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Dante blackfur
17-04-2011, 21:14
Well I've been playing skaven for a long time, but I have never fielded this awesome looking model. Now the reason I have never fielded him is mainly because I can have a grayseer on the bell or 2 grayseers for his points.

SO My question is, is he worth taking at all or will he be doomed to simply sit on the shelf watching longenly as his lesser mortals continually get put on the gaming table?

Can anyone shed some light on his uses? the only one I say was maybe as monster hunting since he has a d6 wounds weapon with WS8 STR6 and I10. any other reasons to even consider bringing him?

whitemagikmarker
17-04-2011, 21:20
if u like the model then do what i do use it, who cares if u can get 10 grey seers for the same price, if u like the model use it.

i use him and i think he is a great addition to the army, he can move fast and cast spells and is good support for the large blocks of clanrats and whatnot in combat, give him a shot and see for yourself

Korraz
17-04-2011, 21:21
I wouldn't even start thinking about him below 3500 points, and even then. Maybe, MAYBE on 4000, when I already have a Seer on Bell and a Warlord.
He costs too much, adds absolutely nothing to the army and has the survivability of a wet paper towel.

warplock
17-04-2011, 21:39
It's D3 wounds, not D6, making him a rather less impressive monster hunter, as his prey will almost certainly survive and rip his horned head off. He's toughness 5 with only a 5+ ward save. I would not recommend using him under any circumstances as considering his extremely high cost he is ridiculously easy to kill. Having said that, I love the model and would consider using him (if I owned the model) for that reason alone, under the right circumstances.

w3rm
17-04-2011, 23:00
I'm thinking about running one. I'm gonn play test it a bit.

Razuli
18-04-2011, 00:42
It's D3 wounds, not D6, making him a rather less impressive monster hunter, as his prey will almost certainly survive and rip his horned head off. He's toughness 5 with only a 5+ ward save. I would not recommend using him under any circumstances as considering his extremely high cost he is ridiculously easy to kill. Having said that, I love the model and would consider using him (if I owned the model) for that reason alone, under the right circumstances.

But he also has multiple attacks and a decent WS an S. He will likely and wound at least twice and probally more against any monster in the game.
He is incredibly expensive, but in 3k+ games he can be worth it, you just need to make sure there are enough targets (HPAs,DW, weapon teams, ect) that your opponent gets distracted and splits his fire. He is great at grinding large weak units, especially if you give him all of his spells from the plague lore. The only problem is getting him into CC with the said unit. The storm banner certainly helps though.

russellmoo
18-04-2011, 00:50
Another problem is that as a demon he is vulnerable to banishment-

He is a little easy to kill, he should have armor on top of the ward sv-

And he is overpriced-

But still-:)

Kevlar
18-04-2011, 00:58
He is not really overpriced. Sure, he may not be the best use of your entire lord point pool, but he is most def worth the points. A level 4 wizard with awesome stats and a weapon that can wreck most anything. I've taken out Vampire Lords on one swing with him.

With the storm banner and screening you can easily get him into combat on turn 2. Most likely into a nice juicy flank with limited return attacks. Give him plague lore and he is a potent caster even in combat.

I'm not saying he is the most competitive thing out there, but he does work. You have to build your army around him, but he can kick some butt. If you want to charge him headlong into combat you may want to dedicate a unit of gutter runners + champ or a lone assassin to go with him in case someone does the champion challenge. That way you can accept with your infiltrator and the VL can chop chop the enemy lord.

theman151
18-04-2011, 21:05
I played a game with him this weekend and he would be worth his points if he were stubborn. Unfortunately, without stubborn I lost him to a really weak unit (due to lousy rolls and him winning combat due to ranks and standards)

Malorian
18-04-2011, 21:09
I played a game with him this weekend and he would be worth his points if he were stubborn. Unfortunately, without stubborn I lost him to a really weak unit (due to lousy rolls and him winning combat due to ranks and standards)

You played him dangerously then.

The vermin lord is best used in combination with a ranked unit, much like any monster really.

ObiWan
18-04-2011, 21:33
Indeed, I agree with Malorian, I've used the VL only a couple times, if you like the model and you are not playing a tourney-level game, I am of the opinion he is a fun model to use on the table, he just won't win the game for you, think about him as an expensive wizard that can hold its own in combat and with the proper support even cause damage as well (in combat)

russellmoo
18-04-2011, 21:47
This thread has got me to thinking- I might just field him in a list next time I play skaven- I'm thinking moulder + plague monks and lots of censor bearers- it should be a good time-

Max_Killfactor
21-04-2011, 19:02
He does pretty well for me and I really enjoy fielding him. I agree you need to design the army around him. I've found the Stormbanner to be essential. The other important thing is to have other dangerous targets. I run 2 HPAs and a Plague Furnace.... so a very melee-oriented Skaven army.

Yeah it's not the most competitive build, but it does just fine. Plus, the Verminlord is just epic. My last game he picked a fight with a Doombull. Awesome. He lost though...

Squigkikka
21-04-2011, 20:21
I think 2 Abominations are competitive enough on their own my good man :P

Dante blackfur
21-04-2011, 20:25
how about
x1 vermin Lord
x1 plague priest w/ furnace
x2 HPA
enough slaves fpr the 25% minimum and the
and the rest for Plague monks. make it like a 2.5-3k list, could work. :evilgrin:

Max_Killfactor
21-04-2011, 21:24
how about
x1 vermin Lord
x1 plague priest w/ furnace
x2 HPA
enough slaves fpr the 25% minimum and the
and the rest for Plague monks. make it like a 2.5-3k list, could work. :evilgrin:

Yup, that's basically my VL list. I think I snuck in a unit of tunnelers, a BsB and clanrats with a doomflayer. Not sure as it's been awhile.


I think 2 Abominations are competitive enough on their own my good man :P

Exactly :cheese: I figure the usefulness of the dual HPAs counters the overpriced VL.

Really, Skaven are a solid army. We can get away with taking some sub par units and still be a threat to anyone. If you're a fan of the VL, take him... he's fun.

thefo
22-04-2011, 03:18
hes cool but hes expensive and personally i hate the model, if u make a cool conversion and u like him, have fun with him, but i think hes overpriced and there needs to be a new VL model

isanti13
22-04-2011, 05:35
Do yourself a favor. Take a permanent marker and find the entry in the army book about the vermin lord...

valdrog
22-04-2011, 06:12
I run him as a 13th Spell nuke, run him behind a slave unit so he cant get charge and then use as many dice as you want to get the 13th spell off, if it miscasts there is a very slim chance of him actually dying. The storm banner should help keep him safe from warmachines

Korraz
22-04-2011, 09:55
I run him as a 13th Spell nuke, run him behind a slave unit so he cant get charge and then use as many dice as you want to get the 13th spell off, if it miscasts there is a very slim chance of him actually dying. The storm banner should help keep him safe from warmachines

Why not just run a seer with a wardsave for less points and more survivability?

TheDrugLordX
22-04-2011, 16:08
He does pretty well for me and I really enjoy fielding him. I agree you need to design the army around him. I've found the Stormbanner to be essential. The other important thing is to have other dangerous targets. I run 2 HPAs and a Plague Furnace.... so a very melee-oriented Skaven army.

Yeah it's not the most competitive build, but it does just fine. Plus, the Verminlord is just epic. My last game he picked a fight with a Doombull. Awesome. He lost though...

I run a similar army with all above mentioned choices. I've even gone as far as saying my army is completely combat oriented. For my latest list i dropped my two firethrowers for two doom flayers. The throwers just killed me more than my opponent anyway. Yet to try them in my latest list tough.

Once he managed to beat a tooled up grave guard unit and vamp. Lord general in combat, altough another times he blew up after trying to wither a unit of chaos warriors :) he's a bit inconsistent compared to the usual grey seer or warlord choice, but the potential gain is also higher.

I did run him when i first started skaven, simply because i loved the model and the fluff around him (altough i originally hate greater deamons/deamon princes:p). Then i dropped him because he wasn't really fit for competetive play (i thought...). Recently, i've started using him again because using him overr a warlord and grey seer provides way better army composition score (and thus lets me use two hellpits!!:evilgrin:).

I have found recently, that running him on flanks is where he bellongs. His high move lets him chase away enemy flankers (he's usually way tougher than most) and it lets him get into a better position (in terms of covering from warmachines and spellcasting). If he would blow up, he doesn not damage my troops, and if i need him in combat his high movement allows me to (usually) throw him in at flanks/rears so he does not get killed.

As usually, it's about usage. You can not use a greey seer/warlord for this same purpose.

Dante blackfur
22-04-2011, 17:50
Why not just run a seer with a wardsave for less points and more survivability?

I posted this in my OP, that's also why I started this thread I was trying to figure out if he is at all worth the points, so far it seems to be 50/50 on love/hate :p but maybe I'll play test him in a game or two.

Any other suggestions on army builds to help him out a lot?

valdrog
22-04-2011, 17:56
Why not just run a seer with a wardsave for less points and more survivability?

Well, the Vermin Lord is also pretty damn good in combat, if you get him stuck with a unit, cast the 13th, and if it miscasts and your roll gives you the Big template on him, thats a lot of dead whatever he is figthing, just dont charge him alone into a unit.

russellmoo
22-04-2011, 19:35
You could run him along with 2 doomwheels/HPA's, take a bunch of plague monks, censor bearers, stormvermin, rat ogres- pretty much just take a CC heavy force and rush your opponent-

You could even go with a beast/feral sort of theme-

At 3000 pts you could Take Throt as the general, and the Verminlord- then fill up your core with giant rats, rat ogres, HPA's, maybe Skweel- and have an all creature feature

Korraz
22-04-2011, 19:46
Well, the Vermin Lord is also pretty damn good in combat, if you get him stuck with a unit, cast the 13th, and if it miscasts and your roll gives you the Big template on him, thats a lot of dead whatever he is figthing, just dont charge him alone into a unit.

So you need to absuse RAW to make him worthwile?

I stand by my point that it's not the smartest idea for skaven to have your LD10 running off on your flank.

Dante blackfur
22-04-2011, 19:52
You could run him along with 2 doomwheels/HPA's, take a bunch of plague monks, censor bearers, stormvermin, rat ogres- pretty much just take a CC heavy force and rush your opponent-

You could even go with a beast/feral sort of theme-

At 3000 pts you could Take Throt as the general, and the Verminlord- then fill up your core with giant rats, rat ogres, HPA's, maybe Skweel- and have an all creature feature

that would actually be kinda cool! :)

Throt
VL

Chieftain BSB,

x12 ROgres w/3 packmasters
x12 ROgres w/3 packmasters

x50 Giant Rats w/ 4 pack masters
x50 Giant Rats w/ 4 pack masters
x50 Giant Rats w/ 4 pack masters
x50 Giant Rats w/ 4 pack masters

x2 HPA

the total pts com pretty close to 3k :)

Kevlar
22-04-2011, 22:48
that would actually be kinda cool! :)

Throt
VL

Chieftain BSB,

x12 ROgres w/3 packmasters
x12 ROgres w/3 packmasters

x50 Giant Rats w/ 4 pack masters
x50 Giant Rats w/ 4 pack masters
x50 Giant Rats w/ 4 pack masters
x50 Giant Rats w/ 4 pack masters

x2 HPA

the total pts com pretty close to 3k :)

Just hope you don't roll blood and glory!

russellmoo
23-04-2011, 03:23
It's true B & G would be auto lose but-

Still kind of in theme you could run

Throt
VL
BSB

18 Ratogres

40 giant rats x 2

40 Clanrats x 2
2 HPA

Something like this will provide the necessary banners

popisdead
03-05-2011, 21:22
I'm going to say yes, take a Vermin Lord. Just to try out at least and see what armies it does well against.

Tambarskjelve
04-05-2011, 10:33
So you need to absuse RAW to make him worthwile?

I stand by my point that it's not the smartest idea for skaven to have your LD10 running off on your flank.

seeing as he cannot provide that leadership to anyone else in the army, why on earth wouldn't you run him on the flank?

He's best shot is to get into the flank of some unit that is being hit in the front by something else.

sninsch
04-05-2011, 10:58
for 100 to 125 points less he will be right. Now you can take a grey seer and warlord on bonebreaker ratogre with 2+ AS and 4++
This is a better use of the points.

The Modell is nice but there are a lot of demon princes in my vitrin ;)

T10
04-05-2011, 11:08
Do yourself a favor. Take a permanent marker and find the entry in the army book about the vermin lord...

Yes. You need to high-light the entry so that you don't make the tragic mistake of leaving him out of the army.

-T10

Grey Seer
04-05-2011, 15:35
Can you have more than one Vermin Lord in an army? I have heard the argument you cannot, because the Doom Glaive is a magic weapon, and you cannot have duplicate magic items in the same army. By fielding another Vermin Lord, you are fielding a second Doom Glaive.

Any thoughts?

Dante blackfur
04-05-2011, 15:39
RAW there is nothing saying that you can not have a second VL, whereas with named characters like Thanqrel and boneripper, it says in Italics you cannot have more then one Thanqrel and boneripper in your army but you can take a second grayseer if you want (pts allowing) my thoughts on the Doomglaive is that its not a "unique" weapon, simply a demonic one, so if the grayseers summoned a second Vermin lord he would also have a doomglaive, think of it as a gift from the horned rat. :)

Grey Seer
04-05-2011, 15:44
In the Skaven Army Book, under the description of the Vermin Lord, the title of the paragraph discussing the Doom Glaive is "Magic Item."

russellmoo
04-05-2011, 16:34
At 500 pts each with only T5 and a 5++ ward, I don't see why your opponent would have a problem with you taking 2 of them- the reason behind not having duplicate magic items as it breaks the game (i.e. multiple dispel scrolls, powerscrolls, 3 lords all with 4++ ward saves, etc.) - here even if it's not within the rules, I don't see why players would have a problem with it-

LordoftheBrassThrone
13-05-2011, 08:06
I know this is a tactics thread, but my personal advice is- what an amazing model!
I run daemons princes with my Chaos purely because I love the new model. If you like the model, and want to use the model, do it! My Chaos lord is the Archaon model, and if you did a cool conversion with a vermin lord ringing a bell, hey presto! you've got a grey seer on a screaming bell!

Kevlar
13-05-2011, 23:35
Can you have more than one Vermin Lord in an army? I have heard the argument you cannot, because the Doom Glaive is a magic weapon, and you cannot have duplicate magic items in the same army. By fielding another Vermin Lord, you are fielding a second Doom Glaive.

Any thoughts?

Magic items that come as equipment can have multiples. Like weeping blades on your death runners, things catchers on your master moulders, plague censers on your priests, warlock augmented weapon on your engineers, etc.