PDA

View Full Version : Tactica: Tomb Kings 8th Edition Book



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Esco Thomson
14-04-2011, 23:35
Lords
Tomb King - The Curse, Flammable, My Will Be Done. Has LA and HW, and can take a GW, Flail, Spear, and/or S. Mounts: Skeleton Chariot or a Khemrian Warsphinx.

Well on the surface one might not notice too much has changed from the Tomb King of old...however there are a few noted differences. His MWBD is no longer a spell based ability, and instead transfers his unmodified(important note)weapon skill to his unit. As far as combat characters go, he is a solid hitter, and a very respectable tank due to higher than average Lords starting wounds. I expect to see a lot of Tomb King's fielded with the Death Mask, GW, and insert your remaining defensive kit here. Mounting him really only seems to be a liability IMHO as it will often be easier to clear out his ride from below him, or paste them both in the case of the monster mount.

High Liche Priest - Level 3 Wizard, can upgrade to level 4. Can choose the Lore of Nehekhara, Light, or Death. Mounts: Skeletal Steed.

Heroes
Tomb Prince - The Curse, Flammable, My Will Be Done. Has LA and HW, and can take a GW, Flail, Spear, and/or S. Mounts: Skeleton Chariot or a Khemrian Warsphinx.

Along with his Lord counterpart, the Tomb Prince has remained much the same, with the MWBD being the notable difference. He shares the same strengths and weakness to fire, and has the same mundane and mount options. Tomb Princes seem to be the way to go, if MWBD spam is your goal, as they are cheaper than the TK and the WS difference is negligible at best.

Tomb Herald - Flammable, Killing Blow, Sworn Bodyguard. Has LA and HW, and can take a GW, Flail, Spear, Halberd, and/or S. Mounts: Skeleton Chariot or a Skeletal Steed. May upgrade to a BSB.

Extreme Makeover Icon Bearer Edition! This is the new Icon Bearer, with a few changes, notably his fear of fire and his bodyguard rule, which acts as a pseudo LOS for a nominated TK/TP in his unit once per phase, where the Herald steps in and takes the hit instead of Jack Skellington. He might see some use in Construct heavy lists, or to provide some protection for DoE wielding TK's, but I am not so sure on him yet. I would be more interested if there was a Magic Banner I had to have, as the list is somewhat limited in who can take them.

Liche Priest - Level 1 Wizard, can upgrade to level 2. Can choose the Lore of Nehekhara, Light, or Death. Mounts: Skeletal Steed.

Necrotect - Flammable, Stone Shaper, Wrath of the Creator, Hatred. Has LA, HW, and Whip.

The new hero choice, and boy is he a feisty one! He is fairly close to a Herald in stats, but that isn't where his power lies. He can grant nearby Constructs Regeneration 6+(Game Changer Alert...). Oh, he also gives the unit he is in Hatred. Which is why you take him. Couples quite nicely with the changes to MWBD, and this guy is actually fairly cheap. I expect to see him in just about every list.

Core
Skeleton Warriors - Unit size 10+ Has HW and S, can also take LA and/or Spears.

They are cheaper now, and lost a unit cap, which is great. They will make decent tar pits, or speed bumps depending how large you field them, and whether or not you give them character support. At this point, I think honestly fielding them as is, is the way to go, but Spears may have merit if you plan on making them a combat unit with buffs, but I would advise just starting with a unit that is good at combat.

Skeleton Archers - Unit size 10+ Arrows of Asaph. Has HW and Bow, can also take LA.

Same deal as the warrior counterparts really. Would have loved to see stand and shoot as a charge reaction, but it isn't there. Shooting is a mixed bag in 8th, well non war machine fire, for the most part. A lot of it probably comes down to your current meta as well. After talking to GM today though, he was quick to open my mind to the merit that they have for flushing out core, and creating soft spots for squishy priests to land.

Skeleton Horsemen - Unit size 5+ Vanguard. Has Spear and S, can also take LA.

Fear the TK "heavy" cavalry...well technically most armies do, but they shouldn't. These guys just don't catch a break. I mean they aren't terrible, but cavalry is rather hit and miss, and usually reserved for really "good" cavalry units. There might be some uses for being faster and going after war machines, etc. I don't see it yet, but the book isn't technically out at this point either.

Skeleton Horse Archers - Unit size 5+ Arrows of Asaph, Fast Cavalry, and Scouts.

These guys are pretty versatile for their points. While they aren't likely to just fell war machines in one go, unless you field a LARGE unit, they can be pretty good at harassing, and diverting. They can get in close and either pepper the enemy, or move in for the charge on subsequent rounds on VERY soft targets.

Skeleton Chariots - Unit size 3+ And the Tomb Kings Rode to War, Arrows of Asaph, Chariot Legions. Has Spears and Bows. One unit may take a magic standard up to 25 points.

Initially I was pretty much impressed with these guys. The drivers picked up an extra attack, they gained rank bonus at 3 wide, and gained a version of the Ogre Bull Charge picking up a strength bonus for impact hits for ranks behind the first. Also their impact hits increased to 1d6. However, they did retain a shoddy armor save, and a hefty points increase for their trouble, as well as losing their Fast Cavalry rule. They are able to take a magic standard, though it is one unit of chariots only, and capped at 25 points. They are core though, and can be pretty solid flankers due to a higher move than most of the army.

Special
Tomb Guard - Unit size 10+ Killing Blow. Has LA and S, may take Halberds, and may take a magic standard up to 50 points.

Good old Tomb Guard, now without the hindrance of a unit size cap. Also a new equipment option is very much welcomed. They lost magical attacks in exchange for having the KB special rule, which means you will have to find other ways of dealing with Ethereal units, and Forest Spirits are happier(if they can stop being emo long enough in 8th edition), but also means you are free to kit them out with Flaming Attacks from a certain Magic Standard if you should choose. Halberds are a pretty solid choice, as it gives you some solid hitting power, and you don't have exactly "stellar" armor saves to begin with, so the S isn't missed too much. I expect these to be fielded as mainstay combat troops, or as "death stars" loaded up with a few characters. I am thinking unit sizes of 30+ will be the normal.

Necropolis Knights - Unit size 3+ Animated Construct, Killing Blow(Riders only), Poisoned Attacks(Necroserpent only), Stone Hide. Has Spear, may be upgraded to have the Entombed Beneath the Sands special rule.

The lovingly posed snake surfing knights...They have a decent armor save at least, and can do some damage in combat, but Bloodcrushers they are not. Pretty pricey as well, though might have some decent uses popping up from below to try and hit flanks and rears of engaged enemies.

Tomb Scorpion - Unit size 1 Animated Construct, Entombed Beneath the Sands, Killing Blow, Magic Resistance(1), Poisoned Attacks.

The scorpion lost a wound for his troubles, and didn't gain anything. He remains the same as ever, with his main role being to hunt soft targets. Not a bad choice by any means, but nothing to really jump up and down about now that he can't just pop up and into a war machine.

Ushabti - Unit size 3+ Animated Construct, Arrows of Asaph. Has GW and HW, may swap GW for either Great Bows or Additional HWs.

I have seen quite a few folks who are very excited for the Great Bow option, and I have to initially disagree with the excitement. They do not have a greater BS, and are still a large points investment for what is by default a single shot weapon. They lost the base strength 6, and with it the lovely high strength Stomp attack. I won't go out and say they are terrible because they did have a significant drop in points, but they remain a really cool model at least.

Tomb Swarm - Unit size 2-10 Entombed Beneath the Sands, Poisoned Attacks.

Drop in points, and moved to Special choice. These guys are honestly probably a better buy than a Tomb Scorpion if you want to delegate something to hide and pop up for dedicated War Machine hunting. They aren't anything special, but they should do the job, and for the cost of 2 bases, you will end up with more attacks, and wounds than a single scorpion, and have some points to spare.

Carrion - Unit size 3+ Fly.

Khemrian Warsphinx - Unit size 1 and 4 crew Animated Construct, Howdah Crew, Killing Blow(Crew only), Large Target, Terror, Thundercrush Attack. Crew come with Spears, Warsphinx may take Envenomed Sting and/or Fiery Roar upgrades.

This is something I am excited for. The breath weapon upgrade is, as its name implies, flaming. Which is a pretty useful these days. It has the lowest Initiative possible, whilst still having one, so will need to pray to dodge PoS and PSoX, but what Undead army wants to get hit by those? Granted a Hydra beats it(barely), and is a chunk less, he still sees play. These guys are fantastic at churning large infantry blocks. Thundercrush, crew attacks, and Thunderstomp can lay the serious hurt. To maximize your Thundercrush, try to boost the WS with Lore of Light.

Sepulchral Stalkers - Unit size 3+ Animated Construct, Entombed Beneath the Sands, Transmogrifying Gaze. Has Halberds.

These guys look pretty neat. The gaze would be great if it was allowed to tag War Machines, and as such, there are actually only several realistic targets for it. Most of which have better options available to you. They may prove to be decent harassment units, but would love it if the Wizards had access to Shadows.

Rare
Necrolith Colossus - Unit size 1 Animated Construct, Arrows of Asaph, Large Target, Terror, and Unstoppable Assault. Has HW, may take Additional HW, GW, or Bow of the Desert

Traded in his armor for Toughness and a points drop. He can do some solid damage on blocks, especially with a WS boost.

Hierotitan - Unit size 1 Animated Construct, Large Target, Spirit Conduit, and Terror. Has Icon of Ptra and Scales of Usirian.

A Liche buried in a Bone Giant of old, with fluff describing it basically as a giant piece of "bling"... This is your magic buffing statue of doom. Similar to the Colossus, with less attack. He will work best if you have multiple wizards nearby, as he can increase the casting levels. Has the default spells from the Lores of Light and Death as Bound Spells, and isn't too terribly priced. Will be a decent pick should you decide to go magic heavy, and likely mandatory in that event.

Necrosphinx - Unit size 1 Animated Construct, Decapitating Strike, Fly, Killing Blow, Large Target, and Terror. May be upgraded to take Envenomed Sting.

He flies, his wings can't support him, get over it. Maybe he turned in a few millenniums’ worth of frequent flyer miles, maybe he stole Eldar Grav technology, who knows/cares. This is your monster killer. He is pretty good at it as well. Flying is really what makes this guy tick. As without marching, it does make him pretty fast still. And while it might not be his purpose, does give him the ability to maneuver to other targets as needed(war machines, etc.). Decapitating strike lets one attack hit max strength and HKB which is nice, but not exactly dependable, so don't get caught with your pants down praying for it.

Screaming Skull Catapult - Unit size 1 Screaming Skull Catapult and 3 Skeleton Crew Screaming Skulls. Crew come with HW and LA, Screaming Skull Catapult may be upgraded to take Skulls of the Foe.

Overall still a very useful piece of artillery. Flaming and magical attacks that cause panic from one wound is pretty solid, just like it was. No more double tapping, which is sad, but overall this thing is still worth its weight in gold. The upgrade became more expensive, most likely because of the Death Mask, which couples quite nicely with this piece.

Casket of Souls - Unit Size 1 Casket of Souls, 1 Keeper of the Casket, and 2 Casket Guards. Covenant of Power, Killing Blow(Casket Guard only), Light of Death, and Unleashed Souls. Keeper of the Casket Has LA and HW, Casket Guard come with LA and GWs.

The Casket underwent some serious changes as well. Moving to a Rare selection, and no longer a character mount is a good thing. One or more of them on the field act as a HE Standard of Sorcery which is quite awesome, and Light of Death is now a Bound Spell, but you can't use it is you moved. The Light however is better as it is a LD test on three dice, and bounces on a 3+ to enemy units within 6". You are not able to hit the same enemy more than once a phase though. Has a chance to ping anyone near if it dies. The Casket Guard should be noted as not being Tomb Guard anymore, they have lower stats now.

Magic Items
Destroyer of Eternities(Tomb King on Foot Only) - Magic Weapon that grants +2 Strength and the Heroic Killing Blow ability. Can exchange all of the wielder's attacks to inflict one automatic hit on all enemy models in base contact. Will hit both rider and mount, and will only hit the model involved in a challenge where applicable, these hits also benefit from +2 Strength and HKB.

Blade of Antarhak - Magic Weapon that for every unsaved wound inflicted by the blade, the wielder regains one wound, if the wielder is already at their starting wounds, they gain Regeneration until the end of the next player turn.

Golden Death Mask of Kharnut - Enchanted Item that grants the bearer Terror, in addition all enemy units within 6" cannot make use of their General's Inspiring Presence rule or their BSB's Hold Your Ground rule.

Cloak of the Dunes(Infantry Character on Foot Only) - Enchanted Item that allows bearer to fly, in addition if the bearer moves over any unengaged enemy units in the remaining moves phase, that unit suffers 2d6 Strength 2 hits distributed as shooting. The bearer may move over several units hitting them all, but will only cause one set of hits per unit per movement phase.

Neferra's Scrolls of Mighty Incantations - Arcane Item, one use only. Declare use prior to casting a spell, the Wizard adds a number of bonus dice equal to his caster level to the Power Dice that they were going to use(you must use at least one PD from the pool). These bonus dice do not count as PD, however any double rolled while casting this spell will result in Irresistible Force and a Miscast.

Enkhil's Kanopi - Arcane Item, Bound Spell Power Level 3, if successfully cast roll a 1d6 for each Remains In Play Spell on the table. On a 2+ that spell is immediately dispelled. Adds 1d3 PD to your pool for each spell dispelled this way.

Standard of the Undying Legion - Magic Standard, Bound Spell Level 5, Augment Spell if successfully cast the bearer's unit immediately regains 1d6+2 wounds worth of models.

Banner of the Hidden Dead - Magic Standard, Nominate one of your units of Infantry, Cavalry, or Chariots with the Nehekharan Undead rule that has yet to deploy, and is no greater than 150 points. That unit gains the Entombed Beneath the Sands rule, and when that unit emerges, you must place the marker within 12" of the banner's bearer. Additionally any units emerging from EBtS with a marker within 12" of the banner's bearer may re roll the artillery and scatter dice when emerging.

Lore of Nehekhara
Lore Attribute - The Restless Dead: Each time a wizard successfully casts an augment spell from the Lore of Nehekhara on a friendly Nehekharan Undead unit, that unit regains 1d3 + 1 wounds worth of models. Units with the Animated Constructs Rule can only ever regain a single lost wound this way, per magic phase.

Signature Spell - Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind
Casting: 8+ [Boost 16+]
Range: 12" Radius [Boost 24" Radius]
Augment Spell If successful targets all friendly unengaged Nehekharan Undead units within 12"/24", those units can immediately make a normal move as it were the Remaining Moves phase. No unit may move more than once per magic phase per this spell, but may still be targeted in order to use the Lore Attribute.

1 - Djaf's Incantation of Cursed Blades
Casting: 7+ [Boost 10+]
Range: 12" [Boost 24"]
Augment Spell Target unit within 12"/24" gains the Killing Blow ability for close combat attacks until the start of the caster's next magic phase. If the target already has the Heroic Killing Blow/Killing Blow ability, the ability will trigger on a 5+ instead of a 6+.

2 - Neru's Incantation of Protection
Casting: 9+ [Boost 18+]
Range: 12" [Boost 12" Radius]
Augment Spell Target unit/all friendly Nehekharan Undead units gain a 5+ ward save until the start of the caster's next magic phase.

3 - Ptra's Incantation of Righteous Smiting
Casting: 9+ [Boost 18+]
Range: 12" [Boost 24" Radius]
Augment Spell Target unit/all friendly Nehekharan Undead units has their attacks characteristic increased by one until the start of the caster's next magic phase. Additionally if the target(s) are armed with a bow or great bow, they gain the Multiple Shots (2) rule.

4 - Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance
Casting: 10+
Range: 18" [Boost 36"]
[B]Hex Spell The target unit suffers - 1d3 to its movement (to a minimum of one) and treats all terrain (including open ground) as Dangerous Terrain until the start of the caster's next magic phase.

5 - Usekhp's Incantation of Desiccation
Casting: 11+
Range: 24" [Boost 24"]
[B]Hex Spell The target has -1 Strength and -1 Toughness (both to a minimum of one) / -1d3 Strength and Toughness (both to a minimum of one) until the start of the Caster's Next Magic Phase.

6 - Sakhmet's Incantation of the Skullstorm
Casting: 15+
Range: Artillery Die x Wizard Level [Boosted Artillery Die x Wizard Level]
Remains in Play [B]Magical Vortex Place the small/large template and nominate direction. Misfire centers template on caster and moves in a random direction. Models touched by template suffer a Strength 4 hit.

Special Characters
Settra the Imperishable - The Curse, Flammable, My Will Be Done, and Settra the Great. Has The Blessed Blade of Ptra, LA, Chariot of the Gods, The Crown of Nehekhara, The Scarab Brooch of Usirian. Settra is also a Level 1 Wizard who must use the Lore of Nehekhara and may be your army's Hierophant.

High Queen Khalida - Always Strikes First, Blessing of Asaph, The Curse, Flammable, Hatred(Vampire Counts, Incarnation of the Asp Goddess, and Poisoned Attacks. Has The Venom Staff and LA.

Arkhan the Black - The Curse and Flammable. Has The Tomb Blade of Arkhan, LA, The Liber Mortis, and the Staff of Nagash. May be mounted on a Skeleton Chariot, and the Chariot may be upgraded with 2 additional Skeleton Steeds, and/or to gain the Fly special rule. Arkhan is a Level 4 wizard who must use the Lore of Death and may be your army's Hierophant.

Grand Hierophant Khatep - Grand Hierophant of Khemri and Loremaster(Lore of Nehekhara). Has HW, The Liche Staff, and Scroll of the Cursing Word. Khatep is a level 4 wizard who must use the Lore of Nehekhara, and must be your army's Hierophant.

The Herald Nekaph - Flammable, Herald of Despair, Killing Blow, Sworn Bodyguard, and Settra's Champion. Has Flail of Skulls and LA. May be mounted on a Skeleton Chariot or Skeleton Steed.

Prince Apophas - Desert Revenant, Entombed Beneath the Sands, Fly, Regeneration, Scarab Prince, Soul Reaper, Strider, and Terror. Has HW and LA.

Ramhotep the Visionary - Flammable, Frantic Fervour, Master Artisan, Frenzy, Stone Shaper, Wrath of the Creator, and Hatred. Has HW, Whip, and LA.

vinny t
15-04-2011, 04:26
Just going to throw in my 2 cents here early, but I can see a monster mash TK list performing very well. If one were to take 2 warsphinxes, 2 Colossi, and a unit of 6 ushabti, there are still plenty of points to spend. The key word here is target priority, and when coupled with EBTS, you can ensure that shooting will be pressured from very early on.

Nocculum
15-04-2011, 05:24
Golden Death Mask of Kharnut - Enchanted Item that grants the bearer Terror, in addition all enemy units within 6" cannot make use of their General's Inspiring Presence rule or their BSB's Hold Your Ground rule.

This is immense for breaking Horde formations!

WarhammerNoob4ever
15-04-2011, 05:55
With the change to EBtS (well the change to ICfB), i think Stalkers are actually going to be a good source of warmachine hunters for us because they wont waste a turn when they ambush on, they can actually shot at something (unlike any of the other units with EBtS) and they seem to be fairly solid W3, T4, with at least a 5+AS (not sure on exact stats) they will need more than just small arms fire to prevent them from pillaging warmachines

I really want to mount a TK or TP on a warsphinx, though i know it isnt ideal, what are ppl thinking for item load out?

Ratbeast
15-04-2011, 07:23
With the change to EBtS (well the change to ICfB), i think Stalkers are actually going to be a good source of warmachine hunters for us because they wont waste a turn when they ambush on, they can actually shot at something (unlike any of the other units with EBtS) and they seem to be fairly solid W3, T4, with at least a 5+AS (not sure on exact stats) they will need more than just small arms fire to prevent them from pillaging warmachines

I really want to mount a TK or TP on a warsphinx, though i know it isnt ideal, what are ppl thinking for item load out?

Items for a king, i can see Golden Death Mask of Kharnut, GW weop for some killing power and 4 plus ward save item being a very strong choice

As for a lvl 2 liche, Neferra's Scrolls of Mighty Incantations, throwing dice down on the boosted plus 1 attack spell being fun, too risky on your heiro due to high chance of miscast, but a lowly lvl 2, people wouldnt be so scared about getting doubles.

theJ
15-04-2011, 08:06
hm... put priests with the archers, and have them advance behind the warriors... aspey arrows ensures they lose nothing from moving or having the warriors stand in front of them, while the priest is allowed some ablatives, while being kept close enough to the warriors to buff 'em, without actually standing IN the fight proper...

Seems keeping multiple characters is gonna be the way to go... they add way too much to the army to skip out on (magic, buffs, etc.).

Yamabushi
15-04-2011, 08:06
According to the TK forums, the Death Mask costs 60% of a lord's magical item allowance, it is a bit on the steep side, so I doubt you can get much protection.

Death Mask + Fencers Blades + Dragonbane Gem. In a unit with his sworn bodyguard equipped with the Armor of Destiny perhaps?

Chris_
15-04-2011, 08:10
I'd rather have Mask + Armour of Fortune + Dragonbane Gem + GW or something. The bodyguard can only redirect one hit per phase if I'm reading the rumours correct.

Yamabushi
15-04-2011, 08:13
Yup, coupled with the fact that we cannot heal our characters... gotta use him wisely.

Also, what do you guys think of Halberds of TG? Worth the 2 points per TG?

Ratbeast
15-04-2011, 10:27
Yup, coupled with the fact that we cannot heal our characters... gotta use him wisely.

Also, what do you guys think of Halberds of TG? Worth the 2 points per TG?

Yup, worth 2 points, what not to like about strenght 5 attacks, with weop still 5 or 6 most times

Chris_
15-04-2011, 13:10
I agree, will definitely run my Tomb Guard with halberds even though it made no sense to make halberded TG as expensive as GW GG... And the best thing is that it leaves the hand weapons to be used on skellies :D

Deff Mekz
15-04-2011, 13:24
I think that Chariots will be suprisingly good Hellpit killers. Equpping them with the flaming banner will mean that they can put up to 18 S4 (S5+ if in ranks) into the hellpit before it has even struck back. The resulting wave of S4 spear attacks should definatley finish the job. If you were to use them for Abom hunting, you would have to use them in ranks for them to be at their most effective however.

IIRC Godless said that on average the chariots inflict 10 IH. So at S5, that will mean 10 hits, causing 5 wounds, almost enough to kill the Abom out right!

People are bashing scorpions as useless now but are forgetting one thing. They had it coming. They were overpowered in 7th and now they've been toned down to were they should be. Scorpions will no longer be a "one man army" unit you will need to use in conjunction with other units. Tomb Kings work best if you put the enemy in a dammed if they do, dammed if they don't situation. Take this for eg;

10 Light Horsemen and one newly risen scorpion are about to pose a threat to a warmachine. The warmachine (we'll say it is a cannon for all purposes of this post) can either target the scorpion, probally killing it, saving itself from be destroyed by the Scorp and possibly other warmachines being destroyed too. However if the player destroys the scorpion, the horsemen will simply charge the cannon instead and destroy it. Did I mention those horsemen are ranked? So your oppenent could risk being flank charged on his precious battle bus unit, therefore removing ranks from the unit. So he may decide to go for the horsemen instead leaving the Scorp unharmed. Either way for Tomb Kings, it's a win-win situation. :D

Deff.

Edit: Really nice analysis Esco, and thanks for starting a thread.

Odlox
15-04-2011, 14:04
No skelletal steed for characters? Not for any of them?

Asymmetric
15-04-2011, 14:04
Skeleton Chariots - Unit size 3+ And the Tomb Kings Rode to War, Arrows of Asaph, Chariot Legions special rules. Comes with Spears and Bows. One unit may take a magic standard of up to 25 points.

Initially I was pretty much impressed with these guys. The drivers picked up an extra attack, they gained rank bonus at 3 wide, and gained a version of the Ogre Bull Charge picking up a strength bonus for impact hits for ranks behind the first. Also their impact hits increased to 1d6. However, they did retain a shoddy armor save, and a hefty points increase for their trouble, as well as losing their Fast Cavalry rule. They are able to take a magic standard, though it is one unit of chariots only, and capped at 25 points. They are core though, and can be pretty solid flankers due to a higher move than most of the army.


Nice analysis. I think it's also worth adding in the write up that they slashed the cost of the chariots command options.




Special

Necropolis Knights - Unit size 3+ Animated Construct, Killing Blow(Riders only), Poisoned Attacks(Necroserpent only), Stone Hide special rules. Comes with Spear, may be upgraded to have the Entombed Beneath the Sands special rule.


My first reaction to this unit when I heard its point cost was it was simply to damn expensive, but recently I've been paying it a little more attention due to 2 factors.

1) The entombed beneath the sands upgrade is dirt cheap on them apparently. Now normally when we think of ambushers, EBTS users, scouts, etc we think of small harassment units off warmachine hunting, wizard sniping, taking potshots at light cavalry and such. This unit is different however.

3+ necropolis knights turning up directly behind the enemy main battleline is more than a simple annoyance, it's a serious threat to the enemys fighting blocks. No unit wants to fight necropolis knights in there rear (or flanks) while also having ranks of skeletons/tombguard advancing on there front and that situation will happen an awful lot with the EBTS rules. Being able to put down a powerful combat unit where you need it is a powerful tool.

2) The necrotect special character. For those that don't know he adds frenzy and hatred to a unit and grants constructs within 12" a 6 regen save. However he also has one more ability, 1 random construct gets re-roll failed armour saves all game. With 3+ saves and rerolls necropolis knights become extremely hard to kill with low strength attacks. Use the EBTS to pick a suitable target (say... massed ranks of high elf spearmen) and then go

Esco Thomson
15-04-2011, 14:15
Thanks for the kind words, and sorry it is taking me a bit longer to finish putting up the rest of the skeleton(lol, pun intended) of this. I will be editing in some more shortly, and some more analysis.

One thing to note of this, I have played TK since before the split, and have had a lot of time with the new book, but won't be as rash to make any severe final judgements as it is just too soon to see how everything pans out.

Odlox
15-04-2011, 14:53
An idea for those who find the new Scorpion to be lacking compared to 2x swarm (i do), is to glue a skellie/tg to the tomb scorp, give it a chariot base and you have a excelent necro knight!

Anyone know if there is any rule that prevent a character from leaving a unit, and joining the same unit again in one move? Could be fun to have a lvl 1 with the cloak of dunes to fly 5" out, hit a unit and fly 5" back into the unit. Excelent against harpies and such.

teddet
15-04-2011, 15:02
One unit i intend to try out is 8 chariots w. full command. Assuming I'm going at a 5 ranked 20mm unit, I should be able to get all four in base to base. That's 4d6 (average 14) s5 hits. vs empire soldiers, I probably take off two ranks with my impact hits (maybe three if I'm lucky). Then it's 8 horse attacks, and 16 crew attacks. (and I have to lose 12 wounds before I'm losing any of those attacks). Vs. toughness 3, it's 2 more wounds from the horses (on average), and roughly 6 wounds from the crew.

If he's in horde formation with 20mm troops, I can get something in on the corners to help with attacks...

Plus the unit takes up a large part of my core.

Thoughts?

Bac5665
15-04-2011, 15:12
Yup, worth 2 points, what not to like about strenght 5 attacks, with weop still 5 or 6 most times

I could not disagree more.

What roll are TG playing in a TK list? The answer had better not be to kill things, cause with only 1 attack TG will never be able to hold their own against anything truly killy, at least not by killing it back. TG are best used as a tarpit HLP+TK bunker. With that use the shields are the better choice for 2 points less, they get a 6+ regen and WS 6 to make them harder to hit.

There is no non-character 20mm infantry in the TK list that should ever be taken with the intent to cause wounds. They are all less efficient than other armies options at that roll. Use them as tarpits and speed bumbs and bunkers; anything else is not wise.

Now, 40 TG with characters make a great anvil for chariots, Ushabti, a War Sphinx, etc. The only question is whether or not the TK are 3 times better at that roll than the skeletons you could have bought. I'd guess that they are, but I confess I'm not sure. One reason that TG might be the better tarpit is that they can take the undying banner, which lets them heal 1d6+1d3+3 wounds if it goes off. Now that's some raising.

GreenSpeed
15-04-2011, 15:16
Skelliton horsemen aren't great at killing war machines, only two cavalry sized models may attack the warmachine crew, at weapon skill 2 and strength 3 they aren't going to do much damage, but I guess it depends on the type of crew they are fighting. They can take out goblin crews, but I wouldn't try it against dwarf warmachines.

EdFireborn
15-04-2011, 15:19
The Khalida/Archer horde idea thats been floating around looks pretty decent. Can't say I like it in one sense as its a sort of deathstar that is horribly squishy (and relies on magic to buff it).

I'm thinking of personally running a large magic list. coupled with a tomb king and herald/princes to buff two large anvils of warriors and an anvil of tomb guard. Constructs for flank mayhem and a unit of swarms/stalkers to harass the rear.

If its not too expensive. Thinking of running the following list (~2250 points)

TK, Destroyer of Eternites, Light Armour, Shield, Talisman of Endurance. OR. Death Mask, Great Weapon, Light Armour.

HLP, Level 4, Talisman of Perservation.

TP, Cloak of Dunes, Great Weapon, Light armour. OR. Death Mask, Great Weapon, Light armour.

Herald, Armour of Silvered Steel (in unit with TK & Destroyer of Eternites?)

LP, Level 2 Light.

LP, Level 1 Death, Dispel Scroll.

3x 10 Skeleton Archers

2x 25 Skeleton Warriors, Spears, Shields, Light Armour, Standard.

1x 6 Chariots. Full Command

2x 5 Light Horseman OR 1x5 Light Horseman & 1x5 Heavy Horseman

1x3 Upgraded Knights (Entombed...)

2x Warsphinx

1x 25 Tomb Guard, Halbards.

2x Swarm

1x Colossus with Great Weapon.

1x Casket

Tactics, psuedo-gunline meets hammer and anvil. Army moves up slowly, uses archers with the 5+ to prevent skrmishers and small units flanking. Heavies such as colossus and warsphinxes hold flanks from larger units and heavy cav. Magic to defensively buff units through light and tk lore with death to annoy via sprit leech (and correct me if this can't happen under 8th) hopefully get the dreadknight spell to sow some terror in low ld armies.

This is just a rough guide based off the information above me and in other threads. I await my book with anticipation. I imagine quite a few sneaky lists will be following =)

Deff Mekz
15-04-2011, 15:41
but I wouldn't try it against dwarf warmachines.

Neither would I, that's why they invented Sephurcal Stalkers.

Skyros
15-04-2011, 15:41
one attack tomb guard will fare fine against the books where the 'elite' infantry only have one attack, like dwarves and empire :)

And you do have a spell to give them an additional attack...can't count on it, of course.

EdFireborn
15-04-2011, 15:59
one attack tomb guard will fare fine against the books where the 'elite' infantry only have one attack, like dwarves and empire :)

And you do have a spell to give them an additional attack...can't count on it, of course.

Its a fairly reliable cast (9+) and with most people running large amounts of magic and a compulsory priest with that lore, quite likely haha.

The real value of the halberds is to chop through heavy armour units hopefully augmented by some kind of I10 spell (if only we had light... oh wait!) in addition to killing blow. 1 attack per model should more than suffice for that task.

the anti-horde will be terror causing units and constructs that can dish out a large number of painful attacks.

The_Bureaucrat
15-04-2011, 16:01
Skelliton horsemen aren't great at killing war machines, only two cavalry sized models may attack the warmachine crew, at weapon skill 2 and strength 3 they aren't going to do much damage, but I guess it depends on the type of crew they are fighting. They can take out goblin crews, but I wouldn't try it against dwarf warmachines.

+1 CR for charging and possibly +1 for rank and +1 standard. Also don't forget will be higher str on charge and that the horses can attack as well.
The point of war machine hunters is just to tie up the war machine, killing it is a bonus.


That said I think I'm liking stalkers more for war machine hunting. You pop out and if you get lucky you can kill a war rmachine with the gaze, if you do than you combine a charge with maybe some knights in the flank/rear and prevent the unit from combat reforming. If you don't kill the wamachine you can have a weak unit like swarms hit it (although I wish it was 1+ instead of 2+) and move your stalkers to more important targets.

White_13oy
15-04-2011, 16:07
Is anyone else thinking that Settras Herald and a TK with the death mask is a deadly combo for a unit? I still think Khalida doesn't belong in a list anymore, she's way too expensive for just giving bowmen 4+ and poison. I'd rather spend points on someone who is going to actually do something.

Asymmetric
15-04-2011, 16:18
Is anyone else thinking that Settras Herald and a TK with the death mask is a deadly combo for a unit?

I do. Hell you could even give someone the helm of discord as well to force even more leadership test's on top of terror tests, 3D6 and discard the lowest fear tests and break tests, all without any re-rolls or the generals leadership.

Skyros
15-04-2011, 16:36
If I can use a TK king with death mask to make those absurd LD10 blocks of skaven slaves flee in terror I am going to start a new TK army immediately.

jtrowell
15-04-2011, 16:45
Some people are saying that the stalker gaze attack doesn't work on warmachines.

I don't agree as I think that you're supposed to use the crew Initiative, and it seems like at least someone from GW agree too :



I love the sinister look of the Sepulchral Stalkers - there's something about that impassive bronze death mask that's faintly unnerving. They're the ultimate ambush troops as well, popping up behind the enemy lines to cause mischief. Their petrifying gaze is great at killing lone characters and war machines, not to mention heavily armoured enemy units like knights - no armour save is quite nasty when you're a Chaos Knight.


Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16200033a

Esco Thomson
15-04-2011, 16:47
Some people are saying that the stalker gaze attack doesn't work on warmachines.

I don't agree as I think that you're supposed to use the crew Initiative, and it seems like at least someone from GW agree too :



Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16200033a

I think at best the jury is out on that one.

Using GW to defend a point isn't exactly a credible testimony.

Deff Mekz
15-04-2011, 16:59
@ Esco; But that would be like saying we should ignore FAQ's when trouble arises.

Esco Thomson
15-04-2011, 17:03
@ Esco; But that would be like saying we should ignore FAQ's when trouble arises.

No, that's not like that at all...

GW taking the time to specifically address somewhat "grey" areas of the rules, and placing an official document to support them is completely different than say WD battle reports, GW Website reviews, or other comments.

Deff Mekz
15-04-2011, 17:10
Sorry I missunterpreted(sp) what you meant, I thought you meant GW in general.

Esco Thomson
15-04-2011, 17:12
Sorry I missunterpreted(sp) what you meant, I thought you meant GW in general.

No worries. For the record though, I honestly see this one going just as easy either way.

It will certainly put some appeal to them if they are allowed to use the attack on War Machines.

Deff Mekz
15-04-2011, 17:26
For the record though, I honestly see this one going just as easy either way.

It will certainly put some appeal to them if they are allowed to use the attack on War Machines.

I agree completley, if they can't destroy war machines though I can't really see me taking them (although if the models are as they could as look in the pics I may just have to) as they wouldn't really have much use then. Although I wonder if you could use them as mage snipers. :angel: Is it something like 15-18 S1 hits of average ignoring armour saves? It could be quite brutal.

The_Bureaucrat
15-04-2011, 17:56
My first reaction to this unit when I heard its point cost was it was simply to damn expensive, but recently I've been paying it a little more attention due to 2 factors.

1) The entombed beneath the sands upgrade is dirt cheap on them apparently. Now normally when we think of ambushers, EBTS users, scouts, etc we think of small harassment units off warmachine hunting, wizard sniping, taking potshots at light cavalry and such. This unit is different however.

3+ necropolis knights turning up directly behind the enemy main battleline is more than a simple annoyance, it's a serious threat to the enemys fighting blocks. No unit wants to fight necropolis knights in there rear (or flanks) while also having ranks of skeletons/tombguard advancing on there front and that situation will happen an awful lot with the EBTS rules. Being able to put down a powerful combat unit where you need it is a powerful tool.

2) The necrotect special character. For those that don't know he adds frenzy and hatred to a unit and grants constructs within 12" a 6 regen save. However he also has one more ability, 1 random construct gets re-roll failed armour saves all game. With 3+ saves and rerolls necropolis knights become extremely hard to kill with low strength attacks. Use the EBTS to pick a suitable target (say... massed ranks of high elf spearmen) and then go

I'm inclined to agree with you. People also seem to underestimate that they easily benefit the most of any construct from the +1 attack spell (assuming it benefits both rider and mount).

12 s5 posioned +9 st4 (str 5 on the charge) kb = 21 st 5 attacks on charge, 3+ armor save (possibly re-rollable) and most likey 6+ regen all for around 200 points (depending on some options)*.

*(this is all based on the rumors I've seen some of this info might not be accurate)

Gonzoyola
15-04-2011, 18:23
With the change to EBtS (well the change to ICfB), i think Stalkers are actually going to be a good source of warmachine hunters for us because they wont waste a turn when they ambush on, they can actually shot at something (unlike any of the other units with EBtS) and they seem to be fairly solid W3, T4, with at least a 5+AS (not sure on exact stats) they will need more than just small arms fire to prevent them from pillaging warmachines

I really want to mount a TK or TP on a warsphinx, though i know it isnt ideal, what are ppl thinking for item load out?



a Tomb King on WarSphinx with Destroyer of eternities is seeming like my new Brass Cleaver / Chariot combo, although survivability is a big concern.

Gonzoyola
15-04-2011, 18:24
According to the TK forums, the Death Mask costs 60% of a lord's magical item allowance, it is a bit on the steep side, so I doubt you can get much protection.

Death Mask + Fencers Blades + Dragonbane Gem. In a unit with his sworn bodyguard equipped with the Armor of Destiny perhaps?

Note that it was clarified in this post that they use Unmodified WS for MwBD, So i think fencers blades are out now.

Gonzoyola
15-04-2011, 18:26
I think that Chariots will be suprisingly good Hellpit killers. Equpping them with the flaming banner will mean that they can put up to 18 S4 (S5+ if in ranks) into the hellpit before it has even struck back. The resulting wave of S4 spear attacks should definatley finish the job. If you were to use them for Abom hunting, you would have to use them in ranks for them to be at their most effective however.

IIRC Godless said that on average the chariots inflict 10 IH. So at S5, that will mean 10 hits, causing 5 wounds, almost enough to kill the Abom out right!

People are bashing scorpions as useless now but are forgetting one thing. They had it coming. They were overpowered in 7th and now they've been toned down to were they should be. Scorpions will no longer be a "one man army" unit you will need to use in conjunction with other units. Tomb Kings work best if you put the enemy in a dammed if they do, dammed if they don't situation. Take this for eg;

10 Light Horsemen and one newly risen scorpion are about to pose a threat to a warmachine. The warmachine (we'll say it is a cannon for all purposes of this post) can either target the scorpion, probally killing it, saving itself from be destroyed by the Scorp and possibly other warmachines being destroyed too. However if the player destroys the scorpion, the horsemen will simply charge the cannon instead and destroy it. Did I mention those horsemen are ranked? So your oppenent could risk being flank charged on his precious battle bus unit, therefore removing steadfast from the unit. So he may decide to go for the horsemen instead leaving the Scorp unharmed. Either way for Tomb Kings, it's a win-win situation. :D

Deff.

Edit: Really nice analysis Esco, and thanks for starting a thread.



I don't believe you negate steadfast by charging in with 2 ranks, you only negate their rank bonus dont you?

Gonzoyola
15-04-2011, 18:31
Skelliton horsemen aren't great at killing war machines, only two cavalry sized models may attack the warmachine crew, at weapon skill 2 and strength 3 they aren't going to do much damage, but I guess it depends on the type of crew they are fighting. They can take out goblin crews, but I wouldn't try it against dwarf warmachines.

On the contrary, attacking a warmachine crew works as follows


The attacker (you) chooses 6 models to participate in the battle.

jahorin
15-04-2011, 18:37
I don't believe you negate steadfast by charging in with 2 ranks, you only negate their rank bonus dont you?

Exactly, disrupt doesn't remove steadfast. If they could errata this I think it would resolve lots of problem about 8th ed. but that's a whole other debate.

Deff Mekz
15-04-2011, 18:43
Ah I see sorry, I haven't really played much 8th ed so I'm a bit rusty on some of the rules, that will soon change though since I'am building a new TK army.

Gonzoyola
15-04-2011, 18:46
Il ask here as well, is there a good place to reference points costs of all of the new units? I would like to start theorycrafting my lists

Marshal Augustine
15-04-2011, 18:47
The debate is steadfast with just one rank... but thats another story.

I am really liking what I have read so far. I counted up my 2200pt Fantasy army to find that in the new book it comes to 1200pts. So, doubling the size of my skeleton units and adding a few more units here and there! I can't wait.

The new DoE seems like a lot of fun, using the killer king and a unit of tomb guard as a hammer.

With the new spells even the skellies can be scary with KB!

EDMM
15-04-2011, 19:14
Khalida doesn't regenerate anymore? Well she's useless then.

TheKingInYellow
15-04-2011, 19:39
I don't see Khalida working in anything other that 50+ archer deathstars in gunline armies.

However, a huge archer deathstar gunline army sounds like fun!

White_13oy
15-04-2011, 19:52
Khalida doesn't have regen anymore, and why buy her when you can get Arkhan for five points less. Also you can't have the DoE king on a warsphinx. DoE is on foot only.

Spiney Norman
15-04-2011, 19:59
Items for a king, i can see Golden Death Mask of Kharnut, GW weop for some killing power and 4 plus ward save item being a very strong choice

As for a lvl 2 liche, Neferra's Scrolls of Mighty Incantations, throwing dice down on the boosted plus 1 attack spell being fun, too risky on your heiro due to high chance of miscast, but a lowly lvl 2, people wouldnt be so scared about getting doubles.

I think that King build in a chariot would be utterly sic, though it does mean my TG would be leaderless... Then again I could just replace them with a warsphynx

Its really starting to dawn on me that actually 2000pts just doesn't cut it any more, my other armies seem to work well, but I just can't seem to fit anything in a 2K TK army. I'm still slightly in shock that my King is the same cost despite having lost the ability to cast 2 spells a turn...

In all honesty I'm struggling somewhat to be inspired by the rumours I'm hearing from the book, at the moment I'm tempted to wait for TK and just keep playing with the new savage orcs I'm having so much fun with. Really what they've done with TK feels a bit make-do-ish and half-hearted.

From someone who has had a good browse through, what sort of builds are available besides sphynx spam and EBtS spam. I'm thinking combat infantry blocks, archers catapult/casket, maybe ushabti.

Ratbeast
15-04-2011, 21:00
I could not disagree more.

What roll are TG playing in a TK list? The answer had better not be to kill things, cause with only 1 attack TG will never be able to hold their own against anything truly killy, at least not by killing it back. TG are best used as a tarpit HLP+TK bunker. With that use the shields are the better choice for 2 points less, they get a 6+ regen and WS 6 to make them harder to hit.

There is no non-character 20mm infantry in the TK list that should ever be taken with the intent to cause wounds. They are all less efficient than other armies options at that roll. Use them as tarpits and speed bumbs and bunkers; anything else is not wise.

Now, 40 TG with characters make a great anvil for chariots, Ushabti, a War Sphinx, etc. The only question is whether or not the TK are 3 times better at that roll than the skeletons you could have bought. I'd guess that they are, but I confess I'm not sure. One reason that TG might be the better tarpit is that they can take the undying banner, which lets them heal 1d6+1d3+3 wounds if it goes off. Now that's some raising.

Killing things is exactly what TG should do, 1 WS 5 or 6 strenght 5 attack is pretty good, and with the ability to cast magic to increase attack amounts the benefit stacks, TG can be brutal, i can see most people fielding a necrotect in there TG units, adding hatred, thus making halberds even better!!!

As for a HLP bunker, no point at all taken a HW plus shield, wont get a ward save anyways with regen :rolleyes:

Overall if your fielding TG, halberds is the way to go

Marshal Augustine
15-04-2011, 22:57
I am looking for DoE King with potion of speed, now that its not a GW that initiative can come in handy in a challenge... get lucky and you will take out the lord and their mount! Before they swing hehe

Yamabushi
16-04-2011, 03:37
How do you guys think MWBD will work against WoC with the Mark of Nurgle? Does the -1 to WS apply first or the unmodified WS boost by the King/Prince apply first?

TheKingInYellow
16-04-2011, 03:56
How do you guys think MWBD will work against WoC with the Mark of Nurgle? Does the -1 to WS apply first or the unmodified WS boost by the King/Prince apply first?

The player whose turn it is would decide the order?

friendsofrhomb
16-04-2011, 03:56
How do you guys think MWBD will work against WoC with the Mark of Nurgle? Does the -1 to WS apply first or the unmodified WS boost by the King/Prince apply first?

I'm pretty sure the MWBD rule state that it uses the UNMODIFIED Ws of the king/prince. I only had a quick look at the book in my local GW, so if I'm wrong someone please correct me

and isnt the nurgle rule -1 to hit, not -1 to ws?

friendsofrhomb
16-04-2011, 04:03
In the rumours thread a poster stated that it would be absolutely useless for anyone to use Spear skellies (they said ANY spear infantry in 8th). What is the consensus on this?
Heres my pros and cons on them vs HW+S

Pros
They look alot better than the stupid cutlasses and morning stars....

an extra rank of attacks. OK, it doesn't sound like much, but its not as bad as you think, if you throw a TK or TP in there, its an extra rank of WS5/6 attacks

Cons

They are a point more than the HW/S combo

You don't get the spear bonus on the charge( I dont see this as a problem as TKs are pretty static, so you're probably the one getting charged.)

No parry save.


It looks pretty even, and considering most ppl will be using skellies as tarpits i think most will go HW+S. I will probably go with the shields just because I can't get over how ugly the handweapons are :P

Yamabushi
16-04-2011, 04:10
I'm pretty sure the MWBD rule state that it uses the UNMODIFIED Ws of the king/prince. I only had a quick look at the book in my local GW, so if I'm wrong someone please correct me

and isnt the nurgle rule -1 to hit, not -1 to ws?

Well, according to the errata:

Change the second paragraph to A model with the Mark of
Nurgle is difficult to target. Ranged attacks that target him are
at -1 To Hit. Models that target him in close combat are at -1
WS.

This will severely impact a King / Prince led unit of TG. I'm having a test game with a WOC player later in about 2 hours time, so any help here is greatly appreciated :D

Chris_
16-04-2011, 04:16
Well, according to the errata:

Change the second paragraph to “A model with the Mark of
Nurgle is difficult to target. Ranged attacks that target him are
at -1 To Hit. Models that target him in close combat are at -1
WS.

This will severely impact a King / Prince led unit of TG. I'm having a test game with a WOC player later in about 2 hours time, so any help here is greatly appreciated :DSince I don't have access to the exact wording of the MWBD rule I can just say that the Tomb King/Prince will confer their Unmodified Weapon Skill to the unit even though the King/Prince gets -1WS to strike himself. So the unit still gets WS 5/6, but what happens when it is their turn to strike is another matter.

Yamabushi
16-04-2011, 04:20
Thanks alot Chris... we'll just go with the spirit of the game then :) Will let you all know how my 2k game pans out! I'm fielding a LHP (lvl4) as my Lord, with a TP, a LP (lvl2), a Herald and a necrotect.

The army consists of 6 chariots with the banner of swiftness, an archer bunker, a warsphinx and 40 TG (hw/s) with the BOTUL

sulla
16-04-2011, 05:53
No skelletal steed for characters? Not for any of them?Of course not. Tomb Nobility ride chariots; the Limo of the dunes! :D

White_13oy
16-04-2011, 07:22
I just realized something, the Banner of the Hidden dead states a unit of chariots, warriors, or horseman worth 150pts or less can be entombed beneath the sand, but the minimum points for a chariot unit is 165. So... how does that work?

Chris_
16-04-2011, 07:26
I just realized something, the Banner of the Hidden dead states a unit of chariots, warriors, or horseman worth 150pts or less can be entombed beneath the sand, but the minimum points for a chariot unit is 165. So... how does that work?It doesn't... Obviously they missed that :rolleyes:

White_13oy
16-04-2011, 07:31
Too bad it is 12:30AM here, otherwise I would double check everything to make sure I didn't miss anything, but I'm pretty sure that my facts are correct. If anyone from another time zone can check for me that way I don't go crazy waiting for my FLGS to open at 11:30.

Citadel97501
16-04-2011, 07:39
I have been thinking that a pretty solid list for the new book would be as follows, subject to point issues of course. This list I can see having severe issues with WOC, however.

Tomb King, with ASF sword, Armor of destiny,
High Liche Priest, level 4, Lore of Nehekhara, 4+ ward save,
Liche Priest, level 2, Lore of Nehekhara, Cloak of Dunes
33 x Tomb Guard Unit (High Priest & TK, 7 wide, 5 deep)
3 x 30 x Skeleton Archers or Warriors (5 wide, 6 deep, Archers are 10 by 3)
3 x 6 x Ashtabi with Great Bows (3 wide, 2 deep)
3 x 6 x Chariots, Banner of Swiftness (a good benefit to this unit.)
2 x 3 x Carrion
Casket of Souls
Hierotitan

EdFireborn
16-04-2011, 09:46
the chariots alone are going to cost 1100+

not sure about carrions, haven't noticed them getting a price drop, and swarms/stalkers/knights are looking pretty good for a similar roe.

the general consensus 'round here is that Ushabti with bows aren't worth it. I think they have function but the low number of shots could be an issue. They don't penetrate ranks (they are just a long bow with str 6) and the other options (extra hand weapon & great weapon) are just more sexy against hordes and large targets respectively.

Another liche (level 1 light) would be a great idea, especially considering you have both a casket and a heirotitan (if thats the magic one) as you'll be gettin +d3 to your casting rolls (to every priest within 12" from the titan) and +d3 power dice in the pool.

Also, do the tomb guard have halberds? or hand weapon & shield?

Nocculum
16-04-2011, 09:48
They're better against hordes and large targets in general, sure, but getting two turns of shooting off before you get over the board, when there's no guarantee the Ushabti will ever reach their intended targets otherwise...that's worth the flexibility if you ask me.

EdFireborn
16-04-2011, 09:53
While you do have the always hitting on a 5+ rule. it means a unit of 6 is only going to hit twice per turn. if you use the multiple shots spell. four times a turn.

even with the strength 6, it will have little effect unless its used against small units such as knights, light cavalry or large targets.

I'm not saying their useless, but with the cost of upgrading them, I would rather great weapons or extra handweapons.

Deff Mekz
16-04-2011, 10:07
Also, do the tomb guard have halberds? or hand weapon & shield?

They come with HW/Shield, but you can upgrade them with halberds.

White_13oy
16-04-2011, 15:20
Just remember if you give them bows they lose their GW, so they're only hitting at S4.

Deff Mekz
16-04-2011, 15:59
Rules Summary;

Nehekharan Undead
-Unstable
-Unbreakable
-May NEVER march.
-The only charge reaction Tomb Kings may ever choose is; "Hold".
Nehekharan lore:
The restless dead is the lore attribute. D3 + 1 wounds if augment spell is successfully caste on friendly Nehekharan undead target unit.

Entombed Beneath The Sands
Roll each turn for each unit that is EBTS. On a 3+ it arrives, place a marker, and roll scatter dice to see where it comes up. (Hit equals comes up at exact location) The unit may not charge when it comes up.
Unit comes up in the remaining moves phase.
Khsar's incantation of the desert wind (signature spell); Augment Cast on 8+. all unengaged friendly nehekharan undead units within 12" may make a single move as if in the remaining moves sub-phase (cannot charge). all non engaged friendlies can be instead targeted within 24" for a casting value of 16+. Any unit can only be effected by the desert wind once per turn.(undead construct units can only recover 1 wound per turn)

1. DJaf's Incantation of Cursed Blades; 7+. Augment, range 12". Until the start of your next magic phase close combat attacks gain killing blow or heroic killing blow special rule. If the unit already has killing blow or herioc killing blow special abilty, it will work on a 'To wound' roll of 5 or 6+ while this spell is in play. can increase range to 24" instead on a casting value of 10+
2. Neru's Incantation of Protection; 9+. Augment range 12", until start of caster's next magic phase.
5+ ward save on a single friendly target unit. all friendly units within 12" can be targeted instead for 18+
3. Ptra's Incantation of righteous smiting; 9+. Augment range 12" until start of caster's next magic phase. Target unit gains 1 attack (mounts, riders, models crewing chariots, monsters and war machines). If armed with a bow or great bow then get multiple shot (2) special rule. All friendly Nehekharan undead units can be targeted instead within 24" for 18+.
4. Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance; hex range 18" 10+. Until start of caster's next magic phase target unit has its movement reduced by D3 to min of 1 & all terrain is treated as dangerous terrain if unit moves. range can be extended to 36" for a casting value of 13+. Until start of next magic phase.
5. Usekhp's Incantation of Desiccation; 11+ hex range 24". target unit suffers -1 strength, -1 toughness (to min of 1) Until start of caster's next magic phase. Can instead choose to reduce by D3 (min of 1) for a casting value of 22+
6. Sakmet's Incantaion of the Skullstorm; Remains in play. magical vortex 15+. small template is placed on the board and a direction is nominated. artillery dice is rolled and the number is multiplied by wizard level = amount template is moved in stated direction. Every model passed over or under the template suffers a single strength 4 hit. misfire = place template over caster and scatter by wizards level in random direction. use large round template for a casting value 25+. on subsequent turns, vortex moves randomly equal to role of artillery dice. if misfire, vortex dissipates instantly.


Magic Items
Destroyer of Entities - +2S, heroic killing blow, sweep attack auto-hits all models in BTB (only 1 hit)
Blade of Antarhak - each wound caused regains a wound in unit or him; if full, he gains regeneration
Cloak of Dunes - Gives user fly, if character flies over enemy unit they suffer 2D6 S2 hits, can be used repeatedly, and hit every unit flown over each turn.
Golden Death Mask - causes terror; enemy unit within 6" cannot use General's Ld
Scrolls of Mighty Incantation - One use; gain dice to use on this spell equal to caster level; these are not power dice.
Enkhil's kanopi - bound level 3; dispel all Remains in Play spells on a 2+ each; gain D3 power dice for each successfully removed
Standard of the Undying Legion - bound level 5 - augment that regens D6 +2 skellies (so also regens D3+1 due to lore)
Banner of The Hidden Dead - pick one unit under 150 points; it gains entombed beneath the sands, if the marker is placed within 12" of the banner, may reroll scatter and artillery dice.


Lords/Heroes

Tomb King/Tomb Prince
May ride a chariot or Khermian Warsphinx.
The Curse: Killer of Tomb King suffers D6 S5 wounds, Tomb Prince is D6 S4. All units involved in his death suffer.
"My Will Be Done:" King/Prince gives his unmodified WS to a unit he has joined, whether on foot, mounted, etc. The bonus is lost if the King/Prince leaves the unit. This doesn't affect mounts.
-And the tomb kings rode to war- If the Tomb King's/Prince's chariot is destroyed they can remain in the unit, but if they leave they cannot rejoin.
-Can not take a skeleton horse as a mount, but can take a chariot.

Heirophant/Liche Priest-Highest level Liche Priest is the Heirophant.
-Army must include at least 1 priest.
-High Liche Priest maybe upgraded to Lv4 from Lv3
-Liche Priest maybe upgraded to Lv2 from Lv1
-Heirophant must take the Nehekharan lore
-Any other wziards can take either the Light, Death or Nek lores.
-Heirophant gives unit he's in 6+ Regen
-Can take a skeletal steed. (No chariot)

Necrotect (Hero)
-Dirt Cheap
-Gives unit he's in hatred.
-Flammable - has LA and 2HW base
-Gives constructs within 12" Regen.(6+).

SC Nectrotect
-Same as above
-Execpt gives unit frenzy

Khalida (Spec. Lord)
-She gives BS3 and poision attacks to any unit of Skeleton Archers she joins.
-She has I9 and ASF.

Settra the Imperishable (Spec. Lord)
Settra is WS7
-His MWBD is extended to a 6" bubble instead of only his unit.

Arkhan The Black (Spec. Lord)
-LV5 Wizard
-Can be Heirophant
-Uses Lore of Death

Grand Hierophant Khatep (Spec. Lord)
-Uses Lore of Nek- Loremaster

Ramhotep the Visionary (Spec. Hero)

Prince Apophas (Spec. Hero)
-A prince made of Scarabs

The Herald Nekaph (Spec. Hero)
-Has "The Flail of Skulls magic weapon from the old book.

Tomb Herald (Hero)
-May carry a Battle Standard. (Can be a Magic Standard)
-All heralds are oathed to a single king/prince; When the Prince/King takes a wound, on a 2+ the Herald suffers the wound instead (only once per round of combat). This does not work in challenges.

Core

Skeleton Warriors
-Come w/ HW and Shield
-Base cost= Half of VC skellies base cost.
-May take LA, Spears, and FC.

Skeleton Archers
-Cost 2 points more than normal skeletons.
-Can take a FC and LA.

Skeleton Horsemen
-Can take a FC and LA.
-Have the Vanguard Spec. Rule.
-4 points cheaper

Skeleton Horse Archers
-Fast Cav, Vanguard, Scout
-Can take a FC, no LA.

Skeleton Chariots
-Can take a FC.
-15pts more expensive, more impact hits, no longer fast cav.
-Chariot Legions; 3 to a rank, Inflicft D6 Str4 impact hits per Chariot in the front rank that is in base contact at the start of combat on the turn they charge. For each additional full rank of chariots +1 Str to Impact hits (For eg; Base Str4, so 2 full ranks would Str5)

additional full rank adds +1Str to the impact hits. Crew in second rank may make support attacks, but horses cannot.
-One unit can take a magic banner up to 25pts.

Special

Ushabti
-Can take a FC, AHW, GW or Great Bows (Str6, may Volley fire)
-Base strength now Str 4, need GW to back back to Str 6.
-Now significantly cheaper.

Tomb Scorpions
-Same cost as old book, -1 Wound

Tomb Swarms
-Take in unit from 2+ - Max 10 Swarms
-A few points cheaper

Tomb Guard
-Come with HW/Shield
-No magical attacks anymore, they gained killing blow instead.
-May be upgraded to have a FC and Halberds.
-Can have a Magic Banner of up to 25pts.

Sephurcal Stalkers
-Transmogrifying gaze; The unit can target any model/unit within 8". -The model suffers 1 artillery dice worth for each stalker in the unit, S1, roll vs Initiative not toughness(always iniative), no armor save.
-Come with halberds.
-Have Entombed Beneath The Sands

Carrion
- Same as now, but +1 Attack and +1Str

Necropolis Knights
-Snakes have poisioned attacks.
-3+ Save overall.
-Riders Have Killing Blow
-Can be upgraded to have Entombed Beneath The Sands
-Can have a FC group.

Warsphinx -
-Can replace normal attacks for one special Thundercrush attack thundercrush works against infantry, warbeasts, and swarms.;
-Thundercrush Place a small blast template over unit resolve hits like a stonethrower. Roll to hit using WS. Could kill up to 21 models, hordes beware!
-Can be a mount for a Tomb King/Prince
-Ridden by 4 Tomb Guard w/Spears
-Can have a flaming breath weapon
-Can have poisioned attacks

Rare

Casket of Souls
-T10, 3 wounds,
-"Light of Death"-Bound spell- level 5, 48", unit takes Ld test on 3D6, suffers wounds equal to the difference, no armor save; on a 3+ bounces to next unit within 6". This continues, until either you roll a 1-2 or there are no other units in range. Units can only be hit once per turn.
-Gives +D3 Power Dice each turn
-No longer has a attached Liche Priest "crewing" it.
- When the Casket dies, all friends and enemies within 12" suffer D6 S6 hits

Necrolith Colossus (Bone Giant)
-Still has unstoppable assault.
-Unstoppable assault: for every wound that goes unsaved, gets an extra attack; these extra attacks can produce yet more extra attacks, etc.
-Can take a Great Bow, AHW or GW.

Hierotitan - (Bone giant Liche priest)
-Can cast has Shem's Burning Gaze (light) and Spirit Leech (death) as bound spells. - Power level 5.
-Gives +D3 to score to any friendly wizard trying to cast within 12".


Screaming Skull Catapult
-Magical flaming attacks, causes panic if it causes a single wound.
-2x Shot spell does not work on the catapult.

Necrosphinx
-May substitute one of it's attacks for one single S10 Heroic Killing Blow attack. (Like the Archranok Spider's venom surge)
-Can take Poisioned attacks

Done! Please tell me if I've missed anything, however it might be a few minutes at least before I add it, I'm a bit shattered after that.

Anyways, enjoy everyone, I'll be in my tomb. ;)

Citadel97501
16-04-2011, 16:20
I doubt its worth it, but what about the Fencer's Blades on a Tomb Prince, or Tomb King? Giving WS 10, to the unit could be interesting?

Deff Mekz
16-04-2011, 16:24
Sadly that doesn't work, the King/Prince gives the Skeletons his unmodified WS, so no WS 10 Skellies I'm afraid.

Yamabushi
16-04-2011, 16:46
Can I get some confirmation on the points value of the Magic Banner that the TG can take? I've been seeing 50 points on some places and 25 on others.

On the topic of tactics, I just had a 2k game with WOC, some thoughts:

a) A large unit of Tomb Guard is very, very scary, especially with Hatred, WS5 and boosted with the blessings of Ptra and Djaf.
b) Chariots are very killy now, I impacted a Warshrine off the board in a single charge.
c) Magic is a blast! Having some range on your buff spells really do help! The AOE effects are spectacular, covering my entire army (I keep them relatively compact) at once. The problem is that when your troops pursue or overrun away from home base, and the Priests can't keep up.
d) Warsphinx destroyed 15 Chaos Warriors (Frenzy Banner, Halberd, Mark of Tzeentch) in a single turn. Still needs more testing, but with T8 and Neru watching over it, it kicks ass.

Now, I've had this crazy idea of fielding an immense unit of chariots, chuck some killy characters in it, and shadow it with Priests on steeds. The rest of the Special quota goes to ICFB units. Sure terrain will screw me over, but I WANT to see the reaction of my opponent when a unit of chariots as deep as your deployment zone, and 1/4 as wide gets put on the table :D :D :D

Other places suggest multiple 10 man Archer units, since a single casting of the boosted Smiting will probably cover all your army.

White_13oy
16-04-2011, 16:47
Deff Mekz, Carrion also gain a S, so they're are now S4 T4, also when the casket dies, it hits everyone, friend and foe.

Deff Mekz
16-04-2011, 17:14
Thanks mate I'll add that to the one in the rumour thread and then copy/paste the pile of new changes that needed to be added to this one too.

TheKingInYellow
16-04-2011, 17:20
I'm thinking EBTS units are now to be used as insta-flankers and Carrion and Light Cav are the best warmachine hunters.

Maybe even the Necrosphinx if there are no other obvious targets, like solo Disc Tzeentch Sorcerers.

Deff Mekz
16-04-2011, 17:24
I'm thinking EBTS units are now to be used as insta-flankers and Carrion and Light Cav are the best warmachine hunters.

Don't forget mage snipers! (maybe even BSB snipers) LV4 wizards beware, the sepurchal stalkers are coming to town!

Skyros
16-04-2011, 17:38
It sounds like with the hiero titan and casket the tomb kings will have some ways to boost thei r magic phase, which is good news, I think. Going from all bound spells to just the winds of magic really changes the reliability of their magic phase.

teh unforgiven
16-04-2011, 18:39
My first post yeay:)

Maybe big (30+) unit of spear skeletons with prince and necrotect and some TG with TK and maybe necrotect will form solid battle lines, supported with some priests.
Chariots and sphinx for flanks and some EBTS units....*cough* necropolis knights*cough*
Just my plan...
I was thinking of playing game with new TK but I dont have the book, so if anyone can PM me point costs of units and magick items... I will be one happy mummy undead thingy
I have: 42 skeletons all kind of weapons, 3 chariots, 8horseman, 6 TG(need more), SSC, 2 priests, BG or colossus and one normal TK + Settra... Oh and 3 ushabti
And im planning to buy: 2 sphinx, box of TG + bo of snake surfers
So any other ideas for models like that?
Thanks in advance

-unforgiven-

Ps. English is not my first language but hope you can understand me

GodlessM
16-04-2011, 18:47
Can we get back to why on earth people would pay 300pts for 6 S6 shot a turn, that will do paltry damage to most units, when for the same points that unit can be tearing it up with 18 S6 attacks in combat that will do a lot of damage, as well as 3 S4 stomps?

Nocculum
16-04-2011, 18:54
24 STR6 + 18 STR4 + 3STR4 shots...

18 STR6 + 3 STR4...

Unless I'm being retarded and MInfantry can't fire in two ranks like normal, the above line is how much damage output the Ushabti should have in the first two turns, and in the first round of their first combat...compared to the bottom, which only benefits against T4, or anything with a 4+ save...which, let's face it, since 8th edition, is a vastly reduced number of units.

I'm game for the top line myself (though I'll be using additional hw/gw as I need something to take on ogres :p).

GodlessM
16-04-2011, 20:57
Sorry but where are you getting 24 shots over two turns from? 6 guys shoot 6 shots, over two turns that is 12.

Furthermore, how many attacks/shots they make isn't damage output. They have to hit and then to wound first; that is the damage output. On top of that, you've based it on a completely baseless formula with no perameters set and not taking into consideration any of the variables; against what army is this you are facing? Do they have scouts? Do they have Vanguards? Are they coming toward you or are they standing back and waiting for you? It should also be taken into account that due to their small size Ushabti should ideally be fighting elite troops, not simple low save/toughness rank and file, making the higher strength more important.

Also I'm wondering how 8th edition suddenly reduced the amount of T4 units (mainly because it did no such thing).

And you can't use XHW/GW along with the bows, you can only take one weapon option.

Nocculum
16-04-2011, 20:59
Multiple shot spell is hardly an excessive input to the ushabti to balance that out.

GodlessM
16-04-2011, 21:39
Who says you will even have access to the spell every game? If you do who says you will get it in turn 1 precisely? If you are adding in that spell for one turn of your choosing then I can easily add it to the second result also for an extra 3A. This is just not how theoryhammer works.

Also, as I have said before, arguing something is better if you get a spell off isn't avery solid way of making it out to be better, since you are admitting to needing an x-factor to equal to odds.

Skaven-1989
16-04-2011, 23:27
I used to be a Tomb King player a few years back, I must admit the new models look nice, if i wasnt poor id invest in some. I'm loving their new lore as well.

I used to run a Khalida army, and had quite a lot of success with it, you have to build the army around her, so im interested to see her points cost and experimenting with her again, she cant make you shoot the catapult twice anymore, as soon as i saw that the model cap had been dropped i was thinking she'll be great then saw they'd changed smiting but ah well.

In terms of not taking a monster army I think having large numbers of skellys and archers for support will be good, i honestly cant say that giving ushabti shooting will make much difference, ive always found them quite vulnerable, i still intend to use carrions and a scoripion for war machine hunting, so ill use the new knights for flanking and supporting say a tomb guard of skelly unit but thats if i decide to take them, im quite impressed with this new list thus far

I can see myself taking a magic heavy infantry army and buffing normal skellys with KB lol
I'm a fan of the bone giant and ushabti but i dont know if i have a place for them

Hinge01
17-04-2011, 03:30
d) Warsphinx destroyed 15 Chaos Warriors (Frenzy Banner, Halberd, Mark of Tzeentch) in a single turn. Still needs more testing, but with T8 and Neru watching over it, it kicks ass.



I would call shenanigans if I was your opponent.

4 attacks from riders, 4 attacks from beast, thunder stomp equals 14 potential wounds, assuming you hit with all, rolled 6 hits with TS and managed to wound on 3s with them all (St5). Then the opponent would have to fail all his 6+/6+ saves. I guess there is a buff spell that would increase the number of attacks by a couple, but again, you are rolling perfect.

You can replace the 4 beast attacks with Thunderstrike (hitting 50% of the time btw). Not sure of max number of 25mm models under a small template, but those would be wounding on 5s and allowing a 4+/6+ save.

Did you simply win combat and run the unit down or destroy all 15?

TheKingInYellow
17-04-2011, 03:50
Yeah not sure how that could all happen in one turn...

Possible I suppose but highly unlikely.

Yamabushi
17-04-2011, 03:52
I would call shenanigans if I was your opponent.

The riders each have 2 attacks, so 8 S5 attacks from the spear armed crew (I charged his unit). Several Killing Blow hits were scored. The Thundercrush attack succeeded, and covered twelve 25mm models at S5 (we were not aware of it being S3(9) - being playing what amounted to a collection of rumors from all over the interwebs), then the Thunderstomp struck at S5 for *I think* 4~5 hits. Please let me know it the Thundercrush is 100% confirmed to function as a normal stone thrower, and that each crew has 2 attacks :) It's what we can gather anyway, as the book hasn't reach our store yet

The combat was a test fight as my opponent wanted to see how killy is the warsphinx, so we simulated a what-if in the middle of the battle, if I had charged the warsphinx into his warrior block head on.


Did you simply win combat and run the unit down or destroy all 15?

It was a block of nearly 50 warriors, I wouldn't want to go near that even with a ten foot pole :p

EdFireborn
17-04-2011, 04:41
They come with HW/Shield, but you can upgrade them with halberds.

i was referring to the list that I was critiquing, wondering if he had upgraded them, cause you would. =p

Anyways. I'll stand with my argument about Ushabti bows. They're ok, but the other options are just better.

going through light and death. Light would be a much better option in 75% of battles. You're more likely to get useful spells to help your units (timewarp anyone? =p) and the standard amount of buffing really helps the army surge. Death has good options too, don't get me wrong. I just think running light with a level 2 at least (or multiple) would be a good idea.

teh unforgiven
17-04-2011, 04:52
How about lvl 4 loremaster....khatep?
Then you can be sure that you have all nehekharan spells, but I don't know his cost or what his special wargear does. But combine him with 1 or 2 lvl1 or 2 priests with lore of light....atleast something I was thinking
And I still need some point costs to play with new TK so I will be really happy if someone can PM them for me

-unforgiven-

Citadel97501
17-04-2011, 05:53
How much more does the Casket of Souls cost now? Or is it still the same price?

I wonder how good taking both of the two lore masters would be, I think it might work in 2500 or more games? I am assuming both cost at least 300+

Odlox
17-04-2011, 06:46
TK movement spell might be one of the most powerful tools at our disposal. Not because it allow us to do something everyone else can already do, but for what it allow us to do that noone else can do.

It helps us be the ones who get the charge off. It helps us take controll of a random factor in the game that everyone is suffering from.

If you fail a charge in the movement phase, you can use the spell to back up away from the target, denying them the greater chance of charging you in their next turn and maybe preventing a flank charge or a rear charge, or get out of LOS from a warmachine.
This is ofcourse good for your chariots and other units that benefit from charging, and bad for your opponents counterparts. Its also important for overrunning/denying overrrun, but also the positioning of troops up against your enemy.

The additional combat resolution is not a great advantage, but its better you have it, then him.

So you cant use the spell to charge, but it will help you to be the one getting the charge off.

astorre
17-04-2011, 08:31
How much more does the Casket of Souls cost now? Or is it still the same price?

I wonder how good taking both of the two lore masters would be, I think it might work in 2500 or more games? I am assuming both cost at least 300+

Theres only one loremaster.

mortetvie
17-04-2011, 08:36
Someone asked about the super hierophant hero. He is 300 some odd points, a very reasonable cost for what he offers: loremaster Khemri, once per magic phase he can re-roll all of the powerdice used to cast thus canceling out or causing a IF/Miscast, and once per game he can use a scroll that forces a wizard to take a t test and if failed no more casting that turn and if failed on a 6 d3 wounds are taken.

I am leaning towards taking him and maybe 2 or 3 level 2 guys with a hierotitan so I can have lotsa cheap castings of the characteristic spell/augments. The hierotitan grants d3 to casting rolls made by liche priests within 12" so yeah. Would you guys think that is too much magic? An average roll with the casket would net something like 7-10 PD which should be enough to spam the spells, no? On top of having the undying legion in a unit, I think healing units shouldn't be a problem.

Conversely, I can see taking 2-3 light wizards to guarantee time warp for an aoe double movement spell (can chariots be boosted to m 16 or do they cap out at 10?) and get infantry to m 8/10 and then cast the desert wind spell for a pretty crazy fast army. Of course, getting the time warp off on a 25 will require like 6 dice lol but still.

jtrowell
17-04-2011, 08:51
The riders each have 2 attacks, so 8 S5 attacks from the spear armed crew (I charged his unit). Several Killing Blow hits were scored. The Thundercrush attack succeeded, and covered twelve 25mm models at S5 (we were not aware of it being S3(9) - being playing what amounted to a collection of rumors from all over the interwebs), then the Thunderstomp struck at S5 for *I think* 4~5 hits. Please let me know it the Thundercrush is 100% confirmed to function as a normal stone thrower, and that each crew has 2 attacks :) It's what we can gather anyway, as the book hasn't reach our store yet
[...]

I think that the crew members only has 1 attack each, it's the knights that get 2.

Citadel97501
17-04-2011, 09:03
Theres only one loremaster.

I could swear that Arkhan the black is a Loremaster for Death & Khatep is LM for Nehekara? But I might be wrong as I am at home away from book? I was just thinking that having both loremasters if you can afford it could be great?

Citadel97501
17-04-2011, 09:15
Conversely, I can see taking 2-3 light wizards to guarantee time warp for an aoe double movement spell (can chariots be boosted to m 16 or do they cap out at 10?) and get infantry to m 8/10 and then cast the desert wind spell for a pretty crazy fast army. Of course, getting the time warp off on a 25 will require like 6 dice lol but still.

Briora's Time Warp doubles movement allowance it doesn't change the trait so you actually do go over the normal cap of 10. Its why my lovely high elves were guaranteeing a charge on the 2nd turn. . .

That could be kind of funny, with the 2 spells however, throw in the Nehekara extra attack spell and your opponent gets multi-shot by the chariots, and gets to choose to get charged with impact hits or face ASF +2 extra attacks per crew and horse for every chariot, that could really hurt.

Assuming the same crew and a unit of 3 chariots (I don't know how support works with them yet, so I didn't say 6), thats 36 ASF attacks hitting on 4's at strength 3, vs. Empire Swordsmen thats 5 dead after armor and parries.

Odlox
17-04-2011, 10:48
Briora's Time Warp doubles movement allowance it doesn't change the trait so you actually do go over the normal cap of 10. Its why my lovely high elves were guaranteeing a charge on the 2nd turn. . .

I disagree. "The Target's Movement is doubled, and....". I would say that Movement, with capital M is reffering to the movement characteristic of the target. If it was not a capital M in there, i would agree with you. The spell does not use the word allowance either.


Assuming the same crew and a unit of 3 chariots (I don't know how support works with them yet, so I didn't say 6), thats 36 ASF attacks hitting on 4's at strength 3, vs. Empire Swordsmen thats 5 dead after armor and parries. Both crew have spears, so 18 S4, 18 S3 on the charge :) Its a very deadly combination indeed.

KimikoPT
17-04-2011, 10:50
I disagree. "The Target's Movement is doubled, and....". I would say that Movement, with capital M is reffering to the movement characteristic of the target. If it was not a capital M in there, i would agree with you. The spell does not use the word allowance either.

The words "movement allowance" are in the FAQ however.

Odlox
17-04-2011, 11:02
The words "movement allowance" are in the FAQ however.

I see, my apologies Citadel97501. I totaly agree with you now :)

Thanks for bringing this to my attention KimikoPT. This is good news for the TK army.

Korraz
17-04-2011, 11:09
Sadly that doesn't work, the King/Prince gives the Skeletons his unmodified WS, so no WS 10 Skellies I'm afraid.

Actually, it should work. As long as he carries the blades, WS10 is his unmodified WS, for all intents and purposes.

Yamabushi
17-04-2011, 11:13
Does it work like that? The blades are already modifying his WS to 10.

Deff Mekz
17-04-2011, 11:24
Actually, it should work. As long as he carries the blades, WS10 is his unmodified WS, for all intents and purposes.

Sounds like one for the FAQ I tihnk. ;) I thought a model's unmodified WS was his original WS?

Citadel97501
17-04-2011, 11:41
Does it work like that? The blades are already modifying his WS to 10.

I thought this earlier, and then I realized that with the way they FAQed unmodified leadership including Without Number, you would use the stat line in your codex. They finally mean Unmodified is Unmodified. . .

Weird I think the Mark of Nurgle for WOC, will be over written by My Will Be Done kind of odd.

Rinion
17-04-2011, 14:45
Random question!
30 Tomb Guard - Full Command, Restoration Banner
or
25 Tomb Guard - Full Command, Restoration Banner + Necrotect?
More or less equal in points for those two. (385/390 respectively)

EdFireborn
17-04-2011, 14:59
necrotect gives hatred which is incredibly useful.

even better with halberds =)

Ronin[XiC]
17-04-2011, 15:01
Don'T forget that you have to give your necrotect some sort of protection. WS4 T4 and 2wounds is not enough to survive a single round of combat :(

Yamabushi
17-04-2011, 15:02
Weird I think the Mark of Nurgle for WOC, will be over written by My Will Be Done kind of odd.

I just had this discussion with my gaming mates over this.

Say a unit of Tomb Guard (WS3) is led by a Prince, which automatically boosts them to WS5. The MoN states that all models attacking them suffer a -1 to WS. At first glance, we thought that MWBD will come into conflict with this, as the sequencing of these two special rules appear to make a difference in combat.

However, upon further dissection and much debating, we came to this conclusion which all of us agreed upon, for now, since we haven't seen the exact wording of MWBD - MWBD doesn't exclude external influences to the WS of the unit, meaning, there's no mention that MWBD will "lock" the WS of the unit, and render it unmodifiable (e.g. Arrows of Asaph). For instance, say the same unit of TG has Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma casted on them, reducing the WS by 2. The Tomb Guard will still be WS3 (WS5 -2) and not WS1 (WS3 -2); despite the Prince having his WS5 dropped to WS3 - they still use his unmodified WS as a baseline before applying any changes.

Our common consensus is to first apply the static boost of MWBD, and then apply any external influence. Perhaps this is another one for the FAQ :p

Odlox
17-04-2011, 16:27
I just had this discussion with my gaming mates over this.

Say a unit of Tomb Guard (WS3) is led by a Prince, which automatically boosts them to WS5. The MoN states that all models attacking them suffer a -1 to WS. At first glance, we thought that MWBD will come into conflict with this, as the sequencing of these two special rules appear to make a difference in combat.

However, upon further dissection and much debating, we came to this conclusion which all of us agreed upon, for now, since we haven't seen the exact wording of MWBD - MWBD doesn't exclude external influences to the WS of the unit, meaning, there's no mention that MWBD will "lock" the WS of the unit, and render it unmodifiable (e.g. Arrows of Asaph). For instance, say the same unit of TG has Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma casted on them, reducing the WS by 2. The Tomb Guard will still be WS3 (WS5 -2) and not WS1 (WS3 -2); despite the Prince having his WS5 dropped to WS3 - they still use his unmodified WS as a baseline before applying any changes.

Our common consensus is to first apply the static boost of MWBD, and then apply any external influence. Perhaps this is another one for the FAQ :p

If you look at the VC Helm of Command ruling in the FAQ, you can cast Mystifying Miasma on a unit that is using the wearers weapon skill without effect. A unit of grave guard will use WS 7 from a vampire lord, even if you cast Mystifying Miasma on the unit and they try to hit MoNurgle troops.

The MWBD even say that they use the unmodified leadersip of the character, so i think that, by the rule of consistency, a unit with a king will fight at ws 6 always. The kings ws can be reduced tho.

(unless ofcourse the wording of the rule differs much from that of the helm of command)

Falkman
17-04-2011, 18:30
I thought a model unmodified WS was his original WS?
Yeah, I agree. The swords change his natural WS of 6 into WS10, thus it's been modified.
To be honest it's a fairly moot point though, your kings/princes needs some form of protection to avoid being killed in a single round of combat, and after that a prince don't have enough allowance left to take the Fencer's blades, and on a king you're much better of with the Deathmask than WS10 anyway.

bored1
17-04-2011, 19:15
What roll are TG playing in a TK list? The answer had better not be to kill things, cause with only 1 attack TG will never be able to hold their own against anything truly killy, at least not by killing it back. TG are best used as a tarpit HLP+TK bunker. With that use the shields are the better choice for 2 points less, they get a 6+ regen and WS 6 to make them harder to hit.

There is no non-character 20mm infantry in the TK list that should ever be taken with the intent to cause wounds. They are all less efficient than other armies options at that roll. Use them as tarpits and speed bumbs and bunkers; anything else is not wise.

So, assuming my math is right... Let's say you bring a unit of 28 with a prince and necrotect. I forget the points cost for command, but that unit, with halberds, is 364 pts, and let's say 394 with command. The same unit is 338 without halberds. That's about a 16% increase in cost.

You'll get 9 attacks, hitting on 3's with a reroll, wounding on 2's against <=WS4, T3 models. This translates into 6.6666 wounds, versus 5.3333 wounds for the hw/sh. Or roughly a 24% increase in wounds. In addition, the jump from s4-5 is very meaningful, as it allows you remove the standard hw/sh save.


Is anyone else thinking that Settras Herald and a TK with the death mask is a deadly combo for a unit? I still think Khalida doesn't belong in a list anymore, she's way too expensive for just giving bowmen 4+ and poison. I'd rather spend points on someone who is going to actually do something.

Bring a unit of 60 archers. That's 360 pts. 45 shots (20,20,10 in ranks) that always hit on 4's, and with a single spell that's 90 shots. Poison means that there are and immediate 7.5 wounds. 15 wounds obviously, if you get off the spell. Then you roll to wound with 15 or 30 shots. Even against T5-10, that's another 2.5 to 5 wounds. So a total of 10 wounds or 20 wounds. That's fairly efficient, almost irrespective of the target. 20 wounds against a block is brutal. 10 wounds against a monster, monstrous inf, or monstrous cav (as well as most war beasts and other such units) is not a good time for them. I can't say that she is super efficient, but I certainly don't think she's not viable or potentially effective.



Multiple shot spell is hardly an excessive input to the ushabti to balance that out.

That's silly. Did you add the bonus attacks, or the KB spell, for the melee ushabti?


How much more does the Casket of Souls cost now? Or is it still the same price?

Dropped 30 pts IIRC (the old price was as much as 3 stalkers are now I believe)

bored1
17-04-2011, 19:27
I would call shenanigans if I was your opponent.

4 attacks from riders, 4 attacks from beast, thunder stomp equals 14 potential wounds, assuming you hit with all, rolled 6 hits with TS and managed to wound on 3’s with them all (St5). Then the opponent would have to fail all his 6+/6+ saves. I guess there is a buff spell that would increase the number of attacks by a couple, but again, you are rolling perfect.

Clearly, based on later posts, he misplayed it. But I just wanted to point out:

4 beast attacks + 4 rider attacks + 2d6 breath attacks + d6 thunderstomp = 16 s4 attacks/hits + 10 s4 attacks/hits. It's possible, just highly unlikely. Obviously with the +1 attack spell, the odds go up, though I think they go higher with the KB spell actually. Need to run the math on that.

Hinge01
17-04-2011, 20:13
Clearly, based on later posts, he misplayed it. But I just wanted to point out:

4 beast attacks + 4 rider attacks + 2d6 breath attacks + d6 thunderstomp = 16 s4 attacks/hits + 10 s4 attacks/hits. It's possible, just highly unlikely. Obviously with the +1 attack spell, the odds go up, though I think they go higher with the KB spell actually. Need to run the math on that.

Ah, forgot about the breath attack! Thanks

Citadel97501
17-04-2011, 21:23
Clearly, based on later posts, he misplayed it. But I just wanted to point out:

4 beast attacks + 4 rider attacks + 2d6 breath attacks + d6 thunderstomp = 16 s4 attacks/hits + 10 s4 attacks/hits. It's possible, just highly unlikely. Obviously with the +1 attack spell, the odds go up, though I think they go higher with the KB spell actually. Need to run the math on that.

Well since KB doesn't affect the BW, Thunderstomp, or the other special attack, I would think that the bonus attack adding 5 more attacks should help more?

Although when you think about it Speed of Light would probably be even better, hitting on 3's at initiative 10 along with the enemy needing 5's should work much better?

I experienced Speed of Light Empire Spearmen with my WOC last night and damn was that irritating.

GodlessM
17-04-2011, 21:26
I would call shenanigans if I was your opponent.

4 attacks from riders, 4 attacks from beast, thunder stomp equals 14 potential wounds, assuming you hit with all, rolled 6 hits with TS and managed to wound on 3s with them all (St5). Then the opponent would have to fail all his 6+/6+ saves. I guess there is a buff spell that would increase the number of attacks by a couple, but again, you are rolling perfect.

You can replace the 4 beast attacks with Thunderstrike (hitting 50% of the time btw). Not sure of max number of 25mm models under a small template, but those would be wounding on 5s and allowing a 4+/6+ save.

Did you simply win combat and run the unit down or destroy all 15?

And I would learn the War Sphinx rules before calling shenanigans if I were you ;)

bored1
17-04-2011, 21:33
Well since KB doesn't affect the BW, Thunderstomp, or the other special attack, I would think that the bonus attack adding 5 more attacks should help more?

I'd have to run the math, but I wonder if getting 5+ kb on those 4 attacks is a bigger net gain in kills against CW than 4 more attacks. Or 6+ kb on the sphinx vs 1 more attack.

Also, don't have my rulebook handy, but figure you can't get KB on the BW or thunderstomp. But what about the Thunderstrike attack?


And I would learn the War Sphinx rules before calling shenanigans if I were you

Smiley face or no...that seems a bit harsh for stating a relatively accurate statement. Especially considering the player admitted later in the thread that he completely misplayed the war sphinx.

GodlessM
17-04-2011, 22:06
Smiley face or no...that seems a bit harsh for stating a relatively accurate statement. Especially considering the player admitted later in the thread that he completely misplayed the war sphinx.

He said it was shenanigans when it was anything but; that's not relatively accurate. And because he corrected himself doesn't make my post moot either, it just meant I got time ninja'd by someone much cooler than I am :)

Citadel97501
17-04-2011, 22:21
Can someone send me a message or give me the price change on Tomb King/Tomb Prince?

gdsora
17-04-2011, 23:03
Can someone send me a message or give me the price change on Tomb King/Tomb Prince?

They havent changed

Hinge01
17-04-2011, 23:36
He said it was shenanigans when it was anything but; that's not relatively accurate. And because he corrected himself doesn't make my post moot either, it just meant I got time ninja'd by someone much cooler than I am :)

Really dude. Not sure where you get that. The poster admitted to playing the sphinx wrong. I may have forgotten about the optional upgrade of a breath weapon, but reading the response, I don't think he even used it.

You accuse me of not knowing the rules about the Sphinx, but I am unclear on what I have stated about the Sphinx that is incorrect.

Even using the breath weapon, killing 15 MoT Warriors is amazingly unlikely, more like 7-8. Buffs of course will increase this.

Citadel97501
17-04-2011, 23:59
Are Chariots 5 points more than the old book, I saw this posted? I saw someone had posted that 3 units, of 3x2 chariot squads would cost over 1100 points?

I would expect that to hit a little over 800 points without command, or am I incorrect?

Ratbeast
18-04-2011, 00:46
Are Chariots 5 points more than the old book, I saw this posted? I saw someone had posted that 3 units, of 3x2 chariot squads would cost over 1100 points?

I would expect that to hit a little over 800 points without command, or am I incorrect?

15 points more

Yamabushi
18-04-2011, 01:20
Really dude. Not sure where you get that. The poster admitted to playing the sphinx wrong. I may have forgotten about the optional upgrade of a breath weapon, but reading the response, I don't think he even used it.

You accuse me of not knowing the rules about the Sphinx, but I am unclear on what I have stated about the Sphinx that is incorrect.

Even using the breath weapon, killing 15 MoT Warriors is amazingly unlikely, more like 7-8. Buffs of course will increase this.

Guys, Godless, Hinge - c'mon lads, just let it slide. I don't mind being accused of "shenanigans" on an Internet forum, no hard feelings against Hinge :) Lets's discuss tactics with the new book, alright? :cool:

CaladanCid
18-04-2011, 01:52
For those of you who are planning to use blocks of TG. How are you fitting those block in a 2k army? I got a chance to check out the book and wrote down some points to figure out what I needed to preorder, and trying to come up with a good 2k army is killing me.

My planned army starts with 8 chariots (plus tp in chariot), 40 spears, 40 archers, a lhp, tomb herald. To get to 2k, I just add 6x necropolis guard and a warsphinx. That doesn't seem like a successful list to me. Is anyone else working on a good mix of core and the new shinies?

Yamabushi
18-04-2011, 02:06
This is what I fielded in my recent 2k game against WOC:

*disclaimer - I think the points value should be more or less correct, please do not flame me for any mistakes because our store doesn't have a copy of the book*

Liche High Priest Level 4, Talisman of Endurance

Tomb Prince - Armor of Destiny, Flail, Shield
Herald - Armor of Silvered Steel, Flail
Necrotect - Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation
Liche Priest Level 2 - Dispel Scroll, Channeling Staff

6 Chariots, full command, Banner of Swiftness
21 Archers, musician

Warsphinx
40 Tomb Guard, full command, BOTUL

Citadel97501
18-04-2011, 02:15
How many supporting attacks do you get with Chariots? Do the crewmen get their 2 attacks, and no horse attacks? That is what i would expect, but I could be off? I am assuming it will break down to one of these options?

Option 1
Crew get all attacks, no Horses (This could matter with magic)

Option 2
Crew get 1 attack each, no horses (Basically like Cavalry)

Option 3
Crew get 2 attacks each, no horses (Doesn't take magic into account.)

Esco Thomson
18-04-2011, 02:20
How many supporting attacks do you get with Chariots? Do the crewmen get their 2 attacks, and no horse attacks? That is what i would expect, but I could be off? I am assuming it will break down to one of these options?

Option 1
Crew get all attacks, no Horses (This could matter with magic)

Option 2
Crew get 1 attack each, no horses (Basically like Cavalry)

Option 3
Crew get 2 attacks each, no horses (Doesn't take magic into account.)

What about option 12?

Chariots don't make supporting attacks.

Marshal Augustine
18-04-2011, 02:20
Played my first game with this list:
HLP vl 4 - Cloak
TP- HW, Sh
Tp- GW

LP lv 2, with Ruby Ring and scroll

55 skelies FC
20 bows Mus
20 bows Mus
10 LH

30 TG

Colossus
Casquet
SSC


So, after playing the game I have made some observations. Having the HLP and the LP both with Nekharan lore was not needed... I will be taking the Lv 2 with lore of death from now on... sometimes you just need to try and get extra dice.

The TG were awesome... but the GW prince with them was not enough killy! So i switched up to a King with DoE for killing things.

The TP with the skelly horde was (and I cant express this enough) AWESOME... making them WS 5 was amazing, they are hard to hit, and they actually hit back!... the only thing was that the prince died rather quickly and once the prince was dead... the skellies died quite soon after... so Glittering Scales, Potion of toughness, dragon gem and HW, Shield... to hope that he lives longer than usual.

The colossus died to cannon quickly.

The LH were awesome! Scouting up and taking out all the cannon out. Although I needed something else to do damage... so my new list is something like this:

HLP lv 4 Cloak
King DoE

Prince - survivable
LP lv 2- death, dispell

50 skelies FC
15 Bows mus
15 bows mus
5 LH
3 Chariots

25 TG BoUL
3 Ushabti

SSC
Casquet

Both lists are 2200pts

Anyway, I really like the way the new book works on the table! Cheers.

Yamabushi
18-04-2011, 02:27
Marshal Augustine, try out the Necrotect! WS5/6 with Hatred never felt so good ^.^

CaladanCid
18-04-2011, 02:39
Marshal- Were the 25 TG a big enough block for your TP/TK? I feel like any less than 30-40 TG will get picked apart. My plan is to stick a reasonably survivable prince in with spearmen, but for kings I'd rather have them in a chariot unit.

minionboy
18-04-2011, 03:41
What do you guys think of the Envenomed Sting on the Necrosphinx? I'm a bit torn since the poison is nice, but it means you have a chance to miss out on a HKB attack.

Also, has anyone tried playing a super magic heavy army yet? It seems between the Casket, Heirotitan and bountiful casters, you could have some very effective magic phases.

Citadel97501
18-04-2011, 03:44
What about option 12?

Chariots don't make supporting attacks.

DOH, sorry forgot to check the main book, I haven't seen a ranked up chariot yet, so it was all theory hammer. However since you seem to have read them, I have 3 TK chariot questions for you?

Did their weapons change?
Did the crew get a stat change like stated on the rumors?

I am working on the math hammer, so I can figure out which spells have the most benefit? I am starting to really respect the Lore of Lights augments, as I hardly paid attention to it since, I play High Elves and WOC?

gdsora
18-04-2011, 04:02
What do you guys think of the Envenomed Sting on the Necrosphinx? I'm a bit torn since the poison is nice, but it means you have a chance to miss out on a HKB attack.

Also, has anyone tried playing a super magic heavy army yet? It seems between the Casket, Heirotitan and bountiful casters, you could have some very effective magic phases.

The HBK
is a special attack (decapitating strike)
that is separate from the poisoned ones.

its resolved at Str 10

The other attacks are all just Str 5 KB, with the applicable poison

minionboy
18-04-2011, 04:38
The HBK
is a special attack (decapitating strike)
that is separate from the poisoned ones.

its resolved at Str 10

The other attacks are all just Str 5 KB, with the applicable poison

I'm sorry, but I don't see where it says that in the rules.

All Envenomed Sting says is "All attacks made by a model with this upgrade have the Poisoned Attacks special rule. This does not affect the Attacks made by the crew, mounted characters (if any are present), Thundercrush Attacks or Thunderstomps."

Similarly, the rules for Decapitating Strike don't say that it is not poisoned if the model makes poised attacks, "Before rolling To Hit, nominate one of the Necrosphinx's Attacks to be made with the Decapitating Strike ability, and roll it seperately. This special attack strikes at Strength 10 and has the Heroic Killing Blow special rule."

It appears that like anything else with Poisoned and Killing Blow.

gdsora
18-04-2011, 05:14
I'm sorry, but I don't see where it says that in the rules.

All Envenomed Sting says is "All attacks made by a model with this upgrade have the Poisoned Attacks special rule. This does not affect the Attacks made by the crew, mounted characters (if any are present), Thundercrush Attacks or Thunderstomps."

Similarly, the rules for Decapitating Strike don't say that it is not poisoned if the model makes poised attacks, "Before rolling To Hit, nominate one of the Necrosphinx's Attacks to be made with the Decapitating Strike ability, and roll it seperately. This special attack strikes at Strength 10 and has the Heroic Killing Blow special rule."

It appears that like anything else with Poisoned and Killing Blow.


Really, I could've sworn I had read otherwise
Probably My mistake then, but if that is correct I will bet they will FAQ it

Cause otherwise
I can for see, someone getting poison, and then ruining their HKB strikes...which seems counter productive

astorre
18-04-2011, 10:13
I like the Necrosphinx, but honestly I don't think I would use one. If you give the Warsphinx poisoned attacks & fiery breath he is pretty much just as good at killing monsters, and he is more versatile. Sure he doesn't have KB but the crew does. Seems a better investment than just hoping your one Decapitating Strike attack hits and you roll a 6 to wound. I dont think GW thought that one out throughly, they probably should have just made Decapitating Strike an upgrade like Fiery Breath, because from a strategic standpoint there is no reason to take a Necrosphinx.

Some other things I've been thinking about sense I saw the book....
I hear a lot of negative things being said about Necropolis Knights but I think they will be amazing & I cant wait to use a unit in battle. I am trying out taking a unit of 3 with Entombed Beneath the Sands. Around turn 2 or 3 after my Scorpion has cleared out the cannons they will pop up behind enemy lines, nobody wants that behind them.
I have settled on running my Tomb Guard with halberds. It seems like an expensive option and so I was against it at first but I think that the S5 will make a huge difference. I think the Banner of the Undying Legion is a must have option on this unit, as T4 Light Armour is pretty weak. I will not be running a Tomb King or Prince, nor a Tomb Herald. Just a Necrotect.
Casket of Souls seems dirt cheap for all it does.
What do you guys think of Screaming Skull Catapults? I am struggling to find the points for them....

KimikoPT
18-04-2011, 10:21
But the Necrosphinx flies, its better to evade those cannons and so...
I would like to see some opinions on Warsphinx VS Necrosphinx...

Ronin[XiC]
18-04-2011, 10:57
warsphinx vs infantery
necrosphinx against monsters and other stuff.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.. exactly the way it SHOULD be

Corvus Corone
18-04-2011, 11:27
I can't seem to find on the summary page or elsewhere; just how good is the warsphinx breath weapon? Skellipoints? Thanks

Odlox
18-04-2011, 11:27
I just thought of a use for the Banner of The Hidden Dead. Hide a casket of souls in the sands! Use it to block movement/charges and mess up his battleline. If he wants to get rid of it, he will suffer the D6 SD6 hits on all his units within 12". Its not a uber combo or anyting, but it sure is going to be a fun setup.

Also, you can place it next to his stone throwers so they cant shoot at it, and he'll have to dedicate something to remove it. Anyone know if the casket can charge? Is it a Warmachine?

However, i cant find the point cost of the Banner of The Hidden Dead anywhere. Anyone know how many skellies its worth?

Edit:

I can't seem to find on the summary page or elsewhere; just how good is the warsphinx breath weapon? Skellipoints? Thanks

5 skellies :)

KimikoPT
18-04-2011, 11:35
Odlox, i think banner is only for core units.

astorre
18-04-2011, 11:49
;5471277']warsphinx vs infantery
necrosphinx against monsters and other stuff.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.. exactly the way it SHOULD be

I dont know how it SHOULD be because I didnt write the book... but this is a tactics thread & tactically the Warsphinx is a better buy than the Necrosphinx every time. I know you could come up with some scenario like "well if I get this spell off then blah blah blah". But thats not dependable, so lets look at both Sphinxes without magic support (because magic support is so unreliable).
Ok the Necrosphinx is for hunting monsters. Why? Because he has ONE HKB attack? Yes it will be exciting when you HKB a Hell Pit one day, but it will only be exciting because it probably won't happen again for a while. Sure, you could take poison on him, but as others were already discussing you could ruin your chances of getting off that HKB. Sure, he flies. But he can't march (so can only fly 10"). And I don't know where you think he would be flying to that is out of range for cannons, cannons have 60" range.
The Warsphinx with all upgrades is 20pts more than the Necrosphinx with all upgrades. What does he get for this? Thundercrush. A S4 flaming breath weapon attack. 4 crew members with killing blow (which also means he has more attacks). Poison makes him just as effective at killing monsters as the Necrosphinx, Decapitating Strike aside.
In an all comers type list, the Warsphinx wins out hands down. Matter fact the only "monster" I can think of that the Necrosphinx would be better at fighting is a Steam Tank (yes I know it's really a chariot).

astorre
18-04-2011, 11:53
Odlox, i think banner is only for core units.

I think you're right Kimiko, however if not then I could see the potential in hiding a Casket away. Odlox, good thinking outside the box!
I've been thinking of the advantages & disadvantages (mainly point costs) of taking a Herald with the Flaming banner or the Armour Piercing banner & just sticking him in an Archer unit.

Bac5665
18-04-2011, 11:54
But the Necrosphinx flies, its better to evade those cannons and so...
I would like to see some opinions on Warsphinx VS Necrosphinx...

I keep asking people, but no one tells me; what the heck does flying have to do with cannon evasion? I've not played a game of 8E where a unit could be hidden from a cannon at all, unless it didn't want to participate in the game at all. Flying shouldn't effect your ability to stand there, and moving is counterproductive.

oldWitheredCorpse
18-04-2011, 12:09
I dont know how it SHOULD be because I didnt write the book... but this is a tactics thread & tactically the Warsphinx is a better buy than the Necrosphinx every time. I know you could come up with some scenario like "well if I get this spell off then blah blah blah". But thats not dependable, so lets look at both Sphinxes without magic support (because magic support is so unreliable).
Ok the Necrosphinx is for hunting monsters. Why? Because he has ONE HKB attack? Yes it will be exciting when you HKB a Hell Pit one day, but it will only be exciting because it probably won't happen again for a while. Sure, you could take poison on him, but as others were already discussing you could ruin your chances of getting off that HKB. Sure, he flies. But he can't march (so can only fly 10"). And I don't know where you think he would be flying to that is out of range for cannons, cannons have 60" range.
The Warsphinx with all upgrades is 20pts more than the Necrosphinx with all upgrades. What does he get for this? Thundercrush. A S4 flaming breath weapon attack. 4 crew members with killing blow (which also means he has more attacks). Poison makes him just as effective at killing monsters as the Necrosphinx, Decapitating Strike aside.
In an all comers type list, the Warsphinx wins out hands down. Matter fact the only "monster" I can think of that the Necrosphinx would be better at fighting is a Steam Tank (yes I know it's really a chariot).

I agree the Warsphinx is a lot more dangerous in close combat. But I think you dismiss the better mobility of the Necrosphinx a bit too easy. It can both fly over units and charge from behind units. It charges and pursuits on 3D6 (drop worst). Tactically the warsphinx should go together with infantry, while the Necrosphinx is better suited to protect your chariots from big monsters.

There is also the psychological deterrent of HKB: your opponent might fear it too much for his/her own good.

Marshal Augustine
18-04-2011, 12:23
the 25 TG are not bad... I ran him in 30 and that seemed like a big enough unit, the MWBD really helps the unit out a lot!

I want to try the necrotec... but I dont know what to drop... too many points on characters!

Odlox
18-04-2011, 12:31
I keep asking people, but no one tells me; what the heck does flying have to do with cannon evasion? I've not played a game of 8E where a unit could be hidden from a cannon at all, unless it didn't want to participate in the game at all. Flying shouldn't effect your ability to stand there, and moving is counterproductive.

Well, you see, a cannon can not, ever, take a shot where he risk hitting his own troops. Its against the rules. So with flying, you can get into a position where the cannon cant shoot at it, out of risk of hitting his own troops. For eksample right in front of an enemy that is between the flyer and the cannon, or right behind a unit, between the unit and the cannon. It can be argued that the unit "will just move" before the shooting phase, but if you are anyting of a general, you will make sure to threaten the unit in another and more sinister way if it moves. Also, blocks of infantry dont move far if you can block their forward advance.

And a unit with flying gets into combat faster. M10 + swiftstride and it can "jump" over enemy units.

I think this is one of the good things with T8, grapeshot will barely scratch it.


Odlox, i think banner is only for core units.

Rumour had it that its no longer restricted to core units. However, i see now that Esco Thomson's summary has the banner restricted to infantry/cavalry/chariots... How you are going to fit a unit of chariots in it, i have no idea tho.

Corvus Corone
18-04-2011, 12:37
Thanks odlox and astorre for answering my breath weapon questions.

Asymmetric
18-04-2011, 12:50
I'm not a fan of the necrosphinx. All the other monsters, the warsphinx, the bone giant, heirotitan, are all fairly awesome.

It has one real advantage. It flies. Whether that is enough to justifiy its self I'm not sure.

Decaptating strike just isn't enough to go monster hunting. 1 attack with 50% chance of striking most enemies and a 1 in 6 chance of pulling off a HKB. Thats simply not enough. The warsphinx with flaming breath and posion attacks is probably more reliable against enemy monsters and is much better against infantry.

So it all comes down to how much you can get out of the ability to fly.

Corvus Corone
18-04-2011, 13:46
Any idea what unit type the sepulchural stalkers are? Monstrous inf?

Chris_
18-04-2011, 13:49
Any idea what unit type the sepulchural stalkers are? Monstrous inf?Monstrous Beasts.

minionboy
18-04-2011, 14:20
Odlox, i think banner is only for core units.

Banner of the Hidden Dead works on any infantry, cavalry or chariots with the Nehekharan Undead rule that is equal to or under 150 points.

You can however use the Standard of the Undying Legion on a BSB in a unit of Ushabti to have them recover D6+2 wounds every magic phase. The restriction of 1 wound per turn is on the lore attribute, not in the Resurrecting Fallen Warriors rule.

KimikoPT
18-04-2011, 14:46
BSB on a Ushabti unit will be suicide (no Look out Sir).

GodlessM
18-04-2011, 14:53
BSB on a Ushabti unit will be suicide (no Look out Sir).

Yea I've seen a lot of people saying put BSB or Khalida in Ushabti as if everyone forgot about this.

Bac5665
18-04-2011, 15:01
Well, you see, a cannon can not, ever, take a shot where he risk hitting his own troops. Its against the rules. So with flying, you can get into a position where the cannon cant shoot at it, out of risk of hitting his own troops. For eksample right in front of an enemy that is between the flyer and the cannon, or right behind a unit, between the unit and the cannon. It can be argued that the unit "will just move" before the shooting phase, but if you are anyting of a general, you will make sure to threaten the unit in another and more sinister way if it moves. Also, blocks of infantry dont move far if you can block their forward advance.

And a unit with flying gets into combat faster. M10 + swiftstride and it can "jump" over enemy units.

I think this is one of the good things with T8, grapeshot will barely scratch it.

Sorry, but that's crazy. On turn one or two you will be shot at. And especially because you can only fly ten, you will not be able to position yourself like you suggest. Not unless your opponent is an idiot; if they have cannons, they are going to make you come to them while they shoot you, which is kinda bad for TK, and makes it impossible to use enemy units to protect you necrosphinx.

So sure, I guess flying makes it easier, but in the same sense that eating an energy bar might make it easier for you to lift a car by yourself. Its possible, it happens with adrenalin and such, but under normal circumstances, you'e just too optimistic, to put it mildly.

minionboy
18-04-2011, 16:14
BSB on a Ushabti unit will be suicide (no Look out Sir).


Yea I've seen a lot of people saying put BSB or Khalida in Ushabti as if everyone forgot about this.

Obviously you have to pick your fights, but if you're playing against an army which doesn't make use of artillery, then it's perfectly valid. Fortunately there is nothing in the rules that says you can't change your mind on which unit to deploy with. ;-)

warplock
18-04-2011, 16:30
Am I alone in thinking chariots are not worth the points? Over 160 points for T4, 5+ save, and an average of 11 strength FOUR impact hits? And that's only if they charge - if they get charged then they're worse than useless. Ditto for the second round of combat unless they're fighting Skaven slaves. For just an extra 5 skeletons worth of points you could get a S8 T6 giant who will excel at killing infantry and monsters alike and perform well in every round of combat.

bluemage
18-04-2011, 16:46
Chariots have several advantages over the giant. First of all, they're a core choice, can take a banner, have swift stride and impact hits happen before initiative attacks.

Last and most importantly of all there isn't a model for the Collosus. I know you could use the bone giant, but that lacks two of the weapon options, is metal and a horrible model.

Asymmetric
18-04-2011, 18:00
Not to mention chariots probably get the biggest benefits of any tomb kings units from the magic phase.

Obviously there rather fast with the movement spell but the biggest factor is they aren't constructs so they gain the full d3+1 wounds (which is basically a chariot per cast). The +1 attack spell effects all the models, so both crew members and the 2 mounts. And the chariots, unlike say a Collosus, gain a huge damage boost from enemy units hexed at -1T/S by Usekhp's Incantation of Desiccation.

minionboy
18-04-2011, 18:06
Not to mention chariots probably get the biggest benefits of any tomb kings units from the magic phase.

Obviously there rather fast with the movement spell but the biggest factor is they aren't constructs so they gain the full d3+1 wounds (which is basically a chariot per cast). The +1 attack spell effects all the models, so both crew members and the 2 mounts. And the chariots, unlike say a Collosus, gain a huge damage boost from enemy units hexed at -1T/S by Usekhp's Incantation of Desiccation.

+1 attack spell means the chariot does 10 attacks, add in killing blow on a unit of 3 and now you have 30 killing blow attacks. Definitely not too shabby from 165 points of models.

astorre
18-04-2011, 18:54
I agree the Warsphinx is a lot more dangerous in close combat. But I think you dismiss the better mobility of the Necrosphinx a bit too easy. It can both fly over units and charge from behind units. It charges and pursuits on 3D6 (drop worst). Tactically the warsphinx should go together with infantry, while the Necrosphinx is better suited to protect your chariots from big monsters.

There is also the psychological deterrent of HKB: your opponent might fear it too much for his/her own good.

I'll give you that, swiftstride is better. And it's cheaper (but not by much). It has it's uses, and I'm not even saying its bad (just saying the Warsphinx is better). I'm sure some people will be able to make it work for them. But I still don't think anyone can come up with a valid argument that in an all-comers list the Warsphinx is a way better option. (Without factoring in magical support).

astorre
18-04-2011, 18:56
Am I alone in thinking chariots are not worth the points? Over 160 points for T4, 5+ save, and an average of 11 strength FOUR impact hits? And that's only if they charge - if they get charged then they're worse than useless. Ditto for the second round of combat unless they're fighting Skaven slaves. For just an extra 5 skeletons worth of points you could get a S8 T6 giant who will excel at killing infantry and monsters alike and perform well in every round of combat.

I'm sure you got, say 6 Chariots right? Drop those on your flank & see if your enemy doesn't worry bout that coming at him.
On that note, even if Chariots don't get supporting attacks, you will still need 6 to break ranks. I think that justifies taking 6 over 3 or 4. Not to mention points denial.

Gonzoyola
18-04-2011, 19:03
I see so many people dropping these statements that the Warsphinx is better than the Necrosphinx. I dont get how people dont understand the concept that these two creatures fill completely different roles that that the other cant complete. The Necrosphinx cant amass the gross CR that the warsphinx can fighting infantry, but the warsphinx cant jump over that block in front of it to charge the Monstrous infantry planning to assist its unit in front of it in combat, or to divert attention away from the bulk of your battle line, or to simply manouver its self to the rear flank of enemy units for a devastating rear charge. I imagine the most terrifying combo charge will be



Warsphinx - Frontal

Chariot unit - Side

Necrosphinx Rear.


In this wonderful best case scenario, you will have a unit stuck allocating the bulk of its attacks to a weapon skill 4 T8 creature. Your chariots will be safe from a side reform, and your stacking up 3+ resolution just from positions in the combat.


Really the only difference I see between arguments here have it split into 3 ways. Best case scenarios for people in favor, worst case scenarios for people against, and mathhammer scenarios for people who have no imagination.

Asymmetric
18-04-2011, 19:24
I see so many people dropping these statements that the Warsphinx is better than the Necrosphinx. I dont get how people dont understand the concept that these two creatures fill completely different roles that that the other cant complete. The Necrosphinx cant amass the gross CR that the warsphinx can fighting infantry, but the warsphinx cant jump over that block in front of it to charge the Monstrous infantry planning to assist its unit in front of it in combat, or to divert attention away from the bulk of your battle line, or to simply manouver its self to the rear flank of enemy units for a devastating rear charge. I imagine the most terrifying combo charge will be



Warsphinx - Frontal

Chariot unit - Side

Necrosphinx Rear.


In this wonderful best case scenario, you will have a unit stuck allocating the bulk of its attacks to a weapon skill 4 T8 creature. Your chariots will be safe from a side reform, and your stacking up 3+ resolution just from positions in the combat.


Really the only difference I see between arguments here have it split into 3 ways. Best case scenarios for people in favor, worst case scenarios for people against, and mathhammer scenarios for people who have no imagination.


Maybe.

My gut feeling is I'd rather have 3 necropolis knights with entombed beneath the sands if I want a unit to perform a rear charge or serve as a distraction. They're cheaper, in special, hit harder and can probably get in that position more reliably.

For the record, I don't think the necrosphinx is actually bad per se, more that I just find other options more appealing. If your going to take one though you better get the most out of fly by using situations like this.

astorre
18-04-2011, 19:52
I see so many people dropping these statements that the Warsphinx is better than the Necrosphinx. I dont get how people dont understand the concept that these two creatures fill completely different roles that that the other cant complete. The Necrosphinx cant amass the gross CR that the warsphinx can fighting infantry, but the warsphinx cant jump over that block in front of it to charge the Monstrous infantry planning to assist its unit in front of it in combat, or to divert attention away from the bulk of your battle line, or to simply manouver its self to the rear flank of enemy units for a devastating rear charge. I imagine the most terrifying combo charge will be



Warsphinx - Frontal

Chariot unit - Side

Necrosphinx Rear.


In this wonderful best case scenario, you will have a unit stuck allocating the bulk of its attacks to a weapon skill 4 T8 creature. Your chariots will be safe from a side reform, and your stacking up 3+ resolution just from positions in the combat.


Really the only difference I see between arguments here have it split into 3 ways. Best case scenarios for people in favor, worst case scenarios for people against, and mathhammer scenarios for people who have no imagination.

Im sorry buddy but I dont think you've understood my posts, because I dont fit into any of those categories and you fit in the one for "best case scenarios".
(@Asymetric - ditto on the Knights, 3 w/EBtS is the same cost as a Necrosphinx & you get way more attacks. EBtS is probably better than flying in most situations anyways.)
What are the 2 most frightening monsters to face in the game? HPA & Hydra? What can the Necrosphinx do against them that the Warsphinx cant? Warsphinx w/ poison will get 4 attacks, then 4 from the crew, then can spit fire in their face. Necrosphinx can fly up on em, hit em 4 times, then PRAY you get off that HKB with the fifth. Like I said, the Necrosphinx ain't a bad choice. But let me repeat myself in an ALL COMERS list (meaning not tailoring to play your buddy with 4 Hydras) the Warsphinx is the better choice every time.

Sloppyjayman
18-04-2011, 19:59
Do flying creatures like the Necrosphinx have movement 10" or does flying mean 20" move (not allowed to march)?

If a flying Necrosphinx can only move 10" and not really fly over units, then doesn't that kind of suck?

bored1
18-04-2011, 20:09
Actually, the necro has a few advantages, given the nature of the TK list:

-It synergizes well with TK magic against monsters. HKB on a 5+ is a scary prospect. Admittedly, it's a total of about 16% chance of dropping a monster in one shot. But that's significantly higher than just about every option in the TK list, including the warsphinx. I think the light buffs are of similar utility for both, so that is a wash. But as a DE player, I know that I'd be careful with my hydras around stuff that potentially can drop it 1 out of 6 times in one turn. Especially as the likelihood of me doing serious damage back is fairly low.

-Poison is well and good, but 6" movement + 2d6 charge means you're going to be eating charges from lots of sources. Generally the necro, due to flying (going over and around, versus linear), has better mobility, and more control over what it can charge, and what charges it (10" + 3d6 choose 2 is far superior).

-Against infantry, clearly the warsphinx is better. But it's not like the necro is bad. It's still 5 WS4 S5/10 attacks with KB and a thunderstomp. And that is the balancing fact between a Necro and Knights.

Personally, the way I look at it is that the Necro forms a nice "combined arms" (a misuse of the term, I realize, but still) approach with other parts of the list. As a mobile monster, they can help add damage from a different vector in grinding combats. They can use mobility to engage units and pin them, or force them to expose flanks/rears. They can be a deterrant for monsters and even MI/MB/MC.

electors champion
18-04-2011, 20:26
i have one quick question (although undoubtedly will not be so quick in a definite answer) if you use van horstmans speculum against someone with the MWBD rule on, as it switches the base WS characteristic would that mean the TK unit fights with the van horst bearers WS, it hasn't been modified its still the same just being used by the van horst bearer.

astorre
18-04-2011, 20:32
Actually, the necro has a few advantages, given the nature of the TK list:

-It synergizes well with TK magic against monsters. HKB on a 5+ is a scary prospect. Admittedly, it's a total of about 16% chance of dropping a monster in one shot. But that's significantly higher than just about every option in the TK list, including the warsphinx. I think the light buffs are of similar utility for both, so that is a wash. But as a DE player, I know that I'd be careful with my hydras around stuff that potentially can drop it 1 out of 6 times in one turn. Especially as the likelihood of me doing serious damage back is fairly low.

-Poison is well and good, but 6" movement + 2d6 charge means you're going to be eating charges from lots of sources. Generally the necro, due to flying (going over and around, versus linear), has better mobility, and more control over what it can charge, and what charges it (10" + 3d6 choose 2 is far superior).

-Against infantry, clearly the warsphinx is better. But it's not like the necro is bad. It's still 5 WS4 S5/10 attacks with KB and a thunderstomp. And that is the balancing fact between a Necro and Knights.

Personally, the way I look at it is that the Necro forms a nice "combined arms" (a misuse of the term, I realize, but still) approach with other parts of the list. As a mobile monster, they can help add damage from a different vector in grinding combats. They can use mobility to engage units and pin them, or force them to expose flanks/rears. They can be a deterrant for monsters and even MI/MB/MC.

1. You can't really consider magic when comparing units. I can just as easily say let me cast Timewarp & the +1 attack spell on the Warsphinx, now it has 6 attacks w/ 12 coming from the crew.
2. HKB isn't a one in six chance of killing a Hydra outright. You have to hit with that attack first (and hope it isn't poisoned or no HKB). So first you have to roll a 3, 4, or 5 to hit. Then roll a 6 to wound. I'm not liking those odds while my XXXpt monstrosity is tied up in a combat that needs to end quickly before he gets flanked.
3. I'll give you that, the Necrosphinx is better in the movement phase. But now if were just talking about the Tomb Kings army as a whole, you can get 3 Necropolis Knights with Entombed Beneath the Sands for the same price. And I'm not understanding how you figure the Necrosphinx is better than Knights. No march 10" fly is not better than EBtS. Best case scenario, the Necrosphinx gets 4 S5 attacks, 1 S10 HKB attack, and 6 S5 Thunderstomps. The Knights get 6 S4(5 on the charge) KB attacks, 9 poisoned S5 attacks, and 3 S5 stomps. So (best case) the Necrosphinx will take out 11 RnF, while the Knights will take out 18. Not to mention a 3+AS, command options, and 9 wounds compared to 5, all for the same price.
If you want HKB in your army, might I suggest a Tomb King with the Destroyer of Eternities with a non-BSB Herald as a Sworn Bodyguard. More expensive yes, but then he gets 4 HKB attacks and can auto hit.

**edit** Took out point costs for Necrosphinx, my bad....

The_Bureaucrat
18-04-2011, 20:33
Regarding the Necro Vs War. I think they are both a fantastic buy. But it's really the breath weapon that really makes the warsphinx pull ahead. Thundercrush is hit and miss ;). Flying, killing blow, posion and HKB vs 4 kb attacks are about the same in my book but that breathweapon makes it so much better.

Regarding the much hated skellies with spears. I was thinking about it last night and I think any unit I didn't plan to have any characters in it (AKA speed bump), I would definitely consider giving them spears. Sure the extra 5 ws2 str attacks won't do much. But heres the thing any general worth his salt is going to steer his characters away from that tomb gaurd unit. Being able to surprise them with the killing blow spell is nice. Getting an extra rank of attacks with KB attacks to direct against that character is pretty damn powerful and may be worth the points. Not a surefire thing (especially since depending on the list you might not get the kb spell) but something interesting to consider.

astorre
18-04-2011, 20:39
Regarding the Necro Vs War. I think they are both a fantastic buy. But it's really the Flaming breath weapon that really makes the warsphinx pull ahead. Thundercrush is hit and miss ;). Flying, killing blow, posion and HKB vs 4 kb attacks are about the same in my book but that Flaming breathweapon makes it so much better.

Regarding the much hated skellies with spears. I was thinking about it last night and I think any unit I didn't plan to have any characters in it (AKA speed bump), I would definitely consider giving them spears. Sure the extra 5 ws2 str attacks won't do much. But heres the thing any general worth his salt is going to steer his characters away from that tomb gaurd unit. Being able to surprise them with the killing blow spell is nice. Getting an extra rank of attacks with KB attacks to direct against that character is pretty damn powerful and may be worth the points. Not a surefire thing (especially since depending on the list you might not get the kb spell) but something interesting to consider.

There you go, I helped you out with the Fiery Breath attack haha. Spitting 2D6 flaming S4 hits into a Hydra or Hell Pit Abom's face probably has a better chance of killing it than banking on that one HKB attack. (Math genius help please?)
Those are good points though, I agree with you. I wouldn't take spears myself, however I always encourage thinking outside the box!

Maoriboy007
18-04-2011, 20:40
If you roll a hit with "entombed beneath the sands" and come up directly underneath the target unit, does it count as a charge? If not the I'd be calling some fairly serious shennanigens unless the misfire table is a lot less harsh than it used to be.

astorre
18-04-2011, 20:46
If you roll a hit with "entombed beneath the sands" and come up directly underneath the target unit, does it count as a charge? If not the I'd be calling some fairly serious shennanigens unless the misfire table is a lot less harsh than it used to be.
No you place them one inch away from the unit.

@Elector's Champion - This will probably be one of the things that needs an FAQ and won't get one. I'd say unmodified means unmodified, so the unit will still fight with the Tomb King's WS. Just like when unmodified LD means you can't use the General's Inspiring Presence, that is an example of when you would use another model's stats but cant.

The_Bureaucrat
18-04-2011, 20:46
There you go, I helped you out with the Fiery Breath attack haha. Spitting 2D6 flaming S4 hits into a Hydra or Hell Pit Abom's face probably has a better chance of killing it than banking on that one HKB attack. (Math genius help please?)
Those are good points though, I agree with you. I wouldn't take spears myself, however I always encourage thinking outside the box!

Well the main reason to take spears is because they look so much cooler. I was trying to think of some tactical reason to justify it.

astorre
18-04-2011, 20:51
Well the main reason to take spears is because they look so much cooler. I was trying to think of some tactical reason to justify it.
Necessity is the mother of invention, if you need spears I'm sure you will think of a good way to use them! For me a tarpit just needs to be cheap, and you can't beat 4pts for an Immune to Psychology, Unbreakable, Fear causing unit with a parry save. 50 Skeletons w/ musician & standard bearer (no reason to use a champion unless you're putting a character in the unit) comes to 220pts, wow! With spears it would come to 270, that's getting pricey for my tastes.
(If you dont like the HW that come with the Skeletons, you can use the plastic Tomb Guard ones. As my TG are taking Halberds I'll have a few extras lying around.)

Odlox
18-04-2011, 21:23
If you roll a hit with "entombed beneath the sands" and come up directly underneath the target unit, does it count as a charge? If not the I'd be calling some fairly serious shennanigens unless the misfire table is a lot less harsh than it used to be.

You must place the unit 1" away. Yes, the miscast table is a lot nicer. 2 chances of loosing the unit, 2 chances of it being delayed, and 2 chances of it coming in at a random table edge. (or so i've heard)



i have one quick question (although undoubtedly will not be so quick in a definite answer) if you use van horstmans speculum against someone with the MWBD rule on, as it switches the base WS characteristic would that mean the TK unit fights with the van horst bearers WS, it hasn't been modified its still the same just being used by the van horst bearer.

As you say, it hasnt been modified, its just used by the bearer for van horstmanns. So the base WS of the character with mwbd is still the same, its just at another place, and is still the ws that is transfered to the unit.

Gonzoyola
18-04-2011, 21:33
Well the main reason to take spears is because they look so much cooler. I was trying to think of some tactical reason to justify it.

Not to mention, when you read the fluff in the new book, they constantly paint portraits of legions of skeleton spearmen. The Tomb Kings fought in Phalanxes with Spears, they weren't running around with morning stars / cutlasses / misc hand weapons.


People are painting broad strokes on a unit that has potential that can not be compared to any other.

The phrase that anyone who uses spears deserves to be beaten has been thrown around, but what basis do they have for that? what core unit with 5 point models has been around before that has spears, can be WS 5/6, can be basically Frenzied through Lore of Light / have Killing Blow through Lore of Nehekara.

Im on the Spearmen bus, and when the army comes out, people are going to fear the 28 WS 5 attacks with killing blow coming their way. Not to mention, the way I will probably be running my list will amount to having one Loremaster of Nehekara, and multiple Level 2s to insure that I have 2 copies of the KB spell in my army, dispel it once? try it again. Running my magic in this order will insure that I can easily 2 dice the spell, then 3 dice it with a level 2 if I find it extremely necessary.

Marshal Augustine
18-04-2011, 21:34
I also built a chariot list. And looking at it seems to me like it will benefit quite well from the new lore... as well as having to take a king with Golden Deathmask to help units to break and cause havoc.

:D

Still, only one game under my belt but so much pining!

shade3413
18-04-2011, 22:58
Although probably only a one turn synergy has anyone given much thought to death-mask toteing TK sitting his anivil unit right in the midst of enemy lines while the Casket has it's way with the enemy units unable to reroll their 3d6 LD at base LD?

GodlessM
18-04-2011, 23:03
i have one quick question (although undoubtedly will not be so quick in a definite answer) if you use van horstmans speculum against someone with the MWBD rule on, as it switches the base WS characteristic would that mean the TK unit fights with the van horst bearers WS, it hasn't been modified its still the same just being used by the van horst bearer.

Yes it does, though it is funnily still higher than the WS of our troops; unmodified as described in the FAQ does not include completely swapped out. Besides, if your TK is in a unit of TG declining the challenge is probably a better option as you then have 9 attacks back (assuming he is on the Altar like usual), or 13 in horde, and if you get a single 6 to wound with those he has a 50% chance of dying outright.


Although probably only a one turn synergy has anyone given much thought to death-mask toteing TK sitting his anivil unit right in the midst of enemy lines while the Casket has it's way with the enemy units unable to reroll their 3d6 LD at base LD?

It's a one turn synergy to have your TK killed as the Casket is highly unlikely to send all the units surrounding you packing and thus expect frontal and double flank charges on your TK bunker.

shade3413
18-04-2011, 23:40
It's a one turn synergy to have your TK killed as the Casket is highly unlikely to send all the units surrounding you packing and thus expect frontal and double flank charges on your TK bunker.

I don't think it's that simple. Obviously you wouldn't send your tomb king into a situation like that alone. Flanked with two other large blocks sort of prevent exactly what you are describing. Then considering casket only requires LOS it's easy to achieve that through the obligatory 1 inch gaps between units anyway.

I am uncertain if there is a way to achieve flight on a death-mask TK but that is another option. simply trying to find a way to justify the casket in my eyes. The death-mask nullifies two of the most reliable defenses against it's spell.

Id'git Thwompa
18-04-2011, 23:41
Well I need to toss my hat in the ring for the Necro/Warsphinx debate. I would argue that due to the large amount of monsters that have regen i think the warsphinx might be a better monster killer MOST OF THE TIME .... however i plan to take a necrosphinx for a different goal .... character killing. Your opponent is always careful to keep his lvl 4 wizard on the side of his unit opposite big monsters and anything sporting killing blow attacks. You will almost never get a warsphinx into base to base with him.

Enter our winged friend. 10 " flight move will not do much but it will get you over the unit in front of you and to the exact spot where the caster is. With 5 attacks and killing blow you will watch your opponent sweat bullets while you roll. Want added fun ? enter TK magic , your Killing Blow attacks working on a 5+ , yes please! an extra attack from the army wide (almost) bubble thank you very much you old dead bugger! Then for good measure you thunderstomp the unit add all wounds caused and add +1 for charging ... even against static combat res you should be fine , then continue to grind at the unit till help arrives.

I know this tactic isn't flawless but enemy lord level casters are worth more points then their monsters on average .... so i think they make a perfect target for one of these bad boys. ESPECIALLY if they are flying around by themself your warsphinx will never catch them ... but a simple flight move can make all the difference.

electors champion
18-04-2011, 23:44
i actually use arch lector on foot, and he's only ws4 and i stick him with greatswords so its a big difference, also put sword of anti heroes on him, but the TG seem pretty good nonetheless, would easily go toe to toe with my unit.

Marshal Augustine
19-04-2011, 00:02
Played a game on sunday, dang you Karl Franz! 4 Great cannon and about 40 White wolf deathbus later... = defeat for the TK. Although I did learn a lot:
- WS 5 skellies are fantastic... but as soon as the supporting character dies, they are horrible again...
- Too much magic, to little power dice(lv 4, lv 2, and 3 bound spells...) even with the casquet on the table I wished I had more dice. Used to not having to rely on power dice, and may I say that the winds of magic sure are fickle? Hehe.
- Killing power-- need something to do damage. And have to remember the spells... augments are -not- remain in play... grr.

So on to V2 of the list.

Tomb Kings 2200

Tomb King - Destroyer of Eternities - Mag Wep 263
General Shield - Mundane
DragonHelm - Mag Armour

High Liche Priest Level 4 - Upgrade 260
Hierophant Cloak of the Dunes - Enchanted Item

Liche Priest Level 2 - Upgrade 130
Lore of Death Dispel Scroll - Arcane

Tomb Prince Hand Weapon - Mundane 152
Shield - Mundane
Glittering Scales Armour - Mag Armour
Dragon Bane Gem - Talisman
Potion of Toughness - Enchanted Item

50 Skeleton Warriors Full Command 230

15 Bowmen Musician 100

15 Bowmen Musician 100

3 Chariots

5 Light Horse Bows

3 Ushabti

25 Tomb Guard Full Command 355
Banner of the Undying Legion

Screaming Skull Catapult

Casquet of Souls


The prince that runs with the skelly horde should live longer. The lv 2 lore of death will hopefully be useful at providing some more dice in a pinch and if I am lucky a purple sun :D. The king is there to kill things... plain and simple. The supporting units are there to harass, and the casquet can stay out of los and range and blast stuff. The catapult is there as anti hydra support... or hellpit or stank. The ushabti are good against cav. Anyway. Looking for test games... any takers?

As for options with the list... would it be worth dropping some archers to increase the size of the Tomb Guard? A goot righteus smiting could double the number of archers in a pinch... but I would then not be too reliant on them for damage.

Cheers!

Asymmetric
19-04-2011, 00:05
Well I need to toss my hat in the ring for the Necro/Warsphinx debate. I would argue that due to the large amount of monsters that have regen i think the warsphinx might be a better monster killer MOST OF THE TIME .... however i plan to take a necrosphinx for a different goal .... character killing. Your opponent is always careful to keep his lvl 4 wizard on the side of his unit opposite big monsters and anything sporting killing blow attacks. You will almost never get a warsphinx into base to base with him.

Enter our winged friend. 10 " flight move will not do much but it will get you over the unit in front of you and to the exact spot where the caster is. With 5 attacks and killing blow you will watch your opponent sweat bullets while you roll. Want added fun ? enter TK magic , your Killing Blow attacks working on a 5+ , yes please! an extra attack from the army wide (almost) bubble thank you very much you old dead bugger! Then for good measure you thunderstomp the unit add all wounds caused and add +1 for charging ... even against static combat res you should be fine , then continue to grind at the unit till help arrives.

I know this tactic isn't flawless but enemy lord level casters are worth more points then their monsters on average .... so i think they make a perfect target for one of these bad boys. ESPECIALLY if they are flying around by themself your warsphinx will never catch them ... but a simple flight move can make all the difference.

I still think necropolis knights appearing near the unit will do it better. A lot more killing blow attacks from them for slaying wizards/bsbs.

As a flanker, the only times I'd really want a necrosphinx over necropolis knights is against fast high strength multi attack units, like frenzied chaos warriors with halberds or swordmasters. Even without support attacks those units could inflict heavy damage to the necropolis knights before they get to strike.You'd probably have to slap a 5+ ward on them first or make use of the SC necrotect re-roll armours saves to do it (or take units of 6, a little excessive).

Citadel97501
19-04-2011, 00:26
Looks pretty good, btw you aren't supposed to post points directly.

bored1
19-04-2011, 00:30
1. You can't really consider magic when comparing units. I can just as easily say let me cast Timewarp & the +1 attack spell on the Warsphinx, now it has 6 attacks w/ 12 coming from the crew.
2. HKB isn't a one in six chance of killing a Hydra outright. You have to hit with that attack first (and hope it isn't poisoned or no HKB). So first you have to roll a 3, 4, or 5 to hit. Then roll a 6 to wound. I'm not liking those odds while my XXXpt monstrosity is tied up in a combat that needs to end quickly before he gets flanked.
3. I'll give you that, the Necrosphinx is better in the movement phase. But now if were just talking about the Tomb Kings army as a whole, you can get 3 Necropolis Knights with Entombed Beneath the Sands for the same price. And I'm not understanding how you figure the Necrosphinx is better than Knights. No march 10" fly is not better than EBtS. Best case scenario, the Necrosphinx gets 4 S5 attacks, 1 S10 HKB attack, and 6 S5 Thunderstomps. The Knights get 6 S4(5 on the charge) KB attacks, 9 poisoned S5 attacks, and 3 S5 stomps. So (best case) the Necrosphinx will take out 11 RnF, while the Knights will take out 18. Not to mention a 3+AS, command options, and 9 wounds compared to 5, all for the same price.
If you want HKB in your army, might I suggest a Tomb King with the Destroyer of Eternities with a non-BSB Herald as a Sworn Bodyguard. More expensive yes, but then he gets 4 HKB attacks and can auto hit.

**edit** Took out point costs for Necrosphinx, my bad....

-I think you miss my point. You can evaluate units including external advantages, if you are consistent in the application of the advantages. So give killing blow to both. The necro actually benefits more against monsters, as it gains a 5+ kb. The warsphinx and crew gain no benefit at all. The warsphix would benefit more from the +1 attack spell, sort of. With the breath weapon, on the charge, the sphinx would probably do about 3 wounds to a dragon before saves. The necro would do about 1, but would also have a 1/12 shot of killing outright.

-why would you give the necro poison? Seems silly to me. So, against a dragon, you get 1 attack, hitting 1/2 the time, killing outright 2/6 of the time. Or 1/6. That's if you cast the spell. If you don't, it is 1/12, as before.

TheKingInYellow
19-04-2011, 01:10
Here's a thought...

Extra attacks stack and the wording of Smiting says +1 attack. So, horde formation of 30 or 40 Tomb Guard for three ranks of fighting with Halberds, defensively equipped prince or king for MWBD, and the special character Necrotect for Hatred and Frenzy.

So that's 40 rerolling WS 5/6 S5 KB attacks with no enhancements. Throw Smiting on there and it goes to 50 attacks. Get the cursed blades up and they are KB on a 5+!

Yeah they are a bit squishy with T4 and a terrible armor save but that's why you throw on the BotUL.

Could be one of the best Deathstars in the game...

GodlessM
19-04-2011, 01:21
I've seen a few people say that the War Sphinx can hunt Hydra because of having a flaming breath weapon; the breath weapon is one use only and only S4 (on average does only a single wound), plus only attacks at lower initiative steps (i.e. none unless paired with a GW unit) will benefit from the regen. being down from flaming. So he's not much of a hunter; just a unit that can hold it up and chip away slowly.

Mooseman007
19-04-2011, 01:35
So for the casket, what happens if I throw 6 dice at it and it irrestible forces, do I lose the spell because it is a bound spell or can I just not cast anymore on that turn?

Bac5665
19-04-2011, 01:38
Nothing at all happens beyond the spell failing.

Marshal Augustine
19-04-2011, 02:16
because it is an innate ability

Esco Thomson
19-04-2011, 02:39
So for the casket, what happens if I throw 6 dice at it and it irrestible forces, do I lose the spell because it is a bound spell or can I just not cast anymore on that turn?

The model with the Bound Spell can not cast anymore bound spells that turn because it is an innate ability, as mentioned above.


Nothing at all happens beyond the spell failing.

The spell wouldn't fail if he cast IF as mentioned...

Bac5665
19-04-2011, 02:40
Doh, right, 7E mentality.

Sqallum
19-04-2011, 09:33
How many pts is the Destroyer of Eternities/Death Mask? :confused:
Thanks,
Sqallum

Sqallum
19-04-2011, 09:33
Great review though - I may buy Scarab Prince, actually! :D
Sqallum

Odlox
19-04-2011, 09:47
How many pts is the Destroyer of Eternities/Death Mask? :confused:
Thanks,
Sqallum

DoE 20 skellies
Mask 15 skellies

(or so ive been told)

GodlessM
19-04-2011, 12:27
DoE 20 skellies
Mask 15 skellies

(or so ive been told)

Yup, spot on.

Skyros
19-04-2011, 14:35
Both are pretty pricy. The Mask is, I feel, more likely to be useful.

warplock
19-04-2011, 16:25
What do you think about Tomb Guard? I love them but they seem so fragile. You'd need a unit of at least 25, + the banner, to be able to go toe-to-toe with enemy elites and not lose them all within 2 rounds due to crumbling. It's 400+ points for even a modestly sized unit. I reckon they'd still need support in the form of WS boost or magical assistance to pull them through, bringing them to insane point costs. Even with KB I would dread to see them face anything killy like Chaos Warriors or Swordmasters. With all the buffs they need, wouldn't the points be better spent on Skeleton Warriors, with KB, hatred and a hex on the enemy unit to decrease their S and T... :confused:

Id'git Thwompa
19-04-2011, 16:37
Asymetric - once again you can't charge on the turn they show up so your opponent will shift to the opposite side of the unit , and since you have to hit as many troops as possible when you charge you will most likely only get one guy in combat with the character. Also damage back against the unit is most likely going to play a larger role and your unit may crumble before you can do away with the wizard. I am in no way disagreeing with you. I hope to field a unit of the knights as well ... but it won't be for character hunting.

Warplock - DOn't forget that not all of our augment spells are bubble radius the KB is only one unit ... and it is unlikely you will be able to get multiple casts off with out a unit stopping a few. In cases like this it is nice to have a unit that can still function well without the boosts (just make sure to try and get the 5+ Ward off on them for a bit of survivability)

teh unforgiven
19-04-2011, 16:51
help please... Im making 2k TK list and really need point costs commands
And also what is standard gear for skellies? And spear cost?
Batrep coming BTW
Thanks in advance
-unforgiven-

GodlessM
19-04-2011, 17:56
What do you think about Tomb Guard? I love them but they seem so fragile. You'd need a unit of at least 25, + the banner, to be able to go toe-to-toe with enemy elites and not lose them all within 2 rounds due to crumbling. It's 400+ points for even a modestly sized unit.

You say this as if this isn't the norm. in 8th ed.

minionboy
19-04-2011, 18:07
Destroyer + Other Tricksters Shard + 2+ fire ward amulet = rad tomb king. Just slap on the 5+ ward spell when it's needed and he should have plenty of protection in a unit.

The_Bureaucrat
19-04-2011, 19:12
What do you think about Tomb Guard? I love them but they seem so fragile. You'd need a unit of at least 25, + the banner, to be able to go toe-to-toe with enemy elites and not lose them all within 2 rounds due to crumbling. It's 400+ points for even a modestly sized unit. I reckon they'd still need support in the form of WS boost or magical assistance to pull them through, bringing them to insane point costs. Even with KB I would dread to see them face anything killy like Chaos Warriors or Swordmasters. With all the buffs they need, wouldn't the points be better spent on Skeleton Warriors, with KB, hatred and a hex on the enemy unit to decrease their S and T... :confused:

Tomb gaurd are great and with ws 6 (most time) str5 and kb they will be a staple for many lists.

That said however, the great thing about this book is there is no one unit thats even close to being mandatory to be competitive (Unlike VC). I can see a great list such as masses of skeletons to break steadfast back by a few warsphinxes, necroknights and the occasional support unit. Against str 6 it doesn't matter whether your feeding it toughness 3, 6+ save or T4 5+. So feed them the skeletons and focus your heavy hitters on a few units at a time. The question is with all the archers and chariots in the list, why is a full unit of SM able to reach your lines.

Asymmetric
19-04-2011, 19:15
Asymetric - once again you can't charge on the turn they show up so your opponent will shift to the opposite side of the unit , and since you have to hit as many troops as possible when you charge you will most likely only get one guy in combat with the character. Also damage back against the unit is most likely going to play a larger role and your unit may crumble before you can do away with the wizard. I am in no way disagreeing with you. I hope to field a unit of the knights as well ... but it won't be for character hunting.

I am aware they can't charge the turn they show up.

With 18 strength 5 attacks on the charge (mounts+riders+stomps) it's not nessessary for them to kill the character, they can just straight up smash a typical backline weak bunker unit.

Necroknights will take more return damage than necrosphinx's... but they still need be fighting a pretty decent unit to actually suffer much. That unit of 20 archers holding a wizard will just get ran over.

GodlessM
19-04-2011, 19:18
With 18 strength 5 attacks on the charge (mounts+riders+stomps) it's not nessessary for them to kill the character, they can just straight up smash a typical backline weak bunker unit.


I came into this late so I may bemaking a mistake about what the discussion is, but if you are talking about Necro-Knights (which is what it looks like) they have 5A @ S5 between the rider and mount, so how do you end up on 18?

Asymmetric
19-04-2011, 19:20
Necro-Knights have 5A @ S5 between the rider and mount, so how do you end up on 18?

Stomp attacks.

GodlessM
19-04-2011, 19:21
Ah yes. Though I wouldn't add those into every calculation as they can only be used on a minority of unit types.

Asymmetric
19-04-2011, 19:23
Ah yes. Though I wouldn't add those into every calculation as they can only be used on a minority of unit types.

A fair point.

The necrosphinx however doesn't get its thundercrush attacks on those units either mind, just 5 attacks.

GodlessM
19-04-2011, 19:49
Necrosphinx doesn't have Thundercrush, Warsphinx does, and has A4.

Asymmetric
19-04-2011, 19:52
Necrosphinx doesn't have Thundercrush, Warsphinx does, and has A4.

Sorry. I meant thunderstomp.

GodlessM
19-04-2011, 19:52
Fair enough.

Frankly
19-04-2011, 20:49
Thanks for the heads up Esco! Well done!

superawesomeraptorman
20-04-2011, 00:32
Played a game on sunday, dang you Karl Franz! 4 Great cannon

How many points was that? Anything below 3000, and 4 cannons is illegal? Only 3 of the same special choice? Or did you mean different warmachines?

Esco Thomson
20-04-2011, 01:25
Thanks for the heads up Esco! Well done!

No problem!

I plan on writing up some more after I have had some more games with the new book under my belt. Plus I ran out of characters on my wall of text in the first post...:eek:

Zoolander
20-04-2011, 07:44
Sounds like one for the FAQ I tihnk. ;) I thought a model's unmodified WS was his original WS?

Depends on how it's worded, and I expect this to be FAQ'd. Certain items modify an attribute, such as a great weapon. Other items replace the attribute with the number given, such as a Bloodthirster's ST 10 or the Fencer's Blades. I believe they mean modified by such things as Lore of Light Spell, Nurgle's ability, etc. but obviously, it's anyone's guess at this point. FAQ answers usually side with my line of thinking, but not always...


I dont know how it SHOULD be because I didnt write the book... but this is a tactics thread & tactically the Warsphinx is a better buy than the Necrosphinx every time. I know you could come up with some scenario like "well if I get this spell off then blah blah blah". But thats not dependable, so lets look at both Sphinxes without magic support (because magic support is so unreliable).
Ok the Necrosphinx is for hunting monsters. Why? Because he has ONE HKB attack? Yes it will be exciting when you HKB a Hell Pit one day, but it will only be exciting because it probably won't happen again for a while. Sure, you could take poison on him, but as others were already discussing you could ruin your chances of getting off that HKB. Sure, he flies. But he can't march (so can only fly 10"). And I don't know where you think he would be flying to that is out of range for cannons, cannons have 60" range.
The Warsphinx with all upgrades is 20pts more than the Necrosphinx with all upgrades. What does he get for this? Thundercrush. A S4 flaming breath weapon attack. 4 crew members with killing blow (which also means he has more attacks). Poison makes him just as effective at killing monsters as the Necrosphinx, Decapitating Strike aside.
In an all comers type list, the Warsphinx wins out hands down. Matter fact the only "monster" I can think of that the Necrosphinx would be better at fighting is a Steam Tank (yes I know it's really a chariot).

Angry much? Seriously the which sphinx is best debate is only outmatched in lameness by some of the responses I'd read here. They are both great units. One is slightly better at killing monsters and has more maneuverability and longer charges and can fly, the other does more damage on average in melee. They both benefit from magic in different ways. They will both kill monsters and infantry quite well. Other than slight advantages, you won't lose either way (with your choice that is).


Sorry, but that's crazy. On turn one or two you will be shot at. And especially because you can only fly ten, you will not be able to position yourself like you suggest. Not unless your opponent is an idiot; if they have cannons, they are going to make you come to them while they shoot you, which is kinda bad for TK, and makes it impossible to use enemy units to protect you necrosphinx.

So sure, I guess flying makes it easier, but in the same sense that eating an energy bar might make it easier for you to lift a car by yourself. Its possible, it happens with adrenalin and such, but under normal circumstances, you'e just too optimistic, to put it mildly.

Flying not only gets you there quicker, and allows movement over obstacles, but as was pointed out, the charge range is much higher, meaning you don't have to be quite as close. It's actually a big deal. But both of them will kick some butt in either case.



Tomb gaurd are great and with ws 6 (most time) str5 and kb they will be a staple for many lists.

That said however, the great thing about this book is there is no one unit thats even close to being mandatory to be competitive (Unlike VC). I can see a great list such as masses of skeletons to break steadfast back by a few warsphinxes, necroknights and the occasional support unit. Against str 6 it doesn't matter whether your feeding it toughness 3, 6+ save or T4 5+. So feed them the skeletons and focus your heavy hitters on a few units at a time. The question is with all the archers and chariots in the list, why is a full unit of SM able to reach your lines.

Well, the issue here is that anything you through skeletons at will just be giving your opponent free CR. I made that mistake a weak ago with my skaven slaves. I was concerned about my furnace being flanked and made a move I knew was dumb at the time, but somehow thought it might work out. I've seen it happen many times with zombies and skellies, but stupidly did it anyway. My opponent won combat by 10... killing 15 slaves... meaning had they stayed out of the fight, I would have won by 5. Just some food for thought. They can be very useful for protecting your flanks and tying up units for a short time (very short...), but keep them out of conjoined combats or you will lose. You think you will be breaking someone's steadfast, but when they kill 10-15 skeletons, you will no longer have the rank advantage even if you manage to win that... which you probably won't.

You definitely will see some more variety with TK lists, but I think GG are going to be a staple. GG with halberds and a Prince or King.



Some people are saying that the stalker gaze attack doesn't work on warmachines.

I don't agree as I think that you're supposed to use the crew Initiative, and it seems like at least someone from GW agree too :


Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16200033a

Quoting the website as a reference is like getting stock tips from the girl you order happy meals from. She could be right, but it's risky. But you are 100% correct in your guess. People that say that it doesn't work against war machines haven't read the BRB carefully enough. Pg 108 "You always use...Initiative...of the crew". You always use the war machine's TO for ranged attacks. Since this attack specifically states you use Ini instead of TO, you refer to rule #1 and use the crew's Ini. I'm not sure why that is hard to understand. Further, it is pretty obvious to me anyway that they intended this unit (and this attack in particular) to hunt war machines (it won't be useful against much else except stegadons and undead). They wouldn't need EBtS if they were after block units...

jtrowell
20-04-2011, 12:08
What do you think about Tomb Guard? I love them but they seem so fragile. You'd need a unit of at least 25, + the banner, to be able to go toe-to-toe with enemy elites and not lose them all within 2 rounds due to crumbling. It's 400+ points for even a modestly sized unit. I reckon they'd still need support in the form of WS boost or magical assistance to pull them through, bringing them to insane point costs. Even with KB I would dread to see them face anything killy like Chaos Warriors or Swordmasters. With all the buffs they need, wouldn't the points be better spent on Skeleton Warriors, with KB, hatred and a hex on the enemy unit to decrease their S and T... :confused:


Tomb guards have solid stats, they are not your basic skeletons.

With S4/5 and killing blow your opponent will be reticent to sent characters against TG units, and most unassisted units will lose a fight 1 on 1 versus them.

Don't forget that you also get E4 and 5+/6++ (parry) saves in a vanilla unit, so you won't be getting so many wounds back, and if you use halberds then you're hitting with S5 attacks, and not many units can survive that.

At worst if you lose a round, it should be be more than by a few points, and healing even 1d3+1 models with the lore attribute should keep your unit fighting if your opponent doesn't mobilize enough forces to kill it.

Note that if you put a prince of king in your unit, you should never be hit with better than 4+ and should yourself hit back on 3+ almost all the time

jtrowell
20-04-2011, 12:10
help please... Im making 2k TK list and really need point costs commands
And also what is standard gear for skellies? And spear cost?
Batrep coming BTW
Thanks in advance
-unforgiven-

All command upgrades cost the same a 5 skaven slaves

Skellies come at the cost of 2 slaves with hand weapon and shield

Upgrades for light armor and spear are the same cost as in the old book (too bad, I was expecting half point upgrades but we didn't get them :cries:)

Odlox
20-04-2011, 12:12
they have 5A @ S5 between the rider and mount

The necroknight mount have S5? I was sure it said S4 on that page thingy on their site. Cant find that pic of the stalkers/knights now. Anyone have a link? Or a link to the pic they copied for reference?

GodlessM
20-04-2011, 12:39
The necroknight mount have S5? I was sure it said S4 on that page thingy on their site. Cant find that pic of the stalkers/knights now. Anyone have a link? Or a link to the pic they copied for reference?

You are probably getting mixed up; the mount has S5, the ride has S4 however the rider holds a Halberd.

Marshal Augustine
20-04-2011, 12:43
@ superawesomeraptorman: Yes, I am well aware that the list was illegal... only clued into it -after- the fact... meh. They only killed my catapult and colossus, my light cav took care of them all, one cannon at a time :D.

I love scouting vanguard fast cav. Tee hee.

Odlox
20-04-2011, 12:43
You are probably getting mixed up; the mount has S5, the ride has S4 however the rider holds a Halberd.

That is awesome... however, i also thought the rider have spear/shield not halberd?

Esco Thomson
20-04-2011, 13:50
That is awesome... however, i also thought the rider have spear/shield not halberd?

Just Spears.

The_Bureaucrat
20-04-2011, 14:37
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]Well, the issue here is that anything you through skeletons at will just be giving your opponent free CR. I made that mistake a weak ago with my skaven slaves. I was concerned about my furnace being flanked and made a move I knew was dumb at the time, but somehow thought it might work out. I've seen it happen many times with zombies and skellies, but stupidly did it anyway. My opponent won combat by 10... killing 15 slaves... meaning had they stayed out of the fight, I would have won by 5. Just some food for thought. They can be very useful for protecting your flanks and tying up units for a short time (very short...), but keep them out of conjoined combats or you will lose. You think you will be breaking someone's steadfast, but when they kill 10-15 skeletons, you will no longer have the rank advantage even if you manage to win that... which you probably won't.

You definitely will see some more variety with TK lists, but I think GG are going to be a staple. GG with halberds and a Prince or King.



There are definite right ways and wrong ways to do it. A combined charge with your hard hitter maximizing frontage and your skelly unit just filling out the corner will get you very limited attacks. Further, you could add a couple of defensive kited characters ( a prince and a necrotect) and reduce your wounds by forcing you opponent to designate attacks to those character and champion.

The difference between a prince supported TG and skellies isn't as big as you think.


WS3/4, STR 4 vs TG (halberds)
50% hit, 50% wound, 83% are not saved = 20.8% wounds per attack

VS Skellies (base)
50% hit, 66% wound, 83% are not saved = 27.7% wounds per attack

Anything with str 6 the skellies have more survivability than halberd wielding TG.

Asymmetric
20-04-2011, 16:43
Just Spears.

Do they get shields as well?

I'm not doubting you of course since I'm not the one thats seen the army book, but the models come with big solid tower shields.

GodlessM
20-04-2011, 16:54
The difference between a prince supported TG and skellies isn't as big as you think.


WS3/4, STR 4 vs TG (halberds)
50% hit, 50% wound, 83% are not saved = 20.8% wounds per attack

VS Skellies (base)
50% hit, 66% wound, 83% are not saved = 27.7% wounds per attack

Anything with str 6 the skellies have more survivability than halberd wielding TG.

And how many S6 units are out there? Hence the difference.

bored1
20-04-2011, 17:44
For 280 pts, you can get 50 la/sh skeletons with full command. Add in a prince and necrotect with a little gear for a total of 460 pts.

For that many points, you'd basically get a block of 40 TG, or 33ish with halberds, and full command. Let's go with 35 halberdiers with full command.

Against WS3,T3,5+/6++ (let's say 5 wide)
Skeletons: 16 attacks, hit on rerollable 3's, wound on 4's, they save on 5+/6++ - 4.1975 wounds
Tomb Guard: 15 attacks, hit on 3's (WS4 IIRC), wound on 2's w/ KB, they save on 6+/6++ - 6.0185 wounds

And that's a fairly optimal situation for the TG unit. It managed a whole 2 wounds more. The skeletons and TG are actually equivalent in survivability against this type of opponent with the save difference. Personally, I'd rather use my special for harder hitting stuff, and fill out my core with large blocks, if I was going that route.

warplock
20-04-2011, 17:48
For 280 pts, you can get 50 la/sh skeletons with full command. Add in a prince and necrotect with a little gear for a total of 460 pts.

For that many points, you'd basically get a block of 40 TG, or 33ish with halberds, and full command. Let's go with 35 halberdiers with full command.

Against WS3,T3,5+/6++ (let's say 5 wide)
Skeletons: 16 attacks, hit on rerollable 3's, wound on 4's, they save on 5+/6++ - 4.1975 wounds
Tomb Guard: 15 attacks, hit on 3's (WS4 IIRC), wound on 2's w/ KB, they save on 6+/6++ - 6.0185 wounds

And that's a fairly optimal situation for the TG unit. It managed a whole 2 wounds more. The skeletons and TG are actually equivalent in survivability against this type of opponent with the save difference. Personally, I'd rather use my special for harder hitting stuff, and fill out my core with large blocks, if I was going that route.

Tomb Guard are only WS3. Their victims would only get the parry save, as the 5+ armour save is cancelled by the TG's S5.

TheKingInYellow
20-04-2011, 18:20
I've been thinking about how to use the Death Mask, since it costs a fair bit and will leave your King low on points for offensive or defensive options.

What I think might work is a 'horde-breaker' King. He'd go on a Warsphinx and would primarily be a support unit that can charge into combats to help reduce ranks and/or to break units that have been hit by large skelly blocks that don't have steadfast:

Tomb King
Mounted on Warsphinx (upgraded as points allow)
Death Mask of Kharnut
Sword of Battle
Dragonhelm
Seed of Rebirth
Shield
Light Armour

So, that gives him the ability to cause terror, ignore inspiring presence and BSB rerolls, he has 5 WS6 S5 attacks, plus all of the goodies from the sphinx. I'm not sure but does the Sphinx also gain WS6 now?

Defensively, he should be running a 3+ AS (LA, Dragonhelm, Shield, Mounted) with a 2+ ward save versus flaming and a 6+ regen versus everything else. If you want a higher ward, you could go Armour of Fortune and Dragonbane Gem and lose the extra attack from the Sword of Battle, whatever floats your boat.

Ram him into a flank, or even frontally next to a 5-wide deep skellie unit and they should run pretty much anything off the table. Expensive, but he sounds like fun :D

Thoughts?

GodlessM
20-04-2011, 18:26
Personally, I'd rather use my special for harder hitting stuff, and fill out my core with large blocks, if I was going that route.

And what hits harder than KB S5 Tomb Guard? S6 Ushabti who always strike last and will usually have their attacks reduced before they can strike. That's it. They are also not big enough to break steadfast on most unit. Warsphinx can potentially hit harder but depends on a wee bit of luck and again, cannot break steadfast.

As for your comparison, you are basing it upon the Skeletons depending on two characters who at the points you have given have pretty much no protection, so in combat the first thing any half-witted general will do is take out the two characters. Even if you gear up the Necrotect and Prince, with those points you could be getting even more Tomb Guard, and the opponent still only has to kill those two characters to neutralise the unit's combat ability. The Tomb Guard on the other hand are capable on their own.

Asymmetric
20-04-2011, 18:49
For 280 pts, you can get 50 la/sh skeletons with full command. Add in a prince and necrotect with a little gear for a total of 460 pts.

For that many points, you'd basically get a block of 40 TG, or 33ish with halberds, and full command. Let's go with 35 halberdiers with full command.

Against WS3,T3,5+/6++ (let's say 5 wide)
Skeletons: 16 attacks, hit on rerollable 3's, wound on 4's, they save on 5+/6++ - 4.1975 wounds
Tomb Guard: 15 attacks, hit on 3's (WS4 IIRC), wound on 2's w/ KB, they save on 6+/6++ - 6.0185 wounds

And that's a fairly optimal situation for the TG unit. It managed a whole 2 wounds more. The skeletons and TG are actually equivalent in survivability against this type of opponent with the save difference. Personally, I'd rather use my special for harder hitting stuff, and fill out my core with large blocks, if I was going that route.

A couple of points on the tomb guard vs skeleton warriors.

1) Your not factoring the characters into it. The prince and necrotect will both add significant damage output to the hand weapon and shield warriors.

2) Tomb Guard strike at I3, not 2. It might not seem like much but it allows them to beat other hard hitters like Black orcs.

3) I'm not that convinced about light armour. Under most circumstances I would rather have a 25% increase in warrior numbers than a 5+ save. Consider 40 warriors with light armour vs 50 without. Same cost and hard to justify the 5+ save with the amount of S5+ attacks around these days.

4) I don't think it's really worth using necrotect's on basic warriors unless they have combat characters (king's, settra's herald, etc) and/or spear hordes. A BSB herald to keep the prince alive and to make the combats closer consistenly I believe would be more effective.

5) Tomb Guard with all the bells and whistles in terms of character support and halberds will do massively more damage against tough enemies, like knights, monsters, chaos infantry, etc. Obviously suitably upgraded they cost a bit but there's nothing else that hits as hard and breaks steadfast.



In short I expect tomb prince's inside basic warriors units to be the most stable cost effective combinations for anvils. Add heralds at your leisure.

In terms of killing power and breaking streadfast nothing much beats horde tomb guard with halberds, provided they have suitable character support.

EDMM
20-04-2011, 18:52
I think Tomb Guard are too expensive for what they do.

At 3 times the cost of a Skeleton before halberds, I can't ever see a reason to take the Tomb Guard over Skeletons.

+2 points for halberds is a monumental ripoff too. At 14 points per model we're in Greatsword/Chaos Warrior points cost territory now. And that's silly.

Tomb Guard are no Grave Guard.

astorre
20-04-2011, 19:05
I think Tomb Guard are too expensive for what they do.

At 3 times the cost of a Skeleton before halberds, I can't ever see a reason to take the Tomb Guard over Skeletons.

+2 points for halberds is a monumental ripoff too. At 14 points per model we're in Greatsword/Chaos Warrior points cost territory now. And that's silly.

Tomb Guard are no Grave Guard.

And VC pay 8pts a Skeleton, it all evens out. TK work differently than VC, and while I think its a bit expensive as well its still a good option to take the halberds, I will run mine with the banner that gives them flaming attacks.

John Wayne II
20-04-2011, 19:05
+2 points for halberds is a monumental ripoff too. At 14 points per model.

It's 13 points IIRC.

Bac5665
20-04-2011, 19:10
I think Tomb Guard are too expensive for what they do.

At 3 times the cost of a Skeleton before halberds, I can't ever see a reason to take the Tomb Guard over Skeletons.

+2 points for halberds is a monumental ripoff too. At 14 points per model we're in Greatsword/Chaos Warrior points cost territory now. And that's silly.

Tomb Guard are no Grave Guard.

They are too expensive. But nothing else in the list does what they do, and what they do is a necessary function.

This is among the many reasons I'm not impressed with the new book. Can't be certain until its been played a bit, but it looks to me like everything still costs too much or is useless even if free.

But I'm willing to wait and see.

warplock
20-04-2011, 19:13
And VC pay 8pts a Skeleton, it all evens out. TK work differently than VC, and while I think its a bit expensive as well its still a good option to take the halberds, I will run mine with the banner that gives them flaming attacks.

Aren't TG the only unit that can afford to take the Banner of the Undying Legion in their unit? I think that banner's too good to pass up as it at least means you have one unit which can be (semi)-reliably healed. It's absolutely out of the question to give the banner to a BSB as this means he won't be able to take any defensive items and will be killed by rank and file enemies in the first round of combat.

GodlessM
20-04-2011, 19:27
I think Tomb Guard are too expensive for what they do.

At 3 times the cost of a Skeleton before halberds, I can't ever see a reason to take the Tomb Guard over Skeletons.

+2 points for halberds is a monumental ripoff too. At 14 points per model we're in Greatsword/Chaos Warrior points cost territory now. And that's silly.

Tomb Guard are no Grave Guard.

Well when you are paying a point more than they cost of course you are going to think as such.

As for being overcosted, Skeletons are 4pts right. Give them Light Armour for one point and now they are 5pts. Give them +1WS, S, T, and I, and give them +3Ld at a point per stat and you have them at 12pts. Give them Killing Blow and now they are Tomb Guard but at about 15pts a pop. if anything Tomb Guard are underpriced.

I'd also wish people would stop making direct comparisons between Skeletons and Tomb Guard; their role on the battlefield is not the same and thus they cannot be directly compared. Tomb Guard specialise at killing; S5 with Halberds and KB, they are going to be able to at least dent anything thrown at them (except perhaps a Sphinx funnily enough :p). They also scare enemy characters and even Chaos Warriors will be wary of them.

Skeletons on the other hand are best taken cheap and expendable; the ideal anvil. Take a unit of 40+ and deploy them 5 wide, simply to take a charge an hold up an enemy until you can counter charge with something like..oh I don't know...Tomb Guard perhaps :D The ideal army will have both. People seem to take too many things in theory at simple face value and try to apply them all to the same situation whereas the best strategy is to employ each unit to its strengths and allow it to focus there (that is also in response to the endless arguments of 'well my unit is good if I get such and such a spell, or buy such and such a character).

minionboy
20-04-2011, 19:27
Do they get shields as well?

I'm not doubting you of course since I'm not the one thats seen the army book, but the models come with big solid tower shields.

You could model them with shields, or bananas on their head, either way their save is always 3+.

Skyros
20-04-2011, 19:56
+2 points for halberds is a monumental ripoff too. At 14 points per model we're in Greatsword/Chaos Warrior points cost territory now. And that's silly.


Greatswords are 10 points. However, they are only T3, their S5 comes from a greatweapon so they strike last, and they are not unbreakable. Nor do they have killing blow.

I would expect tomb guard to mow through greatswords. (To be fair, almost any elite infantry mows through greatswords).

Maoriboy007
20-04-2011, 20:03
. if anything Tomb Guard are underpriced. Compared to Chaos warriors Temple Guard Black Guard and the like?.......at least they don't crumble. And before you mention it they tend not to break either.

Greatswords are 10 points. However, they are only T3, their S5 comes from a greatweapon so they strike last, and they are not unbreakable. Nor do they have killing blow.
I would expect tomb guard to mow through greatswords. (To be fair, almost any elite infantry mows through greatswords).Greatswords are stubborn, don't crumble and have better armour and WS. TBH An equal pointed unit of GS and TG would most likely decimate each other.
Its just that Greatswords have spent several additions being uselessly overpriced ,but are probably fairly priced now with step up (although so were TG), Greatswords should be ITP for fluff reasons alone (its astounding that they aren't!).

Asymmetric
20-04-2011, 20:19
Skeletons on the other hand are best taken cheap and expendable; the ideal anvil.

Thats quite an assumption.

I for one won't be running skeleton warriors without some kind of prince or king support. Theres too many instances were basic skeletons are simply a liability in terms of combat resolution and victory points for my liking. And since they cause practically 0 loses without character support and not in horde there verging on useless against stubborn/unbreakable troops who need to be flatout killed.

These were the main reasons TK players weren't taking skeletons in the first place and I don't think cutting there points in half changes this. MWBD does however.

And for the record - screw light armour, give me more warriors!

GodlessM
20-04-2011, 21:05
I for one won't be running skeleton warriors without some kind of prince or king support. Theres too many instances were basic skeletons are simply a liability in terms of combat resolution and victory points for my liking. And since they cause practically 0 loses without character support and not in horde there verging on useless against stubborn/unbreakable troops who need to be flatout killed.

And S3 Skeletons are going to flat out kill these troops are they? Unlikely. Character support is all fine as they take less casualties back, but they are still best used as an anvil. And no, it is not an assumption, they can't kill for ****, but what they can do is come in huge numbers deployed deep to hold up the enemy.

EDMM
20-04-2011, 21:06
The problem with Tomb Guard isn't an inability to hurt things, it's an inability to survive.

T4 with a 6+ save is simply ludicrous for a 13 point per model unit with a single attack. They're horrific glass cannons, and the minute you end up in combat with some Swordmasters, Bloodletters, Temple Guard, Chaos Knights, Chosen, Wardancers, etc. you're haemorraging points. Unstable is actually a huuuuge liability for them, because the real heavy hitters of the Warhammer world will kill more Tomb Guard than Tomb Guard will hope to kill back, leaving you in a CR defecit, and earning your opponent some juicy double kills in combat.

The same holds true of shooting and magic.

This leaves you in the position of being forced to use Augment spells to try and keep them alive. And if you're doing that, you might as well be doing it to Skeletons, who reap greater rewards.

TheKingInYellow
20-04-2011, 21:08
None of those unit types has a built-in healing method via a banner and custom spell lore though.

You can't look at a unit under a microscope, you have to look at in context.

Skyros
20-04-2011, 21:20
Compared to Chaos warriors Temple Guard Black Guard and the like?.......at least they don't crumble. And before you mention it they tend not to break either.
Greatswords are stubborn, don't crumble and have better armour and WS. TBH An equal pointed unit of GS and TG would most likely decimate each other.
Its just that Greatswords have spent several additions being uselessly overpriced ,but are probably fairly priced now with step up (although so were TG), Greatswords should be ITP for fluff reasons alone (its astounding that they aren't!).

What's really astounding is that they can't take a magical standard, but almost every variety of rat can.

Stubborn is nice, but I have had stubborn Ld9 troops with BSB re-roll break and flee before, so it can happen. Not crumbling is a big boost, although you would hope on such killy units you wouldn't be losing combats by big amounts to be subject to crumble.

I regard the armor as pretty much of a wash. I don't think either unit would be getting armor saves against most enemy elite infantry, would they? The stuff that really scares me is typically S5+. In the warhammer world you may as well have a 3+ save or nothing, it seems. I'd happily strip all my basic troops of their light armor if it gave me a point reduction.

The WS is a good point - I had assumed TG were WS4. If not, that's a point for the greatswords! Although I guess TG can have their WS raised by a prince/king.

Esco Thomson
20-04-2011, 21:21
Sorry, with all due respect, I have a large issue with using any logic where as Wardancers are used as a basis for any sort of unit performance evaluation.

TKIY nailed it though, you can't look at a unit out of context of the army that is supporting it.

Unless it is Wardancers...because in my turn, I will choose the Chicken Dance for them.

EDMM
20-04-2011, 21:22
None of those unit types has a built-in healing method via a banner and custom spell lore though.

You can't look at a unit under a microscope, you have to look at in context.

Skeletons do. That's the context. I am comparing between Skeletons and Tomb Guard. Tomb Guard won't do 3 times better against these opponents than Skeletons.

Although I am distinctly NOT comparing Tomb Guard to the units I listed, a huge number of units have access to Life, which is a better lore than Nehekara. So if I were to compare Tomb Guard to choices outside the book and we're adding in "magic and item" support to opposing units then I think Tomb Guard lose there as well.

TheKingInYellow
20-04-2011, 21:27
Skeletons do. That's the context. I am comparing between Skeletons and Tomb Guard. Tomb Guard won't do 3 times better against these opponents than Skeletons.

Although I am distinctly NOT comparing Tomb Guard to the units I listed, a huge number of units have access to Life, which is a better lore than Nehekara. So if I were to compare Tomb Guard to choices outside the book and we're adding in "magic and item" support to opposing units then I think Tomb Guard lose there as well.

Life does not even approach Nehek lore for healing. It is possible to heal 4d3+1d6+6 TG back in a turn.

EDMM
20-04-2011, 21:30
With one-hundred-billion dice and no dispels.

It is possible to make Swordmasters T7 with a 4+ regeneration save in combat AND heal some.

I know which I would rather have.

GodlessM
20-04-2011, 21:30
This debate is getting stale very fast considering how people keep acting like all these unit fill the same roles and can be compared on face value. As TKIY said, context is key. Any half decent general knows you can't look at just any two units and say 'A is better than B because it is more killy' when B might in fact be a unit designed to run around and harass rather than fight.


The problem with Tomb Guard isn't an inability to hurt things, it's an inability to survive.

The point in a hammer is to do damage, not soak up damage.


T4 with a 6+ save is simply ludicrous for a 13 point per model unit with a single attack. They're horrific glass cannons, and the minute you end up in combat with some Swordmasters, Bloodletters, Temple Guard, Chaos Knights, Chosen, Wardancers, etc. you're haemorraging points.

Then don't send them into such units :rolleyes: And are Skeletons going to fair any better against said units? Of course not.


Skeletons do.

No they don't. He asked what other units can have a built in healing banner, and Skeletons can't take magic banners.


With one-hundred-billion dice and no dispels.

Exaggerations don't do credit to your argument, they only make it hard to take seriously. Whereas your point stands as correct, saying things like this isn't going to win you anything.

EDMM
20-04-2011, 22:18
Then don't send them into such units :rolleyes: And are Skeletons going to fair any better against said units? Of course not.

I think they do better.


And if you can't send your elite force against the enemies elites, what exactly do you send at them?

But for the sake of analysis:

50 Tomb Guard with Halberds and command are 680 points.

You can get 130 Skeletons with Spears and full command for the same 680 points.

EDIT: What the hell is with the "413 Request Entity Too Large" error? I can't post more than 10 lines of text in a single post now??

EDMM
20-04-2011, 22:23
Against 30 Swordmasters:
Combat Phase 1
Tomb Guard suffer 24 casualties and inflict 13 casualties. 10 more Tomb Guard crumble from Unstable (Tomb Guard have +1 rank).

Skeletons suffer 31 casualties and inflict 6 casualties. 23 more Skeletons crumble from Unstable (Skeletons have +2 ranks).