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Lilike
09-04-2011, 19:31
Firstly, I didn't create this thread to complain about the general state of the upcoming TK release. In fact I am quite happy with a lot of things I have seen so far but there is one important thing that I feel that they could have done a lot better: TK magic!

TK will now cast like normal armies using the dice from the pool and will have access to the lore of light, lore of death and the lore of nehekhara. This is in many aspects good news, especially lore of light works really well with TK units (well one spell in the lore doesn't work at all but that can always be switched for the signature spell). Spells like speed of light, pha's protection and birona's timewarp has the potential to really spice things up and the rest of the lore contains a number of useful spells that is good for any army. So, with access to one of the best lores in the game TK will be almost unstoppable right? Well, not exactly, the heirophant of the army is forced to choose the lore of nehekhara meaning that TK players needs at least two casters to even gain access to the lore of light. So what about this lore of nehekhara that we are now forced to take? Lets take an closer look:

Signature: Khsar's incantation of the desert wind. Cast on 8/16+, Augment, affects all unengaged friendly nehekharan undead units within 12/24", each units can only be affected once per turn. Each unit can make an extra move, this move cannot be used to charge enemy units.

So this is the replacement for the old movement incantation. Would be good if the old movement incantation was ever used gain access to the ability to march. However as most TK players know this was rarely how it was used, instead it was used to charge enemy units in the magic phase after having setup flank charges and combo charges in the movement phase. In total, this new movement spell gives some parts of the TK army an ability that all other armies get for free, not exactly stellar.

1. DJaf's Incantation of Cursed Blades. Cast on 7/10+. Augment, range 12/24". Gives target unit KB, if target unit has KB or HKB the effect will work on an to wound roll of 5+.

Not an terrible spell, probably the best spell in the entire lore. KB isn't as great as some people seem to think though and I would much, much rather have had this spell be: unit gains poison as the new spell in the O&G book.

2. Neru's Incantation of Protection. Cast on 9/18+. Augment, range 12/all units within 12". Target unit/units gains a 5+ ward save until start of next friendly magic phase.

5+ ward isn't terrible. 5+ ward save cast on an single unit within 12 inch of the caster at the cost of 9+ is however rather weak. The buffed version is excellent but cost more to cast than final transmutation/transformation of kadon/chain lightning/purple sun and as much as Okkam's mindrazor/dwellers etc. I think that most people would agree that these spells gives a bit more bang for the buck.

3. Ptra's Incantation of righteous smiting. Cast on 9/18+. Augment range 12"/ All units within 24". Each affected units gains an extra attack. If armed with bow, gains multiple shot (2).

Giving an extra attack to an single unit for the casting cost of 9+ in an very close proximity of the caster is.... disappointing. The powered up version is again ridiculously hard to cast and an disaster waiting to happen for the guy who is holding your army together!

4. Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance. Cast on 10/13+. Hex, Range 18/36 Reduces the movement of the target unit by 1D3 and all terrain is treated as dangerous terrain until start of casters next magic phase.

If the target unit is in rage of the basic level of this spell and the caster is your heirophant then it's time to move your heirophant further away from the enemy! The casting cost is an joke for the effect that the spell provides, an excellent way of wasting casting dice!

5. Usekhp's Incantation of Desiccation, cast on 11/22. Hex, Range 24". Target unit suffers -1 strength, -1 toughness (to min of 1) Until start of caster's next magic phase, powered version reduces these characteristics by D3.

An weaker version of soulblight in lore of death. So at the basic level this spell is exactly identical to soulblight but a lot harder to cast. At the powered up level it cost 22 to cast, and the spell still has an 1/3 chance of being no better than the basic version. The potential is still there but at a casting cost of 22 will very, very rarely be worth the casting cost (again compare to the powered up version of birona's timewarp and then tell me you wouldn't rather be using lore of light...). Also as an second reference look at the powered up version of soulblight which is much easier to cast and has a lot more potent effect.


6. Sakmet's Incantaion of the Skullstorm, cast on 15+/25+. Magical vortex.
Place an Small/Large template on the caster and move it an artillery dice x caster level in the designated direction. Misfire leads to vortex heading of in an random direction. Anything in the path of the vortex template takes an st4 hit.

So an vortex spell, the other vortex spells in the game thus far has been rather overpowered, especially in their powered up versions. As an fitting ending to an lackluster lore this couldn't be further from the truth for the TK vortex. Costs almost as much to cast as purple sun and the new O&G vortex with none of the potency. I thought it would be impossible to make an spell that was less attractive than the magic missile in the old TK lore but they really managed to to it, well done lads!

Many of the spells in the new lore mimics effects of either the old TK lore or the main lores. Regardless of the source of inspiration, most of them tend to be either: weaker than the original spell, have too short range or cost far to much to cast for what they do. In some cases the spells suffer from all of the above. Many people felt that when using old TK magic the effect of each spell was rather weak but you could push many of them through in an turn to gain somewhat powerful magic phase. With the effect of many of the spells in the new lore being less powerful than in the old lore and all of the spells having quite high casting cost the new lore really provides the worst of both worlds.

The healing effect that the lore provides is an added bonus, but with it only being able to heal an single wound on constructs per spell and with no ability to focus healing to one unit it will be a lot less of an bonus than the authors probably thought. In my experiences, there are few situations where you as an TK player has the need to provide an moderate amount of healing to many units, normally you need to provide a big amount of healing to one unit or no healing at all. Everything isn't so dark however, it is quite possible that you can bring an single lv 1 as your heirophant and then bring an lv 4 with light magic which will be your main caster. Lets hope this is the case!

GodlessM
09-04-2011, 20:43
Aside from the fact that it a fantastic lore for anyone that can think tactics instead of just 'big bang killy killy spell', it is necessary for the army's synergy, and isn't a choice that people can just ignore since the Hierophant has to take it.

theJ
09-04-2011, 20:58
What GodlessM said.

Also, being able to combine the lore bonus with the signature spell should lead to much awesomesause. I'd take the lore for that combo alone, even if I could choose the others.

Moving on, I'm a bit distraught that you're comparing the new spells to ones that are commonly seen as "broken", and then complaining because they are not even more powerful :wtf:

The lore is useful because every single spell in it is useful in a Tomb Kings army. It doesn't have to be the most "powerful" lore to have ever been created in order for it to be worth our time to use.

Maoriboy007
09-04-2011, 21:15
Actually, he makes some very good points, the lore is rather underwhelming and none of the rumours so far seem to indicate that TK will rely on magic any less than before.
The O&G lore is actually fairly balanced by comparison , unlike the rest of the O&G book which , while occasionally interesting, tended to be rather uninspiring for me.
Sadly as a long time TK player it seems they went for even more uninspiring. Even the new units seem to be more sizzle than sausage.


Moving on, I'm a bit distraught that you're comparing the new spells to ones that are commonly seen as "broken", and then complaining because they are not even more powerful :wtf:The lore is useful because every single spell in it is useful in a Tomb Kings army. It doesn't have to be the most "powerful" lore to have ever been created in order for it to be worth our time to use.Personally I don't need broken spells, practical is far better. They did a decent job with ONG magic, why they had to fail with TK magic is beyond me, the spell costs and ranges are way out of whack.

Ludaman
09-04-2011, 21:18
as with the O&G vortex, the tomb kings version is not bad at all, it can do just as much as the other vortexes and dwellers bellows when used against the right target. The right target being any horde unit of toughness 3 infantry with poor saves... hmm I wonder if anyone is using units of those this edition...

freddieyu
09-04-2011, 23:21
For spell number 4, please note that open ground is also a form of terrain. This is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. Thus even in the open if the unit marches or charges, then everyone in it takes a dangerous terrain check.

GodlessM
09-04-2011, 23:24
For spell number 4, please note that open ground is also a form of terrain. This is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. Thus even in the open if the unit marches or charges, then everyone in it takes a dangerous terrain check.

I'd read the rulebook again if I were you. If says Open Terrain is terrain, not Open Ground; there is a huge difference.

Falkman
09-04-2011, 23:27
I'd read the rulebook again if I were you. If says Open Terrain is terrain, not Open Ground; there is a huge difference.
No there's not, the piece about open ground refers to it as "open terrain" several times.

Chris_
09-04-2011, 23:29
I'd read the rulebook again if I were you. If says Open Terrain is terrain, not Open Ground; there is a huge difference.Open ground = Open terrain...

GodlessM
09-04-2011, 23:30
So cavalry and chariots cannot move around any part of the battlefield at anything other than normal movement pace for fear of having to test dangerous terrain (they count all open terrain as dangerous terrain)? Good luck with that. The rules of p116 even say that the table itself plays no part in the battle.

Falkman
09-04-2011, 23:31
They count everything except open ground as dangerous terrain. The rules for open ground says that it's open terrain with no other special rules. Thus chariots and cavalry can travel across it without problem.

Chris_
09-04-2011, 23:39
So cavalry and chariots cannot move around any part of the battlefield at anything other than normal movement pace for fear of having to test dangerous terrain (they count all open terrain as dangerous terrain)? Good luck with that. The rules of p116 even say that the table itself plays no part in the battle.No, they treat all terrain OTHER THAN open ground/terrain as Dangerous Terrain...

Wakerofgods
09-04-2011, 23:46
For spell number 4, please note that open ground is also a form of terrain. This is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. Thus even in the open if the unit marches or charges, then everyone in it takes a dangerous terrain check.

This just sounds so wrong... so very wrong. It might be right, but I highly doubt it links up with RAI in any way.
Not that this matters all that much...no point in arguing my RAI vs your RAI and even less in arguing my RAI vs your RAW. I just felt like pointing out that this (to me) seems like a massive 'don't play with this guy IRL' position. But, you probally wouldn't want to play with me IRL either.

GodlessM
09-04-2011, 23:55
They count everything except open ground as dangerous terrain. The rules for open ground says that it's open terrain with no other special rules. Thus chariots and cavalry can travel across it without problem.

Ah, I overlooked that. Still, the passage does still say that the table itself plays no part in the game, so in my opinion the spell (and Curse of Anrehir) make units such as infantry act like cavalry when it comes to terrain. Either way, I won't argue it further as it is off-topic. Apologies to the OP.

Chris_
10-04-2011, 00:31
Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance however does say "... treats all terrain (even open ground) as Dangerous Terrain..."

So in this case, you move, you roll DT check :D

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 00:33
Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance however does say "... treats all terrain (even open ground) as Dangerous Terrain..."

So in this case, you move, you roll DT check :D

I never read it, just assumed it was the same as Curse by the way people were talking about it.

And that's why I normally never assume anything, because you know what they say about assume...:p

Kevlar
10-04-2011, 01:20
Looks pretty good to me. And you can still take death or light which again, very strong lores.

TK magic is fine. Maybe take a lvl 4 with death and a couple lvl 1 or 2 with tk magic. Seems pretty potent with multiple casters who can buff and heal units at the same time.

WarhammerNoob4ever
10-04-2011, 01:44
people need to calm down and stop freaking about something that very very very few ppl have actually seen with their own eyes.....

all we have right now is ppl's rememberings of the magic they have seen from the book, which means that the actual definitions and explanations of the spells are not 100% representative of the spells and we all know how one lil word in a spell or rule can vastly change its affects (not that i am complaining about the huge effort of our rumour mongers!!! love you guys!!!)

IMO, the TK lore is exactly what it should be, nothin fancy or big bang, but all about supporting their troops to do what they should do. That was always the fluff of the TK priests, they supported the King and his army as they went to war, they didnt win the fights for them.

and i dont kno how u can that KB is worse than Poison, they work better on different targets, KB is amazing on high armoured targets like Chao Warriors etc which has always been a weak point for TK, now my TG are KB on a 5+, hell ya! or my sphinx is HKB that steam tank/HPA/hydra on a 5+ instead of a 6+ that is basically doubling the changes, how is that bad?!

my only complaint, and its a minor one, is that we cant charge from our sign spell bc i always loved that aspect of TKs, setting up beautiful flanks and rear charges and then charging in the magic phase..... but i can see out for a 16+, letting half ur army charge in the magic phase could be problematic plus charging is less important in 8th than in 7th (or 6th for that matter)

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 01:57
Looks pretty good to me. And you can still take death or light which again, very strong lores.

TK magic is fine. Maybe take a lvl 4 with death and a couple lvl 1 or 2 with tk magic. Seems pretty potent with multiple casters who can buff and heal units at the same time.

Heiro has to take Nehekaran lore.

Chris_
10-04-2011, 02:13
Heiro has to take Nehekaran lore.Yeah, guess the rule is going to be the same as last book with highest Ld = Hierophant.


I love the sig spell (no charge is a bummer, but whatever) and the augment spells. As for the last three they are kind of a let down compared to what you can get in the basic lores. Nr. 5 and 6 are strictly worse (IMO) than the Death Lore equivalents and Nr. 4 is worse than the rule book Lore of Beast's "Curse of Anraheir". I think we are going to have to IF the +1A spell, especially if we wanna do the boosted version... That one is awesome :D All friendly Nehekharan Undead within 24" get it... + raise... Someone can see the synergy in a 2vs2 here? :evilgrin:

Lilike
10-04-2011, 02:59
Moving on, I'm a bit distraught that you're comparing the new spells to ones that are commonly seen as "broken", and then complaining because they are not even more powerful :wtf:

The lore is useful because every single spell in it is useful in a Tomb Kings army. It doesn't have to be the most "powerful" lore to have ever been created in order for it to be worth our time to use.

No it doesn't have to be the most powerful lore in the game for it to be worth taking that is very true. The point I tried to make in my original post was that it is in fact an rather weak lore which works a lot worse with the TK book that I would have expected. I would actually rather have chosen to not have this lore in the first place and only have access to lore of light and lore of death if this would allow me to choose the lore for my heirophant. I do compare some of the spells in the game with spells that costs as much to cast in other lores, I could have used other examples but I did use quite a few and not all of them are considered broken.


people need to calm down and stop freaking about something that very very very few ppl have actually seen with their own eyes.....

all we have right now is ppl's rememberings of the magic they have seen from the book, which means that the actual definitions and explanations of the spells are not 100% representative of the spells and we all know how one lil word in a spell or rule can vastly change its affects (not that i am complaining about the huge effort of our rumour mongers!!! love you guys!!!)

IMO, the TK lore is exactly what it should be, nothin fancy or big bang, but all about supporting their troops to do what they should do. That was always the fluff of the TK priests, they supported the King and his army as they went to war, they didnt win the fights for them.

and i dont kno how u can that KB is worse than Poison, they work better on different targets, KB is amazing on high armoured targets like Chao Warriors etc which has always been a weak point for TK, now my TG are KB on a 5+, hell ya! or my sphinx is HKB that steam tank/HPA/hydra on a 5+ instead of a 6+ that is basically doubling the changes, how is that bad?!

my only complaint, and its a minor one, is that we cant charge from our sign spell bc i always loved that aspect of TKs, setting up beautiful flanks and rear charges and then charging in the magic phase..... but i can see out for a 16+, letting half ur army charge in the magic phase could be problematic plus charging is less important in 8th than in 7th (or 6th for that matter)

My comments are indeed only relevant assuming that the rumors for the TK lore are true. Poison would be a better effect for TK due to the fact that it could be given to the archers to make their ranged attack so much more potent. Anyone who has used archers with poison know how nasty this combo can be. This doesn't mean that I always feel that KB is worse than poison.
I agree with you regarding your last point, it wouldn't be possible to allow everyone in the bubble make an charge by using the first spell, I would never argue for that.


Aside from the fact that it a fantastic lore for anyone that can think tactics instead of just 'big bang killy killy spell', it is necessary for the army's synergy, and isn't a choice that people can just ignore since the Hierophant has to take it.

Well that leaves out me and Maoriboy007 who cannot think tactically and can only think "big bang killy killy spell". The fact that taking the lore isn't a choice and that the lore itself doesn't particularly help the army's synergy is the main concern of my post.

Chris_
10-04-2011, 03:35
If I could choose the sig and the first three spells with my hiero (lvl 4) that would be swell. Then all of the rest would go in to Light and/or Death. But I am guessing this is not the case.

I am going to try several variants, a lvl 3 hiero with basic protection items and then maybe a lvl 4 with light and go for Tomb Princes as general/combat support. If you get the rally spell with the light priest just swap for sig spell.

TsukeFox
10-04-2011, 04:19
Man tomb king magic makes ruin/plague, dark, high, vamp, gut, beast, and wood elf are all cheap parler tricks in comparison. I already want a new skaven codex, even though other armies deserve a new codexes.

scruffyryan
10-04-2011, 05:20
The tomb king lore benefits shooting more than the close combat aspect of it.

Lowered movement, lowered toughness, multiple shot in a bubble, a bouncing more damage vortex Viewed from a shooting army perspective its a very strong lore.

Memnos
10-04-2011, 05:49
If you think the tomb kings rely upon magic and the lore is pants, there is a simple solution: Don't play Tomb Kings. They clearly aren't for you. Definitely not if you look at that lore and don't see how to make it work.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Try a different army. I think the lore is fine and there are several uses, but since this isn't a request for tactics thread and merely a thread arguing the lore is useless, I will wish you well and suggest once again you play a different army.

WarmbloodedLizard
10-04-2011, 08:07
Why does GW have to kill all armies I want to start? first beastmen, now TK. half of what made these armies different and interesting was replaced with some horribly unflavorful rubbish. :( It's like little kids designed this lore and removed to old, ingenious, mechanic.

The more books they release the less I want OK to be next. I don't want my ogres to go the same way.

sssk
10-04-2011, 08:41
I'm just gonna take a couple of examples from this thread to make a point.


Signature: Khsar's incantation of the desert wind. Cast on 8/16+, Augment, affects all unengaged friendly nehekharan undead units within 12/24", each units can only be affected once per turn. Each unit can make an extra move, this move cannot be used to charge enemy units.

In total, this new movement spell gives some parts of the TK army an ability that all other armies get for free, not exactly stellar.



All the other armies get marching for free, fair enough, but then if tomb kings could march each model would cost an extra point or two. This spell is essentially saving you points in your army, but costing you power dice. seems like a fair trade to me. It's just negating a tomb king weakness (and a lot of magic these days is just used to negate weaknesses).


They did a decent job with ONG magic, why they had to fail with TK magic is beyond me, the spell costs and ranges are way out of whack.

Have you played with the almost-soon-to-be-new tomb king book? No? neither have I, so how can we decide that they've failed with the tomb king lore before you've actually seen it in action? The greenskin book had all of this kind of negativity about random ranges and stuff for the big waaaagh, and people generally saying the little waaaaagh was "underpowered", but I don't see many greenskins complaining now.

Just because things don't work the same way as they used to, doesn't mean they don't work, it just means you have to use them differently. This is what was said when 7th turned to 8th, it's what was said when the new greenskin book came out, and I have a shiney shilling bet that it will be said of virtually (if not precisely) every book that gets released in 8th edition.

As an aside, I think some of these spells look pretty flippin' good, and (regarding a comment made in the original post) I fail to see how poison would help tomb kings nearly as much as killing blow. There's plenty of stuff to get rid of tough monsters etc, making enemy characters scared of charging your skeletons is massive. Keep things in perspective of what your units can do, and what your units lack, the magic counteracts a lot of those weaknesses.

Ronin[XiC]
10-04-2011, 09:11
http://imgur.com/a/QhB6R
All Spells for those who are interested!

RanaldLoec
10-04-2011, 11:28
as with the O&G vortex, the tomb kings version is not bad at all, it can do just as much as the other vortexes and dwellers bellows when used against the right target. The right target being any horde unit of toughness 3 infantry with poor saves... hmm I wonder if anyone is using units of those this edition...

Empire, any elves, skaven, etc

Nighthawke
10-04-2011, 11:47
i cant understand why people dont like the new spells, they are awesome, , free move, killing blow, extra attack, ward save and each of theses gives you models back, thats amazing.

they youee got the tochness one which is very nice considering you want to make every skelly atack that does hit wound. minus movement is again good as it means tomb kings can out pace other armes and then the skullstorm which is pretty good at wiping out hordes moreso then the OnG but not as good agaisnt elite people.

Id gladly trade my big waagh spells for all of these and some of my little waagh ones. Also there casting values are fine especially when you power them up and they work on all units in 12 or more inchs

Chris_
10-04-2011, 11:59
i cant understand why people dont like the new spells, they are awesome, , free move, killing blow, extra attack, ward save and each of theses gives you models back, thats amazing.It is not really a free move, it is a fix for our unability to march. So we need to "waste" spells and power dice to do what you get to do for free. The other stuff is aces though :D

Tokamak
10-04-2011, 12:18
Aside from the fact that it a fantastic lore for anyone that can think tactics instead of just 'big bang killy killy spell'

Indeed, this is the way magic should be treated. It shouldn't be just highly volatile ranged weaponry, it's supposed to augment and enable creative tactics.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-04-2011, 12:26
Without access to loremaster I think that the army will need to be diverse in order to get the maximum effect of the spells. Before combat you'll need to use a mix of additional shooting and movement, plus movement reduction. Once battle lines are engaged you'll then start using killing blow and additional attacks.

It would be great to benefit from some of the lore of light buffs, but I think that unless you take 3 or more wizards you'll want to be using the TK lore. I also think the death sniper spells will see minimal use, because of the access to killing blow and heroic killing blow on a number of units.


Can tomb kings duplicate spells other than the signature spell?

Chris_
10-04-2011, 12:28
Can tomb kings duplicate spells other than the signature spell?Apparently there is a Liche High Priest special character that has Loremaster for Lore of Nehekhara.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-04-2011, 12:29
Yeah but he's a special character- something I try to avoid using and not something I'd want to use in every game.

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 13:36
Well that leaves out me and Maoriboy007 who cannot think tactically and can only think "big bang killy killy spell". The fact that taking the lore isn't a choice and that the lore itself doesn't particularly help the army's synergy is the main concern of my post.

And you have the book and have played a lot with it to learn the army's synergies yes? As far as I can see theory hammering this lore fits the army perfectly, suits the TK image excellently (even as a tournament gamer I acknowledge it is a still a game for fun and fluff does have a part to play), and as far as I can see the lore synergises with the army fine so as long as you aren't assuming the army plays the exact same as the old book.

Both shooty lists and battleline lists can benefit from the area of effect on most spells and constant buffs to multiple units. As I said, it is a new style of play; even Cruddace said he sees the TK as a marching legion of several phalynx', and that seems on paper very much how the army will play (albeit they can't actually march). The one downside to this is that to be effective you will have to tool your Heirophant appropiately since he may often get stuck in the thick of it. It will be in no way an easy army to play, but they will be more fun and more rewarding because of that.

Haravikk
10-04-2011, 13:42
I think that while the analysis is interesting, you don't seem to be factoring in the lore attribute to the cost of casting; when you do that, the cost of each spell is very reasonable indeed. Going to be interesting!

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 13:46
I think that while the analysis is interesting, you don't seem to be factoring in the lore attribute to the cost of casting; when you do that, the cost of each spell is very reasonable indeed. Going to be interesting!

Exactly. Considering the size of the board, 16+ to move most if not all of your army again and regain wounds on most if not all of your army is very reasonable.

Okuto
10-04-2011, 14:31
damnation they gave us a super duper killy spell too.....

suppose it was coming eh?

Lilike
10-04-2011, 15:45
And you have the book and have played a lot with it to learn the army's synergies yes? As far as I can see theory hammering this lore fits the army perfectly, suits the TK image excellently (even as a tournament gamer I acknowledge it is a still a game for fun and fluff does have a part to play), and as far as I can see the lore synergises with the army fine so as long as you aren't assuming the army plays the exact same as the old book.

Both shooty lists and battleline lists can benefit from the area of effect on most spells and constant buffs to multiple units. As I said, it is a new style of play; even Cruddace said he sees the TK as a marching legion of several phalynx', and that seems on paper very much how the army will play (albeit they can't actually march). The one downside to this is that to be effective you will have to tool your Heirophant appropiately since he may often get stuck in the thick of it. It will be in no way an easy army to play, but they will be more fun and more rewarding because of that.

That is more like the kind of thoughtful analysis that I was hoping for. Most players appear to like the new lore, I hope you will put your money where your mouth is and start playing TK (if they aren't already) so that the army start selling better and gets better support. One guy suggested that I stop playing TK. I have been playing the army since 6:th edition and I actually like the new release (but not the lore obviously) so I don't see why I would stop playing it. With the new release I actually think TK can work without very much magic support and that may be the way I will end up playing them in 8:th edition. Or perhaps I will try to fit a couple of casters in my list and use a lv 4 with the lore of light to bolster my troops. Or perhaps I will see the light, change my mind entirely and go crazy with the new lore, who knows...

Leogun_91
10-04-2011, 15:55
They seem quite good, at least the buff spells are very useful (they heal and give a good buff) and most spells are useful though I don't find Usekhp's Incantation of Desiccation to have much use in an army with access to lore of death, at least not with that casting value.

Ronin[XiC]
10-04-2011, 16:00
The TK lore is more or less exactly what magic SHOULD have been like.
SUPPORT.
I hate those insta kill uber destruction spells of madness...

Granting +1 atacks, movement, Killing Blow, Healing, Debuffs for the enemy... that's perfect.
O&G lore is kinda and pretty nice.

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 16:04
They seem quite good, at least the buff spells are very useful (they heal and give a good buff) and most spells are useful though I don't find Usekhp's Incantation of Desiccation to have much use in an army with access to lore of death, at least not with that casting value.

Yea but in order to have a good change at getting Soulblight as an alternative you will need to take two Level 2's.

The Satyr
10-04-2011, 16:34
Movement hex + Poison archers and catapults
Killing blow spell + scarabs
Ward spell + sphinx and other constructs
:angel:

Leogun_91
10-04-2011, 17:59
Yea but in order to have a good change at getting Soulblight as an alternative you will need to take two Level 2's.Fair enough, but I find the spell lacking compared to the other spells in the TK lore as well and would (if I played TK) probably only use it when I really needed it, being one spell I could however always chose to have other spells instead.

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 18:05
Fair enough, but I find the spell lacking compared to the other spells in the TK lore as well and would (if I played TK) probably only use it when I really needed it, being one spell I could however always chose to have other spells instead.

You are right, the high casting value hurts it, but it costs more points just for the alternative.

Wesser
10-04-2011, 18:09
Problem is that you are comparing each spell to the best in every other lore.

In this you get vortex spell, a movement spell, a attack boost spell, a spell to nerf enemies and ward.... None of of sthe spells are fantastic but all of them are useful, which cant exactly be said for all the lores out there.

When you cant be dealt a bad hand with a lore, then it aint a bad lore

theJ
10-04-2011, 18:41
Just figured something out... Say you deploy 3 priests (lvl1 for the sake of simplicity) with Lore of Nehekhara, you cast the signature spell with each of them.... that nets you a total of... 16" movement total (including movement phase) + 3D3+6 wounds restored.... on most of the units in the army... per turn....
Obviously this is far too weak :angel:

Heh... and I've yet to even see the book. Can't wait to see what I'll have came up with once I've actually played the army a couple weeks :)

The Satyr
10-04-2011, 18:57
No, it says that NO unit can be moved by blah blah wind more than once per turn (though they still benefit from the attribute)

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 19:18
Just figured something out... Say you deploy 3 priests (lvl1 for the sake of simplicity) with Lore of Nehekhara, you cast the signature spell with each of them.... that nets you a total of... 16" movement total (including movement phase) + 3D3+6 wounds restored.... on most of the units in the army... per turn....
Obviously this is far too weak :angel:

Heh... and I've yet to even see the book. Can't wait to see what I'll have came up with once I've actually played the army a couple weeks :)

Two problems with this; only the Heiro has the Nehekaran lore, and a unit can only be effected by the movement spell once per turn.

astorre
10-04-2011, 21:39
Well I got to say.... I am a little depressed sometimes to read posts on warseer. I am excited as can be about the new army, so much that my Reiklanders are getting put in a box for a while. Then I come on here trying to find any scrap of information I can to sate my thirst while I wait for my book to come in & all I hear is negativity.....
Just to set it straight as well, the TK lore is the ****. The casting values look a little high, but I believe the Casket & the Hierotitan both help out with that. Back that up with a Lv2 with Light and I can see some very powerful magic phases. Im really sorry to everyone who wanted a spell that kills half the enemy army (how boring) but I think that once you start to see how powerful it really is and you use it a couple games it will dawn on you that no, the world is not over and the Tomb Kings will be a great army.

sulla
10-04-2011, 22:14
Movement hex + Poison archers and catapults
Killing blow spell + scarabs
Ward spell + sphinx and other constructs
:angel:

Or Poison;sphinx
Movement;Sphinx
Killing blow;Sphinx... :evilgrin:

Jack of Blades
10-04-2011, 22:28
Or Poison;sphinx
Movement;Sphinx
Killing blow;Sphinx... :evilgrin:

Or for ease of use; Sphinx :p

vinny t
10-04-2011, 22:50
Godless, I was under the impression that all priests could take the tk lore, but the Heirophant had to? You could still have multiple priests with the lore of nehekhara, I think.

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 22:52
Godless, I was under the impression that all priests could take the tk lore, but the Heirophant had to? You could still have multiple priests with the lore of nehekhara, I think.

I don't think that was what was reported from the rulebook. It's very far back in the rumour thread by now probably (may be on the OP) but I'm fairly certain about it. I'd rather you are right to be honest.

Zoolander
11-04-2011, 04:27
I love the new lore. Finally some useful spells to cast other than "move" and "heal". I met a TK player before that didn't even know they had a magic missile. That's how little the lore was used. This new lore is full of win and fun combos. I am excited by it.


Godless, I was under the impression that all priests could take the tk lore, but the Heirophant had to? You could still have multiple priests with the lore of nehekhara, I think.

Yes, that is the way it works. I'm fairly certain all priests can take Nehekhara. Since most of the spells can only affect a unit one time, though, it makes sense to take Light or Death instead.

GodlessM
11-04-2011, 04:32
Yup the guy changed his post to clarify that all Liche's can take Nehekara. But now that I think about it, not sure I'd want two guys with it since the movement is the only spells that you'd always be wanting to double up but unit can only be effected by it once per turn. The only benefit I see is to spread out healing range. Light could be handy to cover our weaknesses though.

Chris_
11-04-2011, 04:46
Yup the guy changed his post to clarify that all Liche's can take Nehekara. But now that I think about it, not sure I'd want two guys with it since the movement is the only spells that you'd always be wanting to double up but unit can only be effected by it once per turn. The only benefit I see is to spread out healing range. Light could be handy to cover our weaknesses though.But if you only take one level 4 you run the risk of having only 2 augment spells that heal as well.

I'm probably going to take one Liche High Priest and one Liche Priest with Lore of Nehekhara. That way I can have access to the sig spell twice. It is not only important to spread the heal and get more of it, it is also important if the first is dispelled to have a back-up. Even if you can only do the 8+ version. Also good because this way you will at least have 3-4 augment spells and possibly 5.

Ratbeast
11-04-2011, 05:36
But if you only take one level 4 you run the risk of having only 2 augment spells that heal as well.

I'm probably going to take one Liche High Priest and one Liche Priest with Lore of Nehekhara. That way I can have access to the sig spell twice. It is not only important to spread the heal and get more of it, it is also important if the first is dispelled to have a back-up. Even if you can only do the 8+ version. Also good because this way you will at least have 3-4 augment spells and possibly 5.

Agree a lvl 4 and lvl 2 with nehekhara is a must to be sure you will get most if not all the augment spells

Or, just take arkhan, rumour has it he has lore master rule, lol

Chris_
11-04-2011, 05:44
Agree a lvl 4 and lvl 2 with nehekhara is a must to be sure you will get most if not all the augment spells

Or, just take arkhan, rumour has it he has lore master rule, lolReally? I've just heard he is a Level 5 Wizard. There is a rumour about a Liche High Priest special character with lore master though, might be the same or might be a different one.

theJ
11-04-2011, 07:22
No, it says that NO unit can be moved by blah blah wind more than once per turn (though they still benefit from the attribute)

Curses! Foiled again!

Oh well, it'll be fun even without the insane stacking, I guess.

Haravikk
11-04-2011, 09:35
Could you not still combine it with Birrona's Timewarp? Double Movement plus a bonus move is triple normal speed...

Chris_
11-04-2011, 09:37
Could you not still combine it with Birrona's Timewarp? Double Movement plus a bonus move is triple normal speed...Yes, you can combine it since Timewarp change the unit's characteristics.

GodlessM
11-04-2011, 12:12
Just wondering since the signature spell says cannot be 'moved' more than once, but then makes a specific note regarding being affected by the attribute multiple times, would this allow us to cast the incantation on a unit twice, however the second time they would only heal? Seems legal and both RAW and RAI to me; the part about the attribute wouldn't be specified in the spell itself otherwise.


Agree a lvl 4 and lvl 2 with nehekhara is a must to be sure you will get most if not all the augment spells

Or, just take arkhan, rumour has it he has lore master rule, lol

On the contrary I believe rumour had it that he doesn't have the loremaster ability. Looks like a case of adding 2 + 2 and getting 5 here mate :)

Chris_
11-04-2011, 12:18
Just wondering since the signature spell says cannot be 'moved' more than once, but then makes a specific note regarding being affected by the attribute multiple times, would this allow us to cast the incantation on a unit twice, however the second time they would only heal? Seems legal and both RAW and RAI to me; the part about the attribute wouldn't be specified in the spell itself otherwise.Yes, with two wizards you could cast it twice, any unit that was targeted a second time only gets models back.

GodlessM
11-04-2011, 12:25
Yes, with two wizards you could cast it twice, any unit that was targeted a second time only gets models back.

For that reason alone I would take a Level 1 Nehekaran. But Lore of Light...oh this is a tough choice. Guess I'll have to wait until my book and models arrive and try it out.

TheKingInYellow
11-04-2011, 15:19
The lore really does seem to be written with the army list in mind. I'm probably taking the army lore exclusively unless I am running more than six caster levels.

Rikkjourd
11-04-2011, 15:34
I'm going to be stubborn as a mule and ONLY play the TK lore. At least until I get bored with the army or lose all the time, then I might try the other ones as well.

ewar
11-04-2011, 16:50
6. Sakmet's Incantaion of the Skullstorm, cast on 15+/25+. Magical vortex.
Place an Small/Large template on the caster and move it an artillery dice x caster level in the designated direction. Misfire leads to vortex heading of in an random direction. Anything in the path of the vortex template takes an st4 hit.

So an vortex spell, the other vortex spells in the game thus far has been rather overpowered, especially in their powered up versions. As an fitting ending to an lackluster lore this couldn't be further from the truth for the TK vortex. Costs almost as much to cast as purple sun and the new O&G vortex with none of the potency. I thought it would be impossible to make an spell that was less attractive than the magic missile in the old TK lore but they really managed to to it, well done lads!

Oh my god - how can people complain about this spell??

Think of it this way - which armies are essentially immune to purple sun? 3 types of elves, some WOC, skaven. Whilst humans to an extent are hurt less by it.

Stick a large S4 template over them and move it 40" across the board - that will decimate an Elf army. As much as I dislike the new mega spells, at least the pointy ears will understand my pain now... stupid initiative 1 vs purple sun!

I think the lore looks awesome and, along with the new models, has made me actually consider tomb kings as a viable army choice for the first time. It's fluffy, requires thought but also potentially devestating when used right. Ticks all the boxes for me.

Now all I have to do is come up with a unique colour scheme - difficult for dusty undead...

Enigmatik1
11-04-2011, 17:11
I actually like the lore and do not feel hamstrung by having it be assigned to the Hierophant. I do not like the #6 spell, but I dislike all spells of that nature. Needless to say, I'll be swapping that baby out whenever I can. :D

I like subversive/manipulative magic and have been dying to get my hands on LoLight since 8E dropped but the Dunce Cap failed me every time. Now, I no longer need it to get my Speed of Light-enhanced Bone Giant! :D Even Death, which I generally dislike is a good combo lore for the additional hexes (especially Doom and Darkness). I'm paranoid about the Hierophant auto-loss condition, however. It was bad enough before when he didn't MC. Now that he can MC, I'm going to be nervous every time I pick up dice to cast spells...but I'll adapt/adjust. Hell, I stuck to my guns and ran a Chariot army when they "sucked" this is no different. Adapt or die. It's that simple.

Honestly, I'm just glad I have a tangible reason to field a second Priest now aside from the Casket of Souls.

Storak
11-04-2011, 20:04
the original posts does make a rather good analysis, and i have seen very few arguments against the points being made by Lilike.

it is obvious from the O&G lore and now this one, that GW wants to tone done magic. unfortunetly this is bad news for the armies that don t have access to rulebook lores.

i made a similar analysis for O&G lores which have similar power problems but in a different way.

with the TK lores, i also noticed that they are weaker than similar spells from the rulebook. i also think that it is a design error, that multiples of the signature spell make (somewhat) little sense.

some spells are obviously weak, like giving KB to a unit. like with poison in the O&G lore, people seem to make big plans around those spells being cast on units that already have KB/poison, without doing the math. basically the effect is tiny, against most targets. (typically this will kill one additional guy or so..)

i find it difficult to evaluate the lore as a whole, as i find it very difficult to figure out how useful the healing capability will be.

but in total, the idea of healing being a secondary effect (and one that can t be targeted very well) feels like one of those stupid game design ideas that come up after 3 bottles of beer, and that should have been discarded again.

Caitsidhe
11-04-2011, 20:13
i cant understand why people dont like the new spells, they are awesome, , free move, killing blow, extra attack, ward save and each of theses gives you models back, thats amazing.

they youee got the tochness one which is very nice considering you want to make every skelly atack that does hit wound. minus movement is again good as it means tomb kings can out pace other armes and then the skullstorm which is pretty good at wiping out hordes moreso then the OnG but not as good agaisnt elite people.

Id gladly trade my big waagh spells for all of these and some of my little waagh ones. Also there casting values are fine especially when you power them up and they work on all units in 12 or more inchs

I like the Killing Blow. The rest don't impress me in the slightest.

Ratbeast
11-04-2011, 21:03
Ptra's Incantation of righteous smiting and time warp, 3 attack tomb guard :)

Vepr
11-04-2011, 22:30
The TK lore seems great to me but then again I play ogres so most other magic looks impressive. :p

H33D
11-04-2011, 22:47
A scary combo to me is the righteous smiting spell on Ushabti. Multiple Shots (2) with Great Bows? Yes, please!

GodlessM
11-04-2011, 22:48
some spells are obviously weak, like giving KB to a unit. like with poison in the O&G lore, people seem to make big plans around those spells being cast on units that already have KB/poison, without doing the math. basically the effect is tiny, against most targets. (typically this will kill one additional guy or so..)

When you make a blanket statement like that of course it seems like it makes no different. It's not like you have to consider the amount of attacks going into it or anything. Furthermore, do the math. Normally they KB with 1/6 of the attacks, after the spell they KB with 1/3 of the attacks; that's double the original outcome.

Lord Inquisitor
11-04-2011, 23:30
6. Sakmet's Incantaion of the Skullstorm, cast on 15+/25+. Magical vortex.
Place an Small/Large template on the caster and move it an artillery dice x caster level in the designated direction. Misfire leads to vortex heading of in an random direction. Anything in the path of the vortex template takes an st4 hit.

So an vortex spell, the other vortex spells in the game thus far has been rather overpowered, especially in their powered up versions. As an fitting ending to an lackluster lore this couldn't be further from the truth for the TK vortex. Costs almost as much to cast as purple sun and the new O&G vortex with none of the potency. I thought it would be impossible to make an spell that was less attractive than the magic missile in the old TK lore but they really managed to to it, well done lads!
I'm not going to comment on the rest of the lore but I think this is a terrible analysis. While purple sun is utterly obscene against ogres, trolls, dwarfs, lizards and steam tanks, this is vastly more powerful against just about anything else. All elves, most daemons, chaos warriors/marauders, goblins, men, undead, skaven, most beastmen ... this spell does as much damage or rather more than a purple sun!

Against Skaven, Empire (except steam tanks), beastmen, high/dark/wood elves and warriors of chaos this spell is MORE powerful than purple sun! Excuse me, against the majority of armies in the game, you are getting a spell that's more powerful than perhaps the most maligned spell in 8th? And that's what you consider a spell so unattractive as never to use?:eyebrows:

ewar
11-04-2011, 23:33
the original posts does make a rather good analysis, and i have seen very few arguments against the points being made by Lilike.

it is obvious from the O&G lore and now this one, that GW wants to tone done magic. unfortunetly this is bad news for the armies that don t have access to rulebook lores.

i made a similar analysis for O&G lores which have similar power problems but in a different way.

with the TK lores, i also noticed that they are weaker than similar spells from the rulebook. i also think that it is a design error, that multiples of the signature spell make (somewhat) little sense.

some spells are obviously weak, like giving KB to a unit. like with poison in the O&G lore, people seem to make big plans around those spells being cast on units that already have KB/poison, without doing the math. basically the effect is tiny, against most targets. (typically this will kill one additional guy or so..)

i find it difficult to evaluate the lore as a whole, as i find it very difficult to figure out how useful the healing capability will be.

but in total, the idea of healing being a secondary effect (and one that can t be targeted very well) feels like one of those stupid game design ideas that come up after 3 bottles of beer, and that should have been discarded again.


I don't think you're considering the lore in respect to the army - it wouldn't be good for other races to take, but moving KB from 6+ to 5+ is very good. How about HKB on 5+? As another poster pointed out, TK have always stuggled against armour - this will help alleviate that problem.

Same way that giving multiple shots to bows might not seem like much, but with the cost of skeletons in a big unit that could be adding up the amount of 5+ unmodified bowfire a lot.

The synergies in the lore are very nice - I especially like the -D3 move spell for really confounding an opponents key units while you pepper them with bow fire.

Will have to wait and see how the raising ability of the lore is, but I much prefer this to the unfun raise spam of VC - though given the enormous drop in cost for skeletons this may not be an issue.

ewar
11-04-2011, 23:36
I'm not going to comment on the rest of the lore but I think this is a terrible analysis. While purple sun is utterly obscene against ogres, trolls, dwarfs, lizards and steam tanks, this is vastly more powerful against just about anything else. All elves, most daemons, chaos warriors/marauders, goblins, men, undead, skaven, most beastmen ... this spell does as much damage or rather more than a purple sun!

Against Skaven, Empire (except steam tanks), beastmen, high/dark/wood elves and warriors of chaos this spell is MORE powerful than purple sun! Excuse me, against the majority of armies in the game, you are getting a spell that's more powerful than perhaps the most maligned spell in 8th? And that's what you consider a spell so unattractive as never to use?:eyebrows:


Hehe, I think you missed post 69 Lord Inquisitor :D

Great minds think alike I suppose!

LaughinGremlin
11-04-2011, 23:48
I have no experience with tomb kings at all, so excuse me if this sounds whacked, but has anyone considered putting the spell caster in a chariot unit, which may explain the short casting ranges (as argued by the plaintiff)????

For instance:
A vortex has a greater chance of hitting the enemy when it's unleashed from an advancing chariot, and it can lesson the size of the 50+ horde of infantry that is about to get chariot-charged.

GodlessM
11-04-2011, 23:50
Liche Priest can't be mounted in TK Chariots and thus cannot join Chariot units.

The Satyr
11-04-2011, 23:57
but they can take a horsey ;)

Lilike
12-04-2011, 00:12
I'm not going to comment on the rest of the lore but I think this is a terrible analysis. While purple sun is utterly obscene against ogres, trolls, dwarfs, lizards and steam tanks, this is vastly more powerful against just about anything else. All elves, most daemons, chaos warriors/marauders, goblins, men, undead, skaven, most beastmen ... this spell does as much damage or rather more than a purple sun!

Against Skaven, Empire (except steam tanks), beastmen, high/dark/wood elves and warriors of chaos this spell is MORE powerful than purple sun! Excuse me, against the majority of armies in the game, you are getting a spell that's more powerful than perhaps the most maligned spell in 8th? And that's what you consider a spell so unattractive as never to use?:eyebrows:

I am not going to argue more about the TK release, including the new lore, until I have gained some hands on experience with the book. With that said, I think few people would have been very worried about purple sun if it allowed armor saves , ward saves/regeneration and only caused an single wound even if the casting cost was 15/25. Anyway, I am sure you won't agree regardless what I say so I guess I will leave it at that. Take care and have fun playing with/against the new book!

gero_nz
12-04-2011, 04:06
I'm holding back judgement until i've played a tonne of games. I always found with the last incarnation of TK's that practice and army knowledge was king, especially when it came down to timing. I am looking forward to working with the new lore.

The one thing that did annoy me after reading the book today was that your Heirophant must default to the highest level wizard. However again I suppose that really pushes you to know your army inside and out, and know what to cast and when.

Storak
12-04-2011, 09:45
When you make a blanket statement like that of course it seems like it makes no different. It's not like you have to consider the amount of attacks going into it or anything. Furthermore, do the math. Normally they KB with 1/6 of the attacks, after the spell they KB with 1/3 of the attacks; that's double the original outcome.

double of very little is very little.

24 attacks, 12 wounds, 2 KBs. against armour save 4+ that is just 1 more kill than you would have had without killing blow.

the main bonus of killing blow is against characters. the effect against other units will be something like 1 additional kill on average.


I'm not going to comment on the rest of the lore but I think this is a terrible analysis. While purple sun is utterly obscene against ogres, trolls, dwarfs, lizards and steam tanks, this is vastly more powerful against just about anything else. All elves, most daemons, chaos warriors/marauders, goblins, men, undead, skaven, most beastmen ... this spell does as much damage or rather more than a purple sun!

Against Skaven, Empire (except steam tanks), beastmen, high/dark/wood elves and warriors of chaos this spell is MORE powerful than purple sun! Excuse me, against the majority of armies in the game, you are getting a spell that's more powerful than perhaps the most maligned spell in 8th? And that's what you consider a spell so unattractive as never to use?:eyebrows:

purple sun kills the model. the spells from TK and O&G lore only do a single wound. that is a big difference. against chaos warriors with a shield, the effect is exactly the same as purple sun is. (1/2 * 1/3 = 1/6)

the initiative based spells from the rulebook, which remove whole models are much stronger than these new spells, because they can have such a big effect. they simply remove warmachines, monsters and characters that are very difficult to kill in any other way.

Ronin[XiC]
12-04-2011, 09:58
They are stronger because they are broken.

Storak
12-04-2011, 10:14
;5456997']They are stronger because they are broken.

i agree, several spells from the rulebook are broken.

but we still have to include those, when we compare spells.

Haravikk
12-04-2011, 10:37
The amusing thing about the new vortex spells is that they seem to have immediately realised that they've got things wrong with the 8th edition main lores, so now army books are being given vortexes that actually make sense. It means that almost certainly 9th edition will then nerf over-powered spells to be in line with the new army books.

Maybe we'll get lucky and Storm of Magic will include replacement lores.

Makaber
12-04-2011, 10:48
If anybody will bother with a mandatory choice? I'd go out on a limb here and say "yes". What's next? "Oxygen, yes or no?"

Leogun_91
12-04-2011, 12:17
"Oxygen, yes or no?"It has it's uses but I find it somewhat lackluster. I still use it from time to time.

IcedCrow
12-04-2011, 12:38
I think for our campaign the killer spells will be limited to causing one wound only.

T10
12-04-2011, 12:43
If anybody will bother with a mandatory choice? I'd go out on a limb here and say "yes". What's next? "Oxygen, yes or no?"

If you want to win a game with Tomb Kings, you need to use oxygen!

-T10

Lord Inquisitor
12-04-2011, 15:16
Since when did undead need oxygen? ;)

tarkin1980
12-04-2011, 15:32
For spell number 4, please note that open ground is also a form of terrain. This is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. Thus even in the open if the unit marches or charges, then everyone in it takes a dangerous terrain check.

This is horrible news for my NG fanatics. Instant death as soon as they enter open terrain. :cries:

GodlessM
12-04-2011, 15:57
double of very little is very little.

24 attacks, 12 wounds, 2 KBs. against armour save 4+ that is just 1 more kill than you would have had without killing blow.

the main bonus of killing blow is against characters. the effect against other units will be something like 1 additional kill on average.

And that's what you use the spell for; killing enemy characters. Every spell has particular uses, you can't say they are crap because you are rating them in a genreal all-applications sense.

And your math isn't very compelling since you are assuming everything the TG face will be WS3-6 and will be T4-5 (depending on whether you take Halberds). You have not declared any terms to what you are adding up.

Also 'very little' is defined by the context of what you are adding; very little of some might be very much of something else, and depending on the total over all the difference between very little and quite a lot could be small.

Lord Inquisitor
12-04-2011, 15:59
Hehe, I think you missed post 69 Lord Inquisitor :D

Great minds think alike I suppose!
Pff, you mean read thread then post... :p

I am not going to argue more about the TK release, including the new lore, until I have gained some hands on experience with the book. With that said, I think few people would have been very worried about purple sun if it allowed armor saves , ward saves/regeneration and only caused an single wound even if the casting cost was 15/25. Anyway, I am sure you won't agree regardless what I say so I guess I will leave it at that. Take care and have fun playing with/against the new book!
You have no disagreement from me that Psun would have been a lot less obscene if it allowed wards/MR, did only one wound, etc. But that doesn't change the fact that against most armies, a S4 hit is actually much worse against rank-and-file. Skaven, elves and warriors in particular are generally very unconcerned about the Psun while the new Tomb Kings spell should make them very uncomfortable.


purple sun kills the model. the spells from TK and O&G lore only do a single wound. that is a big difference.
Oh, I know, I play Ogres. Tell me about it :cries:. But most models in the game have only 1 wound and with line infantry being the order of the day in 8th, S4 is much nastier than Psun against the majority of units outside of the Dwarf, OK and Lizard books.


against chaos warriors with a shield, the effect is exactly the same as purple sun is. (1/2 * 1/3 = 1/6)
Not if you take the -1 for it being S4 into account ;). It's actually 1/4. And that's if they have shields. Even with shields and mark of tzeentch, we're talking 1/2*1/2*5/6 = 5/24, which is still more than 1/6. Only 3++ ward save chosen prefer the S4. And marauders will lose 2/3 of a unit to a S4 vortex compared with only 1/3 to Psun. The only thing in the warriors list that really fears the Psun is the hellcannon.

Besides, "it is about the same power as a psun" is not an argument that a spell is underpowered :p


the initiative based spells from the rulebook, which remove whole models are much stronger than these new spells, because they can have such a big effect. they simply remove warmachines, monsters and characters that are very difficult to kill in any other way.
They do, although many of these have high initiative too, and characters in units get LOS! too. Again, believe me, I hate purple sun with my ogres. But with skaven or slaanesh daemons - meh, it's not that bad. A S4 vortex is much, much worse for them. The story is much the same against the majority of armies out there.

Garion
12-04-2011, 16:12
Who care the new miniature range is just amazing. Some of the best to date. Im sure after a while people will find a horrible killer combo with their new rules.

Zywus
12-04-2011, 16:51
The Augument spells all have great value in my opinion since they will effect numerous unit with the lore attribute (exept the nr1 killing blow one). Still, killing blow is a great ability (especially when you can get Heroic killing blow!) and i'd value it over poison.)

The remaining three spells seems a bit lackluster compared to those of other lores but taken as a whole, i'm quite pleased with the lore.

TheKingInYellow
12-04-2011, 17:27
Who care the new miniature range is just amazing. Some of the best to date. Im sure after a while people will find a horrible killer combo with their new rules.

100 archers, Khalida, mulitple shot spell. Guaranteed 26 wounds against a target of any toughness :D

Bye-bye Steam Tank, Bloodthirster, Chaos Knights, etc...

Then give them Killing Blow in CC!

Garion
12-04-2011, 18:06
100 archers, Khalida, mulitple shot spell. Guaranteed 26 wounds against a target of any toughness :D

Bye-bye Steam Tank, Bloodthirster, Chaos Knights, etc...

Then give them Killing Blow in CC!


see it didnt take long did it :)

Now stop your whinging everyone they have already got a killer combo like everyone else now go buy some of those awesome new minis play some battles so i can marvel at the figures and be entertained by your reports ;)

Its not worse its just different.

IcedCrow
12-04-2011, 18:28
It wouldn't be warhammer without people fielding broken builds though :D

TheKingInYellow
12-04-2011, 18:40
It's really not broken, there are lots of flaws with the plan.

Can't move and volley, and it's unclear if TK can stand and shoot or not. Still, it would hurt one or two units quite badly and give you a really nice tarpit after they are engaged.

GodlessM
12-04-2011, 18:53
It's not unclear at all; part of the Nehekaran Undead rule is that we must hold to a charge.

TheKingInYellow
12-04-2011, 19:20
I haven't seen the rule yet :)

GodlessM
12-04-2011, 19:49
Denial is only one of 5 stages of acceptance :)

TheKingInYellow
12-04-2011, 20:25
Denial isn't just a river in Khemri.

Storak
12-04-2011, 20:49
Not if you take the -1 for it being S4 into account ;). It's actually 1/4. And that's if they have shields. Even with shields and mark of tzeentch, we're talking 1/2*1/2*5/6 = 5/24, which is still more than 1/6. Only 3++ ward save chosen prefer the S4. And marauders will lose 2/3 of a unit to a S4 vortex compared with only 1/3 to Psun. The only thing in the warriors list that really fears the Psun is the hellcannon.

Besides, "it is about the same power as a psun" is not an argument that a spell is underpowered :p

sorry, my mistake. i did indeed miss the armour modification. you are completely right.

but i still disagree about the effects of the spell. purple sun can kill models that cause massive problems. the S4 attack does, what many other things do as well.

ps: i miss my orcs in your list of the units, that are vulnerable to purple sun. and as we are discussing TK, shouldn t we also add in the undead?

-----------------------

but getting back to the lore as a whole, i really think that it is very bad that it doesn t have a real "raise" spell. i don t expect to see many skeletons, as they will die in droves to combat result and there is no efficient way to heal them back. i think that it was obvious that at least skeletons need some sort of a "zombie boost" to healing. bringing back two models that are essentially similar to goblins doesn t cut it.

The_Bureaucrat
12-04-2011, 22:03
-----------------------

but getting back to the lore as a whole, i really think that it is very bad that it doesn t have a real "raise" spell. i don t expect to see many skeletons, as they will die in droves to combat result and there is no efficient way to heal them back. i think that it was obvious that at least skeletons need some sort of a "zombie boost" to healing. bringing back two models that are essentially similar to goblins doesn t cut it.

There is a healing spell. The signature spell. All friendly units within 12' heal d3+1 wounds. Also there is some secondary movement thing. This lore attribute is hands down the best lore attribute out of everyone. Consider that its basically a free regrowth with every spell and it makes the first three spells very good.

Is the vortex spell very good? No, its pretty good vs some armies and pretty marginal vs the rest. But what TK player would want to cast purple sun with his general anyway? With a very high chance of miscast, a 1/6 chance that misfires and wrecks his army possibly killing his general. At least if he misfires with this spell it can't kill his general.

ewar
12-04-2011, 22:31
Is the vortex spell very good? No, its pretty good vs some armies and pretty marginal vs the rest.

I just don't get this - marginal, really? A small or large template that moves and inflicts a S4 hit on anything touched up to 40" away? Even T4 4+ save models will feel the pain.

Yes, it's not as good as Psun against multiwound models, but then again it's useful against a much wider range of infantry. Wait and see it in action, with clever positioning and an IF casting this spell will wreak havoc across a battleline against more opponents than Psun.

GodlessM
12-04-2011, 23:13
Denial isn't just a river in Khemri.

Touche, I see what you did there ;)


There is a healing spell. The signature spell. All friendly units within 12' heal d3+1 wounds. Also there is some secondary movement thing.


I think you need to re-read the rumours page as you have things backwards.

Chris_
12-04-2011, 23:19
There is a healing spell. The signature spell. All friendly units within 12' heal d3+1 wounds. Also there is some secondary movement thing. This lore attribute is hands down the best lore attribute out of everyone. Consider that its basically a free regrowth with every spell and it makes the first three spells very good.I think you got it mixed up ;)

D3+1 wounds heal is the lore attribute when one of your augment spells is successfully cast on a unit. Sig spell is the secondary move.

decker_cky
12-04-2011, 23:31
The top spell isn't as good as purple sun for a few reasons:
1.) Doesn't provide power dice
2.) Shorter ranged on low level wizards
3.) Worse against anything with multiple wounds, and against a few near auto win scenarios.

It does have some advantages:
1.) More consistent performance against all armies - nobody shrugs it off.
2.) Longer ranged with a L4.
3.) Lower casting cost.

Overall, it's not as good, but being a more consistent spell, it's a better spell in a balanced army. I also thing the spell is in a better overall lore than purple sun, because lots of death spells are quite situational (including purple sun).

Something to consider - a gunline khemri army could have both purple sun and skull storm, push a unit forward then cast the spell, then reverse the units (same magic phase!) to put up a must dispel barrier of damage threatening advancing enemy units.

The_Bureaucrat
12-04-2011, 23:33
I think you need to re-read the rumours page as you have things backwards.

No, I was joking that the signature spell is a healing spell. I know what the spell is but considering the ability to heal all nearby units d3+1 wounds, I can see using it primarily as healing spell. I think many people underestimate it.

Chris_
12-04-2011, 23:35
No, I was joking that the signature spell is a healing spell. I know what the spell is but considering the ability to heal all nearby units d3+1 wounds, I can see using it primarily as healing spell. I think many people underestimate it.But it doesn't work on units in combat which are the ones that need it the most.

Glen_Savet
12-04-2011, 23:39
The aoe version would still affect them, if cast on say... a lone ushabti wandering around in the middle of your units.

Chris_
12-04-2011, 23:48
The aoe version would still affect them, if cast on say... a lone ushabti wandering around in the middle of your units.What? :confused: The sig spell only targets unengaged friendly units in a bubble of 12"/24" around the caster.

Glen_Savet
12-04-2011, 23:54
Well, have your caster wander around in the middle of your units then. It'll still heal folks in combat.

Chris_
12-04-2011, 23:57
Well, have your caster wander around in the middle of your units then. It'll still heal folks in combat.No, it does not. The spell in question does NOT target units in combat. Units not targeted by the spell can not benefit from the Lore Attribute. Before you try a comeback with the last comment in the sig spell I can spare you in saying that it is there for letting units who have already moved get the benefit of the Lore Attribute, not those engaged in CC.

WarhammerNoob4ever
12-04-2011, 23:58
being a more consistent spell, it's a better spell in a balanced army.



This right here (sorry i butchered ur quote)

The lore is exactly what the TK army is at its core, a very balanced consistent army. That has been the essence of the TK army for almost 10 years.

I compare the TK army to Chess, you have unlimited strategy within a very predefined list of units. You know what your getting whenever u put down our units, the exact nature of their movements (no marching, always #" each move), shooting always hitting on 5+ etc

The new lore just continues this essence, a very balanced list of spells that work meh-to-well against all armies, but never outstanding on one particular army while sucking it hard on others.

TK's have always been a "generals" army, and with the rumours i have seen, this has been kept (but changed quite a bit)

The_Bureaucrat
13-04-2011, 00:01
But it doesn't work on units in combat which are the ones that need it the most.
That's when you switch to+ 1 attack or kb. The benefit of the movement spell is its easy to cast and can make you negate shooting/magic casualties with ease. Forces your oppenet to really focus fire.

Chris_
13-04-2011, 00:03
That's when you switch to+ 1 attack or kb. The benefit of the movement spell is its easy to cast and can make you negate shooting/magic casualties with ease. Forces your oppenet to really focus fire.Yes, this I agree with :D The 5+ Ward works as well!

VoodooJanus
13-04-2011, 00:12
Are you kidding me?! This lore looks amazing! Everything in it can be boosted to affect a large number of units. Smiting will almost assuredly double the shots of the whole TK army, not to mention the extra attacks. And oh yeah, to top that off, the TK lore attribute makes all targeted units regain an average of 3 wounds per turn.

Yes, these big AoE spells are hard to get off, but they look amazing. I'd be happy if I was a TK player.

TheKingInYellow
13-04-2011, 01:04
The best thing about this lore is that everything is worth dispel dice to your opponent.

Cast the KB spell on a unit nowhere near combat. Sure the KB effect doesn't do much but it might bring back 4 models.

Throw +1 attack on your Liche Priest with some spare dice, it's still a heal spell.

TK generals should be thrilled with this lore!

EDMM
13-04-2011, 03:33
Best lore ever for the army.

In combination with Light, the army is unstoppable.

I run a quite successful VC army with 2 Vampire Lords with +2 dice each and the Lore of Light, a Gaziillion skeletons and the Helm of Commandment.

Tomb Kings will have cheaper skeletons, Helm built into all their characters, a better lore to combine with Light, and enough +dice from Caskets and Heirotitans to give them some great casting. My projected Tomb Kings army will whip my Vampire army.

Urgat
13-04-2011, 03:55
My projected Tomb Kings army will whip my Vampire army.

Yeah, egyptians were slave drivers to the bone after all.

Kamenwati
13-04-2011, 09:40
It'll depend on if we can repeat cast the lore or not. If we can then it'll be fine. If not then taking multiple casters of the lore will have diminishing returns and you'll be better off taking at least one other caster of the Lore of Light.

A simple, effective and fluffy way to make TK magic feel a little more like the old style would have been casting like Warrior Priests do but eh, can't change it now. That or make it so we cannot Miscast/Irresistible Force. Eh, too easy.

Chris_
13-04-2011, 09:57
It'll depend on if we can repeat cast the lore or not. If we can then it'll be fine. If not then taking multiple casters of the lore will have diminishing returns and you'll be better off taking at least one other caster of the Lore of Light.

A simple, effective and fluffy way to make TK magic feel a little more like the old style would have been casting like Warrior Priests do but eh, can't change it now. That or make it so we cannot Miscast/Irresistible Force. Eh, too easy.One Wizard is good, two is better but three wizards with Lore of Nehekhara is probably too much if they aren't all level 2. If you want to go all out on magic then go for 1 Lvl 4 and 1 Lvl 2 with Lore of Nehekhara and then 1 Level 3/4 with Light. A casket and Heiro-titan too ofc.

Spiney Norman
13-04-2011, 11:04
The spells themselves are fairly good, its certainly a massive improvement over the little waaagh! lore from the O&G book but if I'm honest I am a little concerned with the way TK magic as a whole has gone. I appreciate that it was necessary for them to bring it in line with the rest of the game, but I really wish they had de-coupled crumbling from the death of the hierophant.

The reality is I will want to be bringing a L4 wizard to the table if I want any chance of casting spells in 8E, if, as with the previous edition your hierophant has to be the most senior wizard then miscasts become a big problem.

I have to cast a 16+ spell just to make my army march, even assuming an average roll with a L4 I am going to need at least 4 dice to make the attempt (on an average WoM roll thats over half of my PD), which gives me something like a 1/12 chance of miscasting every time I cast the spell.

Add to that the fact that the army crumbles if the hierophant dies and you could easily lose your entire army from a single bad miscast result, and while I know there is a horrifcally overpriced item (earthing rod) than could potentiall save my priest from his first bad miscast, I'm not sure I want to burn a precious arcane slot on an item that I might well not need to mitigate a crippling problem that other armies don't have to deal with.

From what we've heard so far does anyone think that Tomb Kings might have the potential to go magic light in this edition, perhaps 2 L2 mages and focus on the more fastmoving elements in the army list like chariots and cavalry?

decker_cky
13-04-2011, 14:06
One Wizard is good, two is better but three wizards with Lore of Nehekhara is probably too much if they aren't all level 2. If you want to go all out on magic then go for 1 Lvl 4 and 1 Lvl 2 with Lore of Nehekhara and then 1 Level 3/4 with Light. A casket and Heiro-titan too ofc.

Three L2's with Nehekhara seem like a pretty solid build. Ideally you have 3 of the signature spell (it will get dispelled) and at least 2 other augments. People with only 1 Nehekhara will be playing a half speed army, which will leave them hurting.

edit: Spiney - why would your hierophant need to be a L4? Take a low level hierophant and don't cast much with them (2 dice on the sig spell each turn at most). Have another L4 and do the big casting with that wizard.

Falkman
13-04-2011, 14:15
edit: Spiney - why would your hierophant need to be a L4? Take a low level hierophant and don't cast much with them (2 dice on the sig spell each turn at most). Have another L4 and do the big casting with that wizard.
Because rumours imply that the hierophant has to be the wizard with the highest wizard level.

Leogun_91
13-04-2011, 14:19
Because rumours imply that the hierophant has to be the wizard with the highest wizard level.
Would that mean you can take a tomb king with the hat and he would be allowed to be the hierophant if you don't have high liche priests.

Falkman
13-04-2011, 14:23
Would that mean you can take a tomb king with the hat and he would be allowed to be the hierophant if you don't have high liche priests.
No, the Liche with the highest level has to be the hierophant, my bad.

drear
13-04-2011, 14:25
the topic title is abitodd as you HAVE to take the book lore,its not a eitehr or choice.

for an army that cannot march, having alore that gives you an extra move is an obvious choice to want! with the lore attribute of adding wounds/troops back.and access to spells to give multiple shots/attacks itsgoing to be rather epic!

id go lvl 4 with the tombking lore and a lvl 2 with light alvl 1with death.

you can get off the movment spellon the lvl 4 with ease. get amazing initiative /ws boosts from light and then any debuff/assasin spellswith the lvl 1.

Stymie Jackson
13-04-2011, 14:38
The only spell you really want outside of Nekharan magic is Doom and Darkness. Combo that with fear/terror on many armies and your SSC. I think the TK lore covers most of the needs of light and death anyway (ok, no sniping, but do you really need the extra buff spells and Pha's protection with your war machine killing abilitiy? Really need, not 'would be nice to have').

Of course, it also gives variety against your normal opponenets, not always having to use just one lore.

Being able to 'spam' lower power version of augments might be very useful. Instead of going for high cost AOE all the time (risking miscasts and lowering total number of spells cast) hitting multiple 2 dice spells might actually be the way to go very often.

Leogun_91
13-04-2011, 14:53
Following this thread a little I started to wonder, will anyone bother with the lore of death for them, everyone says how much they will use light and Nehekaran but there is no love of death.

Bac5665
13-04-2011, 14:55
The spells themselves are fairly good, its certainly a massive improvement over the little waaagh! lore from the O&G book but if I'm honest I am a little concerned with the way TK magic as a whole has gone. I appreciate that it was necessary for them to bring it in line with the rest of the game, but I really wish they had de-coupled crumbling from the death of the hierophant.

The reality is I will want to be bringing a L4 wizard to the table if I want any chance of casting spells in 8E, if, as with the previous edition your hierophant has to be the most senior wizard then miscasts become a big problem.

I have to cast a 16+ spell just to make my army march, even assuming an average roll with a L4 I am going to need at least 4 dice to make the attempt (on an average WoM roll thats over half of my PD), which gives me something like a 1/12 chance of miscasting every time I cast the spell.

Add to that the fact that the army crumbles if the hierophant dies and you could easily lose your entire army from a single bad miscast result, and while I know there is a horrifcally overpriced item (earthing rod) than could potentiall save my priest from his first bad miscast, I'm not sure I want to burn a precious arcane slot on an item that I might well not need to mitigate a crippling problem that other armies don't have to deal with.

From what we've heard so far does anyone think that Tomb Kings might have the potential to go magic light in this edition, perhaps 2 L2 mages and focus on the more fastmoving elements in the army list like chariots and cavalry?

I think you just laid out the reasons you can go magic light with TK. The risks of high magic are just too high, all for the benefit of being not quite as good as other armies.

I'd give real though to just avoiding the units that need magic to function, like skeletons and tomb guard, and use units like chariots and the sphinxes that can survive without. That way, you have a disadvantage to be sure, but you know that going in and can plan knowing it, rather than being horribly dependent on an army effect that makes the 7E animosity rule look overpowered.

GodlessM
13-04-2011, 14:59
No, I was joking that the signature spell is a healing spell. I know what the spell is but considering the ability to heal all nearby units d3+1 wounds, I can see using it primarily as healing spell. I think many people underestimate it.

Ah fair enough. To be honest you are probably right, but only in certain circumstances.


The aoe version would still affect them, if cast on say... a lone ushabti wandering around in the middle of your units.

No it wouldn't as the spell only effects unengaged units.


Yeah, egyptians were slave drivers to the bone after all.

Oh ho, I see what you did there :D


and while I know there is a horrifcally overpriced item (earthing rod) than could potentiall save my priest from his first bad miscast

How is 25pts overpriced to re-roll miscast result? And why do people keep acting like the Hierophant has more of a chance to miscast than any other wizard. It has a bigger effect on us if he dies, however he is just as likely to miscast as other army wizards (maybe less because we need to focus on more lower casting than less high castings like everyone else) and even then only has a 26% chance to roll Detonation, and then a further 50% chance he still might not die.

Spiney Norman
13-04-2011, 15:37
Because rumours imply that the hierophant has to be the wizard with the highest wizard level.




How is 25pts overpriced to re-roll miscast result? And why do people keep acting like the Hierophant has more of a chance to miscast than any other wizard. It has a bigger effect on us if he dies, however he is just as likely to miscast as other army wizards (maybe less because we need to focus on more lower casting than less high castings like everyone else) and even then only has a 26% chance to roll Detonation, and then a further 50% chance he still might not die.

Because its a one use item, if it were not it would be fairly priced. At the end of the day the ONLY result you will elect to reroll is the one that kills the wizard, and its not like the earthing rods allows you to ignore the miscast, you still suffer the effects, most of which are barely better than detonation.

A L4 hierophant is not more likely to miscast than any other L4 wizard, but he is much more likely to miscast than a L2 wizard (hence my question whether I could take a L4 and a L2 and have the L4 as the hiero) because he'll be throwing more dice at more spells. I don't think I've gone a game yet with a L4 without him miscasting at least once, of course with my Slann list thats usually an advantage.

I guess I just resent the auto-lose possibility

IcedCrow
13-04-2011, 15:39
It's part of the risk you take with taking a L4 wizard. If you are afraid of the *pop* then don't use as many dice or don't use them as much.

Until I read the book though I don't know how I'll use mine.

GodlessM
13-04-2011, 15:52
most of which are barely better than detonation.

So you are shouting doom-and-gloom about how bad it is to Detonate your Hierophant yet you also say simply losing a few Skeletons/Arhcers/whatever isn't much better? :wtf:

Furthermore, so what if the Earthing Rod is a one use only item? If you think its needs to be more for 25pts (broken much?) you must roll an unnatural amount of miscasts.

decker_cky
13-04-2011, 15:56
It's not even that much worse than any other army losing their L4 wizard tbh. Most units should be within the general's Ld10 bubble, or have high leadership themselves. Even basic skeletons were boosted to Ld5 meaning you lose 2 less models per turn.

Also, a L4 hierophant should rarely use more than 3 dice, so miscasting shouldn't be a huge threat. Earthing rod should be enough.

Lord Inquisitor
13-04-2011, 16:08
sorry, my mistake. i did indeed miss the armour modification. you are completely right.
No worries...


but i still disagree about the effects of the spell. purple sun can kill models that cause massive problems. the S4 attack does, what many other things do as well.
Nothing out there can take out 2/3 of a skaven or elf army in one go. This is damage on an unprecidented scale.

Purple Sun is so maligned because it can do disproportionate damage to certain expensive units (which have low initiative). You really take notice when it wipes out a greater daemon or unit of orcs or ogres.

However, there are plenty of armies that don't fear the Purple Sun. Warriors and Elves really don't care much about it. The S4 spell is going to really hurt horde armies and elite T3 ones too.

I think the reason it doesn't seem that bad is because the damage scales properly - it'll butcher cheap low toughness/armour units but not hurt expensive ones, while the Psun can be horribly unfair against extremely tough and expensive units. But the S4 vortex can and will do more damage against more armies than the Psun - and yet Tomb King players are claiming it to be entirely useless? :eyebrows:


ps: i miss my orcs in your list of the units, that are vulnerable to purple sun. and as we are discussing TK, shouldn t we also add in the undead?
Orcs are hurt more by Psun, but gobbos by the S4. Undead are affected about the same, apart from those Grave Guard bunkers, which fear the Purple Sun.

To do a comprehensive list:

Armies that fear Purple Sun more:
Dwarfs
Ogre Kingdoms
Lizardmen
Orcs
Nurgle Daemons
Brettonians (except peasants)

Armies that are affected pretty much equally:
Tomb Kings
Vampire Counts
Other Daemons

Armies that fear a S4 vortex more:
Goblins
Skaven
High Elves
Dark Elves
Empire (except Steam Tanks)
Wood Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Slaanesh daemons
Beastmen

Even if you count that "pretty much equal" camp as part of the Purple Sun camp because it ignores magic resistance, etc, you still have the S4 vortex being better against 50% of the armies out there.

One last point that's just occurred to me and actually terrifies me a little: This army has access to both Purple Sun and this new S4 vortex. With some careful caster choice it may be possible to make it likely to get one spell or the other, depending on what arcane dohickies the army book brings. Let's say you have 2 Level 4 casters. The probability of getting the spell you want is high as any doubles let you choose: Facing Lizardmen or Ogres? Your Death mage can shoot for Purple Sun. Facing Skaven or Elves? Get the S4 vortex on your other caster. Nasty.

decker_cky
13-04-2011, 19:32
Everyone who's about equal should fear purple sun more because of the extra dice. Beastmen should be in that group because it's an I3, T4 armour including multiwound models.

There's also special cases which is really the reason to take purple sun. Steam tank and Hydra make it worthwhile against those armies.

Regarding the double vortex - I think it'll be worthwhile for any sit back and shoot type armies. Take a few shots early game at the lower castings of the spells until you get a good roll (aka - more than 6" out from your army :P). Let them float out in no-man's land while you shoot them up, forcing opponents to dispel them. With the casket, you should have enough dice to do this most turns (4 dice per spell from each L4 is pretty dependable).

Tokamak
13-04-2011, 19:35
I have a horde army and I really can't wait to see that spell lay waste to it. :D

Maoriboy007
13-04-2011, 20:12
The issue withthe lore is that undead ingeneral have basically had any advantages stripped to the bone, and TK even more so, and the none of the negatives have been removed. Generally undead could compensate in some ways through a hefty dose o magic. This was especially true for TKs, but the TK magic lore - if you are very lucky will just bring them level with a baseline army - if you get to cst an abnormally high number of spells, and if you dont blow up your wizard, in which case its game over. And the sad fact is you will likely miscast at least once because your heirophant must consistantly cast spells to keep the army running.