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View Full Version : GK are only better because of there equipment



fusionmonkey
14-04-2011, 23:16
has anyone else noticed that compared to standard marines, the only difference GK has is there equipment of nemesis force weapons and storm bolters.

yes they are physkers as a squad, but it seems very strange as a whole fluff wise.

yes i know its a balancing issue as BS 5 WS 6 marines is not going to work but still, they could have been a bit more imaginative

ehlijen
14-04-2011, 23:42
But that's exactly what they are: just marines with different gear and training. They should never have been drastically better than any other chapter.

Their proximity to mars really only results in better gear, not training. And their psychic training really only gives them new ability, not inherent superiority in basic skills.

If anything, regular marine chapters should have superior line marines as instead of being sent to psychic school, their scouts go and actually fight on battlefields.

Leo
14-04-2011, 23:43
The guys who did Grey Knights were plenty imaginative.
That's what got us silly stuff like the Dread Knight and the Storm Raven.
I'd rather they had stayed somewhat more conventional.

But yeah, at first I was surprised about the stat reduction, too. I didn't mind much, though. Grey Knights are plenty different from normal Marines and when you think about it how should Grey Knights be that much better anyway?

The Codex Marines already have very high standards as far as recruitment, equipment and training goes. Not much room for improvement. So Grey Knights get their buffs out of being psykers and better equipment which the Codex shows.

fusionmonkey
14-04-2011, 23:46
i see where your comming from but you always imagine GK being so superier to all others and all it takes is a big shiny sword, a gun strapped on your wrist and a year in a library with books about the warp.

sigh, my respect for GK has gone down:cries: (not that it was ever hight the the new codex)

Archangel_Ruined
14-04-2011, 23:56
The 'Old-Skool' GK's people seem to be stat comparing with were really a construct of 2nd edition. Back then we had modifiers, so you could actually find a use for a stat above 5. Now we don't, so making GK's better than a standard marine makes a mockery of whole swathes of the game. As it stands I think they were quite clever with the wargear options, allowing you to up your save or initiative, giving an option to increase your weapons killing power, all without introducing stat lines that would make codex creep an understatement. Fluff aside, I don't think they've done too bad a job with the rules. There are still issues, unkillable LR's - I'm looking at you, but the basic GK's are pretty solid.

PostinDirty
15-04-2011, 00:57
The 'Old-Skool' GK's people seem to be stat comparing with were really a construct of 2nd edition.

2nd ed GK's weren't any different from regular terminators statwise.

Bubble Ghost
15-04-2011, 03:07
How superior could one type of Space Marine realistically be to another?

What makes a Grey Knight is more mental than physical, and 40K's rules are not big on reflecting discipline or leadership - morale is so utterly pointless in this game that psychic power is your lot for mental traits, really. That leaves you with just equipment and biceps to do the differentiating.

The Marshel
15-04-2011, 08:16
the stats are not precise enough to show the difference. ws 5 might have been worth considering, but in all seriousness, if you had to put a number on it i'd say they'd be ws 4.5, and you cant have ws 4.5

there is no reason for differing toughness, strength wounds or attacks. an initiative jump would be hard to justify and there are halberds anyway. LD is a pretty pointless stat to begin with, so giving them more is pointless and as i mentioned before, the difference in bs and ws wouldn't be sufficient for an entire point.

stats based on 20s rather then 10s might have shown some stat difference.

so consider their superiority in they ability to handle the more powerful gear. regular marines cannot amplify their weapons with psychic ability nor use force weapons to their full potential.

AlexHolker
15-04-2011, 09:29
How superior could one type of Space Marine realistically be to another?
By that logic, a Chapter Master should still be BS 4/WS 4/A 1.

Angelust
15-04-2011, 09:32
It's difficult to represent the stuff that would make GK truly outstanding in game terms anyway. Every single GK being a psyker amounts to a few mediocre psychic abilities in game, but in fluff, that's pretty damned powerful. Every foot soldier having not only the equipment but the psychic ability to simply snuff out the life of huge beasts like trygons and C'Tan is not too shabby either. After that, being very skilled at thumping daemons in the head in HTH is probably more representative of their specialized combat ability than a general increase to a WS5.

A d10 stat system that needs to span the abilities of a grot and a Blood Thirster sometimes can't adequately differentiate between a Space Marine and a Grey Knight Space Marine.

Poseidal
15-04-2011, 09:45
Except the old Grey Knights had a higher point of Weapon Skill in the previous book, which uses the same D6 system.

Depulsor
15-04-2011, 10:45
Its a question of how you see the stats.

One philosophy is, that you have to compare things:
An eldar aspectwarrior is more skilled than a marine, so he needs WS5. A khorne berserker is better than a marine, so needs WS5 ect.

Then you can look at it from the "categories" point of view.
2=untrained,3=trained,4=elite,5=hero ect.
So in this view, An eldar aspectwarrior, a berserker, a GK and a marine are all elite, so need to be given WS4.

The problem now is, that GW itself is inconsistent on how you have to look at the stats.
So you really cant say, if WS5 is justified for a GK or not.

tsuruki
15-04-2011, 11:17
Remember, these guys arent actually all that special caus there skilled, its what on the inside what makes them special, their complete immunity to corruption and their sheer force of will, their stats are the same caus in the end, theire only marines.... Just more pure on the inside, and since when has "purity" been a game stat eh?

Then theres the fact that theire given crazy equipment by the Imperium caus it is the Grey knights who are called upon to counter almost every major daemon threat that arises in the imperium, the imperium needs these super pure soldires to stare temptation in the face completely unflinching, and strike down the daemon.

Thats what makes the Gk special, not some silly WS 5 game stat.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
15-04-2011, 11:24
yes i know its a balancing issue as BS 5 WS 6 marines is not going to work but still, they could have been a bit more imaginative

All my knights have 10 in each and every stats - coz they're like zuperhumanz.
Somehow I fail to see how this demands imagination.

GKs have peculiar and unusual abilities like being psykers, storm bolter afficionados, and hanging out with oddities like assassins and inquisitors and not being an exclusive power armour chapter. This is what sets them apart.

BTW: when they were first introduced back in the lost and the damned, the GKs were 'just' an ordinairy marine list that weren't afraid of daemons, and had the option for inquisitors and imperial guards - and then of course later they got the option of fielding a unit of level 4 psyker termies :cheese:

Bassik
15-04-2011, 12:56
Let your Grey Knights play against Daemons, the enemy they where trained to fight, and see how much stronger they can be then your average marine.

Starchild
15-04-2011, 15:31
yes they are physkers as a squad, but it seems very strange as a whole fluff wise.That's actually a throwback to the 2nd edition Dark Millenium supplement.

Basically a squad of GKs back then counted as one psyker. The same applied to the lesser daemons, so for example a gaggle of Pink Horrors counted as a psyker, with a psy level dependent on how many Horrors were in the group.

fyi of course, carry on

SgtTaters
15-04-2011, 17:10
Grey Knights still have ws5 units

they're w2 now too.

Take their ws7 s5 t5 grand master as HQ and you now have ws5 w2 terminators for troops.

If you want super high stats, it's still possible. It's actually even crazier than it was in 3e codex.

If you want super elite power armor, then take Crowe (ws8!) and he gives you a2 ld9 fearless marines that set the air on fire.


So your mega elite options are still there. This codex just made them that, an option. They set more tiers to grey knight power, from 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8.
the 3e codex just had ws5 for troops and grandmasters.

fusionmonkey
15-04-2011, 18:22
i do understand where every one is comming from and i see all your points of game balancing. its just a personal thing you know. is suppose you cant really get that much better than a marine (fluff wise any way). and the intercepters 30" jump is something i really like and suits fluff and game.

Archangel_Ruined
16-04-2011, 00:25
True, that jump with psychic ammo and incinerators could make for a very bad day for your objective campers. They do have some seriously nasty options, they just lack a little mainstream AT (although there are enough options in the codex to make up for it).

tezdal
16-04-2011, 00:58
I'm just glad my zerks are the most skilled power armored troops of them all again

Bubble Ghost
16-04-2011, 01:16
By that logic, a Chapter Master should still be BS 4/WS 4/A 1.

I was talking about background and physical traits, not abstract superheroness.

Axeman1n
16-04-2011, 03:00
Their skill is in their incorruptability and their Psychic prowess.

zealot!
16-04-2011, 03:21
define better

you mispelled their

Notanoob
16-04-2011, 04:16
I see where the OP is comming from. The Grey Knights used to be way better than marines, I believe that at one point a GK commented to a pair of space marines whose ass he had just kicked because only a demon could stand up to him in a fight, or now he knew they weren't demons because he kicked both of their asses or something along those lines. Their stats also made good sense, WS5 allowed them to take on Bloodletters in CC and hold with them, S6 allowed them to put the hurt on those bigger guys without being instant rape as they weren't that good. But while it does suck to see that now everyone thinks they're just SMs that cut out stuff to make room for demon killing, they're so much more competitive now it isn't even funny.

Brotheroracle
16-04-2011, 04:39
I'm just glad my zerks are the most skilled power armored troops of them all again

As they should be.

Archangel_Ruined
16-04-2011, 04:40
Or something along those lines... You're remembering the tales of 2nd edition GK's in gaming terms or current GK's in fluff. The current rules of preferred enemy sorts out the chaos bashing, and past that the nasty stats sort out anyone else who care s to mix it with them.

I remember 2nd GK's, having lord level psykers as 'troop' choices (no such thing existed back then, and the powers were far nastier) was evil. When they were shoehorned into 4th ed was as a former shadow of themselves, much the same as harlequins are to their previous incarnations. HOWEVER... The current rules let you field an army that is more than just 8 - 12 models strong, which is what you'd get if you let the old mind set hold sway.

bishamon_o
16-04-2011, 06:51
I'm just glad my zerks are the most skilled power armored troops of them all again

death company owns khorne bezerkers on all fronts ( apart from objective claiming)

Monodominant
16-04-2011, 07:10
After my first game with GK I agree with the OP...

I know we have psykic power... I know we have force weapons... yes there are nice options and you can make many fluffy lists and a decent amount of competitive ones...

BUT

I really did miss my basic trooper having 2 attacks whether charged or not and also having WS 5 so that his FEW attacks can count...

I played against Orcs and I admit I played it wrong... but somehow used to the fact my PAGK would tear through them with 18 normal attacks and 3 PW attacks even when charged... with STR 6 and WS 5... it was a huge suprise when I ended up rolling 11 attacks at 4+ and wounding at 3+ to end up doing 3 wounds... sure the dice were cruel but it was like... WOW!

So I know its a strong codex... but the average PAGK lost alot... he is much cheaper now no doubt about it... and psycannons dont cost as much as one more trooper but well I dont know it doesnt feel like the Grey Knights I started the game with (I started in 2004 and DH were my first army)...

PostinDirty
16-04-2011, 07:24
i still reckon PAGK shouldn't even be in the game, but-oh-well



I remember 2nd GK's, having lord level psykers as 'troop' choices (no such thing existed back then, and the powers were far nastier) was evil.

well they could have 'lord' levels, but you had to pay for it - but they never were main-line troops, just 'allies' of which you could only spend up to 25% of your points on. which back in that day was a very easy thing to do with one 5 man unit after they got refractor fields, aegis suits, 4 psyker levels and you added 50% of their cost to teleport them in.

wooooooooo

fusionmonkey
16-04-2011, 22:40
bezerkers yes, death company better (there more angry)

halgruman
16-04-2011, 23:04
Not just their equipment. They were created with a brand new gene-seed.

The new codex even states: "The grey knights were born of new gene seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the emperors own flesh and soul"

There Gene-seed came from the emperor!. That has got to make them superior, right?

StarFyreXXX
17-04-2011, 00:43
Actaully, accordiing to the fluff, they ARE better than other marine chapters...hence WS 5 made sense... i Think just giving them ws 5, but keepingg rest of the stats as they did would have been good..maybe 1 or 2 pt increase for that?

Sanjay

DeviantApostle
17-04-2011, 01:53
The OP is right. Hammerhand, Warp Quake, Astral Aim, Clensing Flame and all the other psychic powers (particularly the ones on vehicles) totally make GKs no better than regular marines in terms of innate ability. GK players should completely ignore the psychic powers in the book and never, ever, use them because they're terrible.

What? Ulterior motive? I have no ulterior motive! By the way, I have this nice property on the Crone Worlds that's up for sale...