PDA

View Full Version : Most broken 2000pt list you can make



vodrake
10-04-2011, 21:24
One of my friends at my local GW asked me what the most broken list I could come up with is. I figured it would be daemons, then came out with this. What do you think?


Herald of Khorne, Armour of Khorne, Firestorm Blade - 140
Herald of Khorne, Armour of Khorne, Firestorm Blade - 140

Bloodletters x65, Banner, Champion, Banner of Endless War - 829
Bloodletters x65, Banner, Champion, Banner of Endless War - 829
Furies x5 - 60

Quite simpe list, as you can probably tell its designed to deny points. It has no magic at all, mainly becuase to get it I would need horrors, which would give the list a weak point.

In my oppinion there is nothing you can take that would kill one of those units during a game, without giving away more points. If you somehow ignored both units and just kiled the furies, you dont get the needed 100pts to win. And lets face it, your not going to be able to ignore the units.

The weak points in the list are actually the heralds, but again, anything that you could send at a herald to kill it, would soon die due to the rest of the unit.

What do you think? Can you come up with something that would beat this list at 2k that would still be competetive against other armies?

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 21:46
Tough? Hell yeah. Broken? No. Redirect one large unit and throw everything at the other. Use magic (which you have no defense against) to turn the scales of the combat. Rinse and repeat.

I could see a nice Enfeebling Foe/Dwellers combo ripping this army apart very quickly.

astorre
10-04-2011, 21:50
I'd say you went with the wrong army. Skaven w/ 2 Hell Pits would be worse, with a bunch of slaves and a little bell to ding. Plague magic would tear that list up. I'm pretty sure that with Empire I could punch a hole in that with enough mortars. It'd be pretty hard to miss.

GodlessM
10-04-2011, 21:52
I'd say you went with the wrong army. Skaven w/ 2 Hell Pits would be worse, with a bunch of slaves and a little bell to ding. Plague magic would tear that list up. I'm pretty sure that with Empire I could punch a hole in that with enough mortars. It'd be pretty hard to miss.

Oh but the fun you'd have. 'So I roll scatter. It scatters 10"...direct hit' :D

astorre
10-04-2011, 21:54
Oh but the fun you'd have. 'So I roll scatter. It scatters 10"...direct hit' :D

Haha thats right! That actually made me laugh.

vodrake
11-04-2011, 00:28
Wow. I have never seen anybody with an army that has both shadow and life. High elves, empire and lizards have access to both those lores. Lizards cant have it at this level, high elves and empire might possibly go for it, assuming they roll both spells. At which point I stop one of the spells a turn and the combo is useless.

For the big magic spells, dwellers im S5, purple sun and pit im I4 and it doesnt hit all the unit. Plague does the best but ive MR1 so I get a 4+ ward.

Hellpits get slaughtered by this list. I ignore 1/3 of the wounds they cause becuase of the ward, and it dies in one round of combat. Unless you charge into my flank, in which case its two rounds. That said, with the extra D6 charge range, my average is 15" so decent odds of me being in combat from turn 2.

With the slave thing, if I see a bunch of slave units, I would deploy 6 wide and 11 deep. They will not be holding me up.

The empire list with mortars is your best bet. They can rack up a serious amount of damage, but again the list is gonna be in combat at turn 3 at the latest. Probably turn 2, and the only thing empire have which can finish off a unit are flagelants (which are pretty good) except against letters they hit on 5's, go after them, and are killed on 2's all the time with no saves. Also with just three units (four for characters) i'll be getting +1 to go first which means I have a better that average chance of going first.

astorre
11-04-2011, 00:41
Wow. I have never seen anybody with an army that has both shadow and life. High elves, empire and lizards have access to both those lores. Lizards cant have it at this level, high elves and empire might possibly go for it, assuming they roll both spells. At which point I stop one of the spells a turn and the combo is useless.

For the big magic spells, dwellers im S5, purple sun and pit im I4 and it doesnt hit all the unit. Plague does the best but ive MR1 so I get a 4+ ward.

Hellpits get slaughtered by this list. I ignore 1/3 of the wounds they cause becuase of the ward, and it dies in one round of combat. Unless you charge into my flank, in which case its two rounds. That said, with the extra D6 charge range, my average is 15" so decent odds of me being in combat from turn 2.

With the slave thing, if I see a bunch of slave units, I would deploy 6 wide and 11 deep. They will not be holding me up.

The empire list with mortars is your best bet. They can rack up a serious amount of damage, but again the list is gonna be in combat at turn 3 at the latest. Probably turn 2, and the only thing empire have which can finish off a unit are flagelants (which are pretty good) except against letters they hit on 5's, go after them, and are killed on 2's all the time with no saves. Also with just three units (four for characters) i'll be getting +1 to go first which means I have a better that average chance of going first.

Yeah defiently, its a tough list. I still think though that as far as most "broken", Skaven could take that all day long.
Its the High Elves that Godless was talking about (Im pretty sure). They take Teclis or Archmage, then the Lv2 with shadow and some item they got that lets them pick their own spells. Not having the +4 to dispel will make it way harder on you as well to stop their spells.
Im not gonna lie, I'd basically let one of your units eat something of mine up so that you would have to persue once I broke (because of hatred) and mean while the other unit I would hit it with as many mortars as I could. With 60 guys in the unit I'd probably just cast Dweller's on you anyways, maybe I could take out your Herald and you will still lose like 10 or so. Hopefully you'd only have like 20 or 30 left, and I'd flank you because I'd have more units. Your other block I'd spend a lot of time running from lol, cause once I got the one the chances of you being able to come back with only one block and tie it up are pretty slim.

GodlessM
11-04-2011, 00:42
Wow. I have never seen anybody with an army that has both shadow and life. High elves, empire and lizards have access to both those lores. Lizards cant have it at this level, high elves and empire might possibly go for it, assuming they roll both spells. At which point I stop one of the spells a turn and the combo is useless.

Most High Elf lists take Level 4 Life and Level 2 Shadow with Seerstaff. They also take Banner of Sorcery. They roll up 7 dice on average and add another 2 on average giving them 9 on average while you have a paltry 4. He gets +4 to cast and you have no bonus to dispel. He chucks 4 dice at Enfeebling Foe, and on average rolls he beats you since ye have the same amount of dice. You then have nothing to stop Dwellers, and even if you keep your dice for that likely won't stop it. After that you can say bye-bye to 30 of your Bloodletters in one spell; 33% chance the Herald goes bye-bye too.


That said, with the extra D6 charge range, my average is 15" so decent odds of me being in combat from turn 2.

That's assuming the opponent is stupid enough to deploy anywhere but the back of their deployment zone.

Gaargod
11-04-2011, 11:01
No magic defence means the list just isn't going to work.

Ignoring super killy combos (i.e. the aforementioned life + shadow shenanigans), a few augments/hexes will still leave you losing combats. Hell, shadow by itself will screw you over. Any slann will have a field day making immortal TG with raising and slowly bash your face in.

Its not bad, but adding in a herald of tzeentch with scroll and lore of life, then using reformation stupid rules abuses to put him in the 2nd rank and thus be untouchable... That presents a lot more problems.

KimikoPT
11-04-2011, 11:08
LOL

Speaking about empire, i made this list yesterday (itīs 2250 btw):

general of empire
lvl 4
bsb
5 engineers with pigeons
2x44 xbows
3 mortars
2 hellblasters
2 rockets

BigbyWolf
11-04-2011, 12:05
LOL

Speaking about empire, i made this list yesterday (itīs 2250 btw):

general of empire
lvl 4
bsb
5 engineers with pigeons
2x44 xbows
3 mortars
2 hellblasters
2 rockets

Nice in theory, but as soon as something gets over to your side of the board, it'll pretty much be game-over.

GodlessM
11-04-2011, 12:14
Not the place Kimiko; this is vodrake's thread.

KimikoPT
11-04-2011, 12:23
Not the place Kimiko; this is vodrake's thread.

Yes i know and sorry, but as he spoke of playing against empire, i posted that list here, as it could be a good response (and also a broken list as he said) to his list. Sorry for the offtopic (more or less) :)

EDIT

Sorry again, it was astorre who mentioned Empire. :(

StormCrow
11-04-2011, 13:26
It's a scary prospect, no doubt, but definitely not unbeatable. As Godless M suggested the lore of shadow alone could make a mockery of both those units. And if you happen to fight High Elves your Jugger heralds will become almost useless in combat thanks to dragon armour.
One of my regular opponents takes a big block of spearelves and a decent portion of shooting that could handle one unit, and he could use eagles, reavers, white lions and/or phoenix guard to handle the other.

Still I'd be interested to see how it went in a game, and I will concede that it would rip apart Bretonnians :p. Let us know how it work outs for you.

fusionmonkey
11-04-2011, 20:27
in a tourniment i would just snipe the 2 characters with death magic cannons or sacrificial units and kill furries then run arould being happy with my 350 vps:shifty:. and if i sacrifce a cheep unit to get rid of your extra d6 charge i will

but yes a hard army but as you only have 2 units its just waiting to be out manouverd or run around

thesheriff
12-04-2011, 10:14
It's illegal. No double daemon banners anymore.

It's a tough list. And the benefits to dual hatred bloodletter horde are fantastic at 2k.

But, 65 is pointless. I run a 40 and a 30. The bigger usually hits at 25-30 models, the smaller usually full.

If anything, it's worse. Stone throwers, mortars would find it hard to miss. And hellstrom, although with the ward you statistically ignore 1/3 of shooting, you'll still lose allot of models gone. Keeping them slightly smaller will hinder gunlines more.

And 12 Flamers and an extra fury unit is exactly the cost of 40 bloodletters, which would still hive you 2 45 strong units, some good shooting, an extra screen unit.

Thesheriff

calnen
12-04-2011, 11:21
And 12 Flamers and an extra fury unit is exactly the cost of 40 bloodletters, which would still hive you 2 45 strong units, some good shooting, an extra screen unit.

Thesheriff

Isn't his point that, with only the 2 units, he won't be able to give away any vps? If you add more supporting units, you give the opponent something to kill.

BigbyWolf
12-04-2011, 11:34
Isn't his point that, with only the 2 units, he won't be able to give away any vps? If you add more supporting units, you give the opponent something to kill.

It's kinda six and two threes really...on the one hand it's hard to get VPs out of the list, but if you do manage to pick up a few points (characters, objectives, etc), you then just have to beat a tactical retreat for the rest of the game, and two blocks aren't too hard to avoid.

thesheriff
12-04-2011, 13:39
Isn't his point that, with only the 2 units, he won't be able to give away any vps? If you add more supporting units, you give the opponent something to kill.

Points denial does not work if your spending more than 100pts on relatively fragile characters.

No matter how big your units are, cannon sniping and death magic will scupper you.

Plus, Flamers have two wounds, and T4. And with skirmish, can stay out of trouble effectively.

Slayerthane
12-04-2011, 17:27
Herald of Khorne, Armour of Khorne, Firestorm Blade - 140
Herald of Khorne, Armour of Khorne, Firestorm Blade - 140

Bloodletters x65, Banner, Champion, Banner of Endless War - 829
Bloodletters x65, Banner, Champion, Banner of Endless War - 829
Furies x5 - 60

Aren't these duplicate magic items? If so, this is an illegal list.

vodrake
12-04-2011, 20:26
They arent magic items, so no. Unless they faq'd daemons to change it, dont play them to be honest so I haven't checked.

Not sure why everybody thinks the two heralds are on juggers though. So cannon sniping doesn't work (which is why they aren't on juggers).

Don't mind people putting lists in here, feel free, would like to see what other people could make. With that empire list, I dont see anything that can actually finish off a unit.

In fact, that sounds like an idea, can anybody come up with a 2k army list that could beat this (and when you post it explain how it would do it), but also be competetive in general.

Also curious to hear what people think are the top 3 armies at the moment? Also had this discussion with a friend. Excluding this list, I went with dark elves, skaven then vamps.

[edit] Oh, with the high elves, yes models with dragon armour would get a 2+ ward from the heralds. Dont see the knights very often and they would die horribly to the rest of the unit, the characters I would just not hit, and attack/killing blow them with the rest of the unit aswell.

GodlessM
12-04-2011, 20:38
Unless they faq'd daemons to change it, dont play them to be honest so I haven't checked.

The Heralds are fine but now that I look at it for some reason the Daemon FAQ changed Daemonic Icons to be Magic Standards, meaning only one of each per army.

thesheriff
12-04-2011, 20:45
Aren't these duplicate magic items? If so, this is an illegal list.

The stuff on the heralds, no. There gifts, and can be taken multiple times. A bit like vampiric powers.

But the banners, unfortunately, are now treated like normal banners. So only one permitted.

So, it's half illegal.

@Von drake - cannon sniping still works. If I hit, and you fail your ward and look out sir, you die. Now the odds of that are 1/54. But, that's still a chance.

Plus, I reckon a good quality gunline of the empire or dwarf variety, would reduce you to a relatively paltry size. lots of stone throwers/mortars and S4 Shots will hurt you bad. Even with the ward save, I only statistically have to cause an extra 50% casualties. Which should be easy for an army of 11-17 warmachines depending on the race.

russellmoo
12-04-2011, 20:58
Legality aside-

Skaven have this list beat hands down-

The hardest to beat at 2000k points would have to be something like- (not going to bother with actual lists- this will just convey the idea)

Grey seer on bell-
BSB

40 clanrats/w warpfire thrower
4x60 slaves
2 WLC, 2 Doomwheels


Or- possible better-

A Teclis list

with lots of spears, and 2 small units of swordmasters-

The point really is that the truly tough 8th ed lists have ridiculously good magic, and large hordes of troops, and can drop large templates at will-

fusionmonkey
12-04-2011, 21:55
your same list with daemonetts

and a herald of tzeentch with shadow for mind razored attacks on daemonetts going first hitting on 3s rerolling wounding on 2s with 2 attacks a piece. (or if i cant mind razor minus your strength or toughness)

in short a better version of your list. just because you have no magic defense.

vodrake
12-04-2011, 23:24
I dont know why people keep saying I have "no magic defence". A tzeentch herald gives +2 to dispell. Oh and maybe a scroll, its not a huge amount though is it? I still have the same number of dice.

The daemonettes are worse becuase they are st3 sohalf of them die to dwellers, also they dont get MR1 so more die to plague aswell and the heralds are easier to kill. Also you cant rely upon magic to work.

So the skaven list, you actually have about 400 more points, but how would this list win? What would you do during the game that would kill one of the units?

myrsnipe
12-04-2011, 23:28
I'd take High Elves with a single huge horde core, bsb, and a lvl 4 life with folding fortress. Pop into the fortress and you'll never beat your way trough. Sprinkle with lvl 2's with various augments/hexes for good measure

thesheriff
13-04-2011, 07:09
I'd take High Elves with a single huge horde core, bsb, and a lvl 4 life with folding fortress. Pop into the fortress and you'll never beat your way trough. Sprinkle with lvl 2's with various augments/hexes for good measure

Ok, he'll put both the heralds in one unit, and march up and charge. With S7 flaming, they should cause enough casualties to make you lose on there own.

vodrake
13-04-2011, 08:21
Plus you have to have three units in 8th ed. Besides, if it came to it, I would accept a draw because you aren't gonna win either whille your sat in there.

Tallopolis
13-04-2011, 08:43
My List

Life Teclis

Dragon Mage Lv.2
- Silver Wand
- Ring of fury

43 LSG
- SB & M
- Gleaming Pennant

7 Swordsmasters
- SB
7 Swordsmasters
- SB

5 Dragon Princes
- Command
- Banner of Sorcery

1 RBT

Haven't lost yet :D
I reckon this would give you a run for your money.
The Buffed LSG (+4T, Regen, +1 to wound, Shield of thorns) and teclis took a frontal charge from Bloodthirster + 4 Bloodcrushers +Herald on jugger + Skulltaker on Jugger and won in 2 rounds (they challenge, move teclis to the back due to no champ)

and swordsmasters punch a decent hole in Bloodletters (14 attacks hitting on 3s re-rollable, wounding on 2s) for 105pts :D

Syndtristleit
13-04-2011, 08:46
High Elves with blocks of spears and swords with lvl 4 life or shadow or even beasts (transformation of kardon) wouldnt have such a hard time winning against you.

fusionmonkey
13-04-2011, 14:01
you wont have the same dispell dice as my power dice i will have at least 1 more and a +2 to cast will ensure i get my chosen spell of no probs.

Zeroth
13-04-2011, 20:18
WoC's slaanesh spell that's got a 24" range and kills you on a T test put a serious dent in my 50-man Bloodletter unit. I can imagine it doing nasty things to this list..

thesheriff
13-04-2011, 20:33
you wont have the same dispell dice as my power dice i will have at least 1 more and a +2 to cast will ensure i get my chosen spell of no probs.

Cool. You can throw 6 dice at the mind razor. I'll throw all mine back. Youl have 2+, so I could get lucky. That's if you want to blow yourself up using that many dice. And if you do, you might lose magic levels, die, take S10 hits.

In short never rely on magic. Because if it screws up, your up **** creak without a paddle!

Nathangonmad
13-04-2011, 20:40
Any list with Teclis in lol ;)

GodlessM
13-04-2011, 20:43
My List

Life Teclis

Dragon Mage Lv.2
- Silver Wand
- Ring of fury

43 LSG
- SB & M
- Gleaming Pennant

7 Swordsmasters
- SB
7 Swordsmasters
- SB

5 Dragon Princes
- Command
- Banner of Sorcery

1 RBT

Haven't lost yet :D


This is even worse than his list. Turn 1 against anything with Life or against Chaos Warriors; Dwellers on 6 dice; you lose.

Sappysid101
13-04-2011, 20:57
In my oppinion there is nothing you can take that would kill one of those units during a game, without giving away more points

Gateway :) in my experiance, the more hardcore the target is and the cockier my opponent gets the more likely it is for me to roll 11 or 12 :P

- Sid

Malorian
13-04-2011, 21:01
I would think the best of the best would be a high elf list with a single maxed out elite unit backed up with the immune to magic banner and other characters, and then a spear horde to fill in core.

Tallopolis
13-04-2011, 22:32
This is even worse than his list. Turn 1 against anything with Life or against Chaos Warriors; Dwellers on 6 dice; you lose.

you only get 1 shot at that though... if you don't IF on turn 1 you pretty much lose whoever you are, especially if teclis's scroll of 'you can never cast that again' works.

there's a reason I've had 24 wins in a row with this...
the same reason I don't use it in friendly games...

vodrake
13-04-2011, 23:52
there's a reason I've had 24 wins in a row with this...
the same reason I don't use it in friendly games...


Im sorry, but with the exception of teclis and the banner of sorcery, your list isnt that good. I dont know who you play, I assume no dark elves because units of 7 swordmasters are just asking to be shot by repeater crossbows.

The immune to magic banner can be quite nice, particularly if you take a couple of cheap elf hero's to stand in the front rank so the BSB can sit in the second rank. Think you might struggle against some skaven, but it can be quite a good army.

Yeah, gateway could potentially remove a unit, i'll take the 1 in 12 chance. Well, not me personally becuase this isnt the type of list I play with, but..yeah.

Im not TOO familiar with the woc magic (well the non tzeentch spells anyway), I doubt its take a toughness test or die though. Is it something like take a T check and if you fail take some S5 hits and keep testing? Or is that a daemon one? Either way, got a 4+ ward against it so...

<sigh> I miss the good old days of red fire, yellow fire, blue fire etc.

thesheriff
14-04-2011, 22:23
This is even worse than his list. Turn 1 against anything with Life or against Chaos Warriors; Dwellers on 6 dice; you lose.

I think the moral of the story is a balanced list usually makes for a good list.