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High speed low drag
12-04-2011, 14:42
HI seers, I have fallen in love with the chaos god tzeentch and am planning to do an all tzeentch army, just thougt I would find out how thousand sons are viewed by people as they will be the mainstay of my army

Zweischneid
12-04-2011, 15:03
With Thousand Sons, do you mean Rubic Marines? If yes:

The good:
- AP3 Bolters
- 4++
- S&P/Relentless (you can sometimes surprise your opponent with a charge after rapid fire, though generally CC is ill-advised)
- Fearless (it's not ATSKNF, but hey)


The bad:
- Pricy (especially with the Sorcerer)
- AP3 Bolters vs. boxes: little Tank-busting ability (how do you get the Marines out of their boxes?).
- AP3 Bolters vs. cover (how do you get the Marines out of cover? Lash is great doing that, but if you do Tzeentsch-only, that'd be out).
- 4++ and cover (since cc. isn't your main worry, and cover mostly plentiful, 4++ isn't THAT great)

ChrisMurray
12-04-2011, 16:33
My thoughts, great theme, great models, great colours, great background. The bad side is the rules. They are very expensive. You can be looking at over 300 pts for a squad. They are slow and not very good in close combat. Against hordes they are no better than a standard marine, but will be out numbered by more than a standard marine.

On the whole, if you like the theme\background\models (hopefully FW will do some kits in after the next two books they've doing) and only want to play for fun (I say "only for fun" I mean non-tournament\ultra-competitive) go for it. If you're wanting to win tournaments or play against Waac players you will have a tough time of it.

Carlosophy
12-04-2011, 16:47
Thousand Sons are great, but you have to do a few 'un-sheep-like' things and take a few unpopular units to be effective.

Lesser Daemons are your friends. With an Icon you can summon them where you need them to be and as a counter-attack unit small squads can tie up assault units long enough for you to shoot them to death next turn.

Lash not fluffy? Ahriman has it, so why not anyone else? Its a great power to pull squads into rapid fire range and out of cover. I saw Grey Knights vs TS the other day at my LGS and they destroyed the GKs with shooting.

dugaal
12-04-2011, 17:00
Zweischneid has all the details on the Rubic Marines covered.

If you want to offset their limitations but keep thematic, look at non-Rubic units that you can 'counts-as' to balance your army (dont try to go all Rubic! too specialized). Examples:

Obliterators: mini-DP style Terminator Sorcerers shooting with Magic.

Raptors: Aspiring sorcerers riding Discs of Tzeentch for some FA.

Daemon Prince: Staple of Chaos armies, easy to theme. Because Champions are valuable and pricey for Rubics, GD are not as points efficient, summoning wise. Shouldn't stop you from using the Lord of Change Model for a DP.

Defiler: Recent thread by Latro (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300043) has a cool idea to use the new Tomb Kings War Sphinx! that would look awesome IMO

The options above are less efficient if they have the option for an expensive Icon (DP, Raptors), which you may or may not want to take depending on how far you take the Tzeentch theme. If so, use more impossible-to-mark units like oblits, or vehicles to avoid the obligation for marks, keeping your points down.

GL!

Valek
12-04-2011, 18:39
My creed when playing 1K sons is this frame:

Deamon prince(s)

Reapercide considered as oracles of tzeentch or just hired guns

2(+) units of 1K sons 8 guys with sorcerer, wind or bolt in a rhino

Raptors just 5 with 2 melta for tank hunting

Obliterators as much as you can pump in
Vindicators with deamonic possession always use in pairs

For bigger games:

9 chosen with 4 melta and fist in rhino
Greater deamon, bloody expensive though

But count yourself on a steep learning curve

my 9 cents

Charistoph
12-04-2011, 22:36
Note that it is possible and legal to have a Tzeentch Chaos Marine army without Rubrics, so keep that in mind as you plan.

Valek
12-04-2011, 22:55
yeah but giving marines a mark of tzeentch sucks direly...

Mannimarco
12-04-2011, 22:57
And if you aint a Rubric you ant a Thousand Sun

virusscan123
13-04-2011, 00:58
Awesome theme, but when it comes to tabletop...not too viable

Mini77
13-04-2011, 01:56
Assaulting with Thousands Sons isn't a good idea since you'll always be striking last.

DreadArchon
13-04-2011, 02:59
Thousand sons suffer badly in CC but that is not what they are for.

I have had more luck with foot squads since a rhino reduces their firing capacity. Since you are relentless you can really dish out damage with AP3 bolters and nasty tzeentch psychic powers.

Excessus
13-04-2011, 04:52
The rhino helps the 1k sons in getting into rapid fire/wind range and to get to those objectives quickly. Also it's something the enemy needs to take care of before he gets to shoot at your 1k sons. Since dakka is their biggest vulnerability, you like for them to avoid that as much as possible...

Even if the enemy marines are in cover, their bolters still reduce the save from 3+ to 4+, so there is still a benefit. However, against armies with worse saves like imps or daemons, their ap3 bolters are pretty much wasted...their relentlessness however, is quite nice! :)

Chrysis
13-04-2011, 06:02
Thousand Sons are great, but you have to do a few 'un-sheep-like' things and take a few unpopular units to be effective.

Lesser Daemons are your friends. With an Icon you can summon them where you need them to be and as a counter-attack unit small squads can tie up assault units long enough for you to shoot them to death next turn.

Lash not fluffy? Ahriman has it, so why not anyone else? Its a great power to pull squads into rapid fire range and out of cover. I saw Grey Knights vs TS the other day at my LGS and they destroyed the GKs with shooting.

Ahriman doesn't have Lash of Submission. He has all the powers except Lash and Nurgle's Rot.

Valek
13-04-2011, 06:54
Assaulting with Thousands Sons isn't a good idea since you'll always be striking last.

How is that bad? you havent been on the receiving end yet apparantly,

for starters its better then getting charged...
then you take 18 ap3 shots to the chin, no normal trooptype finds this pleasant, not even plaguemarines.
then you rob him of his extra attacks, powerweapons don't mean much as you still have 4+ inv, after that you make some attacks and 4 warptimed forceweapon attacks, I have consistenly beaten units of 10 marines or other non 2+ save units head on...

Valek
13-04-2011, 06:59
Tbh everyone here tells thousand sons are bad, yes they suffer, but every marine player is bloody scared of them, play them defensive and lure your opponent in the open, or open up his tin cans with oblits then bolter/wind them to death, works pretty much every time.

the worst match up's i face atm are dark eldar, orks sometimes (depends on mission), Nids if well built, Mechdar with council, Imperial guard leafblower.

All the rest is quite doable, im starting to experiment with more anti tank and give sorcerers bolt of change to be sure i can crack those av10 and 11 consistenly.

Zweischneid
13-04-2011, 08:29
Lash not fluffy? Ahriman has it, so why not anyone else? Its a great power to pull squads into rapid fire range and out of cover.

Because Ahriman is not Thousand Sons (anymore).

TheLionReturns
13-04-2011, 11:28
The Thousand Sons troops choice suffers from being overpriced, and the increased availability cover saves has reduced their advantages. That said they are resilient out of cover giving more flexibility in where they can move, and have marine killing weapons if they their targets are out of cover.

I would think the key is to ensure you have plenty of anti tank to accompany the thousand sons to get the enemy out of their boxes. Also it is worth noting that they are no better at killing light infantry than any boltgun armed troops, so some way of thinning hordes is also important unless you only face marines.

I think there are two ways to go with an all Tzeentch list. You can either stick rigidly to the rules and only take marked units, or you can choose from the whole list and make up a fluff justification for them.

Regarding Lash, which has been mentioned previously for example, the ability to deceive units into moving where they don't want to go is very fitting of Tzeentch. The extra initiative from the mark of slaanesh can be explained as biomancy (Pavoni Cult), mutation (although the rubric was meant to have stopped this) or bionics.

Similarly the resilience of plague marines can be used to show the presence of a Raptora Cult sorcerer in the ranks and the protection their Kine Shields bring, or the ability for a Pavoni Sorcerer to reknit the flesh of his wounded brothers.

Obliterators meanwhile could perhaps represent Pyrae Cult sorcerers and the various weapon options could represent their many ways of manipulating flames.

The advantages of this approach means you get lots of conversion possibilities to show these varied units if that is an important part of the hobby for you. Although I guess it can get confusing for non-regular opponents.

The Marshel
13-04-2011, 11:44
i've always thought the idea of a thousand sons faction of rubric marines and sorcerers leading a group of "aspiring Chaos space marines" who wish to join the thousand sons proper. the idea would be that the thousand son sorcerers manipulate what they would view as lesser marines to their own cause, leading them to .believe they could join the ranks of the thousand sons, while neglecting to mention exactly what being a rubric marine means. there is probably very little fluff precedence for this, but we do have ahriman who is effectively a thousand sons warband operating outside of the actual legion (or at least afaik, not a huge knowledge of chaos background here). So the idea of a random sorcerer operating to their own agenda isnt that new.

so the idea is to use a thousand son sorcerer lord for the hq and maybe a Tzeentch deamon prince, with 1 or 2 thousand son units, supported with generic csm squads (troops, termies, etc) with the mark of Tzeentch, and perhaps some spawn to represent where these followers really end up

CelestialDragonKing
13-04-2011, 16:09
Ksons was the first chaos army I started to play way back when. Though today I'd still be loyal to Tzeentch, but I'd do a Renegade army of Tz. Maybe with one sorcerer with a retinue of Ksons. I would model a lot of mutations and stuff. I started doing a Pyre army that was going to be Tz themed, but got out of 40k for a long time. DIY armies are much more satisfying for me because I can do what ever I want with them and no one can say crap about it.

Mini77
13-04-2011, 16:41
How is that bad? you havent been on the receiving end yet apparantly,

for starters its better then getting charged...
then you take 18 ap3 shots to the chin, no normal trooptype finds this pleasant, not even plaguemarines.
then you rob him of his extra attacks, powerweapons don't mean much as you still have 4+ inv, after that you make some attacks and 4 warptimed forceweapon attacks, I have consistenly beaten units of 10 marines or other non 2+ save units head on...

It really depends on what you're assaulting and how big that unit is. Against Nids, Orks, Dark Eldar, Harlequins, Blood Angels it really isn't worth attacking and staying far enough back to keep shooting.

As for Plague Marines - Even firing 18 shots into them is only gonna kill a couple of marines. I hate Plague Marines. :p

Garanaul the Black
13-04-2011, 18:39
The rhino helps the 1k sons in getting into rapid fire/wind range and to get to those objectives quickly.


How does Relentless work when in a Rhino? Do I still get a 12 / 24 inch shot out of the top if I move?

If I use a Sorcerer as my HQ, could he replace the one in the unit or would I still be obligated to purchase the Aspirant?

I'm about to finish a unit of them and think I'm going to use them for the first time vs Blood Angels as a counter strike unit, anyone have any suggestions?



Thanks,

G

Charistoph
13-04-2011, 21:40
You still have to have the Aspirant, but if he dies and your Sorc is Tzeentch, then the unit isn't slowed down by it.