heart of Woe I'm guessing.

Scythe
14-04-2006, 07:55
Jup. Level 4 slann w. 8 wounds and Heart of Woe = 16" blast radius when killed.

Combine that with the Escape Magic Card (reappear on table with 1 wound after slain), a Jade magic spell which restored wounds (I think) and the Amber Amulet (regenerate 1 wound per turn).

The scary part is that even with those 2 items, the slann still had 3 magic item slots free (and a magic banner slot). So enough room to get the Blade of Cocacilla, Talisman of Ravensdark or wathever you need to slice those dragons to bits.

And for those unfamilliar with 5th edition slanns: they were not the wusses they are currently in combat. High WS, S and 8 attacks on a slann lord.