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View Full Version : Khorne Chosen vs Tzeentch Chosen



Quinn
09-04-2011, 17:58
As I've been debating various WoC builds for Ardboyz, it seems that most people choose to run Tzeentch Chosen over Khorne. I'm an experienced player that tends to go with units that 'look' like they are going to be more effective rather than doing the math, so given the following caveats..which is really a better build?

I'm going to assume 2 Warshrines in the army with the Chosen having a Champion with FotGs and Wailing Banner to maximize results.

A unit of Khorne Chosen with AHW and +1S, +1A, and 4+ WS/Stbn

A unit of Tzeentch Chosen with GW, +1A, +1T and 3+ WS/Stbn (I'm assuming this is the best result) (This seems to be a standard build, but maybe Hal/Sh is more common..not sure).

My gut feeling is that the Khorne unit will actually be the better build, if 7 wide we are looking at 43 St 5 attacks, while the Tzeentch unit will put out 29 St 6 attacks, the disparity is even greater if running Horde width. Of course the Tzeentch unit will take less casualties, but will it balance with the lack of attacks? I personally don't think that the extra Strength is that big a deal, since most armies out there don't have that great an AS to make it that relevant.
Like I stated, I'm not a Mathhammer type of player, so I'm wondering if some of you that are can explain which build is going to perform better on average?

snottlebocket
09-04-2011, 18:33
I'd say Tzeentch. Far more surviveable and if you plan on topping them of with two warshrines and the item for the champion they don't exactly have to worry about buffing their stats. That one extra attack khorne get's is not going to make that big a difference, especially considering those models will die in transit in far greater numbers than their Tzeentchian counterparts. (who will have their stats buffed up the wazoo anyway)

false king
09-04-2011, 18:46
How big are your units? Also the second is standard but with halberds and sheilds over gws because other wise your totally wasting your high i. Also always stick with +s +a or +ward save. Most enemies will just be perswaded not to attack your unit with ranged fire power and you should be slaughtering his unit in cc. When this unit attacks you want your enemies to break so you should be maximising killing potentail. I'm worried that your planning on power up the unit with 2 shrines though thats a 260 point upgrade for only two of the before mentioned results. Stick with one shrine or have the second buff another unit. It sounds like your trying to make a death star unit but these units can still be wasted by spells so make sure you have other high value targets or can dispell those spells of doom.

sulla
09-04-2011, 20:16
You don't have to take the wailing banner to maximise results...

You could just take the mark of tzeench, halberds and the banner of rage for the best of both worlds.

As to whether you should try to deathstar up the unit... I'd say it would depend on whether you have double hellcannons and a lvl4 on a disc with the 3+ ward supported by a few 40-50 strong khjorne great weapon marauder units. All of those together make for quite a "*******" army. If your army is not quite so min-maxed, I say go for it.

Orkses
10-04-2011, 07:10
My mate tends to use Khornate chosen with halberds and that banner that gives you protection from ranged attacks.

Morkash
10-04-2011, 09:17
If you have the models, I'd use a naked Warshrine and 3 Hellcannons. And 18-24 Chosen of Tzeentch with Halberds, Wailing Banner/Banner of Rage.
Assuming that you do not have 3 Hellcannons (which sounds likely) I would still go for the Tzeentch Chosen with Halberds and Banner of Rage, especially if you go for dual Warshrine (sounds like you want to do that)
Khornates with two Handweapons sound nice, but the Banner of Rage fulfills a similar job, while Halberds are great to take on hard stuff. Shields are optional, but usually not needed. It is not a huge difference between 4+/3++ and 3+/3++. ;)
Wailing Banner is only good if you run no or maybe one Warshrine. With two Shrines the chance of getting the Wardsave is extraordinary high, so you can take the Banner of Rage for precious bonus attacks!

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 11:49
And I thought what units looked effective was dependant on the math :p

I'd go Tzeentch every time. What makes the Chosen Shrine combo so powerful is the fact that if they get off the ward save the Tzeentch Chosen are saving 2/3 of all hits regardless of strength and with stubborn are probably not going to break that often. Khorne can be made up for also if you also get the +1A benefit, and since you are running two Shrines this is highly likely.

Quinn
11-04-2011, 17:12
I tried to post results earlier, but Firefox has decided that Warseer is an attack site, a bit of a problem!
Anyway, I actually do own 3 Hellcannons and used them last year but am not going to use them this year. They were not worth the points that they gave up and with the 3rd scenario in play, there is a reasonable chance of losing substantial points to Lightning strikes. I may use them in the semis, assuming I get that far.
I know that everyone seems to favor the Tzeentch Chosen at this point. I did play 2 games this past weekend with the Khorne Chosen/AHW build (2 Warshrines) and they did the job quite well. My opponents are good players (DE and LM) and I don't think they were fluke victories. I'm going to play one more test game against DoC this week and use the Khorne build again.
I just feel that having 5 attacks per figure at S5 against most armies that are out there (typically T3/4 with low AS) is better than the +1 to the WS, I put out over 70 attacks in Horde formation...very intimidating. You get points by breaking the enemy and so far the Khorne Chosen have performed. It may be Apples/Oranges type of thing and I just prefer Khorne! It would be interesting to see how the 2 builds do against each other, maybe I will find out in the Ardboyz.

BaSe
11-04-2011, 19:37
I played a game with 21 khorne chosen with helberds this weekend agaisnt 30 tzeentch hand weapon and shield. We both got the wards as well and my guys won combat :)

I think it all avaerages out when khorne has the helberds. Its all down to dice.

popisdead
14-04-2011, 23:19
Khorne chosen is a horrible idea as you can just buy the Banner of Rage which is about 10 times better for 5 points more.

Djekar
15-04-2011, 05:49
Unless you are putting the Terror Banner on your chosen to try and snipe the Ward on the pre-game roll.

BaSe
15-04-2011, 07:13
Khorne chosen is a horrible idea as you can just buy the Banner of Rage which is about 10 times better for 5 points more.
As said I do it with the terror banner for the ward save. With that in mind how Is a banner of rage 10 times better as the whole point of choosen/ward save is they don't loose combats... So they would never loose frenzy

Hashulaman
15-04-2011, 08:04
I recently used a chosen block with Mark of Tzeentch, terror banner, BSB and Sigvald, I was locked in combat with a Lizardman unit that had Chakax and Kroak. Was not Temple Guard, but might as well have been. Mazamundi(it was a 5k game) was debuffing the Chosen with Lore of Shdow. Despite all that I got Devine Greatness on the pre game roll and that unit went noowhere even with their T being lowered. Compated to Khorne, I will always take Tzeentch.

Quinn
17-04-2011, 07:30
Well, I ended up in first place in my Ardboyz Prelim with the Khorne AHW Chosen. Faced O&G, LM and DoC. The extra attacks, combined with the buffs were devastating. I didn't even get the WS/Stbn in game 2 or 3 (This with 2 Warshrines, FotG and Terror Banner..Lightening killed both Shrines turn 2 in 3rd game..lol) so the +3 WS was irrelevant. I'll stick with Khorne until someone proves..In a Game..that Tzeentch is better.