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Morkash
18-04-2011, 10:36
Hello fellow Warseers,
I have two questions regarding Skaven slaves, because after playing against the new Skaven for the first time, I have to say their Expendable rule seems a bit too good:
Situation was: Black Orcs in close combat with a block of slaves. Now I know that the Skaven player can shoot into close combat if only slaves are involved, what he excessively did. The Expendable rule also says that hits are randomised, while the Errata says "Ignore the last two sentences of the Expendable rule."
So question 1.) is:
Do I really get all the hits and the slaves just stand there and suffer no harm from Skaven shooting at all? Or does the 8th edition BRB cover this?

Then the rule says that you can use shooting into close combat, and he also casted magic into the combat. With magic missiles that makes sense, but can he cast Scorch (template spell) or the Dreaded 13th Spell into close combat?
So question 2.) is:
Can you cast into a combat with slaves? And if yes, which spells? (Besides Augments/Hexes of course)

Thanks for your help!
Mork

GodlessM
18-04-2011, 13:17
Oh oh, another D13 into combat debate coming up. Note a load of people are going to fill your thread will ridiculous arguments on a question you didn't ask.

But on the question you did ask, unless a spell can be cast into combat normally, it can't be cast into a Slave combat either AFAIK. As for shooting, if the FAQ changed it so they take no damage, then they take no damage.

hamsterwheel
18-04-2011, 14:12
The Skaven slave rule only concerns shooting into combat so the rules for standard magic targeting still apply.

As you noted, the randomize hit portion of the expendable rule has been removed. This means that standard shooting into the unit engaged with the slaves will only hit your unit, albeit, they will in most instances receive hard cover. Template weapons as in all instances, always hit every model completely or partially under the template including his own slaves.

mildaevilda
18-04-2011, 14:46
hamsterwheel: It is worth to mentioning that shooting to close combat with template weapon do not allow you to put template in the way it will hurt slaves (before scattering etc.)

GodlessM
18-04-2011, 15:11
hamsterwheel: It is worth to mentioning that shooting to close combat with template weapon do not allow you to put template in the way it will hurt slaves (before scattering etc.)

Where does the Expendable rule say he can't place the template touching the Slaves?

hamsterwheel
18-04-2011, 15:13
hamsterwheel: It is worth to mentioning that shooting to close combat with template weapon do not allow you to put template in the way it will hurt slaves (before scattering etc.)

Actually, I've always played it that as long as the template is touching the enemy unit, then you can place the template over the slaves before the scatter. I don't see anything in the rules to the contrary.

kaulem
18-04-2011, 15:35
I think it's a rule in the BRB. (I can't quote a page # I don't have it with me) and nothing the the "expendable" rule overrides it.

hamsterwheel
18-04-2011, 16:30
I think it's a rule in the BRB. (I can't quote a page # I don't have it with me) and nothing the the "expendable" rule overrides it.

Wouldn't this defeat the purpose of the expendable rule, as all template weapons can "accidentally" scatter onto units in combat.

RealMikeBob
18-04-2011, 16:32
Not really. The expendable rules lets you place a template on a unit in combat, before rolling for scatter. It just can't touch your guys as per the BRB.

hamsterwheel
18-04-2011, 16:42
Not really. The expendable rules lets you place a template on a unit in combat, before rolling for scatter. It just can't touch your guys as per the BRB.

Well from a RAW perspective, I can't find any flaw in your logic.

From a RAI perspective, I still believe it was intended to be played the other way. Nothing says expendable like "Oh, I can't shoot that way, I might hit one of those slaves".

mildaevilda
18-04-2011, 18:04
Well from a RAW perspective, I can't find any flaw in your logic.

From a RAI perspective, I still believe it was intended to be played the other way. Nothing says expendable like "Oh, I can't shoot that way, I might hit one of those slaves".

I agree, I think any casualties generally don't bother skavens at all, but rules are rules.

From a RAI point of view, I would randomize hits between slaves and other combatants for BS based shooting and let templates be put over slaves, but RAW is other way around.

Surgency
18-04-2011, 21:42
From a RAI point of view, I would randomize hits between slaves and other combatants for BS based shooting and let templates be put over slaves, but RAW is other way around.

I'm not sure how you claim that RAI Is for randomization, when the FAQ specifically removed the random hits line, and only that line...

As for templates, that is covered in the BRB on page 39, last sentence: You cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit. So while you can drop a template on a unit in contact with slaves, none of the slaves can be touched by the template

Kevlar
18-04-2011, 23:09
The Skaven slave rule only concerns shooting into combat so the rules for standard magic targeting still apply.

As you noted, the randomize hit portion of the expendable rule has been removed. This means that standard shooting into the unit engaged with the slaves will only hit your unit, albeit, they will in most instances receive hard cover. Template weapons as in all instances, always hit every model completely or partially under the template including his own slaves.

Actually no.

The expendable rule never mentions anything do to with shooting. It says "ranged attacks". Not "shooting attacks".

Unfortunately it is another poorly worded rule. There are many spells that are "ranged attacks" as well as magical attacks. Pretty much all of them except for stuff like flaming sword of ruin.

mildaevilda
18-04-2011, 23:56
I'm not sure how you claim that RAI Is for randomization, when the FAQ specifically removed the random hits line, and only that line...

As for templates, that is covered in the BRB on page 39, last sentence: You cannot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit. So while you can drop a template on a unit in contact with slaves, none of the slaves can be touched by the template

The missing randomization for BS based shooting doesn't make sense in context with BRB p.39 Shooting into combat. There is written that models are not permitted to shoot into the combat because there is too much danger of hitting a friend. That's why I think that BS based should be randomized.

Placing template over slaves is not as much RAI as Rules As Skavens Intended ;-) I'm content with RAW that's forbidding placing templates in such way. I can imagine that even treacherous skavens don't shoot to the slaves that are holding an enemy.

Surgency
19-04-2011, 00:12
So its against the fluff then, is what you're saying... Theres a bit of a difference ;)

The slaves die in droves in CC as it is, to add random shooting into the mix would mean that slave blocks need to be enormous, or (more likely) most players wouldn't bother shooting into slave combat. Keep in mind that most Skaven BS is 3, so only half the shots will hit. If half of those that hit go on slaves, then theres no point, as the Skaven player will hurt himself more than the enemy

mildaevilda
19-04-2011, 01:05
So its against the fluff then, is what you're saying... Theres a bit of a difference ;)

The slaves die in droves in CC as it is, to add random shooting into the mix would mean that slave blocks need to be enormous, or (more likely) most players wouldn't bother shooting into slave combat. Keep in mind that most Skaven BS is 3, so only half the shots will hit. If half of those that hit go on slaves, then theres no point, as the Skaven player will hurt himself more than the enemy

RAI is always fluffy ;-)
Argument that shooting to slaves' CC with randomization won't be so profitable is not an argument at all. No offence ment.

What I'm missing in the RAW is clarification what to do if anybody shoots to close combat, another that it is not allowed. For example my Rattling gun misfires and spins wildly. It hit enemy unit in CC with clanrats. What will you do? All hits to enemy or randomize? I think that this case should be randomized and if it's so, BS based shooting to slaves should be randomized too.

I can't help myself but even as Skaven player I find shooting into slaves' CC without danger of hurting them just cheesy.

Surgency
19-04-2011, 01:17
In the case of the ratling gun, it specifies exactly what happens, and no, its not randomization ;)

You may think its cheesy, but Skaven don't have any line units that are missile troops that can pour out enough shots to make BS3 randomized hits viable. Making their shooting only 25% effective would severly nerf their shooting, and make slaves+ranged an unviable option, given the fact that you'll already lose 5-10 per round of combat

szeszej
19-04-2011, 23:40
And what about Expendable vs Life is Cheap on Globardiers? Expendable says you can shoot and it's not randomised, Life is Cheap says you can shoot and it is randomised.

Surgency
19-04-2011, 23:48
shots from globadiers are randomized, because thats the way their weapon specifically works.

jaxom
20-04-2011, 18:44
RAI is most definitely *not* randomization for templates. They were very careful to quash that idea repeatedly because of a specific problem. A unit of Slaves charges a monster and now you fire your template at the combat. 1 hit to the monster, 10 to the slaves, now randomize. Whoops, dead Hydra.

While I agree with the fluff wholeheartedly, you can no longer randomize anything.

The issue with shooting into a unit in combat with Slaves that *often* (but certainly not always) mitigates is the hard-cover rules for firing through another unit. Can you see the enemy clearly or do they get cover from your Slaves?

(Again, that's totally not fluffy, but the rules read that way. I just want to return to the point that I am allowed to shoot my own slaves because that's what any self-respecting Skaven would do when they got in the way.)

mildaevilda
20-04-2011, 20:27
jaxom: I agree completely.
Surgency: I see. I was all wrong trapped in imagination of swirling melee.

Last question that bothers me: How is it with Crack Call and slaves? Can I aim Crack Call to unit in close combat?

GodlessM
20-04-2011, 21:10
Crack's Call doesn't have a target so you can throw it where ever you want.

Surgency
21-04-2011, 02:46
I wouldn't necessarily say you're wrong about the swirling combat thing, because the BRB even talks about "mass confusion, and swirling combats" when it says you can't fire into combat :p

They just changed it for the rats, and apparently we're the most orderly of close combat fighters now ;)

Ferrous82
21-04-2011, 18:33
Its simple. Skaven Slaves are quite used to be shot at by their superiors. They know when to duck...

Kevlar
21-04-2011, 23:33
Crack's Call doesn't have a target so you can throw it where ever you want.

What about scorch? Technically it doesn't have a target either. The wording to me seems like you can place it anywhere, like a vortex spell, even though it doesn't move.

mildaevilda
22-04-2011, 09:28
What about scorch? Technically it doesn't have a target either. The wording to me seems like you can place it anywhere, like a vortex spell, even though it doesn't move.

Scorch has a target, it is cast where you put template, so you should not cast it in close combat.

In friendly games I play even Cracks Call same way as a Cannon Ball. I don't cast it in way it may hurt my units or any units in close combat and I let my opponent use Look Out Sir!

Surgency
22-04-2011, 20:50
Scorch doesn't actually have a target, the template is placed like you do a vortex spell. Whether you can cast it into combat should have a FAQ, imo.

As with several other AB spells, if they would just add spell types in a FAQ, they'd squash several questions flat out :p

Kevlar
22-04-2011, 23:45
Right, the description just says you place the template anywhere on the battlefield. It does not say you specifically center it on or target any model or unit.

"Anywhere" on the battlefield is inclusive to on top of a unit engaged in close combat.