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friendsofrhomb
12-11-2011, 12:56
Can anyone give me any advice on using chariots?

I tend to field a unit of 6, and usually try to deploy on a flank and get a flank charge in (thats the plan) What USUALLY happens, is they get stuck manuvering around terrainand dont get into combat until turn 3 or 4, and then end up front charging an enemy that has reformed to face them anyway....

Are chariots viable for a frontal charge on units? or do I just have to learn to manuver them better? One option I was considering was having a liche priest on a horse follow behind them, casting desert wind :P But that would just be retarded ( i hate 12 inch spell ranges....)

Also, I managed to win a few ebay auctions for the old metal tomb guard (I hate the new models) and my number will be up to 48, are tomb guard ok with the Handweapon and shield, or should you use halberds? Im guessing in a small unit HW/S could be ok, but In a horde you would want halberds?

White_13oy
12-11-2011, 16:35
I like to run two units of three chariots, gives me options and a flank charge by both almost mean certain victory in that fight. It also give me another unit if they get Purple sun'd or Pit of Shaded. I've have been experimenting with a TK with Golden Mask on chariot, Tomb Herald BSB with the Strider Banner on chariots in a unit of 6 Chariots 4 wide together. Killy, no terrain checks, and it's a fast way of moving your deathmask around.

Skywave
12-11-2011, 19:10
Making a list for TK is too hard for me, I can never fit all that I like in a 2500pt game, then they also went and killed Khalida.

That's a problem I often have too when making list, so many cool stuff to try :p

As for Khalida, I think that a unit of BS3 archer with poison arrows is pretty cool, using her with a unit of 40+ archer looks deadly! She's pretty much defenseless in combat, but most of our characters are.


Can anyone give me any advice on using chariots?

I tend to field a unit of 6, and usually try to deploy on a flank and get a flank charge in (thats the plan) What USUALLY happens, is they get stuck manuvering around terrainand dont get into combat until turn 3 or 4, and then end up front charging an enemy that has reformed to face them anyway....

Are chariots viable for a frontal charge on units? or do I just have to learn to manuver them better? One option I was considering was having a liche priest on a horse follow behind them, casting desert wind :P But that would just be retarded ( i hate 12 inch spell ranges....)

Also, I managed to win a few ebay auctions for the old metal tomb guard (I hate the new models) and my number will be up to 48, are tomb guard ok with the Handweapon and shield, or should you use halberds? Im guessing in a small unit HW/S could be ok, but In a horde you would want halberds?

What you might need is something to charge in the front and not die until your Chariots can make it into the flank. We don't have many good tarpit units, so that can be tricky if your Chariots are ready to charge by turn 4. It will always depend on the enemy, but a big-ish unit of Skeletons (40-50) could hold out the enemy for a few rounds of combat, and a Sphinx can be surpringly good at holding the enemy too.

You can definitly win the fight in a frontal charge with Chariots, but you have to think about steadfast when doing so. If the enemy is going to be steadfast but won't have any support to help him afterward, you should just go ahead. If there's a lot of surrounding units ready to flank you afterward, it's not worth it if you can't reliably break them on the charge.

Tomb Guards with halberd are costly, and more so in big units. Strenght 5 is nice, but S4 isn't bad either, especially when you have killing blow with it. Also having a unit with T4 and a 5+/6++ save isn't that bad (for our army at least). When you loose combat, any save you made actually save 2 models because of crumbling, so I personally prefer my Tomb Guard with hand weapon and shield.


I like to run two units of three chariots, gives me options and a flank charge by both almost mean certain victory in that fight. It also give me another unit if they get Purple sun'd or Pit of Shaded. I've have been experimenting with a TK with Golden Mask on chariot, Tomb Herald BSB with the Strider Banner on chariots in a unit of 6 Chariots 4 wide together. Killy, no terrain checks, and it's a fast way of moving your deathmask around.

Ah, pretty sweet tips there with the strider banner! I rarely look at the pricy common banner, and look what I've missed :D

White_13oy
13-11-2011, 06:57
Yeah, tricking people see that big unit and think they can easily out maneuver it, but then you just move through terrain and they give a shocked face, puts a big grin on my face.

My big problems with Khalida, minus the huge nerf, she isn't worth her points for losing a lord level King or LHP. IMO, they should of made her a Hero and about 180 points. I still want to know why she has Hatred of Vampires with Ini 9 and ASF. I miss her special poison attacks, Regen and staff. I think if they had kept those should would be worth her points.

TheDrugLordX
13-11-2011, 19:51
Had another game with my TK today, and as for the result... I've completely given up on skeleton warriors. They can't do jack, and even though I had 40 of them in a unit they ALL crumbled after a single round of combat, leaving their king with only 2 wounds.

As for our other core, I have found the light horsemen to be a little hit or miss. They're not the best redirectors and are meh as a harassing unit (all because of their inability to flee/march). I have yet to try heavy horsemen but will give them a try sometime.

This pretty much leaves us with chariots and archers to fill the core allowment with. So damn stupid, whoever designed this book obviously have no clue how this game works (cruddance, I'm looking at you), and I havn't even STARTED to talk about our special, rare and hero choices... (note that I'm only talking about internal game balance, as a whole the book, very strangely somehow, is actually quite balanced).

Anywho, I wanted to build an army based on fluff/what I like model-wise, but after having my ass handed to me just because I play a sub-par list I decided to make the fluff more around the army selection. My current incarnation:

Tomb King - Golden Death Mask of Kharnut, Glittering Scales, Dragonbane Gem, Chariot, Great Weapon
Liche Priest - Level 2, Hierophant
Liche Priest - Level 2, Lore of Nehekara

5 Skeleton Chariots - Banner of Eternal Flame, Musician
30 Skeleton Archers
10 Skeleton Archers
10 Skeleton Archers

4 Necropolis Knights
4 Necropolis Knights
28 Tomb Guard - Halberds, Full Command

Screaming Skull Catapult - Skulls of the Foe
Screaming Skull Catapult
Casket of Souls


I play using army composition scores so when I talk about designing the fluff around the army list I pretty much refer to the army composition. The idea is to play the archers defensively with the tomb guard and one unit of knights to countercharge, whilst running the king with other unit of knights offensively on the flank. The large 30 archer unit act as a bunker for my wizards and the other smaller units act as re-directs to enhance the performance of the tomb guard/knights and to protect the main bunker. I also wanted to use the mask on the king to max effect with the casket & skulls of the foe uppgrade (sadly only found the points for one). I also miss command model(s) on the archers.

If you have any thoughts please share them :)

Skywave
13-11-2011, 23:04
Honestly, Cruddace have nothing to do with how bad Skeletons Warriors perform. The problem come from the main rules, not the army book. Skeletons are penalised for being undead when it come to combat. Other cheap infantry benefit from steadfast to offset their poor combat performence, but not undead. Loosing by 10 with Skeletons is very nasty, but loosing by 10 with something steadfast isn't as bad. That's why Skeletons are not a good tarpit unit (thus making them useless as they can't do anything else), and should never be used in multiple combat if you can help it. Everyone was pretty happy to learn they had their cost cut in half (me included), but it turned out that they still feel overpriced.

As for your list, I'm not sure that counting on the mask being in range for a Catapult shot is worth the cost of the upgrade. You could spend those points on some command models instead.

oldWitheredCorpse
14-11-2011, 09:33
Tomb Guards with halberd are costly, and more so in big units. Strenght 5 is nice, but S4 isn't bad either, especially when you have killing blow with it. Also having a unit with T4 and a 5+/6++ save isn't that bad (for our army at least). When you loose combat, any save you made actually save 2 models because of crumbling, so I personally prefer my Tomb Guard with hand weapon and shield.

On the other hand, every additional kill also saves a tomb guard in combat resolution if you are losing. You have to decide whether you are trying to win the fight (=more kills) or if you are just pinning the enemy before winning the fight. We are bad at losing, so a costly win is usually much better than losing slowly.

And chariots can now move through terrain freely - they only need to test when they charge, purse or overrun. For every chariot that has to test, there is about 10% chance of losing it. This means that even if all chariots have to test, it's usually worth it if you can catch your opponent in a bad position.

jtrowell
14-11-2011, 13:37
@TheDrugLordX: how did you lose 40 skeletons buffed by a king in only one round ?

It means that something won a fight against an unit with WS6 by more than 20.

Were you in combat with a swormasters or chaos chosen horde ? An ogre ironguts deathstar ? Or were you combo charged on several sides at the same time ?

Any of those situation could *maybe* result in what you describe, but even a skavenslave bus would be dead in 2 rounds at best in such a situation (I once had a 50 slaves bus combo charged by a dragon on a flank, a lion chariot on another, and swordmaster on the front, the unit evaporated so fast that in *one* round of combat the swordmasters had more rank that me and I wasn't steadfast anymore, but this doesn't make the slave useless)

TheDrugLordX
14-11-2011, 13:58
@TheDrugLordX: how did you lose 40 skeletons buffed by a king in only one round ?

It means that something won a fight against an unit with WS6 by more than 20.

Were you in combat with a swormasters or chaos chosen horde ? An ogre ironguts deathstar ? Or were you combo charged on several sides at the same time ?

Any of those situation could *maybe* result in what you describe, but even a skavenslave bus would be dead in 2 rounds at best in such a situation (I once had a 50 slaves bus combo charged by a dragon on a flank, a lion chariot on another, and swordmaster on the front, the unit evaporated so fast that in *one* round of combat the swordmasters had more rank that me and I wasn't steadfast anymore, but this doesn't make the slave useless)

Funny, I play both Skaven and Tomb Kings ;)

Yes, I got to experiance the Ogre Irongut star. I think there was 9 of them + BSB + firebelly + slaughtermaster with fencers blades and S5. In addition, they also made that 10" charge roll so inflicted 4d3 S6 impact hits :wtf:

So the king ended up in a challenge with his BSB, I only managed a total of 2 wounds on him over two rounds of combat due to him getting trollguts of, which was just insane on that unit.

Oh, did I mention I got a flank charge with a unit of 4 necropolis knights (no command though) after my king survived alone with 2 wounds? His BSB inflicted only one wound on my king and despite me having righteous smiting on the knights I got beaten by 1 and the king crumbled, he reformed to face the knights and beat the crap out of the rest of my army in the following turns.

Marshal Augustine
14-11-2011, 19:08
Chariots are awesome. I love them and I wish I had more (i own 16) :D

White_13oy
14-11-2011, 21:47
So, I looked around and didnt find a discussion on this and thought there was a lot more on it. What was the final say on fencers blades and mwnd?

friendsofrhomb
14-11-2011, 21:59
Thanks for the advise regarding Tomb Guard, I can see they both have their pros and cons. I think I'll stick with the Sword and board guard for now , since that doesnt require any converting(i hate converting metal).

oldwitheredcorpse- you said 'And chariots can now move through terrain freely, they only need to test when they charge, purse or overrun' is that the case? I thought they took a dangerous terrain test for everything other than open ground?

Skywave
16-11-2011, 04:33
On the other hand, every additional kill also saves a tomb guard in combat resolution if you are losing. You have to decide whether you are trying to win the fight (=more kills) or if you are just pinning the enemy before winning the fight. We are bad at losing, so a costly win is usually much better than losing slowly.

And chariots can now move through terrain freely - they only need to test when they charge, purse or overrun. For every chariot that has to test, there is about 10% chance of losing it. This means that even if all chariots have to test, it's usually worth it if you can catch your opponent in a bad position.

For the Tomb Guards part; yeah killing and making a save might both save an extra Guards, but one option cost +2pts ;) For an already pricy unit that you would want to be around 30-strong at least, it's starting to make for one expensive unit. But you're right about choosing wich role you want to fullfill. I personally think we have enough hard-hitting stuff, but not enough good anvil, so it's in part why I prefer the sword and shield.

For Chariots; if I understand correctly what you said about it, then you are wrong. The p.117 rule about dangerous terrain is quite clear that chariot, along cavalry and monstrouns cavalry, count everything outside open ground as dangerous terrain. So moving through a wood or river would make the unit test, and taking D6 wounds on a Chariots unit is not pretty!

Lord_Byron
16-11-2011, 04:42
For the Tomb Guards part; yeah killing and making a save might both save an extra Guards, but one option cost +2pts ;) For an already pricy unit that you would want to be around 30-strong at least, it's starting to make for one expensive unit. But you're right about choosing wich role you want to fullfill. I personally think we have enough hard-hitting stuff, but not enough good anvil, so it's in part why I prefer the sword and shield.

For Chariots; if I understand correctly what you said about it, then you are wrong. The p.117 rule about dangerous terrain is quite clear that chariot, along cavalry and monstrouns cavalry, count everything outside open ground as dangerous terrain. So moving through a wood or river would make the unit test, and taking D6 wounds on a Chariots unit is not pretty!

Right, page 117 says that chariots treat all terrain other than open terrain as dangerous. As such they they take a dangerous terrain test when marching, charging, fleeing and pursuing through a wood or river. They can still make normal moves through it without having to make a dangerous terrain roll.

Yamabushi
16-11-2011, 06:13
+1 Lord_Byron. Also, with our magic, we can simulate a "pseudo-marching" with Chariots through these terrain without taking dangerous terrain tests. Ain't life beautiful?

jtrowell
16-11-2011, 10:35
@DrugLordX: For the cost of the 9 ironguts unit alose (9 IG + full command), you could get an unit of 95 skeletons with HW and shields and FC.

Add the probable magic banner on the unit, and the cost of the characters, and you probably get in the 1200-1400 range for the total cost of the unit, compared to probably ~400 points of your skeleton unit + king (maybe 500 points if you took spear and/or light armor and the king was fully equipped)

Against such unit, unless you get your own deathstar (and a powerful one to manage a Gutstar with 3 characters) then the solution is not a direct confrontation with your own units one at a time but using redirectors to eitheir kill the rest of his army while ignoring the star (and letting it only grab a few points where it can), or gain enough time to reduce the deathstar potential (ranged attacks and spells) and/or combo charge with a force powerful enough to take the unit (probably including one or two sphinxes if you have them)

Usually the solution of ignoring/redirecting such a deathstar is probably the easiest, but it's true that we don't have the best or cheapest redirectors (70 point horse archers or 72 points carrions are not bad, but as unit to sacrifice, a 50 point eagle or 24 points sabertusk is better suited)

So don't feel bad about your unit, almost anything would have evaporated against this unit.

Praetor_Dragoon
16-11-2011, 18:21
What is more useful for skeleton archers, to deploy them 10-wide and 2-deep or use two troops of 5-wide/2-deep?

Skywave
16-11-2011, 21:22
Right, page 117 says that chariots treat all terrain other than open terrain as dangerous. As such they they take a dangerous terrain test when marching, charging, fleeing and pursuing through a wood or river. They can still make normal moves through it without having to make a dangerous terrain roll.

Ah that's right, my fault here. I only glanced at the second paragraph when responding, and asumed it was even for normal movement :p


Usually the solution of ignoring/redirecting such a deathstar is probably the easiest, but it's true that we don't have the best or cheapest redirectors (70 point horse archers or 72 points carrions are not bad, but as unit to sacrifice, a 50 point eagle or 24 points sabertusk is better suited)

You can also use 10 naked Skeletons for that purpose for only 40pts, if you don'y need the speed of the other choices.


What is more useful for skeleton archers, to deploy them 10-wide and 2-deep or use two troops of 5-wide/2-deep?

Unit of 10 and 20 Archers have both their uses, it'll depend of what you usually face. While a unit of 10 don't have that much firepower, it's usefull to take out small unit/single models, like the afformentioned Eagle, or Fanatics, or small unit of Hounds or Dire Wolves for exemple, without having to "waste" a big unit's round of shooting to take care of it. Unit of 20+ are of course better in potential damage and good bunker for Liches.

jtrowell
17-11-2011, 09:19
The problem with the 10 naked skeletons is that they are so slow, even slower that dwarves, that you will have a hard time to position them correctly, even with help from our domain spell (if it is not dispelled)

Skeleton archers can scout and vanguard and be already in or near the correct place, and they have twice the mouvement.

Carrions are fliers, so even if they cannot march they can still be very mobiles.

Other possible redirector: 5 horsemen without upgrade (60 point)

About the archers, if you go 20 or more with 10 wide ranks, don't forget to bring a musicien, a swift reform can be invaluable for such unit.

Units of 10 archer can usually do without, wheeling to face their target

Note that a big archer unit has the advantage of being a better target for the spell that give multi-shoot (when cast in the non boosted version), and be harder to kill completly, while two smaller units have the advantage of being easier to heal with the domain spell if not in combat (with one d3+1 heal for each unit), and can help you to optimize your shoot by allocating them 10 at a time (so you have less risk of wasting shoots on a lone target for exemple)

Althwen
17-11-2011, 09:46
I had a battle against my mate's High Elves yesterday and decided to leave my unit of 50 skeletons with Tomb King at home, since they kept running into Dwellers the last couple of times. (Last time Dwellers even killed my Tomb King... seriously stupid spell)

My new and revised armylist completely butchered the High Elves and the only victory points he earned was my dead lvl 2 liche, who I'd blown up myself!

This is the list:

[2000 pts]
Hierophant Lvl 4 -Earthing Rod [Lore of Nehekhara]
Tomb King - Gambler's armour, shield, spear, dragonbane gem, Chariot
Liche lvl 2 - Dispel Scroll [Lore of Light]

Core:
19 archers - musician
5 Chariots - Full command + Flaming banner (I build all-comers lists so...)
10 archers
10 skeleton warriors

Special:
Warsphinx - Fiery roar
4 Necroknights - Captain, banner, EBtS

Rare:
Hierotitan
Casket of Souls


The list will look and feel small, but it has good stamina and allows for some hanging back with decent shooting (between the archerunits and chariots you have 39 shots per turn) and strong and divers magic.
The 10 warriors and 10 archers are pure drops and redirectors, the Warsphinx is the anvil and the chariots and Necroknights are the hammer.
And those chariots are awesome! They ran through 10 white lions, 14 swordmasters+archmage and 30 Spearmen! (during the last combat they were supported by the warpshinx)
And the Hierotitan can lend aid wherever it is needed.

Althwen
17-11-2011, 09:58
+1 Lord_Byron. Also, with our magic, we can simulate a "pseudo-marching" with Chariots through these terrain without taking dangerous terrain tests. Ain't life beautiful?
I had my chariots move a whopping 21 inches in one turn the other day.

1. normal move = 7"
2. cast Birona's Timewarp
3. Signature move spell = 14"

Fastest chariots ever! :D

TheDrugLordX
17-11-2011, 11:32
@DrugLordX: For the cost of the 9 ironguts unit alose (9 IG + full command), you could get an unit of 95 skeletons with HW and shields and FC.

Add the probable magic banner on the unit, and the cost of the characters, and you probably get in the 1200-1400 range for the total cost of the unit, compared to probably ~400 points of your skeleton unit + king (maybe 500 points if you took spear and/or light armor and the king was fully equipped)

Against such unit, unless you get your own deathstar (and a powerful one to manage a Gutstar with 3 characters) then the solution is not a direct confrontation with your own units one at a time but using redirectors to eitheir kill the rest of his army while ignoring the star (and letting it only grab a few points where it can), or gain enough time to reduce the deathstar potential (ranged attacks and spells) and/or combo charge with a force powerful enough to take the unit (probably including one or two sphinxes if you have them)

Usually the solution of ignoring/redirecting such a deathstar is probably the easiest, but it's true that we don't have the best or cheapest redirectors (70 point horse archers or 72 points carrions are not bad, but as unit to sacrifice, a 50 point eagle or 24 points sabertusk is better suited)

So don't feel bad about your unit, almost anything would have evaporated against this unit.

Just like you said, we have very expensive re-directors. And with the ogres being in my face by turn two and with our very limited movement, redirecting becomes very tricky to actually pull through.

Sure, I could spend like 150pts on two units of redirectors to keep him busy for two turns, but that's 150pts I could spend on something useful, like a sphinx. Tomb King armies have no great redirect options, apart from sphinxes which are more anvils than redirectors.

The main problem I had with my list was the fact that I had no flaming attacks (except for light signature spell). He managed to get trollguts of every single turn bar the first, and I had no way to dealing with him. The unit of chariots with flaming banner + king in my new list I feel gives me more options than the 40 skeleton warriors would ever do, and they're even in a similar points range. This internal balance sometimes makes me frustrated.

For redirects I'm gonna try two units of 10 archers. Sure, they're not perfect for the job but with some careful manouvering it can be pulled of, and instead of just sitting there waiting for my opponent they actually harass as my enemy advances.

I'm still very disappointed with the lore of light. Might be though because last game I failed my attempt at casting two spells with 2 dice each against his 0 remaining dispell (and scroll had been drawn out), needing 5+ and 7+ respectively with a hierotitan support!:wtf: I don't feel that the 600pts or so I spent on magic payed of, and will try playing a bit more magic light.

jtrowell
17-11-2011, 13:29
Just one thing: with the kind of equipement that you take, a prince shoudl be almost as useful as a king, and would let you enough point to maybe take a second prince to buff another unit or something else.

Sure, against swordmaster with their WS6 will see a difference, but most of the time having WS5 from a prince will be enough (gobelins and skaven slaves will still hit your on 5+, and you will still hit anything that is not a character or an elven elite unit on 3+)

Althwen
17-11-2011, 13:35
Just one thing: with the kind of equipement that you take, a prince shoudl be almost as useful as a king, and would let you enough point to maybe take a second prince to buff another unit or something else.

Sure, against swordmaster with their WS6 will see a difference, but most of the time having WS5 from a prince will be enough (gobelins and skaven slaves will still hit your on 5+, and you will still hit anything that is not a character or an elven elite unit on 3+)

I totally support this notion. For me personally, however, it takes a king to do this job properly since my metagame consists of: High Elves, Dark Elves, Daemons and Orcs.

3 out of 4 armies are no stranger to WS 5 units, with even some WS 6 in the mix. A Prince just didn't cut it, and he got upgraded. :D

EnternalVoid
18-11-2011, 05:14
I had my chariots move a whopping 21 inches in one turn the other day.

1. normal move = 7"
2. cast Birona's Timewarp
3. Signature move spell = 14"

Fastest chariots ever! :D

One problem, Timewarp doubles your Movement, not your move. Meaning it doubles the Stat which has a cap of 10. I know it is a bummer as it means that Cav does not get near the speed bonus that infantry does. So the most you can get out of it is 17", the base 7 plus 10 from the Signature and timewarp.

The thing to also remember though is timewarp expires on your next magic phase, which means your next movement phase is also effected. Movement 10" plus your charge is pretty far. I had a game with High Elves where I casted it first turn on a unit so that it could charge second turn thanks to the extra movement.

Arijharn
18-11-2011, 05:42
I'm thinking about starting up a TK army (I'm actually undecided between VC's and TK's, both have a strong appeal to me) and I was wondering how effective running a TK Warsphinx with another 2 TG Warshpinx's as a loose 'unit' would turn out?

I realise that the TGWS wouldn't be able to get the benefit of My Will Be Done, but that's why I'm thinking about taking another wizard to give me Light access, depending on size of the game trying to gun primarily for Speed of Light so I can at least buff one of those stone cats. Regardless though 50% chance to hit and I believe a 66% chance to wound on T4 should give me a high chance of doing decent damage, and of course the Warsphynx' Thundercrash attack et al.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has tried this tactic out? I realise that TG unit that is joined by a TP or TK would likely give better results in most situations.

Althwen
18-11-2011, 12:00
One problem, Timewarp doubles your Movement, not your move. Meaning it doubles the Stat which has a cap of 10. I know it is a bummer as it means that Cav does not get near the speed bonus that infantry does. So the most you can get out of it is 17", the base 7 plus 10 from the Signature and timewarp.

The thing to also remember though is timewarp expires on your next magic phase, which means your next movement phase is also effected. Movement 10" plus your charge is pretty far. I had a game with High Elves where I casted it first turn on a unit so that it could charge second turn thanks to the extra movement.

Are you sure? Is there a FAQ I missed?
It says the target's Movement is doubled... It doesn't say that its movement characteristic is doubled.
It's like with gaining extra attacks, they CAN take you above 10. So why wouldn't movement be the same??

Althwen
18-11-2011, 12:03
I'm thinking about starting up a TK army (I'm actually undecided between VC's and TK's, both have a strong appeal to me) and I was wondering how effective running a TK Warsphinx with another 2 TG Warshpinx's as a loose 'unit' would turn out?


And here I was considering putting my Prince on chariot with some Necroknights...

I sure as hell haven't tried your suggestion, but is it even sensible to do that? We're talking about a 800 pts unit or maybe even more! That's a lot of eggs in one basket.

Pulstar
18-11-2011, 13:15
a TK/TP on a warsphinx isn't a great option.

First off, you pay full price for the Warsphinx, but you lose 4 KB attacks.
Second, if you get hit by a cannon, both the Warsphinx and TK/TP take the hit.

A Chariot is a better delivery system for a TK/TP since it's faster and has impact hits. It's also 1/4 the cost.

As far as the TK vs VC go. I'd wait and see what they do with the new VC book that is coming out. The TK book is balanced, but it has a few flaws that stop it from being great.

I'd like to think the new VC will fall into the same balance as the all the new 8th books seem to be have. but VC has been a one of the power armies in the last few editions. If power creep is going to happen it will start with the VC book.

friendsofrhomb
18-11-2011, 23:02
Well the last of my 48 metal tomb guard arrived today, so in the next game I play I will be fielding them. I plan on fielding them with the BotUL, a tomb king, a necrotect and perhaps a liche priest. I have a couple of questions.

1. Is a unit of 50 too big? Maybe 40 will be a better size, considering the banner should keep the unit topped up fairly well.

2. I was thinking about taking rhamatop the visionary instead of a regular necrotect. 50 points extra for frenzy and a construct unit with a re rollable AS seems pretty good. anyone else had any success fielding him ?

Arijharn
19-11-2011, 00:30
a TK/TP on a warsphinx isn't a great option.

First off, you pay full price for the Warsphinx, but you lose 4 KB attacks.
Second, if you get hit by a cannon, both the Warsphinx and TK/TP take the hit.


Thanks for the advice but if your within range of a loose formation formed from other TK Warsphynx's, you'll be able to attempt your look out sir rolls if nothing else (albeit not on a 2+), and presumably you'd outfit your TK/P with at least Preservation. There's definitely the risk though since most people I know don't just take one cannon but several.

I admit; I'm just picturing a wave of thundercrash attacks ringing out upon a small infantry unit.

Yamabushi
19-11-2011, 00:32
@friendsofrhomb - Go for Ramhotep, he is very good, the only thing you might want to consider is his lack of protection

@Arijharn - I don't think you can get the 4+ LoS as there is no rank and file of the same type with at least 5 models when the king is on a sphinx.

Arijharn
19-11-2011, 00:34
Yeah, that would be true! I was just thinking Monster, Monster and Monster all within range.

Skywave
19-11-2011, 18:41
Well the last of my 48 metal tomb guard arrived today, so in the next game I play I will be fielding them. I plan on fielding them with the BotUL, a tomb king, a necrotect and perhaps a liche priest. I have a couple of questions.

1. Is a unit of 50 too big? Maybe 40 will be a better size, considering the banner should keep the unit topped up fairly well.

2. I was thinking about taking rhamatop the visionary instead of a regular necrotect. 50 points extra for frenzy and a construct unit with a re rollable AS seems pretty good. anyone else had any success fielding him ?

If only because of the point cost, I wouldn't go beyond 40 Tomb Guards unless you play very large games, like 4000pts or more. Especially with all the characters you plan to chuck in, that'll make for one pricy deathstar! The BotUL and regular magic should be able to sustain the units, so better save a few point and use 40 instead of 50 :p


Thanks for the advice but if your within range of a loose formation formed from other TK Warsphynx's, you'll be able to attempt your look out sir rolls if nothing else (albeit not on a 2+), and presumably you'd outfit your TK/P with at least Preservation. There's definitely the risk though since most people I know don't just take one cannon but several.

I admit; I'm just picturing a wave of thundercrash attacks ringing out upon a small infantry unit.

Like Yamabushi said, you need to have a unit with 5+ rank and file models nearby, just like regular look out sir. So even if you had 5 sphinxes around your mounted King, it would't works (but would look awesome!).

Arijharn
20-11-2011, 12:59
Of course, because it isn't actually a unit though you could put the Tomb King behind the others as a screen since the cannon would need to kill the monster outright before it would be allowed to 'bounce through.'

You could then have a Necrotect nearby for the 6+ regen 'insurance' and be able to get some healing off on the monsters from your Hierophant etc.

TheDrugLordX
21-11-2011, 13:15
So, I had another two games against ogres. They lasted about 1,5 hours each, ie I was already wiped after the 3rd or 4th turn. I'm really having problems making a good list to face them with, as well as being a good overall list.

I ran this list:

Tomb Prince - Flail, Chariot, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem
Liche Priest - Level 2, Hierophant, Dispell Scroll
Liche Priest - Level 2, Lore of Light
Liche Priest - Level 2, Lore of Light

20 Skeleton Archers - Musician
20 Skeleton Archers - Musician
5 Skeleton Chariots - Standard, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Skeleotn Horsemen

4 Necropolis Knights
4 Necropolis Knights
28 Tomb Guard - Full Command

Screaming Skull Catapult
Screaming Skull Catapult
Necrolith Colossuss - Great Weapon

2398pts

We play with composition scores. My list was a little "nicer" than his, giving me a free 150vps or so as the game ends.

First game, he charged my tomb guard unit with maneaters (scout, sniper, brace of handguns) and they evaporated (even though they had phas protection). They overan into my mage bunker (3 mages) and as they died turn two the game was pretty much over.

Next game, I did the stupid mistake of putting my hierophant with my tomb guard at the front. His maneater scouts deployed ahead of him, he moved them up and sniped my hierophant. Game pretty much over by turn one. The maneaters then continued with wiping out my tomb guard (again, in a single round of combat) and then mopped up my army from behind.

I'm planning on trying out the following list next - unless you guys think it's pure crap maybe?


Liche High Priest - Level 4, Book of Ashur, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant

Liche Priest - Level 1, Forbidden Rod
Tomb Prince - Armour of Silvered Steel, Dragonbane Gem, Great Weapon, General
Tomb Prince - Armour of Destiny, Great Weapon

10 Skeleton Archers
10 Skeleton Archers
10 Skeleton Archers
10 Skeleton Archers
3 Skeleton Chariots - Banner of Eternal Flame
3 Skeleton Chariots - Banner

28 Tomb Guard - Full Command
28 Tomb Guard - Full Command

Casket of Souls
Hierotitan

I figured I would benefit more from the archers by using them as redirectiors when combat comences so split them to 4 10 man groups. The idea is pretty much to "regenerate" the army with the Nehekara lore attribute, with a +6 up to +8 to cast I can cast most spells with 2 dice safely, and most boosted on 4 dice safely (sometimes even 3 times). Level 1 takes signature to get the army moving and when those crucial combat comences she provides me with another d6 extra powerdice. Combined with the casket I can get crazy amount of dice even when rolling snakeeyes for winds of magic. This army idea won't work however if the Tomb Guard evaporate like they've done in my previous games...

So, your thoughts? It's meant as an all-comers list.

Althwen
22-11-2011, 11:19
If your Hierophant is in such dire straits due to those Maneaters, why not give him some protection instead of the Book of Ashur?

Book of Ashur+Casket of Souls+Hierotitan = a bit overdoing it?

Drop the book and get a ward save or even some 10 skellie warriors you can drop in front of your Hierophant to give him some cover. He can't snipe through your unit, can he.

I would also combine those two chariot units into one, giving you a much needed strength bonus on those impact hits, which will make a huge difference against Ogres.
Chuck a chariot under one of those Princes and you have yourself a hardhitting unit that will even cause Ogres a serious pain in the ass.

Also, if you go for this big chariot unit, giving it full command has its advantages.
I always take champions in combat units to challenge Lords and heroes with, since your champions will also be the first model you will raise back, they can keep your casualties to a minimum for a long time by Challenge-locking a Tyrant.
The musician is nice because you may come to realise that you may need a bigger front because one or two chariots are missing from the back rank and you're not gaining a strength bonus anymore anyway. So reform for more impact hits.

Splitting those Archers is a good idea. However, I would keep one unit of 20 intact to bunker your lvl 4 in and use as a main target for Incantation of Smiting. The other two can function as drops and still harass quite nicely.

Where are your Warsphinxes? They're super nice.
Drop one unit of TG and expand the other with the points leftover from getting a Warsphinx?

You could also consider harassing him back with Sepulchral stalkers who are nice versus a low initiative army like Ogres. This could also lead to you takign the Lore of Death on your level 1 by the way.

Your army would change considerably, but I think this will give your army a bit more oomph.

Althwen
30-11-2011, 14:37
Raise thread!

(Seem to be some TK related questions out there that would fit nicely into the Tactica thread.)

Von Wibble
02-12-2011, 20:24
Generally Ogres are very hard hitting for the cost, but are not that resilient. They really don't like chariots, so I'd have more than you used. That said, I use more chariots anyway!

Sphinxes (either type) are generally very nice as ogres have very little above S6. The cannon is the only thing I can think of.

Stalkers are also great (imo great aganist all comers except possibly daemons) and can really put the hurt on ogres.

A skeleton horse unit is your best solution to maneaters. They can use their vanguard move to get in the way of the sniper shots. Then you throw some chariots in their faces.

CmdrLaw
03-12-2011, 01:46
Looking to start up a new TK army for a campaign weekend (Friendly non-Tournament) and have spent most of today reading this entire thread and had a few thoughts I may as well bring up. let me know if I am talking smack at any point!

+ Archers with the Heirophant seem to basically be HW+S skele's that can shoot as the 6+ regen matches the ward. Stick a prince in as well and you also have MWBD (thought not needed) leads me to think that you can take a unit of 40 archers as a solid focus point (just not expected to achieve anything).

+ Don't see many Heralds in with characters in the list, but as far as protecting the Kings/Priests isn't the extra two wounds for 60pts better value than most defensive items?

+Best unit I can think of for Watch tower is the Ushabti....but then the idea of a Warsphinx occurred as he would count as 5 models for assaulting and be really really hard to hurt. So if playing that scenario maybe Ushabti for Garrison and Sphinx for assaulting?

+Chariots look ace, but as their obvious use is to hit a unit in the side and hopefully break it with impact hits surely a Chariot king will often be wasted, but it appears a lot so maybe I am mistaking their use/effectiveness.

+Heirotitan looks like an ace support unit, but it's also a monster. No word on this guy being an alright counter attacker?

+Lot of talk of Khalida, Khatep and Ramhotep but not much word on the other special characters. Anyone had much joy with the others what about Pimpmaster S?

Arijharn
03-12-2011, 10:05
I played as my Daemons of Chaos today against a mate who had Apophis who actually performed really well.

He revealed himself close to Masque (and marked her as his prey) and in his next turn charged her. Sure Masque hit and wounded, but 4+ regen prevented most of his blows (I think he only dropped 1?) The combination of his 5 attacks + his Breath weapon and re-rolls for both of these dropped her, even though she had a 3+ ward save.

In short; I think Apophis is quite underrated, although you obviously have to be picky on what you declare to be his target, but that's okay because he's completely immortal until the TK wants to bring him onto the board (short of EbtS mishap)

CmdrLaw
04-12-2011, 18:22
Finally booted up the army builder and I have put together the following 1500pt list for a non-tournament campaign weekend.
Likely to be playing the watchtower Scenario.

+Lord-
High Lich Priest
Lvl 4
Earthing Rod
Talisman Endurance

+Core
29 Skeleton Archers
-Chanpion only

3 Skeleton Chariots
-Musician -Standard (Banner of eternal Flame)

+Special
6 Ushabti
Great Weapons

Warsphinx
-Fiery Roar

+Rare
2 Screaming Skull Catapult

Casket of Souls


Found points went very quickly in 1500 as would have liked a prince or some more chariots but no space for everything.

Basic thinking is Priest sits in archers and hopefully the chariots and Ushabti will be the bigger threat target. If assaulting the tower shoot the hell out of it and assault with the Sphinx. When garrisoning I went with Ushabti over TG as think they will perform slightly better.

2 Skull Catapults will hopefully force the opponent out of a defensive position.

As I have no models yet and looking to work out lists then only buying what I need feel free to point out anything dumb I have done.

Spiney Norman
05-12-2011, 14:14
What are you're thoughts (if any) regarding Settra?

I've been looking at leading my army with a chariot King and Settra is far better than any build I can come up with even given his increased pts cost.

I'm thinking of running him in a unit of 6 chariots (2 ranks of 3 with Settra on the side) with full command and banner of swiftness with a Colossus or two in close support. What a NC could do with WS7 I dread to think.

Marshal Augustine
05-12-2011, 14:28
Settra is quite a good pick. The loss of his 2+ AS is a hit, but being able to fit him into a 2000pt game is awesome. Lots of chariots... hit like a tonne of bricks. I ran it a few times and loved it. If you take a look at his gear and compare, he is cheaper than a King+Priest and all the options that he has added on.

TheDrugLordX
05-12-2011, 20:56
So I had a great success against ogres yesterday... Now that I've tested alot of different things in the TK book I feel like I'm comming to a list I feel happy both playing and modeling!

This is not what I brought to the battle, but close to it. My latest incarnation:


Tomb King - Destroyer of Eternities, Charmed Shield, Dragonbane Gem
Liche High Priest - Level 4, Book of Ashur
Liche Priest - Level 2, Neferra's Plaques of Mighty Incantations, Lore of Death

28 Skeleton Archers - Standard, Musician
10 Skeleton Archers
10 Skeleton Archers
5 Skeleton Chariots - Banner of the Eternal Flame

4 Necropolis Knights
4 Necropolis Knights

Hierotitan
Necrosphinx
Screaming Skull Catapult
Screaming Skull Catapult

2398pts


I'll also try to explain how I reasoned, it's a tactical thread after all. So that you also get some insight on how to play YOUR Tomb Kings army ;) :

*The lvl 4 + hierotitan + book of ashur really dominates the magic phase. Adding a casket on top of this would be overkill (as has been in my previous games where I always took both). 4 Dice is enough to reliably get BOOSTED smiting & protection of, and 5 to get boosted desication. All other spells I can cast on 2 dice reliably. Requiring fewer dice to cast spells is very good for your hiero as you don't want him to miscast, so this combo essentially has a built-in a earthing rod.

*The hierotitan trumphed the casket. The extra casting is just insane, especially in my area where multiple lvl 2s are more common than lvl 4s. He also supports my army in a better way than the casket would (very handy vs stuff like wraiths, low ld chars/monster and the S6 thunderstomp can turn a battle to my side when used right)

*Lore of death because the signature is better than for lore of nehek or light. Multiple spirit leech is particularily nasty vs some opponents. Alot of spells here also synergise very well with the overall list (doom and darkness + catapults & terror flying monster, or just with "fear" overall. boosted soublight combined with a good amount of shooting and multiple shock-troops like necroknights and chariots).

*Neferra's plaques for the lvl 2 rather than the lvl 4. Several reasons, main one being you want to avoid miscasts for your hierophant. This way you also get the book of ashur on your hiero. Without any real game-breaking spells in lore of nehekara it's not that powerful. A forced spirit leech/soulblight/doom & darkness or especially purple sun could really WIN you the game.

*Destroyer of eternities Tomb King. The king + lvl 2 goes in big archer bunker. This unit becomes a good mop-up unit with the offensive king capabilities. Sometimes I want the hierophant in here also, and then the king needs to be able to protect them. The destroyer of eternities becomes particularly useful against dragons/pegasus heroes/monsters that try to catch them off-guard. He also adds a useful LD10 to spirit leech priest and for reform tests to take care of scouts.

*Necrosphinx. Flying terror fills many roles in any list. Particularly good with Doom and Darkness and killing blow spell.

*I choose to go with this archers setup as it increases effectivness of smiting (non-boosted version) whilst provides me with two redirectors, usually deployed infront of my main archers bunker to avoid them getting stuck in combat.

But... what do you think?

Skipschnitz
06-12-2011, 00:16
*Destroyer of eternities Tomb King. The king + lvl 2 goes in big archer bunker. This unit becomes a good mop-up unit with the offensive king capabilities. Sometimes I want the hierophant in here also, and then the king needs to be able to protect them. The destroyer of eternities becomes particularly useful against dragons/pegasus heroes/monsters that try to catch them off-guard. He also adds a useful LD10 to spirit leech priest and for reform tests to take care of scouts.

*I choose to go with this archers setup as it increases effectivness of smiting (non-boosted version) whilst provides me with two redirectors, usually deployed infront of my main archers bunker to avoid them getting stuck in combat.

But... what do you think?

:( The Liche can't use the King's leadership for Spirit Leech as the spell says to "add their respective UNMODIFIED leadership values."
But since you can't do that, I wonder if there is a way to use the Banner of Discipline to accomplish the same thing since it would be the Liche's leadership boosted? :shifty: I have to find the rules or FAQ for Unmodified leadership.

I don't like the small units as redirectors in 8th edition. Now that you can wipe out a unit and get to reform, it just doesn't make sense to use the small units. The Unstable rules for Undead (and swarms) are just unfair in 8th edition. They should have adopted the Daemonic Instability. What's the point of having an Undead BSB? Losing one less wound to combat is really not that helpful when you're removing models by the handful. I played a 3 game tourney over the weekend and lost every game. I have no problem at all with any of the TK's rules or downsides (except for a few), but the Unstable Rules are just a killer. Not being able to put wounds back on characters is a pain in the butt, as is only being able to heal Constructs by a single wound per turn is another. I didn't realize that they took away the TG as having "magic attacks". Tree-kin and Dryads kicked my ass! :o 30 spearmen with a prince was wiped off the board in one turn...damn ogres. :rolleyes:

I will try the Heirotitans in the next one, and will take 2 caskets. Smiting on a unit of 22 bowmen was really helpful and I'll look into that more by using more units of larger bowmen. Someone suggested putting the bowmen behind units and shooting through them, so that sounded like a great idea. I'm going to look more at using a few more liches other than a Lvl 4 and a Lvl 1. I'm going to take the signature Nehek spell since that will allow me to heal units multiple times. I think I have to look at that spell more of a healing spell (via the attribute) than as a movement/tactical spell. I liked using Ramhotep in my TG with a King, but after you lose the combat, you lose the Frenzy AND you remove models. Damn double whammy. :wtf: ;)
If someone can come up with an army that can compete at venues like Colonial with all the hard cheese of other armies....please let me know. :cheese:

EnternalVoid
06-12-2011, 06:32
For the Spirit Leech;
What he is refuring to about using the King's Ld 10 is the working in the FAQ concerning Unmodified Leadership tests where it ask about when you how to take a Unmodified Leadership tests. GW has been remarkable poor with this FAQ part and while they have revised it, they have not strait out ANSWERED the question.

Basically in that part of the FAQ it says that unmodified Leadership is the highest leadership in the unit *not counting inspiring presence or anything*. Personally I think they need to fix it, as it seemed the intension might have been involving umodified leadership tests, and not unmodified leadership. But as it stands right now, if you have a higher Ld in a unit an are called to use a model's Unmodified Leadership, it is the highest Ld in the unit, even if the single model is lower. So the priest would use the King's Ld10.

Spiney Norman
06-12-2011, 07:33
*Neferra's plaques for the lvl 2 rather than the lvl 4. Several reasons, main one being you want to avoid miscasts for your hierophant. This way you also get the book of ashur on your hiero. Without any real game-breaking spells in lore of nehekara it's not that powerful. A forced spirit leech/soulblight/doom & darkness or especially purple sun could really WIN you the game.

I don't think the plaques do what you think they do. The chance of the plaques getting a double when used by a L2 is only 1/6 so in most of the games you play it will be nothing more than a very expensive power stone. The only wizards that can make use of the plaques properly are L4s because they have the 4 additional dice and can make best use of their ability to cause IF.


*Destroyer of eternities Tomb King. The king + lvl 2 goes in big archer bunker. This unit becomes a good mop-up unit with the offensive king capabilities. Sometimes I want the hierophant in here also, and then the king needs to be able to protect them. The destroyer of eternities becomes particularly useful against dragons/pegasus heroes/monsters that try to catch them off-guard. He also adds a useful LD10 to spirit leech priest and for reform tests to take care of scouts.


The DoE is the most overpriced magic weapon in the game, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. You only have to run a Necrosphinx a few times to understand how woefully overrated HKB is, and the auto-hit option is virtually worthless.

jtrowell
06-12-2011, 10:31
The FAQ about "unmodified leadership" was in response on a question concerning leadership tests.

Moreover, even if you says that the answer is more general that the context of the initial question, this context might imply that this interpretation if for the "unmodified LD" of an *unit*, while the death spell is about the unmodified ld of both *models*

So the same "no modifier from outside the *unit*" would become "no modifier from outside the model" if translated to this context.

TheDrugLordX
06-12-2011, 11:12
Wow, this has come up several times before and I thought it was accepted that unmodified leadership is the highest one in the unit.

Interpreting it in any other way because "it was not intended to be interpreted that way" is stupid. Did you design the game/FAQ or do you actually know EXACTLY what the designer thought when he wrote the rules? I didn't think so. Sure, the question arouse for a unmodified leadership test, but the FAQ explicitly states that the unmodified leadership is, and I quote:

"Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell."

Anyway, this is not the rules section. Untill changed, everyone in my area are playing it this way. And for relevance sake this is what you should have in mind when analysing my list.

Sorry if I stepped on any toes, I did not intend to.

As for the DoE on the king: I reasoned, that even with protective gear, he will die to crumble due to them killing a bunch of archers. Only way to avoid this is by being as killy as possible. DoE is very good vs multi-wound with slow initiative units, and as I stated the DoE is mainly there to handle annoying flying monsters and the like. It also increases the effectivness of the killing blow spell, which otherwise is very poor in a construct heavy list.

As for the sphinx he's not there because of the single HKB ability, which is really poor. It's the T8 tarpit that's interesting, and possible warmachine/character hunter. T8 will also give ANY monster a strugle, even if you don't kill it outright. Killing blow spell however, doubles this chance, is easy to cast and heals him when he starts to crumble! I've tried warsphinxes and they're not doing what I want them to do. Flying T8 terror causing monster is exactly what this list needs.

I could have run all the archers in one unit. But that wouldn't matter since if any decent unit comes into combat with them they will crumble. Sure, they charge a archer unit and then reform, but this is EXACTLY what I want because then I get another round of shooting at them, OR I get to charge and possibly kill them with a unit of knights. If they would last a whole round of combat it would be very bad. Having 2 units means I can do this twice!

Saying all this; I'm not completely sold on the necrosphinx or DoE king, so keep the discussion up :D

Spiney Norman
06-12-2011, 15:33
Wow, this has come up several times before and I thought it was accepted that unmodified leadership is the highest one in the unit.

Interpreting it in any other way because "it was not intended to be interpreted that way" is stupid. Did you design the game/FAQ or do you actually know EXACTLY what the designer thought when he wrote the rules? I didn't think so. Sure, the question arouse for a unmodified leadership test, but the FAQ explicitly states that the unmodified leadership is, and I quote:


I think its fairly clear that the designers had in mind a unit taking an unmodified Ld test when they wrote that, not an individual character model within the unit, otherwise their answer would make no earthly sense.

It all depends whether you like interpreting the rules set in a coherent way to run a game that is enjoyable for everyone or are more bothered about twisting the rules and FAQs in every direction possible to wring as much advantage out of it for yourself as you can.

Brother Jones
08-12-2011, 03:39
Are Ushabti a good choice?

Maoriboy007
08-12-2011, 03:42
Are Ushabti a good choice?

No ;)

Seriously though, no.

Althwen
08-12-2011, 09:50
I never get round to trying out the Ushabti. Every time I'm about to write them down on my armylist, I go for a unit of Necroknights instead.

Arijharn
08-12-2011, 12:18
I think I'm missing the obvious here; but what's the point of Destroyer of Eternities with Charmed Shield, since you can't actually use the shield in combat?

wait, is it so that you purposely take something like cannon shots onto the lord to stop it on a 2+? Does it stop cannon bounce etc?

Enigmatik1
08-12-2011, 13:55
I think I'm missing the obvious here; but what's the point of Destroyer of Eternities with Charmed Shield, since you can't actually use the shield in combat?

wait, is it so that you purposely take something like cannon shots onto the lord to stop it on a 2+? Does it stop cannon bounce etc?

You most certainly can use the Charmed Shield with the Destroyer of Eternities. It is no longer classified as a Great Weapon. ;)

Arijharn
08-12-2011, 14:01
You know... I've had the Army book since it came out and I have never ever noticed that it doesn't actually say Great Weapon. I just read: +2 Strength and my mind fills in the blanks.

I'm such a ***** sometimes. I know, it infuriates me too.

Enigmatik1
08-12-2011, 17:41
Worry not! It took 3 read throughs of the book for it to sink it that it was no longer a Great Weapon! :p

Enigmatik1
08-12-2011, 17:43
No ;)

Seriously though, no.

Ushabti are a perfectly viable choice if you're going for aesthetics. :P I keep hearing people say they work in big units and I don't doubt their reports. I'm just not seeing the advantage of fielding them over Tomb Guard (and therein lies the problem from where I sit).

Maoriboy007
08-12-2011, 19:48
Ushabti are a perfectly viable choice if you're going for aesthetics. :P I keep hearing people say they work in big units and I don't doubt their reports. I'm just not seeing the advantage of fielding them over Tomb Guard (and therein lies the problem from where I sit).Instability means anything apart from the cheapest of chaff needs a real incentive to take them, either in durability and/or functionality. Ushabti just don't have it with T4 and 5+ armour save. Only being able to heal a single wound? Way to Fail GW...
Spend 125 points on a missile unit with a 1 in 3 chance of doing a single str 6 hit? Wow.
I love the models and the concept, but just so terrible in execution. I could see a big bow unit with Khalida (but no Look out sir) but the price just isn't right.

Althwen
12-12-2011, 10:27
New TK FAQ is up.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2120194a_Tomb_Kings_FAQ_Version_1_2_December_2011 .pdf

Some interesting rulings and some strange.

Among others:

Q: If a unit of Skeleton Chariots has models raised into it on the
turn it has charged, are any models raised in that turn counted when
working out the Strength bonus to their Impact Hits? (p38)
A: Yes.

Q: Do Wounds caused by a Thundercrush Attack to friendly
units, or to units outside of the combat, count towards the combat
resolution? (p49)
A: Yes, they will count towards the combat resolution of the
combat that the Khemrian Warsphinx is in.

Q: If a Necrolith Colossus is the targeted by Ptra’s Incantation of
Mighty Smiting, does its bow of the desert gain the Multiple Shot
(2) special rule? (p51)
A: No.

Arijharn
12-12-2011, 10:50
I want them to clarify what the hell 'And the Tomb Kings Rode to War...' actually means more than anything else. I.e., does the Tomb King commandeer another chariot or is he literally just running alongside them (which is a pretty funny mental image imo).

Does anyone actually give their Colossus a bow? With such a crap ballistic skill... and the fact that it apparently doesn't gets multiple shots just makes it even more lacklustre imo

Althwen
12-12-2011, 11:03
Does anyone actually give their Colossus a bow? With such a crap ballistic skill... and the fact that it apparently gets multiple shots just makes it even more lacklustre imo

Nah, absolute waste op ink, putting that upgrade there. However, I was planning on one day fielding a Colossus like that just for the fun of it. But now that they don't benefit from the Multiple shot, I'll not even do that.

Spiney Norman
12-12-2011, 11:25
Are Ushabti a good choice?

In units of 6 or more with great weapons yes they are, in any other config, I'm not feeling it. The problem isn't that Ushabti aren't worth their points, they clearly are, the problem lies in the fact that Necropolis knights are a better deal, cost a similar amount and are also special choices (not to mention that they aren't made of finecrap).


You know... I've had the Army book since it came out and I have never ever noticed that it doesn't actually say Great Weapon. I just read: +2 Strength and my mind fills in the blanks.

I'm such a ***** sometimes. I know, it infuriates me too.

Come on, they've got to be giving us some advantage over the humble GW for those 80pts, HKB isn't worth that much on its own you know.


Ushabti are a perfectly viable choice if you're going for aesthetics. :P I keep hearing people say they work in big units and I don't doubt their reports. I'm just not seeing the advantage of fielding them over Tomb Guard (and therein lies the problem from where I sit).

What do Ushabti have over TG? Higher strength without loss of save, faster movement rate, stomp, option for a shooting attack (ok, I get no-one does that because it sucks, but the option is there).

jtrowell
13-12-2011, 10:17
Also: Ushabtis are immune to stomp and thunderstomp, so an unit with great weapons can be a good monster killer.

Juste compare them to Ironguts, for 7 points more (if I remeber correctly) you get:
- no ogre Charge
- +1WS (the biggest difference, might be worth a few points by itself)
- +1Ld and ItP

You are unstable, but with great weapons you won't lose many fights, and if you do an equivalent IronGuts unit would probably not be steadfast and break.

Sure you can only heal one wound at a time, but Ogres cannot be healed outside their characters (unless you play with the dunce cap and roll for life or something like that)

The main difference I think is that IG can have characters in the unit that greatly increase them by providinc large based models with T5 and great saves to preserve the IG until they get to strike.

Pulstar
13-12-2011, 12:02
Ushabtis, backed by the lore of light buffs are the most killing thing we have in the army.

but that is 870 point investment for unit of 8 with full command (* ubi's and 2 level 4's) which is an all in kind of unit. But supported by two cats and throw a necro in with them (on the side..he shouldn't be hard to keep him safe) and they will do bad things.

Mutter
13-12-2011, 15:46
Would ogres take Ironguts if they weren't sitting in Core?

Or would they rather take
- Mournfangs
- Leadbelchers and
- Maneaters?

:)

EnternalVoid
13-12-2011, 22:09
Would ogres take Ironguts if they weren't sitting in Core?

Or would they rather take
- Mournfangs
- Leadbelchers and
- Maneaters?

:)

To answer your question, Sometimes. Not all the times, not most, not even necessarily often, but sometimes. You would do it for the same reason that high elves sometimes take Silver Helms over Dragon Princes, and that is primarily when you want what they have and you want a fair number of them. Maneaters are just to expensive for a large unit outside a deathstar approach and even then it is still massive. So you would see them alot less, but you would still seem them from time to time.

Mutter
14-12-2011, 11:53
To answer your question, Sometimes. Not all the times, not most, not even necessarily often, but sometimes. You would do it for the same reason that high elves sometimes take Silver Helms over Dragon Princes, and that is primarily when you want what they have and you want a fair number of them. Maneaters are just to expensive for a large unit outside a deathstar approach and even then it is still massive. So you would see them alot less, but you would still seem them from time to time.

It was more a rhetorical question answering the comparison between ushabti and ironguts. :)

I think ironguts are good - in core - but in the elite section, there are better things. Maneaters for versatility, 'fangs for raw power.

As a Khemrian, I would take ushabti. If they were core.
As they aren't, there are better things to spent my points on. Warsphinx, nekro-knights, etc.

That was my point.

Enigmatik1
14-12-2011, 13:42
It was more a rhetorical question answering the comparison between ushabti and ironguts. :)

I think ironguts are good - in core - but in the elite section, there are better things. Maneaters for versatility, 'fangs for raw power.

As a Khemrian, I would take ushabti. If they were core.
As they aren't, there are better things to spent my points on. Warsphinx, nekro-knights, etc.

That was my point.

Hrm...a core comprised of chariots and ushabti? I think I could get used to that...lol.

Althwen
15-12-2011, 13:48
Hrm...a core comprised of chariots and ushabti? I think I could get used to that...lol.

But where would we hide our Hierophant? :P

Enigmatik1
15-12-2011, 16:43
Let's see...

I'd have two options as I see it:

1) In a unit of Skeleton Archers where he usually goes (either foot or mounted...doesn't matter).
2) In my Tomb Guard unit with the [overpriced] Cloak of the Dunes so he can GTFO when I need him to (which I did often under the old book).

Speaking of the Cloak of the Dunes, I've considered running it again (for yucks...not competitive in the slightest) on a Prince armed with just a GW as a kamikaze unit of sorts. He flies over your units inflicting random hits (albeit at S2) and if you kill him, you suffer The Curse. I'd run him in conjunction with Prince Apoo-poo, a HLP, a huge block of infernal Skeleton Warriors, 2 SSCs, a Casket and a pair of Warsphinxes and some Stalkers and just drop templates/ranged attacks everywhere (even Skullstorm if I roll it).

Maoriboy007
15-12-2011, 18:49
Also: Ushabtis are immune to stomp and thunderstomp, so an unit with great weapons can be a good monster killer.
Juste compare them to Ironguts, for 7 points more (if I remeber correctly) you get:
- no ogre Charge
- +1WS (the biggest difference, might be worth a few points by itself)
- +1Ld and ItP
You are unstable, but with great weapons you won't lose many fights, and if you do an equivalent IronGuts unit would probably not be steadfast and break.
Sure you can only heal one wound at a time, but Ogres cannot be healed outside their characters (unless you play with the dunce cap and roll for life or something like that)
The main difference I think is that IG can have characters in the unit that greatly increase them by providinc large based models with T5 and great saves to preserve the IG until they get to strike.The problem is that the more expensive the model , the more of a penalty crumbling becomes.
Even with GWs, ushabti will still lose combats , they are still only T4 with a low armour save, which is not dissimilar to IGs but wounds they take get doubled.
The heal 1 wound per turn is just silly in that sense, there is a good reason no one really takes them. Even without Warcats and Necroknights they wouldn't get seen much.


Let's see...

I'd have two options as I see it:

1) In a unit of Skeleton Archers where he usually goes (either foot or mounted...doesn't matter).
2) In my Tomb Guard unit with the [overpriced] Cloak of the Dunes so he can GTFO when I need him to (which I did often under the old book).

Speaking of the Cloak of the Dunes, I've considered running it again (for yucks...not competitive in the slightest) on a Prince armed with just a GW as a kamikaze unit of sorts. He flies over your units inflicting random hits (albeit at S2) and if you kill him, you suffer The Curse. I'd run him in conjunction with Prince Apoo-poo, a HLP, a huge block of infernal Skeleton Warriors, 2 SSCs, a Casket and a pair of Warsphinxes and some Stalkers and just drop templates/ranged attacks everywhere (even Skullstorm if I roll it).

YEah, with chariot core mounted in Horsemen makes sense

God the Cloak of Dunes is terrible this edition. THey made it weaker and more expensive.

...Prince Apoo-poo...Hilarious :D

Enigmatik1
15-12-2011, 19:26
...Prince Apoo-poo...Hilarious :D

You like that one? Remember, the "Dunce Cap" was mine too...maybe I should break that out again for yucks too!

EDIT: A quickly thrown together list...

HLP
L4
Talisman of Preseravation
Channeling Staff

Prince Apoo-poo

TP
GW
Cloak of the Dunes

39 Skeleton Warriors
FC

19 Skeleton Archers
Mus

3 Chariots
Mus/STD
Eternal Flame

Warcat
Roar

Warcat
Roar

3 Stalkers

Casket

2x SSC

I generally don't condone ranged lists...at all. But I'm even I might have to break continuity to run this. I considered swapping the Warriors for Archers and the Archers for Horse Archers. Everything save the Warriors has a ranged attack and there are a ton of templates to throw around. Bumping up to 2.5K, would see the inclusion of Horse Archers, 10 more Warriors and another unit of Stalkers most likely. The Prince starts off in the Skeleton Warriors but leaves the unit to fly over choice targets. Apoo-poo Wizard hunts. Both explode horribly when slain, as does the Casket...which I'd probably move into a choice position, if possible to blow more things up.

BANZAI!

Pulstar
16-12-2011, 13:26
I stand by the fact that UBI hit the hardest out of all of the TK units. They can pack in 6 ST 6 attack (+ a stomp) on a 40 cm front.

Tomb guard can only get 4 STR 5 attacks on the same front. The tomb guard are exactly the same when it comes to survivability. (same WS, T and AS). Add two attacks if TG is in horde formation, but you end up with a wider front.

Now Ubi's aren't perfect. Not being able to take a small magic banner is one thing that should have been added. But they hit like a ton of bricks. Have easy access to a 6+ reg save, are a bit faster then TG, can't be stomped, aren't nearly as vulnerable to template weapons.

And if you can get the ward save, or Pha's on them they the can easily last a round of combat so they can hit back. Or if you get Timewarp/speed of light on them....ouch time for the other guy

What the Ubi can't do is take an elite unit head on. (TG have the same problem) The good news is that we have the Sphinx who excel at taking these kind of units on.

Think of Ubi as higher risk vs higher reward. And the best advice to to try them before you write them off.

Stymie Jackson
16-12-2011, 15:29
The problems with Ushabti are the same as Ogres before their new book and tasty point drops.

You have the same real estate as 4 20mm models. You cost about as much as 4 elite 20mm models (4 Tomb Guard are 52 points with halberds, 4 dwarf hammerers are 48 points, etc). But you end up with one less attack and one less wound for roughly the same space and cost.

8 Ushabti is 400 whopping points. By comparison, that's about the cost of 30 Tomb Guard (let's stick with the TK book for comparisons...if interested, check out Black Orcs and GW Dwarf Warriors on your own for similar results).

24 wounds vs 30 wounds. Advantage TG.
24 attacks vs 30 attacks (if you horde). Advantage TG.

Granted, the frontage on a horded TG unit is a bit larger (100 vs 80mm is not earthshattering, at worst you end up with 24 vs 24 attacks and the TG still have the wound advantage) but you see where I am going here. That 25% extra wounds and attacks makes a massive difference in a grinder fight. Ushabti just can't hang in a fight that goes a bit longer. Sure, the Ushabti can have S6 to S5 for the TG and+1 AS, but against many opponents that doesn't make a massive difference, and as units get ground down not swingning last is pretty key.

Ushabti do have stomp, but 4 S4 hits aren't enough to change the calculus. If they made them base S5 and halberds instead of 2 handers? If they let them get more healing? If If If...

That said, I've proxied 3x8 units of Ushabti with bows after someone told me about seeing that in a tourney. It's pretty hillarious and fun and not terribly uncompetitive. But for points per wound/attack, a horded infantry unit is better generally speaking. I like Ushabti, but as I stated in other TK threads I play TK and Dwarf armies mainly, and 40 Dwarves with GW cost the same as 8 Ushabti. The 40 Dwarves win pretty much every single time, even with a few buffs on the Ushabti. 40 wounds vs 24 is just too much to handle. In many games, the same points in Tomb Guard actually win that combat.

I have NOT rolled with Ushabti against WoC. They may do better against those heavily armored, hard hitting but low model count Chaos Warrior units (don't go near Marauders tho, pincushion those nudist perverts). Ushabti also work against people who run their units with small frontage so the Ushabti can actually get more attacks then their enemy, but the low wound per model/point cost is bad news when:

1) You suffer from instability
2) You can't heal properly
3) You can't take SoTUL to boost healing without doing something silly like putting a BSB in the unit that can't get an Look Out Sir roll!

When Tomb Guard only suffer from number 1. Then again, I am totally biased by Tomb Guard. I love those ugly little blinged out mummies.

Skywave
16-12-2011, 19:59
8 Ushabti is 400 whopping points. By comparison, that's about the cost of 30 Tomb Guard (let's stick with the TK book for comparisons...if interested, check out Black Orcs and GW Dwarf Warriors on your own for similar results).

24 wounds vs 30 wounds. Advantage TG.
24 attacks vs 30 attacks (if you horde). Advantage TG.

The thing here is that usually, is you want to go horde, you'll want more than the bare mimimum number of models, at least that's what I want to do most of the time.

And not to forget that I've rarely seen 30 Tomb Guards on their own, there's always one or two characters in there to buff them up, driving the point cost up. Otherwise, unsuppored they have WS3 compared to the WS4 of the Ushabti, wich is a quite decent advantage.


Granted, the frontage on a horded TG unit is a bit larger (100 vs 80mm is not earthshattering, at worst you end up with 24 vs 24 attacks and the TG still have the wound advantage) but you see where I am going here.

I think you mean 200mm versus 160mm of frontage :p And as you noted elsewere, even versus smaller 5-wide units, the Ushabti can get all of their attacks into the fight (worst case, you'll get 6 out of 8 models attacking).


That 25% extra wounds and attacks makes a massive difference in a grinder fight. Ushabti just can't hang in a fight that goes a bit longer. Sure, the Ushabti can have S6 to S5 for the TG and+1 AS, but against many opponents that doesn't make a massive difference, and as units get ground down not swingning last is pretty key.

The wounds are indead a big advantage to the Tomb Guards here, not doubt about it. But I see S6 as much better than S5, mainly because there' a lot of T4 troops out there were it'll make a difference, not counting the extra -1 to the armor save.

In the end I think they have some advantages over each other, but the Ushabti are capable of playing a support role to the main line since they don't need characters with them, and benefit litlle from healing so you can deploy them farther on the flank. They are poorer than Tomb Guards if you try to have them fill the same role, but I think they still work and have their uses. They are flawed for sure, but not unusable.

abdulaapocolyps
16-12-2011, 21:29
Hi all.just a general observation or two from a guy about to start up tks.
First,I'm a bit disappointed in this thread.tk strike me as a subtle army and some of the post are outstanding!a LOT though seem to be people moaning that tks either A-can't beat overpowered cheese lists and b-you can't win with a list.
If you could beat a cheesy old lists,tk would be unbalanced.its good you can't,its a step.in the right direction.
By win with lists I mean you can't write a list and win, you have to play the game well.some op lists armies don't require this,tk don't have such lists,its great!
Ogre seems easy to play if you like unsubtle armies,they could be more fun for u.
Secondly for fluff reasons I'm having a tk,prob with a big unit of skellis,and the heroic killing blow weapon.what other item would you give him?
Would a bodyguard with a ward help him survive or is that a waste?
Cheers all!

Skywave
17-12-2011, 01:25
For a Tomb King wit DoE, you won't have much for protection, but there's still a few things you can get. The Enchanted Shield to get a 4+ save, good for all those S3 or S4 attacks from enemy rank and files. The Opal Amulet could be good too if you expect to face more elite infantry or other characters. The Other Trickster Shard is good to get those wounds through the enemy ward save, or maybe you could get a potion of speed/toughness if you prefer.

Getting a Herald to protect him is a much more pricy investment, so it'll depend on how much you want to spend to protect your King. If you have around 100pts to spend on him, then it could definitly help, because even if the enemy target the Herald instead, it still protect your King.

skirder
17-12-2011, 02:42
I don't know about you guys, but i've found the warsphinxes to die too fast/not have enough damage output to validate the points. my lists have no monsters (except sometimes the +d3 to your cast). warmachines are just too powerful in 8th. not to mention ridiculous magic

Glenn87
17-12-2011, 20:16
hey, I've got a quick question for the Tomb King players. I'm playing O&G, and when checking the army lists discussed in the O&G topic (and army list forum), it struck me that people don't upgrade musicians or champions anymore.

Now this probally has something to do, with their cost being generalised to 10-15 points (I think TK have it too?).

So I was wondering, do you guys upgrade the command groups, or just the banner, or nothing at all?

Enigmatik1
17-12-2011, 23:26
It depends on the unit.

Skeleton Archers usually just get a musician, as do Horse Archers if I bunker a LP there.

Skeleton Warriors and Tomb Guard get Full Command.

Chariots get Musician and Standard Bearer. I only include a Champion here if I don't put a King or Prince in the unit.

NecroKnights get a simple Standard Bearer.

I include no command options with Ushabti. Although, I've been tempted to include a Champion on several occasions but haven't yet.

Skywave
18-12-2011, 07:03
I use musician mainly on unit that can shoot, or if I was using really big unit like 6-8 Necro Knights or Chariots for exemple. Champions can be usefull in a number of units, especially if you have a character around. Ushabti and Necro Knights can get one if I have the points to spare, and Skeleton Warriors/Archers can also get one to slow down characters (even if I don't have my own character in there). Banners are pretty usefull all around, mainly for combat units but Archer will get them too, though I could cut them if I really need the points elsewere.

herohammer
18-12-2011, 07:14
I don't know about you guys, but i've found the warsphinxes to die too fast/not have enough damage output to validate the points. my lists have no monsters (except sometimes the +d3 to your cast). warmachines are just too powerful in 8th. not to mention ridiculous magicif the majority of your metagame is gunlines leave them at home but outside of like cracks call, purple sun, and I guess the big version of amber spear there isn't much magic that does much damage to sphinxes.

Anything that scatters will scatter off much more often than not and you only have trouble passing an I test because of high S and T so the only things coming at you should be I tests or a huge volume of nukes from other lores. Even the S6 lore of heavens nukes only wound on a 6. It takes a lot of magic to bring to down a big cat.

Empire, dwarfs, and rats (if they run 2 cannons) can wreck them but against every other army in the game warsphinxes are very good from what I have seen.

friendsofrhomb
18-12-2011, 08:32
I think ushabtis are good as a unit of 4, used as a support unit for those crappy combat units of ours, like melee skellies.

I really wish they had put a special necrotect char in that allowed you to take them as core though, because they are beautiful models

Althwen
19-12-2011, 10:42
hey, I've got a quick question for the Tomb King players. I'm playing O&G, and when checking the army lists discussed in the O&G topic (and army list forum), it struck me that people don't upgrade musicians or champions anymore.

Now this probally has something to do, with their cost being generalised to 10-15 points (I think TK have it too?).

So I was wondering, do you guys upgrade the command groups, or just the banner, or nothing at all?

I upgrade all my skeleton, TG, Chariot units and Necroknights with champions. they're a real bargain for being the first model to get revived in the unit and subsequently being able to Challenge-lock any big nasties that come swooping towards your heavyhitters to knock them out.

Standards for all of them as well, because that little extra point of combat resolution can go a long way when you find yourself in need of a charge without being able to back them up any time soon.

Since my Necroknights go Ebts most of the time and pop up behind enemy lines, they need all the combat resolution they can get.

Musicians are a must on my main archers block. But my 10-man archer drop, doesn't get one.
My chariots only get a musician if I run them 4+
In the case of running chariots in multiple ranks, you may find yourself down a model or two from your second rank and the remaining model doesn't grant you +1 on impact hits, nor impact hits itself. So then it's time for a quick reform and still be able to shoot :D

Althwen
19-12-2011, 10:46
I don't know about you guys, but i've found the warsphinxes to die too fast/not have enough damage output to validate the points. my lists have no monsters (except sometimes the +d3 to your cast). warmachines are just too powerful in 8th. not to mention ridiculous magic

I agree partly with what you say, but it's all about placement for Warsphinxes. A couple of games back I was ready to do away with them because they always got shot down. But that was when I was still running (shambling) towards the enemy instead of biding my time and using the warsphinx as a countermethod. Charging them into white lions is the greatest thing there is. 'Waddya mean 6's to wound? I have strength 6!!'

So hang back with your warsphinx and try to protect him with cover or skeleton drops in fron of him. He's worth protecting.

skirder
19-12-2011, 19:08
you only have trouble passing an I test because of high S and T so the only things coming at you should be I tests


not too much trouble, actually...

BRB pg 10 (characteristic tests [not word for word, btw]): models and units take their characteristic tests on the highest value if more than one is available

aka, they take the test at I3, not I1 :D merry christmas!


try to protect him with cover or skeleton drops in fron of him

With true line of site, the skittles don't actually protect him from much. other than being charged.

Also, my main issue is that the armies i face the most are VC and OnG.

VC uses the geist, ethereal units, or poison ghouls against him
OnG uses 30+ poison shots from the goblins as well as 4+ war machines.

These are actually the only two armies i've played with my tomb kings, lol

herohammer
20-12-2011, 00:47
Also, my main issue is that the armies i face the most are VC and OnG.

VC uses the geist, ethereal units, or poison ghouls against him
OnG uses 30+ poison shots from the goblins as well as 4+ war machines.

These are actually the only two armies i've played with my tomb kings, lolDoes the goblin guy run the poison banner on a bsb in the archers or just buff them with the spell?

Althwen
20-12-2011, 11:36
With true line of site, the skittles don't actually protect him from much. other than being charged.

Also, my main issue is that the armies i face the most are VC and OnG.

VC uses the geist, ethereal units, or poison ghouls against him
OnG uses 30+ poison shots from the goblins as well as 4+ war machines.

These are actually the only two armies i've played with my tomb kings, lol


My experience against both those armies is rather limited.

But don't forget that shooting at the Sphinx behind skellies gives the opponent a to hit modifier at least.
Can't help with those stupidly annoying Doom divers though.

Von Wibble
20-12-2011, 13:07
Tbh the Warsphinx doesn't really shine vs VC and OG. It is made to deal with elite units, who generally rely on S5 and 6 to kill stuff. For this reason it works best against elves, WoC and DoC, as they have very little (witch elves aside) as anobvious counter, and also very little high strength non magic shooting.

Casket of souls seems a good bet against those OG war machines. Isn't the poisoned shooting rather short ranged?

skirder
20-12-2011, 16:48
range is crap... 24", i want to say. And he uses both, giving them poisoned on a 5+. Doom Divers don't bother the cat much. If they are dropper those on it, then they AREN'T hitting anything else, and they are d6 s5 hits, i want to say? still needs sixes. I understand hiding behind the skittles for a modifier, but when you have that many shots, enough are going to get through :p

w3rm
21-12-2011, 05:12
Isn't the sphinx a large target?

oldWitheredCorpse
21-12-2011, 14:34
range is crap... 24", i want to say. And he uses both, giving them poisoned on a 5+. Doom Divers don't bother the cat much. If they are dropper those on it, then they AREN'T hitting anything else, and they are d6 s5 hits, i want to say? still needs sixes. I understand hiding behind the skittles for a modifier, but when you have that many shots, enough are going to get through :p

Goblins use short bows and only have range 16" (or is it 18"?). It's certainly not 24" anyway. Basically, this means that goblin archers should be out of range even after marching 8" towards you (if you deploy just a little bit closer to the board edge) - and besides marching and shooting is not allowed, so marching would forfeit a round of shooting.

Stymie Jackson
21-12-2011, 18:51
Isn't the sphinx a large target?

Large target means you can't claim cover from obstructions. So a kitty or giant can't stand next to a fence and claim a cover bonus for protecting his ankles.

As long as HALF or more of the unit is screened it can claim a cover save. There's a neat little picture early in the BRB that shows this with an empire army and normal giant. The giant actually uses a building.

Depending on the angle, cavalry, ushabti and other taller troops may screen a giant. It's all down to true LOS and bird's eye view of the shooters. I doubt skeleton infantry will screen 50% of a kitty or giant unless they are right in the shooters face, and the shooters are shorter.

skirder
21-12-2011, 18:52
It's 18", i checked...
He's usually not hitting me with them until turn 2-3...
he also uses an exploding mage... anyways, even when i hold him back, he usually doesn't reach combat

Crovax20
23-12-2011, 18:07
I'm still of the opinion poison is a bit dumb in warhammer, stonekilling poison! Or do skinks and goblins have acces to copious amounts of holy water?

Anyhow, using a warsphinx against an army that can throw a huge pile of poisoned shooting attacks isn't the best idea I suppose. Try deploying the warsphinx somewhere the archers won't be able to reach, 18 inch isn't too great. Best bet is just tryin to avoid walking into their line of fire. Stuff with entombed can also help, but can only be charging on turn 3... so not so great.

skirder
07-01-2012, 20:40
Just have to say, our colossus are amazing! two of them killed a 40 man horde of black orcs and only died once it was down to just the bsb and the warboss!

Spiney Norman
07-01-2012, 20:49
I'm still of the opinion poison is a bit dumb in warhammer, stonekilling poison! Or do skinks and goblins have acces to copious amounts of holy water?

Anyhow, using a warsphinx against an army that can throw a huge pile of poisoned shooting attacks isn't the best idea I suppose. Try deploying the warsphinx somewhere the archers won't be able to reach, 18 inch isn't too great. Best bet is just tryin to avoid walking into their line of fire. Stuff with entombed can also help, but can only be charging on turn 3... so not so great.

Of course they do, skinks regularly empty their slanns bedpans into the holy water bucket and goblins can boil up mushrooms into a concoction that can corrode literally anything.

Anyhow I was thinking that we might look a bit closer at the named characters in the TK book, which ones do folks use or consider worth using.

For me, Arkhan looks ok if you're looking to free yourself from the lore of nehekhara and Settra has performed well for me. I'm not sure about Khatep, he looks a little bit overpriced for what he can do.

Khalida sits in her own private league of crapness unless you're able to field at least 100 archers in one unit so her abilities actually become worthwhile.

I can't say I see much application at all for the hero choices, I suppose ramhotep might be useful, but I can't see him surviving long in the front rank of any unit in combat.

skirder
07-01-2012, 21:19
Rhamotep is good if you only field one unit of constructs and that unit happens to be necro knights. you feild him in a unit of tg with a prince/king and keep them near your archers as a counter charging unit. extra attack and rerolling 3+ to hit tg are pretty tasty.

the grand heirophant can be pretty good. Loremaster and the ability to reroll one spell per turn is pretty cool, but i'll usually take a lvl 4 over him, as it is 100 pts less, usually.

The black is pretty cool, as he is always level 5 unless you remove that item. being a tk is cool as he has boosted stats and can benefit from the bsb (if you take one).

haven't used any of the others yet.

gdsora
07-01-2012, 21:42
Of course they do, skinks regularly empty their slanns bedpans into the holy water bucket and goblins can boil up mushrooms into a concoction that can corrode literally anything.

Anyhow I was thinking that we might look a bit closer at the named characters in the TK book, which ones do folks use or consider worth using.
.

Grand Hiero Khatep.

No if ands or buts.

His scroll is hit or miss, matters what wizards you are facing.
Loremaster I love.

But...that STAFF 1 re-roll a turn for casting dice?
Good Bye Irresistible force (if you didnt want it)!
Good Bye failed cast roll!
Good Bye really weak roll!

That is a godsend

skirder
07-01-2012, 21:46
i usually let weak rolls pass, as the reroll might get an irresistible or a failed cast. let them waste their dispel dice, i'll save my reroll for a more detrimental throw.

gdsora
07-01-2012, 21:49
i usually let weak rolls pass, as the reroll might get an irresistible or a failed cast. let them waste their dispel dice, i'll save my reroll for a more detrimental throw.

Its only if I like just make the casting value of the spell, and I REALLY need the spell to be harder to dispel


Small questions.

Do people like Heralds?
They got a points decrease, +1A, and the ability to take a wound for a King/Prince, but I still hate taking them. I love having the Battle Standard, but i really don't like heralds.

Same thing with Necrotects love the unit wide hatred, but I dont find 6+ regen for constructs useful nor their mediocre combat ability and T4/2, Flammable and light armor means they go down quickly.

maybe I just like princes too much.
cheap with good survivability, good combat ability, and good utility.

Maybe princes are too cheap when compared to Heralds/Necrotects

Spiney Norman
08-01-2012, 08:16
Its only if I like just make the casting value of the spell, and I REALLY need the spell to be harder to dispel


Small questions.

Do people like Heralds?
They got a points decrease, +1A, and the ability to take a wound for a King/Prince, but I still hate taking them. I love having the Battle Standard, but i really don't like heralds.

Same thing with Necrotects love the unit wide hatred, but I dont find 6+ regen for constructs useful nor their mediocre combat ability and T4/2, Flammable and light armor means they go down quickly.

maybe I just like princes too much.
cheap with good survivability, good combat ability, and good utility.

Maybe princes are too cheap when compared to Heralds/Necrotects

I'm not really a fan of heralds or necrotects. Buying them magic items to provide a decent defence is both costly and means you don't have those items available for your royal characters, plus spending 50pts on magic armour for a herald/BSB/necrotect doesn't seem like a good use of pts to me.

Add to this that the BSB is only really worth it's costs if you lose your hierophant (which I usually hope isn't going to happen). The necrotect and herald SCs both have the problem that they have no meaningful save and are designed for frontline combat. T4 and 2W really doesn't go very far in 8th ed melee and given our low Int across the board, I'd say it's pretty unlikely a necrotect will ever be alive when it's his units turn to strike.

herohammer
08-01-2012, 09:58
Heralds have specific uses like carrying flaming banner for the khalida archer deathstar list or giving extra wounds to a king with the Destroyer of Eternities. You can go king, command, and a prince in rank 1 and the herald hides rank 2 with armor of destiny and shield absorbing wounds from the king.

Someone did the math awhile ago and Ramhotep makes necro knights the most resilient unit in the entire game for their points cost.

Since hatred only works round 1 anyway if you go horde vs 5 wide you can keep the necro alive for the first round when he matters. I have had mixed results with regular necrotects though myself.

Naley
08-01-2012, 11:01
I am building a 1500 pts list to game with in the local shop. Maybe what to ad for a 2000 pts battle. Pretty new to the gaming bit so would like some help from you tk veterans:)

Have aprox. 6000 pts(With upgrades of course:rolleyes:) to choose from.

The base of the army is:

Khalida 365 pts
Archers X50 (musician, light Armour) 360 pts One big horde unit ?
Liche Priest(lvl 2, Lore Of Nehkara) 105 pts Need input on magic items.


This is 830 pts... 670 pts left to choose for.

Need som hitting power for the last points.

Spiney Norman
08-01-2012, 13:47
I am building a 1500 pts list to game with in the local shop. Maybe what to ad for a 2000 pts battle. Pretty new to the gaming bit so would like some help from you tk veterans:)

Have aprox. 6000 pts(With upgrades of course:rolleyes:) to choose from.

The base of the army is:

Khalida 365 pts
Archers X50 (musician, light Armour) 360 pts One big horde unit ?
Liche Priest(lvl 2, Lore Of Nehkara) 105 pts Need input on magic items.


This is 830 pts... 670 pts left to choose for.

Need som hitting power for the last points.

No, you need more archers. Unless you're fielding them in units of 100 Khalida is the most overpriced lord in the game. Currently you are paying 7pts per archer to give them poison, that is not an efficient use of pts.

For the rest of your points, another 50 archers (drop the armour, an AS of 6 is meaningless even if you are being hit by str 3) then think about a warsphinx or necropolis knights. One level 2 wizard will not do anything either, you either need a second so you can use all your casting dice and actually get some spells off, or drop the second level to give you more points to play with.

Another idea would be a BSB herald with the banner of eternal flame to further boost those archers.

gdsora
08-01-2012, 19:01
I'm not really a fan of heralds or necrotects. Buying them magic items to provide a decent defence is both costly and means you don't have those items available for your royal characters, plus spending 50pts on magic armour for a herald/BSB/necrotect doesn't seem like a good use of pts to me.

Add to this that the BSB is only really worth it's costs if you lose your hierophant (which I usually hope isn't going to happen). The necrotect and herald SCs both have the problem that they have no meaningful save and are designed for frontline combat. T4 and 2W really doesn't go very far in 8th ed melee and given our low Int across the board, I'd say it's pretty unlikely a necrotect will ever be alive when it's his units turn to strike.


Cool, I was always wondering If i was the only one who thought this. I absolutely love the idea's they tried to implement with Necrotects and Heralds. I just feel like they could've been better. (well maybe not heralds...I would kill for a prince to be a bsb...)

skirder
09-01-2012, 15:39
No, you need more archers. Unless you're fielding them in units of 100 Khalida is the most overpriced lord in the game. Currently you are paying 7pts per archer to give them poison, that is not an efficient use of pts.

For the rest of your points, another 50 archers (drop the armour, an AS of 6 is meaningless even if you are being hit by str 3) then think about a warsphinx or necropolis knights. One level 2 wizard will not do anything either, you either need a second so you can use all your casting dice and actually get some spells off, or drop the second level to give you more points to play with.

Another idea would be a BSB herald with the banner of eternal flame to further boost those archers.

poison and upping their hits to 50% instead of 33.3333%. still way overcosted, but much better.

Spiney Norman
09-01-2012, 17:45
poison and upping their hits to 50% instead of 33.3333%. still way overcosted, but much better.

Yes, that's true, but I daresay another 365pts of archers would probably be better value. In a unit of 100 archers you are only paying 3.5pts for the bonus per archer, which is much more sensible (actually that does seem a pretty good deal, perhaps there is a happy middle ground, i'd probably pay 4pts per model for the bonus khalida brings) The only problem there is that you have to paint 100 archers.

It's a shame they didn't give her the MWBD rule as well, and either regen or a ward save so you could take her into combat, then she might actually be worth her price tag.

TheDrugLordX
09-01-2012, 17:57
Poison should have been an upgrade for archers (4pts per model?) instead of a stupid SC limitation...

oldWitheredCorpse
09-01-2012, 17:57
Khalida's fighting prowess is funny in the way that she's great at putting at least one wound on anything (before saves), before they get to do anything, but then she's usually done for. She'd do OK against witch-elves and ghouls - anything S3 that relies on poison. But she used to be much. much tougher in combat for just slightly more points.

She can get a bodyguard, though.

skirder
09-01-2012, 19:42
i wouldn't take her with less than 90 or so, personally

vinny t
10-01-2012, 04:40
Anyone had any experience spamming ushabti? This list seems somewhat competitive to me, and may just throw your opponent for a loop.

Liche High Priest w/ earthing rod
Liche Priest with dispel scroll and Lore of Light
Necrotect with charmed shield
Necrotect

4 units of 10 archers (or 2 units of 10 and 1 of 20)
2 units of 3 chariots with standard, one standard is the flaming banner

8 Ushabti with Gws and full command
8 Ushabti with GWs and full command

Necrosphinx
Necrosphinx

2500 points

Basically, the necrotects go with the ushabti, which is really risky but whatever. These units are crazy deadly if they get to attack. Meanwhile, the necrosphinges just tarpit units the ushabti cant handle while trying to kill as many characters as possible.

skirder
10-01-2012, 08:55
There are a few problems with this idea.

first is initiative. the necrotect will almost always die before the ushabti strike. with tg at I3, we can get around this against a few armies, but with asl ushabti, not so much.

Second is survivability. A unit of 8 ushabti has 24 wounds, T4 and 5+ armor. for the same price you can get nearly 30 wounds of tg with the same safe, better buffs (necrotect and tk/tp buff these squads more as well as more effectively than they would ushabti). on top of that, you can usually buff the tg 2+ times per magic phase. that's 4-8+ wounds back per turn, while the ushabti only get one.

Third is killyness. Like i said earlier, you will probably not get your hatred, and t4 5+ save isn't going to stop many wounds. you WILL be losing quite a few attacks before you get to strike back. you get s6, which is better than the tg s5, but the tg will usually have more attacks, are more likely to get their hatred, and can benefit from mwbd more effectively.

fourth and final is movement. Part of your plan is to decide what they will and will not attack based on what they can and can't handle. our army's movement makes dwarves look fast. we have the spell, yes, but anyone can decide to dispel one spell in the magic phase. If you are moving forward to get in combat, most enemies will be able to get in contact with what they want. we have the ability to regrow our ranks to combat this, but not with constructs.

Spiney Norman
10-01-2012, 12:17
I only really use Ushabti in smaller units (usually 4) and send them in against things that don't constitute a major risk to them. I can send them in against night goblins or empire state troops, or even elf spearmen/seaguard/corsairs and expect them to do fairly well. When you get to the point of spending 400-500pts on a single unit you need it to be able to handle the kind of units that Ushabti just aren't equipped to do like chaos warriors/chosen/swordsmasters/black orcs/white lions etc.

Usbahti suffer from being outclassed in virtually every aspect by Necropolis knights

gdsora
10-01-2012, 15:35
Anyone had any experience spamming ushabti? This list seems somewhat competitive to me, and may just throw your opponent for a loop.

8 Ushabti with Gws and full command
8 Ushabti with GWs and full command



I find Ushabti's T4 5+ Save to be just too soft to almost all ranged attacks.
Of course I usually play against DE, Empire and Lizards.
So Armor Piercing, Black powder weapons, and Poison just trash T4 5+. I have to dance my ushabti to avoid quick death.

Any Str 4 Magic is also a problem.


IF constructs could gain MORE THEN 1 wound a turn. I would say take ushabti. But I get tired of having half strength units when they finally reach combat.

skirder
10-01-2012, 18:50
IF constructs could gain MORE THEN 1 wound a turn. I would say take ushabti. But I get tired of having half strength units when they finally reach combat.

this.

I think it's the biggest issue with ALL constructs. Tehy are just so much more of a risk because of it. You could spend the points on things that will actually come back. That being said, other than the Ushabti, most constructs add enough hitting power/survivability to make it worth taking them anyways.

TheDrugLordX
11-01-2012, 21:21
this.

I think it's the biggest issue with ALL constructs. Tehy are just so much more of a risk because of it. You could spend the points on things that will actually come back. That being said, other than the Ushabti, most constructs add enough hitting power/survivability to make it worth taking them anyways.

This is so true.

My best success, so far, have been when I try to synchronize my magic with the rest of my list as much as possible. Essentially, I've narrowed it down to 2 main ways to construct my army list:

1) High Level Wizard with lore of nehekara + hierotitan + chariots/archers/tomb guard/monster-sized-constructs
2) Several low lvl wizards with lore of light/death + casket of souls + lesser-constructs

Ofcourse, these are only the general guidelines I use when creating lists. How they assemble varies depending on other details, but overall the above 2 major compositions have given me most synergy (and thus best performance) out of my army.

Spiney Norman
13-01-2012, 08:28
this.

I think it's the biggest issue with ALL constructs. Tehy are just so much more of a risk because of it. You could spend the points on things that will actually come back. That being said, other than the Ushabti, most constructs add enough hitting power/survivability to make it worth taking them anyways.

In all honesty I don't see it as much of an issue. I've kind of lost faith in the TK magic phase, at least in the lore of nehekhara so I never expect to do very much raising. A single L2 is generally all I bring with the LoN and then a second L2 with either light or death. If I'm feeling particularly anti-LoN I might just use Arkhan.

moeep
13-01-2012, 09:23
i made quite good experiences with a lvl 4 when ever i can play him ^^
especialy with smiting and decceration.
the raising from our lore is just the iceing on the cake.
sure it can tip the scale but most of the time you will only get 4-5lp per magicphase.
i would suggest to use 1lvl 4 and 2lvl2 in a 2,5k game
the lvl 4 obviously has to use nehek but those lvl 2 can be used with either with lore of light or death which will give u either access to some very nice buff's or some seriuos hexes and sniper-spells
(i would suggest if u want to snipe dont use 2lvl2 rather use 2 or 3 lvl 1)

which i wouldnot suggest is attacking a horde of 30Chaoswarriors with halberds, rage standart, mark of nurgel and a chaosgeneral with 40skeleton warriors(prince included) and a nekrosphinx. turned pretty bad for me-.-( bad magicphase) luckily my tombguard was nearby and was able to get them right after they finished my poor little skellies-.-
so Skeletons: q.q
Tombguard: yay :D

Spiney Norman
13-01-2012, 17:34
i made quite good experiences with a lvl 4 when ever i can play him ^^
especialy with smiting and decceration.
the raising from our lore is just the iceing on the cake.
sure it can tip the scale but most of the time you will only get 4-5lp per magicphase.
i would suggest to use 1lvl 4 and 2lvl2 in a 2,5k game
the lvl 4 obviously has to use nehek but those lvl 2 can be used with either with lore of light or death which will give u either access to some very nice buff's or some seriuos hexes and sniper-spells
(i would suggest if u want to snipe dont use 2lvl2 rather use 2 or 3 lvl 1)

which i wouldnot suggest is attacking a horde of 30Chaoswarriors with halberds, rage standart, mark of nurgel and a chaosgeneral with 40skeleton warriors(prince included) and a nekrosphinx. turned pretty bad for me-.-( bad magicphase) luckily my tombguard was nearby and was able to get them right after they finished my poor little skellies-.-
so Skeletons: q.q
Tombguard: yay :D

To be honest, outside of Storm of magic I think 8 levels of magic is trying to stretch the 8th ed magic phase rather further than it can possibly go. I generally find that 2 level 2s and the caskets bound spell is plenty enough to utilise all the power dice I have on most occasions, more than that and your just throwing additional points at a phase which can't realistically yield any more for you than it already does.

Pulstar
13-01-2012, 18:29
Anyone had any experience spamming ushabti? This list seems somewhat competitive to me, and may just throw your opponent for a loop.

Liche High Priest w/ earthing rod
Liche Priest with dispel scroll and Lore of Light
Necrotect with charmed shield
Necrotect

4 units of 10 archers (or 2 units of 10 and 1 of 20)
2 units of 3 chariots with standard, one standard is the flaming banner

8 Ushabti with Gws and full command
8 Ushabti with GWs and full command

Necrosphinx
Necrosphinx

2500 points

Basically, the necrotects go with the ushabti, which is really risky but whatever. These units are crazy deadly if they get to attack. Meanwhile, the necrosphinges just tarpit units the ushabti cant handle while trying to kill as many characters as possible.

I like it. Play it and see what happens.

I'd do two changes...

I would drop a Necrosphinx to add a Casket and upgrade the LP to a second HLP. (still with Light)

Ubi's are glass cannons, but with the ward save from LoN and bubble Pha's from LoL you should be able to keep them going. And bubble Speed of Light or bubble Time Warp...ouch. You would have points for the scroll to get the bubble spell of when you need it.

Second I would put the chariots in one unit w/ FC and flamming banner. But that is just me...

Althwen
17-01-2012, 09:49
I was wondering if there was a way for our Tomb kings/Princes to join units like Ushabti and Necro KNights other than on foot.
I don't have my BRB with me at work, but characters on chariots normally cannot join units, can they? and the special TK rule only allows them to join other units of chariots, right?

SO, can a king or a prince on a warsphinx join a unit of Necroknights?
I believe the answer is no, because monsters can't join units, but again, no BRB here to look it up.

So it seems that a TK/TP with CLoak of Dunes is the only thing that can join a unit of Necroknights and not lose their higher movement value...

Maybe that's worth a try :D

archie-d
17-01-2012, 10:32
I was wondering if there was a way for our Tomb kings/Princes to join units like Ushabti and Necro KNights other than on foot.
I don't have my BRB with me at work, but characters on chariots normally cannot join units, can they? and the special TK rule only allows them to join other units of chariots, right?

SO, can a king or a prince on a warsphinx join a unit of Necroknights?
I believe the answer is no, because monsters can't join units, but again, no BRB here to look it up.

So it seems that a TK/TP with CLoak of Dunes is the only thing that can join a unit of Necroknights and not lose their higher movement value...

Maybe that's worth a try :D

man alive! if a king mounted on a warsphinx was able to join a unit of necropolis knights....it would look awesome.

that would be about the only thing ever that would make me consider mounting a character on a sphinx.

Enigmatik1
17-01-2012, 13:59
We need Necroserpent mounts!!!! :D

Spinocus
17-01-2012, 16:29
We need Necroserpent mounts!!!! :D

+1

I also have a smaller beef with TK mounts... Would it have killed them to let a Tomb Prince ride a Skeletal Steed? So a Lvl 4 High Lich Priest Hierophant can ride one but not a Tomb Prince? With WS5 Skeletal Horsemen would finally have a reason to... uh, live! Honestly now, except for the occasional eccentric TK player looking to try something different who wants to pony up 14pts for medium cavalry w/WS2?!? This would really open up the options for a sizeable and highly mobile TK force... and one that doesn't break the bank.

Fluff, shmuff. GW could excuse it by saying younger Nehekaran princes hungry for glory and dissatisfied with taking the proverbial 'backseat' to their fathers & older brothers at the head of chariot formations were known to lead formations of lesser nobility mounted on fine warhorses.

musical
17-01-2012, 17:28
A question on Prince Apophas. I really like the model and got 1 painted up. However his rule seem to be generally poor without any definite role and at 130pts he is too expensive to just take up points without doing much.

Anyone try using him so far?

Althwen
17-01-2012, 19:23
mmm yes. I just got home and answered my own question. Indeed there is no exception to any of the rules, and the only way for a TK/TP to join a unit of Necroknights and not have them lose their higher movement value, is to equip him with cloak of the dunes and have him join the unit on foot.

I think I'm going to give that a try... WS 5 Necroknights might well be a proper hammer!

We do indeed need Serpent mounts!

gdsora
17-01-2012, 19:46
A question on Prince Apophas. I really like the model and got 1 painted up. However his rule seem to be generally poor without any definite role and at 130pts he is too expensive to just take up points without doing much.

Anyone try using him so far?

Flying, 5A 4W 4+ Regen
He is pretty good for hunting down war machines, skirmishers any small units. A little pricey, but i think he is better then a scorpion.

Invigilius
17-01-2012, 21:43
+1

I also have a smaller beef with TK mounts... Would it have killed them to let a Tomb Prince ride a Skeletal Steed? So a Lvl 4 High Lich Priest Hierophant can ride one but not a Tomb Prince? With WS5 Skeletal Horsemen would finally have a reason to... uh, live! Honestly now, except for the occasional eccentric TK player looking to try something different who wants to pony up 14pts for medium cavalry w/WS2?!? This would really open up the options for a sizeable and highly mobile TK force... and one that doesn't break the bank.

Fluff, shmuff. GW could excuse it by saying younger Nehekaran princes hungry for glory and dissatisfied with taking the proverbial 'backseat' to their fathers & older brothers at the head of chariot formations were known to lead formations of lesser nobility mounted on fine warhorses.

One time, I tried a 25 man cavalry unit with the front rank of 5 full with heralds. They worked pretty well.

Spiney Norman
17-01-2012, 23:23
Flying, 5A 4W 4+ Regen
He is pretty good for hunting down war machines, skirmishers any small units. A little pricey, but i think he is better then a scorpion.

He is a little pricey, and difficult to use against an army with any shooting in it. It depends on how closely you pack terrain, its generally quite hard to terrain-hop when you can only move 10", which is the only way to really keep him alive.

I don't think I'd say he was better than a scorpion, at least a scorpion has a reasonable chance of surviving a round of shooting before it charges, a scorpion is also only 2/3 the price.

I think scorpions are pretty good actually, I think people just miss the hideously overpowered scorpion from last edition that would burst out of the ground, charge straight in and maul through a warmachine/archer nest with nothing to challenge it.

vinny t
17-01-2012, 23:32
Prince Apophas suffers from being roughly the price of 2 scorpions who can die pretty easily to concentrated shooting or a flaming sneeze. Scorpions with 3 wounds are really not worth the 85 points, imo. There are things that warmachine hunt better, ie casket, Stalkers, and carrion.

gdsora
18-01-2012, 02:14
He is a little pricey, and difficult to use against an army with any shooting in it. It depends on how closely you pack terrain, its generally quite hard to terrain-hop when you can only move 10", which is the only way to really keep him alive.

I don't think I'd say he was better than a scorpion, at least a scorpion has a reasonable chance of surviving a round of shooting before it charges, a scorpion is also only 2/3 the price.

I think scorpions are pretty good actually, I think people just miss the hideously overpowered scorpion from last edition that would burst out of the ground, charge straight in and maul through a warmachine/archer nest with nothing to challenge it.

I think 4 wounds with 6+ armor and a 4+ regen save with flying is better then a scorpion in surviving. maybe its just me. I always seem to fail 5+.

Am I the only one who didn't think scorpions were broken?
I do think they needed to have a points increase for their stats.
but
It came from below, wasn't broken by any means.
There was a 50% Chance of not coming up turn 2. That means 2 free turns of shooting for war-machines. Then a 30% chance of not coming up turn 3. Those numbers are pretty significant.
When you do arrive, you can still misfire which means
1-2 you die giving VP
3-4 you die without giving VP
5-6 enemy can place you wherever they want, which means useless for the rest of the game

and if you don't misfire you still scatter.
I honestly thought there was plenty of checks on ICFB.

Corvus Corone
18-01-2012, 13:02
Hullo chaps; I'm a new TK general! I just a couple of questions as I'm in that stage of designing my army.

1. Khatep - he looks great. Is he?
2. Necrotects. How do you ever get them to survive long enough to use (e.g. in tomb guard)?
3. The warsphinx. When it came out there was much excitement; how has it proven itself?

For context (if needed), my list is over in the lists room.

Thanks all; fantasy is fairly alien to me (long time 40k player) and I'm still finding my feet.

Althwen
18-01-2012, 14:14
Hey Corvus,

I don't know which 40k armies you play, but you definetly went for the slowest of the Fantasy armies: Tomb Kings. And that brings me directly to my objection with Warsphinxes. They're slow... They're slow to die (which is good) but they're also slow to do some damage and slow to move.

They're nice statwise and a good investment, but if your metagame involves fast armies like Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Daemons, Bretonnia, etc. prepare to use that breath weapon of his in the shooting phase instead of the combat phase, because most of them will most likely gun you down from a distance or run circles around you.

I haven't yet used necrotects because they require a pointinvestment to protect them and boosting bad combat units with hatred is rather pointless imho.

Don't know about Khatep as my gaming group doesn't use special characters.

May the winds of Nehekhara rattle your bones, but your enemies' even more!

Spinocus
18-01-2012, 14:27
One time, I tried a 25 man cavalry unit with the front rank of 5 full with heralds. They worked pretty well.

Really? That's quite daring of you to spend so many points on what is considered to be one of the red headed stepchildren of the TK army. The Herald front rank sounds quite cheesy but effective. What army did you run it against? Did you get the charge and how did it fare in combat?

Now, put Settra within 6" of that 25 strong block (no Heralds) and I can see it being quite effective. On the other hand critics would say why not simply buy an equal points value worth of chariots and give them the benefit of Settra's buff instead?

Althwen
18-01-2012, 14:49
According to Hastings in the 40k threads there will be new Tomb Spyders for Necrons... I'm really hoping for some decent conversion opportunities to some Tomb Scorpions here as I hear the current Scorpion model is a b*** to assemble and quite honestly looks super ugly.

Corvus Corone
18-01-2012, 15:02
Hey Corvus,

I don't know which 40k armies you play, but you definetly went for the slowest of the Fantasy armies: Tomb Kings. And that brings me directly to my objection with Warsphinxes. They're slow... They're slow to die (which is good) but they're also slow to do some damage and slow to move.

They're nice statwise and a good investment, but if your metagame involves fast armies like Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Daemons, Bretonnia, etc. prepare to use that breath weapon of his in the shooting phase instead of the combat phase, because most of them will most likely gun you down from a distance or run circles around you.

I haven't yet used necrotects because they require a pointinvestment to protect them and boosting bad combat units with hatred is rather pointless imho.

Don't know about Khatep as my gaming group doesn't use special characters.

May the winds of Nehekhara rattle your bones, but your enemies' even more!


Many thanks, Althwen. That's useful info. I knew we were slow, but I guess I didn't realise we were the slowest =(.

Maybe someone else will know about khatep!

Snowflake
18-01-2012, 15:50
Hullo chaps; I'm a new TK general! I just a couple of questions as I'm in that stage of designing my army.

1. Khatep - he looks great. Is he?
2. Necrotects. How do you ever get them to survive long enough to use (e.g. in tomb guard)?
3. The warsphinx. When it came out there was much excitement; how has it proven itself?

For context (if needed), my list is over in the lists room.

Thanks all; fantasy is fairly alien to me (long time 40k player) and I'm still finding my feet.

1. I've used Khatep, and I don't think he's very good. He costs quite a bit, and for that cost you basically get Loremaster and the staff. I haven't found the scroll to be useful, though if you face Teclis a lot that would certainly be good for some giggles. The staff is nice, but not awesome. I just didn't get much use out of him over a basic Level 4.

2. Slapping them on the corner is fine. Giving them armor is also good. They really don't die as much as the internet would have you think they do.

3. The Warsphinx is fantastic. It is best suited to smashing infantry blocks, which aren't going to be outrunning you. It can also fare very well against cavalry and monsters. The roar will negate regen saves, and there aren't a lot of things in the game that wound it on anything better than a 6. Just watch out for poison.

Corvus Corone
18-01-2012, 16:00
1. I've used Khatep, and I don't think he's very good. He costs quite a bit, and for that cost you basically get Loremaster and the staff. I haven't found the scroll to be useful, though if you face Teclis a lot that would certainly be good for some giggles. The staff is nice, but not awesome. I just didn't get much use out of him over a basic Level 4.

2. Slapping them on the corner is fine. Giving them armor is also good. They really don't die as much as the internet would have you think they do.

3. The Warsphinx is fantastic. It is best suited to smashing infantry blocks, which aren't going to be outrunning you. It can also fare very well against cavalry and monsters. The roar will negate regen saves, and there aren't a lot of things in the game that wound it on anything better than a 6. Just watch out for poison.

Cheers Snowflake; I've noticed you're an all around knowledgeable and useful geezer on these forums!

As for the sphinx, that's pretty much what I was expecting. I look forward to crushing some dudes with it.

I plan to run my tomb guard 3x10, hopefully my ntect will survive out there on the corner.

I'm saddened to hear that you didn't get on so well with Khatep. I'll have to have another look over my army book and re-evaluate taking a LHP or two - my list has the casket and hieroT so is pretty firendly to wizards.

Invigilius
18-01-2012, 16:34
Really? That's quite daring of you to spend so many points on what is considered to be one of the red headed stepchildren of the TK army. The Herald front rank sounds quite cheesy but effective. What army did you run it against? Did you get the charge and how did it fare in combat?

Now, put Settra within 6" of that 25 strong block (no Heralds) and I can see it being quite effective. On the other hand critics would say why not simply buy an equal points value worth of chariots and give them the benefit of Settra's buff instead?

I run it against an 18 strong WoC unit and a hellcannon and destroyed everyone. I only lost one herald and several horsemen at the end of the game. I got the charge both times. I think it's only a funny gimmick, but that day it worked at least. :p

Spiney Norman
18-01-2012, 16:40
Hullo chaps; I'm a new TK general! I just a couple of questions as I'm in that stage of designing my army.

1. Khatep - he looks great. Is he?
2. Necrotects. How do you ever get them to survive long enough to use (e.g. in tomb guard)?
3. The warsphinx. When it came out there was much excitement; how has it proven itself?

For context (if needed), my list is over in the lists room.

Thanks all; fantasy is fairly alien to me (long time 40k player) and I'm still finding my feet.

1. Khatep, no I don't think so, for 50pts above the cost of my standard L4 he's not worth it. Unfortunately there are only about 3 spells in the lore of nehekhara I really ever want to cast and one of them (Khsars) I can guarantee getting on any LoN wizard. If there were more useful spells in the lore then knowing the whole lot would be worth something, but cursed blades and vengeance are pretty lame and skullstorm isn't really worth the dice you have to throw at it when you could be using them on Light of Death.

If you're into SCs then Arkhan is definitely worth looking into, he's only a few pts more than Khatep, but has some huge advantages, he lets you store dice for your casting phase, gets +5 to cast/dispel and most importantly of all he lets you use the lore of death instead of being stuck with Nehekhara.

2. If you ever find an answer to this question let me know because the only thing I have seen work is giving him the armour of destiny, and I'd like something that was effective without nearly doubling his points cost.

3. The warsphinx is a solid part of our list, its pretty dependable, minces up infantry and can effectively tarpit almost anything else, AND it can have a breath weapon. IMHO its one of the stars of our list, the other being necro knights.

Corvus Corone
19-01-2012, 12:09
1. Khatep, no I don't think so, for 50pts above the cost of my standard L4 he's not worth it. Unfortunately there are only about 3 spells in the lore of nehekhara I really ever want to cast and one of them (Khsars) I can guarantee getting on any LoN wizard. If there were more useful spells in the lore then knowing the whole lot would be worth something, but cursed blades and vengeance are pretty lame and skullstorm isn't really worth the dice you have to throw at it when you could be using them on Light of Death.

If you're into SCs then Arkhan is definitely worth looking into, he's only a few pts more than Khatep, but has some huge advantages, he lets you store dice for your casting phase, gets +5 to cast/dispel and most importantly of all he lets you use the lore of death instead of being stuck with Nehekhara.

2. If you ever find an answer to this question let me know because the only thing I have seen work is giving him the armour of destiny, and I'd like something that was effective without nearly doubling his points cost.

3. The warsphinx is a solid part of our list, its pretty dependable, minces up infantry and can effectively tarpit almost anything else, AND it can have a breath weapon. IMHO its one of the stars of our list, the other being necro knights.

Thanks for the info, Spiney Norman.

May I ask, how do you normally equip your heiro if just using a lvl4? If you do take a lvl4 as your heiro, what other casters do you bring, and do you use the casket/ heirotitan?

Thanks; clearly our heirophant is a crucial cornerstone of the army and I'm still trying integrate this mandatory element into my lists.

vinny t
19-01-2012, 12:22
My wizard loadout was originally a lvl 4 and a lvl 2 with Light backed up by a casket. I didnt like it that much and so I made the switch to just a lvl 2 and the casket. I much prefer the latter of the 2 options, as even if you get a huge amount of dice, 6 at the casket and then 3 at 2 different spells works extremely well, even with a lvl 2.

Corvus Corone
19-01-2012, 13:53
Thanks Vinny. I was considering a couple (or even 3?) lvl 2 casters instead. I'm pretty much sold on the casket and 90% sold on the heiroTitan (I have a great conversion idea) so I think magic will be a big deal in my army.

Spiney Norman
19-01-2012, 14:39
Thanks for the info, Spiney Norman.

May I ask, how do you normally equip your heiro if just using a lvl4? If you do take a lvl4 as your heiro, what other casters do you bring, and do you use the casket/ heirotitan?

Thanks; clearly our heirophant is a crucial cornerstone of the army and I'm still trying integrate this mandatory element into my lists.

My standard level 4 hierophant was Liche High Priest (L4, Lore of Nehekhara, Earthing Rod, Talisman of Preservation). I supported him with a casket, and a L2 Light wizard but no titan (since there is no model for it).

I've since abandoned him in favour of a Tomb King with Sword of Bloodshed, Armour of Fortune, Dragone band gem and shield. I'm using a L2 liche priest as my hierophant, backed up by a L2 priest with lore of Light and a casket of souls.

Corvus Corone
19-01-2012, 15:31
My standard level 4 hierophant was Liche High Priest (L4, Lore of Nehekhara, Earthing Rod, Talisman of Preservation). I supported him with a casket, and a L2 Light wizard but no titan (since there is no model for it).

I've since abandoned him in favour of a Tomb King with Sword of Bloodshed, Armour of Fortune, Dragone band gem and shield. I'm using a L2 liche priest as my hierophant, backed up by a L2 priest with lore of Light and a casket of souls.

Right, thanks for the lowdown. That seems an eminently sensible build which I might borrow.

I basically want to go for a magic heavy focus (coming from 40k so the magic phase is shiny and fun). The key ingredients seem to be the casket, the heiroT and some casters. Lore of light seems good for binding enemy spellcasters to reduce dispelling, that's factoring into my plan. Are there any other tricks I can use to help my odds?

I have a cool idea (and the parts) for a heiroT conversion so I'm not so worried about the lack of model.

Althwen
19-01-2012, 15:31
My lvl 4 Hierophant has recently gone to battle without any magic items.
I discovered that I was rarely using the 4++ and decided to spend those 45pts elsewhere. He sometimes still has the Earthing Rod, but I just try not to cast with too many dice anyway.

This way I can still fit in a cheap Tomb King when needed. (Mainly against armies filled with WS 5 models like High Elves, the boosted WS of a Tomb King makes all the difference.)

My lvl 2 who varies from having Lore of Light to Lore of Nehekh now bears the dispel scroll. This is due to a recent rules disambiguation where I realised that after having failed a dispel attempt, that specific caster can't use a dispel scroll either.

archie-d
19-01-2012, 15:34
i ran the hierotitan at first for some time, until i came to the realisation that i never had the dice to use its bound spells and it wasnt very handy in combat, so i was spending those points basically on a bubble of +D3 to cast, and it wasnt really worth it for that alone.
so i dropped him from my list, havent looked back since.

Althwen
19-01-2012, 15:34
Are there any other tricks I can use to help my odds?

Remember that a Miscast on the Casket of Souls doesn't hurt you too much since the bound spell is an innate bound spell. Therefore it won't suddenly stop working like magic items that hold bound spells.
So you're free to 6-dice it without fear of going TTZZzzzzz--*

Spiney Norman
20-01-2012, 08:01
i ran the hierotitan at first for some time, until i came to the realisation that i never had the dice to use its bound spells and it wasnt very handy in combat, so i was spending those points basically on a bubble of +D3 to cast, and it wasnt really worth it for that alone.
so i dropped him from my list, havent looked back since.

That was my fear about the hierotitan as well. I'm all for getting access to some decent bound spells because the LoN is so poor, but the titans bounds are not really what I'd call decent. Also, from my experience with the colossus I can imagine that taking away his additional hand weapon and unstoppable assault would make him pretty useless in combat.

jtrowell
20-01-2012, 10:51
You still get S6 thunderstomp, and my Titan has often helped my skeleton bus with a prince/king win a fight by charging in the side of the target unit. With the help of the titan, and the defensive bonus of having WS5/6, you might win some figths and have the rank to prevent steadfast.

Sure, skavens or gobs can still have more rank that you after losing 10+, but not for long, and against those opponents, your skeletons with prince or king are rather good at killing and surviving.

Enigmatik1
20-01-2012, 13:19
I don't often run the Hierotitan, but it looks to me that he is best used in a Herdstone spam-like lists. The more Priests you have on the board, the more value you get out of him (and them) provided you keep them all within the 12" range. If you're only fielding 1-2 Priests, like most of us seem to be, I really don't think he's worth his points but the possibility of having something outside of LoN to use if you're only running a single Priest like I do, makes me consider fielding him most of the time (even if I opt not to at the end).

Corvus Corone
20-01-2012, 14:17
I don't often run the Hierotitan, but it looks to me that he is best used in a Herdstone spam-like lists. The more Priests you have on the board, the more value you get out of him (and them) provided you keep them all within the 12" range. If you're only fielding 1-2 Priests, like most of us seem to be, I really don't think he's worth his points but the possibility of having something outside of LoN to use if you're only running a single Priest like I do, makes me consider fielding him most of the time (even if I opt not to at the end).

The thing is, even with just the one priest (so far khatep) I seem to have more than enough casting options for even 12 power dice (between his 6 spells and reliable staff boosted casting, the titan, SotUL and the casket). Extra priests would only be for channeling, other lores and items (I'm thinking a lvl 2 light priest).

Lord Dralnu
20-01-2012, 15:36
Yeah another priest seems like overkill with all that other stuff in your list, unless you felt you needed a dispell or feedback scroll in there.

TheDrugLordX
20-01-2012, 17:45
I don't often run the Hierotitan, but it looks to me that he is best used in a Herdstone spam-like lists. The more Priests you have on the board, the more value you get out of him (and them) provided you keep them all within the 12" range. If you're only fielding 1-2 Priests, like most of us seem to be, I really don't think he's worth his points but the possibility of having something outside of LoN to use if you're only running a single Priest like I do, makes me consider fielding him most of the time (even if I opt not to at the end).

I've been playing with the Hierotitan in almost every list I've played, so I can say I got a great deal of experiance with him.

Foremost, he's a very solid choice. He's a package deal, supporting all aspects of your army.

Like you, I first thought that multiple low level priests would be the way to go with a hierotitan. I learned the hard way that this was not the case. With a single high level wizard combines with the hierotitan you can essentially use one less dice when casting all the spells in the lore of nehekara, the extra +2 becomes very relevant in this cicumstance, as if you take the chance and cast with a die less with a level 2 the risk is very high you blow the whole magic phase (I did this alot in the beginning).

The hierotitan also brings two EXTREMELY useful key spells to support a single nehekara wizard user, which kinda overlap with the "using mulple low level wizards" concept, making the spells he bring less effective.

To sum up; I would prefer the hierotitan over a casket of souls in most of my lists. However when using several low level wizards the casket of souls has better use with additional power dice. Another important note is that it's not economical to take both the casket and the hierotitan, as the pts investment in the magic phase does not contribute enough to make a difference.

skirder
20-01-2012, 17:58
This wouldn't be very competitive, but, just for fun:
1 lvl 2 Neh
4-5 (ish) lvl 1 Light
Casket/heiro

Between the extra dice, the +d3, channeling and the bound spells, you will have about 10 dice per phase (average), usually over twice what he has, and and average of +3 total to your cast. you could usually somewhat successfully attempt 4-5 Shem's gazes as well as the casket.

No, it's not a great idea, and is pretty gimmicky, but it could be fun. (I might try it against my vamp friend. 4-6 D6 s4 hits? [assuming he dispels 2 and doesn't want to blakc peredapt] that's an average of 14-21 hits) even better, if one of them rolls banishment. then they have 3D6 s7-8 hits.

Enigmatik1
21-01-2012, 00:19
I've been playing with the Hierotitan in almost every list I've played, so I can say I got a great deal of experiance with him.

Foremost, he's a very solid choice. He's a package deal, supporting all aspects of your army.

Like you, I first thought that multiple low level priests would be the way to go with a hierotitan. I learned the hard way that this was not the case. With a single high level wizard combines with the hierotitan you can essentially use one less dice when casting all the spells in the lore of nehekara, the extra +2 becomes very relevant in this cicumstance, as if you take the chance and cast with a die less with a level 2 the risk is very high you blow the whole magic phase (I did this alot in the beginning).

The hierotitan also brings two EXTREMELY useful key spells to support a single nehekara wizard user, which kinda overlap with the "using mulple low level wizards" concept, making the spells he bring less effective.

To sum up; I would prefer the hierotitan over a casket of souls in most of my lists. However when using several low level wizards the casket of souls has better use with additional power dice. Another important note is that it's not economical to take both the casket and the hierotitan, as the pts investment in the magic phase does not contribute enough to make a difference.

Hrm...interesting. I didn't really consider that. I'll have to give that a shot the next time I break form and run a L4.

Spiney Norman
21-01-2012, 17:00
Do folks really think spamming minor magic missiles is a viable tactic in this edition? Unless your fighting vampires or daemons you're going to kill one, maybe two infantry per casting of shems gaze.

Am I the only one who sees spells like banishment and net of amyntok as the main reason for bringing multiple light users.

I like the idea of a light Kabal, and I'd definitely do it in SoM! But 8-12 levels of magic is a little crazy in normal 8th ed.

I still think the Titan can't compare with the casket, because light of death is such a great spell, the titans bounds are very minor and aren't really worth casting unless you really can't do anything else IMHO.

skirder
21-01-2012, 21:51
I'm gonna take 4 lvl 1 light and 1 lvl 2 nehk for the fun of it against vamps :p should be hilarious. not gonna win or anything, mind you, but can definitely take out a ton a turn. hoping to get the net or banishment on one of them and shem on the rest.

no, i don't think it's a viable tactic, just fun. I want to see what it can do.

TheDrugLordX
22-01-2012, 07:10
Do folks really think spamming minor magic missiles is a viable tactic in this edition? Unless your fighting vampires or daemons you're going to kill one, maybe two infantry per casting of shems gaze.

Am I the only one who sees spells like banishment and net of amyntok as the main reason for bringing multiple light users.

I like the idea of a light Kabal, and I'd definitely do it in SoM! But 8-12 levels of magic is a little crazy in normal 8th ed.

I still think the Titan can't compare with the casket, because light of death is such a great spell, the titans bounds are very minor and aren't really worth casting unless you really can't do anything else IMHO.
I guess everybody's experiance is different. When I've used the casket everything seems to have LD9/10 re-rollable, which seldom causes any wounds (one or two here and there, really inneficient for the pts i pay for the casket and the amount of power dice i put into it). Units outside this bubble are usually free give-away units positioned so that it doesn't bounce or so large and cheap that a 5 casualties won't make a difference.

But most importantly, when comparing it to the titan, as I usually bring 2 catapults along the casket this really clogs up my warmachine line making any potential warmachine hunters a SEVERE threat to my rear battle line, while the hierotitan actually has a nice thunderstomp at S6 to support my units in combat.

And oh, he also brings 2 neat spells to deal with enemy warmachine hunters. Spirit Leech against other low LD monsters is crazy, and the other bound spell eats said warmachine hunters. Sure, they're not always useful, but it's all about having the right spell to cast at the right time.

As for the multiple low lvl light wizards, I take them mostly to support my knights with speed of light, pha's protection and bironas timewarp. Banishment is also neat when running multiple wizards, and an extra magic missile (signature) is not very good, but decent atleast, and a good substitute would you roll that rally spell or net of amyntok if you phase anyone (like ogres) it's not very effective against.

I'm having a game in a few hours against the new VC (first time) and I'm not sure which setup to go with. I'm contemplating either the lvl 4 + hierotitan, or 3 lvl 2s, 2 with lore of light with a casket. All i know is he's bringing a red fury ghoul king and 2-3 large units of zombies. The ONLY thing I got that can handle a ghoul king is killing blow, but I'm not sure if I should go for the KB spell in nehekara or just buff my knights with speed of light/timewarp and hope that's enough to get rid of him...

Corvus Corone
23-01-2012, 15:10
I've been playing with the Hierotitan in almost every list I've played, so I can say I got a great deal of experiance with him.

Foremost, he's a very solid choice. He's a package deal, supporting all aspects of your army.

Like you, I first thought that multiple low level priests would be the way to go with a hierotitan. I learned the hard way that this was not the case. With a single high level wizard combines with the hierotitan you can essentially use one less dice when casting all the spells in the lore of nehekara, the extra +2 becomes very relevant in this cicumstance, as if you take the chance and cast with a die less with a level 2 the risk is very high you blow the whole magic phase (I did this alot in the beginning).

The hierotitan also brings two EXTREMELY useful key spells to support a single nehekara wizard user, which kinda overlap with the "using mulple low level wizards" concept, making the spells he bring less effective.

To sum up; I would prefer the hierotitan over a casket of souls in most of my lists. However when using several low level wizards the casket of souls has better use with additional power dice. Another important note is that it's not economical to take both the casket and the hierotitan, as the pts investment in the magic phase does not contribute enough to make a difference.


This is exactly what I'm finding so far.

Khatep, HerioT and Casket is mad for nehek casting. I'll say more when I've had a bit more experience, but I'll say that if you want serious nehek magic, its great (had a few playtests).

Spiney Norman
25-01-2012, 08:56
As for the multiple low lvl light wizards, I take them mostly to support my knights with speed of light, pha's protection and bironas timewarp. Banishment is also neat when running multiple wizards, and an extra magic missile (signature) is not very good, but decent atleast, and a good substitute would you roll that rally spell or net of amyntok if you phase anyone (like ogres) it's not very effective against.

I'm having a game in a few hours against the new VC (first time) and I'm not sure which setup to go with. I'm contemplating either the lvl 4 + hierotitan, or 3 lvl 2s, 2 with lore of light with a casket. All i know is he's bringing a red fury ghoul king and 2-3 large units of zombies. The ONLY thing I got that can handle a ghoul king is killing blow, but I'm not sure if I should go for the KB spell in nehekara or just buff my knights with speed of light/timewarp and hope that's enough to get rid of him...

I would go with the Multiple L2s, in my experience of vamps so far most people are running multiple low level casters to benefit from the crumbling backup. Also it means you don't have to suffer the lore of nehekhara withall of your spells. LoN is ok on a L2, but I generally want some more powerful spells if I'm fielding a L4. I especially don't see much utility for Khatep, lore master is all well and good if you have access to a strong lore but most of the LoN is too situational and it doesn't have any strong spells.

skirder
25-01-2012, 09:45
I'm Playtesting with a Lvl 4, Lvl 2, and then another Lvl 2 with light or death lore.

Althwen
01-02-2012, 10:39
So yesterday I had a game of 2k TK vs HE where I decided to go with two low-level casters instead of my usual level 4

I came to this decision due to my extreme susceptibility to miscasts and the 2-4 result. I currently hold the record at my gaming club where I've had my Hierophant sucked into the warp due to that result 5 times in a row for the last 5 battles.

So, knowing that he would probably end up in the warp anyway (and he did!), I decided not to spend too much points on him. So I only bought him the +1 to dispel staff and an extra level, effectively making him a level 3 mage when dispelling. And I gave the other level 2 a dispel scroll.

Little did I know that my ever so modest friend had decided to forego with modesty and fielded a level 4 archmage with the Book of Hoeth.

Now instead of running through the entire battle report I just want to drop some thoughts of mine right here.

First off: Even with an enemy with a level 4 with the Book of Hoeth and the lore of life, I wasn't too shabby in the magic defence. Granted, he has some IF's, but the trick is knowing which spells to let pass even if they're not IF's and then decisively roll ALL your dice against the spell that you really don't want getting through (and isnt IF'd).

Secondly: With a casket and some decent spells from the lore of Nehek (and low expectations), my mages performed quite avarage (apart from the 3 miscasts I suffered :( ) and avarage suits me well for magic.

Thirdly: I based my army on low magic, thus expected only to heal my wounds occasionally and not being to march. That said, I fielde 2x3 Necro knights, 5 chariots with tomb king on chariot, a Warsphinx, 40 skellies with shields, 10 archers, scullapult and a casket.
I had a slow moving portion of the army and a fast moving portion, and both portions would be able to hold their own if separated. And the army didn't rely too heavily on healing and moves quite averagely without movement spells.

The TK's inspiring presence worked wonders once my Hierophant went to his favorite alternate universe called 'the Warp'. Hardly no crumbling except for the Catapult.
I'm still not sure about the Deathmask I gave him though. His chariot got shot out from underneath him, so it was hard to get him close enough for it to actually take effect, but when all arrows are somehow drawn to the chariot chassis, all the protection on my Tomb King is useless.

So in short, my conclusions:
- level 2's are quite capable of a defensive and offensive magic phase, as long as you don't expect them to work wonders.
- Fast and hard units don't really miss not being able to move in the magic phase or its healing.
- Tomb Kings are handy for their LD bubble and for their added punch to the unit.
- Miscasts/IF's suck!

oldWitheredCorpse
01-02-2012, 10:47
His chariot got shot out from underneath him, so it was hard to get him close enough for it to actually take effect, but when all arrows are somehow drawn to the chariot chassis, all the protection on my Tomb King is useless.

How did this happen, exactly? Was his unit first decimated, then hit by a bolt thrower?

Althwen
01-02-2012, 10:59
How did this happen, exactly? Was his unit first decimated, then hit by a bolt thrower?

yup. He had 2 units of 22 archers each. And two bolt throwers. Add to that a tier 3 fireball, and it's distributing hits from the get-go due to a lack of unit models. and all the hits distributed to my King had to roll what they hit, and he hit the chariot everytime.

Spiney Norman
01-02-2012, 11:05
I don't really get how you are miscasting so much, are you saying you miscast in half the games magic phases with a L2? What were you like 6-dicing every spell?

I find esp against higher level wizards youre more likely to get spells through if you try and cast lots of spells on 2-3 dice as they wont have enough dice to attempt to dispel them all, it also drastically reduces your chance of a miscast.

The book of Hoeth list is tough, but at least he wasnt using the lore of shadows, mindrazored spear elves are insane. LoL forces him to cast one spell a turn that does nothing other than make his other spells better, which is one spell you don't need to bother dispelling. On the other hand since a clever opponent will be casting almost every spell with IF you don't even need to think about which ones to dispel.

Its also worth noting that a book mage will have no protection at all, so death-sniping with spells like Bjuna, Laniph and the death sig spell are viable tactics.

Althwen
01-02-2012, 11:15
Nope, no 6-dicing apart from the casket. I do all my miscasts on 2-3 dice. I know it's statistcally improbable to miscast so much, but it's a cold-hard fact that my mages blow themselves up every battle. Just bad luck.

And about the book mage, I am indeed glad he didn't use any of the other lores, but that's his fault. We've tried to convince him that Shadows the better lore, especially for HE, but he just refuses to budge.

Benigno (WE)
01-02-2012, 12:49
I would stay with the Level 4 mage and get him an Earthing Rod to reroll the misscast table.

Althwen
01-02-2012, 12:57
I would stay with the Level 4 mage and get him an Earthing Rod to reroll the misscast table.

I was trying to make an argument for multiple low-level mages and that they don't really penalise you if you don't expect them to achieve the same as a level 4. TK's can be played without a level 4, is all I'm saying.

I know about the earthing rod and am no stranger to it.

Benigno (WE)
01-02-2012, 17:53
I was just giving my point of view, that a single high level caster should be better. If your dice betray you with so many misscasts, I just suggested that magic item as a good choice to prevent the odds of being killed.

It can be played with low level casters, you may be right, but IMO it is still better a single high level caster, some bad rolls do not make a single caster bad, just more risky.

skirder
01-02-2012, 20:12
I usually take a 4 and 1-2 2's. i've tried various combos and magic heavy seems to work best. I have had lots of misfortune with miscasts myself (nothing like yours), and i know that rerolling a 2-4 can often turn into an 11. then roll a 5-6 and you just paid 250 ish points for a lvl 1. But that's how magic works. It is a high risk high return phase in the game. If you are so unlucky, i would try 1 dicing a few spells. 1/3 of the time, you will not get to cast anymore, but with +4 and +d3 from the titan (if you take it), you will be able to cast most spells with him. with the titan and the casket (and possibly a low level) you will have enough other casters to use the dice if he gets a 1 or a 2. not saying it's the best, but if you are that unlucky and roll that many sixes, might as well try.

Barry "the blade"
20-02-2012, 09:57
So I've been looking at starting a Tomb Kings army with a raiding force theme. Centered around lots of chariots, and a couple war sphinxes. Support that with bone giants, necro knights. An all mounted army to represent "And the tomb kings rode to war..." rule.

My question is who has done a all mounted/no infantry force? How did it work out? And where did you put your heirophant so that he could keep up with the rest of the army? Medium cav? Light cab?

Any advice, or input is much appreciated.

skirder
20-02-2012, 18:05
Heirophant would be mounted with some horsemen. book isn't on me, but i'm 99% sure you can mount him.

Von Wibble
20-02-2012, 19:15
You can put him on a skeletal steed.

Light cav are slightly cheaper and can fill a role of some shooting without having to put the hierophant in harms way. But the spear cav has a better saving throw so can survive more enemy shooting - either choice is a decent one but personally I'd go with the archer cav. I'd recommend a unit of 10 or so. The thing is, in terms of keeping up, your force may need to spread out more to get optimal positioning for charges, so I'd recommend you just focus on a couple of friendly units and cast cheaper spells. 2 level 2s may be better for this purpose.

An all mounted force could work fine imo as long as you allow necropolis knights. Time your charges right and you can break through a lot of units. And pray a cannon doesn't line up a perfect shot through 2 or more of your units...

Spiney Norman
22-02-2012, 17:35
I actually prefer Tomb Kings with multiple low level casters, a L4 hierophant has too big a target on his head, not only does killing him remove a powerful magic asset, but it also makes your army fall to bits.

I'd far rather make my Hierophant a L2, its not such an obvious target that way, and it means I can lead with a King rather than Prince, which is great because Kings can be made really killy, rather than the prince who you just bring for the leadership.

Mozzamanx
25-02-2012, 16:56
New TK player here, and while we're vaguely on subject I'd like to ask about Chariots and unit sizes.

When it comes to Core, I think that the best foundation is a balance between Archers and Chariots, plus some Horse-Archers if you like them. However, what sort of unit size should we be working with?
In a 2400pt army, my current plan includes 2x4 Chariots and 38 Archers across 3 units (14, 12, 12). However I am wondering if it might be better to merge the Chariots into a single unit of 5-6, and re-invest the points back into Archers / Horse-Archers. I would get slightly more mileage out of the Flaming Banner and Smiting/Blades, but then I lose out on a whole extra hammer unit. Is the extra firepower and stability of a big unit (Plus S5 impacts) worth the loss of a unit? Especially when I can always throw some Knights in to cut the slack.

Also thought I'd pipe up for Stalkers. Even against high-I armies, they should be more than capable of holding their own. An Artillery dice averages '5' accounting for Misfire, so a standard unit will inflict 30 hits for every Misfire. That Misfire will average 2 wounds, while the 30 hits will be 5 wounds even against Elves. Those 2 Misfire Wounds are worth about 36pts, so as long as you are firing at something worth at least 7pts/wound, you'll strip them away quicker than yourself. While its not fantastic that you're killing yourself at the same time, this is in the worst situation. Put them into something I1/2, or something expensive, and you'll absolutely tear them apart. Using EBtS to get into the enemies juicy bits, you can quite happily murder a War-Machine or strip 3 wounds from a monster/Character. You can also happily 1-volley a Hellcannon, which is just wonderful.

Spiney Norman
25-02-2012, 17:00
My ore usually consists of 6 chariots with everything (or 5 with a royal) and 2x 20 archers. In larger games I add a 3rd archer unit and sometimes play around with 6 horse archers, or if I'm really feeling friendly, 10 horsemen.

I usually spend the greater part of my points in the special section on tomb guard, necropolis knights and war sphinxes.

Justy
26-02-2012, 19:55
So I've been looking at starting a Tomb Kings army with a raiding force theme. Centered around lots of chariots, and a couple war sphinxes. Support that with bone giants, necro knights. An all mounted army to represent "And the tomb kings rode to war..." rule.

My question is who has done a all mounted/no infantry force? How did it work out? And where did you put your heirophant so that he could keep up with the rest of the army? Medium cav? Light cab?

Any advice, or input is much appreciated.

I played this list two days ago against beastmen, won, but found trouble vs 6 minotaurs and generals with +1d6str +1d6A spell.

lvl 4 general hierophant on horse. RM3
7 skeletons on horse.
5 light skeletons on horse.
4 chariots flaming banner
4 chariots
3 chariots
warsphinx
warsphinx
necrosphinx
3 necroknights
3 necroknights
3 stalkers
8 ushabtis
1 2hand colosus.

My hierophant was on the medium cavalry unit.
All units got banner + musician.
I hate both skeletons & TG, so this is what I will probably play from now on, maybe replace the 8 ushabtis with another sphinx + 3 stalkers.
Bone giant sucks btw, too fragile.

Von Wibble
26-02-2012, 20:58
Any reason the necroknights are quite small? I'd consider bumping them up to 4 personally.

Justy
27-02-2012, 00:26
Any reason the necroknights are quite small? I'd consider bumping them up to 4 personally.

I only have 6 of them, and I was worried about deploying 23 chariot bases

Althwen
29-02-2012, 11:14
I'm thinking of fielding 10 horseman archers with a standard and deploying them as per the scout rule so as to threaten my opponents war machines from the get-go, by charging the warmachines in turn 1 hopefully (because who are we kidding, TK shooting is only effective in huge numbers)
Now this unit comes in at 150 points.

What are your views on this?
Has anyone tried this?
I'm comparing them with Stalkers who per 3 models come in at 165 points, are more durable and versatile, but will only be able to pop up from turn 2 onward.

Any thoughts?

Lafkak
29-02-2012, 17:54
AFAIK, Scouts can't charge on Turn 1 unless you didn't go first, so that may be a wrench in your plan.

I think the rest of the points you outlined are good ones, though. Stalkers and Horse Archers have different advantages vs. disadvantages, and you should pick the one that is appropriate to the role you want them to fulfill. If you are worried about incoming fire, the Horse Archers may be a better choice (if in a large unit as you describe).

Althwen
01-03-2012, 09:52
I know that a unit that has made a vanguard move may not charge in the first turn of the battle, but scouts? I'll have to check that, because it seems I may have missed it.
Anyway, I played the game yesterday and as soon as I saw my opponent's army I realised my mistake... My mistake being that I hadn't accounted for the huge amount of space an O&G usually takes up. There was absolutely no room for my scouts to be deployed behind his lines and so they wound up being an overly large unit of redirecters.

So, to answer my own question: Stalkers would have been better, because their delayed appearance would have actually allowed them to pop up behind the army as it would have moved forward already. As it was, my horse archers had no way of sneaking in between units and terrain because of all those wolf chariots, manglers, wolf riders and huge blocks. Well, live and learn!

Next time, Goblins. Next time! *miaaaauw*

stonetroll
01-03-2012, 12:37
So, to answer my own question: Stalkers would have been better, because their delayed appearance would have actually allowed them to pop up behind the army as it would have moved forward already. As it was, my horse archers had no way of sneaking in between units and terrain because of all those wolf chariots, manglers, wolf riders and huge blocks.

Now consider O&G being only one of the few army books which can pull off this trick of totally blocking your scout deployment. Would you render this unit worse than stalkers against, say, heigh elves/dark elves/daemons/bretonnians etcetcetc?

I think there is some mileage in that unit, just not in that matchup.

Althwen
01-03-2012, 13:05
It's not like this unit is worthless, and indeed O&G is one of the few who will be able to completely saturate their own deployment area, but then no other army in our metagame has anything to fear from 10 skellie horse archers in their rear. Dark Elves, High Elves, Daemons and VC don't really use any artillery to be easily picked off from behind and none of their units has anything to fear from 10 skellie horse archers in the rear of their unit that actually die faster than a regular skeleton.
Maybe your Brettonnians are the only other opponent that particular tactic would serve a purpose against.
I'm not discarding them at all. They'll make for either a fast bunker or a fast and accurate redirector, but the 'scout and charge artillery tactic' doesn't really serve a purpose when there's no artillery to charge...

Spiney Norman
07-03-2012, 23:13
I was trying to make an argument for multiple low-level mages and that they don't really penalise you if you don't expect them to achieve the same as a level 4. TK's can be played without a level 4, is all I'm saying.

I know about the earthing rod and am no stranger to it.

TK definitely can be played without a L4, multiple L2s are definitely viable when combined with a hierotitan as they can achieve the same casting bonus as a normal L4, they're also much less of an obvious target than the L4 LHP. The other thing I like about multiple L2s is the flexibility you get in lore choice, the lore of nehek is distinctly lacklustre compared to both death and light. Smiting is a great spell, but the rest of the lore isnt anything to write home about and the only really essential spell (khsars) is the one you can guarantee getting anyway. 3L2s, one nehek and two light is a great way to play IMHO and gives you a much stronger set of spells than a L4 nehek caster for about the same points.

Angelshade113
08-03-2012, 20:23
I'm going to a tournament this summer and I have a nice list that I've made up but the one thing that I can't decide on is what to do with my second priest. I have a level 4 already but I have a second hero priest with a scroll. I can't decide if I want him to be a level 2 or just a level one, and if to give him light magic or death. Right now I'm leaning towards a level one with light magic. To also give you some perspective to what I have magic wise in the army: a level 4 with earthing rod and 4+ ward, Hierotitan and a Casket.

Von Wibble
09-03-2012, 18:30
TK definitely can be played without a L4, multiple L2s are definitely viable when combined with a hierotitan as they can achieve the same casting bonus as a normal L4, they're also much less of an obvious target than the L4 LHP. The other thing I like about multiple L2s is the flexibility you get in lore choice, the lore of nehek is distinctly lacklustre compared to both death and light. Smiting is a great spell, but the rest of the lore isnt anything to write home about and the only really essential spell (khsars) is the one you can guarantee getting anyway. 3L2s, one nehek and two light is a great way to play IMHO and gives you a much stronger set of spells than a L4 nehek caster for about the same points.

I have to say I am coming round to this way of thinking also. Any enemy worth his salt sees a great big target when you have a level 4 anyway. and apart from maybe tomb guard you simply don't have a reliable bunker unit.

Angelshade13- I'd say light since the casting values are generally lower. Given the amount of magic you've already got level 1 is plenty - 3 bound spells and 2-3 good choice spells from the level 4 is a lot of uses for your dice.

ewar
09-03-2012, 19:17
Hey,

I have just finished reading through almost this whole thread over the last couple of weeks, as I've been starting up my new TK army.

Has anyone ever tried going complete skelly horde? I'm thinking something like 4 units of 50 warriors, 3 units of 30 archers, 30 tomb guard with cheap level 4 and a budget prince for the TG.

It runs exactly 2400 and would look incredible on the table. My first few games have shown me how rubbish skellies are but I suspect that would actually be quite a tough list to beat after taking 90/180 shots per turn. More for looks though than genuine threat!

Althwen
13-03-2012, 14:59
Hey,

I have just finished reading through almost this whole thread over the last couple of weeks, as I've been starting up my new TK army.

Has anyone ever tried going complete skelly horde? I'm thinking something like 4 units of 50 warriors, 3 units of 30 archers, 30 tomb guard with cheap level 4 and a budget prince for the TG.

It runs exactly 2400 and would look incredible on the table. My first few games have shown me how rubbish skellies are but I suspect that would actually be quite a tough list to beat after taking 90/180 shots per turn. More for looks though than genuine threat!



Nope, I haven't tried it. I do run a unit of 40 skellies sometimes purely because I like lots of skeletons, but basically I've found out that TK's is not so much of a horde army, but rather another elite army.

Having mass shooting with TK's is highly overrated unless you take Khalida.
Since there's no stand & shoot for us, you miss out on an extra round of shooting, and str 3 hits with 24" range that hit on 5's just isn't going to reliably take out anything.

If you want a ranged army without Khalida, I think you should restrict yourself to the shooting from your chariot units, maybe 30 archers (20-10), one or two catapults and your casket and your Warsphinx's breathweapon. this will fit in most 2k listst and will still leave room for some necroknights.

Going all skellie is setting yourself up to lose, methinks. Nonetheless, I'm curious to how you'll fare if you decide to go through with it :D

Naley
14-03-2012, 12:57
Ok so I finally have a thursday off and therfore I can finally get a game at the local shop :)
Will play a 1500 pts game against my cousins ogres:

Have come up with this list but need som input on what to do with the last points. Or maybe I shall do some changing?

50 Archers 294 pts
5 Horse archers 70pts
5 Horse archers 70pts
3 Chariots 135pts
3 Chariots 135pts
1 Warsphinx 210pts
1 lvl 2 Liche priest 105 pts
1 Tk king in chariot 225
= 1244 pts

Was thinking of maybe adding more chariots have 5 more or a unit of TG to protect my liche priest. I know the fighting phase will be hard since my skinny skellies will not last long against fast ogres currently on a winning streak.

Skywave
14-03-2012, 22:11
Your point value are off on a few units, and if you add command option (full command on Archers, banner and musician on both Chariots unit), plus fiery roar on he Sphinx, you get a list of 1400pts. That leave you 100pts to gear up your King on Chariot.

Also I would add 1 Chariot on one unit, so with the King on the other you'll have 2 unit of 4. Give one of them the flamming banner, don't how much regen the Ogres have access to, but it's cheap and if anythig it can help when shooting at a unit in a building :) To include all that, I would drop some Archers, wich would end up at about 39, so a nice 40 block when you put your Liche there ;)

Althwen
15-03-2012, 15:07
I don't have much faith in archers and find such large quantities a waste really.
Why not tone them down to the absolute minmum you require to meet the Core quota, and then use the rest of the points for putting a dispel scroll on the level 2 for defence, a fiery roar on the sphinx and maybe some ranged firepower in the form of a catapult or a casket?
Armour of protection is nice and cheap on the TK.

And skywave is right, you're way off on some of those point values. 3 chariots are 165 pts without any upgrades, for example.

Kage2612
15-03-2012, 15:19
following this.....

KimikoPT
21-03-2012, 14:27
Is the TK forum ( www.khemri.co.nr ) not working, or it's just me?

Chaos Wombat
21-03-2012, 14:41
I thought it was just me,but it must be down.Been trying to get on there since Monday afternoon.

oldWitheredCorpse
21-03-2012, 14:42
Is the TK forum ( www.khemri.co.nr ) not working, or it's just me?

No, I have the same problem. It's been down for two days. No message, it just refuses to load.

Deathbysoup
21-03-2012, 14:50
Im a bit confused. Some people are saying chariots over skelly archers and no skelly warriors but ive seen chariot core armies get fluffed to bits. My question is. What is the best combination of core units. Is it :

1)all chariots
2) 4 chariots and a large sponge unit of skellies
3) Chariots and skelly archers
4) dont bother with chariots.

I believe its quite an important decision as you need a solid backbone of the army. Ive so far only tried large units of skellie warriors and found that they are pretty good, while they don't kill anything just having the rank bonus means they stick around for a while until something comes to their rescue.

Althwen
21-03-2012, 16:04
Im a bit confused. Some people are saying chariots over skelly archers and no skelly warriors but ive seen chariot core armies get fluffed to bits. My question is. What is the best combination of core units. Is it :

1)all chariots
2) 4 chariots and a large sponge unit of skellies
3) Chariots and skelly archers
4) dont bother with chariots.

I believe its quite an important decision as you need a solid backbone of the army. Ive so far only tried large units of skellie warriors and found that they are pretty good, while they don't kill anything just having the rank bonus means they stick around for a while until something comes to their rescue.


There isn't a single right answer here, though there is one wrong answer and that's number 4. Every TK player should bother with chariots unless you're going for a particular strategy like a thousand archers with Khalida or something.

The thing with large Skelly blocks in a TK list is that they just aren't as good as other choices. they're not a complete waste of points, though.

In any army you'll probably want a nice balance between hammers and anvils/tarpits. The problem is that the Warpshinx is just so damn good that he actually manages to be an anvil with a serious bite added into the mix. A horde of infantry will probably have a harder time with a warsphinx than with a block of 50 skelly warriors, and the warsphinx will definetly have a chance of killing something in return, whereas skellies just don't do very much in combat.
A block of skellies has a larger footprint and will therefore be harder to support with countercharges. The sphinx's is small and ideal for another unit wanting to charge in your enemy's front if you haven't had the time or space to move to his flanks/rear.
Now with such an excellent anvil in your special, why would you want another anvil in your core? Best to spend those points on hammers, ie. chariots.
Ofcourse a large block of skellies can look frightening and counter steadfast units. And I like them myselves and somtimes bunker a mage in a unit of 30 just for the fun of it, but they are just outshone by other units.

As for archers: range 24", hits on 5+, str 3 is all nice and good when shooting at those darned Dark Elf shades, but nothing else will actually have to fear them.
I use maybe 14 as a bunker for a mage now and then.
TK's ranged firepower comes in the form of the Casket, the catapults AND (you guessed it) the Warsphinx's breath weapon. All of them are more reliable and more devastating. The fact that chariots also have 2 shots per model only adds to their usefullness and makes archers even more obsolete.

TK's is a challenging army with so many aspects that I find myself learning every battle. What I wrote above is only my experience gained from fighting my local metagame. Things may ofcourse be completely different for you and if you've experienced the complete opposite of me, I'd love to hear about it :D

LevDaddy
21-03-2012, 17:56
I gotta say my experience with TK has been quite different. I love my Skeleton Warrior bus with Tomb Prince + Warsphinx charges. The Warsphinx deals out the damage, and the Warriors break ranks while trying to minimize losses. This is often supported by a wonderful magic phase, but MWBD is one of the best "spells" we have, and it comes free with every Tomb Prince/King (as long as he stays alive). Obviously you wouldn't charge a horde of WOC or Bestigor or something, but there are a lot of juicy targets out there for that combo.

On the flip side, I've rarely had any luck fielding more than 1 unit of 20 Archers. My Core is usually a large Skeleton block, a medium unit of 4-5 Chariots, and 2 units of Horse Archers for annoyance and redirecting. Sometimes I bring the Skeleton Archers in varying numbers, but they just don't do enough consistent damage for me to justify costing more than Skeleton Warriors. This may also be a meta game thing as I see plenty of T4 and/or Armor Saves.


TK's is a challenging army with so many aspects that I find myself learning every battle.
This statement is as true as ever. Tomb Kings are not for the feint of heart, or those who dislike experimentation. I too find myself learning something about them and my play style with every battle.

Maglok
22-03-2012, 17:17
Yup TK forum seems down for now.

I sometimes go sphinx heavy, sometimes skeleton heavy. I think both can work and it keeps my regular opponents guessing as to what I am going to field.

Constructs? Entombed beneath the sand? Mass skeletons? Chariots? Heavy shoot? Double LVL 4? There are so many options if you just look deep enough. The few things I hardly touch are ushabti, carrion and swarms. Even the scorpion gets fielded once in a while.

oldWitheredCorpse
22-03-2012, 17:37
The few things I hardly touch are ushabti, carrion and swarms. Even the scorpion gets fielded once in a while.

Why not carrion? They can't fly more than 10 inches, but they're the best light cavalry we don't have. 3 are a throwaway, 5 are a light flanking force

Maglok
23-03-2012, 13:28
Mainly because I can field better things with the same price. :/

oldWitheredCorpse
24-03-2012, 16:44
Mainly because I can field better things with the same price. :/

What else in a our army can fly, strike like a ogre (and quicker!), and costs 12 slaves?

Spoonie
24-03-2012, 16:52
Only undead armies would use exclamation points about something being I3.

oldWitheredCorpse
25-03-2012, 21:32
Only undead armies would use exclamation points about something being I3.

Oh, it's not fantastic or anything, but I3 is exactly where the I stat stops being subpar and becomes average. I3 means that you're faster than many undead, most ogres, most (all?) dwarves, all CC capable lizardmen and all orcs. It's also on par with most of Bretonnia, Empire and Beast Men.

Spiney Norman
26-03-2012, 11:17
Ok so I finally have a thursday off and therfore I can finally get a game at the local shop :)
Will play a 1500 pts game against my cousins ogres:

Have come up with this list but need som input on what to do with the last points. Or maybe I shall do some changing?

50 Archers 294 pts
5 Horse archers 70pts
5 Horse archers 70pts
3 Chariots 135pts
3 Chariots 135pts
1 Warsphinx 210pts
1 lvl 2 Liche priest 105 pts
1 Tk king in chariot 225
= 1244 pts

Was thinking of maybe adding more chariots have 5 more or a unit of TG to protect my liche priest. I know the fighting phase will be hard since my skinny skellies will not last long against fast ogres currently on a winning streak.

Get your king some gear, I prefer a Killy build for a chariot king, so something to increase his attacks or strength, then a defensive item, either a ward save or trickster helm/glittering scales depending what points you have left. Whatever you choose, give him eitherthe dragonhelm or dragonbane gem as a priority, you dont want a cheeky firebelly ruining his day.

Also buy a fiery roar for your warsphinx, and consider combining your chariots into one unit with Full command for a real punch with the king, alternatively you could add a couple more chariots to one unit to host the king and take a second unit of three for flank support.

It's also worth looking at some arcane items, staff of channeling and enkils canopi are both good on L2s.

Necropolis knights are good vs ogres, but I'm not sure you really have room forth them at this size.




Your point value are off on a few units, and if you add command option (full command on Archers, banner and musician on both Chariots unit), plus fiery roar on he Sphinx, you get a list of 1400pts. That leave you 100pts to gear up your King on Chariot.

Also I would add 1 Chariot on one unit, so with the King on the other you'll have 2 unit of 4. Give one of them the flamming banner, don't how much regen the Ogres have access to, but it's cheap and if anythig it can help when shooting at a unit in a building :) To include all that, I would drop some Archers, wich would end up at about 39, so a nice 40 block when you put your Liche there ;)

Why put a musician on such a small chariot unit? The only affect they have for us is to allow swift reforms since we never flee, and I can only think of one viable formation for a 4 strong chariot unit.

Maglok
26-03-2012, 15:46
What else in a our army can fly, strike like a ogre (and quicker!), and costs 12 slaves?

I find they are a lot less usefull then in 7th, mainly because fly for us only means 10" it is annoying. They always die really quickly when it comes to my matches.

oldWitheredCorpse
26-03-2012, 17:05
I find they are a lot less usefull then in 7th, mainly because fly for us only means 10" it is annoying. They always die really quickly when it comes to my matches.

You did notice that they're offensive abilities were bumped up quite a lot to compensate, I hope? 3A at S4 is a lot better than 2A at S3.

Maglok
27-03-2012, 13:24
You did notice that they're offensive abilities were bumped up quite a lot to compensate, I hope? 3A at S4 is a lot better than 2A at S3.

That is true, maybe I will give them another chance. They have just not ever worked for me, but who knows. :)

ewar
28-03-2012, 08:12
Have any of the long time TK players here tried a mass ambush list?

In the one and only game I've used my necro knights in, it was great fun bringing them up behind the enemy and made me consider an entombed list.

I was thinking along the lines of 2 units of 4 knights, 2 scorpions and 3 stalkers. Perhaps with banner of the hidden dead to get 3 chariots there too. It would probably involve having the herald mounted and trying to get him as far froward on turn 1 (16" hopefully) so the 12" banner range extends into the enemy deployment zone.

Bit of a gimmick but could be fun - anyone tried something similar?

Althwen
28-03-2012, 10:31
Haven't tried that yet, but it has crossed my mind.
The cost of the banner scared me, though. Plus having to buy a character that you wouldn't normally buy for pure suckiness...

I was thinking, however, that maybe chariots aren't the best unit to entomb by means of the banner. It was my first thought as well, but imagine a unit of 41 skeletons with standard popping up behind enemy lines! And maybe they could actually pull off a victory by combining a rear charge plus their static combat resolution.

Now that would be fun :D

The big disadvantage, however, of an entombed army is that you'll hand your army to your opponent by piecemeal... The portion that will be set up at the start of the battle will be all on its own during the first turn and maybe longer if you fluff your dice. And since that portion has to hold your characters, methinks it will spell doom for most TK armies.

Symrivven
28-03-2012, 12:14
How are you going to fit 41 skeletons behind the enemies line? ;)

Either the enemy is moving forwards and you'll probably not catch up or they stand there shooting and you'll be hard pressed getting your skeletons in a usable formation between their line and the table edge.

ewar
28-03-2012, 13:29
Haven't tried that yet, but it has crossed my mind.
The cost of the banner scared me, though. Plus having to buy a character that you wouldn't normally buy for pure suckiness...

I was thinking, however, that maybe chariots aren't the best unit to entomb by means of the banner. It was my first thought as well, but imagine a unit of 41 skeletons with standard popping up behind enemy lines! And maybe they could actually pull off a victory by combining a rear charge plus their static combat resolution.

Now that would be fun :D

The big disadvantage, however, of an entombed army is that you'll hand your army to your opponent by piecemeal... The portion that will be set up at the start of the battle will be all on its own during the first turn and maybe longer if you fluff your dice. And since that portion has to hold your characters, methinks it will spell doom for most TK armies.

That is one possible outcome, true :)

However given that they come on a 3+ now, you should get 3 or 4 out of 5 ambushers and the rest in turn 3. The difficult part will either be keeping the BSB alive until stuff arrives or making sure he's in a decent place. However, I'd be happy to try the list without the BSB in - it just acts as a safety blanket really, to avoid those misfires.

As for the initial portion of the army being vulnerable, I suppose that's true, however if you were to focus heavily on ranged units (2 SSC, Casket, archers, some chariots for counter charging) then the enemy will have to either come to you or risk getting shot up for a few turns.

I also like the entombed skelly unit idea, I did consider something similar myself. Skellies may be rubbish but a horde coming on behind you is still going to cause issues.

Althwen
28-03-2012, 14:53
How are you going to fit 41 skeletons behind the enemies line? ;)

Either the enemy is moving forwards and you'll probably not catch up or they stand there shooting and you'll be hard pressed getting your skeletons in a usable formation between their line and the table edge.

Begone you spy, Leave us to our intricate planbrewings!!!

But yeah, fitting a unit of 40 skellies behind the lines may not work most of the time... but then I'm just thinking of ways to maximise the use of the banner. And since it only allows for a unit of infantry, cavalry or chariots up to 175 pts to be deployed via ETBS, your choices are rather limited:
-Skelly warriors
-Skellie archers (I think we can all agree that this is rather stupid to ETBS)
-Heavy cavalry (alrdy has vanguard, maybe, just maybe funny to try)
-Horse archers (alrdy have scout)
-Chariots

All of the other options fall outside of the 'infantry, cavalry or chariots' limitation

ewar
28-03-2012, 15:18
What I would like to know is, how did cruddace come up with 90pts for the banner?

If it was 50 it might be worth more of a punt... But 90 is a hell of a lot given it has such a tight point restriction on top. Maybe 90 and no restriction would be more appropriate?

Althwen
28-03-2012, 15:35
What I would like to know is, how did cruddace come up with 90pts for the banner?

If it was 50 it might be worth more of a punt... But 90 is a hell of a lot given it has such a tight point restriction on top. Maybe 90 and no restriction would be more appropriate?

Yeah, the 90 points is insane. But I think he reckoned that more people would actually go for a BSB since they are uber for undead.................... (enough dots to indicate sarcasm or MORE DOTS!?)
The lack of restrictions would be super uber though. Imagine a warsphinx or a Colossus or a unit of Ushabti surfacing behind the enemy by means of the banner!
Now that would definetly be worth a Herald with a 90 point pole :)

If he had made it cheaper to let's say 50 points so that it could be given to a unit of TG, it might have actually provided some synergy between two units.
But then, he didn't. That's my problem with Cruddace's work so far: It's good, but it never succeeds in bringing something new to the table and be innovative. Everything just turns out to be mediocre and leaves you with a feeling best represented by the My Will be Done-rule not affecting mounts.... why not? why the hell not?!

oldWitheredCorpse
28-03-2012, 15:50
All of the other options fall outside of the 'infantry, cavalry or chariots' limitation

A small unit of TG is also possible

ewar
29-03-2012, 13:27
Yeah, the 90 points is insane. But I think he reckoned that more people would actually go for a BSB since they are uber for undead.................... (enough dots to indicate sarcasm or MORE DOTS!?)
The lack of restrictions would be super uber though. Imagine a warsphinx or a Colossus or a unit of Ushabti surfacing behind the enemy by means of the banner!
Now that would definetly be worth a Herald with a 90 point pole :)

If he had made it cheaper to let's say 50 points so that it could be given to a unit of TG, it might have actually provided some synergy between two units.
But then, he didn't. That's my problem with Cruddace's work so far: It's good, but it never succeeds in bringing something new to the table and be innovative. Everything just turns out to be mediocre and leaves you with a feeling best represented by the My Will be Done-rule not affecting mounts.... why not? why the hell not?!

Sorry, when I said without restriction I was thinking just of the points limit. Entombed Colossus would be awesome though - would love to try that out!

I agree some of the choices are very strange. The worst offender is envenomed sting on a Necrosphinx. WHY?? You are literally paying points to take away the one special thing about it's attacks. Madness.

Spiney Norman
29-03-2012, 20:10
You did notice that they're offensive abilities were bumped up quite a lot to compensate, I hope? 3A at S4 is a lot better than 2A at S3.

It's quite easy to miss how good carrion are in combat because they die just as easily as they did last edition to shooting, there were times using the 6th ed book where I triumphantly charged my opponents cannons or catapults on the first turn with a mighty 40" charge from my carrion, but the most they can manage now is 10" on T1 unless your opponent is an idiot with his dispel dice (or very unlucky), which is pretty pitiful IMHO. Of all the units in our book they probably suffered the most from the nerfing of urgency and as such they can't be used in the same way they used to be. I still think they're a valuable part of a TK list, but an ace-card to neutralise your opponents war machines they are not. Stalkers have pretty much usurped that role as they can be laying into your opponents war machines from T2, whilst carrion realistically can't engage until T3 or later.

Folomo
30-03-2012, 13:46
**EDIT: forgot 2 thing. 1) what Jtrowell said below. 2) the chariot is 50x100 mm, not 40x80 mm. So, the herald would be on the side of the unit, not on the second rank. This makes this idea unrealizable.

No one has mentioned a 5xNecro knights full command + Herald BSB on chariot with the standart of the legion as a viable unit.
Ok, this unit can be smashed with cannons (assuming they hit the unit and kill the Necro in the front line, and the later has only a 1/2 chance of happening), but against army's without cannons (or one cannon, that you can kill with the casket) it should be really good.
The whole unit cost ~136 skelli points (similar to 24 TG with legion standart + a Prince in cost), does 11 str 4/5 attack + 9 str 5 attacks + 3 str 5 stomps against infantry. this is similar to 25 STR 5 attacks when charging.
It's really hard to kill, with T4, 3+ AS, 3W and the posibility to revive up to 1d6+3 wounds each magic fase. Also, is immune to the common stomp and thunderstomp (but will lose theirs).
The only way to get to the Herald is to kill the champion on your turn and then kill the herald on his or do 9+ wounds on your turn and then kill the herald on his. I find this kind of difficult to achieve.
Also, the unit has a move speed of 7 and swiftstride.

Im pretty sure the Herald can't attack from the second rank (being a hero on a chariot), but if this is wrong, then the unit gains 3 more STR 6 attacks.

thoughs?

jtrowell
30-03-2012, 15:03
A character on chariot cannot usually join units.

Our characters have a special rule allowing them to join *chariot* units only, so the herarld on chariot wouldn't be able to join the knights.

oldWitheredCorpse
30-03-2012, 15:22
there were times using the 6th ed book where I triumphantly charged my opponents cannons or catapults on the first turn with a mighty 40" charge from my carrion, but the most they can manage now is 10" on T1 unless your opponent is an idiot with his dispel dice (or very unlucky)

Yeah, it's a significant nerf, but if you didn't have a LHP, you rarely had more than 2 2D6 urgency in range to cast on them. This was usually possible to stop. If you have anything beside desert wind to cast in turn 1, the odds of getting off a 20" move in the first turn are similar, especially if you're prepared to pay for it with more than one Nehek caster.

Spiney Norman
31-03-2012, 09:00
Yeah, it's a significant nerf, but if you didn't have a LHP, you rarely had more than 2 2D6 urgency in range to cast on them. This was usually possible to stop. If you have anything beside desert wind to cast in turn 1, the odds of getting off a 20" move in the first turn are similar, especially if you're prepared to pay for it with more than one Nehek caster.

I used to take an obscene amount of magic in 6th edition, it wasn't uncommon for me to bring LHP, 2 LPs (one with casket) and a prince to a 2500 game, if I could get two priests in range of the carrion (LHP always had the mighty plaques) then I could be pretty sure of getting a charge off. The move to 8th caused me a bit of a problem because I could no longer fill my core up with 3x10 archers so I started running a king then to make chariots core, and yes, that pretty much killed my magic phase viability.

Folomo
02-04-2012, 16:49
so, a quick question. What wizard lvls do you deploy on 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 and 3000 pts games? What lores do you take on those games?

forgottenlor
02-04-2012, 19:16
I did once try a mass ambush list. Unfortunately got battle for the mountain pass as a scenario, and my opponent was so worried that I had so many entombed units that he turtled in a corner. Needless to say, things did not go well.

TsukeFox
03-04-2012, 17:00
So how do we feel about giving the Hierophant the flying cloak for quick escape options ?

Asuryan's Spear
03-04-2012, 18:03
I think its a bit pointless tbh. as he'll probab;y land on his own if they've broken through to your bunker and then he'll be wide open to small arms fire and any artillery left, which by this time will be desperate for targets

TsukeFox
03-04-2012, 20:05
I think its a bit pointless tbh. as he'll probab;y land on his own if they've broken through to your bunker and then he'll be wide open to small arms fire and any artillery left, which by this time will be desperate for targets

But in theory one can dance circles around the bunker hunting unit and if the Hierophant is close enough to an enemy unit- cannons at least cannot target them with a chance of hitting their own units 1st.

Further with the cloak of dunes one can escape ambushing units & into a friendly unit- albeit not Dwarf miners paired with the Anvil of Doom

forgottenlor
03-04-2012, 20:59
I've never used the cloak, but did play one game with my Ogres against an opponent using the cloak. It wasn't bad as his Hierophant was able to escape his archers before they got squashed and got in a wound or two with the special abilities. I'm not sure if its worth so many points though. Don't forget it used to cost half as much and the bearer could fly twice as far. The damage effect is nice, but I'd probably not invest too many points in it.

TsukeFox
03-04-2012, 21:14
No use in wishin for how things were in the day...

But I wish assassins were still 30 points a piece with weeping blades stock-MWhahahaha-!!

gdsora
03-04-2012, 23:09
I would never risk a Hierophant out of a unit, but hey I mostly play against armies with loads of ranged weaponry. It would be a death sentence for the poor guy.

LevDaddy
04-04-2012, 00:13
I don't think I'd do with my Hierophant, either, unless I wanted to Skullstorm someone. I get what you're saying about the added mobility keeping him safe, but I think you're spending a lot on mobility that will mostly go un-utillized.

A Lvl 4 with DEATH? Now you're talking! Or a Tomb King with some goodies, for instance any legal combo of Helm of Discord+Great Weapon, Shield of Ptolos+Dawnstone, Charmed Shield+Opal Amulet+ASF Sword, Blade of Antharak. That would be a lot of fun. I might have to try something like this out.

Althwen
04-04-2012, 10:33
Giving the LP the Cloak of Dunes is pointless imo. If you want him to be able to escape, there are cheaper ways than giving him a 50pt item. Move other units in support of the one he's currently in so that you can leave via the backdoor into or behind another unit.

About characters joining the Necroknights: If you'd want the Undying banner in them, you'd have to mount your herald on a steeds and have him tag along with the knights. However, why pay points for such a useless character that will die almost instantly in combat?
I myself have been thinking about a TK with the CLoak of Dunes and the other 50 pts in protective gear, to tag along with the Necroknights boosting their WS to 6.
With the cloak he'll be able to keep up with the Knights' higher movement withour slowing them down, and he can still move into support of other units who might need it.

Set him up like this:
Cloak of Dunes
Armour of silvered Steel
Dragon bane gem
Greatweapon

or:
Cloak of Dunes
Armour of protection (5++)
Potion of speed (+3 initiative to deal with small but strong units who would hit before you, like Chaos knights. Killing one or two of those before they get to hit makes quite the difference)
shield
dragonbane gem

gdsora
04-04-2012, 17:52
Giving the LP the Cloak of Dunes is pointless imo. If you want him to be able to escape, there are cheaper ways than giving him a 50pt item. Move other units in support of the one he's currently in so that you can leave via the backdoor into or behind another unit.

About characters joining the Necroknights: If you'd want the Undying banner in them, you'd have to mount your herald on a steeds and have him tag along with the knights. However, why pay points for such a useless character that will die almost instantly in combat?
I myself have been thinking about a TK with the CLoak of Dunes and the other 50 pts in protective gear, to tag along with the Necroknights boosting their WS to 6.
With the cloak he'll be able to keep up with the Knights' higher movement withour slowing them down, and he can still move into support of other units who might need it.

Set him up like this:
Cloak of Dunes
Armour of silvered Steel
Dragon bane gem
Greatweapon

or:
Cloak of Dunes
Armour of protection (5++)
Potion of speed (+3 initiative to deal with small but strong units who would hit before you, like Chaos knights. Killing one or two of those before they get to hit makes quite the difference)
shield
dragonbane gem

Unless you have a large enough unit of Knights (ie 5 knights not including the champion). Your king could get hit by any form of shooting, be it BS based and the hits have to be allocated, or template based and the King being unable to take a Look out sir.

TsukeFox
04-04-2012, 18:12
Sad the princes and kings cannot ride snakes...silly fluff

LevDaddy
04-04-2012, 19:29
Sad the princes and kings cannot ride snakes...silly fluff

I think it's more of an 8th Edition thing than fluff. None of the other MC's can have characters so far. It would've been sweet, though.

gdsora
04-04-2012, 19:32
Sad the princes and kings cannot ride snakes...silly fluff

That would be pretty awesome, way better then having a prince/king on a Sphinx.


As cool as it looks, I have a hard time justifying paying the price for a sphinx when it loses the awesome crew rules/attacks, and the king/prince now lose the ability to be able to buff troops.

Bad design in my eyes.

LevDaddy
04-04-2012, 19:34
That would be pretty awesome, way better then having a prince/king on a Sphinx.


As cool as it looks, I have a hard time justifying paying the price for a sphinx when it loses the awesome crew rules/attacks, and the king/prince now lose the ability to be able to buff troops.

Bad design in my eyes.

Horrendous design on that one! So annoying. You'll even lose the ability to heal the Sphinx (albeit just once per phase).

gdsora
04-04-2012, 19:39
Horrendous design on that one! So annoying. You'll even lose the ability to heal the Sphinx (albeit just once per phase).

AHA

Forgot about that.



At least the King gets that +1 to his Armor save, am I right?
:rolleyes:

meowser
04-04-2012, 22:03
The king displacing all 4 tomb guard is a bit ridiculous. I'd entertain him only displacing 1 to encourage a TK opponent to field one for variety

Spinocus
05-04-2012, 04:26
Sad the princes and kings cannot ride snakes...silly fluff

I'd gladly settle for the Necro Knights being able to take a 50pt magic banner instead... :(

Althwen
05-04-2012, 08:56
Unless you have a large enough unit of Knights (ie 5 knights not including the champion). Your king could get hit by any form of shooting, be it BS based and the hits have to be allocated, or template based and the King being unable to take a Look out sir.

Naturally, if you face lots of artillery, this isn't the best placement for your TK. But in my metagame I only face HE and DE shooting, which can be nasty, but hardly threatening to a TK in a unit.

Von Wibble
05-04-2012, 11:47
The king displacing all 4 tomb guard is a bit ridiculous. I'd entertain him only displacing 1 to encourage a TK opponent to field one for variety

Yes, I'd say the sphinx as an upgrade for a tomb king or prince should cost 150 points to account for all that it loses

Althwen
05-04-2012, 12:27
Yes, I'd say the sphinx as an upgrade for a tomb king or prince should cost 150 points to account for all that it loses

Displacing only one guard AND passing his WS to the Sphinx would still not make it overpowered.

TheDrugLordX
05-04-2012, 17:46
Just had to chip in here. Just WHY would you put a king for 270pts or so with a units of knights, that is likely to die to cannons (I'd go with cloak + charmed shield + 4+ ward just because of that btw), when you could get another unit of 4 necropolis knights for 260pts?

The Tomb King, as a character, is poorly designed and you're in 95% of the instances you're temped to take him better of taking something else (I strongly recommend necropolis knights).

The only reason to field a king would be if you have a reasonably strong Tomb Guard unit coupled with 2 (or more) death priests for spirit leech shenanigans. I'm actually going to try this out my next game (whenever that happens) and see if even that is worth it...

Von Wibble
06-04-2012, 14:55
Imo another good reason for a king is the death mask.