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View Full Version : Dealing with the Hellpit without fire.



Shimmergloom
22-04-2011, 22:01
If you had no fire in your army, how would you deal with things like the hellpit, hydra, regening bunkers or regen type units in general using orcs and goblins?

Surgency
22-04-2011, 22:33
poisoned attacks... lots of them

theunwantedbeing
22-04-2011, 22:43
Poison, hoardes, big'uns, Rock Lobba's, Stone throwers, Squigs, Chariots....

Dante blackfur
22-04-2011, 22:52
"THe more the Merryier" is what U use, if you got 40+ attacks against it, you are probabaly going to get 2-4 wounds per combat turn. just keep mobbing it :)

ftayl5
22-04-2011, 23:00
I'd either try to just spam it with heaps of shots or attacks or something, it'll die eventually. Or I'd just throw 50 Goblins at it and hold it up while I destroy it's army. 'Course that's easier said than done, but that's the plan.

Caitsidhe
22-04-2011, 23:03
You don't. You take the 10pt Banner of Eternal Flame. There really is no reason or excuse to ever come to the table without that Banner on one of your units. :) It is ONLY 10pts. The value gained if you face Regeneration cannot be calculated. The loss if you don't is still only 10pts. Take the damn banner.

Surgency
23-04-2011, 00:07
Storm Banner, Under Empire, and Plague banner are 3 good reasons to not take Eternal Flame :p

GodlessM
23-04-2011, 00:14
"THe more the Merryier" is what U use, if you got 40+ attacks against it, you are probabaly going to get 2-4 wounds per combat turn. just keep mobbing it :)

And what unit can throw out 40 attacks against such a small frontage as a HPA or Hydra?

Surgency
23-04-2011, 02:16
death frenzied plague monks? Horde elf spearmen with frenzy?

papabearshane
23-04-2011, 02:24
100 NGS with 5 Big Bosses in it with Great Weps and the Terror mask. Ive chopped 3 down 5 times in one game with O&Gs. Even Killed one with Pumpwagon hits then a lucky snotling attack took the last wound.

GodlessM
23-04-2011, 02:57
death frenzied plague monks? Horde elf spearmen with frenzy?

Death Frenzied Plague Monks in horde still only get 30 attacks against the Abomination and 24 attacks against the Hydra, and Elf Spearmen from either army don't have access to Frenzy.

macdaddy_o
23-04-2011, 03:04
Depends on your army. A unit that cannot be stomped, has high AS, etc, can be good. In my lizard army, I use skrox units. 9 S6 attacks, and cannot be stomped.

In my beast army, I can't really take the flaming banner, so I rely on an ungor block holding it up for a while, a pit of shades, or a character with savage beast(6 S8 rerollable attacks), or a mountain chimera.

papabearshane
23-04-2011, 03:05
The OP is asking how to deal with it with O&Gs so I dont think Elfs or Rats will do.

GodlessM
23-04-2011, 03:08
The OP is asking how to deal with it with O&Gs so I dont think Elfs or Rats will do.

Read the post (i.e. mine) that Surgency is replying to. He is well aware of the topic of the thread considering he was the first to answer it.

Surgency
23-04-2011, 03:54
I was thinking 60 attacks for DF plague monks, but thats if they manage to charge the flank... So I suppose Death Frenzied Plague Monks buffed with Filth should do it, probably 1 turn, as long as they hit the flank :p

And yes, I'm aware of the topic, papabearshane, considering I suggested lots of poison attacks, something that O&G DO have access to. I don't think I need to be specific and mention which units get poison... at least I hope not ;)

russellmoo
23-04-2011, 04:15
Drop rocks on the head of those monsters- they might fail that 4+ sv and they will lose a lot of wounds-

Against the 4+ regen horde- you're going to have to tarpit the unit

A better idea is to include in your list some form of flaming attacks- even if you don't want the banner of eternal flame (why you wouldn't be running this baffles me) but you also can give someone the Ruby Ring- or while not a guarantee but is fun- the Wizards hat (you might then get access to a spell with fire) Unfortunately this seems to be an O&G weakness- we have little access to flaming attacks-

Shimmergloom
23-04-2011, 06:01
Greenskins don't have a lot of access to magical banners outside of cav and black orcs or the bsb.

Orc big'uns are not worth it vs savage big'uns who can't take a banner.

So most of the time, that leaves me with putting it on a bsb and having the bsb being vulnerable to dying easy or not having fire at all.

Nocculum
23-04-2011, 10:15
A Goblin Warboss with the Wizard's 'At and Lore of Fire?

Lord_Byron
23-04-2011, 11:15
Savage orc boar boyz with the flaming banner. That's a lot of high strength hits on a platform fast enough to pick its fights, and as a bonus it can't get thunderstomped by monsters. Against a bunker combo-charge the boar boyz with something else and make sure to take the BB attacks first if you can.

drear
23-04-2011, 13:51
id go with 10 boarboyz with the flaming banner and sheilds/spears, hitting on str 5 , and attacks off teh boars all flaming should deal with it, and its only got a few attacks with no stomp back.
if you have a hero in there with anything killy you will do well.

Kevlar
23-04-2011, 14:43
And what unit can throw out 40 attacks against such a small frontage as a HPA or Hydra?

Bret knights in a lance bus?

w3rm
23-04-2011, 17:13
Without fire.... Just keep bogging it down with night goblins.

Morkash
23-04-2011, 17:33
The Hydra is not the problem. It will lose one or two life from shooting if you roll average (Doom Divers), hit close combat, killing a few (or a few more) of your guys but then it will either die or lose more life. Good thing is, it only has 5 wounds!
HPA is more serious. It causes a horrid amount of damage, so either you bog it down in many, many night goblins or you try to hit it with Mangler Squigs. The latter ones have a good chance of inflicting a few wounds on it!

Black Orcs with Flaming Banner are another good counter, but they will lose a few (or very many against the HPA) bodies in order to kill the monster.

Don Zeko
03-05-2011, 05:20
Against a Hellpit I don't think that it's really worth discussing ranked infantry as counters. Unless you can really flood the board with dudes, the charge arc-free HPA will get to pick its fights most of the time against infantry, meaning that it won't charge those flaming attacks black orcs unless the Skaven player is feeling very nice (or very lucky). So I think your best bet here are things that can catch it: fanatics, mangler squigs, wolf chariots, savage orc boar boyz with the BoEF, rock lobbas, etc.

magicmonkey
04-05-2011, 22:01
well my friend runs a hellpit in every game. i just use skinks (either skrox or blowpipes) to kill it. th regen hoard is a jod for either lore of fire, banner of eternal flame, or some other flaming weapons.i think either metal or fire has a flaming sword spell, so you can give it to whoevers fighting the regen people. as for hellpit, it seems suggested O&G have much poison. any light but plenty poison shooting, or a small poison hoard (not recommended that thing takes out 10+ guys a turn, plus impact and stomp) and that should knock it down too a manageable size, presuming it doesnt come back too life, you should be fine.

electors champion
05-05-2011, 16:20
i'd be careful taking boar boys with BoEF that thing has I4 and it will murder your unit virtually completely unless you have 15 boar boys there. true some guys will be left but i doubt you'll kill it and then you'll get run down or atleast not come back. id have to side with big NG unit with a hero or 2 with GW in and run it down with attrition if possible. even then the damn thing can go where it likes and charge where it wants so your gonna have to be clever with manoeuvring or just tempt him into the charge.

russellmoo
06-05-2011, 05:42
I like the idea of boar boyz with the Banner of Eternal Flame, but with the addition of either Gorbad, or an orc warlord set up to kill things- maybe Battle axe of the last Waaagh, or Sword of Bloodshed- that should be enough to see off a monster-

Don Zeko
06-05-2011, 05:47
For one, magic weapons don't benefit from the banner of eternal flame. For two, an 800 point unit to kill a 235 point monster is not a solution. I can kit out a dragonrider that will kill that thing easily, but that's a small consolation when the skaven player's other hellpit and his doomwheel, all of which add up to about the cost of my dragonrider, are wrecking the rest of my army. So all of this is to say that knights with the BoEF, magic, artillery (especially flaming artillery) and shadow magic + bowfire are your best bets.

decker_cky
06-05-2011, 17:30
Greenskins don't have a lot of access to magical banners outside of cav and black orcs or the bsb.

Orc big'uns are not worth it vs savage big'uns who can't take a banner.

So most of the time, that leaves me with putting it on a bsb and having the bsb being vulnerable to dying easy or not having fire at all.

You've just posted the reason why big'uns can be better than savage big'uns. If you don't have black orcs, having the flaming banner somewhere is an important tool against certain armies.

popisdead
06-05-2011, 23:47
50 Night Goblins with bows and the poisoned banner, characteristic tests (Azhag has Lore of Death, drop Purple Sun on it, that is if the Init is low on the HPA), there are ways around these things, you just have to find them.

Von Wibble
07-05-2011, 21:14
Death Frenzied Plague Monks in horde still only get 30 attacks against the Abomination and 24 attacks against the Hydra, and Elf Spearmen from either army don't have access to Frenzy.

Cauldron of Blood is effectively the same as frenzy for DE spearmen. Though its very rare you'd use it for that of course.

Surely the best way to counter a HPA is to kill it before it attacks. War Machines, fanatics, mangler squigs and fanatics.

Or maybe an orc warboss with impact hit armour on a chariot.

isanti13
08-05-2011, 01:31
Played against it today with my Orcs... Savage Orc Big Uns put 5 wounds on it in one round.... gotta love flanks :)

decker_cky
09-05-2011, 01:34
By the way, the boar boyz might be a decent option for the banner of flame, when joined by a big boss with a mundane weapon (likely a spear). 3 WS6 S6 attacks should be enough to remove regeneration before the rest of your infantry attacks.

Holy_Combat
09-05-2011, 03:59
O&G use trolls. Blocks of 3x2 gives 6 vomit attacks, which hit automatically. With troll regeneration, they can tie up the HPA and whittle it down.

Jind_Singh
09-05-2011, 05:28
Either the boar boyz option, as noted above, OR the Spider Banner on a BSB

7 wide unit of gobbos with 1 character, 3 command figures, 1 BSB, 2 gobbos - the unit also conceals 3 skulkers.

Shoot the HPA with your poison - if your lucky you can boost their poison with magic.

Then if enemy does charge your gobbos you jump out the Skulkers and push the BSB back to the 2nd rank - works like a treat every time!

Don Zeko
09-05-2011, 13:36
Cauldron of Blood is effectively the same as frenzy for DE spearmen. Though its very rare you'd use it for that of course.

Surely the best way to counter a HPA is to kill it before it attacks. War Machines, fanatics, mangler squigs and fanatics.

Or maybe an orc warboss with impact hit armour on a chariot.

This is a fairly pointless quibble, but I give my spearmen +1 attack all the time. When you're banking everything on that crucial Mindrazor, you want even more attacks so that you can be sure to delete the unit you're fighting in one round.

GreySeerZ
10-05-2011, 19:55
You don't. You take the 10pt Banner of Eternal Flame. There really is no reason or excuse to ever come to the table without that Banner on one of your units. :) It is ONLY 10pts. The value gained if you face Regeneration cannot be calculated. The loss if you don't is still only 10pts. Take the damn banner.

This, I have yet to see an army without it (including my own) and I always field a mounted character with dragonbane/dragonhelm to counter it :evilgrin: