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KharnTheBetrayer01
19-04-2011, 23:11
No one book is ever totally bad.Not even when Games Workshop are in control.

This thread is for the moments of fluff you like, enjoy reading or think fit the Grey Knights.

For me, one of the entries I managed to read instore, having not bought the book yet, impressed me. A World brought to ruin by the Changelings machinations and aided by the Grey Knights. Some of the Populace is saved, but Changeling is nowhere to be seen, and it seems his energy can be read offworld (they can do that?). TO avoid him escaping onboard the civilian ships, the leader of this Grey Knigth quest has his Battlebarge take out all the Civilian ships. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that. Lovely.

baphomael
19-04-2011, 23:28
No one book is ever totally bad.Not even when Games Workshop are in control.

This thread is for the moments of fluff you like, enjoy reading or think fit the Grey Knights.

For me, one of the entries I managed to read instore, having not bought the book yet, impressed me. A World brought to ruin by the Changelings machinations and aided by the Grey Knights. Some of the Populace is saved, but Changeling is nowhere to be seen, and it seems his energy can be read offworld (they can do that?). TO avoid him escaping onboard the civilian ships, the leader of this Grey Knigth quest has his Battlebarge take out all the Civilian ships. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that. Lovely.

From my reading, it wasnt that they knew the Changeling escaped on a particular vessel, rather that the very chance that the Changeling might do such a thing was worth blowing up everything leaving the planet just in case.

Aethyr
19-04-2011, 23:47
Well nothing went right imo, either is over blown or doesnt make any sense. The fluff for the GKs has been royally screwed over by Matt Ward.

1) Chuck Draigo Norris
2) Stern wasnt even alive at the first Armageddon
3) Standard Chapter size marines
4) Vanilla marines with "shinier" gear
5) Random poorly executed conflicts in the timeline
6) Random new units that arent needed (Purifiers.... really cmon the old Daemonhunter GKs)
7) Ghost Marines
8) Missing clear and past fluff
9) Malleus Inquisition all but disappeared bar the few fragments
10) Xenos and Heretical Inquisitor sin the GK codex?!

Well the list goes on....

MajorWesJanson
20-04-2011, 00:05
Well nothing went right imo, either is over blown or doesnt make any sense. The fluff for the GKs has been royally screwed over by Matt Ward.

1) Chuck Draigo Norris
2) Stern wasnt even alive at the first Armageddon
3) Standard Chapter size marines
4) Vanilla marines with "shinier" gear
5) Random poorly executed conflicts in the timeline
6) Random new units that arent needed (Purifiers.... really cmon the old Daemonhunter GKs)
7) Ghost Marines
8) Missing clear and past fluff
9) Malleus Inquisition all but disappeared bar the few fragments
10) Xenos and Heretical Inquisitor sin the GK codex?!

Well the list goes on....

Thank you for that glass is half empty analysis. How about listening to the OP and adding what you liked about the codex?

The Terminus Decree is an awesome idea, Malcador using sorcery at the behest of the Emperor matches the emperor creating the Primarchs, Brand new geneseed created for the purpose, bringing back a lot of the mindwiping or killing survivors, Jokero, Radical vs Puritan inquisitors.

All off the top of my head that I liked, fluff-wise.

SgtTaters
20-04-2011, 00:07
What I like? The Grey Knights are written with a certain sense of 'courtly mythology'.

Now, a short tangent to put this in context of the other marines. I figure every codex goes for a certain style and the writing relfects it. Ultramarines, their founder wrote the "super greatest military manuel EVAR!!". You ever read a history book about Alexander, or the Roman empire? Those things are filled with immense fanboy gushing about why this famous guy to have a marble bust is the super most awesome undefeatable person ever. Ultramarines read like that.
Blood Angels go for a 'tragic hope, deeeep shadows' feel that vampires and guys with white angel wings are want to inspire. You have shining beacons like Sanguinor, you have guys on the verge of madness like the Flesh Tearers. They combine for a "omg vampire angels, so deeep tragedy!"
Space Wolves- they're rebels that do whatever they want... and werewolves. Their book is full of goofy fratboy pranking and viking mead drinking. They have Sagas of individual heroics and wolfing.
Dark Angels- SO FULL OF SECRETS, DARKER THAN DARK. Legendary "jock vs emo" rivalry with Space Wolves, except the emo won.
Black Templars- WE'RE SO ZEALOUS WE RETREAT BACKWARDS. etc.

---ok, so now on the Grey Knights

The Grey Knights are knights and Sorcerers.

When I read that line, I was flippin a ****. "HOLY ****!? BUT SORCERY IS FOR CHAOS!!"
Then it goes on to explain how sorcery and psychic powers are just two names for the same thing, and how the Grey Knights go about this seemingly contradictory practice.
"egads, how could they be so morally... grey?"

The Grey Knights are incredibly disciplined psykers that use psychic power against Chaos. Think about who else does this... Eldar. Eldar primarily fight Chaos, Farseers are always scrying fate for daemonic incursions, the greatest anti-daemonic resource is in the Eldar Black Library. It's not an unusual thing, and it's not like Eldar or Grey Knights are forming pacts with Chaos gods, they draw from their own strength.

The special characters all have a cool feel too. Stern's fate is forever bonded to that of the Tzeentchian daemon that haunts him. His rules have an awesome reflection of the fluff and it shows how everyone around Stern will die while he keeps on surviving. There's a strong sense of tragedy but also a sort of insanity that drives this man forward. It's maddening, it's chaotic, it's wonderful.

Crowe, the pure soul who keeps the daemon sword at bay. Incredibly skilled fighter too, the history of that evil sword was also an interesting read. The safest place to contain a daemonic artifact is in the hands of Castellan Crowe.

GK Jesus- I forgot his name, but his story had a cool sense of 'purity' to it. The child that was waiting for the Grey Knights, the youth who rose from his grave, and now the ageless knight, sworn to a kingdom he knows in his heart is doomed. But he fights on anyways. Has a very cool Arthurian knightly sense to him.

Draigo- GODDAMN CHAPTER MASTER SAMURAI JACK, WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE?? hahah, other than that his journey through the warp sounds like a high fantasy epic. Emerging in times of great peril to aid his loyal knights.

Mordrak- This is the ghost knight guy right? Hurion was an awesome nemesis in his story and now Mordrak is haunted by his failures. They manifest as ghostly apparitions. Mordrak originally thought they were there to torment him for his failure to save them, but in his moment of weakness their spectral blades saved him. Mordrak realizes that they don't hate him or begrudge him, but instead their knightly devotion to their lord exists beyond death. Now Mordrak wants to put their souls to rest by avenging their death, and his humiliation, together.


All of the Grey KNIGHTS feel like arthurian knights and wizards. They don't sound like ultramarines, wolves or angels, but have their own distinct style to them.

AngelofSorrow
20-04-2011, 00:12
Well nothing went right imo, either is over blown or doesnt make any sense. The fluff for the GKs has been royally screwed over by Matt Ward.

1) Chuck Draigo Norris
2) Stern wasnt even alive at the first Armageddon
3) Standard Chapter size marines
4) Vanilla marines with "shinier" gear
5) Random poorly executed conflicts in the timeline
6) Random new units that arent needed (Purifiers.... really cmon the old Daemonhunter GKs)
7) Ghost Marines
8) Missing clear and past fluff
9) Malleus Inquisition all but disappeared bar the few fragments
10) Xenos and Heretical Inquisitor sin the GK codex?!

Well the list goes on....

This thread is titled what went right in the fluff. Not what you hate about Matthew Ward.

Frankly I loved the entire codex. Great additions like the characters and dreadknights. Great fluff like castellan Crowe and the fact that grey knights will use every tool at their disposal to drive chaos off. Love that they work with all inquisitors not just the Ordo malleus.


"Ready for eternal war!"

KharnTheBetrayer01
20-04-2011, 00:15
Nice to see some positivity!

So far, the things mentioned do sound good. I thought I was alone in like the Jokaero... Then again, my bias for them springs from imagining one of them in a green robe swinging through the Black Library.

Have to admit, usually I don't like battlemages, but the Grey Knights image seems to make it work.

SgtTaters
20-04-2011, 00:21
I thought I was alone in like the Jokaero... Then again, my bias for them springs from imagining one of them in a green robe swinging through the Black Library.

Have to admit, usually I don't like battlemages, but the Grey Knights image seems to make it work.

DOUBLE SECRET FANBOY THEORY:

-The Jokaero are incredible techno-savants that build miracles of technology on a whim. They can make everything from anything.

-The Dreadknight is an incredible piece of technology seemingly beyond the Imperium's capabilities, its origins unknown and secret to the Admechs.

Both appear in Codex: Grey Knights

Put two and two together and... :evilgrin:

ashendant
20-04-2011, 00:27
10) Xenos and Heretical Inquisitor sin the GK codex?!

I think that's because they are making the Inquisition more like the Harlequins

PostinDirty
20-04-2011, 01:21
i'm probably the only person who thought the vast majority of the book was awesome - over the top and totally 40k. most of the fluff has had precedents in previous editions of the game, so i can't help but feel a lot of people are just being swept up with a popular consensus.

baphomael
20-04-2011, 01:39
What I like? The Grey Knights are written with a certain sense of 'courtly mythology'.

Now, a short tangent to put this in context of the other marines. I figure every codex goes for a certain style and the writing relfects it. Ultramarines, their founder wrote the "super greatest military manuel EVAR!!". You ever read a history book about Alexander, or the Roman empire? Those things are filled with immense fanboy gushing about why this famous guy to have a marble bust is the super most awesome undefeatable person ever. Ultramarines read like that.
Blood Angels go for a 'tragic hope, deeeep shadows' feel that vampires and guys with white angel wings are want to inspire. You have shining beacons like Sanguinor, you have guys on the verge of madness like the Flesh Tearers. They combine for a "omg vampire angels, so deeep tragedy!"
Space Wolves- they're rebels that do whatever they want... and werewolves. Their book is full of goofy fratboy pranking and viking mead drinking. They have Sagas of individual heroics and wolfing.
Dark Angels- SO FULL OF SECRETS, DARKER THAN DARK. Legendary "jock vs emo" rivalry with Space Wolves, except the emo won.
Black Templars- WE'RE SO ZEALOUS WE RETREAT BACKWARDS. etc.

---ok, so now on the Grey Knights

The Grey Knights are knights and Sorcerers.

When I read that line, I was flippin a ****. "HOLY ****!? BUT SORCERY IS FOR CHAOS!!"
Then it goes on to explain how sorcery and psychic powers are just two names for the same thing, and how the Grey Knights go about this seemingly contradictory practice.
"egads, how could they be so morally... grey?"

The Grey Knights are incredibly disciplined psykers that use psychic power against Chaos. Think about who else does this... Eldar. Eldar primarily fight Chaos, Farseers are always scrying fate for daemonic incursions, the greatest anti-daemonic resource is in the Eldar Black Library. It's not an unusual thing, and it's not like Eldar or Grey Knights are forming pacts with Chaos gods, they draw from their own strength.

The special characters all have a cool feel too. Stern's fate is forever bonded to that of the Tzeentchian daemon that haunts him. His rules have an awesome reflection of the fluff and it shows how everyone around Stern will die while he keeps on surviving. There's a strong sense of tragedy but also a sort of insanity that drives this man forward. It's maddening, it's chaotic, it's wonderful.

Crowe, the pure soul who keeps the daemon sword at bay. Incredibly skilled fighter too, the history of that evil sword was also an interesting read. The safest place to contain a daemonic artifact is in the hands of Castellan Crowe.

GK Jesus- I forgot his name, but his story had a cool sense of 'purity' to it. The child that was waiting for the Grey Knights, the youth who rose from his grave, and now the ageless knight, sworn to a kingdom he knows in his heart is doomed. But he fights on anyways. Has a very cool Arthurian knightly sense to him.

Draigo- GODDAMN CHAPTER MASTER SAMURAI JACK, WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE?? hahah, other than that his journey through the warp sounds like a high fantasy epic. Emerging in times of great peril to aid his loyal knights.

Mordrak- This is the ghost knight guy right? Hurion was an awesome nemesis in his story and now Mordrak is haunted by his failures. They manifest as ghostly apparitions. Mordrak originally thought they were there to torment him for his failure to save them, but in his moment of weakness their spectral blades saved him. Mordrak realizes that they don't hate him or begrudge him, but instead their knightly devotion to their lord exists beyond death. Now Mordrak wants to put their souls to rest by avenging their death, and his humiliation, together.


All of the Grey KNIGHTS feel like arthurian knights and wizards. They don't sound like ultramarines, wolves or angels, but have their own distinct style to them.



Although, psychic powers are not the same as sorcery. Its like the Early Modern distinction between magic and Maleficium. In the latter case, Maleficium is not merely the using of supernatural powers, its a socio-political-religious state of being, it was viewed as not merely practising magic but a spiritual statement of aligning oneself with Satan to gain that power. It was an act of heresy, blasphemy and, most importantly, apostasy.

Similarly, sorcery in 40k seems to hold a similar position to maleficium in Early Modern Europe - its not the use of power thats the issue (since the Imperium regularly uses psykers) but, rather, exactly where that power is derived from.

What makes the GK's interesting is that they were founded by individuals (ie, the Emperor and Malcador) who did not possess the kind of religious distinction that exists in the modern 40k timeline. Malcador and the Emperor had no religious qualms about rippping-off the denizens of the Warp if it aided their temporal ambitions. The modern Imperium has a more spiritual distaste in such actions.

MrInsomniac
20-04-2011, 01:54
Well nothing went right imo, either is over blown or doesnt make any sense. The fluff for the GKs has been royally screwed over by Matt Ward.

1) Chuck Draigo Norris
2) Stern wasnt even alive at the first Armageddon
3) Standard Chapter size marines
4) Vanilla marines with "shinier" gear
5) Random poorly executed conflicts in the timeline
6) Random new units that arent needed (Purifiers.... really cmon the old Daemonhunter GKs)
7) Ghost Marines
8) Missing clear and past fluff
9) Malleus Inquisition all but disappeared bar the few fragments
10) Xenos and Heretical Inquisitor sin the GK codex?!

Well the list goes on....

1) He's the best of the best of the greatest marine force. Some things are stretched a bit further than I imagined I'll grant you that, but really? I think it's simply a case of "Space Marine Leader Hate Syndrome"...

2) Funny, according my codex, he was...

3) 1000 Battle Brothers bothers you that much? I can't even imagine why this is really an issue at all.

4) "Vanilla" marines but with different stuff? So not "vanilla" at all then?

5) It's a timeline, it's not random...

6) A fearless elite unit not clad in terminator armour for players who want a harder hitting squad in aegis armour? A nice option no?

7) Is it really so hard to imagine that a grieving super-psyker might well manifest his thoughts into those of his fallen commrades?

8) It's a new 'dex, not a cut and paste job.

9) But they're still there. I can take them. Right there on pages 44 and 87.

10) Yes? The methods of the Grey Knights are hardly cut and dry are they?

;)

I liked the codex a lot. What went right for me? The rules. This is a good codex with which I can build lots of different lists. I also liked the fact that we're constantly told that the "space marines" are humanities last defence against the predations of the galaxy and the warp, but the Grey Knights know that even they are powerless. They have the future on their shoulders and it doesn't burden them at all. Ward did good I think.

Lord Lorne Walkier
20-04-2011, 04:45
What i liked most is the information about their founding. That there were 8 Founding Grandmasters, some of who were from Traitor Legions. I also liked that Titan was hidden in the Warp.

RunepriestRidcully
20-04-2011, 05:58
I liked the terminus decree, and it was nice to see Ahriman doing stuff without being stopped by a space wolf glancng at him (what it normally seems to take to stop the thousand sons) and the jokeroe but other then that....... not much really, still using my old codex as I prefer it's fluff.

Idaan
20-04-2011, 11:39
The Grey Knights are knights and Sorcerers.

When I read that line, I was flippin a ****. "HOLY ****!? BUT SORCERY IS FOR CHAOS!!"
Then it goes on to explain how sorcery and psychic powers are just two names for the same thing, and how the Grey Knights go about this seemingly contradictory practice.
"egads, how could they be so morally... grey?"

Which goes against 20 years of established background saying that psychic powers and sorcery not being the same. The former is channelling the warp energy through an opening created by the attuned mind of someone who was born with that talent. The latter is making pacts with Warp entities who send through the energy. It doesn't require the caster to be a psyker.

I'm all for the Grey Knights, but calling it, say, thaumaturgy, hermeticism, voodoo, pow-wow or whatever. There are thousands of real world magical systems that could be used without violating previous background.


That said, I like the Inq Retinues a lot - they inject a healthy dose of wackiness, fanaticism, and gothicness into what otherwise would be just a bland Marinewank.

theJ
20-04-2011, 13:31
Well, I'm a firm disbeliever in the new GK codex, especially since I very much prefered their old approach.

Even I have to admit the 'Terminus Decree' is pretty darn neat, though.

The bearded one
20-04-2011, 19:35
I read the first couple pages about their founding, the chapter and it's resources, and Titan.

I loved the bit about them locking up Daemons with technology in cubes. It in fact represents a splinter of hope of a final solution to chaos, even if so far they've only reduced the daemonic threat by a miniscule fraction it's still something so the situation is not entirely hopeless. In fact they even captured a greater daemon which is pretty amazing.

The parts about their training of recruits are pretty cool as well. They're just thrown into the deep and the GK just look who survive the trials. Those who survive should be hardened enough to become grey knights.

castellanash
20-04-2011, 19:38
Nothing...

Sephiroth
20-04-2011, 19:43
Inquisitor Corteaz actually gained some depth. So that was nice. The idea the Grey Knights have alliances with other races sworn to defeat Chaos, such as the Eldar, was also nice.

RunepriestRidcully
20-04-2011, 20:39
I thought the Grey knights alliances with the Eldar (especially the harliquinns) and dealings with them was older fluff that had been around for a while, I've had an image of Grey knight terminators and harliquinns fighting alongside each other against daemons in the webway.

Aethyr
20-04-2011, 21:08
I thought the Grey knights alliances with the Eldar (especially the harliquinns) and dealings with them was older fluff that had been around for a while, I've had an image of Grey knight terminators and harliquinns fighting alongside each other against daemons in the webway.

Its has been said the Ordo Malleus has knowledge to the Black Library and an Inquistior (although from the Ordo Xenos I think) has actually been to the site gaining greater knowledge on chaos.

For MrInsomniac Im not even going to bother, clearly you dont have sufficient background knowledge to the GKs to even form an argument to my earlier post.

Kyrios
20-04-2011, 23:32
I liked that they tried to explain some things in a way that makes sense. Like how do the Grey Knigts respond to daemonic incursions in time?
Powerfull psychers work hard to predict invasions in realspace and they have ships that can navigate the wapr extremely fast but it almost rips the hulls apart so they spend most of the time in docks getting repaired again. Neat.

baphomael
20-04-2011, 23:41
Inquisitor Corteaz actually gained some depth. So that was nice. The idea the Grey Knights have alliances with other races sworn to defeat Chaos, such as the Eldar, was also nice.

Yea, I love the direction Coteaz has gone in. Stasi much?

grayghost
21-04-2011, 10:29
1) He's the best of the best of the greatest marine force. Some things are stretched a bit further than I imagined I'll grant you that, but really? I think it's simply a case of "Space Marine Leader Hate Syndrome"...

2) Funny, according my codex, he was...

3) 1000 Battle Brothers bothers you that much? I can't even imagine why this is really an issue at all.

4) "Vanilla" marines but with different stuff? So not "vanilla" at all then?

5) It's a timeline, it's not random...

6) A fearless elite unit not clad in terminator armour for players who want a harder hitting squad in aegis armour? A nice option no?

7) Is it really so hard to imagine that a grieving super-psyker might well manifest his thoughts into those of his fallen commrades?

8) It's a new 'dex, not a cut and paste job.

9) But they're still there. I can take them. Right there on pages 44 and 87.

10) Yes? The methods of the Grey Knights are hardly cut and dry are they?

;)

I liked the codex a lot. What went right for me? The rules. This is a good codex with which I can build lots of different lists. I also liked the fact that we're constantly told that the "space marines" are humanities last defence against the predations of the galaxy and the warp, but the Grey Knights know that even they are powerless. They have the future on their shoulders and it doesn't burden them at all. Ward did good I think.

Well said, especially bullet #7.

My only gripe is an extremely minor one, and that is the ubiquitousness of the GK Librarian. I can't envision a GK army without 'im.

Idaan
21-04-2011, 10:32
7) Is it really so hard to imagine that a grieving super-psyker might well manifest his thoughts into those of his fallen commrades?


Not at all. But it's pretty unoriginal that every SM codex in 5 edition has to have some make-believe ghost Marines that appear in times of need. And their stats don't really represent the fact that they're ghostly apparitions. I expected something different than Thousand Sons Cult Terminators.

Astraeos
21-04-2011, 10:52
What I like? The Grey Knights are written with a certain sense of 'courtly mythology'.

The Grey Knights are knights and Sorcerers.

When I read that line, I was flippin a ****. "HOLY ****!? BUT SORCERY IS FOR CHAOS!!"
Then it goes on to explain how sorcery and psychic powers are just two names for the same thing, and how the Grey Knights go about this seemingly contradictory practice.
"egads, how could they be so morally... grey?"

The Grey Knights are incredibly disciplined psykers that use psychic power against Chaos. Think about who else does this... Eldar. Eldar primarily fight Chaos, Farseers are always scrying fate for daemonic incursions, the greatest anti-daemonic resource is in the Eldar Black Library. It's not an unusual thing, and it's not like Eldar or Grey Knights are forming pacts with Chaos gods, they draw from their own strength.

The special characters all have a cool feel too. Stern's fate is forever bonded to that of the Tzeentchian daemon that haunts him. His rules have an awesome reflection of the fluff and it shows how everyone around Stern will die while he keeps on surviving. There's a strong sense of tragedy but also a sort of insanity that drives this man forward. It's maddening, it's chaotic, it's wonderful.

Crowe, the pure soul who keeps the daemon sword at bay. Incredibly skilled fighter too, the history of that evil sword was also an interesting read. The safest place to contain a daemonic artifact is in the hands of Castellan Crowe.

GK Jesus- I forgot his name, but his story had a cool sense of 'purity' to it. The child that was waiting for the Grey Knights, the youth who rose from his grave, and now the ageless knight, sworn to a kingdom he knows in his heart is doomed. But he fights on anyways. Has a very cool Arthurian knightly sense to him.

Draigo- GODDAMN CHAPTER MASTER SAMURAI JACK, WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE?? hahah, other than that his journey through the warp sounds like a high fantasy epic. Emerging in times of great peril to aid his loyal knights.

Mordrak- This is the ghost knight guy right? Hurion was an awesome nemesis in his story and now Mordrak is haunted by his failures. They manifest as ghostly apparitions. Mordrak originally thought they were there to torment him for his failure to save them, but in his moment of weakness their spectral blades saved him. Mordrak realizes that they don't hate him or begrudge him, but instead their knightly devotion to their lord exists beyond death. Now Mordrak wants to put their souls to rest by avenging their death, and his humiliation, together.


All of the Grey KNIGHTS feel like arthurian knights and wizards. They don't sound like ultramarines, wolves or angels, but have their own distinct style to them.

Very well said SgtTaters! It's good to look at the book from that perspective.
I've read it and to be honest the only thing I didn't like was how Draigo carved his name on Mortarion's heart. But it was more that they didn't elaborate on how he did the deed, the segment almost reads like he just casually walked up to the Daemon Primarch!

The bit about killing Battle Sisters and the inclusion of the Ecclesiarchy's Arco-Flaggellants are the only other sore spots for me.

But everything else fluff wise is good! And it's nice to see the army expanded from being just power and terminator armoured troops to power and terminator armoured troops with a purpose.

New Cult King
21-04-2011, 11:35
Not at all. But it's pretty unoriginal that every SM codex in 5 edition has to have some make-believe ghost Marines that appear in times of need.

I'm aware of the Legion of the Damned, but do you also mean Sanguinor in BA? Do SW have an equivalent?

Narf
21-04-2011, 12:02
SW, DA & BT dont have an equivelant as far as i'm aware.

That leaves vanilla, BA now (not before) and GK that do.

LexxBomb
21-04-2011, 12:22
personally even the previous codex screwed the Grey Knight's fluff... All of then should be psychers and wear terminator armor...period!!!

TrooperTino
21-04-2011, 12:32
The sister-killing was a bitter pill to swallow, I changed it in "my own" 40k so that they offered themselfes to the GKs, sacrifacing themselfes so that the GKs could stop the deamontide.

But I can see the reason behind such a story in the codex: The GKs do everything to stop a deamon. Everything!
They are made by rational people in a time when science and reason were stronger than faith and so they are still outside the thinking in the Imperium in 40k. To them killing those sisters for their blood was a nessessary evil they did to achieve a higher goal and so they did it without thinking it to be some kind of sin that could damn their souls... they think rational and did what they had to do.

The old GK fluff was great! But could it be that that was how others see the GKs and not how they really are? We all thought they are the most faithfull and pure of all.... but no... they are the most rational and use cold logic.

Symrivven
21-04-2011, 12:45
The old GK fluff was great! But could it be that that was how others see the GKs and not how they really are? We all thought they are the most faithfull and pure of all.... but no... they are the most rational and use cold logic.

Interesting thought, that could also be a way to explain their resistance* to chaos. With chaos and daemons being based on emotions, being rational might actually be a better defence than being faithful.

On the other hand there might be scores of stories of people defecting to chaos based on rational idea's.

*In addition to all the mental training and modification.

Thanatos_elNyx
21-04-2011, 12:54
Except for Draigo I think most of the fluff is fine.
Carving initials into a Daemon Primarchs heart? Seriously? :wtf:

Even the sisters bath is suitably grimdark even if it doesn't make any sense.

I love the delicious hypocracy of the Imperium kicking the Thousand Sons out for using Sorcery only to turn around and sanction a whole chapter to do exactly the same thing.
Couldn't they have saved a step and taken the Thousand Sons aside and train them in an Emperor approved methods.

Urza
21-04-2011, 12:58
personally even the previous codex screwed the Grey Knight's fluff... All of then should be psychers and wear terminator armor...period!!!

No... :rolleyes:

There's been Power-Armoured Grey Knights ever since their first Army List in 1st Edition's RoC: Slaves To Darkness.

Fox Of 9
21-04-2011, 13:34
The sister-killing was a bitter pill to swallow, I changed it in "my own" 40k so that they offered themselfes to the GKs, sacrifacing themselfes so that the GKs could stop the deamontide.

But I can see the reason behind such a story in the codex: The GKs do everything to stop a deamon. Everything!
They are made by rational people in a time when science and reason were stronger than faith and so they are still outside the thinking in the Imperium in 40k. To them killing those sisters for their blood was a nessessary evil they did to achieve a higher goal and so they did it without thinking it to be some kind of sin that could damn their souls... they think rational and did what they had to do.

The old GK fluff was great! But could it be that that was how others see the GKs and not how they really are? We all thought they are the most faithfull and pure of all.... but no... they are the most rational and use cold logic.

this view of the sister killing is how i view it and it creats a really great image of GK and sisters working together. plus its quite funny as well if you view it as written.

Wade Wilson
21-04-2011, 13:47
Draigo- GODDAMN CHAPTER MASTER SAMURAI JACK, WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE?? hahah, other than that his journey through the warp sounds like a high fantasy epic. Emerging in times of great peril to aid his loyal knights.



Draigo = Samurai Jack

Hahaha, epic anology dude.

I see him almost as a 40k version of Gotrek myself.

Goatboy
21-04-2011, 20:05
I liked the majority of the ideas and concepts in the book. Although many could do with a bit more polish.
The Inquisition(and the higher levels of the Imperium) has always had a "do as I say not as I do" policy. So it doesnt bother me that there chamber militant works the same way.
I was glad to see mentions of the GK fighting non chaos forces for normal reasons. Some people would have the GK ignoring any threat to the Imperium that was not chaos related and that never sat well with me.
The Bloodtide incident with the Sisters is one of those ideas that IMO needs polish. To me it shows that while the GK are incorruptible, due to there fairly rationale view of the universe they lack the faith that the Sisters have.

Kreutz
21-04-2011, 21:43
terminus decree - gave me some of the goosebumps. a fresh myth with much to think about.

the ARTWORK - love those. but i would give a kingdom for mark gibbons concept sketeches about grey knights.

the tremors beneath mount anarch and the purifiers guarding it - another goosebumb thingy

dreadknight - somehow i think its a weird but cool addition.

8 grandmasters - the knightly table!


well. thinking about it shows me how awful the fluff really is. you really have to look a while to find nice bits. i remember reading this stuff for the first time - i found myself mumbling "oh god.. oh no... oh dear god no.. oh dear"

grey knights got wardhammered - for me they lost their mysterious gloomy halo.

madprophet
22-04-2011, 03:00
I like the whole secret society aspect of the order. The Terminus Decree is also pretty cool, the whole ultimate "deep, dark, secret".:evilgrin:

I also thought the idea of having the few loyalists from the traitor legions being inducted into the order, and that their geneseed is still in use was pretty cool. :D

The whole "Chuck Norris" Chaptermaster is a little OTT but that's no big sin in 40k.

I didn't like the whole sacrificing the sisters thing. I still don't get how smearing the blood of innocent Sisters of Battle over their armor would protect them.

mob16151
22-04-2011, 03:29
Can someone Copy Paste the Terminus Decree. I'd kind of like to give it a look see.

Astraeos
22-04-2011, 06:42
The Terminus Decree is the Grey Knights ultimate last resort. Basically the whole idea is "Use this when everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) goes to **** and hope for the best!"

It's described as being the ultimate sanction that could either save the Imperium in it's darkest hour or bring it to it's knees.

The Terminus Decree hidden away in the Chambers of Purity and only a Supreme Grand Master knows how to open it. Physically it's a document written on a piece of old parchment in a simple wooden box sealed by a seal that is apparently only seen elsewhere on the Golden Throne itself. The decree is unrecorded and only the Supreme Grand Master knows of it's existence.
Hmm, and with Draigo currently in the warp going walkabouts....

Hellebore
22-04-2011, 07:21
I'm not sure I see the point of the decree really. I thought that perhaps it was the password to a doomsday weapon, or some kind of activation code.

But if it's literally just a decree on parchment then it's of very limited use. The book already goes into silly detail about how the grey knights can duff over anyone and do what they want to get the job done - they already have the authority to do whatever it is they want to do anyway.

Another piece of authority saying 'you can do even MORE than anything' sounds suspiciously like 'all grey knights are incorruptible - these ones are even more incorruptible than normal'.

I liked the different nemesis weapons.

Hellebore

Vaulkhar
22-04-2011, 07:22
Astraeos: Yeah, best not to think about that last bit too closely.

What did I like...the artwork was pretty decent, the new Terminator minis are gorgeous, den if I'd rather they'd stuck with Latin/High Gothic for the inscriptions.

Everything else....everything else you can (and should) drop in the Emperor's Most Holy Shredder as far as I'm concerned.

theJ
22-04-2011, 07:38
I'm not sure I see the point of the decree really. I thought that perhaps it was the password to a doomsday weapon, or some kind of activation code.


I'd give it a rough 55% chance of being a button, and a 35% chance of being a switch.

Personally, I'm holding out for the switch. Seems a bit more final, somehow :)

Hellebore
22-04-2011, 07:48
I'd give it a rough 55% chance of being a button, and a 35% chance of being a switch.

Personally, I'm holding out for the switch. Seems a bit more final, somehow :)

Like the classic Frankenstein/electric chair lever? Certainly has a certain finality to it. Perhaps it will electrocute the whole galaxy to death?

Hellebore

grayghost
22-04-2011, 07:58
Like the classic Frankenstein/electric chair lever? Certainly has a certain finality to it. Perhaps it will electrocute the whole galaxy to death?

Hellebore

I'll bet it's the Emperor's "Do Not Resusitate" order.

LexxBomb
22-04-2011, 08:19
oh its probably a kill the emperor button letting the star child out thing thus defeating chaos utterly. no one has used it because no one knows for sure if it would work.

Thanatos_elNyx
22-04-2011, 08:19
Agree with grayghost, wasn't that in the old fluff?
That certain members of the =][=, the Illuminati, want to kill the Emperor in order to allow his rebirth.

It had something to do with his illegitimate children, known as the Sensei.

ctsteel
22-04-2011, 08:51
I liked the story of the Blood Angels being approached to assist in fighting Ka'Bandha, with Dante agreeing beforehand that all surviving marines would be mindwiped - not even marines can be trusted with knowledge of chaos. The paranoia has been upped to eleven in this book.

Echo the sentiments above re the Terminus Decree - very cool. My personal speculation - it might release/reanimate the Emperor, perhaps by using a single massive burst of psychic energy pulling in all the astronomican and possibly even all psykers throughout the galaxy who have previously submitted to the soul binding ritual (perhaps a dormant link is waiting to be enacted at the End Time...)

I was also intrigued by the secret of the Purifiers' fortress - there is something under the ground that occasionally causes tremors and sounds. When this occurs the Purifiers close themselves off and all of Titan holds its breath until quiet returns and the Purifiers open their fortress doors again.

The Tessaract energy traps used to trap daemons sound very similar to the Dark Eldar soul traps - there is even mention of relations between the Imperium and the race who created them falling apart and that there may never be any more created - given the escalation apparent in the 5th edition timeline it could relate to the Eldar/Dark Eldar/Imperium becoming more involved in conflict.

On a similar note - the greater daemon that is permanently trapped inside its own skull above the Grey Knights feasting table, kept imprisoned forever while it listens to the GK talk of their victories is quite flavoursome.

Hellebore
22-04-2011, 09:00
On a similar note - the greater daemon that is permanently trapped inside its own skull above the Grey Knights feasting table, kept imprisoned forever while it listens to the GK talk of their victories is quite flavoursome.

Really? Sounds juvenile to me - a pissing contest. And is exactly the opposite of how grey knights were supposed to protect themselves from chaos - by not being prideful boasting douches.

Hellebore

ctsteel
22-04-2011, 09:16
True it does seem...risky. Essentially there are 8 acolytes who are permanently surrounding it chanting binding rituals so it cannot escape. From memory I think this is intended as a more fitting and painful punishment for the daemon's actions - simple banishment would allow it to return to the warp, and being in a tessaract would deny it the torture of observing the world without being able to do anything - the daemon in question committed a great world-killing atrocity of some kind (but then - don't they all?) and this is its punishment it would seem.

As I say it is flavoursome in the new codex however (in the context of them seeming unphased by spilling innocent blood in rituals, having their purest knight carrying the most lethal daemonic weapon into combat against warp incursions (imagine if he was bested in combat - it would be laying at the feet of daemons for the taking!) But the codex seems to emphasise that such is the scale of the threats that the unthinkable must be taken as necessity.

grayghost
22-04-2011, 09:38
As they say, it is worthwhile to kill millions if it saves billions.

Sephiroth
22-04-2011, 10:05
True it does seem...risky. Essentially there are 8 acolytes who are permanently surrounding it chanting binding rituals so it cannot escape.

Didn't they also make a big deal of how they can trap daemons forever in boxes, though? Seems to make the prison less interesting if you can contain a daemon in it's own skull by chanting...

Hellebore
22-04-2011, 11:14
Didn't they also make a big deal of how they can trap daemons forever in boxes, though? Seems to make the prison less interesting if you can contain a daemon in it's own skull by chanting...

This is the sort of thing that I think really ruins this and a lot of previous ward books. The stories can be fine (Chuck Draigo notwithstanding) if the whole thing was more consistent.

It reads like a set of brainstorming notes (with no editing) where an idea was latched onto and then every way it could be done is written in, whether they're consistent or not. Grey Knights are incorruptable - except when they're not. And these ones are more incorruptable than the rest. Greater Deamons and daemon primarchs require a whole company of terminators to take down - except when they don't and a single warrior manages it. It's really difficult to trap deamons - except here and here and here.

The whole skull thing would be more interesting if it wasn't completely undercut by another idea about daemon trapping.

It would be more interesting if it was mounted in the sanctum in which the records of grey knight victories are kept, so it can see as the tally grows rather than listening to them giggle about how much bigger their warp peen is than the daemons they defeated.

The whole ghost terminators thing would be far more interesting if it was a continual psychic wail, almost like a miniature Shadow in the Warp with apparitions of the dead continually floating around him. Wherever whathisname goes, no one can stand to be too close because the guilt he carries manifests as palpable anger and despair. But instead we get superterminatorghostattack!

It's like all these potentially good ideas were thought of but instead of taking them in an interesting direction they've been deliberately turned into inane juvenile silliness.


IMO there are very few ideas that are beyond saving. Many many posters have over the last few months given alternative takes on Draigo, the daemon weapon bound to a grey knight, incorruptability, sorcery and so on. Yet for some unfathomable reason rather than writing something like that we get .... this.

So to answer the OP, I think almost everything in the codex 'went right' in the ideas department - however I think the execution department needs a taste of its own medecine.

Hellebore

KharnTheBetrayer01
22-04-2011, 15:59
So to answer the OP, I think almost everything in the codex 'went right' in the ideas department - however I think the execution department needs a taste of its own medicine.
Hellebore

You know, I was mostly hoping for a bit of positivity on the book along with the masses of hate, but you do seem to have hit the nail on the head. Having yet to read the full book, all I've seen is the individual ideas, and many of them aren't bad in theory, they've just seemed a tad badly written.

It seems some enterprising warseerite could rewrite the lore in this book to make a damn sight more sense while keeping more or less all the ideas and canon (even the rules, though I suppose a great many people have an issue with some of those froma background standpoint as well) changes intact... Not me though, I'm far too lazy.

DeeKay
22-04-2011, 20:14
I'm going to try and inject some positivity into the discussion. Tricky for me, I know...

I like the idea of a unit of Grey Knights sharing parts of a Daemon's true name, giving them a modicum of power over it should they encounter it. That's about it. Everything else about the fluff just reads like badly written fan fiction.

With regards,
Dan.

ryng_sting
23-04-2011, 09:10
I couldn't read the part about the tesseract labryinths without thinking 'light is green, trap is clean.'

Lord Nestron
23-04-2011, 15:58
I really like the brotherhood champion and his I train the young guys. The idea fits the new Knights theme. The rules fit really well to except the 1 wound (which means he has less then paladins even so he is supposed to be over them in rank)

MajorWesJanson
23-04-2011, 16:06
I couldn't read the part about the tesseract labryinths without thinking 'light is green, trap is clean.'

Yep. Just watch out for some Munitorum staffer to come along and try to shut down the system.

Shipmonkey
02-05-2011, 22:26
Yep. Just watch out for some Munitorum staffer to come along and try to shut down the system.

Does the Imperium have an EPA?

MajorWesJanson
02-05-2011, 22:45
Does the Imperium have an EPA?

Environmental Plundering Agency? Sure.


As I think about it and read about it, I'm liking the concept of personal teleporters more and more. Seems like something they developed with help from the Eldar Warp Spiders (who seem like they really ought to get the same sort of rules in the next Eldar dex)

Overlord Krycis
03-05-2011, 10:26
Environmental Plundering Agency? Sure.


As I think about it and read about it, I'm liking the concept of personal teleporters more and more. Seems like something they developed with help from the Eldar Warp Spiders (who seem like they really ought to get the same sort of rules in the next Eldar dex)

*Imagines Warp Spiders with "Shunt"*
*giggles*

I wants me some super-teleporty Eldars!!!1one2!

I actually have quite enjoyed the Grey Knight codex so far (Draigo's background is the exception).

Positive stuff? I love Mordrak(?)'s background and Crowe's too.

And I had the same thought about the tesseract labryinths...now I need backpacks that look like proton packs XD

Polaria
03-05-2011, 12:12
I actually like the basic idea of the fluff, which seems to go along the lines: "There is really no difference between using psychic powers the 'Imperial' way or using them the 'Dark Sorcery' way... Psyker is a Psyker. The only difference is between the willpower of the user."

The second thing I like is the fact that while several Space Marine chapters act 'holier-than-thou' the Grey Knights make no attempt at such. They have the Emperors permission to do anything they damn well like and they seem hell-bent doing it. Wonderfull hubris.

However, I hate the fact that the Codex is written lazily. That means the fluff inside is not consistent with itself. I understand it that the 40K fluff is huge and you can't be expected to double-check against everything written in last 20 year, but I would expect them to double-check against what you just wrote two pages ago in the same codex.... A few examples:

To keep their secrets Grey Knights kill all humans who witness them... They go to the lenghts of actually destroying AdMech listening stations because those listening stations have seen troop transports GK:s destroy because on those troop transports are few IG guys who have seen Grey Knights on Armageddon. Sound like a bit overreacting? Especially when you consider that AdMech has a whole Forge World serving the Grey Knights and must know at least that they exist if nothing else. Then few pages later the Grey Knights go to help a world fight off an ork invasion and leave the whole world and its inhabitants intact to spread stories about "iron defenders". Whats that about?

To keep their secrets Grey Knights mind-wiping all Astartes who witness them... In Armageddon insident Grey Knights want to kill all Imperial Guardsmen who served in Armageddon. Logan Grimnar says no and helps the IGs escape and then goes home showing a big finger to Grey Knights. Okay, next they make a deal with Dante. Dante loans them a few Blood Angels but the angels have to be mind-wiped afterwards... Oh wait! How can they do these deals with chapter masters who are not supposed to know they exist?

MajorWesJanson
04-05-2011, 00:46
To keep their secrets Grey Knights kill all humans who witness them... They go to the lenghts of actually destroying AdMech listening stations because those listening stations have seen troop transports GK:s destroy because on those troop transports are few IG guys who have seen Grey Knights on Armageddon. Sound like a bit overreacting? Especially when you consider that AdMech has a whole Forge World serving the Grey Knights and must know at least that they exist if nothing else. Then few pages later the Grey Knights go to help a world fight off an ork invasion and leave the whole world and its inhabitants intact to spread stories about "iron defenders". Whats that about?

To keep their secrets Grey Knights mind-wiping all Astartes who witness them... In Armageddon insident Grey Knights want to kill all Imperial Guardsmen who served in Armageddon. Logan Grimnar says no and helps the IGs escape and then goes home showing a big finger to Grey Knights. Okay, next they make a deal with Dante. Dante loans them a few Blood Angels but the angels have to be mind-wiped afterwards... Oh wait! How can they do these deals with chapter masters who are not supposed to know they exist?

Like with Inquisitors, a lot of it depends on who is in charge at the time. As for mindwiping and execution and such, it seems to be less about keeping the grey Knights themselves secret, but limiting knowledge of the Daemonic from spreading.

IrishDelinquent
04-05-2011, 07:20
Sorry, but really must speak my peace about the Terminus Decree. Clearly Matt Ward is a fan of a certain Hasbro toy series, and so I'm pretty sure I can predict how the Terminus decree will come into play:

After fighting an honourable duel against his greatest enemy, the Emperor (voiced by Peter Cullen) is struck a savage and mortal blow by the dastardly Horus (aka Megatron). Millenia later, in the face of an all-powerful planet devouring scourge heading right for Earth/Terra, a lowly Supreme Grand Master ("Hot Rod" Draigo) uses the power of the Terminus Matrix to light mankind's darkest hour, become the new Emperor, and defeat the Tyranids (Unicron).

Sorry, Transformers-fan gushing over. All in all, I like the new direction that the Grey Knights have gone towards. In a galactic battle against a numberless foe, the Grey Knights do anything they can to defeat their foes....ANYTHING! And, with eight different houses or groups or sects of Grey Knights, each group has their own way of taking care of business. My personal favourite of the fluff, though, has to be the inquisitors. Whether its Coteaz running his own little Formosa Mafia, Karamizov playing an even surlier Judge Judy, or Valeria trying to be the very best (like no one ever was), the Inquisitors seem (appropriately) more human.

Carlosophy
04-05-2011, 08:42
i'm probably the only person who thought the vast majority of the book was awesome - over the top and totally 40k. most of the fluff has had precedents in previous editions of the game, so i can't help but feel a lot of people are just being swept up with a popular consensus.

QFMFT

Although im not a massive fan of the idea of GK as an army due to their limited numbers and specialised opponents (would they really fight Tau or Necrons?) much like the Guard book, they really brought through the 'Imperialness'. I liked all the fluff TBH. Draigo is a character ripped straight from 1st edition and the 'Nights of the round table' theme is great.

I particularly love the inclusion of Karamazov and his ability to nuke his own guys, in CLOSE COMBAT! Valeria sucks but its nice to see the OX get some love.

My favourite part is the inquisition though. Why do an army of silver marines when you could let your imagination go mental and make a henchman army with whatever models you want!

Bold_or_Stupid
04-05-2011, 11:24
Sorry, but really must speak my peace about the Terminus Decree. Clearly Matt Ward is a fan of a certain Hasbro toy series, and so I'm pretty sure I can predict how the Terminus decree will come into play:

After fighting an honourable duel against his greatest enemy, the Emperor (voiced by Peter Cullen) is struck a savage and mortal blow by the dastardly Horus (aka Megatron). Millenia later, in the face of an all-powerful planet devouring scourge heading right for Earth/Terra, a lowly Supreme Grand Master ("Hot Rod" Draigo) uses the power of the Terminus Matrix to light mankind's darkest hour, become the new Emperor, and defeat the Tyranids (Unicron).


As some one who rewatched the true Transformers movie this week this plot idea seems very cool...

MagosHereticus
05-05-2011, 12:22
i think more should have been done in regards to auditing contamination of guardsmen, space marines and civilians (with a grading scale of some sort), so that we have a flexible explanation as to why sometimes a whole world needs to be destroyed because of a minor warp breach and at other times a daemon infested planet is purged and everyone lives happily ever after

would have made for a nice excuse, and made plots involving daemons more consistent and flexible

theJ
05-05-2011, 12:53
i think more should have been done in regards to auditing contamination of guardsmen, space marines and civilians (with a grading scale of some sort), so that we have a flexible explanation as to why sometimes a whole world needs to be destroyed because of a minor warp breach and at other times a daemon infested planet is purged and everyone lives happily ever after

would have made for a nice excuse, and made plots involving daemons more consistent and flexible

Or a simple return to the old version, where it was the Inquisition who burned world, and since Inquisitors are highly individualistic, it makes sense that they would deem the "severity" of warp incursions differently.
Having the Grey Knights in a "servant" role suddenly has the greatly varying "code of conduct" make a lot more sense.

Anyways, this thread was supposed to be about the "good" aspects of the new book, so let's get back on subject, shall we?

One of the things I rather liked was the idea of "subgroups" within the knights. The ones they had (Paladins, Purifiers, etc.) were rather crude, but the idea was an interesting one (and one I've sorta included in the fandexy writeup thingy I'm working on :shifty:).

Nkari
08-05-2011, 13:35
I loved the bit about them locking up Daemons with technology in cubes. It in fact represents a splinter of hope of a final solution to chaos, even if so far they've only reduced the daemonic threat by a miniscule fraction it's still something so the situation is not entirely hopeless. In fact they even captured a greater daemon which is pretty amazing.



Que Ghostbusters intro.. =) love it..

Void Reaper
08-05-2011, 15:11
I didn't much care for Ward's writing ("braying hordes held at bay"...ugh...), but I like most of the fluff concepts in the book. Ghost marines, Titan being hidden in the warp, and the ruthlessness of the Knights were all pretty cool.

Casey Colt
08-05-2011, 18:15
No one book is ever totally bad.Not even when Games Workshop are in control.

This thread is for the moments of fluff you like, enjoy reading or think fit the Grey Knights.

For me, one of the entries I managed to read instore, having not bought the book yet, impressed me. A World brought to ruin by the Changelings machinations and aided by the Grey Knights. Some of the Populace is saved, but Changeling is nowhere to be seen, and it seems his energy can be read offworld (they can do that?). TO avoid him escaping onboard the civilian ships, the leader of this Grey Knigth quest has his Battlebarge take out all the Civilian ships. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that. Lovely.

A prime example of the ends justifies the means an idea which the Imperium rather jubilantly embraces. Problems do arise in the stagnated and often convoluted code of ethics by which the power relationship of those in question choose to follow. I'm looking at you, Sensei. Does it seem weird to anybody else that the Grey Knights want to eliminate the Emperors Children on the grounds that they COULD be tainted? Given that they are one of humanities' only hopes and the blessed true children of the emperor..

Anyways Grey Knights are cool whatevs

alcarothar
10-05-2011, 20:43
As a mainly Eldar player (but iŽve been waiting this dex for a long time) i like the fact that doesnŽt exist the "And Draigo kills a dozen of Avatars of Khaine only with his sight" , also, i like the part when purifiers fight NŽkari in Malanthai and have set a permanent guard of purifiers until a new Eldar contact who can pick up the spirit stones. Too many hints about a pretty close allience with eldar IMHO...

[lexus]
11-05-2011, 10:59
To keep their secrets Grey Knights kill all humans who witness them... They go to the lenghts of actually destroying AdMech listening stations because those listening stations have seen troop transports GK:s destroy because on those troop transports are few IG guys who have seen Grey Knights on Armageddon. Sound like a bit overreacting? Especially when you consider that AdMech has a whole Forge World serving the Grey Knights and must know at least that they exist if nothing else. Then few pages later the Grey Knights go to help a world fight off an ork invasion and leave the whole world and its inhabitants intact to spread stories about "iron defenders". Whats that about?
Its not to hard to actually explain that. I think they like to keep it a secret what they normally do, which is to combat chaos. Its stated a few times that only a relatively small number of people in the Imperium know about Chaos, the warp, and in some cases even FTL travel. Most people are kept in blissful ignorance, lest they get corrupted by knowing to much. In case of the Ork world defense thing, they werent actually there hunting chaos, they were killing Orks. So, they seemed like any regular Space Marine chapter, which is for most Imperial citizens a mystical group of divine warrior that come to execute the Emperors will. Its not like they know about all the different chapters and how they look like. So there was no reason to kill these people, as they probably would never know about the GK true purpose.


To keep their secrets Grey Knights mind-wiping all Astartes who witness them... In Armageddon insident Grey Knights want to kill all Imperial Guardsmen who served in Armageddon. Logan Grimnar says no and helps the IGs escape and then goes home showing a big finger to Grey Knights. Okay, next they make a deal with Dante. Dante loans them a few Blood Angels but the angels have to be mind-wiped afterwards... Oh wait! How can they do these deals with chapter masters who are not supposed to know they exist?
Chapter Masters are probably one of the few that do know about their existence, as they tend to know a lot more then your average Imperial citizen and even Space Marine. I think that the GK can tolerate it if a few select individuals in the highest reaches of the Imperial and Space Marine hierachy know of their existence. That cant be said for normal Space Marines.

I suppose it could have been explained better.

LexxBomb
11-05-2011, 23:55
its just the re-emergence of 2nd ed background material. back then all guardsmen who fought demons were executed and marines were mind wiped because of their cost to manufacture.

Brother Fenix
12-05-2011, 00:55
Great book for the Grey Knights. Hence it's name. I liked the opening about the first 12, seemed to align itself with the HH books, which seems to be the direction most of the "early" fluff is heading. Even if it contradicts earlier details in other books, it seems like GW and the BL are on the same page and working toward an overall story that will fit together from now on.

Drego, cool character. Thawn, I liked him as well, "waiting for them at the airlock."

Inquisitors being included in this book made sense with the opening story, however....
I was disappointed with the army list as it relates to the inquisition. I understand this is CODEX GREY KNIGHTS, not CODEX INQUISITION, but I feel like they lost all of their identity as an army.

Inquisitors are now a Grey Knights army with an inquisitor in it.

I would have like to have seen inquisitorial storm troopers, as troops choices. With the option to include additional heavy weapons and be HS, or take deep strike and become FA. It makes sense to me that Inquisitors have the authority to use any troops at their disposal, and I think it would have been to far afield for them to add IG troops, but I think adding ST would have satisfied me, in filling out them as a viable army variant. I realize GW isn't out to satisfy me, but just my 2 cents.

madprophet
12-05-2011, 00:59
its just the re-emergence of 2nd ed background material. back then all guardsmen who fought demons were executed and marines were mind wiped because of their cost to manufacture.

Pretty much, merely seeing the GK in action isn't enough because most IG don't know an Ultramarine from a Celestial Lion - an Astarte is an Astarte is an Astarte. It's exposure to the demonic that is the risk.:chrome:

Even fighting the minions of Chaos like Chaos Marines, Traitors, Mutants or even the Dark Eldar isn't enough. Only exposure to the demonic is enough, since demons can warp people's minds - even their bodies - with the most casual contact. :evilgrin:

ryng_sting
15-05-2011, 11:16
Odd that the GK aren't massacring/mind-wiping troops on Cadia left right and centre, isn't it...?

Nomrana Est
15-05-2011, 20:52
Odd that the GK aren't massacring/mind-wiping troops on Cadia left right and centre, isn't it...?

Well, I'm guessing that the discipline of the Cadian military is probably so formidable, and they can detect a deamonic enitity, that they just get the job done themselves, although I'd expect the major incursions are resisted by the GK.

I liked many of the ideas of the GK 'dex, just the way it was written that rubbed me the wrong way. Draigo's pointless crusade in the warp, Crowe's guardianship of one of the most coruppting influences in the universe, Thawn's unusual immortality and Mordrak's guilty secrets. They could have been written better than they were, but they also could have been written far, far worse.

SgtTaters
16-05-2011, 02:41
Draigo's pointless crusade in the warp

It's part of the mystic, knightly image of the Grey Knights. Reading that fluff it played out like those olde english tapestries. This also puts Draigo closer to the mythical founders of the space marines, like Russ and the biker guy who both disappeared mysteriously on a one man crusade.

Plus he's Samurai Jack, so that's pretty cool.



Crowe's guardianship of one of the most coruppting influences in the universe
Right, and the knightly Incorruptibility of Crowe is the only thing that can keep it sealed. He then wields it as an ordinary sword. Crowe is not the first and is not the last, he is the current guardian of this accursed sword.

At least they make a big deal out of it. For comparison, the space wolf guy with a chaos axe wields it in such a casual manner that I don't think it's even mentioned in his 5e fluff.



Thawn's unusual immortality
whose the image of a Gallahad-like knightly Purity.



and Mordrak's guilty secrets

the grand master's tortured sense of knightly devotion to his men and his vow to put their souls to rest with the defeat of Huron.

I like all of the Grey Knights characters, they all feel distinct from one another and each enhance the flavor of Grey Knights as a whole.



I would have like to have seen inquisitorial storm troopers, as troops choices. With the option to include additional heavy weapons and be HS, or take deep strike and become FA. It makes sense to me that Inquisitors have the authority to use any troops at their disposal, and I think it would have been to far afield for them to add IG troops, but I think adding ST would have satisfied me, in filling out them as a viable army variant. I realize GW isn't out to satisfy me, but just my 2 cents.

You can field ST's with 3 special weapons, you can field ST's with storm bolters and boltguns and hotshots. These storm troopers can ride in rhinos, chimeras, and razorbacks with psybolt ammunition. You can even field the old 2e plastic troopers without carapace, because these rules allow for flak armored Troopers. You can even field suppression shield, power sword wielding storm troopers if you'd like.
They're under the Warrior Acolyte umbrella. They are bs3, that's the difference. They have a gameplay change, their fluff remains exactly the same and the modeling oppertunities have dramatically increased.
If you were to take your current storm trooper models and field them in a GK army, we would all know exactly what rules set represents them. You can still field ST's in an Inquisitorial army.

MajorWesJanson
16-05-2011, 02:48
Odd that the GK aren't massacring/mind-wiping troops on Cadia left right and centre, isn't it...?

Well, most the time the troops in question are purged after the sucessful operation. Cadia gets a pass since it is constantly at war, as the gatekeeper of the eye.

Brother Fenix
18-05-2011, 03:02
You can field ST's with 3 special weapons, you can field ST's with storm bolters and boltguns and hotshots. These storm troopers can ride in rhinos, chimeras, and razorbacks with psybolt ammunition. You can even field the old 2e plastic troopers without carapace, because these rules allow for flak armored Troopers. You can even field suppression shield, power sword wielding storm troopers if you'd like.
They're under the Warrior Acolyte umbrella. They are bs3, that's the difference. They have a gameplay change, their fluff remains exactly the same and the modeling oppertunities have dramatically increased.
If you were to take your current storm trooper models and field them in a GK army, we would all know exactly what rules set represents them. You can still field ST's in an Inquisitorial army.

True, but I can't field them exclusively as a Inquisitorial ST without taking Coteaz (which I am one of those people that has a beef about taking special characters). Even taking two Inquisitors as HQ, I can only have two squads of henchmen. I still must have Gray Knights in my inquisition force. Again, I understand that the title on the front of the Codex says, "Gray Knights"

I still go back to the point that they referenced the 4 original inquisitors in opening of the book. 1/3 of the start of Malcador's project. They certainly didn't receive 1/3 of the attention.

Lord-Caerolion
18-05-2011, 05:03
Inquisitors being included in this book made sense with the opening story, however....
I was disappointed with the army list as it relates to the inquisition. I understand this is CODEX GREY KNIGHTS, not CODEX INQUISITION, but I feel like they lost all of their identity as an army.

Inquisitors are now a Grey Knights army with an inquisitor in it.

I would have like to have seen inquisitorial storm troopers, as troops choices. With the option to include additional heavy weapons and be HS, or take deep strike and become FA. It makes sense to me that Inquisitors have the authority to use any troops at their disposal, and I think it would have been to far afield for them to add IG troops, but I think adding ST would have satisfied me, in filling out them as a viable army variant. I realize GW isn't out to satisfy me, but just my 2 cents.

Personally, I'm glad the Inquisition doesn't have a codex. They operate from the shadows. They do investigation and organise purges. The vast majority of them don't wander around with a private army, looking for heretics to burn. In my mind, they'd work best if done like the old codex:Assassins, where every Imperial army can take them.

Hrogoff the Destructor
18-05-2011, 20:20
I’ve always thought the Ghost Knights were somewhat interesting (not because of their unit entry which I haven’t read for some reason). Why?

Well, there were real Ghost Knights. I don’t remember exactly where they came from, but they protected a single castle. Underneath the castle was a series of underground passages leading to the surrounding forest. If the castle was under siege they would use those passageways to perform guerilla and ambush attacks. They would then retreat back into the hidden passageways.

To the enemy these knights seemingly came out of nowhere before disappearing into thin air, kind of like the unit. They were nicknamed the Ghost Knights as a result.

I’m guessing they are a coincidence however.

jeffersonian000
18-05-2011, 21:29
What I liked the most about the new 'Dex is that the Grey Knights use super-science and technology to defeat the supernatural. Their rituals are performed with the percision of an engineering equation, they understand that there is no difference between the powers of the mind and the powers of the warp, and go forth with the cold knowledge of science as their guilde for turning back the dark tide of chaos.

That said, 40k as fantasy in a future setting, not hard science fiction. Everything the Grey Knights do is shrouded in mystery, mythology, and legend. What they see as a complex set of equations that need to be performed to close a breach on the fabric of reality, others will see as a sorcerous ritual steeped in the blood of virgins that calls down the might of the warp to push back the daemons and close their portal to hell.

A lot of the inconsistencies we see can also be explained in this way. The need to mindwipe/kill the witnesses while allow others that remember/survive to reenforce the mythology and legends of their existence. Grey Knights are the Men in Black of 40k. Everyone has heard something, but no one knows anything.

From their point of view, we see Knights like Mordrak, who are almost overcome by the supernatural when it benefits him rather than being something he fights with reason, as reason cannot explain the ghosts that come to his add despite everything he knows to be true. We have Thawn, who for no known reason just cannot die, despite all of the science and super-science the Grey Knights possess. We have Crowe, who actively chooses to wield a weapon that should not even exist, but because he does he can continue to overcome the other things in his world-view that should not exist. We have Stern, who's focus on the rational is so strong, his enemies actually gain the benefits his will power, because Stern's mental fortitude is so strong his will effects reality in his location. And we have Draigo, who like Stern has a will so strong he carries the materium with him in his warp-exile, making him both unconquerable by the warp and unable to truly escape the warp because his mind has created a pocket universe that bubbles him from everything include time, matter, and chaos itself.

Grey Knights, by my read, are the pinnacle of human science and technology in an age of magic, daemons, and the decay of knowledge.

SJ

theJ
19-05-2011, 07:59
@jeffersonian000:

um... that's some really interesting stuff, but weren't we discussing what was actually in the codex rather than what we'd like to put in it?

grayghost
20-05-2011, 14:09
I'm keen on the fact the Grey Knights are aware of the immortality of their enemy and seek to imprison them, rather then banish them. I especially like the childish spite they demonstrate to that one demon they force to watch their victory parties.

Nerak
20-05-2011, 22:17
What went right huh....

I'm having problems with this thread. I picked up codex grey knights and read through it. At first I thought it was awesome. Then, a few pages later, the feeling started dissapearing and suddenly I was left with the thought "....this actually was as bad as I imagined".

Alright, on to the topic, what did it actually get right?

* Making the Grey knights the best units in the galaxy. They are (arguably) supposed to be and now they have stats and stuff that supports it.

* The fluff about the founding. I can accept it, after some looking up and timeline study. It doesen't take a genius to suspect the names of some of the first Grey Knights.

* Purifiers. Altough I can ONLY accept theese guys if they are either senseis or Blanks. I've already given it considerable thought on how usefull either of these special psykers (in lack of a better term) would be to either Astartes, Inquisitorial or really any military organisation. So that the Grey knights have squads of theese kinds of super/anti psykers makes perfect sense.
If they are neither blanks or senseis then they are just dumb.

* Justicar Thawn. The story about a guy who keeps rising from the dead and no one knows why is just plain awesome. You don't know if it's from some incredibly dark reason, because of his experiences before joining the GK or if this particular guy happens to be a loophole in reality. I know it's a bit silly but it's pretty epic too. Mostly because with most special characters I always get the "why's this guy even alive? He should have died long ago" feeling and here's a character completly without that problem.

Now those are the things I truly felt okay with. Now there is one thing I must get off my chest because it's been bugging me like hell.
Radicals. Puritans. Grey Knights=Puritans beyond peer. Radicals=deamon consultants. Puritan VS Radical= Grey knights vs Deamons.
Why, OH WHY can you have deamonweapons and deamonhosts with the grey knights? Is it just me or is this codex leaning more towards the radicals being the "good guys?" where all previous fluff has stated that "Purtians are good, radicals are bad" (altough in a much more complicated manner). I don't accept it at all.
Sorry for this being off topic. Just had to get it off my chest.

GreyishKnight
21-05-2011, 23:00
At first I was adverse to the the idea of Grey Knights and Inquisitors cooperating with alien but it's grown on me tremendously. That they go ignore the typical, xenophobic dogma of the Imperium, and act with a right to do so as long as it betters humanity shows a unique authority and pragmatism that brings the fluff an new dimension.



* Making the Grey knights the best units in the galaxy. They are (arguably) supposed to be and now they have stats and stuff that supports it.

Eh? What, with the new, average MEQ profiles? The HQs were just two editions behind, back then each of the generic SM leaders had WS5. So really they were just bringing them back in line with how they were. As for the troops, quite frankly I miss WS5 all-round. I don't miss S6 so much as force weapons/hammerhand replaced this but the higher WS was indicative of personal skill. So, in fact with this edition the standard Grey Knight has actually received a profile nerfing.

EDIT - Grammar.

Wyrmwood
22-05-2011, 00:54
The thing with Grimnar's Axe, is that it could have beloned to a renegade/traitor Astartes not necessarily alligned with the Ruinous Powers. Any Space Marine that turns his back on the Emperor/Imperium is generally described by the Imperial forces as a Chaos something or other. The power, or lack thereof, was never stated and so it's only really assumed that the Axe was a heavily corrupted artifact. Besides, the 13th Company and the Raven Guard on Istvaan V looted armour from Fallen Astartes and they're not corrupted... Right?

Besides, even if whatever the thing was - it's just ocurred to me that it doesn't even mention whether or not it was a Space Marine -, happened to be corrupted - it doesn't mean that the weapon it wielded also was, or to a great enough degree that the Wolf and Rune Priests couldn't consecrate it.

Hellebore
22-05-2011, 01:16
The thing with Grimnar's Axe, is that it could have beloned to a renegade/traitor Astartes not necessarily alligned with the Ruinous Powers. Any Space Marine that turns his back on the Emperor/Imperium is generally described by the Imperial forces as a Chaos something or other. The power, or lack thereof, was never stated and so it's only really assumed that the Axe was a heavily corrupted artifact. Besides, the 13th Company and the Raven Guard on Istvaan V looted armour from Fallen Astartes and they're not corrupted... Right?

Besides, even if whatever the thing was - it's just ocurred to me that it doesn't even mention whether or not it was a Space Marine -, happened to be corrupted - it doesn't mean that the weapon it wielded also was, or to a great enough degree that the Wolf and Rune Priests couldn't consecrate it.

No, the original description said:



The Axe Morkai was taken by Space Wolf Commander Logan Grimnar from a defeated Champion of Khorne, and it is imbued with the brutal power of that bloodthirsty god. The Axe was reforged by the Space Wolves' Iron Priests and engraved with the two heads of Morkai, guardian wolf of the Gates of Death.


Hellebore

Wyrmwood
22-05-2011, 06:23
Retcon

Eugh, my mistake. Then it's good that has been quietly ignored... :shifty:

ghost21
22-05-2011, 09:47
Draigo = Samurai Jack

Hahaha, epic anology dude.

I see him almost as a 40k version of Gotrek myself.

no hes not Gotrek, Gotrek has to atone for what hes done, Draigo seems to roundhouse kick everything to death

i liked cortez, the history, but carving initials into hearts n the sisters thing i kinda ignore .... oh and dreadknights (weez zo special we have stuff admechs know nuffink about) seriously :wtf:

Lexington
23-05-2011, 22:24
I'm actually fond of the demise of radical/puritain Inquisitor divisions, which I always found to be very forced - Inquisitorial factions aren't publicly-declared "Houses" or anything. They're rough philosophies that are filtered through the perceptions of some wildly divergent individuals. The expansion of possibilities in the Inquisitorial Retinues is nice, too, as it allows those of us who like to explore the Imperium's weirder side have something to set our creative urges loose on.

Everything else in the book is a farce of writing, and it's easily the worst thing Games Workshop's ever published.

Lord-Caerolion
23-05-2011, 23:15
They might not be that rigid, but there's still a massive divide between them. I'm more happy we're finally moving away from "Radicalism can only = Xanthism! There are no other Radical factions!"
The way it had previously been done was incredibly forced, making out all Radicals to be something they're not, when in the background it made far more sense. Amalathians hate Recongregators, Monodominants hate everyone, Libricar hate everyone, Istvaanians don't really care and everyone hates Xanthites.

Nazguire
24-05-2011, 06:34
Anyone have a link to the Inquisition document that details all the different factions???

I generally enjoy fleshing out of any and all new background, especially for background-sparse factions like the Grey Knights. I do think that the Inquisition will need their own Codex or such in the future. There is a wealth of things that can be done with them, and with GW unwilling to invest in games such as Inquisitor, the only way we can actually see expansion in arguably one of the coolest factions in the 40k universe.

The only things (I haven't read the Codex mind you, so my opinion isn't that well informed) that I dislike about the Grey Knights Codex is Draigo' background, and how the division between sorcery and psychic powers has been completely ignored.

As has already been stated, which I don't want to argue about again, the Thousand Sons were destroyed by the Space Wolves/Custodes/Sisters of Silence for practicing sorcery. Yet the Grey Knights are all cool to do it? Sorcery has been constantly described as blood rites, daemonic pacts, etc, and is denounced as a sign of Chaos, yet the Grey Knights are ok in using it? When surely they can see the difference between the two???

Lord-Caerolion
24-05-2011, 07:09
Take a look at the Dark Heresy book, although for more indepth information, you should take a look at the Thorian Sourcebook, the Dark Heresy book, and for info on the Radical factions, you can't go past the Radicals Handbook. Of course, the INQ rulebook is handy, but only gives about a paragraph on each faction, so it's only a basic overview.

Personally, I really like the fact that for once it isn't a division between "Good" and "Evil", but rather "Accepted belief" and "disliked/near-heretical belief". For example, Thorianism (a faction believing that the Emperor will reincarnate, and so look out for potential "Divine Avatars", like Sebastian Thor, who they took their name from, or even attempting to create such a host) was once counted amongst the darkest of Radical factions, despite not actually changing all that much in its beliefs. Why did it become Puritan rather than Radical? They got a figurehead in Sebastian Thor, and everyone started thinking "hey, this reincarnated Emperor thing might not actually be all that bad!"
Subsequently, Istvaanianism (faction that believes the Imperium grows stronger through warfare, and seeks to strengthen the military and/or create warfare whereever they go) is largely similar to the Puritan doctrine of Monodominism (burn them all, the Emperor will know his own!), so it's been said to be beginning a move towards Puritanism, and losing its Radicalist definition.

Lexington
24-05-2011, 11:53
They might not be that rigid, but there's still a massive divide between them. I'm more happy we're finally moving away from "Radicalism can only = Xanthism! There are no other Radical factions!"
That's the unfortunate result of trying to shoehorn factions into game rules, I think. The Xanthites were the easiest ones to represent, so they became the defining "Radical" belief. Harder to do with something like the Istavaanians.

Personally, I never did like the clean definition and easy parallels of the factions, and would rather see them dropped altogether. It comes off as too pat for such strong-willed individuals to all divide themselves into easily-identifiable camps like that. Same thing with the Ordos - it was much more interesting, to me when there were just Inquisitors and a single sub-sect who specifically worked to weed out the daemonic.

Hellebore
24-05-2011, 11:59
Well I agree somewhat, however you see in intellectual circles different 'schools of thought' that have their adherents. Politicians and high level beauraucrats also have their schools of thought that they belong to. In politics these are generally divided along party lines.

IMO it adds realism and versimilitude that there are different schools of thought in the inquistion. Perhaps not as rigid as the political party 'istvaanian' style, but it rings true to me that there would be inquisitors that subscribe to the same school of thought and that they would give that a label, even if it wasn't as concrete as we are shown.

Hellebore

Corbeau
25-05-2011, 13:06
Personally, I never did like the clean definition and easy parallels of the factions, and would rather see them dropped altogether. It comes off as too pat for such strong-willed individuals to all divide themselves into easily-identifiable camps like that. Same thing with the Ordos - it was much more interesting, to me when there were just Inquisitors and a single sub-sect who specifically worked to weed out the daemonic.

Likewise, I like the idea of differing beliefs and approaches, but not so clear cut.
I just modify the fluff for our games. Simple.