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Sarevok
13-04-2011, 20:59
Codex Grey Knights weakened the regular GK joes so they would be feasible as an army, should the same be done to cult Chaos troops? After all they cost more than Grey Knights.
Granted 1ksons and Noise marines may to too expensive anyway.

I mean if Chaos Legions get their own codex (laughingelfman.jpg) then you've got your basic guys at 23 points then you need to make your elites even more expensive. The army is small and GW wants bigger armies to sell more models. Plus the army would be ineffective, expensive 1W 3+ save guys.

Also, no one ever takes regular CSM now. Not that CSM are a bad unit, they are in fact pretty good. Could use reworked weapon and icon options tho.
But everyone just takes boring Plague Marines.

Maybe if cult troops had more drawbacks, like you could lower the WS/BS of Plague Marines or give them Slow and Purposeful like Nurgle Daemons
Granted 1ksons have that, but maybe you could just give them relentless until they lose the Sorc.

Zerks could get BS3, Rage well maybe not always Rage, maybe Rage only on a 1 every turn.

zealot!
13-04-2011, 21:18
It's not gonna change w/o a new book. If you like the GK stuff use that book.

Mannimarco
13-04-2011, 21:28
I prefer your last 2 topics about "Phoenix Lords - too powerful?" and is Mat Ward the best codex writer ever.

Casper Hawser
13-04-2011, 21:43
Id say the cult troops need to be made stronger or cheaper considering the death company cost 20pts and have furious charge, feel no pain, relentless 2 attacks 5 ws their basically a plague marine and berserker put together.
I'd like the berserkers to have jump packs.

Bloodknight
13-04-2011, 21:52
Zerks could get BS3, Rage

BS ok, but Rage? Who fields units with Rage? That would spell death to Khorne armies.

Sarevok
13-04-2011, 21:56
Id say the cult troops need to be made stronger or cheaper considering the death company cost 20pts and have furious charge, feel no pain, relentless 2 attacks 5 ws their basically a plague marine and berserker put together.
I'd like the berserkers to have jump packs.

but they have rage too


BS ok, but Rage? Who fields units with Rage? That would spell death to Khorne armies.

yes they shouldnt get rage maybe just a 1/6 chance?

MajorWesJanson
13-04-2011, 22:23
My vote is stronger but moved to Elites. Then a Chaos Lord with a matching mark can take them as troops.

Casper Hawser
13-04-2011, 22:36
All i'm saying is there a bit overpriced compared to marines but so are chaos marines when you start adding champion, icon, heavy weapon, flamer/ meltagun or whatever.

Depulsor
13-04-2011, 22:37
Yes, they should be weaker and much cheaper. The OP arguments are good on this.

BUT: I think rage on khorne troops is a very very very bad idea. Even on a 1/6 chance.
The player should play the army, not the dice.

Even if it were according to the fluff, it shouldnt be done.
On certain elite units, it is ok to give rage, but not on troops... and berserkers should be troops in a khorne army.

SgtTaters
13-04-2011, 23:04
Codex Grey Knights weakened the regular GK joes


They made them stronger and cheaper at the same time. s5 power weapons and a rending s7 assault cannon that power armor can move and shoot with is a trade up from what they used to have.

Cult troops as they are can use a points cut, or just redo their rules. Nothing about their rules is particularly too strong for troops.

If the GK codex is somethinig to go by, ws4 berserkers is plausible though. But then they'd get other nice stuff.

decker_cky
13-04-2011, 23:22
I think Space Wolfs is where we should look for what a basic chaos space marine is likely to get. 175-185 pts for 10 marines with a power fist champ, a plasma gun and an autocannon. Because they wouldn't get free special weapons, Berzerkers could easily remain as is and be balanced at 17-18 points. Noise marines with sonic blasters shouldn't be any more than that either, since they'd need to sit somewhere between a marine and a grey knight. Plague marines could probably get a real T5 and free specials for 10 models at 20 or 21 points. Thousand sons probably stay about the same with the Aspiring Sorceror rolled into the basic unit cost (so you don't really pay for him - only 20 points per model or so).

Chaos units are a bit expensive, but pay way too much for upgrades compared to other factions. All of the cult troops could fit at or below the grey knights 20 pts per model baseline for a unit pretty easily without needing to weaken them.

Death Company
13-04-2011, 23:26
They made them stronger and cheaper at the same time.

Yeah, I'm a little confused. How did they make Grey Knights weaker, exactly?

decker_cky
13-04-2011, 23:46
Basic GK traded S6 for the force weapon, but lost WS5 and an attack, in the scheme of things, those GK are maybe a bit weaker, but WAY cheaper (5 pts per model + upgrade justicar + free psychic powers).

DuskRaider
14-04-2011, 01:22
I don't think this topic is actually serious. Cult troops are horrible not only for their price, but their stats. Berserkers look like garbage compared to Death Company, Plague Marines WERE unique with their FNP until GW decided to give it to everyone... doesn't help they suffer for it with having a -1 Initiative. They have a somewhat +1 Toughness, but it needs to be changed to 5 in general.

TheMav80
14-04-2011, 01:28
Keep in mind that Death Company don't score. A pretty big drawback for a 5th edition Troop choice.

Depulsor
14-04-2011, 01:32
Why so serious?


Cult troops are horrible not only for their price, but their stats.

They arent. They are marines with the mark.
So the all should have the marine statline + the mark. Nothing more.

Of course some chaosfans would like to have berserkers with mephiston-statlines... thats the point, where the comedy really beginns. :p

Scribe of Khorne
14-04-2011, 01:41
Cult troops will be cheaper, and just as good, if not better next book.

Deal with it!

DuskRaider
14-04-2011, 01:41
Cult Troops can stay the same point if they get some big boosts. Right now having Marines running around with insta-death Force Weapons with crazy powers and a potential I6 all for 3 points CHEAPER than my Plague Marines is just ridiculous. So they do need more.Something like this:
Plague Marines: Mark of Nurgle (+1 T, -1 I) replaces 4.0 Mark of Nurgle. Relentless, Plague Knives, Plague Bolters (Wound on 4+ max which benefit from the Living Ammunition special rule). Plague Marines may take Chem-Burners (see Imperial Armour 7: Siege of Vraks Part Three) for 5 points. Champion may take Plague Sword(Power Weapon which wounds on 2+) for 20 points. Champion may have Aura of Decay for 20 points. Champion upgrade is free if squad takes Sacred Number Organization (7). If taken as a Death Guard Legion army, all Plague Marines gain the army wide rule Aura of Decay. Strength 2, AP -
Stats for Plague Marines are as follows (Mark of Nurgle included in stats):

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Cost
Plague Marines 5 4 4 5 1 3 2 10 3+ 23 points
Plague Champion 5 4 4 5 1 3 3 10 3+ +15 points

Number/Squad:
5-20

Wargear:
-Power Armour
-Plague Bolter
-Blight Grenades
-Frag Grenades
-Krak Grenades
-Plague Knife
-Plague Pistol

Special Rules:
-Mark of Nurgle (included in profile)
-Fearless
-Feel No Pain
-Relentless

Icon:
One model may be given a Personal Icon for 5 points.

Character:
One model may be upgraded to a Plague Champion for 15 points.
He may replace his Plague Knife with one of the following:
-Plague Sword for 20 points
-Power Fist for 25 points
He may replace his Bolt Pistol with a Plasma Pistol for 15 points
He may replaced his Bolter with one of the following:
-Twin-Linked Bolter for 5 points
-Combi-Weapon for 10 points
He may have Melta Bombs for 5 points

Options:
Up to two Plague Marines may replace Bolt Pistol with a Plasma Pistol for 15 points per model, or replace their Bolter with one of the following:
-Flamer for free
-Chem-Burner for 5 points per model
-Meltagun for 10 points per model
-Plasma Gun for 15 points per model

Transport:
The squad may have a Chaos Rhino dedicated transport.
The squad may have a Dread Claw Assault Pod for 65 points.

azimaith
14-04-2011, 03:28
Yes, they should be weaker and much cheaper. The OP arguments are good on this.

BUT: I think rage on khorne troops is a very very very bad idea. Even on a 1/6 chance.
The player should play the army, not the dice.

Even if it were according to the fluff, it shouldnt be done.
On certain elite units, it is ok to give rage, but not on troops... and
berserkers should be troops in a khorne army.

I think Khorne berserkers should have rage (because that's exactly what they are) but there should be options for other Khornate marines that aren't necessarily berserker. Khorne isn't the god of berserking much attacking without strategy. Raging Khorne berserkers would just be an option to get a much nastier marine (for a bargain price by comparison) while Khornate warriors would still be able to use similar equipment but not be subject to rage.

I mean if there is anyone who should be subject to the rage rules its Khorne berserkers. Its just should be clear that not all warriors of khorne need be berserkers.

I think people would field a unit of 22 point berserkers with rage, furious charge, rending, FNP, and 3 attacks each...

They just would have options (including chain axes and bolt pistols) to field non-berserking troops.

Vaktathi
14-04-2011, 03:35
I see no reason why Cult troops should be weaker, it's not like they are overpowered or underpriced as is. Even the basic CSM isn't that bad, I use them exclusively, however the problem is that, if you're going to play an army based around basic CSM's, you might as well just play Space Wolves and get the same units for fewer points and with Counterattack+ATSKNF.

Aside from Plague Marines, the other 3 Cult units aren't even all that popular. Noise Marines are horrifically overpriced for slightly more S4 firepower and I5, Thousand Sons have both of their advantages (AP3 and 4+ invul) greatly mitigated by 5E cover and requiring them to be in assault range to make best use of their weapons (and they aren't worth spit in assaults), and while Berzerkers are super choppy, they're wasted on many units and just end up being overkill while heavy CC units simply crush them (they aren't *bad*, but they certainly aren't *great* for 21ppm)

The problem with C:CSM is very certainly not with Cult units being too good.



but there should be options for other Khornate marines that aren't necessarily berserker Everything Khornate in the current book that isn't a Troops unit Berzerker is exactly what you describe with the current Chaos Space Marine codex.